Coming Out and Trans Men in the Media with Jackson Bird | Transcript
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Jackson Bird
This like cis, straight, girl who makes a lot of educational content for queer issues, and it was sort of my outlet.
Hannah Witton
I think not!
Jackson Bird
Yeah, exactly! I know, right?
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things, sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Welcome back. So recently I was in New York, and I had the pleasure, the privilege, of sitting down and having a chat with Jackson Bird, who is a YouTuber, and now author. And we sat, and we chatted about what it was like for him to publicly transition online. He'd been making videos on LGBTQ+ issues, and then, at 25, came out as trans. We talked about how, when he was younger, because of the lack of trans representation that he had seen, and that he had grown up with in Texas, he had different ideas about what it meant to be trans, and about what it is to be queer and trans, and what it was like for him to discover that that was possible, that you didn't have to pick between one or the other, you could be trans and queer. It was amazing to have just such a thoughtful and honest conversation. We chatted about being open about problematic past thoughts and opinions based on how you were brought up or where you grew up, and how people shouldn't be punished for maybe thinking one thing or another, if that was how they were raised, and it's about what you do going forwards after you learn that maybe those thoughts or ideas were wrong. We also discussed why it might be that off the top of my head, I can name several famous mainstream celebrity trans women, but I can't name any trans men of the same celebrity status, and what the difference in experience might be between trans men and trans women, and the reality of what it's like to have that lack of representation and where it comes from. And as well as all of that important stuff, we also had a good old natter about Harry Potter and Downton Abbey. So I hope you enjoy this episode. There will be links in the show notes to where you can find more stuff about Jackson and his book, Sorted, and I hope that you enjoy this episode.
Hannah Witton
We're in New York! And I'm with Jackson Bird.
Jackson Bird
Hello!
Hannah Witton
It's very exciting.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, so good to see you again.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you too. I feel like the last time I saw you was two years ago in New York.
Jackson Bird
Probably, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And now you have a book out.
Jackson Bird
I do, it's wild.
Hannah Witton
Please tell us about your book, Sorted.
Jackson Bird
Sorted, growing up, coming out, and finding my place. Erm, and so it is a memoir and kind of educational guide, it's got about 30 little sidebars of information. So it's about my story of coming to terms with my gender and figuring all of that stuff out but also a little bit about my life on YouTube, and being a professional Harry Potter fan.
Hannah Witton
And that's why it's called Sorted as well, is that like a nod to Harry Potter?
Jackson Bird
It is a little bit. It means a lot of things; it's a you know like sorted into genders, and also actually like the Britishism of like you always sort of say like sorted, like oh that's done, sorted.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
We don't really say that as much in America.
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay.
Jackson Bird
But I watch a lot of English TV so like that was my thought. But also just like sort it out, figuring it out, that kind of thing.
Hannah Witton
Okay yeah.
Jackson Bird
And then for any Harry Potter fans who get it, like yes, that was intentional.
Hannah Witton
Also, just like a nod to, what house are you in?
Jackson Bird
Gryffindor.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you were like, your face there was like, obviously.
Jackson Bird
That's how any Gryffindor answers!
Hannah Witton
Like how dare you ask me, you should surely know.
Jackson Bird
What about you?
Hannah Witton
A Hufflepuff.
Jackson Bird
Okay, I thought I've like seen that somewhere I thought.
Hannah Witton
It's just in all my bios online. Like Hufflepuff, Hufflepuff, Hufflepuff, just so everyone knows.
Jackson Bird
I literally say that in the book when I you know you have to like, in addition to having to explain all the like you know trans terminology, I have to explain some Harry Potter terminology because I talk about Harry Potter quite a bit.
Hannah Witton
Which is more complicated to do?
Jackson Bird
I mean, like which are you scared of getting called out for more; like from the Harry Potter fans, or from the LGBTQ+ community.
Hannah Witton
I think the LGBT+ community has the higher stakes.
Jackson Bird
Exactly. And it's like, it actually matters more.
Hannah Witton
Well, now the Harry Potter fans are going to come for us!
Jackson Bird
I know, exactly! There's no way for me to win this, but the point is, I was explaining you know what Hogwarts houses are and what the sorting hat is and stuff and I literally said, you will see in a lot of millennials like bio's on social media like INFJ, Hufflepuff.
Hannah Witton
So true, and pronouns as well.
Jackson Bird
Yes, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So please tell us a little bit about like your coming out story, because you came out when you're 25.
Jackson Bird
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Which, I don't want to say it's quite late because like everyone like comes out such different times and stuff.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, I feel like it is maybe a weird middle ground of like you've got all like the kids and the teenagers coming out and I see like on Reddit all the time, there's like 19 year olds who are like, it's too late to transition. It's not too late. It's not, you know. But then you've also got people in their 50s, 60s.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
Coming out and transitioning. So, yeah, 25 is, it's an interesting time. And it worked out well for me, because I was like, fully independent of my parents. And I think that makes it easier. You know, I get a lot of like, high school and college students asking me advice about still living with their families still, you know, being financially dependent on their parents and how to come out. And I'm just like, I'm like, sorry.
Hannah Witton
And it costs a lot of money to transition.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, exactly. Like I, I, you know, I talk a lot in the book that one, like one of the reasons that I was able to come out, you know, there was a long, long, long period of discovery, and confusion, and working through my mental health. But like, honestly, at that age, I had had a stable job for a few years, I had had a stable, stable living situation for a few years. My mental health, because of those things, and other elements was like, finally stable enough that I was able to tackle this huge thing and come out. And I mean, that in itself is a huge piece of privilege. But yeah, that is, I mean, that is sort of why I came out at that age, because I sort of needed to get to that place of stability.
Hannah Witton
So when did you know then? Was that also, like, when you came out yourself? Or -
Jackson Bird
Sort of, well, you know, you go back and forth. I mean, like, I, I have the very cliche like, oh, my earliest memories, like I knew I should have been, like, assigned male at birth. But you know, growing up, I went back and forth all the time. And I grew up in Texas, in the 90s and early 2000s. And there was not any LGBTQ+ education.
Hannah Witton
Sure.
Jackson Bird
Barely had any sex ed, even if you were cis and straight. So you know, just -
Hannah Witton
Good luck to you all.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, right. Like I saw, like an Oprah episode once, I saw some Adam Sandler movies, those had trans people in them. That was kind of my representation.
Hannah Witton
Okay, was that did Where did you learn about trans stuff, then?
Jackson Bird
Oprah.
Hannah Witton
Oprah.
Jackson Bird
One episode of Oprah, and then, you know, I think I heard the terms here and there, but like, everyone was always using incorrect, like conflated terminology all the time.
Hannah Witton
Sure, yeah
Jackson Bird
Um, it wasn't until college, when one of my classmates came out and started transitioning, that I was like, this is a thing?
Hannah Witton
Right.
Jackson Bird
Because she very much, she just posted a Facebook post and was like, you know, starting tomorrow morning, I'm using this name and pronouns, and I will be dressing this way, and presenting this way, and you will respect me as this. And I was like, wait, you can just tell people that? You can just do that? Like -
Hannah Witton
I mean, you have no control over how people react.
Jackson Bird
Well, true. Yeah. But I just always thought like, I had the very, very stereotypical, incorrect, assumption of being trans means you go in, like for a surgery overnight, and you come out and you are the other gender, and that's how it is. That was completely what I thought.
Hannah Witton
You were like, it's kind of like if back in the day, if you had an unwanted pregnancy, you'd like disappear for nine months, and then you come back. Yeah, like disappear, and then suddenly, like you're a new person.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, that whole plot on Downton Abbey. She goes away to France.
Hannah Witton
Where's the trans representation in Downton Abbey?
Jackson Bird
Well, you know what, I do have to say the movie.
Hannah Witton
I have not seen the movie.
Jackson Bird
So this isn't quite a spoiler for the movie. But yeah, it, have you seen the TV series?
Hannah Witton
Up to a point. Yeah, but yeah, go for it.
Jackson Bird
So there's there's a gay character on Downton Abbey.
Hannah Witton
What, what? No, yes, yes, I do remember.
Jackson Bird
Yes, Thomas. And in the movie, they focus a lot on that. And they teased it in the trailer, so I knew like oh, he's gonna get a kiss a guy, like cool that, you know, consensually never happened with Thomas. So very exciting. But then what was even better was they had this whole thing of sort of like, they showed him community, like he found community, and he got to talk about not feeling ashamed for the first time in his life. And I was like, oh my gosh, this just went so much further and deeper than I would have ever expected.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's nice. I just remember when I was watching the show, Thomas was kind of like an evil character. Yeah, he's he was like a bad guy.
Jackson Bird
He was a bad guy. Yeah, he's like one of the villains of the show. Yeah, he has some redemption arcs by the end of the series.
Hannah Witton
Okay, cool. Some gay redemption hugs. Love it. Yeah. So you were making videos online, before your transition, like before you came out. What was that like for you, transitioning publicly?
Jackson Bird
Yeah, I mean, it's it is funny to like, look back now and think that it was publicly because it was like, I had such a smaller following compared to now, and I still have a fairly small following. But you know, I mean, you put hardly anything on the internet and you get the consequences, good and bad. You get the attention of it. So yeah, I started posting videos in like 2007, just silly stuff with friends. But in 2011, I was chosen to be one of the sort of like intern, video bloggers for the Harry Potter Alliance's YouTube channel.
Hannah Witton
Oh, The Harry Potter Alliance!
Jackson Bird
Yeah, the Harry - for anyone listening who doesn't know what the Harry Potter Alliance is, it's a nonprofit that uses Harry Potter, and just the power of storytelling in general, to mobilise fans towards social action.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I raised money for them for my birthday because I did a Harry Potter marathon.
Jackson Bird
That's amazing.
Hannah Witton
I watched all eight films.
Jackson Bird
Oh my gosh, I was thinking like a running/walking marathon, not a watching the movies marathon. That makes more sense.
Hannah Witton
No, watching all eight movies. It was intense.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, wow.
Hannah Witton
I managed it, I would actually recommend it. It's really fun.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, I'm not, this is the most controversial thing I'm gonna say on this podcast.
Hannah Witton
Go, go, go
Jackson Bird
I'm not a huge fan of the Harry Potter movies. I'll watch them. I like get the magic in them a little bit. But yeah, I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough.
Jackson Bird
I like the books better. That is such a pretentious thing to say. But -
Hannah Witton
That is a legit opinion, that a lot of people have I think.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, we're, we can all have our opinions.
Hannah Witton
I'll allow it.
Jackson Bird
Thank you. Okay, now I feel better. No, but anyways, I was I was volunteering with the Harry Potter Alliance throughout college. I ended up working for them full time for five years. Um, but so I, they chose, like three of us who were in college, kind of be the face of their YouTube channel, because even back then, a lot of their partners were like major YouTube creators, stuff like that. So they were like, okay -
Hannah Witton
The was like Nerdfighteria
Jackson Bird
Exactly, John and Hank Green, all of the young adult authors too. So that was the first time that I sort of had a little bit of a following. Like it was, again, very small, but like people I didn't know following my social media, like caring what I had to say. So that was sort of how I got started having a bit of a following online. And I started sort of reincarnating my youtube channel off the back of having a following from the HPA, and on that channel, I started doing a lot of like, LGBTQ+ educational content. Because -
Hannah Witton
And at the time, you weren't out. Were you queer, or like?
Jackson Bird
Publicly, I was a cis, straight, girl, basically. But to sort of answer your earlier question, I had been figuring myself out. So ever since that, like peer in college came out -
Hannah Witton
You were learning about it
Jackson Bird
Yeah, I started learning it. And like, as soon as the shoe finally dropped on the fact that you could be both queer and trans, which for whatever reason was a huge hang up for me, then I was like, oh, and like, I was like, that's me. And once I saw what the options were for transitioning, like taking hormones, or having top surgery, or even just like binding and changing the name, changing your pronouns, I was like, yes, I want to do all of that. But also, I'm terrified, and don't know how to go about doing it. So it was really like at about 19 I figured out that I was probably a trans guy, and probably wanted to transition, but it wasn't till I was 25 that I actually came out and started transitioning.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
And in that time was when I started making YouTube videos, and started making a name for myself online, and garnering an audience who all knew me as this like, cis, straight girl who makes a lot of educational content for queer issues. And it was my sort of like outlet.
Hannah Witton
I think not!
Jackson Bird
Yeah, exactly! You know, I feel like there's just so often, when you see people who are like really great allies, and then eventually they come out.
Hannah Witton
Ah, yeah.
Jackson Bird
But also some great straight, cis, allies, too. But yeah, I it's so yeah, I was doing that. Because like, I was just reading so many books, and watching so many documentaries and YouTube videos, and like, consuming all this queer content, and didn't have an outlet for it. Because I was closeted in my personal life, and my public life. So I was just sort of, like, oh, I'll make these great ally videos. That ended up working, because then when I did publicly come out, like, my audience was very well educated.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love it.
Jackson Bird
You know they can handle trans people.
Hannah Witton
You're like, this is my name, these my pronouns, and your audience are like, got it.
Jackson Bird
Yep. Yeah, we're on board. Also, it ended up taking me so long that like, trans representation had skyrocketed so much by the time I finally came out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
I mean, the night that I called my dad to come out to them was literally the night that Caitlyn Jenner was doing her interview with Diane Sawyer, of like, the coming out interview. So it was like -
Hannah Witton
They were like, yes, I, okay, I understand this.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, like, everyone already had all these reference points where like, if I had come out even just two years earlier, when I had really seriously been wanting to, I think a lot of people would, it would have been a lot harder for a lot of people in my life to accept, they wouldn't have had those, like reference points in pop culture to understand.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like the really big figures.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I want to just circle back because I have a lot of questions about like, the representation like in mainstream media and stuff.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But I wanted to circle back to why do you think you didn't think that you could be trans and queer?
Jackson Bird
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Cause that's really interesting.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, well, it goes back to that Oprah episode I saw. Basically like it was an episode about transgender kids, mostly like trans boys. And so I was watching and just being like, oh my gosh, they all look like me, they're like saying these things I've always felt, this is amazing. And then at the end of it, Oprah asked one of the older boys like teenager, if he liked girls, and he was just like, sort of shy and was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I do, I have crushes on girls, and like, want to date them or whatever. And I was just like, no!
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay.
Jackson Bird
Cuz I didn't think I liked girls. I kind of did, but didn't realise it at the time. But like, I thought I just only liked boys. Because again, growing up in Texas, and like, you know, I definitely had an attraction to boys. I identify as bisexual now, but like, that wasn't a term I knew either back in Texas. It was just like, you like boys, you're like girls. I'm terrified of the idea of liking girls and ergo in that context, being gay.
Hannah Witton
And then if you are a boy, then you must fancy girls.
Jackson Bird
Exactly. Yeah. And so for I just for years, like, just conflated all of that. And it was like, well, like, if I were to be a trans man, the only option is liking women. And I don't know that I like women enough. And like, or I just knew that like, I definitely liked boys. So I guess.
Hannah Witton
So you have to pick between either being -
Jackson Bird
Like a male attracted, or -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like a straight girl, or, yeah.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, cuz I didn't think, and I just sort of was like, wow, I guess I was just cursed with being both gay and trans, and no one else in the world is, and like, I literally thought that I just had like these two, like, genetic curses on me or something. And I thought I was the only person in the whole world who was so unlucky. And then in college, you know, I heard a few things, and then went poking around the internet and discovered, wow, there's so many queer trans people, in fact, like a slight majority, probably.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I was gonna say, I think that might be, because obviously, there are still a lot of straight trans people.
Jackson Bird
Plenty of them, yeah.
Hannah Witton
But I do feel like, at least trans people that I know, most are queer.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And I was talking to a friend of mine, I was talking to them, and they kind of put it in a way where it's like, well, we've already had to, like, go through so much with our own gender, that almost like, I don't know, like it kind of, not making you like in a way, or forcing you. But it just just means you are maybe a bit more open minded about gender and attraction.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, that's exactly what I think it is. You know, I think and again, it's not for every trans person, but for a lot of us, I think it is exactly that of like, like, when you get to this point, you're like, what even is gender? Like, why, why would I even think it matters, when I'm thinking of who I'm attracted to at this point? But I say that from a place of a hugely bisexual bias. Oh, what was that there was some, oh, I was just gonna, you know, this whole, like confusion, because it does seem so silly in hindsight, because like, we were just saying, we know so many queer trans people, bi, pan, ace, trans people, any sexuality. But I bring it up, and it's one of the many things that if I weren't a public figure dedicated to educating, I would not bring up and I would just like, I would be embarrassed by a lot of the assumptions and like, things that I went through, because it's just like, because it does seem so silly in hindsight. But I know that a lot of other people have these misconceptions too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
And so I just want to be very open about the fact that like, I didn't like -
Hannah Witton
You thought these things, yeah
Jackson Bird
I thought these things, I learned from them, here's how I grew from them. I am still learning and growing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. 100%. I also think that's so important to talk about in this kind of like, cancel culture climate.
Jackson Bird
Yes, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Like, if you can, like, openly be like, these are things that I used to think, like, I don't anymore, I've like learned, like, but like, we all are a product of our environment. Not everyone has the same access to education, or information, or just like, whatever it whatever it may be.
Jackson Bird
Yeah. And I -
Hannah Witton
We tend to, like punish people for something that is not their fault.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think it's so good to sort of model that, so that we can see, and especially when I'm teaching people who have very little exposure to trans issues, like, it also, I think, puts us on a more even playing ground. I can get them to open up a little bit better when I'm like, yeah, I used to think this, or like, I still have trouble with people's pronouns sometimes, like, instead of just acting like, I have always been perfect. I am currently perfect. Like, you must be as perfect as me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think, if we're doing the whole, like, hey, let's be open about things that we don't always get, right. Um, one of the things that I do, in order to get round people's pronouns, and this is like related to people who have more than one pronoun, so they might use she and they, or they might use he and they, I just pick they. I can't actually flip flop between pronouns with someone, like in my head I just then like I pick out of the ones that they've offered to me, and then I just I'm like, I'm just gonna stick to this because otherwise I mess up, I'm gonna get confused. So I just kind of like I just do it that way.
Jackson Bird
Yeah. Well, I think it's good to know that about yourself. And I mean, that's something I also, not not that the burden should be on the trans person, but it is some advice that I give when people are sort of in that like, sometimes messy middle zone of like out to some people, not out to others. And it's like, if you know, someone, like if someone in your life that you want to be out to is not good with names or pronouns, like maybe don't have them be the one that's like, call me this pronoun in this space, and this pronoun in this other space, because there's some people who can handle that and can switch -
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah.
Jackson Bird
But a lot of people can't and like, you know, don't try not to take that personally and like just think strategically about people in your support system. But that's sort of ,that's getting to a whole other level.
Hannah Witton
I hadn't even thought about that. The like micromanaging of your gender.
Jackson Bird
There's so much like -
Hannah Witton
Depending where you are.
Jackson Bird
There's so much micromanaging that has to happen when you are coming out, or transitioning, or just handling like the different spaces in which you are out in, which is something that could be persistent throughout your entire life, not just the early coming out phase. Yeah, I think people from any marginalised community have all of these sort of, like, administrative skills that have, you know, you either have to learn or come naturally, because you have to use them in your personal life.
Hannah Witton
Sounds really sexy, you're like micromanaging, administration.
Jackson Bird
Oh yeah, you know. Listen, if there's one thing in my brand, it's sexy.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to talk about representation, like mainstream representation, of trans people, because maybe you can help me here. Because when I try and name famous trans people, so I'm gonna, sorry, disregard YouTubers. But I mean like, a household name.
Jackson Bird
Yes.
Hannah Witton
That like, someone who like isn't on the internet, and like looking for queer or trans content. Like, they like, Caitlyn Jenner, like Laverne Cox, they would like know their name. I can only name trans women.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I was just like, trying to find like, a household name, who is a trans guy, or even a non binary person, like, nope, can't find them. Why do you think that is? Or like, do you have any like, maybe like, household names that you can think of?
Jackson Bird
Probably not household names yet, but there are a lot of like, up and coming, you know, actors and TV writers right now who are trans men. Chella Man is about to be a superhero, in one of the DC shows which I'm so stoked about, because Chella is amazing. Well, Chella, I think, identifies as a trans man and genderqueer.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Jackson Bird
And Brian Michael, Brian Michael Smith, he's going to be in The L Word, which is very exciting. There's a number of other younger guys, who unfortunately, I always forget their names. You know, like they're not household names. I haven't seen like the one series that they're in, as much as I want to.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
Thomas Page McBee is an amazing screenwriter and author, who's really coming up, but you're right. You know, there are so few. I can't even remember all of their names because they're fairly obscure.
Hannah Witton
Most people probably wouldn't have heard of them.
Jackson Bird
No.
Hannah Witton
Whereas I feel like a lot of people could name maybe three to five trans women
Jackson Bird
Well, I mean, first of all, I think it's awesome that like the main trans women we can name, or main trans people in the spotlight that we can name, are trans women of colour, like Black trans women. I think that's pretty cool.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
But you're right.
Hannah Witton
Munroe Bergdorf, has she made it to the US?
Jackson Bird
Say her name again?
Hannah Witton
Munroe Bergdorf.
Jackson Bird
Oh, I've definitely heard of her.
Hannah Witton
She's a trans woman of colour in the UK.
Jackson Bird
Okay.
Hannah Witton
She's amazing. Follow her on Instagram.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, I'll have to go look at her instagram after this. The name definitely sounds familiar. But no, I mean, there's this like, you know, throughout at least modern history, but there's definitely, throughout history across cultures and time, there's precedent for this. But like, yeah, trans men have kind of always been a little bit more in the shadows.
Hannah Witton
Why do you think that is?
Jackson Bird
So I think there's a lot of possible factors. And it's not any one thing, in a vacuum. But there's kind of, you know, there's large elements of transmisogyny in this, in that mainstream culture, which is mostly controlled by cis people, are much more scandalised by the idea of, and I'm using so many air quotes here, but like, yeah, a man who wants to be a woman.
Hannah Witton
Yes. Trans women are hugely, like, victimised and -
Jackson Bird
Completely.
Hannah Witton
In the way that the media talks about them -
Jackson Bird
It's all like yes, salacious and scandalous and -
Hannah Witton
Whereas, I don't think the mainstream media is threatened by trans men.
Jackson Bird
Exactly. The patriarchy is not as threatened by the idea of trans men, because it's kind of like, oh, you want why would you want to give up your privilege, and be lesser, be a woman versus like gaining privilege as a man, even if we don't really think that you're a man, and like, all of this is completely bullshit, like patriarchy, misogyny stuff that of course, no one's sitting at this table, or probably listening to this podcast, agrees with. But we're talking about, like, how culture, the culture in power has treated and why we've gotten here. And that has sort of just led to, in the medical sphere, in the like research sphere, and all in all kinds of different spheres, trans men being discounted. In the US, when trans people were finally getting access to psychiatry, and then off of the back of that, you know, medical treatment -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
Which was messed up in so many ways, and it was another case where like trans women had access, but they were treating, being treated in very terrible ways, and being victimised, and all that sort of thing. But trans men kind of didn't even get access most of the time. And one reason was because it was very expensive. So again, it also was mostly white trans women, from privileged backgrounds, getting access but trans men, living as women, probably did not have their own incomes streams, and couldn't even afford, or get access to those services.
Hannah Witton
Yes, yes.
Jackson Bird
Right. So there's like so many different like, it's wild. But another thing is that whether, definitely if you're on hormone - well, I wouldn't say definitely, varies person to person. But it is often easier, both due to our cultural norms of what men and women are, quote unquote allowed to wear as clothing, and just the nature of hormones and all sorts of different things. But like -
Hannah Witton
A man in a dress is more scandalous than a woman wearing trousers
Jackson Bird
More scandalous, and it's can be easier for someone assigned female at birth to be read as if not a man, a young boy, or something like that, than it is vice versa. So like, in in a lot of places, like WPATH used to make people, and I think in some places, you still have to do this, you have to like live as your affirmed gender for a year or so, before you are allowed access to hormones. And for a lot of trans people, that's like, not necessarily possible.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
It's not safe.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a long time to. Yeah, yeah.
Jackson Bird
Some people can, some people can't. And again, this is a massive generalisation, but like, you know, it might be easier for trans masculine people to be able to do that. And as medical transition goes on, for those who want to, a lot of trans guys do find that they can just kind of blend into society very easily.
Hannah Witton
Do you think it's like an invisible thing then?
Jackson Bird
Well when you can blend into society, and you have that choice of that privilege, where not as many trans feminine, trans women do. Tonnes of them certainly do, but not as many if we're going to talk relative here. When you have that option, why not take it, you know.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting.
Jackson Bird
And so, trans women who faced so many other things, have more reason to be in the activist spheres to still find community with each other, where you find a lot of trans men dropping off, like once they can be consistently read in society as men, they don't go to the community spaces as often. And that's, again, it's a generalisation. But it's enough of a pattern that you kind of see this happening.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that that, that makes a lot of sense to me. One of the parallels that I was just thinking about was kind of like how gay men and gay women have been treated by the law in the past, as well. Like, gay men, that was like, illegal and, and very much talked about, and very much in the same way that trans women are stigmatised in the media.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Whereas for lesbians, it was just like, they don't exist.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, it was like, what, women together? No
Hannah Witton
And I kind of feel like it's that same thing. It's like it's, is it a threat to the patriarchy? It's like a misogyny thing, it's so interesting.
Jackson Bird
And in fact, when you look back at history, I mean, there's so many cases of like, women moving to small towns and living out their lives together as wives, but then there's also a lot of cases of like, husbands, which sometimes, you know, we can't we can't go back in history and ask how they identified, I think some of them might have butch lesbians, some of might have been trans men.
Hannah Witton
Wait, hold on, did you do a history degree? Because you're talking like a historian? Because this is what I studied!
Jackson Bird
I did not, but I read so many trans and gender history books.
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay, sure. Yeah, cuz it's so interesting, yet, there's a lot of, the only, like, evidence that we have of maybe trans people, but again, it's like, we can't go back in time and ask them how they identified. And also like, the idea of trans didn't exist.
Jackson Bird
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
But there's, the records that we have are basically court records of people being done for fraud. And you can be done for fraud if you were a woman who dressed up as a man, because there were certain privileges that you would get if you were a man, that you couldn't get if you're a woman. But there are lots of different interpretations of that is like, is this woman dressing up as a man, they might be, they might actually be a woman, and they might be a straight woman. But the reason they're dressing up as a man is to be able to get a job, be able to earn money, to be able to own property, like to be able to vote, like they might just be doing it for practical reasons. Or they are gay, and they want to be able to live with their female partner. But as looking as if they are husband and wife, or they are a man.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And they want to dress and yeah, out and express themselves in in that way. But yeah, we just don't know.
Jackson Bird
Yeah, we don't know
Hannah Witton
Because they're just done for fraud.
Jackson Bird
There's there's one there's like one small rubric that I like using that my friend, an author, Alex Meyers, put out because he wrote a book about his ancestor, actually, Deborah Sampson, who is a woman who served in the Revolutionary War, as a man because you couldn't, you couldn't serve in the Revolutionary Wars as a woman.
Hannah Witton
Very Mulan.
Jackson Bird
And yes, very much. And so what he says is, particularly for people who are serving in, like in wars, is look at what they did after that, did they continue to live as men? Or did they, you know, go back to their normal life, living as a woman. And that's not a definitive yes or no, but I think that's an interesting way to look at it, and there are definitely a number of people throughout history, that we can kind of look at that rubric and be like, ah, okay, so probably more likely maybe in this case that they're a trans man, or more likely in this case, that they were a gay woman, or straight woman, or whatever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting because like trans people have existed -
Jackson Bird
Throughout space and time
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the entire time that humans have existed. It's just such a shame that we don't have much record of it.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
At least in a way that it's not the trans person being like punished. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, the same with like, queer history as well, like, the records that we have are like records of sexuality, or gender stuff, being criminalised?
Jackson Bird
Yep. Yeah. The press is always like, when they got found out and how they got punished. Yeah, I mean, I will say there was a lot more diversity of gender in cultures that were then colonised. And that was one of the big things that colonisers did, especially when they were forcing Christianity on people, was just push out anything that was not their ideas of man and woman. And so again, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Sorry about that world.
Jackson Bird
Yeah. Colonisation just ruined everything.
Hannah Witton
Wow. Yeah, so what, what happened with your transition? Like, publicly like, yeah, where are we now? Because what you're 29 now?
Jackson Bird
Yes, yeah. Yeah, almost 30, we're getting there. Still looking 19. That's the - trans men drink from the fountain of youth.
Hannah Witton
Is that something that you like? Or do a lot of, or do you or other trans people, trans men, have feel like any dysphoria around being like maybe shorter or looking younger?
Jackson Bird
Yeah, I think a lot of trans men feel dysphoria about being shorter, for sure. In New York City is a little bit nicer for me, because there's so many people from all around the world, like I live in the most ethnically diverse county in the in the world, I think. Major County, or urban county, or something. And so I am often not the shortest man in a room, because just with so many different cultures, there's a lot of shorter men. But yeah, it is a thing. I, I go to this camp a couple times a year called Camp Lost Boys. It's for men of trans experience, and ages range from like, 18 to 74. And it's amazing. And you go there, and there are some really tall guys, which I get so jealous of. But it's so funny, because like, you can just not ask - you can't guess someone's age when you're there. Like, you'll see a guy who you think is maybe in his like, early 30s, like, same age, and turns out, he's 50 you know. But I will say, even there, I look younger than a lot of the other guys, like both my parents look super young. So for me, it's like the trans thing, and just like genetics, like, I look super young. And I don't know how much of it being like a, I don't know if dysphoria is quite the right word, but I think anyone who looks significantly younger, when they are still maybe under 40, it can be annoying.
Hannah Witton
Right, and then once you're over 40, you're like, please, I want to look younger!
Jackson Bird
Yeah, everyone's like, oh, you're gonna love it. I'm like, yeah, but like, right now, when I walk by a high school, I get yelled at to stay on campus. And, like, that's not great when you're almost 30. Or it just messes with your head sometimes to be treated like half your age. And like - by people are younger than you sometimes.
Hannah Witton
Sure.
Jackson Bird
Um, but anyways, coming out, at 25, it went very well. Um, I come from so many places of privilege. And one of them is the fact that coming out was fine. And I mean -
Hannah Witton
But I feel like those stories need to be told as well. Because we hear so many of the negative ones, which is it's, it's important, because that's how we improve.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But it's nice to be like, hey, let's celebrate the good ones as well.
Jackson Bird
Yeah. And I also I mean, I think that's great. I think we need some happy stories, like that's why Love Simon was so popular. Like, we just wanted to live normal, happy, gay story, you know. But I think it's also, you know, as far as my story goes, that is overwhelmingly positive, and from a place of privilege, is well, it wasn't all positive. Like I went through some hard stuff. And I think for people to see that if someone from such a place of privilege, who had a relatively easy time of things, still suffered so much, and it was still so intense, like figuring out being trans. How much worse must it be for people who have it harder, in general, in life? So I think that's an important message that could sort of be taken away from it as well.
Hannah Witton
And what do you want people to take away from your book?
Jackson Bird
I would like people, a little bit of that, but I think the main thing is that I want my book to be a starting place for people. You know, my story is not the most representative story, and it should not be the only trans story that someone ever hears.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jackson Bird
There are so many resources that I packed into there. I put all this educational stuff in there, and I hope that people use those resources and go and learn from lots and lots of other trans people and listen and grow, and yeah, hear so many more experiences than just mine.
Hannah Witton
I think that's a really lovely place to end it.
Jackson Bird
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much.
Jackson Bird
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Do you have anything you want to say to the listeners, before we go?
Jackson Bird
Well, thank you for listening. I think Hannah's gonna put a link to find the book, if you are interested in getting it, or requesting it at your local library. And if you're interested in hearing more about me, beyond the book, you can follow me @jackisnotabird on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, all that stuff.
Hannah Witton
Brilliant plug. Love it. Thank you for listening, bye.
Jackson Bird
Bye!
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk, and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast