Parenting as Two Mums and with a Disability with Jessica and Claudia | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hey everyone, welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. My guests this week have been highly, highly requested by listeners for ages and I'm so excited to finally get them on the podcast. This episode is with the fabulous Jessica and Claudia Kellgren-Fozard. Jessica is a YouTuber and content creator who shares her experiences as a chronically ill and disabled lesbian in a fun, uplifting, and educational way. Jessica is an advocate for both the disability and LGBTQ+ communities, often making videos with her wife, Claudia. Last year, Jessica and Claudia welcomed their lovely baby Rupert into the world and so I wanted to get them on the show to talk all about parenting as lesbians and with disability.
We had a really interesting chat, hearing them reflect on how being disabled actually has a lot of benefits to Jessica's parenting, such as drawing on her knowledge of sign language as a deaf person to teach their baby. And on the flip side, how becoming a parent has helped Jessica with her disabilities through building greater physical strength. We also spoke about why Claudia had an elective caesarean to make it easier for Jessica to be able to be present at the birth, and how the temporary disability of recovering from her caesarean gave Claudia a new perspective on the restrictions and frustrations Jessica experiences with her disabilities. It was really interesting hearing them discuss how gendered parenting roles don't come into play as a lesbian couple and why not to say "whose baby is it really?" to lesbian parents. We also spoke about how ostracising it can be for Jessica when "mum" gatherings focus a lot on breastfeeding chats and whether they felt the healthcare environments they visited for the pregnancy were inclusive to them as lesbians.
I loved hearing Jessica and Claudia talk about the love and support they have for one another and the way they respect each other's needs whilst raising a baby together. And I really hope that you enjoy listening to this episode too. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It's really appreciated. And here are, as requested by many of you, the lovely Jessica and Claudia.
Hannah Witton
Welcome, Jessica. And Claudia. So lovely to have you here.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Hi!
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Hi! Thanks for having us.
Hannah Witton
For our listeners who may not be familiar with you, do you want to kind of like intro yourself so people know who is talking?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Sure. Hi, I'm Jessica. And I'm a YouTuber. I make videos about disability, chronic illness, and LGBTQ+ issues, often joined by my wonderful wife, Claudia.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. Hi. I'm kind of like your sidekick.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
You're my partner!
Hannah Witton
More than a sidekick!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Aw! We also have a joint Instagram account @jessieandclaud. Along with our own personal Instagrams: mine's @jessicaoutoftheclosed
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Mine's @cloudfoz, which is a really old handle, but I just can't be bothered to change it.
Hannah Witton
I like it!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Also my nickname in school was cloud. So
Hannah Witton
It's a great nickname.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It's really difficult getting anyone who knew her as a child to call her anything except cloud. They really struggle, like, they trip over it a lot. And we have a lovely eight month old called Rupert.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, this is what I wanted to get you on the podcast to talk about, obviously. I mean, you two are incredible. And then also you have this child. So it's like, an incredible family.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Thank you!
Hannah Witton
And obviously, Jessica, you talk a lot about disability on your YouTube channel. And I'm curious if you could talk about how having disabilities has impacted your parenting and maybe what some of the benefits of that have been?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yes, I actually made a video about this recently, about the benefits of being a disabled parent because I think there are actually loads and loads of benefits. People often say, or said to me before I became a parent, like, "Wow", you know. "Really, that seems like it's going to be really tough." Like, "Ooh, I don't know disabilities and parenting? Really difficult." However, I think there are so many things that I've brought to the situation, just because of my disabilities that have been massive bonuses. For instance, I'm deaf, and I use sign language. I also rely on my hearing aids and on lip reading a lot. And so we've taught Rupert sign language, and he now communicates with us through sign language. He's eight months old, he can't really speak.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
That's all he says. He said "more." He definitely said "more."
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yes. So you kind of make - she can do the sounds. What sounds do you do?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Well, "muh" was kind of "more".
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. There you go! But he can say -
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
He can say "dada", which is really annoying, and it just proves that it's not actually ever - babies are never actually saying "dad", are they?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, what could he be referring to?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
To all the fathers out there. It's not actually you.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Nah.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
And he can - he can sign when he needs milk, he can sign to tell us that he'd like a nappy change. He can sign each of our individual sign names for mummy and for Mama, which is really sweet that he has just recently started doing Mama so I'm like -
Hannah Witton
Like, he's saying my name!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Jessica spends like every minute of the day going, "Mama, mama, mama. And I'm like, can you say sometimes mummy, so he learns both? Like, it's really biased. Mummy has a little bit of "ma" in it anyway, so. Does it? So.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think it's fine.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so cool that you're teaching him sign language? Like what - I'm so curious about, like, what is known about teaching baby sign language? Like, because he's hearing, isn't he? And so like, what the benefits are? And like, is it something that's like, useful and easy, like, especially like from such a young age?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Well, I go to a baby sing and sign class, which are quire popular around the whole of the UK. And it's basically teaching your babies basic signs like "nappy" and "milk" and "hungry" and all those sorts of things that they need to learn. But some of them are like, not accurate BSL signs, are they? They're kind of baby signs. And also, a lot of the parents, as soon as their babies are actually able to start talking, they just give up on the sign language aspect of it. Like, just use it as a tool, pre-verbal, as opposed to a second language.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, the benefits of being able to do sign language with a baby is that they don't need to cry to tell you that they need something done for them. They can just communicate with you. And also you're able to talk to your child. I can talk to my child and he can express things to me, he can tell me how he feels, which is a wonderful thing. Babies are so much more capable than we give them credit for. Just because he's eight months old doesn't mean that he can't tell me how he feels or know that he's hungry, know that he needs his nappy changed or which of his parents he'd like a hug from.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's giving you access to like his whole inner world.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, and then allowing him to share it whereas he might not otherwise have the tools.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
It definitely makes parenting easier when you know what they need and want.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, we don't have to do the like, "Oh, he's crying! Gosh!"
Hannah Witton
"Which thing is it?" Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
"I'll just go down the list. Oh no!"
Hannah Witton
You're like, "Oh, he's signing for nappy change. So: got this." Oh, I hadn't thought about it like that. I'm like, "Ooh, yeah." It's a cheat sheet! What does my baby need.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
So that's one aspect, obviously. And then other things would be that just from having been disabled myself, I have a condition that means I tend to - I say like "lose" parts of my body, but it's not like I kind of take them off and put them down and walk away from them. My condition means that I paralyse limbs. And that can be for months at a time. And then obviously once they come back, they are very weak and I have to relearn to do things. So when I was a teenager, I paralysed both of my arms for a year and a half. And then I had to relearn how to write, how to hold a spoon, how to feed myself, how to do up buttons, all of the things that my child is going to learn to do. So I have a lot of patience with him. I have an understanding of the frustration of "I'm trying to pick up this spoon of food and get it into my mouth. Oh my goodness, this is really difficult. It's something I want to do. How do I do that?"
Hannah Witton
"I know the theory but I can't seem to do it in practice."
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
You have a lot more patience than I do when it comes to feeding time. Especially. When it's like the fifth spoon drop, I'm like, "I'm done. Jessica, take over."
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, but I understand that - why it's so important that he is able to do these things himself. So I'm really - I really want to kind of champion helping him to do things rather than just kind of like, "I'm going to do this for you." I'm like, "Come on. Yeah. Here you are doing it. I'm so, so proud of you watching you do this yourself! Wow." And just seeing those tiny little challenges that he overcomes and feeling so proud of him. And knowing really first hand what that feels like, because I think we forget when we're so much older than - like what it feels like to stand up for the first time. That - I mean, I hurt my back. What, how many months ago was that? Five months ago?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
When he was like three months.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
When he was three months. I had to be on bedrest for four weeks.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I thought it was more like six.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Nearly six weeks.
Hannah Witton
Felt like an eternity.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It felt like an eternity. Yeah, so I kind of paralysed my legs. Drama. And that was - that was kind of awful. And the joy of being able to be like, "I can sit up again! Wow, I can start up again! Wow!" That was really recent for me. So I can really relate to that when I see it in his little face.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I love that. And it's kind of like a silver lining, I guess, to a crappy situation of paralysing your legs.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
One plus of you being bed bound was that you had to read him loads and loads of stories, because it's one of the only things you could do with him so we spent a lot of time reading stories - well, you read the stories. And now he loves books. That's like one of his favourite things, isn't it?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, goodness, yes. We do books a lot.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Like twice a day.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Books are one of his big, big things. He's very much into them. If we don't do books at the time that we're meant to do books, he will die.
Hannah Witton
He's, he's on a schedule.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Have to do them!
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I'm also curious to learn if you think that like becoming a parent has helped you with your disability in any way?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Ooh. That's a really good question. Um, I think it's definitely helped my strength.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, anyone who has a baby soon learns that like bingo wings no more, like, you are lifting that child all the time.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Before we had him, I worked with a personal trainer twice a week, who also had worked with people who've been injured and elderly clients before, who kind of knew a bit about restorative work. Don't just go straight in with someone who was like, "Yes, we're gonna train to the max."
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh my god, imagine.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
When you have a body that's a bit out there. So I really wanted to be able to carry my baby around. It's really important to me. I need to be able to do this. Claudia's having a caesarean. I've got to be able to do stuff for her and for the baby. So that was something that I did a lot. And then after he was born, I was like, "Oh, you kind of don't need to do strength training. Because you carry that baby around. And he grows every single day. A quite a rate. Like an exponential rate. That kid is heavy."
Hannah Witton
And I guess you're kind of like getting used to it like because your strength is building as he grows.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, so it's a gradual build up, yeah. Unless you give birth to like a hefter, then it's like, you know.
Hannah Witton
"Good luck!"
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, I was big though. I was nine and a half pounds. My mother won't let me forget it.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow, yeah, that is a big baby. You mentioned about Claudia's caesarean. Claudia. I wondered, like, could you talk about why you decided to have a elective caesarean? That's something that's been, like, floated to me as an option because of my like previous surgeries and so I'm curious about your experience, and like how you came to that decision?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. So like, for me before I even got pregnant, I wasn't that keen on a sort of natural vaginal birth. One reason being I was at my sister's - not my sister's birth. That'd be weird. She's my older sister. My nephew's birth of my sister. And she had like a really straightforward waterbath birth. And it was like, all lovely, like, she describes it as magical and one of the most amazing moments of her life and I'm sure it was, but I was there. And I wasn't like all hormonal. And I was like, "I don't think I really want to go through that. Like, it doesn't seem that much fun." And you could just have a caesarean and have the same kind of outcome. So for me, I've always been very much like, I don't know, like, not really kind of wanting that - I don't know.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It wasn't something you felt like you needed.
Hannah Witton
You weren't called to be like, "I want to birth a child from my vagina."
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. I definitely wanted to carry a baby. I wanted to be pregnant. But I wasn't that bothered about how the baby came out. I just wanted it to come out the most effective safest way. And in my mind that - with have a medical background as well and having talked to my sister and my dad about it, like my dad is a retired anaesthetist so he was done a lot of caesareans, like gave a lot of the spinals for it. And my sister's a paediatrician. So they have like both of their opinions. And from a medical aspect, they both said - my dad actually said like, "I think it's actually safer to have a caesarean because there's less risks." Planned caesarean, this is, rather than an emergency one. And yeah, and I think from Jessica's point of view, Jessica was also really anxious about potential risks of natural birth, weren't you?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think it was that I didn't feel like if she went into labour at any time, I was like, I can't promise that I'm going to be able to be there.
Hannah Witton
Because there's so much uncertainty.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I have such an uncertain condition. But at the same time, I need to manage it by keeping to quite a regular schedule. So I need like my eight hours of sleep, for instance. And if she goes into labour at 3am, I'm like, "I take really heavy medication. I don't know if my medication will let me wake up at 3am, come to the hospital and stay awake for three days while you go through labour, but I want to be there for you." You know?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, very much like I felt like the birth wasn't just mine, it was Jessica's as well, you know, it's a moment that you share together. And I didn't want it to be - it was much more likely that if I had a natural vaginal birth, that, like you say, there's lots more uncertainties, and would Jessica actually have the stamina to be there with me? And if - even if she's there, is she gonna be present 100% at the moment of the birth? And then -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Or am I going to be crashed out in the corner?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
And then after the birth, is she gonna [inaudible] help, is she gonna enjoy it? So like, it was like a family decision that actually a caesarean was the way we wanted to bring our baby into the world.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I guess like you have the date for it. So Jessica, that means that you, like, you have that date in the diary and so you can make sure that you can do as as much as possible to like manage your condition in the ways that you know how leading up to that, I guess.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, so I meant I sort of stopped work a week beforehand. We were very conscious of not doing anything that would potentially like risk an injury beforehand.
Hannah Witton
No gardening.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
We did not want to be doing the like middle of the night - oh my god.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
You say no gardening - I was like mowing the lawn the day before the c-section though.
Hannah Witton
You? Fine.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Much less injury for me - she was doing whatever she wanted. But no, we were like not gonna do that 3am running up and down the house, oh my god, where's the bag? And then like, "Here I am! Oh, no, I've slipped! I've fallen down the stairs! Whoops, I'm paralysed! Now what?"
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
The nice thing about knowing the date is we actually got to choose the date. So the doctor gave us - he was like, "Do you want the fourth or the seventh?" And we were like, "The fourth has a much better ring to it."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. You get to pick your kid's birthday. Because my birthday is 19.2.92, which just is so lovely to say. I love it. And yeah, other people not so lucky with like, how it rolls off the tongue, their birthdays, but.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, you really were obsessed with having a baby in 2020, weren't you? Because you just really wanted to be like -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I was like, "2020, that sounds great!" That year did not go well.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I think we wanted it to be like 20th of February like 20.02.20.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But now you're glad that wasn't the case. So.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
We did not manage to get pregnant until quite far into that year.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, our baby's gonna be born in obviously 2022. But so they could be born on the 22nd.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, that'd be good.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so it'd be like potentially 22.4.22. I don't know. We'll see. We'll workshop it!
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
That's nice though!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
It's a bit like your name, like Hannah. It's like backwards. 22.4.22.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, yeah!
Hannah Witton
We'll see. Let's put a prediction now.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Would you give your child a palindrome name?
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Are there any other palindrome names?
Hannah Witton
There are probably other ones out there that are probably like shorter, like obviously Anna is another one. But no, I'm not - I'm not like connected to my name being a palindrome.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Hannah Jr? No.
Hannah Witton
Hannah Jr, oh my god.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Girl or boy: Hannah Jr. Works fine.
Hannah Witton
Exactly. There's a - there's an actor called John Hannah. Like, Hannah as a surname and I was like what? I never heard Hannah as surname before but hey. I'm also interested in hearing about your kind of like pregnancy experience, Claudia, especially because like my first trimester, and now that I'm like, in my third, it is - it is what I would call a pretty disabling experience. And as an inter-abled couple, like how did you, like navigate suddenly, like, Claudia, you know, the one who's normally able bodied, going through this huge physical change that can change, like, what you're able to do, potentially? And like how you're feeling and like how your body is reacting to things?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, well - I would say my pregnancy overall was actually pretty good. I felt - I didn't have any morning sickness or nausea -
Hannah Witton
Lucky!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
So I was quite lucky in that sense, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Very lucky.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I did have really bad sciatica in the first trimester and the main thing that was really bad was between sort of the first and halfway through the second trimester I had this really awful - I mean, there's no way other to explain this -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Polite way to say this!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But like, really awful, like, electric pain up my anus.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, that happened every morning. It would just come on like so sporadically. And it would last for -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
An hour.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, it would last either a few minutes to potentially an hour.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But it was like disabling. I couldn't even move out the bed. I had to like ring up work and not come in till later if it happened. I went to the doctor. On my birthday, he asked me to come in. And then he did a rectal exam and then was like -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
On your birthday!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
On my birthday.
Hannah Witton
Aw, happy birthday.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
And then he was just like, "Yeah, you got haemorrhoids." I didn't.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
She did!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But anyway, I went along with it. Yeah. And it carried on and I don't know what it was.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think it was your pelvis!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I think yeah, no, then I went to a chiropractor, didn't I? And they said it was my pelvis was moving. Because it's just changing, it changes shape. I don't know if you've noticed, but your bum shape like literally changes. And we can't get your jeans past your legs. Like, "Why aren't my jeans going up any higher?"
Hannah Witton
I haven't noticed but Dan did say that my bum was looking bigger the other day. And I was like, "Well, everything's just getting a bit bigger. So."
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It's really interesting because her bum was like a triangle shape before and then it became square. Sorry, darling. And then it became like a square shape. And now it's gone back to being a triangle shape. It's amazing.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I mean it's kind of scary that like literally your body is twisting out and like -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
The human body is just stunning!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, and I used to be really inflexible and I'm quite flexible now.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, all those looser joints.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I mean it must have been painful for her, but very interesting.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
So yeah, so during those times -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
At twenty weeks.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I'd say the nice thing about that was just to work from home. So I always had someone around to like, help me if I was having that kind of moment. We were having building work though, so that wasn't so fun. And then once that passed, I would say like the rest of my pregnancy was pretty smooth. The third trimester was probably the best I felt. I was like in the garden all the time.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Mowing the lawn, doing handiwork.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I stopped work at 28 weeks, which is really -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Didn't listen to anyone when they were like, "Slow down. Do you want to have a rest?"
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Well, yeah, because it was the pandemic and I had a frontline job as a dentist and I personally didn't really feel that comfortable working even though I'd had one of the vaccines but still, I thought, "You know what, I'm just going to take earlier maternity."
Hannah Witton
Fair enough.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. So I guess that's probably another reason I really enjoyed my third trimester.
Hannah Witton
Just like just chilling. Oh my god, I love that. Yeah, do you think kind of like that experience of pregnancy but then I guess also, like, recovering from your caesarean can give you any like, a different kind of insight into Jessica's experiences with with disability?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Recovering from the caesarean was way more debilitating than pregnancy, I would say pregnancy to me, as I said, was was quite a nice experience for myself. But yeah, the caesarean recovery, which took about six weeks for me to properly get back to my normal self, ish, was more difficult. I think for the first week or two, maybe the first week, I'm probably being generous - I was expecting to feel like I did, you know, basically, like, I'm just gonna sit on this chair, not do anything, allow Jessica and my really good friend Lily, who's my mom's best friend who came to look after us for a week to just basically like, wait on me and that's fine. But after a week of that, I was like, really bored, and just wanted to get up and do what I normally do. So I would say I did have that kind of - could suddenly see what it was like for Jessica to fill so frustratingly restricted when mentally and emotionally, you know, I wanted to get up and do things and I wasn't able to.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
You were not a good patient, no.
Hannah Witton
Jessica with her years of practice.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
it's understandable. It's understandable. It was your first time at the wheel.
Hannah Witton
Were you there like giving notes like, "Okay, so next time, like, here's how you can be a better patient."
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
You had to keep reminding me like, "You carried our baby for nine months, just like chill out"
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
"Next time, do not expect your body to heal in seven days."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, that's not how it works.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And you were like, "Wait, it's been a week now, I should be able to do all of the things. Why can't I carry everything?"
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I would say that whilst I was recovering, there were a few moments when I was like, "Maybe I should have just gone through a natural birth." Because I was quite envious of the women who had had smooth, smooth kind of births and like were literally walking around the park the next day with their buggies. And that was like not an option for me.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
But then, on the other hand -
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
- there are people who had bad births. And were just in the same situation that I was but also had had the trauma of a birth.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
But also then I was then with you able to do things. Yeah. So the way that we did it -
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
And we were really lucky as well that you don't just have two weeks paternity or something like that. You had like - Jessica took off two months, didn't you?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. And the way that we did it meant that I was able to really be there and look after you.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. Because she knew I was having a caesarean, she had planned to have that time off. Whereas if we hadn't planned that, maybe she wouldn't have allowed herself that much time off work. And so that was another plus really.
Hannah Witton
So you kind of started touching on it there and I'm interested to talk about, like gender roles and parenting, and whether like, as lesbian parents, have you found yourselves kind of like, I don't know, like, doing certain roles? Or is it purely just like, based on like, well, Claudia is the one that, like, carried the baby and has the boobs? Do you think you're kind of like free from a lot of the gender roles that maybe like a straight couple would find themselves kind of under?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I mean, I would say we more - I mean, you can correct me if you think differently, but I think we are just like - we just do what we both are - where our strengths are.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think we're driven the same way that we have been with our marriage, where we do what we're good at personality wise, rather than looking at it -
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
- as gender roles.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Both girls. We forget that we're lesbians all the time. We're like, "Wait. Isn't everyone else a lesbian?"
Hannah Witton
Because you're like, "This is our normal!"
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, we just forget that we're different. No, so we - we pretty much share things out based on like, I'm good at reading stories. I'm good at nappy changes.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
You're more patient with mealtimes.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Claudia does breastfeeding.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I do like - I do like food production, like I provide the milk, like I make all the food, and then Jessica gives it -
Hannah Witton
The food distribution.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
You sometimes bottle fed at the beginning. Because that was something she wanted to do. But he doesn't have a bottle anymore.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
He started rejecting bottles. Fun. Fussy.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
When I was - like when I was recovering from my c-section, I was so keen to get up on my feet and like go do things like around the house and out in the garden, that Jessica would literally come chasing me around the garden with Rupert. "Can you feed this hungry baby? I don't have the food." And I was like, ahhh.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
“I can do everything for him except feed him. Can you feed him?” "I am busy with these leaves!"
Hannah Witton
“My other children.”
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. Currently, Claudia is still kind of just finishing off her maternity leave, which means that I'm working and so she looks after him while - I don't know, it feels weird to say "she looks after him." But she gives him -
Hannah Witton
Parents?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
She's with him whilst I'm working. And then the rest of the time we're pretty much 50/50.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, we try and get a good balance of like, Jessica kind of does the like morning story, gets him changed for the day. I basically take him out or do whatever with him for the day. And then at 5pm she's meant to finish work, and then she helps him get dinner and then we do bath together. So.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. One of the reasons why I asked this is just because obviously like, my my partner is a man. And in terms of, like, our personalities, we do tend to kind of like fall into like stereotypical gender roles. And I'm always just like, so resistant to it. And I'm like, "Why do we have to be like this?" And always like questioning it, of like, "Wait, is this - is this intentional? Or is this something that we've just kind of like fallen into?" And I - I'm constantly like, second guessing like everything.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
It seems like harder for you then because - like because you are different sexes. Like you say, you can you can think "Oh, are we like doing a gender role?" For us, we don't think that, even if we aren't doing it.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
But then like people assume that because I'm the "girly one", I must be the one that's given birth.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
So if they see us together -
Hannah Witton
Ooh, okay, yeah, right.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I would quite often the at the start, people would be like, "Oh, your baby. Oh, like how old is he?" And we'd be like, "Oh, he's six weeks old." And then people'd look at me and be like, "...oh."
Hannah Witton
"How?"
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
They'd be like, "Wow, I never looked like that when I had a six week old baby." And I'm right next to her and my chubby bum.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Do not judge people based on their size and appearance.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I'm not gonna be like, "Oh, no, it was my wife. Please judge her appearance."
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God. Yeah, that's actually a really interesting point like, even them getting it right - it's still just like, a weird comment.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. The weird thing is like the amount of people that stare down at my belly when they saw - when they ask like - if they see that - they saw I had a young baby or pushing around the buggy, they'd like look - maybe it's because we were together. Maybe they try to work out which one of us gave birth. It's really weird, anyway.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
People love to try and guess like, "Whose baby is it really?" You can't see because it's a podcast but I'm using air quotes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I was gonna ask because you made, yeah, you made that video about like things not to say to lesbian parents and that was like one of them, wasn't it? And what are some of the other things that are on that list?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh my god. Like, "Who's the dad?"
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Why, like, whose - what was it? "Why did you choose to carry it?" And there's a certain way people say like
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, yeah. So people often ask me like, "Why didn't you carry the baby?" But just like, flat out. “Why didn't you carry the baby?” And then I'm like, "Do I lie to you? Or do I tell you the truth? Which is that due to my medical issues, I can't carry a baby. Which I guess makes me technically infertile. Fun Bet you're really happy you asked that now, aren't you? We're all really awkward."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Cuz it's such a personal question. And it's like, unless you're prepared for like, any answer, like, do not be asking that.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Just don't. Just don't.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But you're kind of used to that kind of intrusion because people ask you all the time, like "What's wrong with your leg?" Or, "Why can't you do that? Why are you in a wheelchair?"
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
"What's wrong with you?" I get that all the time. Or they'll just be 0 whenever I say what my job is and I'm like, "Oh, I make videos about disabilities because - on YouTube because I have a disability." And then they're always like, "What's wrong with you?" It's such a weird way to phrase that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that is such a weird phrasing.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Just really, really, really put that out there, didn't you? Wonderful. Good.
Hannah Witton
Fantastic. Yeah. You mentioned one of the other ones is like who's the - who's the dad?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. The amount of people - mainly the older generation, like our parents' generation. The amount of times you have to correct them that it's "the donor" when they're like, "Oh, well, you know, the father this, the father that," and you're like, "The donor!"
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
There's no father at all!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz "the father or dad" like, assumes that there's a relationship there.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
And it's just not the case. Yeah, and this kind of like, speaks to another question that actually somebody had on Instagram. Somebody asked: have you felt excluded from mum/parenting spaces due to being disabled or also due to being two mums?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Personally no, because, like, well, one, we live in Brighton, which is very gay centred, friendly city. But also, I think, if anything from my experience of going to like play groups and mum groups and doing NCT, actually it would be the probably the fathers or you know, male parents that would feel more excluded or outside-ish because everywhere I go, it's all women. Like, pretty much anywhere.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think any parent that doesn't read as stereotypically female.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I think that's - they would stand out more. Even in somewhere like Brighton. Like I went to a playgroup yesterday. And like, you know, if we went together, no one would really even notice we were probably two mums because there's just so many bloody women with their babies, like we're probably just like -
Hannah Witton
Oh that's so true.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. And in terms of disabled access, they always have to put ramps down for buggies. So actually, it makes it quite - more accessible then - it's almost like - I find it kind of interesting because like when you have a baby, it's like they're this mini disabled person. Like, they get their own like toilet, they get their own changing space, and they get ramps put down everywhere. And it's like -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
They do not always get their own toilet! For god's sake, the changing space is in the disabled toilet.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Oh yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
She says, as a person much aggrieved by that.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, yeah!
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
A disabled person without a baby.
Hannah Witton
What if somebody needs to change their baby and a disabled person needs to use a toilet at the same time?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
That's a big question.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Er, the disabled person has the right of way.
Hannah Witton
There we go. You heard it here first. That's the order of priorities.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It's called a disabled toilet!
Hannah Witton
You could change a baby's nappy on the floor. It's fine.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I mean, really, if you go to some really good places, they have a separate changing room to a disabled loo.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
They do. They do.
Hannah Witton
One of the things my dad was telling me about, like his experience when like me and my sister were kids was like, if he was the one at the playground, or if he was the one picking us up from school, apparently, he would get comments like, "Oh, so you're babysitting today?" And he'd be like, "No, not babysitting. Like parenting." And it was really interesting, because he was, yeah, he was like, kind of like telling me these stories of like, weird comments that he would get. And he was like, "That was probably, like, my first and only experience of like sexism as a man."
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Indeed. I mean, I sometimes feel a bit funny if we go to places together, but more that was when he was younger. Because you were breastfeeding. So it kind of like ruins the illusion. Which sounds weird.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
So we did NCT. And the one time you felt a bit outside was one of the first meetups we had, like after we'd all had our babies. And we were all like, just all the mums were sat there, pretty much breastfeeding in this cafe and, and talking about birth and the birth experiences and breastfeeding, and their breastfeeding experiences. And then I think you just felt quite like left out.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, the conversation was also a lot about like, "Oh, does your baby look like you or your partner?" And that kind of thing?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
That's all right, you can say he looks like me.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Spitting image. Weirdly he looks like Claudia's brother.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I don't have a brother.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Claudia does not have a brother, no. If Claudia had a brother, though, it would be Rupert.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
My imaginary brother.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Her imaginary brother. Yeah, I don't know. Just cuz everyone, all the women were like sat around breastfeeding, holding a baby, and I'm there like....
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But then, as they get older, the babies get older, and birth isn't such a, like fresh experience for everybody -
Hannah Witton
Got more things to talk about.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, it moves onto other stuff like what they're doing this week.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Sleep regressions, normally, is like the main point of topic, isn't it?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, actually -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
He's not hit the next one, thank god.
Hannah Witton
I was gonna ask about the sleep stuff. Because Jessica, you mentioned about like, needing eight hours. Are you still able to get eight hours? Like is that something that you'd like managed as -?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, she's fine!
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I'm deaf, Hannah. I'm deaf.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
She can sleep through it.
Hannah Witton
You're just like, "I'm fast asleep!"
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I can sleep through a fire alarm.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, wonderful.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Like. I'm good. So he used to sleep in our room and the only thing that would wake me would be like, Claudia moving so much in the bed. As she kind of - picking him up and feeding him and putting him back down and feeding him. But now he sleeps in his own room. And yeah, and I get woken up by the monitor, but.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I mean, I think because Jessica has chronic fatigue plus she was - she's the one who's still working and I'm the one who's breastfeeding, it was never like a question that I would just do all the nights. Like, I know some parents like to do like, "Oh, you can sometimes do the nights" or, you know, "My partner does the night feeds with a the bottle" or whatever, we just - put but was never our plan anyway, was it?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
No.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
So she still manages to get her eight hours of sleep pretty much.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Also if I did a night, I would just be useless for the next three, four days. And then it's like, "Was that really worth it?" Because then I'm not parenting - I'm not doing 50% of the parenting for three, four days. She's doing 100%. So. Didn't really help her.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But what was really helpful was very helpful in the first eight weeks that you took off, because you weren't working. I would do all the night and you know, when they're that little, they're pretty much feeding all the time. And then Jessica would get up at like 6am whenever it was when he kind of woke up and such and then take him downstairs for a couple of hours between a feed and I'd have like a good two hour proper sleep.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, I'd do that because I was feeding - because he was taking a bottle? Not that he takes the bottle now. He actually eats food now. So you can very easily feed him food. But yeah, so to start with I'd stay up a bit later and you'd go to bed earlier.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I went to bed at the same time as him which was like, really early.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
No, I stayed up with him.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, I can't remember. Things change so quickly with babies.
Hannah Witton
You're like, "What has happened?"
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
But when he was really little, I'd stay up late with him. You'd go to bed.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd go to bed at like eight.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And I'd bring him up. And wake you up, give him another feed. We'd all go to sleep. You'd feed him through the night. And then I'd take him downstairs.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
When you woke up at six, or pretty much - oh, that's right, sure I remember sitting in bed, like literally googling whatever the hell I felt like googling that night, learning some new thing. I signed up to so many online courses and didn't listen to any of them. And then like, literally I'd be like, "Oh, my god, it's like it's half five. I can wake her in half an hour. Oh my god, it's a quarter to six. I can like - and then like five to six, I'm like, "Okay, get up now, it's your shift!""
Hannah Witton
“Time for my sleep!” On a like, different topic, did you find navigating like the health care system in terms of like your fertility and like pregnancy and birth, like all of that - did you find that inclusive as two women? Like, I mean, again, you're in Brighton. So maybe the hospitals there, like, have good policies around like the language that they use about patients. But I'm just- well, not even patients. That's also like, a weird word that some pregnant folks find. Like, "I'm not a patient. I'm just pregnant." Yeah, did you find that inclusive? Like, what kind of like, the language that medical staff would use? Or like posters around the hospitals and things?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to kind of bear in mind that, obviously, we were going through this in the middle of COVID. So there was a lot of extra layers of things where it was like, "Oh, I couldn't go to appointments, because there was COVID." There was a lot of stuff that was much harder. That I think, you know, no one could bring their partner to because COVID. But I think there was like one, ultrasound that I definitely - on like the 20 week ultrasound that I remember going to.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And she was very much like, "Who are you?" When I came in. And I was like, "Her wife."
Hannah Witton
"Best friends. Going to ultrasounds together."
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, she probably thought you were my best friend.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Gal pals! Going for ultrasounds!
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
It almost felt like they were ready to give you a spiel about only family members were allowed to come with me or something.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh my god, yeah, only family members.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I mean, I would probably say that being to cis women as well, I wouldn't be able to answer your question fully. Because probably, I think probably there were - most of the posters, like you say, and things, are very much like women and female and female anatomy and this and that and that. So I don't know how inclusive it would be if maybe you were like - I don't know. Didn't identify as a woman potentially in having a baby.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I do remember kind of picking up slightly on there being some things and being kind of impressed by that. But again, we live in Brighton, which likes to pride itself as being the gay capital of the UK.
Hannah Witton
I feel like I heard about a hospital that might be somewhere around Brighton where the maternity - or even like, I guess even that word is really gendered as well. But where the kind of like the pregnancy/birth part of the hospital has been bringing in policies to make it like gender inclusive.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Pregnant person rather than pregnant woman.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
That was in Brighton General Hospital, I believe. Yeah, so that kind of got all blown out of proportion by the Daily Mail. And what that actually was, was I think they just had a policy of trying to educate their staff members and say that if people come in and tell you that they're uncomfortable with you using phrases like breastfeeding, that there are other phrases you can use such as -
Hannah Witton
Chestfeeding.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
- chestfeeding, like just letting them know there are other phrases you can use. And the Daily Mail was like, "Oh my god, the NHS are going to change all of their phrases to everyone and it has to be used for all pregnant people. What!" Obviously not that the Daily Mail said "pregnant people." We found throughout our pregnancy that we were constantly - like pregnant people is just such an easy thing to say. I don't know why people get upset about that phrase.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Like, it's one of those ones where, for me when I'm talking more generally, and, you know, I'm talking about pregnant people more generally, but also like, I'm, I'm a pregnant person but I'm also a pregnant woman. And so like, you know, if you know, somebody's gender, then like - and you know that they're happy to be referred to in a certain way, then like - that doesn't mean you have to be like gender neutral with everybody, when it comes to like individuals. Okay, yeah, we've got some Instagram questions. Somebody asked: how do you deal with burnout, or just a lack of energy when parenting? And Jessica specifically, like finding the balance between being a mother with fatigue and your other conditions?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
How do I do that? With the help of my wonderful wife. I think we just lean on each other. Like, we just kind of have a thing when one of us - if one of us is not up to it, then the other one kind of has to be? So.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
I mean, I think when since we've had since I got pregnant, but especially since he's been born - maybe it was when I was pregnant as well. Jessica's like, really, like, you've been quite pushing with work. Because you became a bit like," Oh, my God, I've got a family to provide for." And like, you know, and that's become a new motivating factor her work. But then also, that's, that's like a negative as well, because like you say, you're like burning yourself out, and you're getting exhausted. And you mean, you can't spend like, as much like time with Rupert that you would want to be? So I'm often having to be like, actually, like, putting the brakes on her a bit.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. She kind of just tells me to stop and not do things.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. And keep reminding her that Rupert is eight months already. Like, like, you're never gonna get this time back. And he like changes so much every day. And yeah, it's great that you're working so much, but also, your job can be flexible as well, if you want it to be, so she - I just tell her that she should try and let you know.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Chill out.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Chill out a bit.
Hannah Witton
I feel like I'm seeing into my future and I'm gonna be like, saying exactly all of that to Dan at some point along the line. Just be like, "They're changing every day. You'll never get this time back." Somebody asked, What is one thing that you thought would be easy as a disabled parent or a non-issue that is actually hard?" Was there anything that you were like, "That will be fine?" And then you were like, "Wait."
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
That I thought would be hard - wait, no, something I thought would be easy, but is actually hard?
Hannah Witton
Maybe you just know yourself so well that you are like, "No, I know exactly how all of these things will affect me."
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
You know, to be honest, I kind of thought that -
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
You definitely thought working with a baby would be easier than it is. Like you thought you could still fit in quite a lot of work.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
That's true.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, you didn't realise how much time a baby would occupy
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
No, I think I kind of thought that he would -
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Sleep more, or something.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I don't know. That was madness. I don't know what was going on there. Yeah, I was like, "Yeah, sure. It'll be fine. I can be in the same house as him and be working." No. No, you can't. Hannah, I'm telling you now. It's not a thing. Somewhere else. I mean, I deeply regret - that I did that. I have a lovely office, home office that I have set up. And foolishly it is all of how many metres away from Rupert's main play space?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
It's next to the kitchen.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
So four metres away from the space he generally plays in. Bad idea.
Hannah Witton
Is that just because you get distracted and you're just like, "I just want to hang out with the baby."?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
She gets distracted. I'm like, "Oh my god, look at him, he's so cute." So I distract her as well. Also, he shouts a lot.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, Little Miss "he changes so much every day. You'll never get this time back. It's just special and precious". Of course it is. Of course it is! And he's just the other side of the door, four metres away from me as I'm trying to work. Yeah, definitely don't be - this door's got glass in it. Foolish. Foolish!
Hannah Witton
You can see right through. Start putting up some like blackout -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And I can see through it! And I'm like, "Oh, he's so cute, what's he doing now?" Not good.
Hannah Witton
Aw, bless. And then actually somebody asked as well, back to kind of what we were talking about right at the beginning: do you think that all children should first learn basic sign languages because it's easier than speaking?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. I mean, I would think so. Do you not think so?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I - yes, only if you pay respect to actual sign language. Not as learning some kind of made up sign language.
Hannah Witton
Like a baby sign thing.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think it needs to be a sign language that is taught by deaf people, that is based in the sign language of your region, that is with an awareness of sign language, and how it actually works. That isn't just like, "Here's the sign for milk." I'm going to need you to put some effort in here. I'm going to need face. I'm going to need body. I'm going to need some emotion. Come on now. Give it to me.
Hannah Witton
From the top, let's go.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, give me - give me some bit of like history of deaf culture and learning. This is what I want from parents. Yeah, I don't think it's quite right to just be taking a part of culture because you think it kind of makes parenting a bit easier.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
But I - but also for slight, like, playing devil's advocate, I think it's a good, accessible way for people to maybe get a bit more aware of how useful a tool is and how it is another actually form of language, than that may be from communicating that way to their baby, they realise that actually, it's an aid to communicate to other people who have language impairments. or deafness, or -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And I think it's a great thing for the child growing up knowing deaf - knowing sign language, like you're saying, and then the child goes to school. They see, oh, there's a kid who is deaf. Use a sign language, brilliant. Maybe they can communicate on the playground with them. Maybe they can make friends. Maybe that child isn't as alone as they might once have be.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you have any - [background noise.]
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Sorry, one sec.
Hannah Witton
Like, what was it, that - was it a BBC interview?
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Oh yeah, when the child comes in.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
When you see the reporter's child. It's okay, it's my assistant.
Hannah Witton
Are there any resources that we could leave in the shownotes that you would, like, recommend for parents who are thinking about using sign language with their babies? I
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I have a terrible memory for names, Hannah. So I'm going to send them to you and you can add in a voice thing where you read them out here.
Hannah Witton
And we'll definitely put them in the shownotes as well so people can find them linked there. Thank you both so much. It's been so good to chat with you and just lovely to catch up as well. Do you want to remind people where they can find you and all of the good stuff that you make online. Yep.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yep, so you can find me over a YouTube channel which is Jessica Kellgren-Fozard. That's just my name. And you can find many videos with Claudia. You can also find us on Instagram @jessieandclaud and me on my instagram @jessicaoutofthecloset.
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, and mine is @cloudfoz. All one word.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, and TikTok. Forgot about that.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, and TikTok.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It's @jessicaoutofthecloset. You could have guessed that.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that. Thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. Bye
Claudia Kellgren-Fozard
Thanks for having us!
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Bye!