Period Equality, Menstruation Workplace Rights & Jewish Joy With Gabby Edlin | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I'm joined by the incredible Gabby Edlin. Gabby is an activist campaigning for menstrual equality and is the founder of the charity Bloody Good Period, which provides period supplies for asylum seekers, refugees, and anyone who can't afford them all around the UK. Bloody Good Period also provides menstrual, sexual, and reproductive health education within those communities. And for her work, Gabby was named as one of the Evening Standard's Progress 1000 Top Changemakers and is a leading activist for menstruation equality and period policy change in the UK.
I wanted to get Gabby onto the podcast to talk all about her important work, but to also hear about what it's like navigating activist spaces as a Jewish person. Gabby told me all about what led her to start Bloody Good Period and the work she does with the charity to provide asylum seekers with free and high quality period products. She talked about the employment scheme she set up with BGP that campaigns for period rights in workplaces and works to prevent prejudice against employees who experience the impact of menstruation. We discussed the importance of being able to talk about your period honestly and openly here in the UK and, whilst we still have a long way to go, how much she thinks things have changed and improved in the last few years. We talked about the importance of trans inclusivity in period activism, and how transphobia has no place in the feminist and period equality movements.
Gabby talked about how navigating charity and activist spaces as a Jewish person has been a nightmare, and how hard it was when she realised that many fellow left wing people don't support Jewish people like they do other minority groups. Gabby talked about the gaslighting of Jewish people today and how exhausting it is navigating antisemitism and even experiences of philosemitism. However, Gabby also talked about the importance of Jewish joy and what that looks like for her, and why you can't just live your life focusing on the pain but have to fight antisemitism by living with joy. I absolutely loved my chat with Gabby, understanding more about the kind of work that is still needed to work towards greater period equality and rights in the UK, and getting to talk about both our experiences of antisemitism and how we navigate it in progressive spaces.
Please note we do talk about antisemitism and transphobia in this episode, so please bear that in mind before listening and do take care of yourself first.
And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify: it is really appreciated and really helps us out. And without further ado, here is my chat with the wonderful Gabby Edlin.
Gabby, welcome to Doing It. I'm so excited to finally get you on. We've crossed paths in work so much.
Gabby Edlin
I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, we've done like a YouTube thing. But we've never actually just had like, one on one. And yeah, I'm delighted. Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So tell us a bit about like, your story. And like what led you to founding Bloody Good Period? And also what what is Bloody Good Period?
Gabby Edlin
Sure. So Bloody Good Period is a UK based charity and we provide period products and menstrual education for asylum seekers, refugees, and anyone who can't access it. We've been running for five and a half years. And I founded the charity as a way to ensure that asylum seekers at drop-in centres - I mean, I started in London, but throughout the UK - were able to access high quality period products at a regular pace. So it started because I was volunteering at a local synagogue's drop-in centre that they had just set up for asylum seekers. And when I got the sort of list of all the things that they were going to be collecting and distributing, all the essentials, basically, I realised that there weren't any period products. And about half the people there were women and people who menstruate and I was like, you know, this is - I mean, now it feels like it would be like, "What, that's crazy," but like, this is like five and a half years ago, we just didn't talk about periods in the same way. Like, we just didn't. Like, society has come on leaps and bounds, you know, from the work that like both of us and like our peers are doing, like, massive changes have been made. So when I brought this up, it was kind of met with like, you know, just a bit of embarrassment really, and a bit of like, "Well, we do give them out, but it's just a pad here and there and that's all we really can afford from our funding, and that's what we can store." So that's why I thought, okay, well, we need a regular way of accessing period products for the centres. That means that the centres, which are already run by amazing volunteers, aren't stressed on spending funds they don't have and aren't really like - aren't worrying about where these products go. So yes, so I put a status on Facebook, which shows how long ago it was, and just said like, "I'm collecting period products for this centre, can anyone send them?" And I thought it would just be friends. And really, really quickly, I started getting deliveries from people that I'd never met, who'd heard of what I was doing.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Gabby Edlin
And that that really started to show me - I was like, oh, there's not only a need for the product, but people have like a real need to be able to do something. And that was really how Bloody Good Period was born. And I've got a background in sort of art and design and creative interventions and I decided to set it up. Make it an organisation. See, like, if it could work and make it, you know, a not euphemistic, not embarrassed, not shy organisation because I felt that there were too many - or there wasn't that many, but of like period organisations that existed, it was very euphemistic, it was very "we don't actually say the word." It also wasn't particularly inclusive. And there was a real sort of like colonial, actually quite like racist aspects in it, in that it wasn't - a lot of places weren't really asking the women or people who menstruate what they wanted, they were just giving them. They were getting cheap supplies and all of that. I wanted to really sort of not just give people access to period products, but really change the way that we think about it at all. And that's BGP, really, and it's grown and now today, we have, like 12 members of staff. We work with 1000s of women and people who menstruate every month. We have our education sessions, where people can get menstrual, sexual, reproductive health advice, and information. And we have a Bloody Good Employer's scheme as well, where we are helping workplaces in the UK become menstrually equitable and support the people in their workplaces who menstruate.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, what does that mean? Being, like menstrually equitable?
Gabby Edlin
"Why doesn't everybody know?" I guess it means making sure that the people in the workplace who do menstruate are offered the kind of support that they need if they need it. So before when we were starting to research why this was necessary we were talking to women who had been managed out of their jobs, because they had adverse period conditions. They might have had PMDD, or they might have had endometriosis, or they might have just had month on month really bad cramps, and every month they were having to take sick leave. And it would get to the point where their workplace would say, "Well, you just can't work with us anymore," you know, or they'd find a way to make them leave. And it was all these individual stories that we wanted to sort of bring together to make a case to say you actually, you know, workplaces need to change the way that you treat people.
Hannah Witton
Is that legal?
Gabby Edlin
Well, no.
Hannah Witton
But like is that like not gender discrimination?
Gabby Edlin
Well, exactly, yes. But what always seems to happen in these cases, or often seems to happen, is that the women or the people who menstruate don't have the legal support, they don't have access to the legal support, and so they don't know if they're being discriminated against. And often, you know, shady workplaces will have tactics of making sure that people don't know exactly or do know, but on - it isn't made clear why they're being fired. And so yeah, I don't know the exact legalities of discriminating against someone because of their period, but I'm pretty sure it is illegal. And what we really wanted to do was take the onus off anyone who was having a really challenging period to go and talk to their manager who might not be that approachable, you know, regardless of their gender, or, you know, might not be able to work in the office full time, for example, they might need a flexible way of working, and put the onus back on the structures and their systems to make sure that it works for everybody. So we developed it for about three years, basically, and we did a huge amount of research. And we've just launched this year. So it really it consists of doing workshops with different levels of the team. And it's about different expectations that your staff can have, you know, be that free period product or flexible working. The communications around how we talk about periods and period related conditions in the workplace. And then also things like policy as well, how's it written into policy the way that you support people who menstruate in your organisation?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that sounds so important. And like, I'm also thinking of like, how that also crosses over into kind of like, disability awareness as well, because that's like all kind of like under this umbrella of health. And I think also like the last couple of years with the pandemic, there's been a lot more conversations around health and flexible working and things like that. So it kind of like it's all very much tied together.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah, exactly. And what - and what we find - what we found is that, you know, it's just, it's just worse for people with disabilities, of course it is, because they're already not being listened to. And so our aim with with BGE is to be able to tie in and sort of work alongside and partner with all of these other either sort of accreditations or awareness raising organisations, anything from disability in the workplace, to menopause in the workplace, to pregnancy, to miscarriage, all of these things that are affecting us that -
Hannah Witton
Mental health as well, I guess.
Gabby Edlin
Mental health very much - that basically, you know, workplaces need to do better at. And making sure that they understand that this is all interconnected. And you don't just get to choose one basically, that you sort of go with. It's you do BGE and then you do miscarriage support, and then you do something else, and then you do something else or you know, or the other way around. But yeah, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
One of the things I remember talking to you about was how you had difficulty like getting charity status, because of the name. D'you wanna chat about that? Is it the "bloody"?
Gabby Edlin
Yeah, yeah. It was the bloody next to the period. So if they had had a problem with bloody, I would have almost understood because it's a semi swear word. You know, it's, you know - I think, you know, everyone's grandma bloody says it. There we go. But it's still - it's got some sort of curse status. But basically, they didn't like it because it was next to the word period. And they said that would be offensive. And so we had to - it took us a good year, I think, to get charity status for other reasons as well, in that, you know, the Charity Commission was completely overwhelmed by everyone wanting to start charities, which I found surprising. But yeah, it was a big part of it was the name and we just - I don't often put my foot down, you know, I'm always interested in conversations, and, you know, listening to different points of view. But I really was like, no, this is essential that people are made to feel uncomfortable, actually. And then that then leads on to challenging why they feel uncomfortable. Because, you know, periods aren't just periods by themselves. Period poverty doesn't just exist in a vacuum. It's because of the shame, it's because of the silence, it's because people don't want to talk about it. So it was absolutely crucial that we that we got the name Bloody Good Period through and not just BGP, and not just period and all of that. But we succeeded.
Hannah Witton
As you should.
Gabby Edlin
Yes, exactly.
Hannah Witton
That is wild to me. I didn't realise that it was like because of it being like bloody and periods, not just like bloody being a swear word. So it like literally was like, it's period blood that is offensive. Wow.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah. It's us saying what a period is basically. If you just say period, fine, it could be anything else. But if you're saying blood next to it, like there's no mistakes made, you know.
Hannah Witton
It's just like, "Whoa, too much."
Gabby Edlin
Too much information.
Hannah Witton
"Don't tell us about that." Yeah. To you. What does having a bloody good period look like?
Gabby Edlin
Good question. To me personally, it doesn't even necessarily mean not having pain, because a small amount of pain, like, is I know, normal, but anything more than that is not a good period. So for me, it's having manageable pain, it's having the products that I need and that I feel comfortable with. And having people around me who support whatever my period shows itself up to be that month, because sometimes it's like, completely manageable. And sometimes I feel like I'm gonna vomit. And, you know, it's really like, you just don't know. So for me, it's really like, it's all the things around it. It's, my workplace, you know, being able to cope with the fact that my timetable might change because of how my period might be. And it's things like being able to have like toilets where you can wash out your menstrual cup and not have to just wipe it out or bring a bottle of water into the toilet and squirt it over. the toilet You know, that kind of thing. But yeah, and it's about being able to talk about it, for me. Like that's what a good period is for me. Just being able to like, say to my husband, like, "I feel terrible because you know, of my period" and it not be any sort of like - I mean, I hate I hate a euphemism like I don't - I don't like it. I don't think it's usef-
Hannah Witton
"Oh, Aunt Flow's come to visit?"
Gabby Edlin
Exactly, like, "Ooh, I've just got a bit of tummy ache." Like no, he knows exactly what I mean.
Hannah Witton
"I'm bleeding from my vagina."
Gabby Edlin
Exactly. Exactly And it doesn't look like the blood that comes out your finger. Just so you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Very different. Very different. I remember that just being like a whole thing when you go from seeing like adverts with like blue liquid on telly and then you have this like brown lumpy stuff coming out your body, and you're like, "This does not add up."
Gabby Edlin
I don't think I knew that clots were normal until I started Bloody Good Period actually. And I think they were just - all of these things were things in the back of my mind that I was just like, "Oh, one day I should get this checked out. Or one day, I should look into what this is." Or I was just so embarrassed about it that I just didn't even think about it, didn't even mention it. But like, yeah, I think we - I mean, even now that period companies are starting to put blood in their adverts, we're still not quite there where we're able to be open and understand like what a period looks like, because it's not just some nice red liquid actually, like it can be, like you say, anything from like brown and clotting to like, almost like orange because it's like diluted or something. And you're like "When did I eat beetroots and tangerine all day?"
Hannah Witton
"And how did that get into my uterus?"
Gabby Edlin
So yeah. I think there's still there's still work to be done on that kind of stuff. But we're getting there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, in terms of work to be done, like what to you does, like a world - or I guess the UK, because that's where BGP focuses - what does it look like when BGP is no longer needed?
Gabby Edlin
Love that. I love that imagining, because it kind of changes every time actually. And the two things that would, that we would never be around - we wouldn't have to be around for - is that people would have access to products: whatever it was they needed, they could get them for free. And they were high quality. And they were at a rate that people needed them. And they were accessible in different places, you know, kind of - kind of like the condom scheme, you know, you can still buy them if you want to, but everybody else can get them for free. And there's never any judgement really about - I've never felt judged in STI clinic about being like "Can I have two more bags?" You know.
Hannah Witton
"Big bags, please."
Gabby Edlin
"And can I have some lube in there as well," you know. I want that to be the way that we sort of receive period products if we need to. And the other thing is just really excellent education about our bodies and the way that our periods work and why certain things happen or certain things don't at different times of the month. And I want that to be everywhere. I want that to be in schools. I want that to be - I want it to be accurate information on social media and the internet. And I think the more accurate information that gets out there the more these myths - that I don't know if you've seen but like I've started to see like on TikTok and stuff, you know, things about stopping your period with paprika, like, don't do that. People drinking paprika, like the spice in water, and being like, "This will stop your period."
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Gabby Edlin
It's almost like twofold. It's like we need way more accurate information just in the first place. And then with that we need like a removal of all the myths, which I think to sort of - it'll cancel the myths out by having more information. That's that's really how I see BGP not being needed anymore. And just people being able to menstruate in a way that feels comfortable for them really.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah. Without like, the shame and the stigma, and all of that. Why aren't period products free in the UK? What's going on there? There's been like, obviously, like, amazing activism in that in that space, like Free Periods, and changes in in the law, but it's still not like free for everyone like, you know, public toilets provide you a toilet roll.
Gabby Edlin
Exactly. Exactly. And soap. And everything you can hygienically get out of the toilets, but not period products, because you know, it is - it's for women, and it's for people with wombs, and they matter less, basically, in society. Like, it sounds like a really simple thing. But, you know, we see it everywhere. We see it in all policies from violence, domestic violence, to the way the, you know, young Black girls are treated by the police, you know, every - we matter less, and certain people matter even less. And, you know, we just have to keep going and keep fighting to make sure that all of these interconnected issues get recognised, and one of them is period products. And yeah, we've made huge strides. And it's amazing that schoolchildren can access them for free. But you know, that job isn't even nearly done yet. Most schools don't even know that that scheme is on offer. And if schools don't know a scheme's on offer then they won't take it up. And then it just gets, you know, pushed to the back. And then the funding gets, you know, ditched. I mean, Scotland have done amazingly well. And that's where we sort of look to for success, because they have passed legislation, which means that period products should be freely available for anyone who needs them. And then there's all these different schemes of accessing them as well. But it's that and then also, you know, the period product companies, it's really not in their interest for these products to be free. You know, they can do as much marketing and Always can, you know, do as many emotional adverts as they want about ending period poverty: they will not do it, and they don't want to do it. Because -
Hannah Witton
That's their whole business model.
Gabby Edlin
It's their business model. The very best that can happen to them as they get a government contract, and then they have to probably sell them closer to cost. So even though they talk about it, you know, we know that's just our ideas being lifted and sort of marketed. So yeah, that's some of the reasons, I think, but it isn't an impossible task. I reckon, you know, 50, 60 years ago, people would have said it's impossible to get free contraception. It's just not going to happen - probably - maybe 100 years ago, my timeline's off.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah, I'm like, what year is it now?
Gabby Edlin
But, you know, I think people even in the UK, you know, would have said, this is impossible. You know, people would have said, free health care's impossible. So, yeah, I feel highly optimistic about it. And it's just about carrying on pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to chat about, like improving, like menstruation rights, and also kind of like, what comes up with Bloody Good Period in terms of like, trans and non binary and queer people who menstruate? Because I remember, there was a campaign that you did recently. And by recently, I'm like, it might be a few months ago, because I don't understand time anymore. But I remember, kind of like when you were asking, like. friends of the charity to support the campaign and like post about it, it was very much about like drowning the anti trans voices that you knew kind of like had a vendetta against BGP because you are trans inclusive? And so like, yeah, how has that affected your work? And like, yeah, because that that was wild to me. I was just like, oh, like, yeah, we all need to like be louder than them.
Gabby Edlin
Yes. Yes, that's right. That's because we had a video come out that a company had made for us. And when they showed us the video it wasn't in our control, the video, it was made already, and they offered it to us. And it was all cis women in the video. And we said can you put - you need to put a non binary person, a trans man in here, because we are an inclusive charity, and that's what we stand for. And so we turned the video away. They said, "We can't do it. Sorry." And then lo and behold, they came back and said they could and so we had this amazing video that was like a music video that has a trans man bleeding in it. Yeah, it is. It's, it's - it's - how do I describe it - it's really disappointing, I think is the thing that is first, you know, the fact that we have to spend charity resources on reminding people that people exist and that they have rights and that they are entitled to be part of this movement. But I would say that the absolute majority of the people who support us, support us and support inclusivity, but it's been a learning curve. Like when I first set up BGP, I had - I think I'd only written you know, "We support asylum seeking women." And I think it was only like a couple- a month or so where somebody messaged me on Instagram and said like, "Can you be trans inclusive?" And I didn't even know - I hadn't even thought about it. Like I just, it hadn't even been on my radar. Obviously, like I would have said I support trans people and, you know, I want them to feel included. But I wouldn't have realised the wording would affect that and so straight away, we basically put it into, like BGP law, that we would always be inclusive and that we would always make sure that everyone was included. But, you know, the backlash has been sometimes, like, quite scary. You know, I know that, you know, people who don't believe that trans people deserve rights use other sort of befuddling tactics to try and make people feel that inclusion is bad. You know, they phrase it as like, "Why are you not supporting women? You can't even say the word women. God, you know, what's going on that you're so afraid of women?" It's just like, it's just not true. Like, it's just, it's, it's just laughably not true. Of course, we talk about women, but women are people. And I don't know when that got suddenly, like, decided that women weren't people.
Hannah Witton
I find it so backwards as well, because I feel like a lot of the things that like, anti trans people, and like terfs especially, are doing is like, like you said, they're kind of going, women first and then like, not acknowledging that women are people when actually I'm like, but a lot of the work that feminism did was was making people acknowledge that women are people. And that also a lot of the work that feminism did was about kind of like, separating, like, women's potential and like the way that they're treated from their biology. And now you're suddenly bringing it all back to biology? I'm like, make it make sense, please!
Gabby Edlin
I mean, this is like the strapline for like, anti trans, like, parties. - and I say "parties", they're not even a movement, they're just, they're a group of sad people - is "make it make sense." It doesn't make sense.
Hannah Witton
It doesn't make sense.
Gabby Edlin
Stop trying to make it happen. It's not going to happen. So yeah, so it's, yeah, it can be quite distressing, you know, getting targeted like that, but I don't think it's anything that is anything worse than what trans people actually experience so I feel that it's my job as a cis woman to stand up for that and to, and to sort of at least sort of shield some of the blow. But yeah, it's just - it's silly. And it's unimportant work. And to do it in the name of feminism, I find shameful to be honest. Because there are so many people working so hard to support the rights of women and anyone who bleed and anyone who has a womb that - and anyone who doesn't and doesn't have - isn't a woman and doesn't have a womb. And yeah, I find them to be a bit of an embarrassment really more than anything, it's just a bit cringe. And luckily we don't spend that much time on them at all like they're unimportant to us.
Hannah Witton
No, fair enough, you've like - we've got our priorities, like we know, like, who we're helping and why. And, yeah.
Gabby Edlin
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
To kind of like shift gears a bit I wanted to talk about being Jewish.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah!
Hannah Witton
Because we are both Mancunian Jews. And I'm curious about like, what it's been like navigating the activist and left wing charity space as a Jewish person in the UK.
Gabby Edlin
Yes, it's been a bit of a nightmare actually.
Hannah Witton
Oh god. Oh no.
Gabby Edlin
It's been horrible. Absolutely horrible. It's - it's something that I only really began to understand in the past few years. For me growing up in a left wing, Jewish organisation or community. I thought that all left wing people were like us. You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh my god, no, I feel the same. Like I was like in my little left wing Jewish bubble. Yeah.
Gabby Edlin
It's just - it's just part of like supporting Jews is just the same as supporting any other minority community. Like, that's just - that's just what I thought. And it just started to sort of become quite like stark and clear around the time of when the Labour Party started having accusations levelled at them about allowing antisemitism to continue in their party. And I was, like, shocked, to be honest, to see people who I had previously aligned with, worked with, liked, supported basically gaslighting an entire community, you know, and a community, my community, our community who are so diverse and so differing in opinion, but yet like coming together on this one thing, you know, and people just straight out the gate just gaslighting and saying this isn't happening. You making this up. And I think, you know, I don't know if it's the same for you, but like, as a Jewish person, like, I've experienced antisemitism all my life, like I know what it looks like. You know, sometimes it's quite confusing and sometimes it's not until an hour later where you're like, whoa, you know, what was that, but I know what it sounds like and I know what it looks like, and I think everybody else does. And such a huge proportion of British Jews are from families who have fled here basically as refugees, as asylum seekers, as people fleeing hate, you know, from the Middle East, from Eastern Europe, from Germany, and from whatever other country that they have been chucked out from. You know, we are really sensitive to it. Because we had to be. And you know, it's been passed down in our generations to know what it looks like really, not to be - and I don't even think it's that we've become overly sensitive to it, if that's even a thing. I think we just know. And so it was, it was absolutely horrible. And it continues to be difficult. And, you know, I will speak up on it when I feel I sort of have like the energy and resources to it, but really, like, I found it drains me more than anything, anything else. And particularly the left wing antisemitism because the right wing - everybody knows about, right? Like everybody's used to. Everybody knows white supremacist hate us, like, everybody knows that.
Hannah Witton
I think a lot of people do forget that, though.
Gabby Edlin
Sure, that's probably true, actually. It's because it's so accepted.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that's something that I often forget as well, because I don't think I've experienced like antisemitism in the same way you have. I think I was very shielded from it as a kid because my mum's side is Jewish, but my dad's isn't. I don't like quote, unquote, like, "look" very Jewish. And, like, whilst I did have a Jewish community growing up, I was still quite a bit distanced from that. But yeah, it did take like, kind of like learning a bit more about it in probably like the last year or so, of being like, "Oh yeah, all of these like white supremacists and racists, like, they're fine with me as long as they don't know that I'm Jewish." Yeah, exactly. Like, and that that was a real, like, moment of like, switching of like, like, "Oh, shit, like, you know, like, as long as I pass, I'm safe." Yeah. But actually, like, you never know, like, when you could gonna be unsafe.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah, exactly. The same for me, it's really sort of, I've just learned more and more about it in the past. I think it's probably like, two, three years, if that. But yeah, I mean, I have three sisters and one is blonde. And she's never really had - she's sort of talked about, she's not really noticed it as much. Whereas I, again, quote unquote, "look very Jewish". I'm told, you know, more often than not, "You look very Jewish." Whether that's a compliment or an insult, it kind of doesn't really matter. Or it's, it's occasionally just, you know, neutral, which is fine.
Hannah Witton
It's one of those ones where like, I'll accept it from other Jews.
Gabby Edlin
Oh, 100%, because then it's not an insult. Well, unless they're trying to be rude. I've also had like, you know, what's like philosemitism, where it's like people who are like weirdly obsessed with Jews. And they'll be like, "You're Jewish? Oh, I love Jews. Oh, you look so Jewish. Look at your face." You know, and like, it's, it's really and I don't like - kind
Hannah Witton
Kind of like that exoticism, like fetishization, kind of.
Gabby Edlin
Totally. The amount of the amount of people who've asked me, "Where are you from? Where are you really from?" is, you know, whatever. But yeah, it's - yeah, I think it has to do with like how visibly Jewish one is, as well, how much you sort of absorb maybe too. But I think there's, there's also, you know, there's arguably just as much trauma in feeling that you have passed in that way, which is, I think, quite a difficult thing to experience as well, because what does that even mean, "to pass"? You know, why do we have to say that, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. Kind of, like on a more positive note, what does like Jewish joy look like for you? Because you also, like, got married recently, and it was, like, from the photos and stuff you had a very, like, Jewish wedding, it seemed. Yeah.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah. But it's so important to me, Jewish joy, because that's something that - I mean, I do therapy, I have therapy, and something that I've learned a lot is like, you can't just live your life talking about antisemitism, working through the antisemitism, like you have to do it through joy. Like there's no other choice. I mean, that's what people say about activism all the time, isn't it? Mikaela Loach, the activist, wrote a beautiful thing about it. She was quoting Rebecca Solnit talking about, like, you know, joy isn't - joy isn't sort of separate from activism. It's the very thing that fuels it. And so it's crucial. So yeah, so Jewish joy is so important to me. And yeah, we just got married now nearly two weeks ago, which feels like forever ago, and my partner or my husband now is - he's half Jewish and he's half Muslim. And on his Muslim side, he's Iranian. And he's grown up very Iranian, you know, all of the culture - as strongly as I've grown up Jewish, he's grown up Iranian, he speaks Farsi, you know, we've just celebrated Iranian New Year. And so we wanted to really like blend the two traditions.
Hannah Witton
Cool.
Gabby Edlin
Which was amazing. And it was just, there was just something huge - It just felt so important about having this Jewish Iranian joyful day. You know, because I can't speak for his family, but like, they didn't come here easily to the UK either, you know, so I think it's really important to be able to celebrate the things that are not, you know, non-religious white British culture, in a world that really only wants you to celebrate that, basically. Wants you to have Christmas and Easter actually. So yeah, but it's yeah, it looks like all different things for me. Like a lot of the time it's food.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. 100% Yeah.
Gabby Edlin
I lived in South London for a bit and just couldn't access bagels in the same way. You know, the proper bagels. And I was like, I didn't want to tell anyone, but I was like, I was finding this hard.
Hannah Witton
"It's a really hard time for me right now."
Gabby Edlin
And then when I moved back North London, like I put on two stone because I was just - I would live next to a Jewish bakery, which was the best decision of my life.
Hannah Witton
Yum.
Gabby Edlin
But yeah, it really looks like food for me and like, bringing things back in like small ways. Like, for me, like it's a lot of like, learning as much Yiddish as I can and using Yiddish like where possible and having like a really great ownership over that almost, because my parents - well, especially my mom's side, like her grandparents just spoke Yiddish. And so my mum used to use Yiddish words with us all the time and I was so embarrassed when I was little. I was like, "English, mum, you know, use English words." Yes. And now I can look back and I'm like, God, no, like she was working really hard to like keep that tradition and keep that like family history. So yeah, it looks like that.
Hannah Witton
My sister and my dad are trying to make a case for my mom's like grandma name to be bubba.
Gabby Edlin
Is she not yet? Is she grandma?
Hannah Witton
I think she wants to be grandma Debs.
Gabby Edlin
Oh wait, she's not a grandma yet, is this her first grandchild?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. So it's quite funny. We'll just - we'll see what what the kid starts to call her and be like, that's your name.
Gabby Edlin
We call my grandparents mama and papa because my grandma was so upper middle class reaching, like she wanted - like that was what she wanted to be her whole life. She really wanted to be like upper middle class, whatever that meant.
Hannah Witton
Aspirational.
Gabby Edlin
Aspirational. That's it. And so she tried to get my sister to call her grandmama.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow. I only know that from Anastasia, the good cartoon. "Grandmama!"
Gabby Edlin
Yeah, she probably read that, maybe, or something? I mean, it wasn't out yet. Ridiculous. I like bubba, or there's my mum used to say bobba, because she's Scottish or bubby.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice. And I kind of wanted to combine the Jewishness and the periods by asking about like, are there any Jewish traditions or like teachings around menstruation? And are there ones that you like or dislike?
Gabby Edlin
It's so interesting, right? Because the rabbi that we had for our wedding, I met her at a stone setting. My husband's grandma's stone setting, which is for anyone who doesn't know in the Jewish tradition within a year - you don't put the gravestone down at the funeral, you do that within a year and then you come back and honour the person who's died. And we went to his grandma's stone setting and there was this amazing female rabbi there who was just, you know, she sang and it was lovely. And I grew up in quite like, I don't know if it was the same where you were, but it was quite like a traditional Orthodox Jewish community. Like the general nature of it was like you - I'd only ever seen a male rabbi basically.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, same.
Gabby Edlin
And then I came to London and I was like, oh, it doesn't have to be like this. Anyway, so we met her. And then like, we hadn't even decided we were getting married yet, but I messaged her, and I was like -
Gabby Edlin
"When we get married, will you marry us?" And she was like, "Yeah!" And then it turned out that she had done her rabbinical dissertation on menstrual purity, which I was like, this is fascinating, like, and obviously, I completely meant to be. Bashert, as we say in Hebrew. And so there's a lot of - surprisingly a lot of like, period-related learning around getting married. Because there's the mikvah, which is the sort of - what'd you call it. It's almost like a mini pool, like a plunge pool.
Hannah Witton
"Will you marry me?"
Hannah Witton
This is something that I like literally only learned about existing this year.
Gabby Edlin
Really?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Gabby Edlin
Ah, yeah, so interesting. And like the traditional learning of it is that a woman would go into the mikvah before she gets married, and then before every period, or after every period, I can't remember, to purify herself, basically, to make herself pure. And so there's been so much like, traditional and orthodox belief in me that like having your period makes you impure. And I mean, so many people sort of identify with that and really sort of see like the Jewish tradition as like hating periods and hating women and hating anyone with a womb. And actually, the more I've spoken to Debbie about it, the more she talks about how like we're all impure, as human beings, actually, and anybody can use the mikvah, and anyone can make themselves pure for a moment. And it's not really to do with bleeding or anything like that. It's just to do with human existence.
Hannah Witton
Just like a very secular spar experience thing. You come out of it just like feeling more pure.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah, exactly. Like, just quick. But yeah, it's really interesting. And it's really, it's fascinating to see how like, actually, periods have been talked about as like, almost like, like a sexual aid in marriages. So if you, if you keep yourself separate during menstruation, then when you get back together, you can't wait to see each other and you can't wait to be together again. Which I was like, "Okay, fine, but I need a huge amount of attention during my period. So that doesn't work for me."
Hannah Witton
I guess, yeah. That feels like a slight positive twist on there on the like, you're too like dirty to be around on your period, but like -
Gabby Edlin
Exactly. And I mean, it's not surprising because when you have like a female rabbi, who then gets to reinterpret, or you know - because all of like, our Jewish learning is reinterpretations and reinterpretations, that's what, you know, that's what it is, is that, you know, you then start to get people who are starting to investigate actually did that mean that or was that a very sexist community, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, who decided that it would be a great way to, you know, tell women to do certain things.
Hannah Witton
Just like, "I know, let's add this into the translation."
Gabby Edlin
"Let's just say it means that and no one will say anything." But yes, so it's been really interesting. But it's also like - I really found something that I talked to one of my teammates about who's also Jewish, around the time of antisemitism growing and especially around the time of like what was happening in like Israel and Palestine, was that it felt really taboo to be Jewish. And that you almost couldn't talk about the fact that you were Jewish, because I mean, it wasn't even just at flare ups. It's basically like, whenever anyone brings up Palestine, you're expected for some reason as a Jew to explain government policy and why you as a British Jew, have decided to implement a foreign country's policy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, this is something that I've only been able to, like put to words in the last year of like - of I - and it wasn't something I realised I was doing, which was like, being an apologist.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And feeling like I had to kind of like footnote every time I mentioned that I was Jewish. And have like a statement ready. And then - and then I remember reading in a book being like the fact that you feel like you have to have a statement ready about Israel at any time you mention your Jewish is, like, an experience of antisemitism.
Gabby Edlin
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
And I was like, oh.
Gabby Edlin
Yeah, exactly. And that's not to say that, like, as British Jews we shouldn't have the right to, you know, demand certain things from the government and demand better treatment and demand, you know, changes and I think that is - I mean, I don't think it's everyone's but I think we can feel or should feel that it's our responsibility to influence foreign policy in the way that every other individual can do, you know. Not in a way that we've all got like a red phone in our houses that goes through to like Netanyahu or something which I really think people think. Like it - there's, I mean, it's just pure antisemitism again, but I think people really think we all know each other. Like, and I'm like sure there's not that many of us, but there's quite a lot of people like, and we're spread all over the world. Like, it's - yeah, there's just so much of this, like, wild belief that goes into it. And yeah, I felt for quite some time, I was like, this feels - okay, now I understand why periods are just so important to me, because I feel like I am taboo. Like, I feel like I am - I should be ashamed of, like, who I am because of some group of men's decisions 1000s of miles away, basically. Yeah, and people will get you to defend it. And I've just stopped. I now just I refuse to engage. Because I don't think that anybody would ask anyone from another country to defend somewhere they're even from, let alone not - where they're not from? So yeah, it's wild.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, for sure. And we've got some questions from people on Instagram for you. And somebody actually asked about the mikvah - about is it something that you do? And also, if it is something that you do, is it ever difficult to find the time to go? As a 21st century Jew!
Gabby Edlin
Yeah! As a very busy Jew. I've only been once. I went before I got married. And I -because we were working with this amazing Rabbi Debbie. It felt like a really whole-making - wholesome, I don't know - and spiritual experience. We did it in a really lovely way. And she read like my favourite poem to me while I was like in the water, and we thought about past, present, and future selves and all of that. And it was gorgeous. And I loved it. I mean, I live a five minute walk from there, just completely coincidentally, so it's easy for me. But yeah, I think I mean, I think like, anything that feels important to you can feel like is there time in the day to do it, basically. But like, I think that can just be another aspect of your own self care. Like, if it feels like something you want to do, like, don't put it off. Like, these places are not amazingly funded, like you never know, like, where it's going to go, or whether you would suddenly decide that you can't do it, or whether, you know, you wouldn't be able to access it in the future. So I would say to somebody, like if they thought about like, it just feels like I'm too busy, like, there's always time that you can make for it, you know, to do something like this. And it was it was a really amazing experience. I don't know if I'll continue going. I don't know if it's for me, but I'm definitely going to think about it. But yeah, it was really - it was a really interesting and lovely thing to experience basically.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that. Somebody asked: fellow Jew sex nerd here. How was your sex ed in Jewish spaces? And they've actually said that this is for for both of us. But I'll just say that I didn't kind of like have any sex education in Jewish spaces. I actually had, especially at college, I went to a Catholic college - so it was in Catholic spaces. But did you go to a Jewish school?
Gabby Edlin
No, no, I didn't. But I had to go to cheder, which was like primary school -
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, I went to cheder!
Gabby Edlin
Oh god, did you enjoy it?
Hannah Witton
I remember really enjoying it but then -
Gabby Edlin
Everybody seemed to love it except me.
Hannah Witton
Oh no! But I stopped going when I was like, 12.
Gabby Edlin
Okay, same.
Hannah Witton
Because I didn't want to do a bat mitzvah and I was just like, I'm out.
Gabby Edlin
Oh god, I had to do a bat mitzvah, it wasn't really a choice. I mean, it was fine. But yeah, did we have any sex ed? I think as far as I remember that that is where I learned that basically women were impure and impure in the - not the way that Rabbi Debbie talks about it, but the dirty way. You know, I went to a - I was a part of very orthodox -and just because that's all there was where I lived. And I feel like it was just all around like marriage. Basically. This is what happens when you get married, basically, rather than - there was no sort of like, information about sex for pleasure. But then, you know, I then remember learning later about - when I was at a Jewish youth movement - about which was much more liberal - was that actually I, like, was delighted to learn that like in a marriage, like, if you're in a heterosexual marriage, I mean, I assume it's the same in any marriage, but like the man's job and it's a mitzvah, it's a deed of his that he has to do, is to sexually satisfy a woman. So like I was like, great, okay, cool.
Hannah Witton
"Be a good Jew and satisfy your wife."
Gabby Edlin
Exactly, more orgasms. So yeah, so I mean, that yeah, I went to like, I didn't go to religious schools growing up, and my sex ed was non existent. Like, everything I learned I learned from books, basically, you know, body book, followed by one of those teenage books, followed by I don't know, like, More magazine or something as well, which is - like, had a lot of information. But yeah, really very, very little.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Fair enough.
Gabby Edlin
I think it's so - I think it's so important. I mean, who am I telling? "Hannah, did you know sex ed's important?"
Hannah Witton
Sex education is important. You heard it here first. So someone asked, they said: my period is extra annoying, because my ADHD symptoms increase. Any advice?
Gabby Edlin
So gosh, right. So this isn't something I'd heard before in terms of ADHD. But I've certainly heard of it in terms of if someone has like premenstrual dysphoric disorder, where any sort of difficult mental health symptoms can really increase around that time and become quite distressing. But I think there's just, you know, I haven't heard any conversation about this around ADHD. I would definitely try and talk to a specialist, or to a doctor. And maybe a few doctors, if the first ones don't - if it doesn't sort of yield any like results, because I think it's just completely, you know, we were saying before, we're talking about this, it's just completely underfunded, under researched. But what I would really very much say is, don't let anybody sort of gaslight you into not trusting your body. Because I think we are as menstruators, particularly hyperaware of what's happening, especially if you're tracking your symptoms, especially if you're sort of looking at what's going on, and it sounds like this person is tracking and you know, because they -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like, "I've noticed a pattern."
Gabby Edlin
You know, keep a diary, I think or even a spreadsheet if you're into spreadsheets. Yeah, which I certainly am. And take that to your doctor, take that to the specialist and see, you know, if there's anything that can be sort of used to help it really, you know, in terms of just what can you do to manage it? Is there any particular self care that you can do before your period to try and manage anything that feels more difficult, I would say.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and yeah, you're so right, it is so like, underfunded and under researched. And it makes me think about how like often we are relying on kind of like really knowing our own bodies, when that can be really, really difficult in in a world that doesn't like, encourage us to actually pay attention to our bodies. And then it's also making me think about how like, anecdotally, a lot of people are saying that like if they've gotten COVID that's impacted their period, or their menstrual cycle, or even like, like, from having one of the vaccines, it also like, changed their periods slightly, maybe just like the one after or something. And I think it'll be interesting to see if we get anything official about that. Or if we're just going to be constantly relying on like anecdotally just talking to each other.
Gabby Edlin
Somewhere that's really useful to look at that kind of thing is Menstrual Matters. So Sally King writes some really good stuff about that and I'm pretty sure she's written about the vaccine. And how actually, like, we probably - I think it was, I think - Sally might correct me - but like, it has basically affected our immune systems, which is what the vaccine is supposed to do. And that's why our periods are affected. But also like, I think, I feel like we told this when we're younger, and then nobody really believes it. But stress has the most enormous impact. And we are all really, really stressed. Like, you know, from the past few years like we're all mega, mega stressed. My period got completely messed up from being in lockdown, basically. And I think just the stresses it entails. So listen to that as well and to sort of - I mean, what I'm gonna do, tell you not to be stressed? But like find ways to like -
Hannah Witton
"Don't be stressed!"
Gabby Edlin
"Just don't be stressed, guys!" Like a surprising amount of people say that. You know, find ways to sort of bring down stress wherever you can, can maybe help bring your period to more regular, but yeah, it's stressful in itself, that you just feel like you can't have the answers that you deserve about your own body. And we're just constantly told "You're fine, you're fine. You're fine." You know. Until we're not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. Well, Gabby, thank you so much. This has been so fun to chat with you.
Gabby Edlin
Same, I've loved it!
Hannah Witton
Yeah! Where can people find you online and also help and support Bloody Good Period?
Gabby Edlin
So the best place to support Bloody Good Period is probably going via our Instagram which is just @bloodygoodperiod. That'll take you to our website and to everything else that we do. And then to find me I'm @gabbyedlin, which is G A B B Y E D L I N on Instagram and that's about all the social media that I have. I'm not much fun there either. But yeah, that's me and BGP, where we are.
Hannah Witton
Nice. Yeah, thank you so much again, and thank you all for listening! Bye!
Gabby Edlin
Bye!