Pregnancy as a Trans Dad and Gender Neutral Parenting with Freddy McConnell
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Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy with me, your host, Hannah Witton. I am super excited to tell you about my guest this week: the incredible Freddy McConnell. Freddy is a writer and journalist and is also a trans man who became a stolen dad via donor conception giving birth in 2018 and more recently again this year in 2022. Freddy shared his first experience of pregnancy as a transgender man in the BIFA nominated documentary, Seahorse. Freddy is also the host of the podcast Pride and Joy, which he started because he wanted to tell more stories of queer parenthood. He's also an advocate for LGBTQ+ family equality, and his fight to be recognised as children's father or parent on their birth certificates is waiting to be heard by the European Court of Human Rights.
I really wanted to have Freddy on the show to talk all about becoming a seahorse dad, and his choice to become a solo parent. This really was such an interesting conversation. Freddy told me all about what the experience of being pregnant and giving birth was like for him as a trans man in the UK. He spoke about the complexities of coming off testosterone to get pregnant, and the challenge of body dysphoria through the whole process. Freddy also spoke about the fact that when he was first medically transitioning, he had been told he would no longer be able to conceive, and how we need actually correct education and professional advice to be given to trans people about fertility. Freddy also talked about his experience of healthcare professionals in general throughout his pregnancies, and whilst he experienced transphobia and misgendering during his first pregnancy, he also experienced joyful, inclusive, and affirming treatment by his local clinic during his second one. He talked about how pregnancy spaces can become more LGBTQ+ inclusive, and why maternity wards should come up with a different name. We chatted about Freddy's choice to become a solo parent and how he loves it because he doesn't have to take another adult's perspective into consideration when choosing how to parent or where to live. We also talked about gender neutral parenting, and Freddy said that whilst he won't be able to protect his children from gendered stereotypes, he wants them to be able to form their own relationship with their own gender as much as possible and that starts at home.
I really loved our chat and hearing all about Freddy's amazing journey to become a dad, as well as all his insightful advice on how prenatal spaces can become more trans inclusive. Please note, we do talk about transphobia in this episode, so please bear that in mind before listening and take care of yourself first.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It's really appreciated. I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. So here is Freddy McConnell.
Freddy, welcome to Doing It. Thank you so much for joining me. And we have also a tiny guest as well. So if you do hear any baby noises, there's a tiny, tiny baby.
Freddy McConnell
Hopefully it's cute and worth it.
Hannah Witton
So yeah, I really wanted to get you on the podcast because, like, I'm experiencing my first pregnancy right now. And it's always been very important to me to like include non-binary and trans men in those conversations as well. And you are a trans man who has had two kids, birthed two children. And yeah, like what - I guess I wanted to start with, like, what was your experience of pregnancy or experiences? Because they can be different?
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, mine were really different. Definitely. I, you know - well, I can't really explain without going a bit further back in time, always, because, you know, like, like the vast majority of trans men then and possibly even now, I was told by NHS doctors that I'd be made infertile by medically transitioning. And obviously, that is the case if you have a hysterectomy, but I was given the message that it would also be because of testosterone therapy. You sign a consent form.
Hannah Witton
Because it makes your period stop.
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, it does that. Well. It does that for most people, actually. It doesn't affect everyone. And also like if your levels are a bit off, then your cycle might come back or lots of people, lots of trans men or non-binary people who do conceive do so in an unplanned way, like because of their hormone levels not being right.
Hannah Witton
Oh, because they've been told they're infertile and so they're less careful.
Freddy McConnell
Or they've been told they just can't conceive while they're on T and that kind of thing. Yeah, so that's what I was told. So I made peace with that when I decided that medical transition was what I needed to do. And I thought, "Oh, I'll just adopt one in the future" in this kind of like my mid 20s way. And then, about three years later, I happened upon a YouTube video of a trans guy in America who was pregnant. And actually, funnily enough, he had conceived by accident with his cis male partner. And he'd been on testosterone for a long time, and he had a deep voice and a beard kind of like me, and I was just like, "What is this? What-?" You know, it kind of threw me for a total loop. And so -
Hannah Witton
YouTube being educational!
Freddy McConnell
Absolutely, I mean, you know, that was like early days of YouTube, when it was really felt like a community, especially for I think trans people. At that point, certainly, for me, I learned everything about - that I needed to know about transition and community from other trans people on YouTube. So you know, it was amazing. I was - but also it was very kind of scary, like, "Oh, if that's possible for me, then maybe could I do that? Should I do that?" Like, I've always wanted to be a parent from as young as I can remember, my mum'll, you know, say I used to talk about having loads of kids. And so, yeah, it was, it just threw up this whole mess of feelings and thoughts and ideas. And I kind of felt like, well, I've transitioned and my family except me but if I then said - turn around and said, "I'm gonna try and have a baby," would they say like, "Oh, well, no, that's one step too far," or, you know, "This is the final straw", you know, like, all these kinds of shame, ideas and thoughts. And also, I still thought that that testosterone would eventually make me infertile at that point, because there's no like research around it, you know? So I thought, well, if I was gonna do it, I'd have to do it quite soon. So I did come to the point, eventually, about a year or two years later of thinking, yeah, I could do that. And yeah, I do want to do that. And like, you know, fuck everyone else. This is my life. And I need to do what's going to make me happy. And this feels like the easiest, simplest, safest way to start a family for me. So that's what I'm going to do. And I'm going to use donor sperm. Because I didn't have a partner at that point.
It brought up all these questions of like, should I do that? Could I do that? If I did that would my family finally, reject me after feeling that they probably reject me once I'd come out as trans and you know. So it was complicated. It was amazing. But it was also really complicated. And so I spent another at least a year if not more, really wrestling with the idea of "can I do that," and also, I didn't know at that point whether I would eventually still become infertile because of testosterone. It's only now that I know that actually testosterone seems to not affect trans male fertility at all, apart from when you're on it. When you're on it, it might suppress your cycle, it will suppress your cycle if you're at the correct dose. But you know, I now know of multiple guys who were sort of 10, 15 years on T coming off and having totally uncomplicated pregnancy. So yeah, it just doesn't seem like it affects it. The other thing is actually, your cycle stops but you still ovulate, which I think is another reason why people can fall pregnant by mistake, and why there needs to be better information out there about contraception for trans men and non binary people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because the absence of like a period doesn't necessarily mean that you're not ovulating. Yeah.
Freddy McConnell
So yes, eventually I did feel that I could do this, and I should do this. And like, I kind of had this attitude of like, you know, "Fuck everyone else, because this is my life. And I know this is unusual. But this actually feels like literally just the simplest and safest way for me to start my family. Like, I don't have to interact with other people, I can be in control of this process and do it kind of privately." And I wanted to share the experience because I'm a journalist. And obviously, we made a documentary about it called Seahorse directed by Jeanie Finlay in the and - but while we were making the film, and while I was pregnant, I was very secretive about it. So that was like one of the conditions of being filmed was that no one would know what we were filming and why we were filming because I carried really small. So like, even in my hometown, only my close friends and family knew that I was pregnant. So my first pregnancy, even though I'd said to myself, like, I'm going to do this, and I had the support of my mum and my stepdad and my brother, besides that, I was incredibly nervous and scared and isolated. And I kind of isolated myself and I didn't really know anyone else going through it apart. And I eventually made contact with a guy in Loughborough who was pregnant at same time as me through like a secret Facebook group.
But yeah, so like, that was my first pregnancy and then this pregnancy that's just happened was like, the opposite. You know, so like, I was really keen to be like, proud and out there and showing other young trans men especially that this is an option for them and that's really like something that I've learned from, for instance, my friend in Loughborough, who is a very - who's very out there and proud about being a seahorse dad and also there's just lots more people visibly doing it. So like, you know, there's Kayden in America and there's a Triston in America, and there's Danny and all these people now that I feel like I'm part of a little circle with so it really couldn't be more different. And I just feel genuinely proud of how I became a dad now, whereas before, I think I felt quite sort of apologetic and had a lot of internalised shame about it still.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm really glad that you've managed to kind of like, experience that, like community and like, proud side of pregnancy as well. That's really great. What was it like coming off testosterone? Like in terms of just like, how you fell in your transness, and your maleness and in your body?
Freddy McConnell
I mean, something I've noticed about myself, over the years, is that I think I'm quite lucky in a way that my identity has always felt really fixed, even when I was a kid all the way through puberty, which is really hard. And then like, coming to discover the idea of transness, and then realising that that was me. And all through that, like, I felt like the same person, which I think is something that's often missed when we talk about transition and trans people as like the idea of sort of becoming someone else. And so then even when I came off testosterone after, I think it was four years that I'd been on T when I came off to try to conceive, you know, I didn't, again, I still didn't feel different. It was hard. And I was hyper aware of changes, very subtle changes that happened to my body. I mean, testosterone, the changes are - some of them are permanent, and kind of "irreversible", quote, unquote, although I feel like that was probably unhelpful when it comes to like individual bodies, and that word is just kind of used mostly by anti-trans people to scare other people. You know, so even things like, you know, my voice dropped when I first transitioned. But then what happened when I stopped testosterone was that it became less resonant in my chest. So it moved back up into my throat, which I think, you know, is kind of where I would speak from pre-T. So really subtle things like that that I became quite fixated on. And you're, you have fat redistribution. So like, my hips got a bit wider again. And you know, that's all really, really shit and, affirms to me that, you know, I do - T is right for me. And that's how I feel like myself.
And during my first pregnancy, that was another fear was that maybe, "What have I done? Like, maybe I'll never go back to feeling comfortable again." And dysphoria was even worse in a way because I felt I knew what was possible. I knew that I could feel so good in my body and in myself and so it kind of heightened the distress of dysphoria. Whereas before transition, I'd just gotten so used to it that it was like a more like a dull background ache. So yeah, all sorts of things. But then like, at the same time, everyone around me was like, "You literally do not look or sound any different. What are you fussing about?" Which was not very helpful but, you know, I appreciated the sentiment.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I guess like, because you live in your body, and you're so in your body, you notice, like, even like the most small changes, as well. What was some things that really helped, like, affirm your gender whilst pregnant? And in birth as well, I guess.
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, it's funny, I mean, my experiences of birth were - both times and first time, I had kind of, quote, "perfect" waterbirth. Perfect in the sense that it's exactly what I wanted. Not that it's, you know, something that people should aim for necessarily. But then my second experience was a emergency C section, which was like, much more stressful, but ultimately really good as well. And really lovely. And kind of both of them felt like such tense experiences, so kind of overwhelming, that I just feel like gender didn't really come into it at all at that point. I was worried, you know, especially with the second birth, I was worried about being surrounded by medical professionals who didn't know me, getting nervous about being misgendered, which did happen, unfortunately, and not being understood or seen in that moment by those people. But like, in myself, and in my mind that just so focused on like, let's do this, you know, especially in my first birth, which you see in the film, I really did just like go to another galaxy somewhere. You know, I was like, yeah.
Hannah Witton
I was literally watching that this morning, actually. And I was like, "Damn, the noises." And I actually have been very much avoiding a lot of birth content. But I did really enjoy watching your birth and got a bit emosh.
Freddy McConnell
Aw, that's sweet. It was captured so beautifully. I'm so so glad to have that. But yeah, so like pregnant - so birth, I would say - I don't know, I just felt affirmed in myself by, you know, having a birth partner in my mum, who was so great, and having the right music and - but not so much gender stuff just because like, yeah. Just weirdly, I suppose, because it's birth so a lot of people will perceive that as like the most female thing that can happen, but obviously, that's not my experience. So um - but during pregnancy, I mean, I don't know, I just did a lot of like escapism. I kind of got into reading sci-fi. I binged a lot of sort of dramas. And yeah, there was nothing really that could combat really like the sense of dysphoria of not being on testosterone. So I just tried to - I just kind of gritted my teeth to get through it. I mean, one wonderful thing was that after the birth of my second child, I was lying on the operating table, you know, being stitched up, and a midwife said, "Well done, dad." And then like a doctor, or the anaesthetist maybe said, "Oh, congratulations, dad." Like, that was amazing to be there having just had a C section, feeling extremely vulnerable, and just for these people, I don't even know to just have to be so chill being like, "Oh, well done, dad." Like it just felt so natural. And amazing. Yeah, that was really cool.
Hannah Witton
I found the bit in your documentary really interesting, where you're going through like the records that the hospital gives you that you keep with you throughout pregnancy, and you're just like crossing out every time it says mum or maternity or like uses she/her pronouns. And that's something that I've really noticed in the hospital that I'm at is that it's just like mum, and like female stuff, woman, like pregnant women, like language being used everywhere. And like, how was that for you in terms of like engaging with the healthcare system that we have? And did you have any kind of like, choice about where you had your care? And like where you wanted to give birth? And are there places that are more like LGBTQ+ aware?
Freddy McConnell
Well, there's a trust -the trust that covers like Brighton and Sussex, came out with an amazing sort of pack of guidelines for gender inclusive midwifery, which is what they call it, which is all about looking after trans people who are pregnant and birthing. And so I suppose that would be a great place to live. If you're a pregnant trans person. And I think that my local hospital is probably unusually good on that front, like, like, because they've looked after me. So I know that they also looked after another kind of local trans guy just before me. So they've had this experience, I think, that has directly led them to, you know, maybe just making sure that there's an awareness that you might encounter a trans man in the kind of maternity gay care area one day, so like, don't treat them like they shouldn't be there, or like they're a threat or a risk, that kind of thing. Because that did happen to me in my first pregnancy, which was really unfortunate, but my second pregnancy was like a lot better. And I felt - I never felt like I was confusing anyone. Which I can only put - I just have to assume that they were like, "Let's get this right this time." And they really did, which was amazing.
Hannah Witton
Like, "The guy who made the documentary. We have to be good. What if he's filming again?"
Freddy McConnell
I mean, obviously, we would have -
Freddy McConnell
I didn't do any filming this time, thank god. Because my god that was stressful. No, you know, no, it was amazing. And I think they must have really wanted to do better because I, you know, I made a complaint about the experience I'd had the first time about being kind of confronted in a very busy waiting room by a very aggressive and unwelcoming member of staff. It was just like the worst. But but then at the same time, obviously, it shouldn't take someone like me - it shouldn't take any individual having to go through a bad experience to make the experience better in future and you know, like LGBTQ parenting awareness should be part of every trust's basic stuff, and it's not just trans, but it's about you know, what should you do when you have a gay cis male couple coming in with their surrogate or, you know, what should you do when you have two mums present at birth or any kind of single parent, you know, the whole thing is set up so heavily for the nuclear family and cis het couples, no offence. You know.
Freddy McConnell
"Best behaviour, everybody."
Hannah Witton
None taken!
Freddy McConnell
I just think my experience was great, but I know that that really is not anything to go on in terms of like the national picture unfortunately, I wish I could say something more reassuring. But yeah, and the forms, the forms suck. And they're like, why do they have to be in a pink folder? It's just and like, why do we call it maternity in this country? Like they don't call it maternity elsewhere in English speaking places. It's like prenatal care or perinatal care, or it can be just called pregnancy care. I think it's really - it's kind of weirdly old school to call it maternity. Especially again, when you think about like, surrogacy and other ways in which people become parents. Like, let's call it what it is, let's use specific language like pregnancy rather than this kind of euphemism of maternity. But yeah, when you go to fertility treatment, sorry, I will stop in a minute. But yeah, when you go to get fertility treatment at a clinic, the HFEA, which is the authority that regulates fertility treatment, they give you the option - they've created gender neutral forms. So whichever bit of the treatment you're getting, and whoever you are, like, whatever your body is doing in that process, you can use the gender neutral forms. So that's really what I'd like to see. And I have to believe it wouldn't be that hard. You wouldn't need loads of them. Because there's not many, you know, trans people having babies at the moment. There's probably going to be more moving forward hopefully, but yeah, like, so I don't think it's a case of taking out all gendered language from forms. But yeah, I think just making an alternative available.
Because yeah, like when I - I mean I received a letter from my GP to come get whooping cough vaccination, which is like what something that all pregnant people are advised to get. And the letter just was obviously copy pasted and it talked about mothers and women, and I just didn't feel like it was talking to me. It was really odd. It was like I sort of dissociated from that moment, and then I very nearly didn't get the vaccination, because I didn't want to engage with it. It made me feel bad. And that's a risk. That's so like, you know, this is about keeping parents and babies safe. And if you want to do that, then, you know, just make sure that you're including everyone. It's not just about feelings or taking offence, it's about actually delivering good health care, I think ultimately.
Hannah Witton
yeah. Is is that gender neutral form, is that like, just for private fertility clinics, or is that NHS?
Freddy McConnell
It's HFEA, so any - whatever clinic you're at in the UK, you - it's being - what would it be? It's being overseen or regulated by the HFEA, which is the Human Fertility Embryology Authority or something? Something complicated like that. It's the same forms wherever you go. And yeah, they're green.
Hannah Witton
So you can request a gender neutral form, if that's what you...
Freddy McConnell
So that's what I signed when I was having fertility treatment. Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
So you mentioned like, single solo parents in the long list of like, all sorts of different relationship structures that can exist for people having kids. You're a solo parent. And that's something that you talk a lot about. What was kind of, like, your reasoning behind wanting to solo parent and kind of people's reactions to that? And how's it been?
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, I mean, so it's complicated as, as these things tend to be and, you know, as a as a queer person. I think queer parenting, regardless of who you are and how you identify, one of the common themes is that you do a lot of planning and thinking and talking before you embark on your actual, like, journey to becoming a parent. Like because we have to, right, because, we can't just, you know, have a quickie or whatever. I feel so awkward saying that. But you know, it just takes planning. So, and you have to be kind of deliberate and conscious about it. So I had thought a lot about how am I going to do this? And oh, I mean, partly I was motivated back in 2016, when I was trying to conceive for the first time by the idea that I was going to eventually become infertile, again, because I didn't have any good accurate medical advice on it. Like I said, now I know that's not true. And but luckily, I was in a place in my life where I had a good job, I was about to buy a house in my hometown, which the only reason I could afford to do that. And so I was ready, luckily, but yeah, the timing was just - I feel like kind of wasn't really my choice necessarily.
I thought about coparenting with a friend of mine, who is also trans, for a while and we kind of were working towards that. Actually as you see, in Seahorse again, in the film, we're together for a while and it's didn't work out. Which is fine. Like we're still very close and, yeah, so, so I just ended up, I sort of ended up being a solo parent, in a way, but then at the same time, I knew in the back of my mind and deep down that it probably would suit me. Because I am a pretty self sufficient person. And, you know, in a way it appealed because I thought, "Well, you know, then I won't have to compromise on like my parenting style." And and you know, that's something that often people feel very strongly about, me included. So I was trying to look on the bright side, and I knew that I was going to move from London back to my hometown, and I would have my parents and my siblings, and yeah, and then - so yeah, I wasn't scared by the idea. I wasn't freaked out by it. I felt like this is something I could do. And actually, the circumstances mean that this is something I am going to do. So like, let's do it. And then the reality, amazingly, is that I do love it. And it really does suit me. And I cannot imagine having to share these decisions with another person. But then again, you know, I suppose, like, if you're in love with someone, it becomes less of a abstract idea.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but it doesn't make it any easier necessarily.
Freddy McConnell
But no, I mean, another thing that happened just after I gave birth was I discovered this group of local people who'd had babies at exactly the same time as me, including my sister. And they're all mums, and they're all straight. But I forgive them. And they're amazing. And they've since -
Hannah Witton
That tut said it all! "They're all straight."
Freddy McConnell
They're all amazing. And like, we've become incredibly close. And our kids are all exactly the same age. And it's just amazing. So I do have that like tea shade village to help me raise my kids. But yeah, I listen to them talk about their partners, and their partners are cis straight men. So in a way, like, you know, I have to take that into account when I'm complain. You know, because cis straight men aren't necessarily the easiest people to live with. And like, thank god for being gay and all that. But yeah, I do think like, that does not sound easier. Like yes, okay, it would be handy to have someone to hand the baby to when I want to cook dinner. But you know, having another adult - to me, that seems like the harder option at this point.
Hannah Witton
Looking after another adult. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I joined this like app that's for like parents and like pregnant people, although it's very much targeted at like cis women and mums. And I was reading some of the threads on there. And it was just like, there was a whole thread of people just complaining about their, like, cis male partners. And there was just like, one woman who's like, "Yeah, my partner's not compassionate either. But I've learned that I don't need compassion." And I was like, woah.
Freddy McConnell
Wow, that's bleak.
Hannah Witton
It was so heartbreaking reading these. I was just like, "Oh, come on, we really need to, like, demand better from cis straight men."
Freddy McConnell
For sure. Because at the same time, this is all, like fun to talk about. But actually, I kind of on a more serious note, I do not believe that there's anything inherent about like cis straight men that makes them bad at parenting or less good at parenting or less intuitive about parenting. Likewise, I don't believe there's anything inherent about cis women that makes them inherently, you know, maternal, or - I think both ideas are really problematic and really sexist and if we thought about it for a second longer than we usually do, we'd realise that it's part of like, you know, patriarchal structure that we're trying to break down in other areas, but we seem to still just let it be when it comes to parenting. Like, if you want to be an engaged, intuitive parent, you just need to spend time with your kids. Like, that's literally it. Like I know straight couples where the dad is the primary carer, and he knows what's going on and he's in tune with his kid because he's there, like, that's all it takes. And then, you know, whether you enjoy it, and whether it comes - whether it feels like it comes naturally, that's kind of a different thing. And that's very personal. But again, that's not decided whether on the basis of whether you're a man or a woman, like it's just - yeah, so and I think it's sad that like a lot of straight cis guys sort of don't realise what they're missing out on. And, because of like toxic masculinity, don't feel that they can express a desire to be a nurturing parent and to be an involved parent, and they have to kind of be like, "Oh, yeah, I'm rubbish" or like or isn't it all kind of, you know, daddy daycare lol kind of...no. Like, it's so sad.
Hannah Witton
That that side of things is definitely interesting because my partner has said to me, like some of the conversations that he's been privy to have from other like cis men who had dads. He's like, genuinely been quite shocked at how like, casual they are at complaining about having kids sometimes. And he's like, "I don't think that they don't love their kids and enjoy being dads. I think it's just like what happens when a group of men are in a room together."
Freddy McConnell
Like it's problematic in the same ways that like a group of men talking about sex can be problematic. I think, again, it's like this side of toxic masculinity that we're not yet having a conversation about as a society, whereas we are when it comes to sex and work, and even things like sport, you know, all sorts of things. But for some reason parenting? Yeah, we're still just kind of quite rigid in our binary ways of thinking about it.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to chat with you about like, gender neutral parenting and using gender neutral pronouns, because that's something that you talked about. I saw on your Instagram and stuff. And this is something that I've been thinking about a lot as well. And so yeah, I wanted to hear what, what your approach is to that and like, how you how you came - to how you came that.
Freddy McConnell
I mean, I don't want to start by saying I don't have a very well thought out - you know, I haven't like, come to a decision really, or even a - I feel like it's changing all the time. And I'm constantly seeking out new and better information about this. I mean, I didn't even think about it really, until I was already a dad. And what made me, you know - obviously I'd heard about the babies or kids who were being raised gender neutral, right, like, I think there was a particularly famous case in Canada, where parents were fighting for the right to not put an assigned sex on their kids passport, maybe. And I felt quite judgmental to be completely honest. I felt like, "What is that about? You know, your kids not going to - probably isn't going to be non binary, or trans. So like, why are you kind of projecting that onto them?" It just felt - I didn't get it and I also misunderstood it, clearly, from what I just said, you know, I thought that's what it was about. But then I became a dad and my, my boy, as far as I'm aware, like, based on his assigned sex, was just being gendered left, right and centre. And as a parent, I was constantly seeing gendering happening in extreme and unnecessary and often quite creepy ways. And I just hadn't realised.
Hannah Witton
Do you mean in terms of how people treated him or like, what kind of language they would use to describe him and stuff?
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, all of that. Clothes, toys. You know, I had done a bit of research in my old job sort of reporting around this for a kind of explainer video. So I did know that, you know, in the 70s, and 80s, there's these like famous Lego adverts where the kids are all playing with like primary colour bricks and wearing primary colour clothes, and it's a girl and a boy, and there's no gendering whatsoever.
Hannah Witton
I feel like I've seen images of those adverts as well, yeah.
Freddy McConnell
They're always used when we're sort of talking about this subject, right? Because I think people think that gendering of babies and kids is an old fashioned thing. And we're becoming more progressive and enlightened as we become more gender neutral. But actually, I think it's the other way around. Like 100 years ago, all babies wore white dresses and had long hair. And it was considered immoral to project a gender onto a child because that's like an adult thing. And it's kind of really connected to, like, sex and relationships, right, like gender roles - that's not something that babies and children need to worry about. And like, that's absolutely true. And even, you know, when I was being raised by - you know, my mum's kind of a hippie-ish. She's, like, liberal and left wing. So maybe that's something to do with it. But she just put me in gender neutral clothes, and that was just like normal. And now I feel like we're becoming more and more gender segregated. Everything is pink and blue. You cannot find stuff that is not gendered. And it's, I just hadn't - yeah, I was naive.
So I read a book - an amazing book called Parenting Beyond Pink and Blue, which I would recommend to absolutely anyone but especially parents. It's by - I think she's a psychologist. And so it's very well researched. And it's all evidence based, talking about the ways in which we gender overtly and we gender subconsciously, and, yeah, there's like, you know, if you have a baby that you perceive as a boy, you will hold him differently and I just was like, Oh no." So then I realised that gender neutral parenting is much more about protecting your child, I think or putting up a firewall in a way between them and this world that is obsessively trying to gender them and like keeping - using gender neutral pronouns is just a way to stop people subconsciously treating them differently because they think, "Well, this is a big tough boy. And that's a little, precious, delicate girl." You know, so like, I totally changed how I feel about it. And now I do publicly use gender neutral pronouns for my second kid. And I've become quite militant about it, you know, so I'll do things like - I am not under any illusions that I'm actually going to be able to protect my children from gender stereotypes permanently. And it is stereotypes, not their own sense of their gender, which is obviously for them to come to and explore. So we will like - when we cross the road, it's like, "Wait for the green person." Which felt really weird to say in the beginning.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my goodness, yeah, I absolutely still say green man.
Freddy McConnell
I think the only way yeah, the ways we can tackle it are like, it's a bit like the climate change equivalent of like switching the light off when you leave a room. Like, ultimately, it's probably not going to change anything. But if you can make all those - if you can, because you'll be amazed. Every cuddly toy, or every kind of bear that your child has will be a he and you'll realise like, "Why is that there? Why am I saying he?" You know? So yeah, I think I'm just - I just try to be really conscious of it. It's fascinating.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, cuz one of the reasons that like, we didn't want to find out what, like ,the assigned sex or genitals of our like baby, is because I was like, I know that I'm susceptible to all of this gendered stuff, too. And I didn't want to give myself like a six months head start, on thinking about my child differently. Because I was like, I'm aware that, like, I will fall into those traps.
Freddy McConnell
That's the thing, I think it's about being aware just how deep it goes. Because you're so right. Like, I think there's in a way there's really nothing we can do. We are so conditioned to think in these ways. I can - I can so relate to the whole kind of like - I think it's a desire to feel like you know this baby. If you know, their assigned sex, you feel like you know something about them. And I think by not knowing that, you're, you're resisting that. And you're saying, "Actually, I don't know anything about this baby. I don't know who they're going to be." And that's kind of like, feels weird. Maybe a bit scary. But it's really great, I think, because it, you know, it's just leaving space for them to discover who they are going to be. But I didn't find - because then the other side of it is that then it's like, "Oh, is it going to be a surprise?" people will say. And then that almost feels like you're building it up more. Unless you're gonna not tell anyone at all, obviously that's an option. But I actually did find out the assigned sex the second time around. And my thinking was, I didn't tell anyone straight away. And then I would kind of occasionally mention it, and I would try to be kind of like, really relaxed about it to send the message that wasn't a big deal to me. It shouldn't be a big deal to you either. In like a sort of gentle, friendly way. But also, I just, yeah, I didn't want it to be like, I don't know, to be a big deal. So for me finding out earlier, felt like the way to make it less of a big deal, if that makes sense. But I don't know, like I said, I'm just - I'm still figuring this stuff out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz we're gonna have to do like a big reveal with our families, because they're definitely curious. And so it's just like, I definitely still want to - because obviously, the birth is gonna be a big deal. And so then I kind of just want the like, "Oh and also they have a penis" or like, and also this. Like, just like, "But that's not important."
Freddy McConnell
That's the thing. That's all gonna happen. And even in the hospital, "Do you know what you're having?" Or that kind of - there's just nothing you can really do about that. Like, what - the biggest thing you can have an impact on is what you do at home and how you talk to your kids and the books you have available and that sort of thing. And so, you know, whether you find out or not, you know, it's just whatever you feel comfortable with, I suppose and I don't know, if I had another I don't know if I would do it differently again, you know. I just - I know someone -
Hannah Witton
Always learning.
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, a friend of mine sort of said that they found out the assigned sex of their kid because of their own sort of baggage about gender, which I can kind of really relate to that as well. So like, you know, in a way of sort of - I'm not really explaining this very well, but they were aware that like depending on what their kid's genitals were, they might feel anxious, or - and people do feel disappointment, like that's a thing, you know, like gender disappointment, and again, even though I think that's maybe such a shame, and it's sad, it's not something that people should feel personally responsible for or ashamed of, because, again, I just think it comes from the society we were raised in. So I can kind of see as well that, like, maybe finding out as early as possible will help - could help you process that? Maybe talk to a therapist about it, that kind of thing. So I think it's also something for the parent. Yeah, it's just so personal.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What was kind of like the social media reaction to being like, "I'm not going to tell you publicly what my baby's assigned sex is. I'm not going to give you - I am going to give you their pronouns, it's we're using they them publicly." What was the kind of response that because I have been tempted to completely like, troll my following online by like, when the baby's born just being like, "Here, here they are" and like, not announcing anything, and then seeing if people just freak out. But that's more of just like me wanting to troll people rather than like, necessarily, like, make a point. But yeah, what's the response been?
Freddy McConnell
As you can tell, I like to explain things. So I sort of, I think it probably helped that I really tried to explain my thinking. Partly probably because that's kind of my nature, but also because I wanted to explain that I'd been on this journey, where, like, I hadn't always felt this way about using gender neutral pronouns. And then I, now I feel differently, and it's okay, please change your mind. And, you know, because like, as a parent, you're expected to be perfect a hundred percent of the time, all these kinds of things. So I think explaining it - I mean, I don't know, I love being on Instagram, most of the time, it's so - I find it so positive. And my followers are so lovely. So I think the only downside - and also it helped that I could - the privacy thing is a big deal for me. You know, I don't share my four year old's face, I don't share their names. So for me, it genuinely is, you know, using gender pronouns is, on one level, simply a privacy thing. So that was also I think, something that helped people understand. The only downside was being asked, "Oh what should I do in ... situation?" And I was like, "Oh, I wasn't setting myself up as an expert on this. And I wasn't setting myself up to answer your questions. Sorry. I was just telling you what I'm gonna do and how I feel." But yeah, obviously, people sort of see you as an expert in some ways. So yeah, but then, and then I would sort of say, "Oh, well, actually, I don't know. What would you do?" Turn it back on them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you can't predict every situation. So you just kind of have to roll with the punches.
Freddy McConnell
What people want to know is "what do you say when a stranger asks you?" Like, that's the most common question. If someone asks you, you know, the sex of your child, what should you say? And I was like, I do not know. I would usually just give them the answer they want because I'm tired and busy and I'm afraid of confrontation. And you never - people get really defensive about gender stuff. And they freak out when they don't know whether your child has a vulva or a penis in a way and I do not understand why but it's like they take personal offence. And I guess, I mean, I kind of do understand on one level. I think, again, it comes back to being so conditioned to invest a lot of information and value in that knowledge that when you're denied it, you feel wrong footed and you can even - almost make you feel a bit dizzy of like, "Well, I can't orientate myself in the world if I don't know whether this child"- you know, that sort of thing. So yeah, I don't have a good answer for what you should say to strangers or even loved ones really. I think it's just how you feel in the moment. You don't owe - you don't owe anyone anything on that front. You don't have to be perfect. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I definitely struggle with that. Because whilst I want to kind of almost challenge it wherever I see it, realistically, like every time like - someone - either if it's a complete stranger or like, some, like, you know, somebody that I'm just interacting in my day to day life with, who I don't really know very well asks, I just default to like you said, like, avoiding confrontation and just being like, "We don't know, it's gonna be a surprise." Like, "Haha." And then, you know, I've had people commenting of like, "Ooh, the shape of your bump, they're gonna be a boy." And I'm like, "Ha ha, okay then." Like, and you're just like politely laughing and smiling like, "I feel so uncomfortable right now."
Freddy McConnell
But then I feel like we're all will sort of animals, you know - I feel it helps to - we're just creatures of habit, ultimately. And these little interactions are moments of like, connection, like the actual substance of it matters less, especially if they're a stranger you're never going to see again. Like the most common place where I get sort of asked like, "Oh, are they a girl or a boy?" is like the supermarket checkout. So it's often a middle aged or slightly older cis woman. And even if I do just tell them and like, you know, completely throw my principles under the bus in that moment, it's a nice little exchange, you know, we're not gonna - that's just all it is. And then we move on. I mean, even once a woman was like, "I was looking for a colour, but I couldn't see one, are they a girl or boy?" I was just like, "Oh my god, like, she said the quiet bit out loud," you know? And that would be a really interesting conversation to have with that person. But instead, it just becomes like a funny little anecdote. Yeah. I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally get that. Right, we have some questions from people on Instagram. Somebody asked, What language do you prefer to be used around feeding and caring? And this person says that they're an infant feeding researcher.
Freddy McConnell
Well, I think as with everything, you have to ask the individual that's in front of you. And everyone will probably have a slightly different answer. I'm very comfortable with like, anatomically correct language. So - which for me feels like if I was going to feed my baby, if I was capable of doing that, then I would be chestfeeding because I don't have breasts. But some people who have had top surgery, or even some cis men, like induce lactation. You know, everyone with nipples that are connected, or hasn't had sort of a mastectomy, could theoretically just feed so like, I think the term chestfeed is useful for some people. I also think breastfeeding is fine if that's what you're doing and that's what your body is capable of and that's the terminology that feels right for you. Like my - so I used an SNS a couple of times when my this - kiddo number two was born, which is basically the supplementary nursing system, which is like a tiny feeding tube that you can tape near your nipple and it's connected to a bottle that has milk in. So like -
Hannah Witton
What's the name of that? Because me and my partner have been joking about getting him like a fake tit. But I'm like - it is possible!
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you don't even need a fake tit! You just needs an SNS. You can make them at home, you can DIY it or you can buy one from Medela or Medela whatever it's called, the kind of big brand. They're really fiddly and a bit stressful. So you know, because my little one was quite small I very quickly switched to just using a bottle, because they needed to grow. So but yeah, so using the SNS for the first feed, and they were suckling at my chest. And it was amazing. And I'm really glad that we had that experience. So yeah, I would just, again, just kind of use language that's easily understood, as well as being kind of accurate and appropriate for the individual in front of you, and you can't really go wrong.
Hannah Witton
Somebody asked: so student midwife here, what is the biggest thing you want - and they've said "maternity" providers to know, but we've had that conversation. And they said just wants to tell him I love him and he's my idol I want to be a preggy trans dad too!
Freddy McConnell
Amazing. Is - are we assuming that that person is trans?
Hannah Witton
I'm assuming that this person is a trans man. Yeah.
Freddy McConnell
Great to hear from you!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and they're also a student midwife, so.
Freddy McConnell
That's great, think we need so much more. -I've had relatively positive experiences on the NHS with being pregnant and giving birth, but I have never encountered another trans person as far as I'm aware. And that makes me a bit sad. Because that would just be like so amazing to - you know, it's amazing being looked after by kind, caring midwives of any kind. And I have had that experience and so grateful for that. But to be looked after by a trans midwife would just be like next level. Awesome. So yeah, I'm so pleased to hear that that's the training that you're doing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, my producer's just said that was a separate comment. They're not the same person, unfortunately. But more more trans people like in healthcare at least.
Freddy McConnell
Yeah for sure, and I know that there are trans midwives out there. For instance, the people that wrote the Brighton and East Sussex gender inclusive midwifery guidance. I mean, in terms of what should people know. Firstly, like just more awareness of the fact that maternity is a gendered term. So like, yeah,
Hannah Witton
And midwife!
Freddy McConnell
Midwife is really, really tricky. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
What is - yeah, what are male midwives called? I don't know. I've also not encountered one yet in my care.
Freddy McConnell
So "wife" refers to the pregnant person, not to the - not to the midwife. It's like the person between - oh, I can't remember what the definition is now. I remember looking at once. Yeah. So it's weird.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, yeah, I didn't know that.
Freddy McConnell
And it's also like obviously "wife", that's kind of problematic. So. But I feel like - it's - people do assume that the wife, midwife, refers to the midwife. So in a way, it's not something I'm - it's not my priority, like changing that word because it doesn't - Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Got other stuff going on.
Freddy McConnell
And I actually have not come across or heard of a good alternative. Like I didn't decide that like perinatal and pregnancy are good alternatives to maternity. Like, often, I know I hear other people suggesting these things and I am constantly learning. But yeah, I mean, if someone has a good alternative to midwife, great, but yes, maternity feels like a more obvious one. And a more unnecessary one. Because like I said, you know, that that word is not used in the rest of the English speaking world. I just, I just - just be aware that you might come across a pregnant trans man or non binary person at some point in your practice, and remind yourself of that on a regular basis. And, you know, and then if you could go one step further and find out a bit about, like, testosterone and conceiving as a trans person, and you know, you can always just take little steps. You know it's, you don't have to kind of do everything because obviously like medical professionals are very busy, but literally just even just being aware that like, one of us might rock up one day, and like, please be nice to us. And then just know that all that really entails is like doing your job. It doesn't - there's nothing extra nothing magical, special or secret about looking after someone like me. It's literally just like, caring for someone, caring for the individual with compassion, and without judgement. That's what you do anyway day to day, so it's not hard.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Speaking of gender neutral terms, I was curious if you've come across any good ones for aunt or uncle? Because I've struggled. Like nibling is a great one for niece or nephew. Like I love that term. But trying to figure out like, an aunt/uncle gender neutral equivalent. I'm just like, I don't know. Maybe I need - I need to find a non binary person whose sibling does have children and be like, "What do you call yourself?"
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, because I feel like I have heard alternatives but I just, I'm blanking. And I, I always like an opportunity to say like, just because I'm a trans man doesn't mean I know anything about being non binary. And like, I really don't, you know, like - I'm still I, you know, I'm constantly learning about that side of things. And I wouldn't want to - I wouldn't want to, like, set myself up as a kind of expert on on that. But yeah, so that's a word we need. And yeah, like I said, I think I have heard words that people use.
Hannah Witton
Well, dear listeners, please let us know if you know of a good gender neutral aunt/uncle term. Yeah, well, Freddie, thank you so much. It's been an absolute joy to chat with you.
Freddy McConnell
Likewise.
Hannah Witton
And little one - little one like stayed pretty chill.
Freddy McConnell
They are just kind of chill. I'm definitely having a good second baby sort of magic second baby experience. But you never know, maybe you will with your first as well. Fingers crossed.
Hannah Witton
Who knows? It's honestly all a complete unknown. Where can people find you online and kind of like engage with what you do?
Freddy McConnell
Sure. @freddy.mcconnell on Instagram. Freddy with a y. That's probably the best place, although I'm actually hoping to take some leave from that and work in general. So having said that, I might not be on there very much in the immediate future. I also have a kid's book coming out in July called Little Seahorse and the Big Question, which is about a kind of single parent family and talking about what makes a family and what families need. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that. And oh, and I guess actually, one thing I didn't ask was like, what - why Seahorse dad? Let's give - contextualise what that means.
Freddy McConnell
It's just so part of my life now I forget that like people don't know that like the male seahorse is the one that is pregnant and gives birth. And sometimes you'll read that it's like, "Oh, the male seahorse has a pouch." And it's actually like kind of annoys me because no, it's not a pouch. Like the male seahorse is pregnant as fuck. Like it's inside their body. They gestate the young and then they give birth in the most extraordinary way if ever you find a video of it, it's really - it's quite something.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, I've not seen that.
Freddy McConnell
Yeah, so like, that's why we call ourselves seahorse dads and obviously, it's not like 100% analogous, but it's still really lovely. And I'm still not sick of like seahorse merch and items. Which is amazing really. But they're such beautiful things so yeah.
Hannah Witton
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much and thank you all for listening. Bye.