Teaching About Sexting and Consent in Schools with Dolly Padalia and Nathaniel Cole | Transcript
CW: discussion of sexual assault and consent
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
I'm also not the best person for that job. You know, with my vulva and my lady brain.
Nathaniel Cole
Erm, I think it's -
Hannah Witton
I just undid twenty years of feminism. (Everyone laughs)
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, hello. Welcome back to Doing It. I'm Hannah, and I'm really excited to introduce you to my guests this week. Guests, plural, there's two of them. Whoo, very exciting. But before I do that, just a quick reminder that you can vote for Doing It in the best podcast category for the Global Awards. If you head to global.com/awards, go to the podcast category, and you can vote for Doing It Much much appreciated. So my guests this week are Dolly Padalia and Nathaniel Cole. Dolly is a director at Sexplain, who provide comprehensive and inclusive sex and relationships education for young people, in the UK. They cover all areas including contraception, sexual health and pleasure, anatomy, porn, gender, and sexuality, consent, and healthy relationships, literally, all of it. They do it from an intersectional feminist, non binary, and sex positive perspective. And they work with young people, health professionals, and researchers to build programmes that are inclusive, accurate, and reflect the education needs in 2020. And Nathaniel Cole works with Sexplain, delivering workshops to young people. He is a researcher, workshop facilitator, and writer that explores masculinity, mental health, and education. He also works with the Good Lad Initiative, and they talk to young men and boys about what they think being a man is, and they offer guidance about the type of men that they can be. And not only empower them, but also encourage equal gender relationships. We chat about so much in this episode. We talk a lot about sexting, about masculinity, young men and feminism, and sex positive parenting. This was such an interesting conversation. I love these two, I love what Sexplain are doing, and the Good Lad Initiative. All of these links will be in the shownotes, and I hope you enjoy this episode. Dolly, Nathaniel, thank you so much for joining me.
Dolly Padalia
Thank you for having us.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, you're welcome.
Hannah Witton
So welcome to be in your presence. Um, I want to chat about so much sex ed stuff with you guys. First of all, how did your Sexplain conference go?
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, it went really well. It was really exciting. We had a great turnout, didn't we, Nathaniel. You did a talk as well.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, it seemed like a full house.
Hannah Witton
What did you talk about?
Nathaniel Cole
Well I was, I was, I was roped in at the last minute. So no, for one of them, I sat on the panel about pornography and -
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice,
Nathaniel Cole
- and how that's kind of, I think the changing landscape of pornography at the moment. And then the other one, that was pre arranged properly, was the we're talking about sex and nudes amongst young people. And some research that we did over the last year, going into schools and asking kids essentially why they do it. And their reasons why -
Hannah Witton
Oh, why do they do it?
Nathaniel Cole
Erm, it's, it's, I always say it's really hard to be a kid now, there's so much more like rules to play by so some of it is just a part of that trading that people do when they're growing up to like, say, like, before it would have been dating. And it's just a new another aspect to it. I think what I did bring up was that if they're socially isolated in real life, then that extends online, so only certain kids are going to be able quote unquote able to participate in like sending the sex and nudes and stuff. And then also, and then that kind of bred a resentment -
Hannah Witton
Is most of the like, sharing of sex and nudes and stuff, is most of that like in private messages, or in group chats?
Nathaniel Cole
So it's both. So it's private messages, so from one aspect, it goes very slut shamey really quickly. So it's like, for me what I experienced was doing the hetero boys want like would want nudes, really, really want them to get them and be like, I've got that and then afterwards -
Hannah Witton
Like they've got to collect them all.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, and then afterwards, like the, you know, whoever they got from is just worthless. Yeah. So.
Hannah Witton
Wow, yeah, from zero to slut shame.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, yeah. So and then it's like this thing to show off thing. And then also it, we noticed that boys felt like, because we also talked about unsolicited dick pics, and boys that rarely on the receiving end of those, but if they do send them and stuff they feel like they only have that, that to send. So girls can send boobs and underwear and hips and stuff, and like all I can send my dick.
Hannah Witton
They need to use their imaginations. But also, if they're under 18 then don't.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, it's a really weird one. So it's like, obviously, they know what, I tell them what the law is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
And it's adults only but you tell young people not to do something and yeah -
Dolly Padalia
I guess you know, for us, that's it's not about telling them not to do something because it's like, you know, you can compare it to I guess abstinence only.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah.
Dolly Padalia
It doesn't work, and it's such a bad idea. And, you know, I guess what we that the conversation we have is that actually the issue is really when, not when the nude is sent, even though they know the law, the issue is when it's shared unconsensually. That is the issue. And that's you know, that's -
Hannah Witton
That's a different law in itself actually, that kind of like covers two areas.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah. So we talk about, I try and say, person, it's a person A, person B thing, but when person B wants to send it to 50 other people, that's an issue. And that's who's like doing wrong in that sense, because some of them get scared and think, well, they're both, everyone's in the wrong because they shouldn't send them in first place. I'm like, yeah, but one person has been horrible here, which is the person that's sending them, unconsensually.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, and I guess. Yeah, I guess we say that, you know, you know, if we sort of look at why people send nudes, maybe it's kind of important part of their pleasure. But you know, it's really important not to kind of judge people for sending them. It's, it's the unconsensual sharing that is the issue, and should be called out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, 100%. And I think, because obviously, kids in the UK, like you can have sex when you're 16. But then it's like, oh, but you can't express yourself maybe in a certain way that you might want to express yourself until you're 18. Even if like, even if you're taking you know, like a selfie for you, literally for yourself that isn't shared like that technically like, yeah -
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, exactly.
Nathaniel Cole
I, erm, I like I need to actually look into like when those laws were made. At the moment, I do say, well, things were different before, you know, like, we didn't have phones and cameras in our pockets.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean the law, it's not. It's not like a recent law that's come into place because of sexting, because of sending nudes.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's like, they've applied that to an old law about child pornography.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, exactly.
Nathaniel Cole
And I said, I will say, I say to kids, you know, I was like, back in my day. I'm 29! Like, we had pictures, and you weren't gonna go to get them developed because -
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
Do you know what I mean, you can't do that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
I do say though, I feel like law will stay in place because we've got this issue of pictures being sent out. So they're like, why can I have sex, but I can't send pictures? I'm like, well, people send pictures out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you explain, I guess it's, it's about protecting young people?
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we talked about how, obviously, the law is there to protect and safeguard young people and not criminalise them.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah.
Dolly Padalia
And that, you know, how like, kind of any type of sex really tends to be, or most types of sex, tends to be in between the people involved in those moments. Whereas, you know, obviously, kind of like nude sharing, and digital content can sort of escalate beyond that, so.
Hannah Witton
I read this, I don't know, like a one pager or a report that was from the police about how they deal with, like sexting in with under 18s. And what it's said, which I thought was actually like, quite brilliant, was that they're not necessarily going to intervene, or like, make any arrests unless there is manipulation or coercion involved. And it kind of very clearly stated that they would allow parents and the school to kind of take the lead on how they want to deal with it, if there wasn't manipulation and coercion.
Dolly Padalia
They would usually, as well, I guess this all depends on the situation, because every case would be looked at individually. They would sometimes come in to the school and have a conversation with various people to you know, reiterate the law, and yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I thought it was quite good, because it was like, this is what the law says, but like, how we then act upon said law will be will be, I guess, reasonable and, like, managed.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, but also what is the reality, you know, young people, you know, does this law - like you were saying the Nathaniel,, does the law actually take that into consideration? Does it really understand the realities of like young people and digital lives, whereas I think there's a huge disconnect. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, even though like we're all millennials, I just feel like there's so much that even like I'm out of touch with now.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, absolutely. Love Island.
Hannah Witton
I feel like I should watch Love Island because I don't know I almost feel like it would be homework, to make sure I know what's going on.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, we've discussed in class, we've had workshops around the issues around Love Island and the responses are always so mixed, aren't they. It's really interesting.
Nathaniel Cole
It's, erm, because you know when you, when you show people like the reality of a situation, it's hard for I think it's a lot of times hard for them to accept like, who is in Love Island, and talk about body image, for instance and how you know guys are supposed to look a certain way, and women in a certain way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, Love Island is a great example to do like male and female body image.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah. Also look at LGBTQ relationships.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, just like representation and inclusion, and where does it all come from.
Hannah Witton
Surely, like, a fully bisexual Love Island would be far more interesting.
Dolly Padalia
Yes.
Nathaniel Cole
There was a show, not Love Island, but something similar that was on somewhere. It looked really wild!
Hannah Witton
Oh, I think I saw clips of it being shared on Twitter, I can't remember the same of it.
Nathaniel Cole
What is this, I need to see it?
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, it's a bit of a strange one I think.
Nathaniel Cole
Then I'm also on the end of, well I don't really want, you know, for representation I want in Love Island. Like, let it just be this this thing that it is, and I'm happy kind of just having it as that
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, and by strange one, I mean that, it's, it's strange, because when we discuss the having like an LGBTQ inclusive Love Island, they're very much, they're not against it, like young people tend to say that's a really good idea. But actually, they're more caught up in the logistics of it. So, like, oh, but how would that work? If one person was eliminated, but the other person was gay, who would they get with? And I was like, okay, I think we just need to look at what the message actually is here.
Hannah Witton
I mean, that's where my brain goes, immediately to the logistics. And I just like take out the love, just like the map of relationships and how it all works.
Dolly Padalia
But I think we, we really enjoy using things like that in workshops to look at, you know, those TV shows and, and encourage young people to sort of really, critically analyse them and think about, you know, the reality and what is, what are the key messages that are being sent here? And what is that the subliminal stuff as well? And I think that's really important in like TV shows, to really get everyone, I guess, not just young people, to think about critically analysing. Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
When you do stuff like that, as well, it's you meet them halfway. So yeah, and there's a reference point that they understand in Love Island.
Hannah Witton
I realised we've gone on this massive tangent, right at the beginning. I love it though, and I really wanted to come back eventually to the stuff about porn as well, that you mentioned. But first of all, Dolly, what is Sexplain?
Dolly Padalia
Well, Sexplain is an NGO that provides comprehensive and inclusive relationship and sex education for young people in the UK. And our approach is very intersectional. feminist, sex positive, non judgmental, and yeah, just inclusive.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's a really new organisation, isn't it.
Dolly Padalia
Yes, it only started or launched rather, in 2017.
Hannah Witton
You've taken like the RSE world by storm. They're like, Sexplain just came out of nowhere and they're brilliant
Dolly Padalia
No, it's it's really fun. I think it's really valuable being able to work with young people and provide like a safe, non judgmental space for them to ask questions, and just do it in a way that's quite straightforward. But you know, it's fun and quite discursive, and arts based as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And Nathaniel, you do sessions with Sexplain, but then you also have your own stuff going on, what's all that?
Nathaniel Cole
Many things! Before we say that, how many people work at Sexplain, and how many students have been?
Dolly Padalia
Yes, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Great question!
Nathaniel Cole
How many people get young people have you worked with?
Dolly Padalia
Yeah. So we've reached over 20,000 young people,
Hannah Witton
Is that like UK wide?
Dolly Padalia
Yes, it is UK wide. Yeah, or rather kind of mostly predominantly in London, south south west as well, but in the Midlands, and we've kind of reached quite a lot of young people in the north as well. Yeah, that's really exciting. And we have like around 10 facilitators, as well, as you know, lots of volunteers and advisors as well who make up our wonderful team.
Nathaniel Cole
So, my name's Nathaniel, I'm a workshop facilitator at Sexplain, and the Good Lad Initiative. So sexplain, obviously, RSE, and then with Good Lad, it's workshops on masculinity, trying to understand what boys think being a man is and then -
Hannah Witton
What do they think being a man is?
Dolly Padalia
Does anyone know?
Nathaniel Cole
Does anyone? Yeah, it's typical things, like you know, strong, powerful, you know, aspirations of like money and stuff. But we kind of try and dismantle that and be like, actually, you are in control of the type of man, and the adult you become. I'm also the co founder of Swim Dem Crew, an inner city Swim Club that believe in the power of community.
Dolly Padalia
I love that.
Nathaniel Cole
So I swim with people. And I'm like a writer and researcher on those topics of like sex education, relationships, and mental health, and masculinity.
Hannah Witton
Do you find that young people react differently in like, either Good Lad context or Sexplain, like if the facilitator is male or female, is that does that create a different dynamic?
Dolly Padalia
Definitely.
Nathaniel Cole
I think so, yeah. I, how many guys are there at Sexplain? I want to say three.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, about three, and we have some non non binary people.
Hannah Witton
Okay. Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
So yeah, there's, there's that and it depends on the school, like, sometimes you got to schools is a very poor attitude toward towards women. And then you add on like, people's sexuality on top of that, it's just goes downhill from there. So I think sometimes there's that, oh, this is a man, I must respect him tha,t sort of subconsciously, for a lot of the kids I work with. I think people are more comfortable to say things that they know aren't good to say, or aren't necessarily right, morally, around like in an environment where everyone's quote unquote, same. So they might be more inclined to say things that they think are problematic, but want to say them, in front of me, because it's like a guy and like a bro session. Compared to someone where because if it says the same stuff, that's really disrespectful to like, to women, to say that to the facilitator, that that's, you know, if they're women as well, that they might not want to say it, and -
Dolly Padalia
It doesn't stop everyone.
Nathaniel Cole
It doesn't stop everyone, yeah. But I'd rather they say it, so we can talk about it, and uppack it.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, exactly.
Nathaniel Cole
And get like a learning from it, rather than them just like keep it in. So that's like a, I have to kind of use that to my benefit, to make better sessions.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Are most of the Sexplain sessions, like mixed gender, or does it depend on the school?
Dolly Padalia
I guess it does depend on the school, we do encourage schools to not separate the sessions on gender. But again -
Nathaniel Cole
They always do
Dolly Padalia
I think, yeah, they do, they do that quite often. And you know, it, particularly when it's, you know, regardless of the situation being quite difficult for people who are gender diverse.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dolly Padalia
But also, you know, if you're covering things like periods and anatomy, and we're talking about vulvas, everyone needs to know about that, you know, it's, it's an equally important for, you know, everyone to know about it, and for us to discuss taboos and tackle stigma. Yeah, and there's usually I find that actually, boys have so many questions about periods.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so many questions! When I was like, 14, I remember showing boys I went to school with like, how tampons and pads worked, because no one would teach them, like they weren't taught. I remember, like running a pad under like water and yeah, they would watch it expanded just, what?
Nathaniel Cole
I love this peer to peer sex ed
Hannah Witton
Peer to peer sex ed, is great, I love it. One of the things that we kind of like briefly touched on with masculinity, I find it so interesting that, at least for the most part, people who like work in RSE are either women or LGBT. And it's like, it's seen as like, not that, well for the most part, like, the patriarchy and a lack of decent sex ed has quite a detrimental effect on those groups. Obviously, it does also have a negative effect on men, but we, we don't necessarily talk about that a lot. And I'm like, why aren't there more dudes in sex ed? Do you think a lot of men just like don't see that it is their problem?
Nathaniel Cole
Because, you know, I think it's still at the moment if it's about sex, it is about like, men's pleasure. Like, I remember once we did a brainstorm of the word sex, and someone says, someone summarise what we're saying is, it is men that climax, and sadface.
Hannah Witton
Was that a girl that wrote that?
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah. And so I think we've moved men and like us, it's the issue is that the world's not a great place for the people that are affected by our actions, but also we are like on top. So for a lot of people it's like, really is that better sex ed means people know that there's better sex available, and then it's like a snowball effect, essentially you feel like you have less like, the better you make the world, as like a someone like me, well, you know, I'm Black so - I'm cis and het, you know, we are like on top in a certain way. Like the patriarchy system is made for us. And that that means that people below us like lose out and to like level the playing field, we essentially have to like give up equity and stuff, and a lot of people don't want to do that, because in their lifetime, they're really struggled already and stuff but, I think the reason why I love to do the work, and do the work I do is because I think it's down to us to like, bring that change in as well, because we're such a huge part of the problem. When you're part of the problem, like you can be a part of the change as well, like it should be down to the survivors of actions to do teaching and educating, and essentially saying, please don't treat me like this.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
And I really, it annoys me, because there should be more of us that realise that we should be better for each other. And like, how much nicer that would be for everyone, in terms of like, people will have better sex, if more of us understood and -
Hannah Witton
See the light!
Nathaniel Cole
You know, there'd be much better men around if we taught boys to be better. And -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because I feel like, every, every other week, or every week, I get emails being like, oh, there's this new app, or this new platform, or this new community, or this new event, for women. That is great, because obviously, that is needed. But because the feminist movement is so old, and has been going for so long, we have like the structures in place, we have the language in place to be able to have these conversations, and create these spaces and, and have these discussions and things. But there isn't that same history for like, supporting men, and it's all and then obviously, you've got like men's rights activists and and incels, and I'm like, no, you've got it wrong!
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah!
Hannah Witton
It's so interesting, because we have that history there, if you're a woman, or if you're LGBT, that there is that history of support there. But there isn't the same for men. I think it's like, we're currently trying to do that now, actually. And a lot of people say to me about, you know, doing more stuff for men, and I'm like, that's not my place. And I'm not, I'm also not the best person for that job. You know, with my vulva, and my lady brain.
Nathaniel Cole
I think, you know, we were talking about Love Island, and body image, and stuff like that, and how we kind of bridge that gap. And I think, yeah, like men's learning? teaching? It also needs to have a gap, there's a gap to be bridged. And it means like, involving more men in those conversations, but also that it's really important that they know they're not like the head honcho, or the leader, or creator of anything.
Hannah Witton
Right
Nathaniel Cole
Like, so say, I was to if I was to introduce feminism to a class, it's important that they know that I'm not presenting this as new ideas, or anything like that, and like where it actually comes from. And I remember one some, I mean, like, there's, I mean, there's lots of WhatsApp groups for men at the moment, like so I'm in a couple and in one this guy was he put out all his books he was reading to, like, understand masculinity better. And one was Jordan Peterson's book. And I was like, don't read that, please. And it was just interesting because all these books were written by men as well. I said, you know, you can like read books by women and and still become like a better person or like understand yourself better. And that was like a new concept to him.
Hannah Witton
What are the books on his list?
Nathaniel Cole
Erm, I only really picked out that one because I hated it!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're just like, oh God.
Nathaniel Cole
There was about 10 there. There's one I think it's called is it Grayson Perry? That's, that comes up in a lot of this.
Hannah Witton
Descent of Man.
Nathaniel Cole
Descent of Man, that's it. Um, but other than that, I'm just like, just don't read bad things like -
Hannah Witton
But it's important to have that conversation rather than just like shut it down and just be like, Jordan Peterson is evil. Don't read his book, but kind of like, why -
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, why and what makes it bad. Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
It's like coddling MRA stuff. It's like a nicely packaged MRA, which I hate. But yeah, it's about bridging that gap. Because it is possible, it's just that people need to be open to it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you see some of these things being brought up in Sexplain workshops with young people when you have like, a mixed gender class?
Dolly Padalia
Particularly around consent, I think there's usually lots of that's, that's always in a really interesting class. There's lots of misunderstandings and around, you know, false rape accusations. You know, the, the whole thing of you know, if someone is persistent, persistently asked for sex, that counts as consent. You know, all of these issues that I think are really important to unpack, and you know, it's really also really nice to see at the end of the session that, you know, after you've had these discussions they do, they are like, oh, no, that's not consent, that they didn't ask, you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Dolly Padalia
But, again, like Nathaniel was saying these issues are societal, and you know, they're happening like the new [inaudible], for example, and the threats that was that the female candidates received in America and US, like, that's all an issue. And then, you know, we want to sort of unpack that in class and think, get people to think about power, and how that works, and particularly how that ties into consent as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think that's such a crucial one to have, like all genders in a room together discussing. Like, I remember, like, literally, you're taught an entirely separate narrative. Like, if you know, if you're lucky, you got some sex ed in school, but I mean, taught just generally, like in terms of messages we receive from society, and then the conversations that you have with your mates. I remember it was all about, like fear, it was just all about, like -
Dolly Padalia
Scaremongering, yeah
Hannah Witton
And how to not get raped, basically. But it was that myth of like, the stranger in the alley.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
Which people still believe.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that is still a big one.
Dolly Padalia
And there's always some way that they find a way of blaming the victim.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah.
Dolly Padalia
The most random things. And, you know, like, they're all unacceptable. And, again, really important to be able to unpack that in classrooms and really challenge these ideas.
Nathaniel Cole
It's really annoying, because there's a big challenge, like facts and figures. And yeah, latching on to that 1% of false allegation. And it's just, it's really frustrating cuz they don't want to, it's hard. I suppose you don't want to believe that people are that bad and horrible, or that all the bad things are happening. Like when I found a month ago, I said, oh, yeah, there's 80,000 rapes that happen in the UK. And then the first question was, but how many a true though? And I'm just like -
Hannah Witton
It's always the first question.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah and I was like, dude, these are real stats and figures that are reported.
Hannah Witton
Isn't it a similar percentage of false allegations for rape as it is like for fraud, I think as well.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, the statistics we kind of use our men are kind of more likely to be raped than to have like a false accusation against them
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow, okay. Wow.
Nathaniel Cole
So we say it's, so there's over 80,000 rapes in the UK, of that I think about 20% go forwards in terms of being reported to police. And of that 20% of the 80,000 that are reported, then it's like, I want to say, an estimate of, I want to say 3%, that are like a false claim. But a false claim can mean anything from someone not being able to remember, to being pressured out of it and pulled back. So it's like very small, small, tiny portion of them. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because there are many reasons why it wouldn't go to court.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, it's classed as false, but it actually -
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow, okay.
Nathaniel Cole
You know what I mean. And even that is like new information for for people when I tell them. And it's just, it's hard to accept that it's never talked about. Survivors UK have really good information on on male survivors of sexual assault, and never talk about one in five women being survivors, and it's one of the six for men. And that kind of helps I think the boys understand what when we do the sessions, like in terms of what's actually more likely to happen in your life, or there's obviously, it's always hard one to say in class, you don't know students histories, or anything like that. But really, to get them to understand that the issue is like rape culture as a whole, and the amount of assaults that are happening as opposed to the ones that quote unquote, aren't and happening and -
Hannah Witton
And just like having, you know, like sexual violence is, you know, the extreme case, but then how, like, you said, that culture permeates, like, you know, persistently asking someone out on a date when they've like, said no many times.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, exactly, respecting personal boundaries. Yeah, exactly. And I guess, you know, drilling down to, you know, the the essentials, as we were talking about earlier. The essential oils of any type of sex and consent is that communication, you know, and pleasure, because really, without pleasure, you can't really have consent.
Hannah Witton
How do you do all of that in one hour? How on earth?
Dolly Padalia
And look at digital consent as well. Erm, yeah, it's definitely tricky. I think what we try and prioritise is answering questions, and doing activities that will help, like I was saying before, and get them to sort of critically analyse the situation and really assess, you know, weird thoughts and preconceptions about consent and, you know, various things like porn or anatomy and things like that.
Hannah Witton
So you're potentially going to be very busy this year because of relationships and sex education becoming compulsory, from September, which we've all been waiting for.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But I think also a lot of teachers are very nervous, because the resources aren't there.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And it's gonna, I'm a bit nervous that it's gonna become this like, oh, we need to tick a box, so for one hour, at the end of the year, you just like wheel in the TV, they don't wheel in TVs anymore, do they!
Nathaniel Cole
Oh, wow, that's so funny!
Hannah Witton
But there is that real risk that even though, oh my god amazing, it is in law, it's compulsory for young people to be taught RSE in schools -
Dolly Padalia
How is it being implimented.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and like, a friend of mine is a primary school teacher, and she has to use her own money to buy art supplies, if she wants to do anything fun and interesting with like, six year olds. And, you know, she's got a very, like, small salary as a teacher, a teacher salary, and I'm like, there's literally like no money in education, and I'm very worried. Very glad that obviously, like Sexplain exists, and, and other organisations too, but obviously, you can't reach everyone and it's a bit scary. I'm like, oh!
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, definitely. I think it's obviously a real issue, and we see it quite often, you know, how can the sex and relationship education be comprehensive, and inclusive, and then consistently delivered as well?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And hit all of the topics and make sure it's age appropriate for every student. Oh, my God, that's just so much. Yeah. Do Sexplain do training for educators?
Dolly Padalia
Yes, exactly. So we provide training for teachers, and again, that's to be able to support young people and the people that work, you know, with or around young people to ensure that they deliver sex education that is, as I said, comprehensive, inclusive. But also that, you know, we're all working together to create a safe and happy and healthy environment for young people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so they feel they can ask questions.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the topics, like I said, before we cover are contraception, STIs, anatomy, concent, but the ones that tend to be really popular are the LGBTQ sessions, and the digital issues sessions as well, because I think there's a real rising awareness of the need to provide young people with digital literacy and awareness of their own rights.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Especially because a lot of teachers will have maybe been trained or like, teaching during Section 28.
Dolly Padalia
Yes, exactly.
Hannah Witton
So then they never were trained on how to talk about LGBT stuff.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, and absolutely, I've been to teach training sessions where they're just terrified of talking about anything related to LGBTQ or identity. And, you know, these, they often ask, you know, how do I approach this in school? What what questions can I answer? And, you know, that's a that's a real, a real issue, because actually, what is the issue with answering a question that a young person has about, you know, being gay? Or about their identity? What, like, what is the issue there?
Hannah Witton
It is a fear of, like, parents' reactions?
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there is a there's a fear of like parental reactions, but a lot of parents are, that we come across, are really happy and excited about, you know, there young people being given this education. I remember we had someone tell us, a young person tell us, that they went home and told that parent that they had three hours of sex education. Their mum was like, three hours, that's more than I've had in my entire life! You know,
Hannah Witton
The kids are going to know more than the parent.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah.
Dolly Padalia
And it's nice, again, that teachers appreciate that when we go in and deliver them that actually we that we're going in, answering these questions candidly and honestly, and then, you know, we don't have to teach them geography in the next session.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Dolly Padalia
But yeah, again -
Hannah Witton
Kids are gonna be like, well, actually, mum.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah! But, you know, again, coming back to it's just really important to ensure that, you know, all the content is age appropriate, but actually, we're answering questions to ultimately create a safe and happy space for young people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, and I think it's, it's important that I, in my head, I want Sexplain to get more bookings as a result of it because I think it should be done by organisations such as Sexplain because were set up and geared for it already. Like, we're ready to go.
Hannah Witton
You've had the training,
Nathaniel Cole
Had the training, that part about us coming in, being able to deliver, talk, and leave, is actually what helps the kids as well. Because they don't have that other embarrassment because as embarassing as a teacher is talking about things and teaching them geography, the kids are also going to be embarassed to tell their teacher they watch porn every day.
Hannah Witton
Do have conversations with schools where you're like, okay, we're obviously in and out. But who is the teacher that if kids do have any follow up questions.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, exactly, because it's so, because it's so important that, you know, SRE shouldn't just be an hour session that you get every term or something. It's a holistic approach that should be, you know, supplemented by the school, and at home. And what we'll try and do is talk to the teachers and see what's available at schools. Are there any like feminists or groups? Are there any LGBTQ groups? And is there like a safe, you know, any service in the school that we can kind of signpost?
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah. I don't know if, what that -
Dolly Padalia
Which isn't always available -
Nathaniel Cole
Like the legalities of stuff like that are. But it I've noticed that sixth formers and colleges tend to be a lot more, unless is foreward thinking about adopting it early in terms of societies and that feminist reading and all that sort of stuff. But it's like are, like we had, we do sessions with, you know, year sevens and eights and they need that stuff, too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Nathaniel Cole
And it's like, I had a really great session this year, where a boy asked me how to come out to his family. And that was really nice, heartwarming moment, but, and I knew that the school had an LGBT society for sixth formers, but not for his age year group. And I was just like, why is that? Like, even when I said it to -
Hannah Witton
Also, if he could have like, gone to that and had all of these slightly older peers -
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, I was just like, why doesn't that exist for his year group? And why isn't there mentoring like thing? Like, why -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh, my God
Nathaniel Cole
Why is it that he can walk into Sixth Form, day one, and join that society, like, you know, just after leaving the 11, but can't be there from you know, the ideal year?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah. So I don't know what the like, the reasons is, obviously, maybe there's more subjects or whatever. But we need to like bring all that stuff down in terms of age group and acknowledge that one, young people think about sex, and young people have identities and different sexualities, and all that sort of stuff, because it doesn't just magically form at 16.
Hannah Witton
And now I'm a sexual person.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, it doesn't just magically, you don't just wake up at 16 and be like, oh, I'm all of these things like -
Dolly Padalia
And I think, I think there is a mix of, you know, fear of parental reactions, but also a lack of time and resource.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, teachers don't have enough.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah. And, you know, I think, as well, it's just really, we would like to, we'd like to encourage teachers as well to, in the training sessions to just have an open, honest, and discursive space for parents as well. So that they're able to understand the new RSE guidance and how that supports young people as opposed to you know, what the Daily Mail say.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah. Parents against SRE and stuff, I'm just bored of that.
Hannah Witton
There's this great Instagram account I found. I think it's run by people in the States, but a lot of the topics they talk about universal, called Sex Positive Families. And it's such a great account, just in terms of talking about like sex positive parenting, and talking about, like, healthy child sexual development, and everything, it's a good one, would recommend.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, yeah, I really like the site, My Kid is Gay.
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay
Dolly Padalia
And it's just so lovely. It's just a bunch of resources, and articles, and support for not, you know, not just for parents, but for teachers and for young people as well. Yeah, I love it. And yeah, definitely needs to be more of that just to, you know, kind of a happy space.
Nathaniel Cole
I find with parents, and there's a lot of worry about their life that their child will experience. And it feels really weird to quote Rocky, but, no not Rocky but in Creed 2, basically, the boss's daughter might be born with a, like a degenerative hearing condition. And so the mother and the father are worried like that. And then he says, well, you're gonna love, do you love the child? Yes or no? And then he says, yes, and goes, well, that's your answer then. They're like, it's gonna be fine, as long as you love them. And I think if parents would understand that that's actually like, the more important thing there is, are you going to still love your child and extend that love to them, regardless of who they are. That's kind of how you should be leading those conversations with. That's how that will encourage you to go onto websites, like my child is gay stuff rather than just thinking must kick out child now, or I cannot ever speak to my child again, because they are different to me. It's like, well, they're still your child.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Always coming from a place of love.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, it's like come from a place of love and just an openness and understanding that, you know, we're fully able to do those things. It's a choice to like, reject someone in that way.
Dolly Padalia
Yeah, absolutely.
Nathaniel Cole
And they will be better as a, they'll have a better life experience if they're approached with love and care and education than hate and ignorance.
Hannah Witton
Indeed, well, thank you both so much for chatting with me, and sharing your expertise and experience.
Nathaniel Cole
Yeah, lovely.
Hannah Witton
Where can people find you both?
Dolly Padalia
@SexplainUK on Instagram and Twitter.
Nathaniel Cole
No personals?
Dolly Padalia
@dollypollyy , but thay's mainly just cat pictures.
Nathaniel Cole
Mine's @nathanielacole, so its Nathaniel with I E L A cole, C O L E on Instagram and Twitter.
Hannah Witton
Fab! Thank you so much. And thank you so much for listening. Bye!
Dolly Padalia
Bye!
Nathaniel Cole
Bye!
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to doing it. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast