Wanking, Pubic Hair and Politics with Grace Campbell | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Grace Campbell
She was like, Oh my God, look at this, and it was a sex tape. That was the first like sexual piece of imagery I'd ever seen. And I remember being really turned on by it. Since then I've always had a very fucked up relationship with Kim Kardashian.
Hannah Witton
My sexual awakening.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, hello, welcome back! It's season two. I'm Hannah, if you didn't know already. Hello! I'm the host of this podcast, Doing It, which is all about sex and relationships, and I am so so excited that we are back with more interview podcasts where I get to talk with people about all of my favourite subjects. Basically, it is a ride. Thanks to everyone who tuned in to the minisodes whilst we were gone. If you haven't listened to them, they are a real treat, especially the personalised smutty story, and the 12 days of Sexmas. I would say they are maybe the most embarrassed I'll ever be on the internet, I don't know. We'll see if we can top it next time. But they are now out there for people to listen to. I hope that you enjoyed them, if you did listen to them.
Hannah Witton
Before we get into this very exciting first episode of season two, I wanted to let you know that we have been nominated for a Global Award in the Best Podcast Category, which is so cool, is really cool. And this category is decided on a public vote, whoo! So you can vote global.com/awards, and then you hit vote now. There are a lot of other amazing podcasts in this category, so I'm going in with this with very low expectations. But I would also really appreciate the votes. Thanks! Okay, so now without further ado, I will introduce to you our guest for episode one of season ywo. And it is the amazing Grace Campbell. Grace is a comedian and a activist, she had a show at Edinburgh Fringe last summer called, Why I'm Never Going Into Politics, and she is touring that in February and March starting at the Soho theatre, and I have tickets to go see it, and I'm very excited. Also, Grace recently announced that she is currently writing a short book called The Future of Men, and this is part of the Futures series by Tortoise. And they are currently crowdfunding on Unbound, which is an amazing platform for crowdfunding books, and I would definitely recommend checking out Futures, but also just like have a look on Unbound, there's so many great books on that. So that's really exciting. And this is what Grace said about it on her Instagram post; she said in this essay/small book, I'll answer some big questions like, what are men? Where do they grow? Where did it all go so wrong for them? Not all men, but a lot. So that sounds interesting. I'm definitely really keen to read this. She's also one of the cofounders of Pink Protest, and they have worked on a whole bunch of campaigns such as free periods with Amika George, and End FGM campaign with Nimco Ali, and Grace is also the host of a podcast called Football and Feminism, which she does with her dad, Alastair Campbell. So we talk about feminism, we talk about wanking, and we chat about pubic hair. So enjoy our speculating, enjoy our chats, and as usual, all of the info things that we talk about, where to follow Grace, is in the show notes. And do follow us on social media we are @DoingItPodcast, on Twitter, and on Instagram, and season two, whooo! Grace, thank you so much for having me in your home.
Grace Campbell
Thanks for coming, all this way, on the many trains
Hannah Witton
On the many trains, rush hour. So you do so much stuff. But first, I think I wanted to talk with you about wanking.
Grace Campbell
Love, absolutely love.
Hannah Witton
Because I think that was like my first introduction to you. Because we met when we did a panel together.
Grace Campbell
Yeah
Hannah Witton
That was like about, sex in general, or like sex ed.
Grace Campbell
And masturbation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, lots of stuff. And you were like, at the helm of this Girls Wank Too campaign, which is a Pink Protest -
Grace Campbell
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
campaign too. Tell me about that, and like why -
Grace Campbell
Well, I guess, like, the Pink Protest we do various different things. And the other campaigns that we've worked on have been more like law changing campaigns, so the free periods campaign.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
Campaign to end period poverty in the UK. Period poverty, for those who don't know, is like one in ten girls in the UK, experiences period poverty, which means they don't have access to like menstrual products when they're on their period. So like, obviously affects going to school, self esteem, all of those things. Then we did another campaign on ending FGM and getting FGM, female genital mutilation, added into the Children's Act. And then we were like, okay, we all, we all wank, right?
Hannah Witton
Where do we go from here?
Grace Campbell
Yeah, where do we go? Well, everything else we're doing is very serious and worthwhile. And actually, a lot of the stuff that we want to also do is just like general taboo busting, like breaking down shame around things that women have always been told to be ashamed of.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Grace Campbell
And we all had this really common experience of like starting masturbating at a really young age, but never speaking about it until we were in our like, early 20s. And we all had that exact same experience.
Hannah Witton
How did you discover masturbation?
Grace Campbell
I literally just like humped a pillow
Hannah Witton
You're like, this feels good.
Grace Campbell
And it was like normal, but then I was like, but this is weird. Like, surely I'm a freak.
Hannah Witton
Do you remember how old you were?
Grace Campbell
Yeah, I was like, six.
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah.
Grace Campbell
And then I remember seeing Kim Kardashian's sex tape when I was in like in year six or year seven
Hannah Witton
I still have never seen it.
Grace Campbell
Oh, it's online.
Hannah Witton
I know it is. But I just don't feel like looking at it, do you know what I mean.
Grace Campbell
No, I know, but that was, I remember I was like 10 or 11. And a girl from school, we were at her house, and she was like, oh my God, look at thism and it was a sex tape. And I remember just being like, that was the first like sexual piece of imagery I'd ever seen, and I remember being really turned on by it, and since then, I've always had a very fucked up relationship with Kim Kardashian.
Hannah Witton
My sexual awakening.
Grace Campbell
Exactly! I do get a little bit aroused when I see her. Erm, and then yeah, then I, but it was like, all through my teenage years, no one spoke about. So I always like knew that it was the thing that boys did, but I really thought, especially like, because of the ways I did it, like when I was a kid, I was like, humping a teddy bear. And I thought it was like really shameful and disgusting. And then, so we all had this experience, basically. And then we were like, let's sort of do something about it. And we did a few events, and I mean, so much of my comedy is about wanking.
Hannah Witton
Brilliant.
Grace Campbell
Yeah. When I did my Edinburgh show, in Edinburgh, Why I'm Never Going Into Politics is the title of the show, but I do a whole bit about wanking and how, because I talk about wanking so much, I could never be a successful politician, because the right wing media would like use it against me and sort of -
Hannah Witton
Oh, 100%
Grace Campbell
Label me as like a crazy sex pest.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I could also never go into politics, because of everything that is online.
Grace Campbell
All of the things. Can you imagine House of Commons, like the way that male politicians would like, bring all of this stuff back up, and use it against you. So anyway, to start that bit in the show, I just very, I go from something really political, and then suddenly, I'm just like, I love wanking. And then I just say over and over again. Anyway, there were these two old people at my Edinburgh show who when I said that literally got up and left.
Hannah Witton
Oh no
Grace Campbell
And then I was like, I think I've inspired them.
Hannah Witton
I like that. That positive spin on that
Grace Campbell
But it but it does, you know, it does make people very uncomfortable, as I'm sure you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's so interesting, because like, I didn't have that experience of wanking from a young age. I don't remember when I became aware of it, it wasn't something that I like, accidentally brushed -
Grace Campbell
When was it that you started wanking?
Hannah Witton
So I kind of got to teenagehood, and very much had internalised that girls don't wank, and that it's not for girls, and it's gross. I'd like internalised all of that by then. So even though I was a bit curious about it, I still had was just completely like, ew, no, not doing that and the only time I ever really ventured that way was like, I'd negotiated a wanking hook up with someone when I was like thirteen.
Grace Campbell
What does that mean?
Hannah Witton
It just basically means we talked on MSN about what we were going to do.
Grace Campbell
Oh, I love. Oh, okay
Hannah Witton
And then I like basically fingered myself to be like, what will it feel like for him? Nothing to do with me. It was like what was this experience gonna be like for him. And then it wasn't until I was like, in my late teens and early 20s that I was like, annoyed that I wasn't doing it, or like orgasming and then like, finally did and was like, okay, now I love it. Great.
Grace Campbell
Yes, well, it is like, but even when it came on to having sex, I remember thinking, well, this is just not like wanking.
Hannah Witton
No.
Grace Campbell
Like, I'm not having orgasms. I didn't have the confidence to say to the people I was having sex with, I'm not having orgasms. They didn't notice because they had no idea what a woman having an orgasm looks like.
Hannah Witton
And also, a woman having an orgasm is also not what Sally does.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
That's also wrong.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, it's all completely different. Like, that's why I like, I'm fascinated by women and the female orgasm because I think it's so much more complex than the male one. But so that was like it was like a real disparity between the pleasure I was giving myself, and the pleasure that I was getting from, like, boys, I'm going to call them boys, because they were boys. Now I'm with men, but then it was boys. And I just thought, wow, we've really been sold a bit of a lie here.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
And they don't know what's going on either, and we should all just be talking about it. And it wasn't until I got older that I was like, right, I'm like taking this into my own control. And I'm going to tell men that I'm sleeping with how I come.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, this is how you do it. Here is your step by step guide. Do you remember what conversations around wanking were like when you were a teenager? Because I vividly remember the boys talking about it so openly, to the extent where they would discuss like how far their jiz would travel across the room.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, totally. I mean, I remember finding out that a group of boys from the school next door to us had had a competition where they all wanked together and saw who could come first.
Hannah Witton
I love it.
Grace Campbell
I mean, amazing. But like, that's how far the kind of like wanking was, that they would -
Hannah Witton
Just like, how normalised it was
Grace Campbell
They'd do it together. Whereas I feel like, if any one of my friends said, at 14, that we were wanking, everyone else would have been like, that's disgusting. Just because that's how we were conditioned. Even though we're probably all doing it, we would all have been like, ew. And also, I think so much about like how much we saw like imagery of dicks growing up, like there would be dicks in the toilet. Do you know, people would like graffiti dicks everywhere
Hannah Witton
Like the end credits of Super Bad.
Grace Campbell
Literally, loads of dicks. When did I ever see fannies? Like never, I never saw like, that wasn't something that we would do as like, fuck you, like here's a drawing of a vagina.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
But so yeah, there was a huge disparity then. And I was very aware of boys wanking, I was so aware of boys wanking. I just didn't think we had it, we had the same ability. I didn't think we were allowed to do anything like it.
Hannah Witton
But we are!
Grace Campbell
We are, and I, when I have children, it's going to be like the first fucking thing that I talk to them about. As soon as they can speak, I'm gonna be like, right, there's this thing, and it takes you away, because I think when we did a Girls Wank Too event, we had Style Me Sunday, do you know her, Natalie Lee? She's amazing, she's like a mum influencer. And she said this thing, which is so true, where she was like, I tell my girls, she has two daughters, that masturbating is an amazing way to avoid toxic relationships. Because sometimes we feel like we have to be having like, sex and pleasure from other people to get it. And once you know, you can give it to yourself and you're not relying on other people for that, you might be less likely, I certainly would have been less likely to sort of get into like, not very, very healthy situations with, well in my case it was men.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. I think as well, because we kind of put being in any kind of relationship on a pedestal. It's like being in a relationship is the goal, rather than like being in a good, healthy relationship.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, exactly. Well, also, it's like be in a relationship, if it makes your life better. Like that's what I think you always have to stop and think like, does this relationship make my life better, easier, funner, happier? If it's not all of those things, then you shouldn't be in relationship because we can be single, like, I think women are realising like, how easy it actually has to be single now. That's what's amazing about our generation of like, feminists.
Hannah Witton
Hasn't being such like a public feminist affected your dating life?
Grace Campbell
No, I don't think so. Like, I'm just trying to think I think, just me being me as a person affects my dating life. I just think I'm like, so like, too much information. Never hold my opinions back. Say exactly what I think. Like, I'm with my boyfriend, the day I met him, we met on Hinge, and I didn't really know much about him. And he said, he went to private school. And instantly I was like, so you're a Tory.
Hannah Witton
Actually, that would be my assumption too.
Grace Campbell
And then I like completely profiled him as being Conservative. He was like, no, I've always voted Labour, but that was like instantly, within 30 seconds of meeting him, like that sort of where I went to.
Hannah Witton
But what about his parents?
Grace Campbell
No, they're Labour as well.
Hannah Witton
What? I'm so confused by people.
Grace Campbell
To be fair, he went to like, it was like a charity boarding school. It wasn't, it's not like, it's called Christ's Hospital. It's not like Eton or anything. I mean, I'm not defending it. Definitely isn't as bad as like the other ones. But yeah, so I just think I've always been a bit like, I hate the phrase "too much", which is why I've never like changed myself. But people used to always say I was too much when I was dating. So I guess my feminism comes massively into that. Because I will like, argue with people if I disagree with them, and I will not kind of, I don't care that we're on a date, and I'm supposed to be like impressing you, if you've said something that irritates me
Hannah Witton
I would do that on dates, too. I'm just like, I'm not actually like trying to impress you, or get in your pants here. I'm like, trying to see if we have -
Grace Campbell
I'm trying to see if we, yeah, if we could spend a lot of time together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
And like, that's a good marker of like, you as a person, if you can, like, sit here and actually kind of like have these conversations.
Hannah Witton
It's your litmus test
Grace Campbell
Exactly. Some people just get really, I guess, turned off by it. But then also, like, I remember when I was single, and like, I've always been, like, very outspoken about feminism, since I was at school. I remember I would like sleep with boys, and then they'd like, see my pubes, and I'd usually have like a proper wax. They'd be like, wow, I'm really shocked that you have pubic hair. I thought you'd have really hairy vagina.
Hannah Witton
Oh, cuz you -
Grace Campbell
They thought, oh, she's a feminist.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, she's going to have a big bush.
Grace Campbell
Of course, that's the uniform.
Hannah Witton
What is your relationship with pubic hair?
Grace Campbell
Um, it's like evolved. When I was younger, I always like would be hairless. And now I care way less. I think like if I was going to go on holiday, I'd get all my pubes wax. It's winter at the moment, so I don't give a shit.
Hannah Witton
It's a different story.
Grace Campbell
I don't really think about it right now.
Hannah Witton
Where do you think that came from? Wanting to be hairless when you were younger?
Grace Campbell
Honestly, like, I found it easier. Like there was obviously a part of it that was like boys won't get with you if you have pubic hair. Like obviously that was like a thing, and I think we were all, in my kind of the environment I grew up in, we were all sort of made to feel that like having pubes was less sexy. Once I realised that that wasn't true, because it was like actually, to be to sound kind of lame, it was men who made me realise that they actually don't care. I think women are really conditioned to think that men care and actually they don't care like -
Hannah Witton
They're like, that's a pussy, I'm excited.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, exactly. I just want to get in there, just let me. And then I started to really question, am I doing this for myself? Am I doing this for other people? And then I kind of ultimately realised I do actually like it, I like having a wax. I love the experience of having a wax. I love the feeling afterwards.
Hannah Witton
I love the butthole wax.
Grace Campbell
I love a butthole wax. I mean, it doesn't even hurt for me, I'm like this is heaven for me.
Hannah Witton
I've not been in ages. Like, actually, I don't think I've had my bikini line waxed since I had surgeries.
Grace Campbell
Really.
Hannah Witton
I don't know like something like clicked and I was just like, I'm not doing that. But at the time, when I was I loved it.
Grace Campbell
It's a good like it's a good experience. And as you say, like actually getting my bumhole waxed is like just for me. I just love the feeling, when I'm in bed at night and I'm like just feeling my pubes, you know just like that's what I like and I just love like feeling like a hairless bum crack.
Hannah Witton
A nice little smooth bum crack. When I was, not even just when I was in hospital cuz obviously like my pubes were like growing out like crazy, but also just winter.
Grace Campbell
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I go from like, being like so hairy and then just being like trim. And my favourite thing is like twiddling the pubic hair and my fingers and like, to the extent where I could like create, I don't know what the look was, but like 1990s boys like spiky gelled up hair.
Grace Campbell
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That was my pubes.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, oh my God.
Hannah Witton
My favourite.
Grace Campbell
Like Boyzone, basically.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And I like,I love doing that as well. But then also, when they're too long, I'm like, no.
Hannah Witton
Or do what you want!
Grace Campbell
Do what you want! I mean, that's the whole point of this, that's like coming back to boys thinking I was gonna have a hairy vagina. Like, I literally think we should just pick and choose the bits that we want for ourselves, you know, and not make anyone feel like we have to do X, Y and Z because it's what feminists should do, or because it's what boys want us to do.
Hannah Witton
Do you find it difficult to kind of really try and get to what your preferences? Because I still struggle with that. I'm like, do I like this because I actually like this, or is this just some ingrained conditioning that is so deep that I can't get rid of it?
Grace Campbell
Yeah, I honestly think it's like, you have to meditate on it. Do you know what I mean? Like sit there on a rock, and like close your eyes and really think about it because you're right, like there are so many things that I could spend ages going back and forth and thinking no, I actually do want this. No, actually this is because. I remember being on holiday with my mum and some of her friends. They're all like kind of older feminists. And I said I was going to get a wax the next day because I was going to a festival after. And I remember all of the women at this table, like older women, were just so shocked and appalled at me and made me feel like really bad about myself for wanting to get a wax.
Hannah Witton
Because it wasn't a feminist choice.
Grace Campbell
Because it wasn't like, they were telling me it wasn't my choice. And I was saying it is my choice, and they were saying no, it's not. And I just feel like with that, it's like don't patronise me like, actually, it is my choice. Like, I've decided to do this.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
I can't say like deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep down why it is, but I know, it's what I want to do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, one of the things that I think has, like, played into why I haven't gone back to get waxes is because of how much it costs. And I was like adding it up and I was just like, women are spending infinitely more money than men on grooming. And I was like, what would like my partner be doing with like, this 50 quid that I've spent on getting my legs, my bikini line, and my eyebrows waxed? Like, like, that goes a long way, and it adds up over time
Grace Campbell
Yeah, 100% and my nails, I get acrylic nails, and that's like, really the only thing that I'm like, I have to always have them. So I have to just always afford them. But like a new set is 30 depending on what you want, 30 to 35 pounds, it really does add up. But again, like I, these made me so happy. I'm just pointing at my nails right now.
Hannah Witton
They are great.
Grace Campbell
They make me so happy. I don't do these for anyone else, because it so doesn't match my look. I don't really wear any makeup, I look rough all the time. But I always have like really long acrylic nails, it's so random.
Hannah Witton
I was thinking about nails the other day, actually. And I have this really weird, double standard. And I'm like, I don't know if this is also just something that is ingrained. But like, when I see women or like femme presenting people with like long nails and like, oh my God looks amazing. It's so glam. If I see men or male presenting people with long nails, I'm like, actually disgusted. And I'm like, why? Why am I having these like two very different visceral reactions to the same thing?
Grace Campbell
I know. Well, it's kind of like when like, sometimes I see men who are like too groomed. I'm so like -
Hannah Witton
Confused.
Grace Campbell
Why are you doing that? But then it's like, but they're just doing what we're doing. They're spending that money that we're spending as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also, so I don't have hairy nipples. And it was only recently that I discovered that women do have hairy nipples.
Grace Campbell
Mine are insane.
Hannah Witton
But it was I only found this out from friends like being honest about it. And I was like, oh, I didn't know.
Grace Campbell
I genuinely spend like half an hour a week plucking my nipple hairs.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, isthat really satisfying?
Grace Campbell
It's the funnest thing. I lie in bed, watching something on Netflix, plucking my nipple hairs. It's like self care.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
It's very like but sometimes I mean when they're out of control, they are out of control. They are dark as well, my nipple hairs, and it's like they go round -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
Like a wheel of them.
Hannah Witton
Like a little Catherine wheel.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, literally. But that just started suddenly, like a year or two ago, I'd never had them before.
Hannah Witton
Oh, really? So kind of like a second puberty.
Grace Campbell
Yeah. And they came with the moustache and the chin hairs.
Hannah Witton
100% some kind of second puberty going on.
Grace Campbell
That's what it was. All at once.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so weird because I'm like so used to seeing like, male nipples with hair. I actually low my ex from several several years ago, like I would pluck his nipple hairs, that was something we did together. And my partner now has hairy nipples. And like not fazed by it at all, but like hairy woman's nipples I'm like, actually never never seen them because mine aren't .
Grace Campbell
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And then in porn - hairless.
Grace Campbell
And also, no-one tells you about hairy nipples on women. Nobody tells you about them. And then when, I remember getting them and saying to my mum, mum I've got these hairs on my nipples, and she was like so do I. I was like, why didn't you tell me like when I was growing up? There's so many things, I'm like why didn't you warn me about this? Like it would just be nice to know. Thrush, for example. I just, I get thrush so much, it's a serious - like I've got it at the moment
Hannah Witton
Chronic thrash
Grace Campbell
I've had it for a week, can't get rid of it, I've tried everything. Just would have loved some more education on it growing up.
Hannah Witton
I still am not 100% sure like what thrush is.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, I mean, it's basically like your pH balance gets fucked up and you have an insanely itchy vagina.
Hannah Witton
And then people sell you products to fix it but that throw your pH out of whack even more.
Grace Campbell
So someone messaged me the other day on Instagram, being like you should try this. Put bicarbonate of soda on your vagina because it just kills the candida, which is the bacteria. So I tried it and I definitely put way too much on and I was literally like, it was like my whole vagina was burning.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God.
Grace Campbell
Like the most like It was like it been set on fire, and I was just bent over and my boyfriend had to run a bath, and I got in the bath and it like calmed down. But it did work. It made it way better. I just think I should do it one more time, but I've been really putting it off.
Hannah Witton
Maybe put on less.
Grace Campbell
Less.
Hannah Witton
And oh my god -
Grace Campbell
But I do think it worked, for anyone listening.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Pro tip. I like that tip because bicarbonate of soda is like something that you might already have.
Grace Campbell
Exactly. And if you don't, it's like one pound.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's also, it's not being sold like -
Grace Campbell
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
You know, bicarbonate of soda doesn't have like on the packaging, like we'll cure thrush .
Grace Campbell
And it's like 17 pounds. You know, the other tip is yoghurt, probiotic, live, plain yoghurt. If you put that on your vagina and just let it sit, that does really help.
Hannah Witton
Oh, like a little facemask for your vagina.
Grace Campbell
Exactly, I just lie on the floor here, on a towel.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that.
Grace Campbell
With some yoghurt.
Hannah Witton
Let's talk about your show.
Grace Campbell
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
What's your show about? Tell us everything. And also why aren't you getting into politics? We've kind of already discussed it, but please tell me.
Grace Campbell
I mean, even now I'm like, absolutely not chance in hell will I ever be. It's just - it just looks -
Hannah Witton
Do people ask you a lot? Is that why you made the show?
Grace Campbell
Yeah. And also it was like, so I grew up in politics. My dad, is a man called Alastair Campbell. My mum, less known, but also was very involved in politics and is a journalist, shes's called Fiona Millar. So both my parents worked full time at Downing Street when I was growing up. And -
Hannah Witton
I definitely, your dad's name definitely came up when I was doing my politics A Level.
Grace Campbell
Yes. It came up when I was doing mine, I think.
Hannah Witton
That's so weird.
Grace Campbell
Yeah. He's, he's definitely like a sort of cultural figure, I think, in politics. Not least because of the Thick of It. I don't know if you've seen the Thick of It.
Hannah Witton
I haven't
Grace Campbell
It's an amazing show. But it's meant to be based on my dad. It's a comedy. It's about like a spin doctor. Peter Capaldi is just the funniest man in the world.
Hannah Witton
Yes, yeah. I've not seen it. But I know of it.
Grace Campbell
It's really funny, BBC at its best. But it's like, so I grew up in politics, grew up in politics politics. And I guess, because it was so intense, like all of our family friends were like in that world. We grew up with like loads of other kids of politicians. So I guess it was always this thing of like, are you going to follow them? Like, is this also going to be the world that you want to go into when you grow?
Hannah Witton
And that's the case for a lot of politicians.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, exactly. But also, it's kind of the case for like, say, if you're the kid of a footballer, people will ask you a lot, are you going to follow in your parents footsteps, and it's kind of like, it's just one of those things. And I guess, that I always knew from like, quite young, that I never wanted to be a politician, because the world, to me just, seemed like so not for me, like the way that you have to be so kind of following a script all the time, and like giving out one set of - one line, you know, like, politicians are esentially at the mercy of the leaders of the parties that they're part of, they don't have that much power.
Hannah Witton
I don't believe that politicians can actually like, say what they believe,
Grace Campbell
They can't!
Hannah Witton
They can't say become a politician. Like, it's just like party line
Grace Campbell
When do you see them doing that, when like, when do they answer a question?
Hannah Witton
Never.
Grace Campbell
I mean, on so many occasions, like in this election campaign, you watch interviews, and people just do not answer questions. And it's like, that is not how we should be telling people to behave like in life.
Hannah Witton
It's so weird.
Grace Campbell
To not be truthful, to avoid answering any questions, to like, quite often manipulate the public. You know, not on Labour's side. But I mean, the leave campaign, and the Conservative Party, have been found guilty of lying to like, rile people up. And then, like, never delivering on on the truth, or what they've said they're going to do. I just think morally, that's so corrupt. And so I guess, like, I've always, I've always felt that way. I've always felt like -
Hannah Witton
Not for you.
Grace Campbell
It's not for me, and it's gonna be a really long time until it changes, and people always like, yeah, but you could go in and change it. And I'm like, actually, I couldn't. Also be a terrible politician. I would be a terrible politician, because there's like -
Hannah Witton
And there are other ways to be in politics.
Grace Campbell
Well, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Because you very much are, like very outspoken and you know, you do campaigning, you're an activist.
Grace Campbell
I think there are so many good examples now of like, young people in particular, using the internet to change the world. And we don't necessarily, you do need to work with politicians, like I say this a lot. Because people forget that, like, if you're trying to change the law, you do have to be cooperating with some politicians because they have to put it forward, and they have to like legislatively do that in Parliament. So in that sense, you do need to cooperate with politicians. But you can have so much influence from the outside and actually like a you can see right now so many politicians are struggling, because they feel that they don't actually have much power. They're not getting what they, what they went into politics to do done because everything's just been about Brexit. And going forward, everything will still continue to be about Brexit. So I think like, the, the show is essentially, it's about me, it's about like my life. And then it's about like, why I've decided, from the childhood I had, to reject politics. But it's also just like, I talk about me as a person, and I guess the thing that keeps coming through is that like, I am just too outspoken, sexual, like talk about wanking, like don't care about like, I guess making people think that I'm like a polite -
Hannah Witton
And just the scrutiny that you'd be under, like -
Grace Campbell
Mad.
Hannah Witton
Even even though like, I genuinely believe someone like you or like me, like someone who talks openly about these things, I don't think that doesn't make them fit for politics. But a lot of other people do think that.
Grace Campbell
It's the right wing media, honestly, that like you'd fear the most. I mean, if you look at the way that they've treated Jeremy Corbyn. Like he is very flawed, but they've given him such a hard time, like way harder than they would have given a different type of person that was leading the Labour Party. They really have the power to like, ruin your character, essentially. So yeah, we've just got to keep trying to change things from the outside. And I guess that's what the show is about. And then the show is also about like, I do have genuine hope for the future.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh good!
Grace Campbell
Because young people give me hope.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, my God, Gen Z.
Grace Campbell
They're amazing.
Hannah Witton
Those guys are gonna fuck shit up.
Grace Campbell
I mean, Greta Thunberg being the best example.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
Because she really has just galvanised like the world and this energy.
Hannah Witton
But even she is under so much scrutiny.
Grace Campbell
Yeah, I know. But I, I keep thinking about what will she do, like when she's older? I don't think she'll be a politician.
Hannah Witton
No. She'd be wasted.
Grace Campbell
She would be wasted. There'll be other ways that she can kind of use that profile she has.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz she's got a massive platform now.
Grace Campbell
Yeah. And they'll just be more and more amazing people like that.
Hannah Witton
The revolution will be on TikTok.
Grace Campbell
Yes, it will be on Instagram.
Hannah Witton
I feel like I know your answer to this already. But like, when talking about all of the things we were before, about sex, and about bodies, and about wanking, and pubic hair, can we separate them from politics? Or is all of that stuff intrinsically political?
Grace Campbell
I do think is political. I think like everything to do with like, gender, and like body politics, it is political because we see over and over again men who are found guilty for raping women, and abusing women, not found guilty but men who are guilty like we know Harvey Weinstein's guilty, just get to rehabilitate their lives and get sort of continue on.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
Men like Donald Trump, who, you know, has actually on record said that he would like sexually assault a women. Men like Boris Johnson, who said insanely offensive things like racist, homophobic, sexist, misogynistic things. He is our Prime Minister. We constantly see men, white men, be forgiven for things that just are, to me, like legitimising homophobia, legitimising racism, legitimising sexism. So I think all of this is political, not to make it really dark. But I do think it is, because women right now do need to fight a lot. You know, there are a lot of things that we're having to fight against, there are a lot of things that are making us feel really vulnerable. And I'm like a white, cisgender, heterosexual, woman. So like, my, my experience is nowhere near as bad as like, or, you know, I don't have those kind of intersections of other other women's or LGBTQ people's like experiences. It's a scary time. I really do feel that like, and I know people say that all the time, like I'm sure people always like, oh the world like it's in such a bad place. But I actually do think right now, like, the men that we're allowing to rule our countries and like sit in positions of power, like, do not have our best interests in mind. So I do think, yeah, I do think all of this stuff is political, basically.
Hannah Witton
I feel like because I live in this, like London bubble as well. And that also kind of terrifies me, that there is a whole portion of this country of people who, you know, share this country with me that I'm like, I don't know you, I don't understand you, and I don't necessarily believe that, like, all of these attitudes are new. I think it's a similar case for the effect that Donald Trump had on the US, where it's like, it's not like suddenly, people were being misogynistic and racist again. It was like they always were, but they felt like they couldn't say it. And then you have someone in a position of power, who's giving you permission to feel and think that way. And then suddenly, it's all it comes to the surface
Grace Campbell
It's the same with the internet, you know, like trolls always existed, there were always be like, had these things to say, they just never had means to do it. And now they've got a means to say all of this nasty shit behind, you know, a mask.
Hannah Witton
What is your message of hope, then?
Grace Campbell
My message of hope is like, we now have this amazing tool to communicate with people and spread messages and positive messages and, and build campaigns and like momentum on issues that we care about. And also the internet is an amazing way to meet people who are as scared as you are, and find kind of comfort in that in those building those communities. So that's amazing. But I also do think our generations, and Gen Z, and younger, once they are like the changemakers, and obviously, when it comes to climate change, like we really have to get our shit together soon.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we can't wait for Gen Z to be in power.
Grace Campbell
We can't wait for Gen Z to be in power, so on that I'm like, you know, scared. And I guess I don't actually speak about climate change enough, because I don't feel I know, like a lot about it. But I know that it's scary. And I know that we need to be doing more, now. And it is urgent. But aside from that, I do think when our generation become like the changemakers, we've been conditioned in a different way. So like we aren't party political people. We'll be more likely to kind of change the voting system, we really need in this country of proportional representation.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, we do.
Grace Campbell
I mean, the whole problem with this election, and with all elections, is that a vote doesn't really matter a lot of the time, when you're in a really safe seat, or when you're -
Hannah Witton
Which is most seats.
Grace Campbell
Which is most seats, your vote actually doesn't matter. There's no way that you can really exert your kind of democratic right. Hopefully, things like that will start to change. I just do feel optimistic about that. And I think we just need to always be optimistic. Like, when you're optimistic, you get stuff done. You think that -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's true actually.
Grace Campbell
There's hope to get stuff done. And I just think when you're like, oh, it's just all bad. There's no point in me even voting. There's no point in me even trying, then you're giving in already.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Grace Campbell
And you need to have that energy of like, actually, there are things I can do. Big or small.
Hannah Witton
Thank you, Grace.
Grace Campbell
Not at all.
Hannah Witton
And where can people find you?
Grace Campbell
@disgracecampbell on Instagram, and then @GraceCampbell on Twitter. And please do come and see Why I'm Never Going Into Politics on tour, starting at Soho theatre in Feb, and then going all around the UK.
Hannah Witton
I'm very excited to see it.
Grace Campbell
Yeah. It's gonna be fun.
Hannah Witton
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Grace Campbell
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Thanks for listening, bye! Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast