Reproductive Rights, Teaching Mental Health and Contraception Equality with with Dr Emma Chan | Transcript (Copy)
CW: mention of sexual assault
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone, welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton, I am super excited to tell you about my guest this week. Anna Lee, aka Anna the Average, is the co-founder and head of engineering at Lioness, the women lead sexual health startup that built the world's first and only smart vibrator that can measure your orgasms and improves understanding of sexual pleasure and your body through biofeedback data. I think that's maybe the first time I've ever said biofeedback data. Anna is a Forbes 30 Under 30 alumni, and has been covered in numerous publications like Fast Company, Glamour, and Popular Science. She was featured in Paper Magazine's Asian Women Creators You Need to Know and Buzzfeed's 14 Sex Tech Founders Who Are Changing The Way The World Thinks About Sex. Anna uses her TikTok alongside Lioness to expand understanding and research in sexual health and destigmatize sexuality of people with vulvas.
I was so excited to get her on the podcast because as a total sex nerd myself, I wanted to hear all about how Anna is using data and innovation to help people connect with their bodies and pleasure. And oh boy, our chat did not disappoint. We spoke all about Anna's own journey as a Korean American woman into the tech world overcoming the conservatism of her family towards sex to go on to found her own sex tech company. I loved hearing about how working in sex tech actually helped Anna reclaim ownership of her body after the impact of earlier trauma, and how she wants to revolutionise the data we have on sex and orgasms for people with vaginas. It was really interesting hearing more about Anna's motivation behind creating the Lioness and why she believes being able to measure your orgasm allows people to better understand how their body works. Anna also spoke about what it's like in the tech world as an Asian American woman engineer and, whilst she has had to navigate a lot of stereotypes and uncomfortable conversations, why she is feeling positive that the landscape of the sex tech industry is becoming more diverse. Anna also shared some great thoughts about why and how to approach using toys in partnered sex and advice on how to get into the sex tech industry. I loved this chat because it was so exciting to hear how Anna is using innovation to empower people with personal information about themselves and reduce the sex data gap for people with vulvas.
Please note that we do briefly mention sexual assault in our chat. So do take care of yourself before listening.
And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It's really appreciated. I really can't wait for you to listen to this episode. Here is my chat with Anna Lee.
Hannah Witton
Hi, Anna, welcome to Doing It. Thanks so much for being here.
Anna Lee
Amazing, thank you for having me! I'm really excited about this one.
Hannah Witton
Me too. Me too. I love getting into like sex and data and like the tech side of things and so I thought you'd be like the perfect person to talk to you about all of this. And I guess let's just start with - do you wanna tell us a bit about your journey to becoming a sex toy engineer? Was it like engineering and tech that you fell in love with first and then discovering sex toys? Or was it like sex toys first? Like how did it all happen?
Anna Lee
Yeah, that's such a good question. I always - because people are like, "Oh, like did you always - were you just super open about your sexuality and things like that?" But I always have to tell people like I was scared of my body well into my mid 20s. I actually was just really wanted to be an engineer growing up. I lived in - I was born in the US, but I moved to Korea when I was a baby. And I lived there till I was seven and then moved back to the US. And I would like to say in the most strictest sense like I grew up in a really religious, really conservative, strict Korean family and we never talked about sex or even like mental health was like a taboo topic.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Anna Lee
And so I - my parents moved back to the US and for them it was like sacrificing their lives so that they can give my brother and me an American dream. Like, you know, going into -
Hannah Witton
Classic.
Anna Lee
Yes! Like going into a good college and then having a really good career and then being able to basically like pay back our parents for all the sacrifices they've made. So I fell in love with engineering. And I was like, "Oh, I like really want to be able to build things." And I really didn't have any thing in wanting to do an entrepreneurship or anything like that. But it was really like - so I actually graduated with a mechanical engineering degree. And then I moved over to working at Amazon building Kindles and different like products that were supposed to be like, hardware products.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow.
Anna Lee
Yeah. And then one of the biggest things I - like the big aha moment for me was that while I was there, I had an incredible team. But one of the things I realised was like, I was the only woman engineer in a team of 16 engineering men, and you just never forget that feeling of like, you're a little bit different than everyone else. And I just had this like moment of like, you know, everything that we build that we consider quote unquote "unisex" like it's not truly unisex, because it's from a view of somebody's viewpoint. And so the more diverse you have of teams, like you get to build better products.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you can have so many blind spots, if the people behind the scenes all look the same.
Anna Lee
Yeah, so I, it's kind of crazy to think like, a lot of tech is really in that space. And then, so I always had this feeling of like, "Oh, I kind of feel like I have a superpower." Like just coming from a different perspective. And then the big turning point really was, I met a founder of a different sex toy company. It doesn't exist anymore. So I feel better about being able to tell this story.
Hannah Witton
Okay!
Anna Lee
But it was a guy who was the CEO and like founder, and I was like, "How do you know what you're building like works? Like works for people with vaginas, with people with vulvas, and women?" And he was like, "There's this industry standard where you put the vibration on your nose, and that's what a clitoris feels like."
Hannah Witton
I've heard this!
Anna Lee
Yes! Okay, I was like, "What, like, that's a crazy concept."
Hannah Witton
Like, test it on your nose.
Anna Lee
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And I've definitely done that as well, because I've just like heard it being said, and so I think in videos when I'm like, I can't demonstrate these toys on my clitoris. And so I'm like, on my nose.
Anna Lee
Yeah. And you're like, "Ah, it feels like really strong." And I think it's because like, we know that the clitoris has like, a lot of nerve endings. And so they're like - or so if you go to like, a lot of sex conventions, they'll always do to your nose, or the skin between your thumb and your pointer finger.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Anna Lee
Being like, "Oh, you know, like that's what it'll feel like." And I just remember being like, "Man, like, it's kind of crazy that something that's so intimate for a lot of people are built in that way." And that's how we're like, left to our, you know, like, oh, you're gonna masturbate, you're gonna buy a toy but - and I just started realising the industry was actually quite extremely male dominated historically. And so it was just kind of a big aha moment of like, man, I feel like I could probably engineer something that I actually feel so scared about, but like, really get going into that journey. And I ended up meeting my two co-founders then. And that's how we all just came together seven years ago.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so interesting that you say that, like, it was like the engineering passion but you were like, "I'm going to use this to do something that I'm scared of." So even like, when you were at the beginning of like, actually going, "I want to design a sex toy." You were still just like, "This - this terrifies me." Was it the process of like building the company, and like actually doing that, that kind of helped you address some of your own, like, sexual shame and all of that from growing up?
Anna Lee
Yeah. So I think for me, the really interesting thing that my co-founders really like to poke fun at is like, I - when we first started like, and, you know, we started getting press, and we had to do interviews - I actually was very much like, "I'm not gonna be anywhere like I don't want to do interviews. Like I don't want to say the word clitoris. I don't wanna say the word orgasm." Like, I was like, "I really want to stick to engineering." Like, I was like, the only way I would feel comfortable entering this space is like, if I come from a very, like, manufacturing, engineering, mechanical design process.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. "This is science!"
Anna Lee
When I first - Yeah, I was like, this is science, like, this is something that I feel super comfortable with. And so I actually really did come in with that mindset. So a lot of the early interviews I think I did much, much less of. And I think for me actually, like, it really was like - experiencing trauma when I was a child and it kind of did turn into this thing where I felt like I never had ownership of my own body. Like I felt like I didn't deserve to have pleasure or like have, like, masturbate or even like have sex that is like pleasurable to me. Because I just had this concept of like, maybe my - I'm like, ruined or my body is damaged or like all of these different things. And so when I came into it, I really was like, this is like the one way I feel like I could talk about it without really being about me, like, not about my sexuality, not about my pleasure, but it's like, in the most scientific sense. And so, I really did come in from like that perspective. And I mean, obviously over the yours I like - I've become so like - it's been a whole journey for me to get to the space and just being like, so open about my own body, like what I think I like in masturbation and like, when I have partners, just like having those communications, but it definitely was like, yeah, I mean when I first came in, like, I just remember, like blushing, like, I would look at like vibrator videos online, and I like, my teammate would see me like, blushing and just getting so like, hot and just, yeah. So I always like emphasise, like, I think we're all on this journey. Like, it's really not a single, like - you don't - I don't think most people come in being like, "Oh, I'm super sexually open." And so I'm always like, man, like, if I can do it, like, I really feel like most people can really get to a place where they can start feeling comfortable about their sexuality and just sex and pleasure.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and people's entry points to kind of working through all of that will be so different. And I love that yours is kind of like an entry point that I've never heard before, as well.
Anna Lee
It's really in the nerdiest way in my opinion.
Hannah Witton
Just like "Oh, I guess this is my job. I'll do it reluctantly." But then it actually led to you, like speaking about sex and sexuality in your body just like so openly as well. Because that's I first like, found you on TikTok. That was like my first introduction to you. I'm curious, what were your like, first experiences of sex toys, like, before you got into the sexual industry? Were you using sex toys? Or was it or was that like, a boundary that you - that was something that you were like, "Ooh, no, not for me." And actually working in the industry made you explore that more? Like, what's the story there?
Anna Lee
Yeah. So I actually didn't own my first sex toy until I was maybe like, 21, 22. And but I'd seen so many of them, but I always associated it - and I think this is like - it's also kind of a testament of like, how much I think the sex industry has changed over these past couple of years. But really, like when I first - I remember being like, you know like those, like really dark lit sex toy shops?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Neon.
Anna Lee
And it's like - there's somebody in there. Yes. And then like, they don't really talk to you or that you kind of have like this weird vibe. And like, most of the toys are like, pink and purple with like glittery butterflies. And then it's like, like triple X like extreme like 10 like 100 different functions. And a lot of times it had like an adult entertainers on the packaging. So for me, I was just like, "Oh my god, I just don't feel like I'm this person." And I like couldn't identify to buying it. And then you don't - there's no place to really get those information of like which sex toys are like the right ones. Like which ones are - you know, like, it was just a different time, I feel like. And so I did buy like a little bullet, I think was like first vibrator.
Hannah Witton
Same!
Anna Lee
Yeah, like a little like metallic-y plastic one that was probably like $20 because I just like didn't know anything else. And I remember buying it and I remember trying using it. And I was like, "Oh my god, it doesn't work for me." And then I remember being like, "Oh my gosh, I think there's something wrong with me because I've seen it in magazines, I've seen it in TV shows where people are like, 'Oh, like this is the best one.'" And I thought something was wrong with my own body because I was like, "Oh, like this doesn't work, am I using it wrong?" Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because you get those messages like everywhere, like in all sorts of sex toys. I think like, the big one at the moment I see is the like the suction technology.
Anna Lee
Yes!
Hannah Witton
Those are the ones that everyone's like, "If dildos and vibrators don't work for you, this is the toy for you." And then you get that cycle again of like, I know some people that those toys do not work for. Yeah.
Anna Lee
Yeah, cuz I think especially right now - I see it on Instagram and Tiktok a lot of like - especially like the rose one. It's like a little rosebud. It's a suction one, like, quote unquote, "suction" one. And I think the thing is, like, it does - it's a sensation that's like so new in this industry that like it does work for a lot of people and people are like, "Oh my god, I can orgasm in like, less than two minutes." Like, all of these things, but at the same time, like, for me, I'm actually like, it's too strong. And so I actually don't even enjoy it as much as like, I think like a deep rumbly vibration.
Hannah Witton
And some people don't want to come in two minutes.
Anna Lee
Yeah, that's like the other thing is like, I - yeah, if I have like a meeting in like 15 minutes, maybe I'm like, trying to get it done and like, move on through my day, you know, but at the same time, sometimes I'm like, I just want to like enjoy and have a good time. And so I think that's the big thing is like people always wonder - it's not that the product - it's like people always wonder, like, I think we're always left to like, "Is something wrong with me?" When really it's a question of like, "Well, why didn't this work for me? Well, what kind of sensations do I like? What things turn me on?" And we don't really give ourselves like that permission or like that boundary to help us like feel good about our bodies, when versus us always being like, "What is wrong with me? Like, is something wrong with my body?" Or like, "Oh my gosh, is this gonna affect how I like have sex with a partner?" All these things, I think. Yeah, so my first toy was like a little, like cheapy bullet vibrator, which I'm not even convinced was like body safe.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, I feel that about some of the early toys that I bought as well. Especially because I was on a budget then, so.
Anna Lee
Yes. And then you're always like - oh, I know. I - of all the budget ones I bought, I probably collectively could have just bought one nice one. But like, yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's true., But then how do you know if that one nice one is the toy for you? It's so tricky. It's so tricky to navigate. I'm really interested in hearing from an insider: what does the sex toy tech industry look like? Like, is it still very, like, dominated by cis men? Like my - like, in terms of like, the social media that I consume and especially like, in the sex positive world, there's a lot of like empowering women setting up their sex toy company stories. So I see a lot of that. So I'm like, "Oh, yeah, it's like women and people of marginalised genders like, going out doing it." But like, as an insider, is that the case? Or is it still very male?
Anna Lee
Yeah, that's such a good question. Because this is something I like, think about a lot. So when we started our company seven years ago, the term sex tech didn't even exist yet. So that wasn't a coined term. So I feel like in that space, like yeah, I think every maybe like company we ever connected with, talked to, like, it tended to be pretty male dominated as like the executive teams. And they were much bigger because there wasn't as many startups and like smaller companies coming through this space. But I think I really can say like, on a like, very optimistic, like high hope, is like the industry shifted so much. And I see one) so many, like different types of people that I think are typically not as represented or products aren't really built as often for them in sex tech. So like, people coming into this, like, "Hey, I've had this experience in life, like, I want to do something that caters to that experience, and like those people that experience that." And so I see that so much more. So I think now I would say like, yeah, like when we have like sex tech gatherings and things like that, it's almost all like, people that aren't your cis het men, I think, that are - it's more just like a different generation of I think people coming through.
And I do see - as much as I'm always also, like, I think there's still a lot more diversity inclusion of just all different walks of life that still need to be there. But it's a really good step forward. And to me, the thing that feels like the most like a we're in a really good place is that the people that probably message me the most, or like people that come up to talk to me, are like students. They're like college or high school students who are like, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't realise you can do this, like, as an engineer or like a person in STEM, like, how do I get into this? Like, how do I get into the industry?" And I just, and I'm so hopeful, like, there's going to be such a shift because I definitely in college was not like, "I'm going to make sex toys for a living." And so I'm like, the fact that people want to, like do internships, or this is their first job they want out of college is like, just such a mind blowing experience for me. So I really do think we're in good hands to constantly do that. And I will say like, as being a company in the tech Silicon Valley area, and most people's problems are like, "How do we get more women engineers to apply?" Like we're actually the complete opposite. I'm like, "They're really there, I think you guys are just not doing a good enough job of like, representing your brand in a way that women engineers want to work for you."
Hannah Witton
Is appealing. Yeah. Mmhmm.
Anna Lee
So I feel very hopeful.
Hannah Witton
That's good. Yeah, I'm curious, like, what's it like being in that space like, as a woman, but also as a Asian American woman? Because you're like, you're working in sex and there's so many stereotypes in terms of like, sexuality, about Asian women. And like, is that something that you come up against? Like, people kind of like, "Oh, you're an Asian woman working in sex tech" and then they feel like they could say stuff to you?
Anna Lee
Yeah, you know, I think one of the biggest things is like - I'm, you know, I'm, I guess I'm not going to really sit here and being like, "Well, like, everything's like, amazing." Like, there's definitely, like, through the years, we've learned so much of like, even like pitching to investors, and like being in Silicon Valley, it also lends itself to like very particular groups of people that don't look like me. And so, of course, with the fetishization of Asian women like there are I think people that get really like, intrigued with like, "Oh, like, that's so interesting, like, how you got into this space" and like, you know, will see a lot of things that are not great. And I think even just as like women founders, we've heard things like, "Well, what's going to happen like, when -" you know, cuz Liz and I are both like women founders - and like, "What do you guys gonna do if you have a family? Was this company going to disappear?" And we're just like -
Hannah Witton
People don't ask that to men!
Anna Lee
Oh my God, and we're just like, "We're still full functioning humans." Like, you know, like the word that's a part of identity. But then there comes so much more like, I guess, like, so we've had all those things. We've worked at so many like conventions and booths, and we've all heard all of them. And I think really, I've just become very much like, I'm very good at being like, in one ear out the other and I, I really do lend it to like -, it's, I really want to say like, unless that person is a really terrible person, like, it's really the cultural stigma, and like, the societal taboo we have is the reason why people can't navigate conversations like that. And so I think they do say things like stereotypes, or kind of things where they feel flustered or uncomfortable with the conversation. So they'll start saying like, things that are a little off putting, and so I always give people the benefit out because I, you know, like, if someone came up to you suddenly and was like, "I make sex toys for a living" I can see how it could be a panic for some people.
Hannah Witton
Like, "this is not a normal conversation!"
Anna Lee
Yeah, like, "How do I relate to this person? Should I talk about the last time I had sex?" Or like, you know. Like, and so I think there's that panic. So I definitely want to give that benefit of the doubt for a lot of people. But of course, I think the most interesting thing for me is like, I think when we first started I did a lot of talks and like the people want - like the interviews that I've done where people like wanted to know what it's like to be a woman founder. And I feel like as of pretty recent it's become like, 'what does it feel like to be an Asian American founder' and like, especially in this space, because it's so culturally taboo in so many of our cultures. And so I think it's slowly starting to change of people being like, wanting to have these kinds of conversations are like, how do we break the stigma? And like, how do we shift our culture into a more forward thing, where we can talk about things like this? And so it's been really cool. Like, I feel like my conversations have like shifted a little bit. Getting to be like someone that's thinking about, like, what it feels like to be like identifying as a Korean American building in a space that's like, extremely taboo. And I think, well, now it's mostly I think, like people that are very supportive of just being like, "I can't even imagine the conversations you had to have with your parents to get past here." Or like the fact that use your engineering degree for this. So I think it's definitely changed from like, a perspective of like, people being like super weird about it. I mean, I still get it from time to time, but I think I would say like, mostly I'm surrounded by good people overall.
Hannah Witton
That's good to hear. Let's talk about Lioness then, your company. The toy that you have engineered. So the thing that obviously fascinates me the most about this and is kind of like the really unique thing about this toy is that it connects to an app that measures your orgasms.
Anna Lee
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Which is like when I first saw you talking about this on tick tock, I was like, the like, sex nerd data person in me was just like ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, like what's going on here? So yeah, tell tell us a little bit about that. Like why - why did you want to kind of create something that could measure orgasms and and also just kind of like briefly, how does it do that?
Anna Lee
Yes, so um, so the Lioness is a rabbit style vibrator. So it kind of looks like your typical like it has a shaft that you can insert vaginally or anally and then there's a nub that vibrates, which is typically used for the clitoris so like clitoral nub, or it could be on your perineum if that's like something that you're interested in. But what we're measuring is involuntary pelvic floor contractions. It's one of the best indicators for arousal and orgasm. And it's what's used used typically in research, in academic research, scientific research, to kind of measure quote unquote like an orgasm. And so what we're measuring basically is like how - like, for example, and if it's inserted vaginally, like how your vagina squeezes and relaxes during orgasm, because there's a really unique pattern that happens compared to like the rest of the session. Yeah, it's so it's - and it's really like, the way we put it is like, it's kind of like if you're tracking - if you're - like in the world of like all this like tracking your health, your sleep, what you're eating, exercise, like all of those things, like how come we wouldn't do something for like how our sexual pleasure and arousal and orgasms are changing? Because there are so many different factors. Like for example, for me I have - like I've done fun things like if you drink like a lot of caffeine versus like being no caffeine, like your orgasm looks different. We've had like, for me, like stress versus no stress. And then we've even had like an athlete who's done - who had traumatic brain injury. She had a concussion during her sport. Oh, and it actually flatlined her orgasm and that was just something that she was like, "I wouldn't have known at all like that my concussion might have affected my arousal and orgasm unless I just had the Lioness and just happened to track that moment."
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting. Do you have mostly like individual stories like that? Like, obviously, obviously, from yourself and then from any users who decide to share that with you? Or are you also trying to work on like gathering like some bigger research and data so you can kind of - because one of the things that really interests me is the like, time of day and like you said, like caffeine and stress and like, yeah, is, is that something that you want to get into in terms of like, actually doing research on like, how these things affect our orgasms?
Anna Lee
Yes. So the reason that Lioness really started from the get go is actually because we wanted to build an AI vibrator. So the original concept was like, we were going to build a vibrator that like moves and the vibrations change and like it doesn't automatically - because you're sensing - it's getting to know you better in terms of like, your sexual pleasure, like, what you like, what you don't like. And then we were doing like research, we were reading so many research - I mean, we still do - but we were reading so many research papers looking for like, okay, what are the things we should be tracking? What are the things that make people like, what are good indicators? And one of the biggest things we realise is, there is so little studies on female sexual function, compared to like for like male sexual function like, for example, erectile dysfunction, the amount of research and money that is put into that research is insanely different than what's around for female sexual dysfunction, even though like - depending on research paper, but most typically, like there's more people that are affected by female sexual dysfunction than erectile dysfunction. And to me, that's like, that's crazy that there's no research on this at all. And so the reason why we started Lioness was that before we can even do anything that's like an AI vibrator, we were like, people just even want to know, like, information about their body. And then, and we really want to expand the research in this space. So what we're actually doing is like, yes, one is like helping people track their own things so they just know what's working for their body, but our actually biggest thing is that we have a research platform. So all Lioness users can opt into research studies. And so when researchers come through and they're like, "Hey, I really want to do a study, for example, on postmenopausal women, and like how their orgasms have changed" like, and so they'll put that study on our platform, and then users can actually opt in. And that's the only time we'll ever transfer your data over to that researcher specifically. So they can actually do research. So.
Hannah Witton
Right. But it's an opt-in thing.
Anna Lee
Yes. You're never often other unless you explicitly give us the permission that and you're like, I want to be a part of this research. Yeah, but definitely our our mission of why we exist as a company is that we actually want to just expand the research and understanding because things like traumatic brain injury, there's like, little bit of studies on like, how that affects female sexual function but there's not enough to actually prove, or like have different things. So little stories like that actually is like a nice way for us to be like, "Oh, there might be something here." So my, my co founder, Liz actually was able to present it at a medical conference to be like, "Hey, like, there's something interesting here that we really should explore." So for us, like our number one thing is to continue expanding the research and just the destigmatizing through understanding and data. And we do that with working with, like, researchers and doctors and all of that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What you were saying about, like, the transfer of data as well, like, just got my mind thinking about, like, how privacy is such a big conversation in this space, especially like you said, with like, all of these different apps and like technologies that are out there that like tracking all sorts of different bodily functions now. And you know, there are a lot of companies out there that have really stringent, like ethics and policies, and then others that maybe not so much. And I yeah, I want to know, like, Where does Lioness stand on all of that?
Anna Lee
Yeah. So I think this is why like, it's a really good testament as to why when we're women founders, and like most, I think almost an entire engineering team are women for our team. The reason why that's like really important is that we use our own product. And we built the product in the way that we'd want to see our like, how we want to use vibrators, and I think smart vibrators. And so I think from day one of starting our company, we were like privacy is extremely important - like, because I put my content and like data up for the world to see like that's something that I've given permission and that boundary of like being able to show that data and I would never want that like somebody else is like looking at it without my permission.
Hannah Witton
Yeah!
Anna Lee
Yeah, cuz it's still like as much as it's a graph it's still like your information and you should choose what you want to do with it. So we really worked on our privacy and our security very, very early on. And so that's probably one of the biggest things we've worked on is encrypting every data that's coming in and out. And so even if, hypothetically, somebody was trying to pull data, you know, through your vibrator, while you're transferring it to your phone, they're getting hash data, which is - it's not going to be anything informative to you in that shape or form. And then, so yeah, so we worked really hard on our privacy policy. And then I think a couple years ago, Mozilla Foundation actually did a thing on IoT devices, and they look through everyone's privacy policies and things like that. And they actually looked through Lioness is really - I'm not sure like how they decided like, they were gonna do sex toys, particularly, but we were quoted as a company that's like, basically doing their privacy policies correctly. And a company that's worth like, looking at as, like, an example of doing that correctly especially in sex tech.
Hannah Witton
Check you out.
Anna Lee
Yeah, we've worked really hard. We made sure because we know we totally understand like, that's like, you know, your data.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah. I think about it all the time when it comes to like, menstrual health tracking apps. Like all of that, like, that is such personal health data. Yeah.
Anna Lee
Do you have the sleep tracker that like, records your voice while you're like sleeping to see when you snore and things like that?
Hannah Witton
No. But I don't keep my phone in the bedroom anymore, so.
Anna Lee
Oh. Wow, that's genius. Because I have that. And sometimes I'm like, "I wonder if there's like a QA person listening to me talk in my sleep or like snore." But yeah, totally.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you definitely want some good privacy settings or something like that. Like you never know what you might say in your sleep. Like, who knows?
Anna Lee
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So okay, this is this is a very silly question. But I recently made a video about sex toy colours and just kind of like looking at that whole landscape. And I went through my personal collection of sex toys, which is 66 toys apparently.
Anna Lee
Amazing!
Hannah Witton
And I only had one grey one, which was the Lioness. And so I'm really interested as to like, why you picked grey?
Anna Lee
Yeah! I love this question. Because I, I will, I'm gonna say I'm like, as a note, like, my one of my favourite colours is pink. Like, I love pink. Like, that's like a thing. But one of the things when we first started looking at toys, and like Liz and I were really talking about, like, what's the ideal toy that we want, we were like, "I don't understand why all vibrators are like pink and purple." Like, I just don't understand, like why are they -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. There's so many. Those were my top two. Pink and purple. Yeah.
Anna Lee
Yes! And we were like, why are those the only two colours? And it became like we talked to a lot of people that have been in the industry for like, years. And really, I mean, I'm not gonna say like, this is a true fact. But like, what I've boiled it down to, from what I'm understanding is that one, because it was a male dominated industry it really was this concept of like, "Women love pink and purple. We should definitely make it pink and purple. Like, those are the colours that people want." Yeah. And then because there's only two colours that are available, people keep buying the purple or the pink. And then people are like, "See, everybody loves the pink and purple. We should keep making pink and purple."
Hannah Witton
But that's what's available!
Anna Lee
Yes. And so I actually love asking the question to all my friends, like, "Your first vibrator. Like, what was it?" Like and it's not that they can usually name the brand, but they'll be like, "It was like a purple one." And then I'm always like, "Yeah, it's always a purple one." And so, um, so I think for us, like, we really wanted to like step away from this, like, idea of like that something had to be pink and purple. And especially for like, I think both of us we don't really identify as like the people that are like, "Oh, I want a pink vibrator" and stuff like that. And so one of the big things was like, one) we want it to be as like neutral as possible. And it's something like if you found that in my drawer - well, not me, because I think everyone knows I have like vibrators in my drawer, all over my house. So like, if somebody found it in a drawer, like what would feel like - it's you know, it feels a little bit, just like neutral. Like, it doesn't feel as like, you know, I don't know, like there's your very phallic dildos with like, you know, those are awesome, too. But it's just like -
Hannah Witton
You wanted something that blends in.
Anna Lee
Yeah, like something that felt comfortable. And I think one of the biggest things we really got when we did a lot of user interviews, or people were like, "I just like - I'd have never used a vibrator. But like, I'm just like - it's intimidating of what it looks like." And we really wanted to like, take that barrier away for people. So even like the size, I would say, we've done a lot of like research and like surveys of like what size we should make it and it's probably on the slightly smaller in diameter and in length, because it was just we wanted it to feel a little bit more like something that anyone can try. Even if you maybe never used a rabbit style vibrator.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And this. I asked you over email when you sent the toy, because I'm not personally a fan of like internal vibration when it comes to sex toys. And so I was like, how does it measure my orgasms if I don't want to use it internally? But you were like, you can just put it in, it doesn't have to actually be on. Like, I love that, like, you could do your own manual stimulation and then but have the toy still like measuring what's going on.
Anna Lee
Yes, so that's - I always am like, you know, like, if you really if even if it's like the feeling of like, you don't want to, like quote unquote masturbate, I'm like, I don't know, sometimes I use it as like a measuring device like I'll like put it in and then I'll use my hands or I'll use a different toy for like the clitoris just to be like, I'm just curious what it would - like what the data will look like different like - and actually I did it for like the air suction ones because I was like - and so definitely, then I think like, yeah, I think at the end of the day, whether you want to use it as a vibrator or like a tool, like we really want people - the goal is that we want people to feel curious and like encouraged to explore their own bodies and being like, "Wait, this is so cool. I wonder what it would be like if I tried it with this, or I tried it with a partner and like totally using it as a measuring device."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, what's the - what's the other colour that it comes in? Because it was grey and...?
Anna Lee
it's a dark, it's like a deep violet purple. And I will say like it's a very like - we've worked so hard on choosing the colours. So we have like a really nice purple. But I will say Liz and I when we first started the company, we were like, "No pink and purple. Like we're not doing pink and purple." But we did choose a really nice purple. And that really goes with our brand. So I do actually love that colour. Very specifically.
Hannah Witton
Which one sells more?
Anna Lee
Oh, that's also really funny thing that because we were really like, okay, like you know as a small company you have to figure out how many of each you're gonna make and like how much you're willing to hold inventory of? We started with 50/50. And I would actually say we sell the greys a lot faster than the purples.
Hannah Witton
Ooh!
Anna Lee
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Not what I was expecting. But.
Anna Lee
I swear that grey colour is, it's really nice colour , if anyone -
Hannah Witton
I mean it was the one that I picked. So - but I think I picked it because I was like, "I've got too many purple toys."
Anna Lee
I know, sometimes it's nice to be able to distinguish like all of them. But I definitely see the trend of colours coming out that are much more like unique colours than the pink and purples now.
Hannah Witton
I'm seeing like a pastel trend at the moment.
Anna Lee
Yes, pastel is like very, very popular. Like those like neutral grey kind of gradients. A turquoise has been really popular too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yep. I've definitely got some of those. For sure. Okay, speaking of sex toys, what would be like your advice for people who would like to introduce sex toys into partnered sex? Because you also mentioned that you could use the Lioness, like, in partnered sex as well. Yeah. Is this something that like comes up with a lot of the users and stuff that you speak to?
Anna Lee
Yes. So I, I think the question I get - or the comment that I hear the most when I'm like, you know, even just in a bar setting, or if I like, go on a date, or whatever. It's like, "Oh, but if you have a vibrator just doesn't that replace the other person? Like, I don't understand." Like, I think there's the concept of like, why would you be masturbating if you're in a relationship? Or like, why would you be using a toy? And then especially, like, why would you bring it into the bedroom when you're having partnered sex? Which I'm always like, "Okay. Where do I start?" And there's this whole thing. So I think a few things. I think, for me, like one, I mean of like, obviously, the thing of like communication, like you just have to have that willingness to want to open up and talk to your partner about like, things you want to try. Like find what each other's like, "Okay, cool, let's try this. I'm really interested. Like, maybe I'm interested in and I'm not interested in." But I will also say like to all my friends that are like, "Oh, like I'm in a relationship" and they're really like, against - like, not really against it, but like, they're like, don't know how they feel about it.
I actually - one I've made TikToks about this for this exact reason of like, you should just share my TikTok or if it goes viral enough like, maybe it'll land in their For You page. Or it's actually just research studies like we have - I have countless research studies that have been actually surveyed this over and over again. And any time a sex toy is introduced within a partnered relationship, the satisfaction - it's called the FSFI, female sexual function index. And so there's different things like arousal, like pleasure, all these things that they rank on, like everything consistently statistically significantly, springs higher in pleasure and orgasm and in relationship bond, if you have a toy that's introduced into the bedroom, or your willingness to try something new with that person. And the people that have the most orgasms in relationships are people that have partners that know that they own a vibrator and that they use it or they use it with each other in the partnered sex. So, to me, I'm always like it's hard science, there's published research so I always kinda go that route first. But yeah, I think other than that, like, of course, it's the communication aspect of like, "Hey, like, I really want to try this like, what do you think we can go buy together? Or like can we go look at toys together and just like play around and see what those look like? We don't have to buy anything." But above all, I'm always like, "Do you want me to send you all the research papers? Because I will send them to you right now."
Hannah Witton
Some people might be persuaded by that. It makes me think as well. It's like, it's not necessarily that sex toys themselves are having that impact. But it kind of like acts as a as a symbol or a catalyst of a couple who have a certain kind of communication within their sexual relationship.
Anna Lee
Definitely. I really, I totally agree with you. And I've heard the - I really like - I forget who told me this, but they were like "vibrators are contributors, not competitors." And I'm always like -
Hannah Witton
Aw, yeah! Love it.
Anna Lee
I love that! We should make a t shirt.
Hannah Witton
I was just thinking - this is probably not a perfect analogy at all, but this is like where my brain went. Which is like with baking. Because I love like mixing everything by hand. Even though using like an electric whisk could be so much more efficient and easier. But there's something really like romantic about doing it by hand. Yeah, and so like sometimes I'm like, if I'm feeling a bit lazy, then I'm like, "Okay, no, right. This is too difficult. Now, let's get the electric whisk out." But then other times I'm like, "No, I will make this sugar and butter so beautiful and creamy with my - just with my wrist." You know? Probably not a good analogy. But maybe there's something there.
Anna Lee
I see where you're going. I'm actually the exact same - it's same way - it's the reason I have not committed to KitchenAid yet. I like - like I've definitely been like I'm going to make this merengue by hand and I'm going to tell everybody that eats it that I whipped it by hand. I don't know. Yeah
Hannah Witton
Right? There's something here. We can workshop it.
Anna Lee
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Right. We've got some questions from some people on Instagram. Somebody asked, and this is their language: will you be making a male version? And I'm assuming what they mean here is like for use for people with penises that you can measure like their orgasms. And then they also mentioned like: is there an anal version? But you mentioned before that you could use it anally as well?
Anna Lee
Yeah, because there's the little nub. It can act like a stopper. So when - actually this is a question I get really often cuz they're like, "Oh, are you gonna do a male version?" And I don't, I'm guessing what their meaning is, like an actual, like masturbation sleeve? I think. I don't know, like, because there's so many different toys at work. But usually, we have a lot of customers that are people with penises, people that identify as men, like, and they use it easily. And I actually have a couple of TikToks because I've been asked so much of like, this is the data, like because people have been nice enough to like, screenshot that data and send it to me because they're like, "Yeah, you could totally use it for information and like for your social media." So I've actually shown like, oh, like, like, the orgasm like with the person with a penis, like, actually looks really similar. It actually measures the same thing, because we all have pelvic floor muscles.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because it's the same contraction.
Anna Lee
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm always like, "You could actually use it." And then they're always like, "Oh, that's not what I meant."
Hannah Witton
"Not what I meant." Yeah, because I guess like designing something that would work as a penis sleeve and do the sane - that's an entirely different engineering thing.
Anna Lee
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
You'd have to create a whole new device. Somebody asked: are you worried about putting pressure on people to feel like they should be improving their sex life?
Anna Lee
That's a great question. So I think one of the things that a lot of male investors used to tell us was like, "Oh, but could you make it like a competitive toy? Like where you can share your style, and like, make it better and better?" Like all these things, but it's not actually about - for us, it's really not - and we really try with our wording. It's not about like, making them better and better. It really is, like, understanding how your body works. Because at least for me, personally, like I found comfort in like, just knowing things like, "Hey, like, I've been so stressed. And like, I don't have to have the added stress of like, why I'm not feeling as aroused as usual or why I don't want to have sex with a partner." Because I'm like, I just know like, for me, like some people like stress is a really great factor of why they have better orgasms. For me. I just know like, it's just not doing it for me. And that's something I can communicate with somebody to be like, "I just don't feel that." And so really, it's not - it's not - I think in terms of like the quote unquote improvement, it's more just like getting to know your body a lot better and like being really in tune with it versus being like, "Oh, I'm having like, really -" I mean, it's cool if you find something that I'm like, "Oh, this is like an amazing session that I just didn't realise I was gonna have." But at the same time, it's less about improvement. I think it's more about information and just like feeling really in tune with your own body.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that kind of like curiosity thing of like you were saying before, like, "Ooh, if I have coffee, then, like, my orgasms are kinda like this." And I think, like, obviously, it's totally fine to not track these things as well. But it makes me think about sometimes when you're like, either having solo sex or partnered sex, and you're just like, "Why did that feel different? Like, why was that orgasm like, a bit weird?" Or like, "Why did my body do that this time and not this other time?" But then if you're like, even if it's just like something like keeping a sex diary, like, I know that that's something that like people do as well. So you know, you can do it like, analogue too.
Anna Lee
Like manual, yeah!
Hannah Witton
Like a little sex diary.
Anna Lee
That's a big thing that sex therapists - and that's kind of the reason why we have like the app and then you can add notes and tags is one of the biggest things like a lot of sex therapists will tell you is to keep a sex journal. And I'm not saying like, every time you masturbate or have sex it has to be like " dear diary", like, you know, but sometimes if you have like, "Oh, that's like an interesting thought, or like a note or like, that felt really good." Like, sometimes it's nice to just keep track of things. That's the only way we really like improve. Not improve. Okay, I'm second-guessing. But like, that's the only way we like, really just start learning a little bit more about ourselves and have - you take the time to reflect on what you're feeling.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, improving our knowledge about ourselves.
Anna Lee
Yeah, improving knowledge, and in just turn we know more about our body, and it just helps improve just our overall wellbeing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there we go. Somebody asked: sex toys versus minimal consumption and sustainability. This is something that I have been interested in but had no idea like how to even like start exploring, but like, what is the deal with like, the materials and stuff that sex toys are made out of? And and their, like, sustainability and stuff like that.
Anna Lee
Yeah, sustainability. That's a good question. Because it's, it's a little bit of an interesting - and of coming from, like a very manufacturing like technical thing. It is - like so in order for it to be body safe - and the unfortunate thing about sex toys is that it's not actually FDA regulated, like most things that would touch your body. Because I think one) the FDA get like - the FDA was like, "I don't want to see a bunch of sex toys and have to approve a bunch of these." I'm guessing because we - when we did like Bluetooth certification, like to make sure it's like Bluetooth safe, a lot of the testing facilities were like, "I don't know if we're able to do this" or like "we have to ask the HR team."
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Anna Lee
So they were like, confused on what to do with a vibrator coming into their, like antenna room to make sure you know, like Bluetooth is safe.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Anna Lee
And so I think FDA because of that, like, companies are left to kind of their own devices to make sure that they're doing things - they're using body safe materials, and one of the most body safe materials is going to be your platinum tier silicone or like medical grade silicone. And then like your non-porous things like stainless steel and glass. So I think we do think about it a lot. Because there are you know, like, where does the lifecycle for this product go? There are a couple like recycling facilities that do take silicone, but at least for us, like when it does come into us, we actually do disassemble all of them. And then make sure they're categorised into like all the silicone, and then all of the electronic parts and all the plastic so we can actually figure out how to get those - like, right now we do have like huge inventories of just like having them and then moving them as they get completely filled up. But it's definitely a little bit of a thing. And I think it is like something - we actually actively talk about in the sex tech community because yeah, we do deal with a lot of products coming in and out. Or you know, if the product doesn't last, which it should also, like it should last a long time for you. But sometimes you do get ones that are like - I've definitely had vibrators where like got it, and it's like a dud. And then you're like, "What am I supposed to do with it then?"
Hannah Witton
Yeah, what do you do with it then? Yeah, exactly.
Anna Lee
Yeah. But there are some sex toy shops - I would recommend like talking to sex toy shops, because they do deal with those. And there are some that you have recycling programmes and things like that for that.
Hannah Witton
Okay, nice. Yeah. And I think that kind of comes back to what we were saying before about, like, when we would be on a budget instead of like, spending money on a toy, but like, if you do like spend a little bit more, then you are going to get one that lasts a lot longer. You should be getting one that lasts a lot longer.
Anna Lee
Yes. Or at least like a good - like looking at warranty, like their warranty or like you know, warranty policies and things like that is probably like always a good one to look at.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, good point. Um, somebody said: I have an idea for a sex toy. Where would I even start with making it? And some other people have asked: what are different paths to get into the industry?
Anna Lee
So yeah, that's a question I get asked a lot and like I know it's like for me, I truly believe like sex tech is still so new, like something needs to be around for like, seven, eight years - you know, just that it's so young. It really like - you could definitely enter into like some of the companies that are existing or like have been around for a little bit. And I think that's also like always a perfectly good way. But if you have your own idea, really like I really want to emphasise to people like, we were three people as co founders, like just the three of us, we were completely bootstrapped. We didn't pay ourselves for like a year and a half. I mean, and that's like, that's not something that everyone can do. But it was really us just like, interviewing people being like, "Hey, could we interview like, we're trying to build this product." And we like bought clay from an art store? We were like, making different form factors. We're learning how on YouTube, how to do silicone casting by hand and just being like, "How do we build this thing? Just to have like a looks-like. How do we know that this is the right product." And it really just started from like, as all startups like, it wasn't like the thing of like, we had all the resources in the world and we were like, we're gonna build this product. Like it took us, I think, three, almost four years to launch our first product. And so it really was like us sitting around like, there's like 1000s - I think hundreds of different prototypes we've hand built over the years. And I think it's just really like, building it out to a point where you can prove out your idea. And then that's maybe when people can start believing your vision, whether you're doing it through crowdfunding or investment, like whatever that strategy looks like. But really, I think it's just like, talking to as many people as you can. And then also just like starting to build. Then starting to create and making sure like you're building the product that you truly think is the right thing that's solving that problem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Because you're not gonna really be able to get very far on your own as well. Like, you definitely need collaborators, you need to be talking to other people. And also like, the more you talk to other people, the more that like, they might be like, "Oh, I know someone who's trying to design a sex toy" and then just be like, "Oh, you should connect and you should connect." And all of that.
Anna Lee
Yeah, I was always surprised how many people know like somebody in that they're like, "Oh, I actually have a friend of a friend who works in like this vibrator company. Do you know them?" And I'm like, wow! So you'd be surprised.
Hannah Witton
Or like, "I know someone who works in manufacturing this thing." And you're just like, "I would never have asked. But here we are."
Anna Lee
I definitely think it's like - you gotta to put it out into the world.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Just throwing stuff at the walls and seeing what sticks.
Anna Lee
And I actually really was like, "Oh, like, it'd be really cool to work on a vibrator sometime. Like, it's just like a, you know, like, organic factor, like Kindles are really rectangular. So like, it'd be totally different than that." And then my roommate at the time was like, "Wai, I know two people that are like trying to work on that. Like, do you want me to intro you?"
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so you're just thinking out loud? Yeah.
Anna Lee
Yes, yes. Hundred percent.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Yeah, yeah. Put, put those ideas out there. Tell people that you have these ideas. And then stuff will hopefully start happening.
Anna Lee
Coming together. Yeah!
Hannah Witton
Well, Anna, thank you so much. This has been such a fun chat. And I feel like I've learned loads about the sex tech world. Where can people find you on social media? And also where can they find Lioness?
Anna Lee
Yes, so my personal social media I put a lot of videos on like things I've learned about sex research and like different - my orgasm data, like what's worked for me, what's not. So my TikTok is Anna The Average and then my Instagram is annaisaverage. I will merge those at some point. I don't know why they're two separate ones.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the constant battle to get like the same username on all social media platforms.
Anna Lee
I know. And my name is just so - it's such a regular - like so many people have the name Anna Lee so like, trying to figure it out. And then for Lioness, all of our handles are @lionesshealth. And our website is lioness.io.
Hannah Witton
Lovely. Well, thank you so much. This has just been so much fun. And thank you all so much for listening. Bye.
Anna Lee
Yeah, thanks so much!