Sexualisation of Women with Big Boobs, Grooming and Pleasure After FGM in Nigeria with Lolo Cynthia | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I'm joined by the brilliant Lolo Cynthia, a gender and sexuality activist and educator from Nigeria. Lolo started her own social enterprise and YouTube channel, Lolo Talks, to increase comprehensive sexuality education across Nigeria. She also created a sexuality toolkit, My Body Is Mine, which she teaches in schools and uses her various platforms to speak about the importance of sex education. Lolo's interested in sexual and reproductive health and rights was deepened when she moved to South Africa and saw how issues around sexuality, including access to legal and safe abortion, were treated differently than in her home country. Lolo is an incredibly important voice for sex education in West Africa so I really wanted to get her on the show to talk about her experiences of being a sex educator in Nigeria and learn more about the topics at the forefront of her work.
Hannah Witton
Our conversation was so eye opening and fascinating. We talked about Lolo's experiences of sexualization and grooming as a curvy, young, woman with big breasts, the harmful stigma and myths in Nigeria about girls as bodies and sexuality, and how that makes them more at risk to predatory behaviour. Lolo shared how she is working to empower young people and girls especially to reconnect with their bodies, trust their intuition, and let this guide how they engage with sex. We also had a really interesting chat about how interconnected alcohol and dating are, and why Lolo feels bringing alcohol into dating prevents you from understanding how connected you actually feel to someone. Lolo also shared some really interesting anecdotes about the different kinds of questions girls and boys would ask in her sex education classes, and why she's not allowed to include LGBTQ plus themes in sex education, but how she finds loopholes to teach students about understanding and accepting themselves. Lolo also shared some incredibly important insights into how to talk about sexual pleasure that is more inclusive of people with vaginas who have been circumcised, and how those in the sex positive world can be better allies to people who have experienced FGM.
Hannah Witton
Talking to Lolo, I found it so interesting that there are a lot of parallels between the sex education work she does in Nigeria and sex education work I do in the West, but there are also many big differences, and how Lolo is working to positively impact her community.
Hannah Witton
Please note we do talk about grooming, sexual assault, and female genital mutilation in this episode, so please bear that in mind before listening and as always take care of yourself first.
Hannah Witton
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really appreciated. And without further ado, here is my chat with Lolo.
Hannah Witton
Lolo, welcome to Doing It. I'm so excited to have you here and chat all about you and your work. How are you doing?
Lolo Cynthia
Thank you so much Hannah for having me. I'm doing really well. Thank you so much.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so do you want to just like, tell us a little bit about like, how you got to, like, be who you are now as a sex educator. Like what has been your journey with sex, and relationships, and your body? And like, yeah, how did how did you come to be someone who's like talking so openly about about sex?
Lolo Cynthia
Ha, okay. You know, it's interesting because it wasn't something that I planned. I didn't go to talk about sex education, but I just found myself there based on my experiences. I grew up in Nigeria before I moved to South Africa, and in Nigeria, the issue around sex is shrouded with so much secrecy. You don't talk about it. But it's funny because people in the open don't want to talk about it. But when you go into closed doors, a lot of people are having this conversation. Many of the things they are talking about are actually false. So we live with a lot of misinformation, and that led to a lot of abuse. It's really in my case, so again, a quick example that I really like to use is how I grew up as a voluptuous women, I've always been big, I've always been bigger than my peers per se. And in my country, there is this idea that a lady, a young girl, who is maybe 12 or 13 that has maybe full breasts, or bigger thighs, is already sexually promiscuous. Growing up with that mentality, I ended up in a lot of unhealthy relationships because I never wanted to take on the victim role like oh, okay, this guy likes me and I feel so sad. No, I wanted to own that. So okay, yeah, I'm being sexually promiscuous, and now what? So I ended up with -
Hannah Witton
And you're being treated like that as well.
Lolo Cynthia
Exactly. So I ended up in a lot of unhealthy relationship with a lot of older men. So there was a lot of grooming that I accepted as the natural sexual template between man and women. And so from young teens to when I was in like 17/18 years old, that was the template I moved along in the world with. So even when I was in my late teens, I was in a lot of abusive relationship that I did not know was abusive, because it that was the only template that I knew.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And sometimes like as young women and like young girls, if an older man is interested in you, society tells you that you should be taking that as a compliment, because you're like, oh, look how mature I am, as well. And that just -
Lolo Cynthia
Absolutely
Hannah Witton
It just like, only benefits, the kind of like the groomers really.
Lolo Cynthia
I'm telling you, it's like a vicious cycle. Because even when you're in school, your girlfriend's are slightly jealous of you for getting the attention from this man. And in your mind, actually, again, as a young girl, you don't know better, you believe that the front that just showing you all this attention means that you are beautiful, or you are smarter, and more mature. And you know, in Africa where issues like ageism, I'm sure there are them in the world, where young people feel like they are not being heard. And clearly when you are a teenager, that's the time when you're trying to come into your own, you're trying to have your own identity, and you still have your parents who wants to tell you what to do, then you meet this older man who's making you feel like you have your own identity, like wow, what you're saying is so smart and so mature, you love the fact that they give you that attention, they allow you be, in quote, your full self, but you do not recognise that this guy is actually grooming you. He's telling you exactly what you want to hear, how you want to feel, based on what he wants to do with you later.
So that was a very, very faulty sexual template that I grew up with, and when I began, when I moved to South Africa, actually, it's a very interesting story. This was when I moved to South Africa and I was telling a friend of mine, I was maybe 17. And I was telling a friend of mine about some relationships that I was in and just some of the things that were happening, like, oh, I was dating this guy, and he wanted to have sex with me, he wanted to touch me and I was on my period. But I wasn't interested. Well, you know, I didn't want him to feel like I did not want him to touch me, so I just allowed him. But at the end of it, he looked at me with so much disgust and he told me to leave his house. I was just saying this normally, like you know, can you believe and her jaw dropped. She was like, Lolo, what are you talking about? I'm like, Yeah, you know how guys are? You know, that's how they do. And she's like, this is not, this is not normal. This is this is not, this is not normal. And it was just in that moment that I began to realise that oh, okay, maybe maybe there's something wrong here. Because even during those moments, I didn't feel okay. But nobody had told me that that feeling was, what I felt was valid, that what was happening wasn't right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lolo Cynthia
So I thought there was something wrong with me. Exactly. I thought I was the problem. Because, you know, I meant I meant to deal with it, everyone is doing the same thing. So it was leaving my country, talking to other young women, from other places, who had a healthier sexual template, that shined a light on the blind spot that I had regarding relationships. So just working through that, personally, is that was the ignition for me to go into this field. That was when I recognised like, wow, like so many of my friends, so many of my peers, we literally think the same way. And I have to say something. If I'm going through this exploration, if I'm going through these moments of clarity, what can I do to ensure that the young girls, you know, that are coming up to me, or even my friends recognise that those things that we have been going through, those things that we assumed were normal, were not. So that's actually the way I got introduced into the sex education field.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and so many of those things, like that example that you mentioned, as well, like, you're right, like they become normalised and that's why you're just like, oh, that's this just be like how men are. And, and then also kind of, like, tied into the dating older men as well, because of that, like power imbalance as well. They can be like, this is how it is. And the young woman, like, doesn't know any better because, like you said, like, there's, it's all shrouded in silence. So where are they going to learn how things could be? Like, I'm curious to know, like these, like behind closed doors conversations about sex, because I also relate to that a lot in terms of just like, no one was talking about it, but then the moment that you had an opportunity to talk about it was like, it just like just spilling out, but you mentioned like misinformation. And so like growing up, what were some of those kind of like, myths and misinformation like and messages that you were receiving about sex and relationships?
Lolo Cynthia
So again, like I said, and just like you mentioned, when you are in closed doors, and you cannot wait to explore some of these conversations. One big one was, and everyone talks about it was, and it's quite harmful, it's like breast ironing. So in my country, again, because there's the narrative that if you look full, like if you have big breasts, the men after you, they would actually perform breast ironing on some girls. What that is -
Hannah Witton
What is this?
Lolo Cynthia
Okay, I'm about to blow your mind. Breast ironing is when a girl is developing, so maybe she's 13/14, and you can see her breasts are coming out. They take a stick or a broom, and the hit on the breast, then use a cloth and tie tightly with the assumption that it's not going to grow. So they want to force it from growing, they want to, in quote, reduce the puberty hormone. And it's such a misinformation that is so sad, you know, that up until today, not even like this is happening 10 years ago. Today, not in the rural communities, in the modern places, young people are still going through things like that. And in the back of their mind, their parents are doing these things out of love.
Hannah Witton
To protect them.
Lolo Cynthia
Exactly. Even when you're perpetuating such violent act on your child, you believe you're doing it from a place of love, you're able to see the violence that comes with that. You know, they're also the assumptions of that if a man should touch you on your legs, you're going to get pregnant, so you shouldn't you know, talk to guys. And the moment where you are with a guy, and he touches you, and nothing happens, you're like, oh, okay, so what else can I do? And that's what opens the door up to what I would call sexual grooming or sexual seduction. And I think one thing of mine was, it wasn't even from a place of misinformation. It was just, we just didn't know what we didn't know. As young girls or even young boys, you're going through hormonal changes. Well, with Hollywood now, young boys, they talk about things like wet dreams, they talk about masturbation, it was it's commonly acceptable in our society. It's even a theme among the guys that they feel like it's like a status symbol. But for young women, no one talks about the fact that girls go through those hormonal changes and they get horny.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lolo Cynthia
You're 14 year old, and you put a pillow in between your legs for the first time, and you feel this pleasure and you don't know what the hell just happened. So every night you sleep with a pillow in between your legs, because you're trying to recreate that feeling that you experienced the first time. It's those two things, and I went to boarding school, so in boarding school you get to see girls do some really crazy things.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Lolo Cynthia
Like, why are you crossing your legs so tight girl? What's going on over there? So it's just those little things that, you know, it's only in retrospect, actually, that I begin to see and say wow, like those are say things that were experienced as we were growing up as teenagers, that no one told us that it was normal, that we had to try and explore in private. And sadly, if you were in a boarding school, or if you're around girls who made fun of you, if they catch you doing something, in quote, masturbating, they would make fun of you. So imagine the shame and the stigma that comes from just exploring your your physical body, doing something that is natural. So those are just some of the things that come to mind.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that breast ironing thing, I'd never heard of before. That makes me just think that it's like another example of okay, the problem is men, and society in general, sexualizing young girls, and so it's young girls who have to change. And, yeah.
Lolo Cynthia
You have to take on the burden of making sure that men are not aroused. So your desirability to men is your problem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lolo Cynthia
It's not the fact that the men desire you as a child, it's the fact that you are just desirable to them. So you have to encroach, I think, they always frame men as this helpless beings who are so sexual, they are so animalistic, that they can't control their urges. So we women have to take on that burden and responsibility to help them. But at the end, they also frame men as the head in our society that they are the ones who are more logical. So it's always like this, what? Why do we have these conflicting messages?
Hannah Witton
They're supposed to be like super rational and clear headed, and yet, apparently, as soon as they're horny, like all of that gets thrown out the window. Crazy, that's not the way to run a country. So one thing that I heard you say, which I had never heard before, that I thought was really cool, is like your sexual template. And I love that phrasing. And so like, we've kind of talked a bit about what it was like for you growing up and stuff and I'm interested to know now like, you know, as a grown woman, as as a sex educator, like what does your sexual template look like now? And then also, what kind of sexual template do you want young people to have growing up now?
Lolo Cynthia
That's an interesting question. I think from in retrospect, because my sexual template then, it was just really unhealthy. And not unhealthy from the side of people were taking advantage of me, even if that did happen. It was so unhealthy because I was overly sexualized, and I engaged in hypersexuality. So for me now is trying to create a balance between yes, I am a very sexual person, but where is the healthy spot? You know, back then I would have sex or engage in sexual activities with people who I didn't really, really connect with, but I felt that I just had to. You know, we might be kissing and so I might as well just finish it off. That was just the mentality. But for me right now as an adult it's about creating a balance, it's about recognising that if I, if I haven't emotionally connected with you to a certain level, I'm not going to be aroused, I'm not going to want to have sex with you, and it's okay for me to tell you and say look like, I know you like me but we haven't gotten to the place where I feel comfortable enough to even move to the next step. So it's all about finding that healthy balance. I think for young people now, it's either they're overly sexualized, or under sexualized or hyper, so they don't know the balance. They don't know, should I find what works for you, you know, make sure to listen to your body.
As women, I feel like we forget that we have this intuition that tells us how we want to move and it's really, with our sexual and reproductive organs, we are not just visual creatures, I see this guy I like this guy, I want to have sex with guys. No, sometimes even how you feel mentally, how you're feeling emotionally, if you're stressed at work, all of that affects the way you engage in sex, or the way you connect with people. So make sure to listen to your body and try and have an understanding of how you feel at that moment what you want with that person. Yes, I really liked you but maybe where I am right now is just, I just want to kiss you. Or I just want us to hold hands in public, like that is a big deal for some people. Do not see that, oh, I just want to hold hands in public, does that make me you know, childish? You know, there's the idea of if you don't want to have aggressive sex, if you're not so sexual then you're a child. So taking young people away from the mindset of doing things that feel good for you, doing things that are healthy is childish, or vanilla, which I hate that word. There is nothing like that. Do what works for you, go at the same pace, always interrogate yourself, ask yourself the why. If it doesn't feel good, then stop. Never think that the way you're feeling doesn't matter. It matters. And that's internal validity, that internal thermostat in your mind that tells you stop, you don't feel this way, you're not enjoying this, tell the guy to stop, no matter how far you guys have gone, you have the power to say that. So that's really the template that I'm working with as an adult now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it takes so much like unlearning, and learning, to kind of create that trust in yourself as well. And not just like really being able to really listen to yourself and know what it is you want. Because like, knowing what you want can sometimes be really difficult, but then also then like then telling somebody else that as well. But yeah, you're so right, that a lot of the times the decisions that we're making are based off of these, like, oh, if I do this, does that make me cheap? Or like, oh, you should only like put out on the third date. Like there are all of these rules, and, and everyone's trying their best to, like, follow all of these completely bullshit rules. They're often really like sexist as well, rather, and kind of like figuring out, because that's a lot of effort. That's there's a lot of like energy spent on like worrying, and trying to figure out if you're doing things properly. Whereas that energy, like you said, can be spent really getting to know yourself. Yeah, but it's hard.
Lolo Cynthia
It is hard. It's so funny because people are like, oh Lolo, you're an expert, oh, you're so confident, how did you get so confident? I tell people it's like it is literally difficult to do this. Like it's everyday learning process, and everyday learning process, and I think there was something that I used to do way back, and I still see with a lot of young people is that to bypass the internal thermostat in my mind that tells me you're not physically ready, I will drink. I will have a glass of wine and be like, you know, I'm just trying to cool down, I'm trying to get in the mood. No, you're trying to bypass that natural need to engage in natural foreplay, or you do drugs or do weed, you know, whatever it is that seems, in quote, an aphrodisiac. And it's so funny, like people go and date, first date, second date, and the one thing they want to order is a glass of wine. It makes the conversation more interesting. No, it means that at that moment, you're not ready to really be present. You really are looking for something that bypasses what is making you think rationally. So it just these little, little things that I have to call myself out, or I'll say okay, yeah, you're going to go see this guy. Do you really want to have that second shot of vodka before you get on the way? Do you really want to do that? Because I think subconsciously, I always felt that I was too much in the sense that you want too much and guys are not in the mood for all of this foreplay. You want to have a conversation before you guys kiss, it's like, dude, you're killing the mood. So if I go there semi tipsy, it's just going to be so easy to bypass all of that.
So again, I just feel it's recognising who you are, recognising the activities, the tasks that you engage in that makes, that puts you in a position where you victimise yourself and you retrigger yourself. Because there are certain times where you continue to do things that your body has told you physically, like you're not ready for it, but you don't listen to it. So you do other things to bypass what your body is telling you, what your mind, what your spirit is telling you. So it's really, it has really been, like you said, an unlearning and relearning process for me. Like feeling bad after, this is a classic example. When you're ovulating, and you are horny, but you are not horny for sex, that's what people think, sometimes you just want connection. And it's you know, your hormones, there's a cocktail of hormones going on in your body. You need connection. It's not the sex that's going to fulfil that connection that you're currently craving, you just want to be with someone that makes you feel good, that you connect with on a deeper level. But you don't want to fulfil that. It's so difficult to find a guy that you connect with like, dude, ain't nobody got time for that. Who comes to your house, you guys have sex. But before you have sex, you probably have a glass of wine, you smoke a weed, you chill, you watch a movie, a movie, you guys get to the introduction. It's been it's the beginning of the movie, you have sex when he leaves. You feel worse than you felt before he came. Because now your body, your cup, you've gotten that, you know, sexual thing out. But you go back to the beginning, and you realise that what you were seeking was connection. So this, this is really how we women, and I'm sure guys go through this as well, we revictimize ourselves, we put ourself in situations that continue to make us feel less than we ought to feel. And the more we do it, it becomes a norm, it becomes your own natural sexual template that when you see somebody that you connect with, you don't even understand what to do. In fact, you didn't enjoy sex, except you have your two glass of wine because now you're used to the adrenaline and the dopamine that comes with wine or with other drugs that you take. So it's again, I think it's a very multifaceted conversation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And actually, I'm just gonna completely call myself out here because oh my god, I was just remembering like, when I was single, and if I was like out drinking with some friends, and then I would start like craving, like you said, connection. And I was just like, I just want male attention right now. And I would just like drunk text people who like, I maybe thought would be up for hanging out. Like, it never worked, and I'm actually really grateful but it but it never did in hindsight. But yeah, like alcohol in me, like, I suddenly just felt a lot more vulnerable, like those feelings of loneliness definitely, like came out a lot more when I was single and drunk. And yeah, I would, yeah, I would never have like, been like, hey, what are you up to? at one in the morning if I hadn't been drinking?
Lolo Cynthia
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, it's wild. And I and I've definitely done the kind of, like you said, like, using alcohol as like a social lubricant, to, you know, kind of force connection more easily. And, like, and I'm also kind of not judging it as well, just because of how connected alcohol and dating are, at least it's like that in the UK. Like, those things are just like, so interconnected. Like, you know, you go on a date with someone and it's like, oh, we go, we're going for a drink. And like that, it's just a given, like, you just don't even question it. Yeah, so I understand that that's just like a very normal experience. But you're so right that, like, we're almost like, we're nervous to be like, oh my god, imagine doing a date sober. Like -
Lolo Cynthia
I get to be my real self like what is - so I get to see everything he's doing. Oh, my God, no, I would rather not be, you know, let's wait till after the 10th date when I can now look at him with some form of clarity.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so you you created a sex ed syllabus, like curriculum? How did that start? Like, what was your starting point of like what you want, like young people to get out of this, like, how did you figure out what your priorities were in terms of like what was going to go into this syllabus that you created?
Lolo Cynthia
Um, when I moved back to Nigeria, this was after I finished my second degree, the one thing I started doing was going to schools and talking to young people about relationships, just like when we're talking about healthy relationships, unhealthy relationships, power dynamics, and that used to form my lesson guides. But as I began to speak to them, I realised that you know, before we even talk about healthy relationship, they don't even understand the fundamentals. What are the values? They don't understand what puberty is. So many questions around puberty. They don't understand what virginity is. They don't understand what the hymen is. So I said, let's go back to the drawing board. Well, what can we start with? Let's start with puberty. So we said we puberty, began to layer on, we added sexual health, talking about STDs, then I saw that you know what, there are people in the university in my country that have never seen what an IUD looks like. So imagine a girl in high school, there is no way she has even seen what any contraceptive Plan B looks like. So how about we add contraceptive to that curriculum? So it was just recognising the gaps in knowledge with young people that made me say, okay, let's add these things on top, let's add these other conversation there. And from there, I started doing a lot of research, getting guides from tonnes of resources that were out there, but modifying it to fit the Nigeria and or even African as a whole, our narrative. Some of the case studies I would use, I will use names that they knew, I would use scenarios that they knew, you know, because I also used to have private consultations, so I would modify some of the things that were spoken about, because I realised that it was going to reach a greater audience if I'm using things that they actually see and hear around them. So that's how I add to the curriculum.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And like, have there been any questions that students have asked you that have been really difficult to answer? Or just any like funny, silly questions that they've asked? I love hearing about these.
Lolo Cynthia
Honestly, all the questions, there's no one that is easy to answer. I think actually, when people never realise that young people are thinking about these things. You're like, yo, what kind of questions are this? So we every class, we have to tell the teachers to excuse us, just to give the students and privacy let's have this conversation. And we would recommend that they write their questions in papers, and we just pass out a basket and everyone puts it there. So no one knows who asked what question. And I think one question that came up a lot, and it really made me think with the women, I got a lot of questions around virginity. How do I know if I'm still a virgin? What can I do to keep my virginity? And around relationships, what can I do I love this guy, but I don't want to have sex with him, but how do I tell him that you know, I don't want to have sex, without him thinking I don't love him? Versus guys, where 90% of their questions were sexual. How do I get to hard on to last? What do I do to make sure that my girl knows that I'm ready for sex? Where do I buy condoms? So it also made me realise the conditioning of us. You know, they say women are more relational and men are more physical. I think we those questions that were coming out, I could see that so many of the girls were trying to get answers regarding self confidence, self agency, and relationships. While the guys were not even interested in anything with self confidence, they already had the self confidence checked. You know, they just wanted to make sure that you know, they could get their sexual needs met. I think one question again, I really got to me was, it's so funny, because the girls did not know where the blood came from. It's so interesting,
Hannah Witton
In terms of periods?
Lolo Cynthia
They don't know what their vulva looks like, they have never looked at their vagina before. In fact, it's almost a taboo for a girl to look at her vagina, how we should look at it, we should take a picture, we should use a mirror. It's unheard of. So I realised that they don't know what the hymen looks like. They don't know where the menstrual blood comes from. So those were some of the key questions that I was getting from the from girls, when it came to sex ed. So it was it was a mixed, yeah,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that also makes me think about like the kinds of questions that like boys and girls would be like, encouraged to ask and think about as well. Like, it's acceptable for a young girl to be concerned about her virginity, and to be concerned about her relationships, where it wouldn't necessarily be as acceptable for her to ask where can I get condoms?
Lolo Cynthia
Exactly, exactly. You're actually spot on with that. So even if she had certain needs around those topics, she might still feel uncomfortable to ask those questions.
Hannah Witton
Even if it is anonymous, like even like writing it down, no one knows that it's you. Yeah. Oh, actually, that is a good point, though like, because it was anonymous, how did you know that that was the boys asking those questions, and the girls asking theirs, was it the style of handwriting?
Lolo Cynthia
No, based on the on the question itself, my boyfriend said this.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I see, yeah yeah yeah
Lolo Cynthia
And the boys are more like, how do I get this girl? This girl, you know, this girl has been hitting on, me and my friend has been hitting on this girl, how do I know if she likes me more? You know, it was just these little questions that made me realise like, wow, okay, we have to actually get these young girls talking. But if it had to come to sex, like if it was physical and the girls were asking it, it was you know, I remember a question with girl said, can I get pregnant through oral sex? Can I get pregnant to anal sex? I want to keep my virginity but you know, my boyfriend is saying lets have anal sex. So it's this question that is still phrased around keeping their virginity because in my country, virginity status is it's a huge deal. It's a big thing. That's why even the idea of using a tampon it's almost unheard of for like a teenage girl to go and buy tampons. No, you can't do that, you can't do that. So it's those those little, I won't way little, but when you start to really, you know, reflect on the questions on the conversation, you see that there's a deeper issue there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it kind of connects with what you were saying about, like not getting to know your vulva as well. Because if you're not encouraged to use tampons, obviously, like using tampons, it's a lot more intimate, you're really getting to know that area than if you're just like putting like a pad or something in your underwear. And so it's kind of like it's all connected, it's all about kind of like being disconnected like from your body.
Lolo Cynthia
Yeah. And it's interesting, because even when you when you think about that as well is that the woman's genitals, her vagina, her vulva, seem to exist for the pleasure of the men that she's with, or for the purpose of procreation, it's never for her. So you have to wash it clean so it doesn't smell, you have to take care of it so when you're with your husband, your boyfriend, he doesn't feel that there's something wrong. You have to take care of it so that when you give it, you can be able to push, it's never for you, you don't need to see what it looks like. You just need to make sure it's clean for when it needs to be used. It's used by the people who need to use it. That disconnect from your body. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So was it Nigeria that you're writing this curriculum in? I'm curious, I don't actually know, but like, what is the state of like, LGBTQ plus rights? And was that something that you could or couldn't, like, include in the curriculum?
Lolo Cynthia
That's a good question. I couldn't include that in the curriculum. And when I was teaching in a in a correctional centres, the juvenile prison, and this was one of the questions that came up like, Oh, what about gay people? You know, they just brushing the conversation. Like, I think the young boy asked me like, why is it that people hate for gay people? Or is being gay wrong? And I have to tell them that it's not a thing about wrong or right, like you're in a country where people, in quote, under the Constitution, have made it illegal. It doesn't make the person illegal. It's just that the law itself is having control over people's sexuality, and it is not my rights to judge how people act or how people are. That is not my right, it is just my responsibility to give you the proper and accurate scientific information around sexuality and your body. So we will try and make the divide, trying to put some, you know, shine some light on the blind spot, because in my country, these are, there certain things you can't. Even sex ed, I had to fight.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Lolo Cynthia
I had to fight, you can't use the word sex ed, you say life orientation.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Lolo Cynthia
Yes. Because just the name says, like they think you wanted your kids to have sex. And when you add the other element of LGBT in a very conservative religious country, like Nigeria, and even Africa, it just makes it so much difficult for us to have this conversation. So it's about finding the loopholes discussing sexuality and human rights. It's gonna obviously open up the door for LGBT but the people, the students, they don't see it as a gay topic, but when they start to recognise that we are infringing on an oppressive human rights, we are people infringing on my own human rights. So allowing them to reflect and come to a conclusion while I guide them towards that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that framing because like, unfortunately, yes, like, depending on where you're working and even like the internet as well, there are like limitations and restrictions in terms of what sex educators can do. And unfortunately, like, you do have to work in certain confines depending on where you are, but yeah, loopholes, it's all about them loopholes.
Lolo Cynthia
Yes, it really is.
Hannah Witton
At the beginning, you talked about like, big boobs being sexualized, and you made a video about that as well. And it made me also think about, especially because you're like, oh, yeah, like 12/13 year old girls, it also made me think about also like how in the West, and in like, predominantly white countries as well, like black girls are often seen as more mature, like, even when they're younger, as well. And so then and then obviously, if that's tied into like, their body shape as well, then it can be exacerbated in terms of like, that perceived innocence, quote unquote, is, is often like innocence is often a lot more attributes to young, white girls.
Lolo Cynthia
It does.
Hannah Witton
And yeah, and whiteness in general. And I was interested to ask, like, how does like often like this kind of not perceived innocence or like slut shaming, often it can be tied into of young black girls and women increase that risk of like sexual assault and also just like make them more vulnerable?
Lolo Cynthia
That's a good question. And I love the way you frame because yeah, it's just made it easy for me to answer. In our society, unfortunately, women are still slut shamed and still victim blamed. But it's exhilarated when you possess the physical appearance of what people think an adulterer, a seductress looks like. So automatically, the blame is on you because again, remember the conversation that we had earlier is that society believe men are so helpless when it comes to their sexuality, that they are these animals who we need to help them control their sexual urges. So when you're a young girl who is 14 and, in quote, you are developed, people automatically believe that you are using your body to seduce the man, they never see the men as people who have some form of accountability. Even if you, as a 14 year old girl, go and report and say this guy's doing this to me, they won't believe you. They will say you lead him on, that don't you see the way you look, in fact, I'm sure you liked it. They project the idea of what you should do with your body.
Lolo Cynthia
So there is this thing in my country where it's called ronce, it's like sex work, but no one calls it sex work, it's transactional sex. So most relationships are transactionally transaction in nature. The belief that a woman who is curvy, who has curves should naturally be smart, and use her body to get money. That is the predominant narrative about women's bodies. If you have a certain figure, why wouldn't you use it for what you want. So when you're a young girl, and you have that figure, and you are not playing by just sexual template, it is a template there, you are not playing by that template, nobody believes you, because in their mind, every woman should play by that template. So this is why it's very easy for you to now get sexually harassed. Because who's going to believe you when this guy says, no, she came to my house and she opened her legs, don't you see the way she looks. Or when people in your community automatically believe because you look a certain way you already sexually promiscuous, not even because you're going through puberty. And three, when you are already sexually, when you're already being slut shamed, you look a certain way, and the older men come to you and make you feel good about your growing body, the cycle begins, you start to follow these men who are older, that's just how the vicious cycle begins. So everything that people in the society have said about you starts to become true. Because now you're with men who are already making you feel good, who are telling you that oh, the fact that you have big bussoms, and they're jealous of it, that's just how your body's meant to be, you know, then they start to teach you things that you're not meant to know.
And because our society, they pick that one example of that girl with that older man, and when negative news travels fast, they use you as an example for the other girl that they probably see in their community and say this is how they all are. So it's a very, it's a very vicious cycle where the childhood of girls who are physically developed is taken away, you don't have a childhood, you you are 11 years old, you begin to develop, you should automatically know that there is a burden on you as a girl, that you have to be the one to control the urges of the men around you. You have to take on that responsibility of their shame. So yeah, that's really it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and it's a classic example of like, damned if you do, damned if you don't. So like if you're, you know, you're a young girl with like big boobs, and you decide that you don't, don't want to use them, quote, unquote, then you're judged because it's like, why, like that's, that's your role. That's what you're supposed to be doing. But then if you then go and use your body for whatever means that you want, then you're going to be judged for that as well. You just you cannot win
Lolo Cynthia
You cannot win. In this patriarchal society, you cannot win. It's so funny, I think they just want you to be naive, they want you, they want to take advantage of your body, they want you to be so naive, that even if you do have this body that they like, you should act like you don't know what they want, so that you don't, you're not physically participating in it, but in a way, you're giving them the permission to do what they want. So it's just a twisted narrative, where at the bottom of it all it is the idea that your body does not belong to you, your body belongs to the gaze of the man and what he wishes to do with it.
Hannah Witton
And that's one of the reasons why like, sex education, and like the work that you're doing, is so important, because then by giving young people knowledge, and you know, like, accurate information, then, you know, as, as much as we also want to be like educating these older men to not be such dicks like that, like, it is, it is also a good thing to like, have, you know. I almost like sound like victim blaming the way that this is like coming into my head. But it's like, what you're doing is you're helping, you're helping these young people be less naive, even though the burden like shouldn't be on them.
Lolo Cynthia
Unfortunately, it is the way the world is, you know. I read a book and I can't remember the name of the book, and what this woman said was that when she was growing up, she wished that the older women around her sat her down and just told her that you're growing, this is the way the society is, the men would see you and want to take advantage of you. It is not your responsibility, you are not at fault. However, you should be aware of it too. You should know when it comes how what you should do, how you should avoid it, how you should let them know that you know better because, you know, predators, they don't go for girls that know better, or they don't go for children that know better. I believe there was this study that says that predators are likely to run away from kids, there's actually kids, paedophiles, who know the names of their body parts. So just by knowing that this is my penis, and this is my vagina, they run away from me because, oh, this child, if I touch this child on his penis, or on her vagina, she's gonna tell her mom that someone touched me on my vagina. So they literally look for kids that do not know anything. So it's like, when you understand the way they work, you can actually empower young people with knowledge and information for them to combat that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that that's something that like no parent wants to obviously think about, but it is it is true. And that's why like sex education is like, obviously not only necessary for like, for people to have, like really fun and pleasurable sex lives, but like safety is like a huge, huge part of it. You've talked a lot about, like, in that example, as well of like, wanting, like older women in society, or like older generations to kind of like, give that knowledge to the younger ones. And I'm curious, like, are there any men kind of doing the sex education work that you're doing in Senegal or Nigeria, who are talking to men? That isn't just about like, how to pick up girls, there's a whole market for that.
Lolo Cynthia
There's a whole world, which is a different conversation. We don't even need to go into that. I'm like, what is going on? In my community, this is Nigeria, because I've just been here for a year. In my in Nigeria, there are role models. There are men who are going out and speaking to young men about consent especially. I do not know if it's a real focus on sexuality education. But I know the issue of consent, the issue of relationships, are some of the key things that they are bringing up in their community, the issue of power dynamics, because honestly, it's a it's a it's a massive, it's a massive issue. So yeah, we do have some men male role models in our communities who are doing the work. Grown men. Yeah,
Hannah Witton
Good. Oh, it's always good to hear because sometimes like, yeah, this work is especially like, for the most part done by women.
Lolo Cynthia
Yeah, yeah, we need more men, we do.
Hannah Witton
We really do. So I've got a few questions from people on Instagram. Somebody asked, are there any Nigerian or South African specific challenges, cultural or religious, to be addressed in your sex ed?
Lolo Cynthia
I will say well, culturally, there's, there's a tonne of them, you know. The first is the breast iron, which is a massive cultural issue. Another is, I think it's the condition in the training of young girls to see their bodies for a man. Even like a quick example would be if you don't bath well, the idea of oh, we should bath well, it's good for hygiene. They don't frame you ever, they say bath well, so that your husband can enjoy your body. So there's the framing of every, there is no entire, how do I put this, when they think about young girls, everything about a young girl is for the man at the end. It's never for you. It's never for your own betterment. It's always for the betterment of that guy, that imaginary guy, even if you're four years old, there's a guy somewhere coming, and you have to do everything for that guy when he does come. And another, it's also going to be periods. You know, there are tonnes of period myths out there. The first one is if you are on your period, you're dirty, you have spiritual powers, which has also led to tonnes of diabolical things. You see young men going out there stealing young women sanitary pads, stealing their underwear with the idea of using it for voodoo. So just that idea of you know, being on your period as a spiritual thing is a real spiritual issue that we need to really talk about.
Lolo Cynthia
And also the idea of virginity. Like girls who are virgins have more power, have certain they take them for rituals. Basically, if you're a virgin, you can see that there is a king somewhere in the village who will tell you before he is buried, they need to kill 12 virgins and bury them with him. It happens still today. So hust those little culture, I keep saying little, why? Those cultural issues that have a lot of violence attached with them. Female Genital Mutilation is definitely one right up there. And it's so twisted because FGM comes in various forms in my country. The one that we really do know is the FGM that happens when the girl is a teenager. And you know, the and it goes through with the whole cultural event. But there is also the female genital mutilation that happens when your child. Basically like two three years old, and they cut off your, yeah, that's what happened to me, they cut off your, your, the big lips of your vagina because they say they don't like how it looks when a woman gets older.
Hannah Witton
Right?
Lolo Cynthia
Like when you get older, and the lips come out, they said it is not appealing. It is not appealing again for who? For the man. Not for you as a woman, it is not appealing for the man. So from when you're a child, they take it out, they cut it off, and they cut off the clitoral head as well. So what we've seen that there are so many women who grew up not even knowing that there was circumcised because this was something that was caught when you were you know, less than a week old. So when you grow up, you are experiencing pain when you have sexual intercourse, you are not feeling any certain level of pleasure, but you cannot trace it back. You keep saying what is the problem? And again, you have the shame around masturbation because again, your vulva is not your so a lot of women do not have proper sexual pleasure. And again, I keep saying it, the sexuality is for the man when he wants to come, he comes to you, when it's time to have a child, that's when you open your legs. Apart from that, you should close it and wash it. So it's very, again, I keep saying very multifaceted. And it just continues to take different forms. And you can see something happening in one village and you go to another village, and it's the same thing but morphed in a different way. I know that for some people even quoted some communities, cutting up the clitoris of the girls, probably when they are children or when they're teenagers is because they believe that when a woman has a clitoris, she is sexually promiscuous, which is one of the idea that clitoris is is the only organ in a woman's body on a human's body has meant for pleasure. So when they know that, they cut it out from when you're a teenager, because they feel like it has too much power. And if you have that organ, you're going to be unable to control your urges. So it's just like, yeah, filled with a lot of misinformation. Yeah, so yeah,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that actually ties to a question that somebody else asked about, like FGM. They said, is female circumcision the same as FGM? Because I kind of hear those two terms being used interchangeably. Are they referring to the same thing? Or is there like a kind of like cultural or political difference between the two?
Lolo Cynthia
It's the same thing. Some people just use mutilation, and some people use circumcision. Yeah, it is the same thing. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And somebody asked how to talk about female circumcision when you're from a country where it's uncommon. Because it is it is a topic that like I don't really go into at all because it's not really like it does happen in the UK, but very much like not in the cultures that I'm a part of. So, yeah, what's your take on that?
Lolo Cynthia
That's interesting, how can you be an ally? I think that's, that's the real question. I think just even having a podcast like this when we're talking about it, it's something. It's a way to start, just giving people an awareness like, wow, this is this is something happening out there. You know, even if it's not in my, in my own vicinity or in my own community, it's happening to someone that I know. And I know it happens quite a lot in the UK. It's interesting because people would not know this. These people who circumcised do not need to be people that you know. Like, maybe an African family, they relocate to the UK, when they give birth, they bring in their mom, maybe the grandma comes to take care of the child for the first three months, the grandma can be the one who circumstances the child. So these things are still happening, even in the UK, but people are just not going to the hospitals to do it. So yeah, I think using your platform, using your platform to shed light on the topic is one way to really drive the conversation, and just getting guests who can come on your platform and discuss it. I think that's definitely one way. And probably also when you discuss issues around sexual pleasure, you can broach the conversation. So you know, if you've been sexual, if you've been circumcised, it could affect the way that you receive sexual pleasure. And that just opens up, you know, another conversation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah! Because I was thinking about that as well. Because, like it at least, and kind of like the sex positive community that I'm a part of, there's so many conversations where we're trying to, like, lessen the importance of like, penetrative sex and be like, the clitoris exists, like this is, you know, like, this is where the pleasure is at. But then, of course, like, if you've been circumcised, then that whole conversation, that whole narrative, can be really alienating. And so like, yeah, like, making, you're right, like making room for those experiences. And because I can feel like sometimes we can do this complete, like, either or, like, either, either you're, you're saying that penetration is king, and it's all about the penis, or you're all about the clitoris, and there's no like, mid there's no, middle ground was yeah, there's no in between. Because I've even heard from people who, when hearing like this kind of like shift in conversation, which is about like, focusing on like clitoral pleasure, who, like, but I love penetration, and then they feel like really, like, oh, yeah, like, oh, should I not be liking that? Is that not feminist? Yeah, so yeah, it's definitely something that I think is really important to acknowledge, and just like how varied people's like what people like, but then also, you know, being realistic about, like, you know, our bodies in terms of like, what they may have been through, and what kinds of what kinds of sexual activity that you have access to, as well.
Lolo Cynthia
Yeah, that's really true. And I think again, it also opens up the conversation, other ways to receive sexual pleasure that isn't just penetration or clitoral stimulation. And if you've had a certain organ that has been cut out, it doesn't mean that you are never going to have sexual pleasure. Again, I can say the woman's body is wonders, there are ways you can trick your body, there are ways again, something as little as foreplay, just having conversation. If you're the kind of person that loves to talk, you would recognise that once you're talking in depth with someone that you connect to, you naturally start to lubricate, you don't even need to be touched. Letting women know that there are other ways that you can really get that pleasure because it is natural, you are entitled to pleasure as a woman, and the cutting of an organ does not determine the pleasure that you should get in the world. So putting that message out there, letting them know that that there are ways you can have a fantastic sexual life.
Hannah Witton
That's true. And like most of the times this has happened, I have been half asleep, but I have been able to come without any like genital touch.
Lolo Cynthia
It's possible, I mean, you read a book and there is a sexual scene, and just thinking about it, you have to go to the bathroom. It's like, take advantage of what is there.
Hannah Witton
So true. Lolo, thank you so much. It has been an absolute joy to chat with you. And thank you for just sharing like all of your knowledge and expertise and everything. Where can people find you, and your work, and like maybe even the syllabus you created if that's something that they want to check out, and all the good things you do.
Lolo Cynthia
Thank you so much, Hannah. It's been a fantastic pleasure. I am such a huge fan. So you can find me on all social media platforms, My social media handle is @lolo_cy. That's L O L O underscore C Y. You can watch my videos on YouTube, it's Lolo Talks. I have tonnes of free online content. It's all on my platform, Twitter, Instagram, you can find my posters. Our sexuality education is still private, our syllabus. So it's on the need to know base, we take it to schools, we print it out, and we also you know, give it to certain enterprises that require it.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice. So maybe if, if anyone is listening from Nigeria or anywhere else.
Lolo Cynthia
Reach out to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Amazing. Thank you so much. And thank you all for listening.