Sexual Health is Mental Health & Challenging Herpes Stigma For Black Men with Courtney Brame | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: mentions of suicide and suicidal ideation
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I am joined by the fantastic Courtney Brame.
Courtney Brame is one of the most important voices in sexual health and herpes destigmatisation. Courtney is the founder of Something Positive for Positive People, a sexual health platform taking the lived experiences of people who have been diagnosed with an STI and educating the public on how to navigate the stigma that comes with it. Courtney is such a crucial activist in improving how we approach sexual health and, importantly, drawing attention to how herpes can massively impact people's mental health, as well as working to encourage more men to speak about sexual health, and educating the sex positive world on how conversations around STIs can be more intersectional for people of colour.
I wanted to have Courtney on the show as not only is herpes a topic that still needs so much destigmatizing but I was incredibly interested to talk about STIs and herpes with him from his perspective as a Black man, and how his identity impacts sex and relationships and vice versa. Courtney and I chatted all about why sexual health is mental health. He shared many interesting insights from an in depth study he did on the impact of those who have herpes and mental health. We spoke about the need for people with positive STI diagnoses to receive therapy, and the need to have more diverse voices in sexual health to challenge stigma across different communities. Courtney spoke about why there are so few spokespersons amongst Black men with herpes and the need for more Black men to speak up about having herpes and to challenge the stigma. We also chatted about the bias that exists in sexual health, what identity validating healthcare is and why it is so important. Courtney also gave some advice on how to approach disclosure and dating as someone who is herpes positive, as well as why he wants healthcare professionals to be more educated and forthcoming when discussing the impact of positive STI statuses on sexuality. I really enjoyed my chat with Courtney as he brought up so much expert insight into the connection between sexual health and mental health and really highlighted just how much being STI positive can challenge people's mental wellbeing.
Please note that we do briefly mention suicide in this episode.
And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify: it is really appreciated. And I'm very excited for you to listen to this episode. Here is Courtney Brame.
Hannah Witton
Courtney, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to get into all of the brilliant work that you do.
Courtney Brame
Thank you. I appreciate you having me and bringing me on.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So how did you come to do what you do? And also, could you tell us a little bit about Something Positive for Positive People.
Courtney Brame
So I have mapped out the introduction, and it takes me 30 minutes to go through from start to finish. So what I'll do is I'll give you like brief touch points that were very influential in having directed me to this point. So it starte - I actually went back and looked up because I hadn't known for a while what day it was that I was diagnosed with herpes or had my symptoms. So it was March 28 2013 that I sent a text to someone that I thought I might have gotten it from. A Facebook message. The message was, "Hey, can you talk - can you call me?" And I was like, yep, that was the day.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you see that and you were like - and you're like, you knew. And you were like, that's what that was about.
Courtney Brame
That's when that day was. And so that happened. And I went through about four years from there just navigating the stigma in my own way, disclosing to partners and not disclosing to partners at that period of time. And then eventually I stumbled into a dating site that was tailored to people who have herpes. And so I got -
Hannah Witton
Does that still exist?
Courtney Brame
It does, yes, it exists. And I used it at that point in time, of course, to date. And having removed the obstacle of having to disclose my herpes status and worry about a negative response - that made me into the kind of person that I really liked seeing myself as. So in that space, while I'm dating, I'm having a great time, I also found that in some of the blogs, forums, and support groups that were out there, there were people who said that they wanted to kill themselves because of their herpes diagnosis. And seeing that enough times was enough for me to think, okay, like, what is it here that's going on.
So I began to ask different people who were - I was connected to who were living with herpes and at an okay place with their diagnosis, if they'd be open to having a conversation with me, letting me record it, and then sharing it with the people who were most struggling because at that point in time, I was in my late 20s, a Black man. And I didn't have the same experience that I could relate to someone who might have been older and white, or younger and Hispanic, or from any sort of a different cultural background. So me saying "It's not that bad" or "it'll be okay" doesn't carry near as much weight as it does, having some sort of representation from their cultures, communities in ways that more so are similar than what my presence has to offer.
So after I started these interviews, every time I shared, more and more people wanted to get involved. So what I thought would have been maybe a monthly interview, turned into sometimes three, four interviews in a day.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Courtney Brame
And then I began to go ahead and download a podcast feed. And that was the birth of Something Positive for Positive People, where, as a podcast, I began to just share these experiences. People used like a different first name or something like that. So it was safe for people to come on, and then share their experiences and talk about aspects of living with herpes from the point of their diagnosis to the point of disclosing their status to partners, and then everything in between that, navigating symptoms and dealing with herpes jokes. And, you know, the mental health effects that come up as a result. So that is the Cliff Notes version -
Hannah Witton
I appreciate that.
Courtney Brame
- of how we got to the point of it becoming a nonprofit. So now as a nonprofit, what Something Positive for Positive People has been doing is paying for people to get therapy if they're struggling with herpes stigma. So that has been something that has been able to be offered since 2020.
Hannah Witton
Amazing.
Courtney Brame
And from there, I want to say we've gotten about 50, at this point, 50-ish - a little bit more than 50 people in and out of therapy. So the way that it works is I've negotiated rates with - there are two therapists in my network who serve Georgia and Missouri. And fortunately, that's where a majority of the people who have reached out to me have been from, who was struggling and these are two very like conservative states. So being able to connect them to a therapist that is sex positive and aligns with what their challenges are, being able to support them, this has been something I find to have been useful for people.
And at this point where we are with Something Positive for Positive People is going into the medical community directly, and advocating for identity validating, anti-stigmatising, sex positive healthcare by offering practice scenarios for a clinician, a nurse practitioner, whoever would deliver an STI test or diagnosis. We want to give them practice working with people who might not fall under the assumed identities of cisgendered, heterosexual, and monogamous. So to get healthcare providers comfortable speaking the sex positive language with someone who's comfortable sharing or who might be uncomfortable sharing. So making it to where they have practice with this spectrum of different identities, and also getting them on board with being able to offer and provide, at bare minimum, a little bit of useful sex education for people who might come in for testing or treatment, or people who may bring their partners in. How'd I do? How'd I do, timewise?
Hannah Witton
That was amazing. And I have like so many follow up questions because you touched on so many different things that I want to talk to you about. I guess like, the first big one is like the mental health aspect. And like why do you think it's important to talk about sexual health and mental health together? And also specifically, what is kind of like some of the misconceptions or stigma about that, specifically with Black men?
Courtney Brame
All right, I heard three questions in that so I'm going to do my best to answer all three. So, in my findings, sexual health is mental health. In 2019, I conducted a survey of people who listened to the podcast, and these are all people who have tested positive for herpes. And what I found was that 98.98% of the people who took the survey, they experience - this was self labelled depression. So at that time, I didn't have the language for what I needed to be asking but these were all people who said that they felt depressed. 48-ish percent of people self harmed. 25% of people had suicidal ideation and 6% of people attempted suicide. So looking at those numbers was probably my first eye opening aha moment for just really how interconnected sexual health and mental health are.
And I mean, looking at what a lot of people's drivers are toward a relationship, like, I think that we're at a place where we're recognising a need to uncouple sex from intercourse, and then sex from pleasure, and then sexuality completely to be divorced from or to be seen as something that intercourse is a part of. I think that a lot of the sex education that we received up until the point of adulthood and dealing with the community that I deal with, people who have tested positive for an STI, or people who are sexually active and dating people who have herpes or having navigate those kinds of discussions, we have not been equipped with aspects of sexuality.
So what I mean by that is that there are aspects of navigating relationships that we weren't given along with our sex education. So things like consent, boundaries, being able to say no, being able to hear a no and navigate rejection in a way that is ethical and healthy, being able to recognise green flags for healthy relationships and identifying potential for abusive relationships, not just in intimate settings, but your friend relationships. And also most important in relation to people navigating an STI diagnosis, is the ability to seek support and know that a support is available to you. Because so many people will struggle alone and in silence and that therefore make things so much worse for them. And so being able to know, okay, here's where I can go for support. This is something that can help really dissolve some of the mental health effects of an STI diagnosis would bring on a person. And also our identities are so interconnected with our sexuality, like, think about how we have this precious gem that is our sexuality, and it's so pure, and the minute we get an STI diagnosis, it just comes in and it shatters that. What we hold so dear, in that sense, is our sexuality. But we've attached so much of our identities to that. So that diagnosis comes and our identity is shattered, we're left with having to put these pieces back together of who we are. And that is a process.
Hannah Witton
There's so much in that, especially with STIs, around like the type of person who gets one or doesn't and all of those myths. And so yeah, it really is tied to like your sense of self and who you think yourself to be. And if you've like, absorbed all of these messages around 'this type of person gets an STI.' And you're like, "Well, that's not me," and then you do, it shatters that gem.
Courtney Brame
Yes. Yes.
Hannah Witton
That gem that doesn't really exist anyway.
Courtney Brame
Yeah, and I mean - I got jokes, but I wouldn't - let me keep this very professional here for now.
Hannah Witton
You're allowed to joke here!
Courtney Brame
Oh, so the third part of your question, which is, I believe navigating this as a Black man, is there is very little if any representation of people - of Black men. I'm seeing more Black women emerge in the space and that is phenomenal. But there's just not many men, period. And then Black men - as far as I know, I'm the only one. And if you hear about a Black man who has herpes, it's usually a negative context. Maybe if there's like a celebrity who's been accused of giving someone herpes, or in the context of like, there was a UFC fighter in America who said something about having a herpes outbreak before his fight and that ended up going viral. That was the extent of it. And he later came out and was just like, "Yeah, I just said that because marketing." I was like, "Alright, well, here I go back to just being me now."
Hannah Witton
Oh wait, so he didn't have herpes?
Courtney Brame
No, he never said he didn't. He said "I had a herpes outbreak" Two herpes outbreaks, I believe, is what the soundbite says, I can send it to you if you want to check it out. But I didn't want to feed into it or give it any more attention. Because people got so excited. They were like, "Oh my god, look at this Black man talking about herpes.£ And it's like, "Give it a minute. Give it a minute. Let's see what happens." And sure enough, that's what it later ended up coming back to be.
Hannah Witton
I'm curious as well, like you mentioned in your bit about what Something Positive for Positive People do is the identity validating healthcare. So how does that like - kind of why is that so important? And then how does that work with kind of all of these things around identity and sexuality and mental health? Because when I think about times when I've been to STI clinics and needed care, like I fit all of these assumed boxes that they would, so this is not something that I have experience with, but like what, what are those barriers that are there? And once again, I've just thrown like three in one questions at you.
Courtney Brame
No, it's okay, we'll do our best to work through it. One of the barriers is bias. There's a lot of just internalised bias that people all have. And even in the healthcare field. Yes, these are people who are literally saving people's lives and easing pain. And they're doing so to the best of their ability with very limited often, you know, non accessible resources. And so, being able to first give them practice with having that bias come up in a safe space that's low risk, because it is with a simulated experience with a patient - this allows for them to bring it to the surface, be aware of it, because a lot of times we just don't have people who call us out. Or we may be in a space where like patient-provider interaction, there's a power dynamic there, where the patient is looking to the provider to lead. And the provider needs things from the patient in order to provide the optimum level of care. I saw a statistic that said 70 something percent of providers don't talk to their patients about sex, and high 60, maybe 68%, of patients don't initiate conversations with their healthcare provider about sex. So we're looking at 20/30ish% of people who are having conversations with their - between patients and providers. But like, even if you look at what the misfires of that communication could be, you know, how do we increase that number to where more dialogue is occurring between a provider and a patient?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I remember I was doing some research into inflammatory bowel disease and sexuality because I have ulcerative colitis. And there were, like, questions that they put to healthcare providers about do you bring up sex and relationships, you know, with your patients, and it was just like a vast majority did not. And there's all sorts of reasons for it. But one of the main ones was that they felt like they lacked knowledge. Or they felt awkward, like, asking as well. And you know, these are doctors. And even if they're not sexual health doctors, you're still just like - sexuality intersects with so many different areas of our health that you would hope that in a lot of different healthcare situations, things like relationships would get brought up. Like, how is this medication that I'm taking, or how is this diagnosis in something completely separate, like, how is this going to impact my sex life? Yeah,
Courtney Brame
Yeah. And last year, I conducted a survey. This one had a lot more people. This one was 11,049 participants total. And one of the questions that I asked was: when you left the health care facility after your diagnosis, or after your follow up call where you got your diagnosis, did you receive resources that were useful to you? And a lot of people said no. So I asked, you know, where did you find the most useful information? 8% said that they got the most useful information from their healthcare provider. 68% of people said that they got their most useful information from social media. So the least credible resource, people's opinions on social media, is the most popular space for people getting their education.
So like, we're sort of - I'm noticing that there's more like a secondary or tertiary level of education that's occurring through entertainment. So social media people who, you know, do the TikTok dances and everything and then have like a fact or some facts there.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Courtney Brame
You're being entertained, but you're also consuming that educational material. So another part of my work is making an effort to come up with some sort of an intervention that allows for the credibility of sexual health organisations and clinicians, healthcare providers, to be paired with social media influencers, because I get people who ask me all the time, is this an STI? Is this herpes? What do I do about this? And it's like, I love that you feel like you can come to me. However, I am not qualified to give you the kind of information that you're asking of me, I have to tell you go to the doctor. And then I kind of just sneak in there, like, here are some useful things that I can offer you.
Hannah Witton
I relate to this so hard. I really do. Yeah. The amount of times I've had to reply to people to be like, "This is out of my area of expertise. Please go see a doctor."
Courtney Brame
Yes. But the thing about that, too, is that doctors don't feel safe to some people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Courtney Brame
I can't tell you how often people have been dismissed. And I think that it is because the healthcare providers just don't have the information, they don't have the time. There's so many different factors that play a role and also like the insignificance of a sexually transmitted infection versus someone who has a bone coming out of their skin, or who's like vomiting violently, you know, there are just like, right here in my face priorities that they have. And to us, you know, the general public, if you tell me that I have an STI, like, that becomes my bone sticking out of the skin or violent puking. Like, that is where my priority is in that moment, like, this is the most important thing to me right now. I don't care about what else you have going on.
But one thing that I would say to combat that, like, the fact that healthcare providers don't necessarily have all the information is, upon diagnosis delivery, there's two main things that people are concerned about after they get any STI diagnosis. One is, when is the pain gonna go away? Or how do I alleviate the symptoms? So being able to offer to your patient, "Hey, you know, do you have any questions" - because a lot of times people will say no, and then they'll go home and Google everything instead of just asking their healthcare provider. So to be able to offer, here's our options for medication, just take this medication and then the symptoms will disappear. Or if it's chlamydia, syphilis, gonorrhoea, whatever the treatment is for those things. And then with herpes, offering the option of this will treat your outbreak, and if you want, we can go on to a daily suppressive medication that you can take on a regular basis to minimise your outbreaks, if you are someone who ends up having multiple outbreaks.
And then the second thing is how do I tell my partner? How do I disclose to someone that I have herpes? And obviously, I would love for the doctors to just be like, "Oh, go visit Something Positive for Positive People at www.spfp.org." But realistically, you know, the short answer of that is it's not disclosing to their most recent partner that they had sex with, but it's often "I'm sexually active with someone or going to be, and I need to be able to tell them moving forward." Offering -
Hannah Witton
Future disclosures.
Courtney Brame
Yeah, so being able to offer up like when is the best or most appropriate time to bring up sexual health and talk about my status and I often tell people that it's really about when the conversation shifts between or when it goes from talking about sex in general to talking about sex with each other, because at that point, that's where you want to lay the foundation for the expectations because now expectations are happening, now that I know, "Oh, we're going to have sex together. It's going to be like this. We're not going to use condoms. We're going to do this position and we're going to do all these things."
Hannah Witton
How often do you think people go from talking about sex in general, to then talking about having sex with each other, to then having sex? Because I feel like a lot of people miss out the talking about having sex with each other stage.
Courtney Brame
You're right. Because even, especially before my diagnosis, there have been more times where sex has happened without even talking about sex, period. So it's almost been like, there's just this environment where you're conditionally responding to each other in a way that it's like, "We both know sex is going to happen, but we don't know how to communicate about that or talk about it. So we're just going into it." And it was for me after getting my herpes diagnosis that I had to start talking about sexual health. And then I had to start talking about sex. Because at that point, it became more of like an easing people into the topic of sexual health. And then like, also kind of, I don't know if you've ever - like, the best example I have is like tweezing a hair, and then you want to hurry up and put some pressure on it. So it is not like burning or itchy. Like it's a real quick, "Hey, STIs. How often do you get tested?" Blah, blah, blah, because it's an unsexy conversation. So to be able to smooth that over with a little bit of oh, you know, "Hey, this is - so here's what I see happening with us. Like, I like doing these things, like what are you into?" And then we can get into the conversation about what our turn ons and avoids may be.
Hannah Witton
I was actually gonna ask like, because like, I feel like this - from my perspective, as well, it they feels like the talking about sexual health is something that is like the woman's job to do especially in like heterosexual dynamics. So I can see why, like, they might experience it that way of like, "Wait, this man is like bringing this up?" That's really interesting. Yeah. Do you find that as well that it is like more expected that women bring up sexual health? And so when you do it, you get that kind of reaction?
Courtney Brame
And I model, like how I talk about sex from one of my board members, Dr. Evelin Dacker, who created the STARS talk. It's a safer sex talk for people, so STARS is an acronym. The first S stands for sexual health status. The T stands for turn ons. A for avoid. R is relationship intention. And then the second S is for safety. Not just like physical safety, but also emotional safety, social safety, cultural safety. So yeah, it's definitely something that historically has been skipped, the conversation as a whole. But now like, I like having that conversation, because it tells me now if we're compatible. If I'm going to have a good sexual experience with you, or if you're going to be laying there like a dead fish, just because like this is how you used to having sex like - but what I find as a man presenting that conversation or initiating it, a lot of women's minds have been blown. They've been like, "Nobody's ever asked me."
Courtney Brame
So I find that, in my experiences, a lot of the interactions have just been led by me in general. So being the person who is leading or initiating whatever the progressions are for having sex, like that's what I've historically had to do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, especially if you've already had the conversation about like what you do for a living.
Courtney Brame
Oh, man, that happens. Yeah. So that's, that's something we could talk about too, like how soon that conversation has to come up. And it's often way before I'm ready to have it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, I really took because I remember when I was dating, I mean, and this is the same with like, Uber drivers and stuff, I would often lie or avoid the topic of what I did. Because I just knew that then the question, the follow up questions, I wasn't ready for. I'm like, "I've just met you. That's too, too intimate."
Courtney Brame
Yeah. But to answer your question. Like before my herpes diagnosis, it was just like a matter of going down a path of how we just assumed that sex was supposed to be, how it was going to happen. And then after the fact, I realised in hindsight, that my way of knowing what my sexual health status was, was based off of a previous partner's status. So if she doesn't have anything. I don't have anything. So I don't have to go and get tested myself. This was someone that I was sexually active with, whether we did or didn't use barriers. It's like once she, "Yeah, I went to my OBGYN for my annual and I was all 'clean'." And I use air quotes when I say clean. Because that's language that we don't want to use anymore. But that was how I knew that I was able to move forward. And yeah, it's - a lot of the burden historically has been on women to, you know, maybe not even bring it up, but to just know what their status is, and then be able to say, "Oh, okay, good. I'm good for my partner." And that's how it's been navigated.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's interesting. Um, we've got some questions from folks on Instagram, and then also from some of our Patrons. So, this is kind of what we've been talking about. But somebody has asked: any tips for bringing up testing with a new partner? And the best way to start a conversation with your - with your, with your male other half / family members / friends about STIs. So just men in their life, bringing up a conversation of sexual health.
Courtney Brame
Okay. So these are people who you might not be having sex with? Is that correct?
Hannah Witton
No, yeah, it seems that it, yeah, could be having sex with but also just like generally having this conversation with men in their life.
Courtney Brame
Well, first off, having an understanding about how you feel about your diagnosis and your status change. Because you could, if you're not ready, do more harm to yourself than good. So if you are not at a place where you've accepted your diagnosis, please don't go out looking for acceptance, because it's going to come from a place of wherever you are emotionally. And if that's frantic and afraid, then you're going to make other people think that they need to be frantic and afraid of it. So if you -
Hannah Witton
Because people mirror.
Courtney Brame
Yes, it's all about - it's that mirroring. So if you finally do get to a point where you feel comfortable talking about it and you just want some support, understand that sexual health is mental health, and the way that you are viewing yourself from a lens of your sexuality, like that's one very laser, narrow, focused scope, on your identity. And there's so much more to it than that. You just really need a reminder of who you were 10 seconds before you had your first symptoms, or before you had your first suspicion or before you got your diagnosis. And that's where that identity validation comes in. Just being able to initiate a conversation that's like, "Hey, you know, I'm really struggling with something. Here's how I'm feeling about myself. And I know that it is because I tested positive for herpes. And I know that it's just a virus that doesn't really impact me physically." If that's the case, you can go into as much detail as you'd like. But really just being able to let that person know that you know where you stand with it. And then when you're at a comfortable place, let them know what you are asking for of them, and then be able to just articulate it and be ready to answer any questions that may come.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, that's, yeah, that's really good advice. This one I found really interesting. Somebody asked: would you advise people to put their STI status in their bio on dating apps? And if so, does this also help when people who are negative share their status to normalise it? And yeah, 'cause this person said that they can't work out if by, sharing your negative status, that is in some way, actually, like, I don't know, doing more harm than good. The same way that you know why we don't use the term clean anymore when it comes to STIs. Like, "Look, I'm negative," and you're like blasting that just social media. But is it also useful for people who are positive to put it on their social media? What's, what's the done thing here?
Courtney Brame
Okay, so -
Hannah Witton
Not social media; dating apps. That's what I'm talking about. If you want to put it on your social media, go for it.
Courtney Brame
I mean, I did it! So I love this question. And the answer is simply put, saying something about like normalising testing. I see very often on dating apps 'I'm tested for STIs frequently' or this often. The frequency -
Hannah Witton
Ooh, yeah, yeah. That's a good way to get around it because you'd be like, "I test regularly" is something that you could put in your dating bio, without being like, "I'm clean" again, with the scare quotes.
Courtney Brame
Yes. And so for me because I've done this on different apps, like there's a dating app that is more hookup, non monogamous, like you can be more clear about what your intentions are, that isn't on the trajectory of like of have like, relationship marriage, have kids get the house, right? On those apps, and when I present my status upfront, two things happen. One, I know I get way fewer matches, way fewer connections, than I normally would. The other thing is that the people that I matched with, they may not have that they have herpes in their bio or their profile, but like, I'll later find out that they also have herpes. And there's also the people who don't read your bio, you still deal with that, too. But it's all just like dating, like even dating with herpes, I say this often, that dating where herpes is just like dating. There's not really much of a difference. Like, would you put that, "Oh, I have a kid" on your dating profile. Or would you put that "I'm conservative" or that "I believe these things"? Would you put all of that onto your profile? Because I mean, those bits of yourself, all of these things can potentially bring your people closer to you or keep certain people away. You know? It's really about where your identity is tied to. Someone pointed this out to me, a friend of mine, who she saw my profile, and I was like, "Yeah, what do you think?" And she was like, "Well, you already said that you have herpes." And then like, there were other points where things about my work were included. So it looked like I have herpes, I talk about herpes, herpes herpes herpes And she gave me this analogy, she was like, "That would be like, you know, I have a son. Here's a picture of me and my son. Me and my son are going to do this." And I was like, "Damn, you make a very good set of points." So -
Hannah Witton
You're almost being like, overly, like, cautious, by like doing all of the disclosing so people won't be like surprised or like, have a bad reaction later down the line, kind of thing.
Courtney Brame
You're more so pigeonholing yourself into being seen as that. Like, if you're not living your life, or showing yourself doing all these other different things, and this isn't the most important thing to you, you're essentially telling the world that this is all you are about is that you have herpes, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that you are your diagnosis, which is not the case.
Courtney Brame
And so being able to expand more on that. And it comes down to looking at these different aspects of your identity, and not being so laser focused on the herpes piece like okay, well, what else is there about you that I could like? Give me more than that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because, yeah. There's that fear that the herpes thing is all that anyone is going to like fixate on but actually, like, there might be a whole other things about you that they're going to be super interested in.
Courtney Brame
Exactly. And we got to show those. And we got to really just be confident in all of these other areas of our identities and lean into it so that we can put it out there to the world, so that we can find our people or our person, whatever it is someone's looking for.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if you haven't disclosed on a dating app, or you're not using dating apps, what kind of advice would you give to people when it comes to disclosing, like IRL, in like, on a date, in those kinds of situations?
Courtney Brame
Yeah, in real life disclosing I think there's some things to take into consideration, are, you know, just like with the previous advice given is understanding how you feel about it. So if you are ready to get back out there and have sex and pursue relationships, it's very important that you are comfortable with initiating or having this conversation about your sexual health. And I think that so often we look at our STI status as being so laser focused on intercourse. There are so many ways to be sexual with a person and have like that kind of an exchange. I look at the kink and BDSM community, you know, there's plenty of people around me who they have herpes and don't need to disclose their status for something like spankings or being tied up, right? There's not going to be that contact with the area that is affected, then there's no need too. So also, you know, knowing what it is that you want with the person that you're disclosing to, and is this someone who's earned the right to that information? Because not everybody is. And if you are able to have that STARS talk, like you don't have to have it in that order that I gave, you can lead with relationship intention. What do you want? Do you only want a one time thing? Is this going to be full time? Is this going to be sexual?
Hannah Witton
Do you just want a spanking partner?
Courtney Brame
Exactly. So yeah, if you want the - if your turn ons and avoids don't match up, you're not even gonna have sex with this person? Or if you do, you know it's gonna be bad. So why bother going any further into the discussion? So yeah, like find out if you like the person, find out if you're on the same page, and then you can go into it with something as simple as, "Alright, well, you know, I see things progressing a little bit, and I want them to go in this direction. I'm attracted to you, I'm turned on by you. And if you're feeling the same way, like, let's go ahead and start this conversation. What are some things that you like? Okay." And then you get into it, and then you can move through, "Well, I get tested for STIs every six months, three months, between new partners. I like to use condoms because I tested positive for herpes." I haven't had any symptoms in... I don't know how many years.
Hannah Witton
And I feel like a lot of the disclosure conversation, especially when it comes to herpes, you're also like having to educate the other person?
Courtney Brame
More often than not, yes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because there's so many myths about it.
Courtney Brame
Yes. And the people that - depending on where - if you're reading in people that are - you like, that are easy to talk to, this should be an easy conversation, because they'll be like, "Oh, well, yeah, I've been having sex for a while. And I know that I've had partners who do have herpes." Or that they may need a little bit more information, they may want to know if you're on medication. And these are further pieces of information that will tell you if this is someone that you're sexually compatible with, based on their communication. How well and how mature are they handling this and communicating with you? Because if they aren't willing or able to talk about something like this, then how often have they not been talking about it with their other partners? So yeah, this is something that can contribute to a pleasant sexual experience with someone if you are comfortable enough with navigating the conversation accordingly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. This person's next question kind of takes us back to the mental health conversation. But also feel free to say that - if this is out of your area of expertise. But this person has asked: do you have any tips for staying in touch with your sexuality when antidepressants cause a low sex drive?
Courtney Brame
Oh, I will say that this is out of my area of expertise but it's not out of my range of perspective.
Hannah Witton
Mm. Oh, I love that.
Courtney Brame
I think something very helpful to people that I know who've been on SSRIs, I believe.
Hannah Witton
RIs, yeah.
Courtney Brame
Okay, yes, I said it right! Something that they do is something as simple as schedule sex, if you are partnered, like, give yourself that to look forward to as well as masturbating. I said masturbating, like an old person. Masturbating.
Hannah Witton
Masturbating is good for you.
Courtney Brame
Like it's two separate words. But yeah, being able to do that, I mean, like, look at yourself, be attracted to yourself. And, you know, there's this whole movement around what self care is, and like I tell people too, you know, self care is actually identity care. In what ways are you being validated as a person, as who you are, as the things that you have your identity attached to? Like, for me as an example, I watch anime, I like to watch rap battles, I like to work out, I practice yoga. These are all things in addition to - cooking, I enjoy cooking. I care for my body, like these are things that I have my identity more so attached to.
Hannah Witton
And they're like they're specific to you as well, like, you often see so much advice about self care, and it's really generic and it doesn't quite, it doesn't quite nail the purpose of it. Like what you're saying, where like it has to be identity validating, like, it has to be nourishing for you specifically.
Courtney Brame
Yeah, because like I see people who take bath bombs and like are like "self care." It's like, no, you're taking a bath like you - that's something you that you do.
Hannah Witton
I don't like baths! Doesn't work for me.
Courtney Brame
Yeah, same thing with like, going for a walk? No, you're going for a walk. Right? So what about your identity is being validated in drinking wine like, "Oh, I am a wine drinker." Like if that's how you view yourself, like you're a wine connoisseur, and you feel that that is something that revitalises you and energises you more than it does leave you hungover the next day and unproductive, then that can be part of your identity, but I hope that there was something in there who that can support this person and just understanding that in order to remain connected to their sexuality, despite being on anti-depressants, that these are some things that you can do: give yourself something to look forward to, in relation to exploring your sexuality.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I think this kind of comes back to what we were saying earlier about health care professionals and bringing up the topic of sex, because if you feel like you can, with your doctor, whoever is the one, like, prescribing you your antidepressants, like, it is absolutely within your right to say, "Hey, these are affecting my sexual desire, my sex drive." And maybe a part of your identity is like your sex life. And those things are really important to you. And so is there a different medication you can try? Is there a different dosage that you can try? And there's old conversations to have with your doctor. But again, it's kind of like what I was saying before about like, not all doctors will, like, bring that up on and not all patients, like, feel confident enough to do that as well.
Courtney Brame
I am very much appreciative of our healthcare people. They do a great job of, you know, you come in with a problem, here's the solution, here's a pill for it, right? Where we are able to bridge a little bit of a gap in communication, like, right there, is if they were able to say, "Well, have you tried using sex toys? Have you tried masturbating?" Like, these are the kinds of solutions that seem very inappropriate, but are effective, and they'll leave that healthcare facility and they'll go on social media and look up sex and antidepressants, and they'll find an everyday person who's like, "Yeah, if you masturbate, these are things that can help." Blah, blah, blah. So again, this might be useful information, but it's not coming from the credible resources. And part of it could be, "Well, it's not my job to talk about sex." But it kind of is especially from a health component.
Hannah Witton
I think as well, because we live in a society that is often so fearful of sex, so we just like don't talk about it. A lot of healthcare professionals like think that it would be inappropriate for them to bring it up. They're like, "Oh, no, I can't do that. That would be - that'd be wrong. Like, you know, that's not healthy." Or whatever. And it's like, "No! It will help people."
Courtney Brame
And when healthcare providers can also get it, that sexual health is mental health, I think what that will do is present like when people do come in and have questions about sex, they're not going to look at them and go, "Oh, you shouldn't be - you should only be having sex to get married, or when you're making babies." We got to get them out of that. Because again, like sex and intercourse are so tied up with one another, from their perspective, but when we can start to look at people for, like the self care, or the mental health benefits that they're getting out of being able to explore and express their sexuality, I think that'll shift the way that doctors are able to speak about sex in a way that is more so about pleasure, that is more so tied into how a person is having a healthy relationship with their mind, with their mental health, and with their bodies. So yeah, I believe that we can make this happen.
Hannah Witton
Yes, indeed. Um, someone asked: in a time when there's lots of focus on women owning their sexuality, do you ever feel like there is pushback on being a man in the sexuality space? I'm curious.
Courtney Brame
How deep you want to go with this? I have a simple answer -
Hannah Witton
I mean, as deep as possible.
Courtney Brame
Okay. That's what she said. Ha ha.
Hannah Witton
Because also, obviously, you have identities that aren't as represented as well. So like, you're at that kind of like intersection of like, you're a man, but you're also a Black man. And so yeah, how do you feel having a voice in this in this sex positive space, the sex positive world?
Courtney Brame
I guess what speaks to me right now is that like, I personally, like, I love sluts. So like, the whole sexual empowerment thing. Like, that's my shit. So as far as the oppression of women's sexuality goes, like, I don't think that me as a Black man would have ever been someone who was like, "No, don't do that. "Like, I like somebody who's experienced. Like have experiences. bring them to me. Let's do this. Do I personally feel like my sexuality is like repressed as well? Yes, I do simply because it feels like initiating or pursuing sexual relationships with women in a time of social media where I am seeing so much of that, like I'm seeing so much, you know, women's pleasure, we need to prioritise our own pleasure and all of those kinds of things, it almost makes me feel a little bit like, "Hmm. So should I just like, wait on y'all to be okay with this? And then like, "Hey, I'm here, you ready yet?"" You know, but there's this, like this animalistic - I think it's called primal. Like, that's like, one of the archetype things that I've experienced with taking these, like tests or whatever about what's your sex style. And so like -
Hannah Witton
I love those kinds of quizzes!
Courtney Brame
They're the best, right? And then they give you language to be able to communicate, like, how you are, what you're looking for, and, you know, what you are offering to the experience.
Hannah Witton
Definitely a fun thing to do with sexual partners.
Courtney Brame
I send the test to everybody like, "Hey, take this. Get back to me."
Hannah Witton
"Tell me your sexual archetype, thank you very much."
Courtney Brame
Right? So, yeah, like not having, like, I'm seeing and hearing so many women are like, "Yeah, this is, this is where we're headed. This is where we want to be, this is where we are." Whereas for me as a Black man, like, I'm looking on this space, I'm like, "Okay, where's mine? Like, how am I supposed to feel?" And I really struggled with that for a while. And by a while, I mean, up until like, maybe a couple of weeks ago, when I realised, "Oh, I don't need to look for the information. Like I just can trust myself to just show up the way that I show up."
Hannah Witton
Oh, this is fresh.
Courtney Brame
So there's been like this pressure of wanting to be like the kind of man that the women who are saying that they're working to evolve into being, like, wanting to match that when, you know, there's somebody for that. And then there's somebody for me just being the way that I am, like I said, earlier with asking women, "Hey, what do you like?" And then their heads exploding, like, "Does not compute, I can't answer that." Like, there's just an intuitive knowing that if I just trust myself, and know that consent is being obtained, intentions are being clear and set, then I'm able to move forward with the people that I'm supposed to move forward with. So all of that to say, like, I just, I don't have anything out there that relates to me so I have to define it by myself by uncoupling my expectations on me, the standards that I have, away from things that just don't serve me. So like, it doesn't serve me to try and be like someone that I'm not. It serves me to understand who I am, and then learn to be able to communicate that to the rest of the world.
Courtney Brame
Yeah. And I also think a lot of that messaging about, like, female sexual empowerment, like, it also doesn't serve every woman. It's, it's just impossible to. And so I think like what you're describing, and I have no idea if I've heard this term somewhere, and I'm just taking it now, or if it's something that I'm just gonna be like, yes, I am coming up with this. But what it sounds like you're describing was like sexual authenticity, where it's that it's authentic to you. It's not necessarily like just this blanket 'this is what sexual empowerment looks like. And here's all the tick boxes of how to become sexually empowered, or how to be a good lover' and like all of those things. But ultimately, we all need to be aiming to be sexually authentic, because for some people, it might be like not having sex at all, or not being interested in sex at all as well. That's what it sounds like you're describing.
Because I mean, living for other people's expectations, especially how I present myself, you know, some people look at me and are like, "Damn, look at this big, statured, cut, strong man, who's going to just like, throw me around the room and do all these things to me aggressively." And sometimes, maybe I just want to cuddle, you know? Like, maybe I just want to, I want my face sat on, you know what I'm saying like, we can have these moments like, "Yeah, I can do that too. But like, don't limit me into this box or this bubble, when there's so much more versatility to what my sex game looks like." So, yeah,
Hannah Witton
Especially when there's a lot of stereotypes as well about sex and Black men. Like, there's a lot to kind of, like have to push against.
Courtney Brame
And what sucks is that like, I know it and I'm like, "Oh, I want to do that thing. But I know it's expected so now I gotta actively tried not to want that thing." So there's also that component too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but I think it's the same like I relate in a way being a woman in that there's like things that women are expected to do. And it's like, "Oh, no, but if I was a good feminist, I wouldn't do that." But then I'm like, "Oh, but I want to do that though."
Courtney Brame
Yeah, same thing.
Hannah Witton
So yeah, I love that. Do you know what, I think this is a wonderful note to end it. Courtney, thank you so much. This has been a lovely chat. And where can people find more of you and your work online?
Courtney Brame
You can visit www.spfpp.org That's just Something Positive for Positive People website. You can find the website, you can find different articles and resources there as well for people who are navigating an STI diagnosis, primarily herpes. Most of my interviews are with people who are living with herpes. And you can also donate to the nonprofit, as I mentioned we do pay for people to get therapy or support them in being able to find a therapist on their own. And our most recent project is really aiming to get connected with healthcare professionals to give them the practice taking a sexual history with someone who may have identities that fall outside of the assumed cisgender heterosexual monogamous norm, as a way of allowing for healthcare providers to be more comfortable with initiating, leading, and facilitating conversations about sex with their partners, and this has a trickle down effect that is going to aim to proactively create an environment that is anti stigmatising. So these are all the things. I'm on Instagram at @_courtneybrame_. C O U R T N E Y B R A M E underscore.
Hannah Witton
Thank you. Yeah, and all of your links and everything will also be in the shownotes. So thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye!