Platonic Life Partnerships & Demisexuality with April Lee & Renee Wong | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy with me, your host, Hannah Witton. I am really excited about this week's episode, which is all about platonic life partnerships and demisexuality. My guests are April Lee and Rene Wong, platonic life partners both originally from Singapore and now based in LA.
April is a Singaporean writer and creative producer and Renee is a self defined explorer of self spirituality and knitter of scarves. I really wanted to get April and Renee on the show because I'd been hearing more and more about platonic life partnerships or PLPs. And with April being one of the main people talking about PLPs online, I knew I had to have her and Renee on to tell us all about them.
April and Renee told me all about their own personal story and what led them to becoming platonic life partners. We chatted about what a PLP actually is and how to tell the difference between a best friend, a potential PLP, and a romantic love connection. We spoke about the need to deprogram the instilled desire of wanting a romantic partner to be your everything and forever, and why it's more common for women and queer people to have PLPs. April and Renee told me more about the specific logistics of their PLP and how they've gotten to handpick things that create security and commitment in their partnership but without having to deal with the complex legalities of marriage. We also spoke all about their experiences of dating other people whilst in their PLP, and also about their identities as demisexual. We talked about what it's like navigating such a sexualized world when demisexual and the importance of really knowing yourself, what you want, and what you don't want. April and Renee also spoke about what would happen if they were to meet a romantic partner they also wanted to share a life with but why April and Renee know if they were to have children, they would want to do it with each other.
I loved this chat so much as it was so brilliant to hear how April and Renee are redefining relationships, partnerships, and just absolutely doing life in their own way. It was so inspiring.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes which are over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please leave us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really really appreciated. I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. Here is April and Renee.
Hello, April, Renee, welcome to the podcast. Before we begin, do you want to briefly introduce yourself so people know who's voices is whose?
April Lee
Yeah, sure. Hi, I am April.
Renee Wong
Hi, I'm Renee and together - no, I'm just kidding.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, like children's TV hosts, that's brilliant. So I wanted to get you both other podcasts because you are platonic life partners. And this is something that, to be honest, I've only just come across recently. And you talk about it a lot online. And I think it's such an interesting thing. And so can you briefly explain like what a PLP is, as we shall refer to it from now on?
April Lee
Yes. So, to us, the platonic life partnership is essentially a best friendship with a commitment that is kind of akin to a marriage in terms of just, you know, financial, domestic partnership -
Renee Wong
- co-parenting -
April Lee
- co-parenting in the future possibly, just kind of having a combined life with this person. That - platonically.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and how did you two end up in a platonic life partnership, then? What's your story?
April Lee
Oh, it's a long story.
Renee Wong
It's a really long story. I mean, we've been friends for 13 years.
April Lee
13, 12 years. Yeah.
Renee Wong
And I think we just slowly kept choosing each other little by little along the way. But what really like made the change was during the pandemic. I was in Singapore, and she was in LA, and it felt like the world was ending.
April Lee
Right.
Renee Wong
And, and we just wanted to be with each other so badly, and that and that - I think that was what made us made the decision to really start making moves to be with each other physically as well.
April Lee
And then along the way as well, I think we had to, either intentionally or just like subconsciously, break down a lot of societal expectations like, in ourselves, our programming, you know. We had to deprogram ourselves into like wanting like a romantic partner to be my forever partner, wanting marriage, wanting kids, that happened really early, like, deconstruct it and got rid of that, really early.
Hannah Witton
What were some of the hardest ones to kind of get rid of? Because some of that shit is so ingrained in us. And I'm someone who's very much followed that kind of conventional life that has been laid out for me. And I'm constantly questioning like, did I choose this? Did I want this? Or have I just been taught to? Yeah, what was like some of the hardest parts to let go?
April Lee
That's a great question.
Renee Wong
I think the first one being that be the one that you have to end up with has to be a romantic partner. I think that's the main one, the biggest one.
April Lee
But honestly, it was - it's not that it was easy to get over. It was like, I - we didn't see it for like 22, 23 years of our lives. And then all of a sudden, we saw it.
Renee Wong
Yeah.
April Lee
And so it was - we didn't get over it the moment we saw it. But it took a while for us to see it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And for you, I guess, like - I'm not someone who's like ever had like one intense like best friendship. And so I'm curious, to you, like, how do you differentiate between like a best friendship that you want to be this life that you're building together versus romantic love? Like, how - are you - like, what does it feel like to you to differentiate those?
April Lee
Wow. Um.
Renee Wong
I guess the reason why we also coin ourselves PLP is because when we were growing up, we kept trying to find terms and labels that were - that were that -
April Lee
- felt fitting to us.
Renee Wong
Exactly, because best friend didn't feel enough.
April Lee
Yeah, so we kept going soulmates, we kept going like twin flames. And people would joke that we were like lovers and like together in that way, but we weren't. And we were just trying to find something that felt genuine and true and authentic to who we were. Yeah, and I think the distinction for me, honestly, is that romantic love comes with such intense hormones like coursing through your veins and just like - you makes everything feel so much more, right? And I feel like friendship is that stable, secure thing. And romantic love is - it comes in waves, it grows, and it subsides. And there's a lot of fragility around it, I feel because it's so impacted by hormones and like many different external factors. If you think about it. My friends have always stayed and I've gone through countless romantic partners.
Renee Wong
And like you said, like, it's so - it's so hard to make that your romantic partner, your life partner, in the sense of they have to be everything of what you've mentioned before, like financial partner, blah, blah, blah, blah, but also romantic and like, and sexual.
April Lee
And hold on to that.
Renee Wong
Yeah, like to keep the flame alive while you're discussing bills. Yeah.
April Lee
Yeah. Oh man. I think [inaudible] the question
Renee Wong
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I have always thought about that, that there is like a lot of pressure on romantic relationships to fulfil like all of your needs in that way. You seem like so secure in this with each other. But I'm curious, like, was there any pushback from other friends and family who didn't really like get it?
April Lee
I think like, maybe when we were younger, and we were just together all the time, people would either joke and assume that we were secretly dating because they weren't able to understand this level of emotional intimacy and commitment to each other even as I moved away to LA. But the moment she decided to come here, I don't think there was much.
Renee Wong
Yeah, I think - I think once we had more separation in our lives, like going to different schools, we - we still kept in such close contact, and we still held each other in such high regard as best friends that people really did see that commitment to each other and no longer felt the need to say, "Oh, no, they're secretly dating." Or, I mean, they would still ask like, "Do you think you guys could ever be together romantically?" And we've definitely like made sure to think about it. But it's like, no.
April Lee
Nah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no. Fair enough. Do you think PLP is the like, becoming more popular? Or like, known about and like talked about like in the last few years?
April Lee
If we just say the last year alone.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, really?
April Lee
I don't think I've heard any talk about it not - well, not much, until I started posting about it myself. And then all of a sudden, it's everywhere. Which honestly makes me feel great, because I feel like it resonates with a lot of people, like genuine will feel this kind of bond, or they feel like they want this kind of arrangement for their lives. And that makes me feel happy that their minds are open to spending their life with a platonic partner.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. How does it work? Or like, is there something that you don't have, and you find frustrating in terms of like how society is built and structured around romantic partnerships in terms of security, in terms of like, you know, being able to be the person who goes to the hospital bed with them, like being like in wills, and like, all sorts of different like tax things, and just being recognised by like, your state, your government, like as partners. Is that something that frustrates you that you would like to see changed?
April Lee
I don't think I feel frustrated anymore. I think initially, when we had made this decision, we were feeling like, we need something that's going to recognise us as you know, family, which is what we are like, just because we're not romantic or like sexual doesn't mean that we're not like family. Yeah, so. But now, I think - I think we see things a little differently in the sense that we realised that we can still combine our lives in the way that we want to. For example, we can get a joint bank account, we can go get power of attorney or power of like, whatever, like different documents that we could do, to kind of choose our own adventure and the kind of union that we want, instead of just going from marriage, which was meant for romantic partnerships.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's so cool. I love that, like, choose your own adventure thing. Because a lot of people don't realise that when they're like signing that marriage certificate, like that's a contract that they've signed. And they're all of those - it's full of all of those, like mini contracts, like you said, like power of attorney, like complete 50/50 is shared finances, like custody of children, like all of these things are kind of like built into that marriage contract. But like for you, you're like, "Oh, we'll take this thing. This thing works for us. We'll take this one. No, leave that one."
Renee Wong
Yeah, saved us a whole lot of legal trouble like if we ever -
April Lee
- broke up -
Renee Wong
- split up, broke up or anything -
April Lee
Divorce is expensive.
Renee Wong
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. How I mean, hypothetically, like, how, would that work? Like in terms of like your joint assets? Have you got like a document written between the two of you of how you'd split everything up?
Renee Wong
I think right now, because we are still in our mid 20s, I think we're still forging our own path. And there are - it's a lot - a lot of things are in mind for combining those administrative or logistic things in the future.
April Lee
But not right now.
Renee Wong
But not right now. Like right now. We still have separate bank accounts. Right now - but we are probably wanting to look into the power of attorney thing.
April Lee
Yeah.
Renee Wong
Especially with medical issues, possibly in the future. Make sure that we are able to be there for each other, especially when we're kind of alone in this country. Like -
April Lee
Completely. Actually that's a big reason why we've been holding off on combining our finances completely. I think what we do is we work together, right? Cooperatively with our finances, and we're generous and we share resources. But we don't want to be codependent, especially when you're like in your young 20s. And neither of us are making an exceptional amount of money. If anything were to happen, we just want to make sure that each person has their solid like foundation of money and savings and their own like assets that they have. Just to protect each other really. We don't want either one of us to be completely financially dependent on the other.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, to be honest, I kind of feel like you two probably talk about a lot of this stuff more than romantic couples do. And they should.
Renee Wong
Yeah. I mean, it's also because like, they don't want to destabilise the romance part of it.
April Lee
I think it's because romantic relationships, especially heterosexual ones and especially marriage, has already has a default template for you. And you don't have to think about these things. But when two women come together that aren't lovers, even more so, we have to discuss all these things because no one tells us what - how it should be,
Renee Wong
What's the role. And there shouldn't be necessarily roles to take on. It's a shared - a shared life.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Do you think it's more common for women, people who identify as women, to form PLPs? Is that something that you've noticed?
April Lee
Yes.
Renee Wong
Either women, or -
April Lee
Queer.
Renee Wong
Queer men. Or just queer people -
April Lee
Queer people in general.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, interesting.
Renee Wong
I think it's also because like you said -
April Lee
Asexual people.
Renee Wong
Asexual people as well. And like you said, like, I guess like, with heteronormative couples, like, there's a very clear mapping out of a relationship, like you see on TV see on - yeah, like, what relationships should be and sometimes that's not always like, a healthy relationship, because that doesn't make good TV and, like with queer relationships, some - I mean, now moreso we're able to see more and more of that. But I mean, when we were growing up, we weren't able to see so much of that. And therefore, we had to form our own rules.
Renee Wong
Yeah, exactly.
Renee Wong
Like, we had to form our own like ways of figuring out what does this relationship look like? What roles are not roles that we play in each others' lives.
April Lee
Yeah, what we want to contribute each. And therefore ends up with a very authentic result of what we both genuinely have chosen. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I love that. And you mentioned asexuality as well. And you both - is it both identify as demisexual?
Renee Wong
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you want to kind of explain a bit about what that is? And like how you came to understand that identity for yourselves?
April Lee
Yes. Actually, I would like to know if you search this up. And if you have a definition, like a textbook definition.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, okay. With my like sex educator hat on I'd like define demisexual as on the ace spectrum, and it being that you don't experience sexual attraction until a romantic bond has been formed first.
April Lee
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Did I pass?
April Lee
Yeah, completely, I think. Yeah. And I think what's interesting is we both experience our demisexuality in different ways. And so understand how people of any sexuality experiences their sexuality in different ways. Yeah, so do you want to talk about how you came to know or experience your demisexuality? You've been...
Renee Wong
Yeah, I think I've had really good romantic partners, or sexual partners growing up, like, and I think one of the instances where I really- I hadn't realised I was a demisexual yet in that point of time, but looking back, it made it really, like solidified that, yeah, I am a demisexual, was when I was having a sort of friends with benefits situation, and it was escalating, like multiple times, but I never let the person fully - I mean, in a heteronormative way, penetrate me and go through homebase. And I was just always, what was the blockage there? Like? Because sexually and like physically, it felt good, but I was just - I had some sort of, like, "Mm, I don't necessarily want, like - "
April Lee
- to be joined with this person in this way.
Renee Wong
A friend. You didn't even kiss him, actually.
Renee Wong
Exactly. And I was like trying to deconstruct like, like, sex isn't about penetration, but I still was feeling like some sort of way about it. And I think looking back on hindsight, I realised that it wasn't necessarily the penetration part. It was more of just like, I knew deep down, like my body was telling me deep down, that I wasn't ready to have this sexual connection with this person. Even though I was so emotionally connected with them as a friend.
Renee Wong
Yeah.
April Lee
Even more so you didn't have a romantic attraction to him.
Renee Wong
Exactly, I think like - I think I just like was so emotionally connected with this person that I just misconstrued that as like being able to escalate further when I didn't have to. But I mean, like thank god like my friend was so - was such a great person, like he never like pushed me beyond my limits and therefore like yeah.
April Lee
Helped you find yourself a little bit.
Renee Wong
Helped me find myself a little bit better and explore sexuality without like, you know, anything like ruining our relationship almost.
April Lee
I made that mistake many times. Sleeping with my friends that I felt very emotionally connected to but didn't understand how to separate those feelings from sexual attraction, because once the body is turned on, it's turned on, right, but it doesn't mean that my heart or my head is in it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because desire is like different to attraction.
April Lee
Exactly. Exactly. So like for me if I'm not currently infatuated or in love with someone, I could go years without sex. Like I don't crave it or need - it's not a need that I need fulfilled, like to go out and fulfil it. It's pretty much a need that's dormant. That is fired up when I am fired up, like when my heart is fired up for someone. And she hasn't had sex in three years, and I just broke up with my boyfriend so it might be a while.
Hannah Witton
Oh, no.
Renee Wong
A lot of action.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So you've mentioned that you've like had a boyfriend? And so how does dating and like having romantic partners work in terms of like with your demisexuality but then also, with the partnership that you two have? Is that something that you're like, very upfront about immediately when you start dating people like, "Hey, I have my person and this is what the situation is?" And how, like, how do people respond to that? And like, logistically, what's going on there?
April Lee
Yeah, we're, we're figuring it out as we go. I mean, this past relationship, Renee has kind of seen a lot of it. I mean, she's - we share a studio apartment. So she's heard a lot of things.
Renee Wong
Trying not to, but it's inevitable.
April Lee
Yeah, we just figure it out, honestly. I mean, part of the reason why I broke up, and this honestly just happened a week ago, was because as I was approaching a year being together with this man, even though I had initially I told him that, you know, I have a platonic life partner, and Renee is like my partner forever, and like, I'm living with her and if I started a family will be with her and like, just making sure that he didn't want me to be a wife and a mother. And like he wasn't, he told me he wasn't looking for those things. But I think as the relationship progressed naturally, he just wanted me to be more and more part of his everyday life. And I very much want - like, I learned that I want to keep romance kind of separate from my mundane life. And that's -
Hannah Witton
So it's always really special.
April Lee
Yes, honestly, so it's always intentional. And I had to tell him - this was a very hard conversation = to tell him this, that hey, I might not be able to give you what you're looking for. Think about this, and think about your needs, and think about if I can fulfil them for you and if you still want to stay with me, and unfortunately, I think if I didn't break up with him, he loved me so much that he would have stayed with me, despite me not giving him what he wants. And that's why I had to.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, it's, it sounds like you did the right thing, because sometimes the person who can't give what the other person wants also stays. Because that's what's easy. So even though like, yeah, he might be hurt now, but, you know, hopefully, in the long run, he like finds what he's looking for.
April Lee
He'll thank me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Renee Wong
And I'm so proud of you for doing so like you said, like, you've probably made that mistake countless times before.
April Lee
I have.
Renee Wong
Yeah. And now that now that you really love and care for this person, you've been able to mature to know when it is a good time to let go of this because you don't necessarily meet each other's needs. It’s not because you don't love each other, it's just that -
April Lee
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you feel like being in a PLP helps to kind of alleviate some of the social pressures and expectations around dating?
April Lee
Completely.
Renee Wong
Yeah, completely. And just like it has opened us up to like the various like different kinds of dating as well. Like, like, because we have this PLP as a primary partner, like dating might never go beyond casual intimacy.
April Lee
Or it could, but it's really just the wild west right now in the sense that there's no rules anymore. Like we've like - we've broken like the ultimate rule, I feel. And so now it's just like, whatever we want. Let's just stay true to that. So it's just a journey that's super vast right now.
Renee Wong
Exactly, like allowing romantic connections to be romantic and like allow them to progress however, they naturally progress, while also making sure to constantly check in and talk about it, because we aren't following these milestones that are - that have been laid out previously.
April Lee
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you - I mean, you just said no rules. But do you have any boundaries with each other when it comes to exploring romantic relationships with other people?
April Lee
Oh, interesting.
Hannah Witton
Or is that something that you - that might come up in the future that you've not gotten to yet?
April Lee
Yeah, I don't think we - our love is like, our love is really free. So I don't think like we enjoy putting -
Renee Wong
- boundaries -
April Lee
- boundaries on each other's like separate journeys. We obviously have boundaries, like the healthy - you know, within
Renee Wong
- the relationship.
April Lee
Yeah, exactly.
Renee Wong
Yeah. But I mean, there - yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it is allowing each other to go on our separate journeys and have faith that -
April Lee
- we'll come back.
Renee Wong
Yeah, exactly, we'll come back to each other.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. What if you did like fall in romantic love with somebody who you did want to kind of share some of the the other like parts of partnership with like the cohabiting or the co parenting and their finances and stuff? Is that something that you're like? No, I can't imagine that ever happening at all or, like, open to and you'll navigate as and when things happen.
Renee Wong
Yeah, I think we've definitely talked about that possibility. Because you can't - you can't say that that will never happen with this romantic partner because you never know how feelings will develop.
April Lee
Exactly. I haven't felt it yet.
Renee Wong
Yeah, exactly.
April Lee
But we are open to it.
Renee Wong
And I think we've also talked about how like, making sure that if, if we do want to have that with our romantic partners, we need to have that conversation with ourselves as well with how would that fit into not just my life or her life, but -
April Lee
- combined.
Renee Wong
Yeah, yeah, combined lives as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Okay, so I've got a whole bunch of questions from folks on Instagram. And before we get to them, I want to just ask like: what advice do you have for people who maybe like have their person, they've got their best friend, and how do they start to try and figure out if a PLP is something that they want or like bringing up that conversation with their friend?
April Lee
I would just have, you know, really honest conversations where you just keep probing each other's mind and to why are you attracted to platonic life partnership? Making sure that it's not because you're just lonely right now or jaded from romantic relationships? Because basically, going into anything - like going into the platonic life partnership as a backup option wouldn't be empowering as much so as for us, it was the first choice. It was knowing like, No, I love romance. I'm like a fucking like, I'm a hopeless romantic. And I love men and I love like women, and I love my sexuality. But at the same time, like, Renee is like, the only person that makes me feel this alive. And so this is my first option. Like, it has to be that. Imagine if you had everything else you wanted in the world. Do you still want this person beside you? It doesn't matter if they're platonic or romantic. That's kind of just how you should decide on if this is your person, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that. Okay, onto the Instagram questions. Somebody asked: would you consider marriage/civil partnerships so that you'll have more rights in terms of wills/health care, etc?
April Lee
Yeah, I mean, answered this question a little bit earlier in the sense of like, choosing your own adventure, so yes and no.
Renee Wong
I mean like, if let's say down the line, and we have enough money, like, we would -
April Lee
Love to have a wedding!
Renee Wong
Yeah, we'd love to have some kind of ceremony.
Hannah Witton
A celebration!
Renee Wong
Exactly, we already have Pinterest boards.
April Lee
Of course we do, you know, of course.
Renee Wong
Exactly. It's fun doing stuff like that together,
Hannah Witton
I love that. I'm now just remembering that me and one of my best friends at uni created a Pinterest board for our wedding. I'm now just remembering that that happened. I probably still have it somewhere, I'm gonna have to -
Renee Wong
The two of your weddings?
Hannah Witton
No, our joint wedding to each other.
April Lee
Oh my god, that's beautiful.
Renee Wong
That's amazing!
April Lee
What happened to her? Are you still her friend?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we're still friends. I'm now married to someone else. And she's getting married to someone else. But we'll - we'll be attending each other's weddings. So yeah. I'm gonna have to dig up that Pinterest board. Um, somebody asked: are there any elements of exclusivity in your relationship?
April Lee
Oh. We're exclusively living with each other?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Renee Wong
Yeah, we really - like, even in the mundane, we, we fit very well with each other in terms of how we're complementary. Like, she cooks. I do the dishes. Simple things like that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so hard to find someone who you like mesh well with as a cohabiting partner. That is, ooh, yeah, that is something that is special.
April Lee
I have never ever felt this kind of synergy in the house with any my romantic partners, and I feel like I'm not necessarily moved in with them, but just you know, lived with them for, you know, staying over very frequently, like spending almost all my time with them, and I just never felt -
Renee Wong
- comfortable.
April Lee
Comfortable. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And you kind of already answered this, but I'd love to go into a bit more detail. Someone asked: are you considering co parenting together? And do you think it could work well?
Renee Wong
Well, right now we co parent our cat, Blue. And we realised that like we see a lot of our parenting tendencies come out with our - just our cat.
April Lee
Yeah. I'm like the - I'm like the you go get into all the trouble you want and then learn the lessons for yourself. And she's just like, no, no, no be safe, she's like helicopter mom.
Renee Wong
Yeah.
April Lee
So we balance each other out.
Renee Wong
I don't think we're ready for actual human child yet. Yeah. But it's, it's great to realise all these things that even with just like a cat.
April Lee
Totally.
Renee Wong
Like so that we are also working on ourselves regarding like that kind of parenting, like with a cat. And then I mean, obviously a human child is completely different, so.
April Lee
Yeah, we're both too selfish right now. And I think we deserve to be in our twenties to be -
Hannah Witton
Absolutely.
Renee Wong
And if we do co parent, it will probably be adoption. Like, we don't necessarily want to have our own like children or pregnancies.
April Lee
Right. Right. Right.
Renee Wong
And therefore, like, it's always an option in the future if ever felt the need or have like are called to becoming mothers.
April Lee
Exactly, we're not fighting our biological clocks anymore. So if we wanted a kid at 45, we'd do that. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's so true. This has made me think as well, on the kind of like, the legal side of things as well. I, I wonder, because I guess in the US, it's like probably state by state abortion laws and stuff. But I wonder if it would have to be like one of you as the legal guardian. Because you wouldn't be able to adopt together necessarily, unless you were married or in a civil partnership.
Renee Wong
I think that at that point if we were to have children, we would probably, like, have to probably get married, like to be able to raise -
April Lee
- exactly.
Renee Wong
- recognised by the law and have that like tax benefits and all those things for the child. Not necessarily for the partnership.
April Lee
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Basically, the moment we have to bring in the child, our entire lives will change and we'll have to put that child first. And that's why we're not going to have a child right now. But -
Hannah Witton
Cross that bridge when you get to it.
April Lee
Exactly, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, somebody has said: explaining my demisexuality to people often gets a "so you're normal then." What is a good response to this? Have you ever experienced that?
April Lee
So you're normal, then - that means you're talking to another demisexual?
Hannah Witton
That's what I thought!
April Lee
And that doesn't - that's interesting. It's very interesting. I think people a lot of the times assume that all women are demisexuals. Meaning all women need a romantic or emotional connection in order to feel good when they're having sex or like -
Hannah Witton
And that like no straight men are demisexual.
April Lee
Right, which is so false, because I know so many women who have, I don't know -
Renee Wong
- are so liberated with their sexuality in terms of just wanting to -
April Lee
- wanting sex for what it is with no strings attached at all. And I only want the strings attached before we have sex. So, so I don't know if that's normal. But I would say that a lot of people are demisexuals and haven't understood it fully.
Renee Wong
Yeah. So maybe they - you can like turn it back on them and be like, "Are you a demisexual?"
April Lee
Right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's such a good idea.
April Lee
Invite a conversation, yeah.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Somebody asked: if no desire - so they're not experiencing any sexual desire - how to tell if it's because of being demi, or something else that could be worked on?
Renee Wong
I have - I've been like, questioning that for the past three years, while I've like not been dating or having sex. And I think recently, I realised that, like, you know, there are - there are people that just spark a fire in you that that even if you haven't necessarily built any, like, romantic connection or emotional intimacy -
April Lee
- could be a stranger.
Renee Wong
- could just be a stranger. Like, you feel like that kind of attraction or connection. And, and I think from there, like, that's how I feel like, I would want to explore that connection in a more intimate way to potentially escalate into physical. But I do think like, sometimes there is that whole, like, "Oh, what if it is just an emotional connection." And you don't want to lead a person on romantically. But at the end of the day, I think it's just communicating with that person and letting them know, along every step of the way, what you are feeling. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm kind of imagining this situation where someone is, in a long term, like romantic and sexual relationship, and they didn't know they were demi getting into it. And now they're not experiencing any, like, sexual attraction to their partner, and they're like, "Is this circumstantial? Like, is there something happening in the relationship or with them that is making me not attracted to them. Or am I actually no longer attracted to them so the sexual attraction has also disappeared. Because I'm demi."
April Lee
Wow, no longer connected emotionally.
Hannah Witton
I'm now, like, I'm like, I have so many follow up questions.
April Lee
Okay, I actually have like, follow up stories.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, okay.
April Lee
I think I experienced kind of everything that you said like in my first relationship we were together on and off for like four or five years. And towards the end of that, I stopped feeling the desire to please him in bed. And I realised it was because emotionally we had gone through so much trauma that I was so disconnected from him that I no longer felt attracted to him, even though I loved him deeply as a person, and as a friend. And a second thing I want to bring up is: I think it is also tied to your physical health. So if you are, you know, like, how do you feel in your body right now? Is there other things, like have you been eating right? Have you been getting exercise? Have you been sleeping? The physical can also inform like the sexual, obviously. So if you're not feeling those things, take a look first at your own health and make sure that that's all good. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's a really good point. Somebody asked: from a demi tips on navigating a very sexual world and not getting overwhelmed?
April Lee
This is my journey right now. I think being very sure about what you want. And then everything else is noise. It becomes very clear to you - even when I flirt with people, because I'm - being a dummy, I enjoy flirting a lot. Flirting that leads nowhere. And I just have to admit that and just know that and so like, we went on San Diego, and we went on like a ghost tour. And I just hit on the tour guide for fun. And like, just for the heck of it. And know that it doesn't have to lead anywhere. And I don't have to feel pressured to follow up on those things. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, cuz it can feel like a very sexual world, especially with just the assumptions that everybody feels sexual attraction. Yeah. You two, this has been excellent. I absolutely loved chatting with you. And just hearing about your life and your choose your own adventure. Where can people find more about you online? And April, I know you talk a lot about PLPs on your social media. So go plug away!
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice. Yeah.
April Lee
Yeah, so you can find me on TikTok at psychottie. That's P S Y C H O T T I E. And that's also the name of my website, psychottie.com where I have all the articles and podcasts and, you know, interviews on platonic life partner, including my essay that I put on Refinery29 that kind of gives a more intimate view of how we formed our partnership. So yeah.
April Lee
Yeah. Thank you.
Renee Wong
Yeah. Thank you. This has been fun.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And thank you all so much for listening. Bye