Masculinities, Misogyny and Sex Ed for Boys & Young Men with Ben Hurst | Transcript
CW: brief mention of suicide
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I am joined by the brilliant Ben Hurst. Ben is an activist, educator, host, presenter, podcaster, model, public speaker and the head of facilitation and training at Beyond Equality, who are a UK based organisation that engages men and boys in the gender equality conversation, and they work across schools, universities, and corporate spaces.
Ben discusses these topics around gender equality online, most notably his TEDx talk, "Boys won't be boys. Boys will be what we teach them to be," and in print, and Ben's work focuses on dismantling the gendered stereotypes that men inhabit and encouraging them to explore their own relationships to masculinity. Ben is also a freelance diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) consultant and trainer and the co host of TEDx London's Climate Curious podcast.
I really wanted to get Ben on the podcast to hear all about the work he does with boys in dismantling concepts of masculinity and combating misogyny. We covered so much interesting stuff in this episode, starting off with Ben's own journey into this work growing up with three strong older sisters and realising that the messages he was getting about women from church was different to the messages he was getting at home, to then training as a pastor but getting kicked out for having sex, to moving into education and eventually starting to work for a sex education organisation and coming across Beyond Equality, where he still works now. We spoke about how young children absorb gender stereotypes so early on so when they reach the age that Ben starts working with boys, around 12/13 years old, they already come with so many ingrained ideas about what it means to be a man. Ben made a really interesting point about how when the current issue is such social prescriptiveness and boys being told what to be and do, it's not about telling them to be another way, but rather helping them to choose who they want to be. We talked about the sessions Ben runs and how porn is such a big topic that comes up and something that they focus on with the boys deconstructing the porn and talking about what is missing, from things such as explicit consent, contraception, and intimacy. We also spoke about the pressure to be interested in sex amongst peers, and how a lot of the work that they do is about normalising what people are into, whether that's them wanting to have sex, not wanting to, or really not knowing what they want, or not really thinking about sex at all. Ben also talked about how we teach boys about consent being something that they have to get, rather than something for them also to give.
We also talked about why Ben thinks we can't talk about masculinity without acknowledging it's different for different people, and how intersectionality is at the core of their work. Ben also told me about some of the work that he does with adults too, discussing sexual harassment, sexual violence, mental health, and masculinity in the workplace, and reimagining leadership and workplace culture that isn't following the dominant status quo. Ben also gave advice on how to deal with family members or partners or friends who still have misogynistic values, advice for teachers doing sex education with boys, and also how to help men understand how the patriarchy and misogyny harms men too.
Please note that we do briefly mention suicide in this episode.
And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, please leave us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really, really appreciated. I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode. Here's my chat with the incredible Ben Hurst.
Hello, Ben.
Ben Hurst
Hi!
Hannah Witton
Welcome!
Ben Hurst
Sorry, immediately take it over. Hi. Sorry. Hello. Nice to see you.
Hannah Witton
Nice to see you too. How you doing?
Ben Hurst
I'm good. I'm good. Am I good? I don't know. I feel like that's always a default response to the question "how you doing?" It's like, "I'm fine", but I think I am actually fine today.
Hannah Witton
It's true. And then move on!
Ben Hurst
Yeah, yeah. No, I think I'm all good.
Hannah Witton
That's good to know. You're all good, that's good to know.
Ben Hurst
Yeah. I could do with like some, some more food. But other than that - I feel like haven't had a substantial lunch today.
Hannah Witton
I'll try and remind you to sort that out when we're done.
Ben Hurst
Okay.
Hannah Witton
Because food is definitely important.
Ben Hurst
True. True story.
Hannah Witton
I'm really excited to chat with you. It's a topic that is so closely related to so many of the things that we talk about on this podcast, but we don't often, like really go head on into it, which is: masculinities. Like, what about the men? What about the boys? What are they up to? What's going on? And I feel like you're probably one of the best people to ask about that. So, first off, like, before we get into kind of like the work that you do at Beyond Equality, I'd love to hear kind of like, how you got to where you are now with your understanding of masculinity, gender equality. Like was that a journey for you? Or were you raised in quite a like, feminist household or not? Like, what was that like?
Ben Hurst
It was - it was super accidental, actually. So I -
Hannah Witton
Really?
Ben Hurst
Wow. Yeah, like I don't - I wouldn't say I was raised in like a particularly feminist household. So I've got three older sisters, my mum, and my dad. And I grew up in a family where we went to church. So we went to like evangelical, Pentecostal, Christian charismatic church. And that was like, an interesting dynamic. I guess what I learned from really early was like, the messages that I was getting about, women from my community were different to the messages I was getting about women from my house. And my sisters were always like, bigger than me, stronger than me smarter than me, like better than me at everything. I used to lose at like Super Mario and all of that kind of stuff. So it was, it was, it was -
Hannah Witton
The most important things.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow.
Ben Hurst
Yeah, all of the really, really big things that matter in life, I was not as good at. But I - I grew up in that kind of environment. And I never - I didn't think I ever really questioned anything. I just kind of took things as they came. I was like a pretty sporty kid. So I kind of got away with like just kind of flying under the radar a lot. Like I'd play with my sisters' Barbies and stuff, but like no one cared, no one really knew. And then when I was about 15, or 16, I had like a spiritual experience. And I decided that I was going to like devote my life to the Christian faith. And so I went to seminary for university and studied theology and youth work.
Ben Hurst
And then I got kicked out in my last year, because I had sex, which was like, super awkward.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow! That's a kickable-out offence?
Ben Hurst
Yeah. It was a really intense situation. Yeah, yeah. When you're when you're training to be a pastor it is. I don't know if it's fair that it is but that was the way it was. And so I kind of left Bible college not really knowing what it was that I was going to do. And two of my sisters were teachers at the time. So they were both like, "Well, go into education, you'll enjoy it," but I didn't want to study anymore. So I got a job as like a cover teacher, because I didn't have to qualify for it. And I did that for about two years until I started to hate kids. And then I was like, "Not doing this anymore." So I left that. And I went to a job for a sex education charity that was predominantly working in South London, doing just general sex ed stuff. And part of my projects there was to develop a boys project about being a good man. So I did that for about two years there. But I remember like sitting down to do this project. And like when I was applying for the job, I was like, it's easy. I've got this, I know how to do it. And then, like, I sat down on the first day and was like, oh, crap, like, what do you say to boys about being a good man? What even is a good man?
Hannah Witton
How do you be a good man? Yeah.
Ben Hurst
You know what I mean, I was like, what are we actually talking about here? And so I started doing some research and there were a bunch of guys that were like, encouraging boys to like go into the woods and chop down trees and - nothing that I disagree with, but I'm just not that type of guy. Do you know what I mean, like, I've got three older sisters, like I said, so I was like - I was really artsy kid. And a really sporty kid. So yeah, it didn't - it didn't fit for me. And then I guess - while I was researching -
Hannah Witton
You're lucky that you found the nature kind of masculinity, because if you went researching, like 'how to be a good man' on on the internet, like you could have found like Andrew Tate and the like.
Ben Hurst
Honestly. Listen, like on a serious level, it was really luck of the draw.
Hannah Witton
You know, like, 'let's go chop some wood.' Whilst it's like not my kind of masculinity, I'm still just like, "Oh, fair enough."
Ben Hurst
Yeah, it wasn't like - I didn't find like deep manosphere stuff. It was just kind of like, 'get in touch with primal masculinities' was the vibe. And then I came across the organisation I work for now. And they seemed like they had a really good project. So I contacted them. I was like, "Oh, can I have the resources?" And they said I could have the resources if I went to the training. So I went to the training. And it was like, for me, the first time that I was having those conversations as a man about like my own relationship to myself, like my mental health, my emotional literacy. And then the impact that like I have in the world as a man. And it was just framed in a way that I could understand. I don't really like cognitive dissonance. That's my big thing. When things don't make sense, I really struggle. But it helped me to make sense of all of the elements of like my experience. And also my experience as a person of colour and like all of those different kinds of facets of my identity kind of wrapped up in one thing. So I was like, "Oh, this is cool. I'll stay here." So I started volunteering. And that was how I got - and that was how I got into the conversation, which is like a really like round the houses kind of pathway.
Ben Hurst
Yeah. And you're right, it is kind of accidental. It's not like you went soul searching, because you're like, "There is a problem in society."
Ben Hurst
Not at all!
Hannah Witton
It was just like, yeah.
Ben Hurst
Lucky, lucky.
Ben Hurst
Yeah, you were like, "Oh, I'm just blissfully unaware of this thing."
Ben Hurst
Yeah. Super convenient.
Hannah Witton
That's really interesting. Do you want to tell us a bit about - because at the time, it was Good Lad Initiative, wasn't it, and now Beyond Equality.
Ben Hurst
Yeah. Well, it was The Great Initiative when I first joined.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay.
Ben Hurst
Yeah, we have like a real like branding crisis.
Hannah Witton
A history.
Ben Hurst
Yeah, where we always get our names wrong. They're always like good for one group of people, but not good for everyone. So Beyond Equality is an organisation that works in schools and universities and corporates, engaging in men and boys in the gender equality conversation through the lens of masculinities. So we work like across sectors and across forums, but essentially always doing the same thing, which is just trying to get guys to have the conversation in ways that are like fun, engaging, interactive. And usually, what's interesting about it is that these are conversations that most men have not had before. Like the first time I had it, I'd never had that conversation before. And I think it was like handled in a way where it was like accessible and easy, and it didn't feel like I was getting in trouble. But it also felt like I had a real opportunity to process stuff. So that's what we do. And I work as the head of facilitation. So I do facilitation all across the board and try and do like making sure everybody else is doing good facilitation as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What so - what - you go into schools? What age do you mostly work with?
Ben Hurst
So secondary schools from year eight up. So 12 and above. All the way up to - so we do all the way through school from that age onwards, and then we do any age in university and then any age obviously in corporate? Yeah, we try not to be ageist, but we have to discriminate against the little ones. We don't - I don't know if we know yet or we have the resources yet to do a good job of that.
Hannah Witton
I would really hope that there would be some people doing that, or some like research out there. Because I was gonna say like, do you find that with like, the 12/13 year olds in year eight, like, even at that young age, there's so much unlearning that they have to do because by that age, they've already absorbed like so many ideas about gender, about what it means to be a boy, a man, about what what women are supposed to be like as well, about sex. Like do you - do you sometimes go in and you're just like, "Shit, we've got a lot of work to do with these guys."
Ben Hurst
I mean, literally every time we're in there there's a lot of work to do but it's so interesting because I've got six nieces and one nephew now, which is good. He's like seven months old so I always forget that he exists but I've got six nieces.
Hannah Witton
Ah, my little baby is - he's - my little baby is five and a half months old so.
Ben Hurst
Ah, you're still - you're still in like I don't know if that's like the honeymoon phase or the nightmare phase. But you're in a phase, you're definitely in a phase.
Hannah Witton
I'm in a phase. Everything is a phase.
Ben Hurst
The phase but yeah, it's really interesting like observing them because they pick that stuff up at like four years old. Do you know what I mean, like, as soon as - literally as soon as they can talk they have solid ideas of like what boys are and what girls are and what boys are supposed to do and girls was supposed to do.
Hannah Witton
It's scary how young it is that they get a concept of gender.
Ben Hurst
Yeah, and they - all my nieces are like, "Boys are disgusting, they smell, they play with worms." And I'm like, "You don't even know any boys." Do you know what I mean, like, they haven't actually like met that many boys but I think they just get these ideas from like Horrid Henry and Peppa Pig and stuff of like what gender is and how it functions.
Hannah Witton
"Have you ever even seen a boy? Have you ever even seen a worm?"
Ben Hurst
"Do you actually know any worms?" But yeah, they - so when we're in schools, I think that kids have really deeply internalised that stuff. And I don't know if there is like without a massive overhaul of society as a whole, I don't know if there's a way we can stop people from like having scripts about what people are supposed to be, like, I think like bias is coming from - often like from self preservation or like protection or like just things that you observe around you. But I do think the thing that we are lacking is like kids having the critical skills to analyse the information that they've been given, and so that's what we really try and lack focus in on is like not necessarily telling them - I think the one of the big problems is that the narrative is so prescriptive, do you know what I mean? So we tell boys that they are supposed to be this way. And I don't know if the solution is telling them to be another way. I think it's more just you can decide who you want to be in the world and based on like what impact you're having on other people, so. Yeah, trying to give them that skill set to like have those conversations I think is important.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What does like a typical session with the kind of like the secondary school age stuff look like? Like what's like your favourite activity to do with them?
Ben Hurst
My favourite. Anything that's chaotic is fun. So we do like a - we do like a word race activity, which is like a version of like a relay race and a word association game in one. So they run to like the board and write down as many words that they can associate with a topic. And it's usually like breakfast, and then men, and then women. And they just say like anything you can think of is what they would say like, it's just stupid. But then the interesting bit is the deconstruction bit afterwards. So like going through all of the words, once you've like, tallied up the points and stuff, and given the points for like most interesting word. I think the cool bit is why we think those things or where those things come from. And the analysis of that is really, really interesting, which is like a really, really cool way to start off a session. I also really like introductions, because I feel like I spend way too long in introductions every time but I feel like it's important to like set the precedent that you can say whatever you want, and we're gonna listen to you and we're not just looking for the right answers. So we talk about like superheroes and stuff and whatever they're into, Love Island or whatever's good, for like a good half an hour to start. But that's - yeah, I think any kind of activity that is a lot of running around and a lot of opinions is always fun.
Hannah Witton
Have there ever been like opinions that have shocked you? Or are you just like unshockable, do you think, at this point?
Ben Hurst
I like to think of myself as unshockable. Sometimes, I guess there are like rare occasions where I'm a little bit rattled. But that's mostly like when I'm hearing slang that I've not heard before. Like when they're saying things, and I'm like, "What is that?"
Hannah Witton
Okay, yes.
Ben Hurst
Or sometimes in the conversations around porn. It's really interesting, because they're talking about things that you've just never - you never knew existed, do you know what I mean, like, I think they're accessing so much stuff. And so in those conversations, sometimes it's like, a little bit of a, "Oh" my gosh, what is that?" But other than that, no, I feel like once you've done it for a couple of years, like you come to expect everything. The best - the best thing is to, like expect the unexpected. So like to expect to be shocked. And then you're not - you're never shocked, do you know what I mean.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're just like, "Oh, what's a normal day of talking to some year eights about porn."
Ben Hurst
Yeah. Just everyday settings, do you know what I mean. It's normal.
Hannah Witton
What are those like porn conversations like? Because I think, I mean - as far as I know, could be totally wrong - my baby is a boy, but TBC. And so there's obviously like, a lot that comes to mind when thinking about like, raising a young boy in this society. And one of those things is like, okay, when he gets to an age where maybe he wants to start watching porn, and like, what, what is going on with young boys and porn? Because I feel like it's such a like hot topic where there's a lot of like fearmongering, a lot of stigmatisation, a lot of "won't somebody think of the children," "won't somebody think of women and girls," like there's there's a lot going on there. Like what - I'm curious as to like what your take is. Are you optimistic? Are you scared?
Ben Hurst
I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic, as long as we can keep having the conversations, I think. Basically, I think it boils down to: kids are accessing porn. And that's not all kids, like some kids are super not into it, some kids don't care, some kids are like not interested in sex at all. But I think one way or another, they're seeing stuff, whether that's like when they're reading comics on the internet, and they're seeing pop ups, or like their friends are sharing stuff in WhatsApp groups, or they are looking for things for themselves. Most kids have been exposed to some kind of pornography by the age of 11. And so, I think that that is - I feel like we're moving like culturally from a point of like trying to ignore it and pretend it's not happening to a point of acknowledging that it's happening, and figuring out how to safeguard them against it. And again, I think it comes down to like the critical analysis of it. So whenever we're having conversations about porn, we're always talking about what is real and what is not. So like, kind of demystifying the whole thing. Like, this is entertainment for adults. There is an industry built around it. Like, none of the stuff that you're seeing is real in terms of like people are acting, or they're, they're performing. So it's not like a real demonstration of real life intimacy between two people, or however many people that are consenting to sex. There's that money involved, there's power involved. What does that do? What's the impact of all of that?
And then, like, a more ground level analysis of like, what are the things that we see in porn that we believe are normal that are not? And what are the things that are missing? So like, which kinds of sexual acts might be more risky? What does porn teach us about pregnancy? What does porn teach us about contraception? What doesn't it teach us about those things? How do we like form relationships? How do we get consent before? How do we continuously check in and make sure we're always getting consent throughout? And all of those kinds of conversations. And I think that kids are just super confused. Do you know what I mean, like, I feel like it's - I feel like it's really confusing. I feel like porn, especially because of the way it's presented, suggests that there is a right way to have sex. And it's one way of doing it, and you have a role and other person or people have roles as well. But trying to like free them from that -
Hannah Witton
And especially if you're accessing before you've had any of your own sexual experience, yeah, you're right, it can be this really confusing thing. Because like, if you've had some like, you know, teenage fumbling, who knows what you're doing, confusing, like, oops did I just stand on your toe, I don't know, kind of experiences. And, and then you see porn, you have like - you have a point of reference to be like, well, that's not what we did.
Ben Hurst
What happened.
Hannah Witton
That's not my experience. Yeah. But then if you don't have a point of reference, that's in reality, then yeah, I guess it can be quite difficult.
Ben Hurst
Yeah. It's one of the big questions, right, is like, why do we think - or we always ask the boys why they think the age of consent is 16 but the age that people are allowed to watch porn is 18. And obviously -
Ben Hurst
I know, right? I don't know - I don't know if the actual reason is what we suggest it is to them. I don't know if it is maybe just like a mistaken legislation or something. But I think it's an interesting conversation to have. Because the conclusion they usually arrive at is, "Oh, you're probably meant to try stuff before you see stuff." So you're meant to like, have your own experiences and figure stuff out. And human bodies have always worked that way, right? Like, if you never see porn in your life, you will figure it out. Or you'll figure out based on like pleasure, based on communication, what the other person's feeling, what they like, what they want, what they don't want, you figure out what's supposed to happen. Yeah, you get there eventually.
Hannah Witton
You'll get there. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I've never thought about this!
Ben Hurst
But yeah, I think that's always an interesting question to ask them, because it kind of gets them thinking of, "Oh, yeah, maybe this is - maybe we're doing it the wrong way around."
Hannah Witton
In the wrong order.
Ben Hurst
Yeah, like, and it's tough, because it has a big impact, I think. It really makes them believe that there's a right way to do it. And often what is depicted is not the way that most people enjoy things being done. So I think that's an important conversation to have, and things like violence. Yeah, sexual violence, all of those kinds of conversations, like incredibly important for us to be having. But it's always - it's awkward, especially as a British person, because we just don't really talk about sex. We find it so awkward. So like, how do you how do you have that conversation with a 12 year old. Always makes me feel bad for like geography teachers, you have to do PSHE because I feel like if you like geography, and you studied geography, and you want to teach geography, you don't want to talk to kids about sex. So we try and do the job for them. We try and make it a little bit easier for all of the teachers who don't want to do it.
Hannah Witton
I was wondering because you were saying like, about the - how some kids obviously aren't interested in sex, and that's totally fine. Is there like, an expectation amongst peers for like you to be interested in sex?
Ben Hurst
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Massively.
Hannah Witton
Maybe if you're like not having it. Yeah.
Ben Hurst
And I think, I'm not sure - I can't remember the percentage, but I know there's some kind of statistic which is like a majority of young people are lying about having had sex before the age of 18. So I think everybody thinks the statistic is way higher than it actually is because everybody's pretending.
Hannah Witton
Was that across all genders?
Ben Hurst
Yeah, across all genders. And I think there is this big like, schema in society of like men are supposed to want to have sex. So boys have internalised that. That's one of the messages they get from really early, like, any film you watch, any music you listen to, will tell you that you're supposed to be having sex. And there's really no representation for like anybody who's not. So I think they all feel internally and then from their peers, and often, like from their community as well, that they're supposed to be wanting to do stuff. But I think it's just like the normalisation of like whatever you're into is cool. Like, if you do want to do stuff, you're normal, that's fine. And if you don't, you're also normal, and that's fine. And if you're anywhere in between, that's also like a normal part of the teenage experience. And you can chill like, you don't need to worry.
Hannah Witton
Just chill.
Ben Hurst
Just relax, you know what I mean.
Hannah Witton
I was just thinking, yeah, about like, media examples where there's like men who aren't interested in sex or aren't having sex and like the only thing or the first thing that popped into my head was 40 Year Old Virgin. But that entire film is about sex.
Ben Hurst
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, he just hasn't had it butt he still wants to, and like the whole film revolves around him wanting to. So that - I don't think that - I don't think we can count that one.
Ben Hurst
I think 40 Year Old Virgin is a really good example of like that actual state of play, right, for like people that don't want to have sex, the kind of pressure that they feel. It's like, everybody's like, "Are you having - why are you not having sex? You should be having sex. Here's how you have sex. We can get sex for you." And yeah, it's a pretty intense environment. And I think it's one of those things that we also normalise. Like, I think we expect that from boys. We expect them to like make dirty jokes and say rude things and be watching sending around bad stuff on their phones. And so yeah, I think part of the demystification of that is is important for them to be able to like just breathe a little bit. And another thing I think is important in that is that we don't teach boys about consent in terms of them being agents in the conversation. Like we teach them that consent is something that you have to get from other people, but we never have conversations with them about whether they are giving consent to stuff. And consent isn't just about -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you just make the assumption that like they're going to be into it.
Ben Hurst
Yeah. And it's not just about physical - like the physical act of sex, right? It's about conversations that you're having, like environments that you're in, things that you feel comfortable with. So how do they exercise their own consent around expectations of their libido? Which is weird, because they're like, 11. So we should just leave them alone, do you know what I mean?
Hannah Witton
But but also, with - when it comes to teenagers, there's like huge potential to have conversations about consent that aren't based around sex. If you think about, like, going to parties and drinking and like clubs and activities and sports you're doing or interested in, and the things, the people you want to hang out with, and the things that you want to do, like, consent plays into all of those different interactions.
Ben Hurst
Yeah. And school is the perfect place to have that conversation. I think because they're because they're so often in an environment where their consent is not prioritised. Like, we don't actually care about what they want to do, do you know what I mean?
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah.
Ben Hurst
We're just like, we drop you off in the morning, you're here, you do what you're told for the day. You have to ask permission to like go to the toilet and stuff, do you know what I mean?
Ben Hurst
So it's a pretty intense environment with not a lot of consent. So it's not surprising that the way we institutionalise kids, they get to 18 and haven't figured it out for themselves. And I remember going to uni and being like, oh, there's no rules.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ben Hurst
Haven't like asked themselves like how would I - like, how would I spend my time? If I had full control and autonomy over like what I got to do with my time and my body right now?
Ben Hurst
Yeah. "If I didn't have double science this period, what would I be doing?" Yeah, I think important questions for them.
Hannah Witton
So much double science. Always.
Ben Hurst
All of the double science.
Hannah Witton
It was constantly, I swear.
Ben Hurst
Too much.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to ask you, because at the beginning, you mentioned like when you did your, your training, and one of the things that came up for you was about like the intersections of your identity as a man and also a man of colour. And are those conversations that ever come up with the young people that you work with, like at, you know, secondary school, but then also like university and adults you work with as well - like maybe especially in the workplace too - when it comes to like intersections of gender and race, sexuality, like, ability, all of those things, do they - are those conversations that you're able to have? And obviously like when it comes to like school sessions as well, like, do you have the time to have?
Ben Hurst
It's a good question. No, we don't have the time. But I think that that idea of like intersectional feminism underpins all of our work and so it is a conversation - I don't think we can have the conversation around masculinity or around masculinities without the acknowledgement that is different for different people. And by virtue of like working with groups of people that is always in the room. So like schools, it's not as pronounced. There's not like a section where we're like, now we're gonna talk about intersectionality. But I think like, depending on where you're working, and who you're working with, there's always going to be a conversation about which things are normal, like when we're talking about like ideas around heteronormativity, or white supremacy or whatever - we might not use those terms in the sessions - but there is an understanding, a collective understanding, of there are things that we think are normal, and okay. And then there are other things. And so centering those other things in the conversation, I think, is important. And when I did my training like that, for me, was the first time that I'd ever had those conversations around power and privilege. And those are conversations that we're having in workplace environments, and in universities, around like who in our society gets what and why. And privilege not necessarily as like something that makes a person a bad person, but just something that exists that prioritises some of us over others, and how we use those privileges to level that playing field or to like dismantle that structure that gives us priority over other people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because I feel like some like the conversation around privilege, I feel like that word sometimes like triggers a lot of like defensiveness in people, like you said, like, they're assuming they're being told that they're a bad person. Just because of like, who they are and the way that they were born. Yeah, I'm curious about the workplace stuff and like, with adults, especially, I guess, because, like, with the Me Too movement, but then also like the Black Lives Matter movement, and like everything over the last kind of like five years that's been happening -when it comes to adults, like, what are the conversations that happening there? Is it less fun? Or do you still get to kind of have fun in those sessions?
Ben Hurst
Adults, like I tell you one thing, when you put adults in a room, and you give them structure, they revert to like their 14 year old selves anyway, so it's almost exactly the same as working with kids.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, love it.
Ben Hurst
But the conversations are really interesting. Usually the big thing is just a lot of fear. People just don't want to be cancelled, which is a weird thing, because I always thought that cancellation was like a celebrity thing. I didn't think like happened to people in their workplaces, but they seem to be really scared of it, of like getting in trouble for having an opinion. And then it turns out when you dive into it, usually the opinions aren't even like that controversial or that bad at all. But I think there are - in our workplaces, we do stuff around like the foundations of allyship, what it looks like to show up for other people, what masculinities looks like in the workplace, which things we like prioritise, which things we view as bad, things which like stereotypes or behaviours we attribute to people, and what people should be allowed to have, like if we could reimagine a version of leadership or a version of workplace culture that wasn't just based on the dominant thing that exists at the moment, what would that look like? And then conversations around like sexual harassment, sexual violence, and those kinds of things in the workplace. Because I think all of those things are - and mental health is a big workplace conversation as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ben Hurst
But I think the thing for adults is that - and this was in my own experience, as well - was that once you leave school, or if you go to university, once you leave university, the time for learning is really over. Do you know what I mean, like, there's not really very many forums anymore, where you get to explore things or think about things in new ways. And most of us didn't have these conversations when we were in school, so then we just never have them. So I think allowing people the spaces to have them is what takes precedence in those sessions. But with a kind of framework of like this is how we can move towards something better, or how do we like collectively reimagine a world that we would all like to live in that would be beneficial for everyone? And I think most people are like super receptive to it. Most people like 90 - 90 something percent are like super into it and then there's always that 1% whose like, "Why are we here? I don't want to do this. This is stupid."
Hannah Witton
"Why are we doing DEI training?"
Ben Hurst
They hate it, they hate it. But they come around at the end.
Hannah Witton
Do they? That's good.
Ben Hurst
We have - again, we do really good introduction. So they love it.
Hannah Witton
Do - there's the same tool that I was taught for like for sessions like that, where in the introductions - I can't remember who came up with this so I can't take credit but like, I don't know if you do a similar thing, but also feel free to use it - where you kind of asked people at the beginning, like, are they a local, a tourist or a prisoner, which essentially means like, if they're a local, they're there in the session, they're like, "I know this shit. I got this, like, this is my jam. Come at me, I'm ready. I love this." And then the tourist is like, "Oh, let's see what's happening. Like, I wonder what's going on in that conference room. I guess I'll like nip in and see what the situation is. And I don't know what to expect. We'll see." And then the prisoner is somebody who, like somebody has gone "you have to go to this training" and they're like "oh, for fuck's sake." But then if you actually like, ask people, "Why are you here?" And allow them to be like, "I have to be here. Like, I don't want to be but I have to be here." Apparently - so I've heard it like, kind of like chills out the room a bit? Because everyone's like, "Okay, right. We're all on a similar page now."
Ben Hurst
"Oh, they know that we don't want to be here." Yeah,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Rather than it just like being this like tense thing.
Ben Hurst
Yeah. No, I've never - I've never used that. But it sounds like a really good idea. I'm gonna try it in my next workshop, I think. Because I think -
Hannah Witton
Let me know how it goes!
Ben Hurst
Yeah, it like brings up the elephant in the room, right. I always feel like that's the best thing to do as early as possible to like - I always just start by asking people if they know why they're here. And usually like then you find out that 20% of the room or 50% of the room have no idea what's going on, which is like a better space to start from. "They just told me to come so I'm here."
Hannah Witton
"It was in my calendar, and I just showed up. I've no idea what this is." Yeah. Right, Ben, we've got a bunch of questions from folks on Instagram, and I want to get into as many of them as possible. Somebody has asked: how do you tackle boyfriends and male friends who still hold toxic views towards women?
Ben Hurst
Drop them out. No, I'm joking. That's not good advice. But I do - I do think how to handle them is a tough one. So I'm watching - do you watch Married at First Sight?
Hannah Witton
I have not.
Ben Hurst
Oh, I'm watching Married at First Sight at the moment. And there's a really good example of this in in Married at First Sight where there's one dude who's like, just super misogynistic, and his wife is, like, doesn't know how to handle it. And everybody is like screaming at this guy but he just never learns. And I think that there's something interesting in that, because I think for most of us, our reaction to things that we don't like is to like shout them down, or to like have conversations where we challenge people. But there's - I should know the science behind this, I don't know it - but there's a part of your brain that like when you feel defensive shuts down your ability to reason and so you can't have a conversation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, or be open to like new ideas as well. Yeah.
Ben Hurst
I think that so many people, when they get into these conversations for the first time, find themselves in that space where they can't process new information, they can't hear another person's perspective at all. So I think like having some like icebreaker conversations, questions about - we always ask questions, like, when was the first time you became aware of your gender? Or what did you learn from your same sex parent or carer or role model when you were growing up? And I think that those kinds of conversations are really easy ways of like diving into quite deep topics and picking out bits that like are important. And I think - like calling people out and calling people in is is also important. I'm not saying don't call people out when they say bad stuff. But I think when it's somebody that like is close to you or somebody that you have love for, you've got to be prepared to go on a bit of a journey with that person. Which, which is sometimes like long and difficult.
Hannah Witton
It's not going to be like, "Oh, just say this one thing to them - like say this one thing to them and, then, like, quick fix."
Ben Hurst
"Just make them read this book, and then they'll change their mind forever." Although there are some really good books that you could recommend to them. I'd say like Laura Bates has got some really good books that help people to, I think, understand the state of play from a different person's perspective. Yeah, I think there are there are a bunch of like - if you've got any - your hands on any bell hooks books, I think those are also good books to like, get people into a place where they're reading but they're not reading to like be told that they are wrong. They're reading to get help about like their - or to expand their worldview about what's happening and what other people's experiences are.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ben Hurst
So I think the more you can do that is like the the better it will be in like having those conversations, but it is a really difficult thing to do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And kind of on a similar point. Somebody asked: how to show boys the positives of not being a misogynist?
Ben Hurst
Yeah, yeah. Do you know what, it sounds like a silly question, but it's not a silly question. And the reason it's not silly, is because that's literally all they see, do you know what I mean, like, when you look at the world around you, all you see is the benefits of misogyny, which is that men get all of the food, men get all of the money, men get to do what they want, they have all of the power. And obviously, again, that's not all men in society. But I think, for me, the first time I had this conversation, the big thing that like opened the door in my mind was the exploration of how masculinity is linked to bad outcomes for men. And therefore, how misogyny is linked to bad outcomes for men, right? Like the fact that we see ourselves as rational and logical and not emotional and in control and dominant and strong and in charge, and we see women as the opposite of that, means that we always rely on women to do those pieces of work for us, like carry our emotions, help us process things. And we don't know how to do it by ourselves.
And actually, one half of that is that that's a real burden for women to carry, like, it's unfair that somebody else has to do all of that unpaid work. But the other side of it is that that's a crap outcome for you as a guy, do you know what I mean, like, it's not a great space to be in. And then it's linked to like men's mental health statistics, so suicide being the lead killer of men under the age of 55. Why is that happening? And I think it's really easy to figure out why it's happening. But how do we challenge it? And I think the only way we can challenge it is by deconstructing that version of masculinity that exists that says, "You're not allowed to be vulnerable, you're not allowed to be weak, you're not allowed to ask for help." So I think, yeah, for men, I would say exploring how that version of like patriarchy or those norms kind of harm us as well. And then having the rest of the conversation after you've done that first bit, I think is a good kind of pathway through.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What are some of the positives of not being a misogynist?
Ben Hurst
You have better mental health, you have better friendships, you have better relationships if you're in relationships with women. There are so many things, do you know what I mean, like your health will be better, you'll go to the doctor more, you will learn to like - one of the things I think is wild is that my dad still doesn't know how to use a washing machine. And he's like, seventy years old. Do you know what I mean, which is like - like, fam, you need to know how to like, take care - you need to know how to cook, how to clean, how to do all of those things that we assume are women's jobs.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ben Hurst
And often, that misogyny is not coming from a space of hating women. It's coming from a space of like, "This is what I've been taught, or this is what I believe is right." But it's still harms everyone that's involved in it. So I think yeah, allowing people to like shift the frame from like, doing something wrong and there being consequences to like there is freedom outside of this model that we're given of living in.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. You saying that people who think that often are not coming from a place of hating women, just like my brain automatically thought about people who believe really strongly believe that like men and women have certain roles, and like, they're kind of like the natural roles that they have and then will say "I love women, I love like my wife, I've got such a deep respect for women." It gives me such an ick.
Ben Hurst
It is disgusting!
Hannah Witton
It just like made me think of it. It is so gross. And I'm like, but yeah, so for them. It's not coming from a place of like what would look outwardly like as hating women. But it's kind of like hating any woman that doesn't fit in that box, so.
Ben Hurst
And a lot of it is also self hatred. I mean, like that, I think that's the really - like, the thing for me that's really sad about it when I'm having these conversations is that so much of this stuff is like behaviour that has been policed by your parents when you were children. You were told not to stand that way or not to hold your wrist that way or not to talk like that. Because if you talk like that boys will think this about you or girls will think this about you. And so much of those norms and roles that we attribute to people just come from our own versions of being told that we have to be those things. So I think, yeah, the more we can like give people options and like, open up the floor for like, if you had to pick from this list of 10 characteristics, which ones would be the best ones and which ones would you want to have? Rather than it being like you're biologically predisposed to not care about other people to like bully people or whatever. Do you know I mean, there's just weird things that we have in our minds of how we're supposed to be.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I want to ask this question because it's come from a teacher, and they've said: tips for sex ed for teenage boys?
Ben Hurst
Tips for sex ed. Go to the Brook website. There are some good resources on there. I think there's a lot of good free stuff that you can access on the internet at the moment where it will teach you how to have those conversations or at least give you the framework for having the conversations. But I would say the best tips I can give are one, never let them see you sweat. And that doesn't mean that you like always have to know the answer or you have to pretend that like you're the fount of knowledge. But I just think like, especially when you're working with boys, they want to shock you, they want you to - they want to see a reaction when they're saying stuff. Most of the time, they're not even saying things because they really believe it. They're just trying to wind you up. So like, always asking the question why.
Hannah Witton
But if you can say anal sex with a straight face -
Ben Hurst
Yeah, or if you can can say anal sex and like, have a giggle about it, but not be like, "No, don't, you're not allowed to say that. That's - stop being silly." Like I think it gives you a lot more space to like operate and navigate some conversations. The other piece of advice I'd give is always give young people the benefit of the doubt. I would say always treat any question that they're asking as though they are being genuinely inquisitive, and do your best job of like answering that question, regardless of like how cringe it is, or how stupid it is, or how embarrassing it is. Like questions about like, how big is the average penis size? Or like, do condoms make sex feel worse? Or like, can you use cucumbers during sex? Whatever it is, like, even if it is a question that's coming from a silly space, there's real value in like, just having those conversations. So I'd say yeah, try and try to not look like shocked. And always treat them as though they are genuinely trying to explore the topic, and you'll probably have a great time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think that's really great advice as well. Because I was gonna say, when I did some RSE training, one of the exercises that they had us do was a whole bunch of different like words associated with sex and sex acts. And then there was a 60 second timer, and you had to talk about that thing for 60 seconds, like describe it, or just chat about it, whatever. And it's so difficult to talk about anal sex for 60 seconds straight, like monologuing about it. And you also just, you know, like, try - obviously, you can have a laugh with it and stuff. But the the literal point of the exercise was so that if you are ever in a situation where they're like, "What's oral sex?" then you can be like, "Well!" But you know, like, you have the - you're not going to be like, "Oh god, like, oh, no, what do I say?" And like, yeah.
Ben Hurst
Yeah, it's important. And I think, like, even for adults, like most of us don't know what we're talking about. Do you know what I mean, when it comes to sex, and sexual acts, and things that are happening, and like things that like when it comes to like, understanding human biology and understanding pleasure, and all of those kinds of things, like we talk about kids as if they're in this like category of being novices. But most people - until I did training for like teaching sex ed, I literally had no idea about any of what was going on. Like, I didn't understand how a period worked, or what the purpose of it was. Like, I had a general knowledge. But like, I think to view it as like, none of us are experts in it, and allow everybody the opportunity to like figure it out together is like a nice way of approaching it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I love that. And on that note, Ben, thank you so much. This has been an absolute joy and pleasure. Please share with our lovely listeners where they can find more about you and Beyond Equality and all the work that you do.
Ben Hurst
This is always the moment where I realised that I'm not a part of the comms department. And I don't, I never know their socials for the organisation -
Hannah Witton
Google -
Ben Hurst
- but I think our social are - google Beyond Equality! You can find us on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter, and wherever else you use social media @beyond_equality. And then you can find me @thereabenhurst across platforms. And shoot me a DM if you want to chat about anything or if you have any questions or any of that kind of stuff. We'd love to chat more with everyone who's listening.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that. Thank you. And yeah, and thank you all so much for listening. Goodbye.