How To "Fix" Painful Sex with Fran Bushe | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Fran Bushe
So sometimes I've been like, oh God, I haven't made a - I haven't made a noise in ages, quick, make a noise and I'll just be like, ahhh, a panicked sex noise.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. Before we get into this episode, I've got some very exciting news. We've got our first live recording coming up. It's going to be at Summer in the City, which is a YouTube festival in London, on Saturday the 10th of August. So if you're already going to be at SitC, then you can catch a live recording of Doing It with Melanie Murphy on the Saturday, at 1pm. Or if you're interested in coming along, you can get day tickets for the Saturday and come and listen and hang out.
Hannah Witton
But on to the matter at hand. This week's guest is Fran Bushe, she is a comedian, and a writer. You might have seen posters for her show Ad Libido, which she performed at the Soho Theatre earlier this year, which is all about how to fix sex. We talk a lot about her experience writing the show, and the inspiration behind it of having painful sex, and not enjoying sex, and never really learning that sex could be pleasurable for women. We tell stories such as using a lemon and honey throat sweet during oral sex, and coming in your sleep. And since recording this episode, Fran has announced that she is writing a book, writing a book all about vaginas. And she is crowdsourcing a bunch of stories about people, and their vaginas, and their vulvas. So if you have a vulva, and you fancy sharing your stories with Fran to potentially be included in her book, then we'll leave a link in the show notes which you can find at DoingItPodcast.co.uk, or just head over to Fran's Twitter, and the link will be there. But, for now, you can listen to Fran sharing about her vulva, her vagina, and her sexual experiences, and how she has tried to fix sex. I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hannah Witton
So, Fran.
Fran Bushe
Hi.
Hannah Witton
Hi. You're here because you have written a show.
Fran Bushe
I have.
Hannah Witton
A comedy show that I've seen, called Ad Libido. Why is it called that?
Fran Bushe
It's called Ad Libido. I went through lots of different ideas for titles. One of them was Shag, You're It. Like a number - Great Sexpectations - a number of like good bad sex pun titles.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, those are all brilliant.
Fran Bushe
So I think I was thinking about different puns, and then to ad lib kind of means just to go off on one a bit. And I was like oh, ad libidio, add some libido, I would like more libido, please.
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Fran Bushe
But then I also learned that add libido actually means at your pleasure.
Hannah Witton
Wait, what?
Fran Bushe
I didn't know that. It means sort of like -
Hannah Witton
In Latin or something?
Fran Bushe
Yeah. So I'm smarter than I ever knew
Hannah Witton
That's brilliant. You should be like, so I went through my Latin dictionary -
Fran Bushe
Yes, absolutely, it was well researched.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
I had a team.
Hannah Witton
Etymologists.
Fran Bushe
Absolutely, professors globally all over the world helps me choose it. No, I just love a pun.
Hannah Witton
You're like, I need something smart, funny, sexual, yeah.
Fran Bushe
It was called How to Fix Sex for a while.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz I think, I don't know, because when I saw it was definitely Ad Libido, but maybe that was like a subtitle or something.
Fran Bushe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But you also say that a lot in the show.
Fran Bushe
I do. I think I knew that the mission of the show was that I wanted to fix sex. I wanted to fix sex for myself. But how to fix sex is a lot of words on a poster, so Ad Libido was just shorter!
Hannah Witton
Practical.
Fran Bushe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So what's the show about? Or, why are you trying to fix sex? Is there a problem?
Fran Bushe
Well, well, this is this is the whole thing. Erm so yeah, I've always found sex a bit challenging, found it a bit difficult. When I first started to try and have sex with early boyfriends, I found it really painful. Really painful and they just wouldn't go in, couldn't get their penis inside me at all, and I just thought I was broken. I thought I was, I wrote in my diary that I'm not - wasn't wired up right. You know, I'm meant to be - sex is meant to be the easiest thing in the world. Everything's meant to click into place, we're meant to come every time. We're meant to be gushing wet all the time. And I just found that I didn't fit that at all. I was finding it so difficult. And there is this point where you're like, oh, maybe I'm - maybe I'm just not meant to have sex. Maybe that's not for me. And then when sex is painful, you don't necessarily look forward to having it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and that makes it worse as well.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, and then you put someone else in that situation. So you're, you know, obviously, you can have sex on your own, but some of the time you are having it with someone else. And then you're like, looking after their feelings. And so I think I yeah, I guess a lot of the time I was having sex for someone else, rather than for myself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Like as a - this is maintenance sex.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, I guess like we, we have all different kinds of sex, right? We have sex for pleasure, we have sex because we just had a fight, we have sex because we're bored, sex because we're hungry. And -
Hannah Witton
Sex because we're tired.
Fran Bushe
Yeah. Like, it's sometimes sex because you've just - I want, I want to know that you like me. Sex because I want to show you that I like you. And sex has all these different purposes. And so I think sex for me became something in the relationship to, yeah, I guess kind of a maintenance is a really good way of putting it. Going, well, this is something that you want, and you need, and I'm going to give that to you. I still very much want sex, I think it just was so difficult -
Hannah Witton
Like the idea of it, rather than the actual sex that you're having.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, absolutely. I think the desire was there.
Hannah Witton
I think it's really interesting what you said about, like, how you thought it should have been easy, and like it clicking into place, because I feel like that is such a message that we're given. That because sex is meant to be like, this human instinct, like natural or whatever. Like, because it's wired in us, because we have to reproduce, that we should just know how to have sex.
Fran Bushe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's like, it's so it's never actually taught of like, hey, this is like, actually, how you do it. Yeah, this is some tips and tricks. This is like things you should be looking out for. This is the very wide range of normal, but it may be over here is where you might need to go to the doctor and like, talk to someone.
Fran Bushe
Well no one tells you, well, certainly no one told me that women were meant to enjoy sex. No one said that that was a thing. I got that there must be a reason that we were meant to do it. But no one, like you don't get told in sex education about the female orgasm. That's not something we're ever explicitly told. You're not taught about like your main sexual organs. You're taught about the in and out, and that's kind of it.
Hannah Witton
Biology reproduction. Yes.
Fran Bushe
And my best guess, I'm not a doctor, but my best guess is the reason sex was painful for me was because me and my boyfriend did not know about foreplay, at all. And so he was just going, trying to go straight in.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh -
Fran Bushe
Because, and of course, I'm a teenager, I'm thinking, I really want to have this.
Hannah Witton
And you're like, tensing up, because you've been taught your entire life like, oh, the first time you have sex is gonna hurt. Or like, it normally hurts for girls. So like, just grin and bear it.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, absolutely. And so I think if we had known, I mean, even, I guess why, so I'm 32 now, and it's only now that I'm like, wow, actually, sex doesn't have to be penetration, like at all. Before, that was the gold standard of sex.
Hannah Witton
That is like real sex.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, and everything else was sort of the pretend stuff that we do on our way to sex. And also like, on our way to sex for them. I'd always thought of sex as being something for men, really. My orgasm was kind of something for them.
Hannah Witton
It was like a proof to them that they did a good job.
Fran Bushe
That they were a great lover, and I wanted them to think that they were really, really great lover.
Hannah Witton
Have you faked a lot of orgasms?
Fran Bushe
So many. I am I'm really good at it. I think I'm nuanced.
Hannah Witton
Do you have like a variety of, depending on like, what, who the person is, or like how you're feeling like, if you go like, the silent orgasm or like, really loud moan on, or like weird squeaky sounds?
Fran Bushe
Yeah, definitely. I think I especially excel at the weird squeaky, kind of like ugly orgasm. Like it can't be too beautiful sounding. I really want them to know they're so good at sex that I've sort of lost control of all my vocal faculties and just, yeah, groaning and grunting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
All over the place. And sometimes, one of the main things about sex for me is I find it really hard to keep my mind in the room. So I'm thinking about all of the other things, and so sometimes I've been like, oh God, I haven't made a noise in ages, quick, make a noise and I'll just go, ahhhh, panic, a panicked sex noise. Yeah, I find it really hard to keep my mind on the job in hand. If there's anything else on my brain, just trying to click in to being present in the mind.
Hannah Witton
Mindfulness.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, like I keep being like, okay, go into your vagina, what can you feel in your vagina, okay, there's a penis in your vagina. Stay present with the penis. But what about, what about Brexit? Oh my god, what's for dinner? Did I lock the front door? Oh my goodness. No, in my vagina, in my vagina.
Hannah Witton
Is the oven on?
Fran Bushe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh man.
Fran Bushe
Trying to stay present in my vag.
Hannah Witton
That should, that's the new tagline for Ad Libido.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
So my first port of call was going to the doctor, which I think is most people's first stop. Also I think when I was -
Hannah Witton
It's not always people's first stop though, like that's pretty -
Fran Bushe
There wasn't a lot of, there wasn't as much internet when I was 16 as there is now. I think now, my access to information would be much better.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I bet Cosmo didn't have like, what if you're having painful sex? It was just -
Fran Bushe
How to give a good blowjob. Yeah, and yeah, I remember, it's Cosmopolitan, there's always one I remember that said about putting a menthol sweet in your mouth to give a blowjob.
Hannah Witton
Oh, minty
Fran Bushe
Because it would be really tingley for your partner.
Hannah Witton
Have you tried that?
Fran Bushe
Well, we did it the other way round with a lozenge, it wasn't - like a Halls, like a lemon and honey soother.
Hannah Witton
Like a throat sweet.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, it just gave you a very sort of yellowy discharge for a while, um -
Hannah Witton
Wait so did that go inside you or -
Fran Bushe
So he put it in his mouth.
Hannah Witton
Uh huh.
Fran Bushe
And then went down on me, and it didn't tingle. It just kind of it slightly burned. And also as a as a throat sweet gets sucked down, it gets a little sharp around the edges. I mean it wasn't wasn't my favourite.
Hannah Witton
And then the yellow discharge afterwards sounds great.
Fran Bushe
That stayed for longer than it should. It was a very yellow sweet. I don't know what colorings they put in those. A lot of yellow went in those sweets. But yeah, I went to the doctors and I think, you know, I at 16 I found it really hard to say words like vagina.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
So I went to the doctors and yeah, 16 not not very comfortable saying words like vagina. Didn't even know vulva was a thing. Even saying things like sex were probably quite scary.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
And so I really built up all my courage, went in, I think I went in with a few other things so I could be like oh, I've got a sore knee, and a sore foot, and also I find sex quite painful. Because it felt like a really scary thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you come in, and like oh, also this other thing which is actually the main reason you're there.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, just this tiny thing.
Hannah Witton
Whilst I'm here.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, I won't keep you but. And I, I guess i didn't know I didn't really know it could be a thing. I didn't know experiencing pain during sex was a thing, I just thought there was something wrong with me anatomically or in my brain and they -
Hannah Witton
Is this a good doctor or a bad doctor experience?
Fran Bushe
My experience with the doctor was terrible.
Hannah Witton
Oh no!
Fran Bushe
Yeah, I think over time I've - I've been about - I've been a few times and they have said things ranging from like put some Savlon on the problem area, have a glass of wine to loosen up a bit.
Hannah Witton
Oh, this is doctors?
Fran Bushe
Yeah, go out and have more sex, you just have a very underused vagina.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Fran Bushe
Yeah I remember them saying that, with a finger inside my vagina, feeling how underused it was. But we all know that's not how vaginas work. Vaginas don't get looser from sex.
Hannah Witton
They literally shrink back. Like it's not a hole, there is there is not a like a hole inside us waiting to be filled.
Fran Bushe
No.
Hannah Witton
It like, you push something inside, it like opens, and then it back again. Wow.
Fran Bushe
So it wasn't a good experience. And I haven't haven't actually had an experience with a doctor that I would say is positive. But I do always say that, you know, what I would never want to happen is for someone not to go to the doctors about experiencing pain during sex.
Hannah Witton
Because there are amazing GPs out there.
Fran Bushe
There are, there are some incredible GPs .
Hannah Witton
It might be a case of like getting a second opinion, and like you can always ask for a female doctor as well, if that makes you feel more comfortable.
Fran Bushe
Absolutely. And there are also like clinics that you can go to, you can ask for a referral for psychosexual counselling. Not all experiences are like mine. Unfortunately, it is quite common. A lot of women I've spoken to have had a similar experience. But there are good doctors out there that will refer -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just the idea that women are supposed to experience some kind of pain or discomfort during sex is just so pervasive that it's just not taken seriously.
Fran Bushe
Well this is it,I think I probably endured pain for longer than I should have done, because I was like well, first time should hurt. I think it took maybe six months of me and my boyfriend trying before we managed to get his penis in, and then yeah, sex was painful. Definitely like it was probably = I think I then went to the doctors again at 21 because I'd felt so stupid for going that first time. I felt so like I'd wasted their time, you know, because although sex is very important, and it's important for wellbeing, and our health in lots of ways, it doesn't feel as pressing as having a broken arm. It doesn't feel as pressing as a lot of other medical conditions. It feels like a bit of a luxury problem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I totally get that.
Fran Bushe
Like, oh no, this girl, she can't have an orgasm. But everything else -
Hannah Witton
It's like, well you're not gonna die from that, so.
Fran Bushe
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Can you still make babies? Right, as you were.
Fran Bushe
Yeah and I think that is, that's really the crux of the problem. Is that women sort of are seen as baby making machines a lot of the time, and so if whether you enjoy the sex or not it's sort of a different issue, medically, and not seen as important.
Hannah Witton
And it, yeah, you're right about like, the luxury problem thing. Like it's seen as a privilege to like have nothing else wrong in your life, that you go to the doctor to make your sex better.
Fran Bushe
And it's a really difficult one to gauge because obviously we only experience our own sex.
Hannah Witton
Yeah and so we have nothing to compare to what's normal, other than what you see like in porn.
Fran Bushe
Well, this is it. So there's always, I've had a lot of people say well you know how do you not think you're sort of just reaching for the stars? Do you not think that you're putting really high expectations on yourself?
Hannah Witton
If anything, you've got really low expectations because you're like I just want to like have a dick inside me, and it not be painful.
Fran Bushe
That would be really great. Yeah. I think, but it is really difficult because you're right about porn as well you know, we see that kind of sex and we think okay. So a lot of porn follows the same pattern you know, there's, there's a blow job, and then he'll go down on her for maybe 45 seconds.
Hannah Witton
Just lubing her up with his saliva.
Fran Bushe
I know right, yeah. And then she'll come twice, in different positions. So you think okay, there's this is rhythm to it. That's how we have to have sex.
Hannah Witton
And then he comes on her tits, or back.
Fran Bushe
Yeah. Or face, or up the wall, with a bit of a splash on the camera screen.
Hannah Witton
I've never seen one of those. I'm very grateful.
Fran Bushe
I mean, me neither. Yeah. I think it's hard not to compare to that. And also I think people aren't always honest about the kind of sex that they are having. And so, I remember at university talking about it for the first time and just be like, actually I find sex quite painful. And the group of friends I was with Whoa, whoa, that's -
Hannah Witton
We don't talk about that.
Fran Bushe
No. I have to great sex, I come all the time, maybe like several times every night, different ways.
Hannah Witton
I hate having those conversations because I'm just like, I feel inadequate.
Fran Bushe
Yes, so inadequate, and then -
Hannah Witton
Like, why isn't my body performing like that?
Fran Bushe
I want to be like -
Hannah Witton
I want to be a nipple orgasm kind of gal. My boobs have like, no sensitivity as well. It's just like, cool. You can feel my boobs, you're getting loads from this. I'm getting nothing.
Fran Bushe
It's hard, isn't it? Cuz I'm like, well, maybe if I like touch my boobs a lot, the sensitivity will grow? And maybe I can invest time in this.
Hannah Witton
This is the thing, I've no idea. No one's probably like, done the research to like, figure out why you some people have sensitive boobs, and why some people don't.
Fran Bushe
Some people can come from just thinking about coming.
Hannah Witton
I mean, I can do that. But like in my sleep.
Fran Bushe
Whoa.
Hannah Witton
But like sometimes I can kind of lucid dream where, oh my god, I had - this is only like a recent adult thing of having wet dreams. I feel like a lot of boys go through like teenage years having wet dreams, whereas like, I went through my teenage years having no, no orgasms like nothing. And then as an adult, like I was just, I think, do you know what it was, it was because I think it was because I didn't know that it could happen for women until I was having a conversation with a friend. And my friends just mentioned, oh, I sometimes like wake up coming, like, from like coming in my sleep. And I was like, what? Is that real? And then literally, maybe a few weeks later, it was starting to happen to me. Because like, it wasn't in my realm of like, that's a thing that exists. So my body like, I don't know, it's wild. I was like, holy shit. Now my body can do that because my brain is aware that it's possible.
Fran Bushe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
How weird is that?
Fran Bushe
So much of it happens in our brain. Well, all of it happens in our brain.
Hannah Witton
I hear, I'm not sure who I heard this from, but like a sex educator that I follow was saying your biggest sexual organ is your brain.
Fran Bushe
It is.
Hannah Witton
And I was like, I love that.
Fran Bushe
You're right. I think as well, it's about giving yourself permission right? Okay, body, you can do this thing. And I think, yeah, I think for me a lot of the time, I just didn't know, I didn't know so many things. I remember my first ever boyfriend asking to go down on me. He said, can I lick you out? And I remember finding that such a strange thing to be asked, and thinking, God, this must be all, this is all for you. What are you getting out of this? And I insisted that we turn the lights off. And then he spent about 45 minutes slurping is the only word I can use for it.
Hannah Witton
Thats a real long time.
Fran Bushe
And I didn't know I was meant to enjoy it. And I think the moment I learned about that was when I started to be able to enjoy that. Because my brain was in a different frame of mind.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you have to like shift the framework of like, actually how you're thinking about it. That's so interesting.
Fran Bushe
A lot of the time I have to be like, right, you are going to enjoy sex. Sex is going to be great. I have to almost give myself a pep talk. Like, you can orgasm, you can do this.
Hannah Witton
Do find that actually helpful?
Fran Bushe
I think, yeah, because what more than that being helpful, sometimes I get stuck in a negative frame of mind, which is, oh sex is going to be painful. You're not going to be wet enough, you're not going to come, raise your hips a bit and he'll come quicker. Like these are the things you can do to make it quicker, so you can get to the spooning afterwards that you really like. So you can get to the nice bit, for you.
Hannah Witton
To the dessert.
Fran Bushe
And so for me, I guess so much of it is in your brain. I have to be like okay, what can we do? Dear brain, what can we do to make this a nice experience? What can we do? So you're not just thinking like, where's the ejector seat for this experience? How do I how do I enjoy this? How am I not just dreading it?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Is this something that you've been able to talk about with partners?
Fran Bushe
A lot of the time, yes. It's been it's been real up and down. I would say some partners made it all about them, and very much -
Hannah Witton
Like, challenge accepted.
Fran Bushe
Yeah. A little bit like, okay, I can make this work. I'm gonna do this. I'm the guy, my penis is the key, and I'm gonna unlock your vagina with the magic key. And then and there's a real pressure there. Because you're having sex, you're both in the sex together, and they think they're doing really good work? Like -
Hannah Witton
And what they want afterwards is you to be like, you did great honey.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, high five. And then what do you do? Because it's, you know, it's their emotions. It's their sense of pride and self. And so a lot of times I have been like, wow, you were the one to, well done. That is good work all round. Yeah, I'd say, certainly -
Hannah Witton
You fixed me, brilliant.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, no more problem. But then you can't talk openly about it again, because they fixed you, and so if you find it painful again or if you're not enjoying it -
Hannah Witton
So you have to dump them.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, or you have to just keep lying, which is not, a relationship can't really exist in those circumstances. I've had - I've had men who have been really, they found me doing the show very difficult.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. Lots of ex partners come to watch?
Fran Bushe
Ex partners who've come to watch. But I've also dated people as I've been doing the show. There's been a few who found me talking on stage about my vagina, me talking on stage about exes, very difficult. And said they couldn't - they couldn't enjoy sex while I was talking about sex on stage. I don't know if it was a fear of them becoming show material, which I, you know, I guess I do understand that.
Hannah Witton
Well, it's that fear of like, well, if it's not good, she's gonna then go talk about this onstage?
Fran Bushe
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's an extra pressure on them, I guess. Um, but also, I realised that -
Hannah Witton
It's not about them.
Fran Bushe
No. And some people don't like women knowing what they want in bed. Some people really find that threatening, they find it a bit of a power shift. I guess there's a lot of power going on in sex, isn't there?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What's that phrase? It's like, everything is sex. Everything is about sex, except sex, which is about power.
Fran Bushe
That's great.
Hannah Witton
Something. Yeah. Quote me on that, but not, don't. I don't know.
Fran Bushe
I like it. No, I think that's really accurate. And I think also, I guess, a lot of my show is about learning to use my voice, and ask for what I want, and learning what I want, and being okay being on my own and not having sex that I don't want. You know, sometimes I was having sex because I missed the night bus home and I was staying somewhere, and I thought, well, this is like a tithe almost. Like I've, we've been on a date, I suppose we're gonna have sex. Okay. And a lot of, yeah, a lot of my show is about me finding that voice. And some people I dated didn't really like that I had found it, because it made them worry about their own, like where did they stand within that? Like, the confidence of knowing what you want was quite threatening, I think.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Fran Bushe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Dangerous woman.
Fran Bushe
We're not together anymore.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. It's like, oh, the threat, like the dangerous woman is a woman who knows herself.
Fran Bushe
Yeah. I don't know if they thought it made them a bit irrelevant somehow, or like that they, they said that communication during sex ruined the element of surprise. Yeah, yeah. we had a big conversation about consent, because I think consent is really sexy. Like, really sexy. Like -
Hannah Witton
What is, what did he mean? Surprise? Like, ooh, surprise. I'm now trying to put my dick in you.
Fran Bushe
Well, like I think if I asked for certain things, it meant he couldn't surprise me with things. Like he was basically just fulfilling my checklist menu. Rather than him being like, oh, I've got this special move, and it's gonna work. I think one of the other -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm going to do this thing, as a surprise. I'm not gonna actually ask you if you're into it.
Fran Bushe
Yeah. And then of course, I'll feel a pressure to be like, oh, yes, that isn't that nice. You're getting all my best sex chat here.
Hannah Witton
I really want to talk about the sex camp that you went to.
Fran Bushe
Sure.
Hannah Witton
So yes, sex camp, question mark.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, so it was a festival, and a group of people gather in the countryside, and there are workshops. And, really, for me, I thought I was going to fix sex. I thought being in an environment that was very focused on sex and pleasure, I might learn a thing or two.
Hannah Witton
And something would click.
Fran Bushe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
You'd unlock your sex potential.
Fran Bushe
Absolutely, the - the rivers would flow. And so what I hadn't expected was that this sex camp was nothing to do with penetration at all. It was all about intimacy, and touch, and slowing down, and being with yourself, and your body. And, yeah, it really opened a lot of doors for me because I would find it so much more difficult to look into someone's eyes than to have sex with them.
Hannah Witton
Was there a lot of like eye staring?
Fran Bushe
There was a lot of eye gazing. And it's interesting because apparently that creates oxytocin, and you're much more likely to orgasm. And same with hugging and all these things. I think essentially, sex camp was just a big experiment in oxytocin creation. We were so happy all the time. Like -
Hannah Witton
Was it a bit culty?
Fran Bushe
Very culty. Like I couldn't have felt sad, even if sad things were going on. I couldn't access sad at all. Yeah, it made me realise that I, there was just certain things I need. And they're not things I'm necessarily very comfortable with. Like, I do, I need time during sex. I like a candle lit, I like romance. I can't have a quickie, I can't do it. I struggle to have morning sex. My brain just isn't in the right place for it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
I want, again, it comes back to like expectation and what we think we should have and what we think we want. I want to be able to be like, pants down, let's go.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
Don't need any of this romantic stuff.
Hannah Witton
Do you know what I find? Like when I find myself frustrated with the like, what I want and those expectations, and then actually the barriers that I'm working with in terms of like my mind and my body and actually like actually what I can do versus what like I want to do. I just bridge that gap with masturbation fantasies. So I can like still enjoy those things that actually, in real life, not gonna happen. And I'm fine with that because I can live it out perfectly in my head, without the disappointment.
Fran Bushe
Wow.
Hannah Witton
Pro tip people
Fran Bushe
Great, I'll give it a go.
Hannah Witton
Masturbation fantasies.
Fran Bushe
Great.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Solved it, fixed it.
Fran Bushe
All right, job done. I'm gonna cancel the show. Yeah, I think I guess I was expecting to then, so midway through sex camp, I had sex with a person and because I -
Hannah Witton
Was that encouraged, or was that something that just naturally happened?
Fran Bushe
No.
Hannah Witton
Ooo.
Fran Bushe
It was not encouraged. Well, you could have, I guess, again it was, when I say sex, I mean, like penetrative sex. You could do all the other kinds of stuff, that was really encouraged.
Hannah Witton
Was everyone like super horny? Like, by a certain point, and everyone was like, I'm raring to go.
Fran Bushe
They were probably on a very steady level of constant arousal, I'd say, but they were just really cheerful. Really cheerful. You know, you'd be eating your dinner next to them, and be like, I saw your penis yesterday. As you're eating your aubergine casserole.
Hannah Witton
Because you had someone staring at your yoni.
Fran Bushe
I did. I got my yoni worshipped.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that was it.
Fran Bushe
Yeah. Which was interesting.
Hannah Witton
Yoni means vulva.
Fran Bushe
It does, yes. Because I guess, like growing up, I went, I was in a school where the vulva and the vagina were seen as quite disgusting things, and it was called your fish. Everyone was like, close your fish, all the time. That was the thing like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, what's that smell coming from? Close your legs.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, absolutely. And so I just, I grew up thinking it was this ugly, awful thing, that no one would want to look at, and most of the time, like, I love oral sex. But the thing that's in my head, that sometimes stops me enjoying it is like, is it clean? Is it, does it look okay? Is it too hairy? Not hairy enough? Like all of the things, all of the aesthetic -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
Oral sex context that's going on.
Hannah Witton
Like, holy shit, their face is right down. Like cuz you can't get in that position with your own vulva -
Fran Bushe
No, like, that's really up close and personal. So all of that stuff is in my head, stopping me being able to enjoy the moment. So actually lying down and having someone just look at it. I mean, I was totally in the cult at this point.
Hannah Witton
I mean, when in Rome.
Fran Bushe
Absolutely right. But there was something in being observed, just being like, and not in a sexual context. We didn't then bang against a wall or anything.
Hannah Witton
Have you read that monologue in The Vagina Monologues. There's like one of the pieces in it.
Fran Bushe
I think I think I performed that one when I was at university. Is it the one with the seashell?
Hannah Witton
Something about Bill, I think, or is the name of the guy. It's just about, I think this woman like has a one night stand, or has like a hook up. But then when they get back, like he's just like, can I just stare at your bits.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, does he want to shave her, or is that?
Hannah Witton
No, that's I think that's one of the other ones. But like, um, yeah, and she talks about this guy just staring at her vulva. And how, I think she talks about like, how it really turned her on, even though like, they weren't touching or anything. He was just staring at it.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, I think it is really empowering. Really empowering. I mean, I haven't done it since. And, like, again, all these things, like I wish I could say that on the other side of all these experiences, that I was a hugely sexually empowered, always say what I want, what I'm feeling person. But it's really hard to live up to those standards. It's really hard not - in like, situation by situation context, not to sometimes be thinking of the other person's feelings, of your own feelings, of what's going on, what you want in that moment. And so even now, I'm still a bit I, oh, go down on me, but I hope it's okay, I'm really sorry if it's not -
Hannah Witton
Such a process. Yeah. It's like not like, even though that you're doing a show about it, it's not a case of like, oh, I'm doing a show about it which means obviously, like, I'm on the other side now. And so everything is like dandy.
Fran Bushe
Everyone come and gaze. A communal gazing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that should be as people are filing in, taking their seats, you're just like sat on the stage.
Fran Bushe
It's my flyering technique. And I say, come, come to my show, gaze at my vagina. Yeah -
Hannah Witton
It would be for art, it's fine.
Fran Bushe
Well, I felt like art. My vagina felt like art.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, you should get someone to paint a portrait of your vulva.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, well you can get like a vulva casting thing, can't you?
Hannah Witton
Like a clay mould thing. Yeah, maybe not clay. But yeah, some kind of casting.
Fran Bushe
I think yeah, if I - something for the bathroom, maybe like, thinking interior decorating?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. A friend of mine has got like a whole like gallery wall of vulva art.
Fran Bushe
Wow. That's amazing.
Hannah Witton
It's pretty spectacular. People just like come in and be like, ah, cool. She also like rents out her spare bedroom on Airbnb. Just like, this is brilliant, everyone's just coming in and seeing the vulva art.
Fran Bushe
Good. People should see more vulva art.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much, Fran, for talking to me.
Fran Bushe
You're very welcome.
Hannah Witton
And sharing your story. And I think this kind of thing is super valuable for people to hear. Because I reckon it's happening to a lot of us. I think it's just there's not being talked about that much. Like there's no -
Fran Bushe
There's no normal way to have sex, like knowing that really important and knowing that -
Hannah Witton
The word normal needs to be banned from discussions of sex.
Fran Bushe
Yeah. And that I think more does need to be done to support people that are having sexual difficulties and challenges, but also knowing that they're not on their own. Like not everyone is having the kind of sex that they say they are, not everyone is having porn sex. No one is really.
Hannah Witton
I was gonna say about like, with sex positivity, as well. That kind of movement of like, yeah, it's all good, like that can actually have an unintended consequence of again, making people feel inadequate. They're like, they see the sex positive movement and like, well, I can't get there.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, and then you end up feeling broken in comparison to that. But yeah, I'm like, I'm also in like, investing time in myself, sexually. Like I am, I am experimenting with my nipples.
Hannah Witton
Training them up.
Fran Bushe
Yeah, it's masturbation month at the minute.
Hannah Witton
It is, as we're recording this is, it's May. Yeah, Masturbation May
Fran Bushe
Yeah, and next week is national clitoris appreciation week, apparently. So it will be in the past now, but put it in your diaries for next year. Because I think that Yeah, the more you know about these things, the better, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Fran Bushe
The minute you learn, I'm learning all about my labia at the minute, and what they can do, and not just doing the same old things that worked or didn't work when I was 16. Trying different things. Not getting stuck in a rut.
Hannah Witton
That's a great place to end it. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening.
Fran Bushe
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast