Asexuality, Kink and Service Submission with Evie Lupine | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: discussion of consensual non consent play
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I'm joined by the brilliant Evie Lupine.
Evie Lupine is a professional kink and sex educator who has been involved in the BDSM lifestyle and community for over half a decade. She is most well known for her YouTube channel, where she focuses on teaching people about relationships, asexuality, and kink at all levels of experience. I wanted to get Evie onto the podcast to talk all about being asexual and kinky and power dynamics in BDSM because I have watched her content for ages and I just think she is absolutely brilliant. Evie and I talked all about how you can be asexual and into BDSM, how kink has been painted as being something erotic and sexual when for many it isn't. Evie described how for her kink is about intimacy, sensuality, thrill, play,, and connection. We talked about how everyone connects to BDSM in a different way. For some, the power dynamic can be sexual, for some, not, and, when you are asexual, the importance of discussing BDSM scenes and figuring out if you'd be compatible to play with each other.
We got really into the concept of compulsory sexuality, the pressure that exists all the time in society to engage in sex physically, mentally, emotionally, and how this socially ingrained pressure and expectation is alienating for asexual people. We also spoke about what it's like dating allosexual people when you are asexual and how to deal with partners trying to push your boundaries and Evie gave advice on how to deal with the guilt some asexual people often feel when dating allosexual people. Evie also talked to me about aphobia, and the stigma and discrimination faced by asexual people outside of sexual and romantic scenarios. We also got into Evie's own kinks and identity as a submissive, we talked about power play and how to engage in your kink when you are single or don't have any play partners. Evie talked about how you can submit to yourself, and also spoke about the importance as a submissive to work on your self esteem, confidence, and boundaries skills to prepare yourself to be in the best place for then choosing a dominant partner. We also chatted about Daddy Dom/Little Girl, and Caregiver/little dynamics, why they can make people both in and outside of the BDSM community uncomfortable, and where Evie thinks fetishes come from and what Evie thinks about consensual non-consent.
This was such an interesting conversation and I really enjoyed hearing Evie describe how kink can be a form of intimacy with or without it being sexual. And as usual, you can find more info and links to absolutely everything that we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really appreciated. And without further ado, here's my chat with Evie Lupine.
Evie, welcome to Doing It. I am thrilled to be chatting with you. I've watched your YouTube videos for so long. I feel like we're always like commenting on each other's videos and like referencing each other in our videos. And so now we're finally here, we can get to like, actually have like a deep conversation about this stuff. So welcome.
Evie Lupine
Yes, I am so excited! I also obviously like you just said, I watch your videos too. And I always recommend your stuff. And I love that we get this chance to have a crossover. So yeah, should I introduce myself for people who maybe don't know who I am but are listening to this?
Hannah Witton
If you want to do so in your own words? Like how do you describe yourself?
Evie Lupine
I would describe myself as a peer educator that uses YouTube as a platform to talk about asexuality, alternative relationships, BDSM and just kind of in a general way trying to help people have better relationships, be that somebody who's not kinky, aka vanilla, or somebody who's into BDSM, somebody that's asexual and is trying to navigate that. That's really what I focus on, so.
Hannah Witton
And obviously the like fellow YouTuber in me is curious as to what your AdSense situation is like with those topics that you cover.
Evie Lupine
Oh, it is - it's interesting. I don't quite ever fully understand what's going to be monetized or not. Like I did a video recently that was monetized for a while and it was about different types of sadists. So it was like okay, are you a sadist who's motivated because you like, you know, the marks that like get left behind or like - I didn't talk about sex in it at all. Like it was very pain focused. It's like okay, I don't know what in that caused it to be demonetized because it is like kind of an adult topic, but it's also not explicit in the way that YouTube typically cares about, but then I have another video that I did that was completely monetized and it was like reviewing, like, spanking videos on YouTube. Like people that talk about like therapeutic spanking, and I was like, "That's fine, but this isn't, it's very bizarre." So I would say it's about like 50/50 like things to get monetized or not. But it's so hard to predict.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the main things I wanted to get into with you, because I think - this came up, I think I was saying to somebody recently, like, "Oh, I'm interviewing this person. She's asexual and into BDSM." They were like, "Hang on a second. What?" Because I think the general idea is that BDSM is a sexual thing. It's kind of like kink in the bedroom. So what is going on there? And can you tell us a little bit about actually like why these two parts of your identity make sense and make sense together?
Evie Lupine
Yeah, I totally think that the public perception of BDSM and kink has very much been painted by erotica that is primarily written for people that are vanilla, aka non kinky. And not everyone loves the term vanilla. So I'm going to try and stay away from using that. But a lot of erotica, a lot of, you know, the 50 Shades of Grey, the 365 Days, there's a lot of media representation of BDSM, that, to me - where I think that comes from is it's like the most common denominator you have with people that aren't into BDSM themselves, which is "Oh, sex, I get this." Because, you know, people like things because it's about sex, it's about orgasm, like, "Okay, it's a little weird, but I can see why you would like that." So it's a good entry point into understanding why somebody would enjoy BDSM. And it kind of appeals to a lot of the same ideas of like intimacy and romance and closeness.
And even in media that's not about BDSM, there can be this like theme behind it of, you know, this, like powerful controlling man that's wealthy, and then, you know, this more innocent woman that gets swept away, especially if you're looking at heterosexual media, of course. And with BDSM, I find that actually, in practice, when you go past the pornography, or the media representations of it, it's much, much more complex than that. And it kind of always has been. And the way that I like to define it - and I was talking with somebody recently about like, how do you actually define what counts as a kink, because the dictionary definition is more or less like 'a non normative sexual practice'. And I find that as an ace person, that doesn't really work. And so my term is a little bit more vague, but I think in a way that's also more inclusive at the same time, which is, a kink is a non normative intimacy practice. So it's not just about sex, but it's also about like trust and bonding, or sensuality, things that can be kind of linked to sex. And for people that are allosexual, or non asexual, those are things that often go with sex for them. But for ace and aromantic people, they tend to be more kind of like, separated out.
But this is also true true for people that aren't asexual themselves that also happened to do BDSM. Like the complications of BDSM is that like, it's never just one thing. Like it's never just about sex. It's never just about, you know, the sensuality or the physical or mental or emotional side of it. I could go through a whole list of like the motivations behind BDSM if that would be helpful, but for me personally, on a personal level, what I get out of doing BDSM as an asexual person is sort of hinted at in my definition, which is: it's a way for me to have a deep intimate bonding experience with a partner that doesn't have to include sex. Sex - for me, I'm a sex neutral asexual, so I'm somebody that's - I'm not repulsed by it. I don't really love it that much. I don't like really want to think about it too much. But I'm also not like, disgusted by it. I'm also not like, "Yay, it's my favourite activity of the day, I wanna do this all the time." I very much just sort of like, I have a lot of moments in my life where I'm like, "Oh, that was about sex?" Like, that tends to be my experience more than anything else. But -
Hannah Witton
Do you mean in things like innuendo, or -
Evie Lupine
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, there was - I've been playing a game called Cyberpunk recently. And all the advertisements in that game are very sexual in nature, because it's about like capitalistic exploitation. And so there was one ad that I saw that was for a drink called kumquat. And I thought, "Oh, it's the only ad in the game that's not about sex." It literally took me three days for me to realise that it was a come joke. And I was like, "Oh. That's where that's from." But yeah, for me, the the motivation, the thing I get out of doing BDSM is a way to bond and have intimate, physically intense experience with people that don't have to involve genitals. And that's something that even my partners, or people I've played with, that are not asexual also get something out of doing too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How does it work? If like, say you negotiate a scene that isn't sexual for you, and there's no genitals involved, but it's still sexual to your play partner? Because obviously, there can be like things that people find sexual that aren't to do with genitals. Like if it's the power dynamic that they find sexy, or...
Evie Lupine
Yeah, I have a video that I haven't put out yet, but I am working on it. And it's about like the levels of sexuality that can exist in a BDSM scene. Like how you personally experienced sex connected to BDSM on like a range from like, BDSM is like fuzzy handcuffs in the bedroom like once a year all the way up to like the power dynamic itself is sexy for you and erotic, right? The whole thing is an erotic thing. But I find that I do - It's something that if I'm negotiating with somebody, and it's like a casual person, I don't, you know, have a friendship with or romantic connection with, like, if it's just a stranger that I'm doing with what's called like a pick-up play scene with where we're just like, "Hey, you seem cool. I liked your flogging you did. Do you want to do something together with me?" If I, in that negotiation, find out that for them BDSM is like a primarily sexual thing, or the thing they want to do with me is a sexual thing for them or a fetish, then I'm like, we're probably not really going to be compatible. And I decide to not have that scene because a negotiation isn't like a promise to do a scene, right? It's not a promise to do BDSM. It's
Hannah Witton
It's like figuring out if you're going to be compatible.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, but with people that I have other connections with that I know on a deeper level, I have more trust that they'll respect my boundaries, which is really the issue I have with like playing with strangers where I know they experience it in a sexual way, is I find that - when I have tried this before - so my opinion of this is based on personal experience. When I have tried this before, I find that people that do primarily process either the particular activities or BDSM in general, in a sexual way, they still put out that energy on me. And so the way that they touch me feels more sexual, or the types of things they try to do feel more sexual, even if for me, it's not, and that kind of feels like gropey, like, it doesn't feel positive for me.
Hannah Witton
When you can feel somebody like eyeing you up, and you're not looking at them, but you're like, "I can feel it. I can feel it happening."
Evie Lupine
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
That makes sense.
Evie Lupine
It's like the BDSM equivalent of like a creepy guy staring at your boobs in public. And I don't really want to have that experience. And so I found that it's better for me to not do that. But with people that I do have a level of trust with or I have other types of connections with, I'm more fine with that because I know that they are going to understand on a deeper level, like what it is I'm okay with or not, and how like - they respect me as a person in other ways so I expect them more to respect me and I have in my experience, you know, with where my sexual boundaries are at.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes sense. So a video of yours that I recently watched, although I don't think it's a very recent video, was one where you're talking about your asexuality and in that you introduced to me the term compulsory sexuality. And I'd heard of compulsory heterosexuality before and I was wondering, could you kind of explain to us about compulsory sexuality and how that ties into asexuality?
Evie Lupine
Yeah, so, I love the term compulsory sexuality. So the background for that is I had been having similar feelings to what that essentially means, but I had termed it asexual alienation, which is like this feeling of not fitting into a allosexual, a non asexual, society and feeling like there was all this pressure all of the time to engage sexually in the world in relationships. And then when I was researching that, I found that there was a term for it, which is compulsory sexuality. It is an offshoot of the phrase, compulsory heterosexuality, which is where, you know, you are expected to, especially as a woman, perform heterosexuality and like the idea of a lesbian relationship, what lesbian love and sex looks like, is not really included in that picture. And so you kind of have to guess and fight through it to get to what it means to be a lesbian, to be gay.
And with compulsory sexuality, it's more that society in general is very sex centric, in this weird way, where there's this tension of both, you know, this very religiously informed kind of patriarchal like way of controlling - especially women's - sexuality. And I would say for myself, for the record, like half the people I know that are ace, like half of them are men and half of them are like women or non binary people. So like, it's really across the spectrum for gender. I think a lot of people stereotype that ace people are women, but that's not necessarily the case. But with compulsory sexuality, it's this idea that like sex is always all around you, and you're kind of expected to participate in it and the world doesn't really give you a lot of ways to like opt out of that while also fully respecting and seeing your relationships as equally valuable and you as like a valuable person because you're not like contributing to society with the sex that you have.
Hannah Witton
Oof, deep.
Evie Lupine
It's very, very oppressive.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I guess it's like even for like women, cis women, where there's - in, like some societies where it's like the pressure to at least not publicly be seen as being sexual but privately, it's like, you know, if you're persuaded enough or like, you know, deep down, you actually do love sex and you're expected to like sex but only in certain contexts.
Evie Lupine
Exactly. Yeah. Like, yeah, everyone in public says that, like, you know, they're the respectable women and they don't sleep around but you're secretly for your man supposed to be this like sex demon.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Evie Lupine
That's not like, really what I'm after or what I'm about in my life. So it's - it's how society really frames sex is like the most important thing, right? It's the language that we, you know - "sex is the most beautiful thing that two people can do together. Sex is like, the biggest pleasure you can ever have." And then like, as an ace person who has had sex, not all ace people do, I go, "That's it? This is what I'm supposed to organise my entire life around, is this?" You know, it's like, I like baking cake like about as much as I enjoy this, so.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love it. Do you know what, I find it so humbling, sometimes, hearing, like, ace people talk about, like, how they feel about sex, and like you said, like baking and stuff, because it kind of like, sometimes I feel like I need to be like, taken down a notch with like, you said, how I organise my life around sex. And it's just like, "Actually, no sex, like, isn't or doesn't have to be this really big deal. And actually, for a lot of people, it really isn't at all." And do you think that like, because of this, like, compulsory sexuality and just this huge emphasis on our society being obsessed of sex - because like, I think there's this stereotype of like, if you're not, then that makes you like, 'weird' for lack of a better word - is there that kind of stigma?
Evie Lupine
Oh, yeah. I think a lot of people are - and I get this all the time. And YouTube comments are not a good gauge of like general opinion about something by any means. But I do - like on a continual basis, I get people either that access my BDSM content first and then find out I'm ace and go, "What are you talking about? How is that possible?" Or I have people that just don't understand it.
But on a more personal level, I have experienced this I think more so in my personal life, where I have partners that I am interested in and I want to, you know, have romantic relationships with and they go, "Oh, like you're not into sex, okay, like, that's fine." And they're okay with it for a while. But then eventually, it ends up becoming this really huge point of tension where they're actually - they're like, they basically were like, "Oh, I thought I could like talk you into liking it" more or less. And I was like, "Well, I told you what I was, like, I am what I am on the label. And you're not gonna get anything different out of that than what I've told you." And then trying to be forced into it by partners really uncomfortable, obviously.
But I find that there's also - there's a study that was done, that it's sort of a small study, it was like a couple hundred people, but there was a study that was done that showed that asexual people experience like, basically I think it's internal bias or like discrimination by people, especially religious conservatives, because they seem weird and alien and not able to be understood by like larger society. They're less likely to want to rent or to - like rent to or hire asexual people, they're less likely want us as neighbours or friends or other casual connections. They see us as less human -
Hannah Witton
Ugh!
Evie Lupine
- like literally like on a scale of like measuring how like relatable to society and how human somebody is, they see asexual people as less human. Depending on which category you're looking at for that, it's a little bit of a complex study, but either at the same rate as a gay and lesbian people or even at the same rate as bisexual people, because bisexual people across the board tend to like score the worst and like, ace people are like, "We're right there with the bisexuals as well as far as like, people understanding who we are and respecting us as other human beings," so.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, it's both a personal thing. And then also as a social thing, as well. There's a lot of stigma that happens, for sure, that can be invisible.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've not read that study. But I have so many theories now about like, why that might be the case. And I think, like you said, like, people think of sex as being like one of the most human things. And so that would be why then suddenly, if you like, meet someone who doesn't seem interested in sex, why you would have that bias. And then, like you said, with the bisexuality as well, like, the kind of biphobia, what's the what's the like, word for it for ace - acephobia? Is that kind of -
Evie Lupine
Yeah, I've seen both acephobia and a phobia and I think aphobia is more the umbrella term for asexuality and aromanticism like put together.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, okay, that makes sense. But I guess like that manifests in thinking that bisexual people and like asexual people are untrustworthy. Like, that is a huge part. And then my other theory is that like, especially because you mentioned kind of it being like religious groups, is that if somebody is not interested in sex, how can you control them? Because religious groups are all about controlling sex and reproduction. And so if someone's like, "Well, I don't care," then you're like, "But how? How can I oppress you then?"
Evie Lupine
Yeah. "What do you mean?" And it's also like, "You're not conforming to my social values, right? Like, my social values are, you get married, you have kids, you have sex - especially if you're a woman, you're supposed to give sex to your husband as like your marital obligation. And you're saying you're not gonna do that? That's not okay with me." Like, they just don't understand it. But honestly, I think if religious people and conservative folks like if they had less of like a super tight grip on sexuality to the point where they needed to control it, they probably would understand ace people more because it wouldn't be this axis of control that they needed to worry about so much.
Hannah Witton
I want to move on to some of the BDSM stuff as well.
Evie Lupine
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
First of all, can you give us a brief overview of - because obviously, it's so broad, but like, what kind of like your specific interests are?
Evie Lupine
Oh, yeah, like just what I do. So I guess I'll just say like the acronyms of BDSM is like bondage, discipline, dominance, sadism, submission and masochism. So that's sort of like the broad overview.
Hannah Witton
There we go.
Evie Lupine
And it's like, the history behind how we came up with that term and how all of us different weirdos ended up coming together under one label is very fascinating. But me personally, I would say like my primary kinks - and the way that we use "kink", like, in the BDSM community is maybe different than like the dictionary definition, or like what a clinical sexologist would like define as a kink. But, you know, within BDSM, like my kinks would be bondage, pet play, sensation play, a little bit of like pain play or impact play, so that I wouldn't consider myself a masochist but I do engage in that kind of as like a function of some other things I'm into.
I am also a submissive. I do primarily like service submission. We can talk about what that is, if that's interesting to you or your audience in any way. You know, power exchange relationships - I really do as like a - I've had a lot of opportunities, I've been very fortunate to be able to explore a lot of kinks both because I have been with a lot of partners that have been in the scene for a long time that know how to do a lot of stuff and also because I am a nerd that likes to educate myself. And I've been able to go to classes and conferences and see a lot of stuff, understand it more, and then be able to try it, which is like, one of the reasons I have a YouTube channel is, you know, oftentimes people get into kink, and they think, "Oh, I have to like pick a thing, right? Like, I have to be a bondage person or like a submissive or a brat." Or whatever. And they have to stick with that one thing. Most people end up doing a rainbow of different activities, which is -
Hannah Witton
Trying it all on.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, makes it enjoyable.
Hannah Witton
That's one of my favourite things about your channel as well, because I personally have either no or very little interest personally in like most of the things that you talk about, but I love the detail of it, because I feel like from like the vanilla outside of the BDSM world, you just kind of see "BDSM" and it all just kind of like is under like one umbrella. But then it's just like all of these, like really specific things. And I love how you go into like the detail of it. So you mentioned service submission. That was one that was interesting.
Evie Lupine
So I will totally get get into that. Because I feel like especially for like a more mainstream platform, people are gonna be like, "What the heck is that?" So, service submission is a subcategory of dominant-submissive, or like power exchange relationships, just like when one person is giving up control or power to somebody else, and the other person is receiving it. There's a lot of debate in the community about if that's like the proper way of thinking about it, or the right terminology, but it's the most common one. So I'm gonna go with that. And for service submission, what that is about is the way that you give up power and control is by serving another person and giving things to them, essentially in my mind, to make their life easier and improve things for them in some demonstrable way. Right?
This could be anything from like helping them organise their office to making sure they take their pills every day to more fancy things like preparing a four course meal or helping them bathe or shaving their beard or something, like it can be a whole range of activities, but the underlying common component is that internal drive to help somebody's life be easier and then the person - ideally, this is the important part - the other person has to want it. You can't just like do the passive aggressive -
Hannah Witton
"Let me shave your beard!"
Evie Lupine
- yeah, I'd like to take my submission like, "I'm going to organise your office and then you should thank me for it." Like, it's not that. Like it's a negotiated thing. You still talk about it beforehand, because it's not service if other the person doesn't want it. You're just like, forcing somebody to enjoy a gift they didn't ask for.
Hannah Witton
Hmm, yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. I was thinking about, like, D/s relationships. And it being like, there needing to be two people there for that dynamic - at least two people there. But how do you kind of be a submissive - or like, you know, because for a lot of people, with BDSM, it's like a core part of their identity. For some, not for others. But if say being a submissive is like, 'this is a key part of my identity' but you don't have a partner, how do you kind of stay in touch with that part of yourself, that like submissive part of yourself, whilst single? Or well, the other way around, like the dominance side of yourself if you're a dominant.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, it's very interesting, because I find that dominants that don't have like, currently submissive partners - so there's, like, there's people who do D/s that are like D types, and S types, there's a million labels you can use for either one of those. And then there's people who are tops and bottoms that are not engaging in power exchange, they're just doing the actions of the scene or receiving the actions of a scene. And I find that most people that are dominant, that don't currently have partners - unless power exchange is the only thing they ever want to do, they will do scenes with people on maybe a more casual basis where they get to kind of get that energy out on like a scene by scene basis, like I just said, to be able to sort of express that without necessarily having that relationship present.
Evie Lupine
I do want to say, before I fully move on, I do want to note as well, for people listening that when I talked about service submission, you can do acts of service in a top/bottom way, where it's, it's about making somebody's life easier still and giving them a service but there's not that same level of power exchange connotation there. So there's kind of like two levels you can engage on that with.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, and then for submissives, that don't currently have a partner. Man, this is like such a common problem as every day in like our slash BDSM community, in my comment sections, livestreams, there's always people that are like, either they just lost a partner, or they're just getting into the scene and want to try a relationship or they're like, between partners, for whatever reason, they're like, "How do I keep being a submissive, and can I be a submissive if I don't have somebody to submit to?" And I have a video that I did that's about something called self-collaring, which is one of the big symbols that people use to identify having a power exchange relationship is the use of some kind of jewellery, typically something around the neck like a collar, in order to symbolise like devotion and the flow of power in the relationship, with the person wearing the collar being the one that's typically giving up power to the other person.
And there is a way, though some people that are more traditional kind of disagree with this - there is a way where you can collar yourself with like the intention of sort of not really submitting to yourself, but sort of prioritising your own self care, and preparing yourself for like the future relationship you want to have. And that could be things like, you know, saying a mantra every day, or coming up with some kind of like morning ritual, you know, with your coffee, or when you brush your teeth to sort of remind yourself of like what it is you're trying to, like, manifest in like a future relationship and building up your value. And I find that it's very important for people who want to be submissive, oftentimes we kind of get attracted to this because we maybe have self esteem issues or self confidence. And we want someone to kind of take charge of our life and like, help us fix their life. But I feel like the most important -
Hannah Witton
You also don't want to submit to just the first person who comes along and is like, "Yeah, I'll be your dom."
Evie Lupine
"I'll fix you. Hey, you know, random person on Twitter." I - lots of lots of people find their first internet partners through stuff like that. But yeah, you don't necessarily want to submit to the first person who comes along and promises to fix your life. And so I think it's better to prioritise kind of taking some charge in your own life with this sort of sense of like "I'm doing this because I want to be in a good place for a future relationship." Right? Working on you know, self esteem and self confidence. I actually have a book here that I just keep on my desk now because I always reference it. It's the Better Boundaries Workbook. I find oftentimes submissives especially -
Hannah Witton
A workbook!
Evie Lupine
Yeah, I got this at I think it was She Bop in Portland. And it's the Better Boundaries Workbook. It is by Sharon Martin, who's a licenced clinical social worker and has a master's in social work. So it's a really good interactive workbook for like helping you develop boundaries with people in your life and like difficult relationships. And I think having tools like that, if you like workbooks or audio books, or you know, guided apps, like even if it's just like meditation, especially, like metta meditation or like self love meditation can be really good. Again, working on skills related to boundaries. That will really set you up to be in a good place for finding a future partner and being able to say, "Hey, I really want to have this relationship. But having an anal only relationship is out of the picture. Like, that's not going to happen."
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Evie Lupine
So that's what I kind of hope people focus on. And then developing other skills that you would want to have in your relationship with a partner, you know, learning how to, you know, polish silverware, or becoming really efficient at doing laundry, figuring out how to fold towels, like they do it at like a hotel.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love that.
Evie Lupine
Like, sort of fun things that you can do that or simple to do, you can do for free online or with like vanilla books, things you can get from your library, just developing stuff that is fulfilling for you to do that kind of is a hobby, that's enjoyable, but also something -
Hannah Witton
Baking, like you said before, as well.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to ask you about - because you've made videos about all sorts of different BDSM activities and dynamics and the community and stuff. And what are some of the more like controversial things that you have talked about? Either within the BDSM community, like the reaction to the video is from fellow BDSM -BDSMers? Is that the term? - or more controversial from a like vanilla more mainstream perspective.
Evie Lupine
Oh, I've had sort of like, I think there's sort of three, there's like two main categories. And then one specific thing that I talked about, so I'll sort of give the short story first, which is a couple of years ago, pre pandemic, I went with on a vacation with my partner at the time around the UK. We started in London, we took a train up to - and now that I've thought about it I'm gonna say it wrong. Is it Edinburgh or Edinburgh? I'm always gonna say that wrong.
Hannah Witton
Edinburgh.
Evie Lupine
Edinburgh. Okay. I was like, I watch so much British TV that at this point I should know how to say it. But I basically have PTSD from like British people and Scottish people being mad at me in the comments.
Hannah Witton
Just do less syllables than you think.
Evie Lupine
So I was up there. And I went to a club called Torture Garden. And they host events and parties all over the place. They're really big in London. And I had shared the story of how when I went there, I was uncomfortable, not because I was an American in like a foreign country, but because the culture in Great Britain and in Europe is generally very different in BDSM clubs in the US. Like there tends to be a lot of drinking. There tends to be drinking that happens at the events. And there can be drug use. So not like openly, it's sort of like you know that people are going to the bathrooms, and they're doing stuff that maybe people don't like talk about it. And I like basically, as soon as I got there, I went into the bathroom to go change. And I had this lady that was like, very insistent about, like touching me. And I was wearing latex, which is like completely skin tight. And like she was being very aggressive about it. And then I had a similar instance, like a couple hours later on like the dance floor, I had people like come up behind me and like touch my head and touch me. Meanwhile, this club has like floor to ceiling posters that say like, "Don't touch people without their permission. Only yes means yes, no means no." And it's like, I thought that was a good sign. But maybe that might have been a warning that people in this club really need to like get a reminder.
Hannah Witton
If people are being told to not do something, it means they're doing it. That's not good.
Evie Lupine
Yeah. Especially in such a bold, a bold way. So I had a lot of people that were from the UK or part of scenes, you know, in Europe or somewhere that were basically like, "Well, you're an American, and you're not used to drinking, this is just how we do things here, like we can handle or drink. Like you're making a big deal out of nothing. Like, who cares. Like, if you're going to a club like that, that's kind of what you should expect." Like it was a lot of people that were really angry that I had like a negative opinion about an experience there. And it wasn't like, like, I love travelling around the UK. I loved everything else that I did. It was just that one club that I went to that I had a negative time with. And so that was something where it was a little bit of like a cultural, I guess, clash of maybe your expectations about -
Hannah Witton
There's like a defensiveness there, clearly.
Evie Lupine
Yeah. Because it wasn't like, I wasn't like, "I think British culture is this way." It was very particularly that club. And in my opinion, like, I don't really think that mixing strangers drinking and BDSM together is like a winning combination. So -
Hannah Witton
Especially with safety, I guess.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, very much the safety of it. Being able - it's the same thing with sex, right? Like anytime you're including an intoxicating substance, it makes it much harder to be able to give and receive a yes or no and have it be clear about where those lines actually are. Especially when it's somebody that you don't know. So, yeah, that was sort of like the one thing I said that I think from outsiders really provoked a lot of response from people that you know are maybe not necessarily part of BDSM themselves but were like, "Actually UK drinking culture is fine, stop implying otherwise."
Evie Lupine
And for things that are more within the BDSM community, there's two things that I talk about on a consistent basis that I am not myself, but that will always rile up some feathers, which would be brats. And either people that are into Daddy Dom/Little Girl or sort of relatedly people that are into Adult Baby Diaper Lovers stuff, and I just threw out like a bunch of acronyms. So should I slow down and explain any of those things in more detail?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz I know what those are from your videos. But yeah, feel free to explain what those are. And also I can see why the latter ones are controversial. I think it makes a lot of people even obviously, outside of the BDSM community as well just kind of go, "Uh?"
Evie Lupine
Yeah, there is very much a knee jerk reaction, and I get it to some extent, especially if you aren't familiar with BDSM at all, that like, superficially you would look at it and go, "I don't - I don't really know about all that." But so so DDLG Daddy Dom/Little Girl, and there is CGL is like the more kind of gender neutral version of that which is Caregiver/little, where the dominant partner is taking on kind of a paternal/maternal caregiver role to a partner and then the little partner is more of kind of the the 'guided charge' is what I would say in the most gender neutral way possible, where it's this relationship that is a power exchange relationship that is BDSM involving consenting adults, but it's really about the caretaking and the guidance and your partner - kind of it's almost sort of like, in some ways, like the inversion of service submission, where it's like, the dominant partner is the one really providing the service and making sure that, you know, if you're, you know, getting your master's degree, are you like studying enough? Or are you making enough progress on your papers? You know, are you remembering to take your vitamins and brush your teeth? And are you showering at least once a day, and, you know, I find a lot of people that are drawn to that, like, the reason they enjoy it is because it's sort of this way to be, you know, sort of like helped in a way that a lot of people aren't very comfortable in everyday life kind of talking about with their partners and kind of admitting in general that like, "Hey, it would be nice if I had help with like this stuff in my life." And I find especially a lot of people that are into it, they are like neurodivergent you know, they maybe have ADHD, or autism or other things that maybe like having a partner, like, help you remember to take your pills every day is very useful for, but yeah. And then ABDL, which is Adult Baby Diaper Lover, I would say the first category like CGL, or DDLG, is like a BDSM thing like entirely, like it's kind of under the umbrella of BDSM -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because it's like a power exchange, power dynamic.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, because it is very, it's very much based in a power exchange dynamic, whereas - because it's in the label. But ABDL, which is Adult Baby Diaper Lover, is kind of getting more into fetish territory, where some fetishes kind of belong in BDSM. But some fetishes and some people who do fetishes consider themselves separate. And ABDL is one of those spots where it kind of overlaps right in the middle between the two where like there are some ABDLs that are into BDSM and are in that lifestyle and community; other ones of them are not. Essentially it's where someone enjoys roleplaying being a baby as an adult. They don't believe that they're like a baby trapped in a child's or in an adult body. Like it's not - it's not that although if you go on YouTube, there are a lot of reactionaries that will like react to videos of people, you know, in diapers and go, "Oh my god, they're they they're crazy. They think that they're a baby trapped in an adult's body." It's not what it is. And then the Diaper Lover side of it are people that get enjoyment on some level, typically sexually, it's - actually this is very popular among men like it's disproportionately, sort of in order. cis men, trans women, and then cis women are sort of like the number of people that enjoy this.
Hannah Witton
I feel like in like pop culture and media I've mostly seen it depicted with cis men.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, that's very much like - and for what I know from the stats, and what we know about the community because it is fairly large, like it is mostly men, which is probably true for most fetishes. Like in general, most fetishes are primarily, you know, men are the ones that have them so that's kind of -
Hannah Witton
I wanna know why. I really want more research into fetishes because I'm just like, "What is going on here?"
Evie Lupine
Yeah, I mean, there's so many theories about where fetishes come from. And for my piece of it, I think that it's probably going to be some combination of like brain stuff, neurochemical stuff, you know, exposure to things in the womb, early first sexual experiences, things like that. But yeah, with ABDL, a lot of people are like, "Oh, you like fetishize -" and this is also true for DDLG as well "- oh my god, you fetishize being like children and like babies. And like, isn't that basically paedophilia?" And, no. And there's actually a really good interview that Vice did recently that they talked to - I think it's Rhoda Lipscomb is her name and she is a clinical sexologist that specialises in working with people that have ABDL fetishes and related kinks alongside that, and from what she knows as a person, as a clinician that's worked on this, and also what I know from the studies, there is no connection whatsoever between people that have this particular kink or fetish and paedophilia in any way because it's between consenting adults, and the things that like paedophiles are attracted to and the things that ABDLS are into are like, completely different. Like, diaper lovers like it because they fetishize like, the sensation of wearing a diaper. Like that's like - they like the crinkling and the noise and like, maybe the humiliation of it -
Hannah Witton
Of somebody wiping their bum.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, like they're into like, yeah, exactly. They're into that caretaking aspect of it. There's a million reasons for it. But none of them are like - it's one of those situations where you have like, two butterflies at a distance look very similar. But then when you look up close, and like study the wings, you go, "Oh, this is orange. And this one's like, yellow and orange and black." And it's like, they're actually pretty different. But you know, from far away, and if you wanted to be outraged about it, you could very easily decide to be outraged about it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah.
Evie Lupine
People always come on my videos whenever I talk about like - cuz again, I'm not into this myself, but I feel really badly because almost all the media representation of it outside of like, there's like one kind of good older TLC episode and then kind of the more recent thing that Vice did where they interviewed some people, most of it is like, "Oh my god, look at these weirdos, look at these freaks." And so people come to my videos expecting to hear that same sentiment echoed again, because of, you know, if 99% of YouTube is saying this one thing is bad, it's very weird when somebody else comes in and says, "Actually, this is - it's not like 'normal' in the sense that it's not common. But it's also not like this bizarre, freakish thing that deserves like outright hatred, either."
Hannah Witton
We have a few questions from folks on Instagram.
Evie Lupine
Oh great.
Hannah Witton
Somebody asked: thoughts on CNC, which is consensual non consent, getting popular and mainstream? And they've added the comment: scary for many.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, that's very true.
Hannah Witton
I mean, this is a huge topic.
Evie Lupine
Yes, so it's funny, I recently did an Instagram q&a, which the actual video I think is going to be up in like a week. And I got like at least four different questions about consensual non consent, but not this question.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, really?
Evie Lupine
So this is, this is good. Sort of covers a different area. So CNC, or consensual non consent - it's interesting, because I almost I wouldn't say it's gotten popular, because I think that sort of a misunderstanding of what consensual non consent is. I think acts that people associate with consensual non consent have gotten popular, pretty much and especially choking. Like, that's what people -
Hannah Witton
Right, so like rough sex.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, like sort of rough sex in general. But the thing is, is that very often times choking is not, like done in a consensual way, like people are not asking upfront for consent. They're, they're either checking in after, be like, "Was that good for you?" Which is like better than nothing. Or they just kind of go, "I heard women were into this so I started doing it in bed, and no one's complained yet. So it's probably fine." And that getting popular is definitely worrying for me, because it's taking this thing that even within BDSM is like it's not allowed at most dungeons, it's not allowed at most play spaces, because of how risky it is. And because of how quickly it can go wrong or go too far or misused in some way.
Hannah Witton
Is it also because like, as a viewer, like as somebody observing a scene, it looks non consensual, but obviously, the consent has been negotiated previously, so that could also be damaging to like observers, I guess, maybe?
Evie Lupine
Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's also the element of it of like, if you're seeing that it can definitely be potentially triggering to people. There's a whole debate within BDSM spaces about like how do we navigate kind of giving everyone a space to express what their enjoyments are without like alienating people who feel uncomfortable being around that stuff. So that's definitely something that we we try to navigate being around but especially if you are, you know, more used to a non kink interpretation of things. Like I think taking what is a, typically in BDSM, a very highly skilled, highly negotiated, understood to be very risky thing being taken into kind of the mainstream culture's understanding of consent, which is basically non existent. That to me is very scary. And that's what worries me is that there's been some kind of conflicting research about this. There's one researcher that is like, her whole thing is studying like choking on college campuses. And that's like, the thing that she really looks into. And a lot of it is like, enjoyed by people, like a lot of it is very enjoyed. But when you look at sort of the breakdown of like gender orientation, or gender identity and like sexual orientation, people that are bisexual and trans people tend to have the most negative experiences with choking. And so there's sort of the potential that maybe this is kind of being used as like sort of a permissive form of sexual violence towards minority like,sex and gender people. That's very much concerning. But yeah, I think if you are taking the principles of consensual non consent, you know, emphasis on the consent and negotiation, I'm not worried about that in a general way. It's the specific acts that I worry about not taking those values alongside it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Okay. Someone asked a question relating to asexuality. So I want to kind of jump back to that as well. Someone asked: tips on navigating internalised guilt as an ace person in a relationship with a non ace person.
Evie Lupine
Oh, this is - that's a good one, because that is something that a lot of ace people struggle with. Because the solution I think people instinctively go to is like, "Well, why don't you just date other ace people." It's like, "How am I gonna find like -" First of all, whenever I interact with other people, we're all instantly friends. Like, we're all like, "Oh my gosh, there's, there's other ones like me, let's be friends and talk about our ace problems." Like there's not usually a romantic spark that happens there for some reason, but most people that are ace are going to end up in relationships with people that are non asexual themselves, in some fashion, and there is a lot of either guilt from like society, and like friends that are like, "Oh my gosh, like, is your partner, okay? Like, are you doing enough for them? Are they're getting their needs met?" Like, it's outside worry, even if your partner is fine with it. And then there's also the layer of like, sometimes your partner is not really fine with it. And sometimes they've wish that they could have more sex with you, or that you actively enjoyed it more, or that you asked for sex more, like you were the initiator. And it's really hard to deal with that guilt, because everyone else around you is telling you that what you're doing is wrong. That like, you should be doing something different.
And I think the way that I've kind of learned to deal with it - and it's not a perfect solution - is to understand that, like my preferences and boundaries are allowed to be what they are, that I'm allowed to be in relationships where those things are respected and expect them to be respected. And if people do not like the way that I relate to sexuality, or I'm not having enough sex for them, or especially outside people, outside people that have opinions about my relationship can just fuck off. Like, like, if my partner's fine with it, that's what matters to me. But it's more like the dealing with the partner guilt, it's like, you know, you don't have to be in a relationship with me if you don't think that, like, our sexuality levels are compatible. And that's perfectly acceptable and fine. And at some point, you got to know when to, like, walk away from something that's ultimately kind of going to hurt both of you because their needs aren't being met and also, if you try too hard to meet their needs, you'll probably end up hurting yourself in the process. And that's really difficult. Which is why, like, again, the better boundaries workbook in terms of like, figuring out how to set up your boundaries as an ace person into relationships, and giving yourself the power to feel respected and to not let the guilt control you, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Do you often hear, as well, people give the advice of like, "Well, why doesn't the non ace person, like, get their needs met elsewhere?" Does that come up a lot?
Evie Lupine
It does sometimes, because I am also polyamorous and so like my partners have the ability to have sex with other people. But because sex is seen as like a really important bonding thing of relationships, most people do still want to have sex with like the romantic, like, primary partner or just their partners in general. So it's not really a perfect substitute in things like masturbating for most people are not considered a complete replacement for sex with a partner. And so it's, it's, you can't just be like, "Well, get your needs met somewhere else." Like on a very like, basic, like, you feel the need to like, release your semen kind of a way, like a biological way, like, I guess it satisfies it, but not in typically in an emotional or mental way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz there's a difference between like physically needing or wanting an orgasm versus like wanting to have that specific kind of connection with your partner.
Evie Lupine
And for some people that solves the problem. Like for some people, "Oh, like, I go to a strip club, and I get to see sexy ladies, or I see a sex worker or I have other sex partners that are more casual." Like having that and having that kind of physical release helps. And it helps maintain the emotional connection of the relationship with the ace person, but you can't just like have that as a solution. Because navigating that is very emotionally and mentally complicated. And frankly, a lot of relationships that don't start open in that way do not survive the opening process because of how much work it takes to get through that.
Hannah Witton
The opening process. Well, oh my goodness, I wish we had time to also get into all the polyamory stuff, but people can just go to your YouTube channel for all of that, because honestly, it's brilliant. And there's so much stuff there. Thank you so much, Evie. Do you want to plug away like where people can find you and more of like what you do online?
Evie Lupine
Yeah, so my primary social media is I'm on YouTube as Evie Lupine. I'm on Twitter as @evielupine. That's where I do all of my rants, all of the time. I'm a very ranty person on Twitter if you like that kind of thing. I am technically on Instagram, but I'm always afraid of getting my account deleted. So I am on there as @evielupine. I basically post a story once every six months, and that's like about the level of engagement I will do on there, as a forewarning. And then, in particular, for people who want to ask me questions. I do live streams every Friday on my YouTube channel that start at 6pm my time, which is like 9pm on the East Coast, and like 2am in the UK or something ridiculous. So if you're in Europe, it might not work for you. But I do have a format and a place for people specifically to ask questions if we couldn't get to their questions today. But yeah, that's where I am. Oh, and I'm on Patreon as well, Evie Lupine, but you can't find me on there if you search for me, because I'm a not safe for work content creator, technically because I talk about BDSM. But if you're on YouTube, that's where you can find me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we'll post all of the links. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye.
Evie Lupine
Yeah, thank you!