Decolonising Sexuality, LGBTQ+ Rights in Kenya and Polyamory with Kaz Lucas | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I am joined by Kaz Lucas. Kaz is a kink positive and queer Kenyan sex educator. Kaz hosts the brilliant sex positive podcast of The Spread, which is all about teaching and answering questions from Kenyans about sex, sexuality, gender, and relationships. Kaz is also a TED Fellow, and created a talk on sex education and consent. And if that isn't enough, Kaz is also a musical artist and an established leader in the Kenyan arts and culture ecosystem.
I really wanted to get Kaz on the podcast to talk all about her sex education work in Kenya, and what she means by decolonizing sexuality. We spoke about why Kaz decided to create The Spread podcast, and her mission of helping fellow Kenyans be more open in discovering their sexuality. She also spoke about how the criminalization of homosexuality is the hangover of colonial rule, and why religion is the root of sexual taboo and stigma in Kenya today. Kaz talked about how Kenyan culture was much more open towards gender and sexuality before colonisation, and why she wants to remind people of his history to progress Kenyan society. She explained how Kenya is still a polygamous country, and why she thinks polyamory is a more modern day and ethical practice. Kaz also shared some of her own personal experiences of polyamory, and why it's not fun, and takes a huge amount of work and lots of difficult communication. I really enjoyed this chat because Kaz shared some really interesting thoughts on Kenyan history of sexuality, and I also enjoyed how frank and honest she was about the complexities of being polyamorous.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk, and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @DoingItPodcast. If you liked this episode, please leave us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify, it is really, really appreciated. I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. So here is Kaz Lucas.
Welcome to the podcast Kaz, I'm really excited to chat with you. Big fan of your work and everything, and especially your outfit in your TED talk.
Kaz Lucas
Thank you. I appreciate that very much. It was a very well thought out outfit.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, was it kind of like connected to the theme of the talk in any way?
Kaz Lucas
Pretty much, yes.
Hannah Witton
Oh, tell me.
Kaz Lucas
I will. So it was actually an ode to a Kenyan author by the name of Binyavanga Wainaina, who died a few years ago. And he had worn a purple jacket, with a black shirt, and a pink tutu, to a TED talk that he gave when he was talking about being an openly gay man in Kenya. And so I had the suit made as an ode to Binyavanga Wainaina, so the pants sort of like resembled his tutu, and the jacket, the purple jacket. And then I had a band around my arm that said that has the hashtag repeal 162, which is the penal code that criminalises same sex relationships in Kenya. So it's like, you know, activism fashion, so to speak.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Kaz Lucas
But the guy who designed the outfit is a great designer. So
Hannah Witton
Kenyan as well?
Kaz Lucas
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Are same sex relationships still criminalised in Kenya?
Kaz Lucas
Yes, unfortunately.
Hannah Witton
You recently came out as queer, or I don't know how recent that was actually.
Kaz Lucas
I have been out for a while.
Hannah Witton
A while now. But like how, like, how is that, being like an openly queer person in a country that criminalises same sex relationships?
Kaz Lucas
There's a lot of fear around just daily things like living. Like, you know, being in cabs, or taking an Uber with my partner, or showing up at events. I'm very, I'm an activist as well, so I'm very openly queer in the way that I speak, the way that I present myself, the way that I, I'm constantly like, you know, waving the rainbow flag, like at any opportunity. So, you know, it does come with a little bit of with a fear, I would say a little bit, it does come with fear that unfortunately I've had to, and so have many other queer people, had to get used to living with this kind of fear and understanding that this is not something that is supposed, it's not normal, it's not natural to be living in constant anxiety and fear that your life is in danger
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and that constant hyper vigilance as well
Kaz Lucas
Yes. And not only is it just like it's illegal and you're going to be jailed or whatever. It's just like also just like societally, it's so frowned upon. So you're in more fear of like being accosted in the streets by a bunch of people, or something that is very prevalent on the African continent is, it's no longer the term, it's no longer politically correct to call it this and can't remember what the political term is. But it's what it was before was corrective rape.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay, yeah.
Kaz Lucas
Like femme presenting, or lesbians or, you know, just like butch type looking femmes always are the ones who are in higher, who are, what's the phrase?
Hannah Witton
Are at a higher risk.
Kaz Lucas
Yes, at a higher risk. So these things are, but it's also constantly at the back of my mind every time I go into public spaces, like where there's a lot of people, like if I go into the CBD, like, it's just you know, that yeah, like you said, the hyper vigilance is just no bueno.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What is kind of like happening in terms of like, the activism around that in Kenya? Like, do you feel hopeful as well? Like is, are there things that are kind of happening in order to to repeal that?
Kaz Lucas
Absolutely. There is a lot of work that is happening on the ground, and people trying to repeal that penal code, so that it also just works in tandem with the Constitution because the Constitution states that all human rights are valid, but then that penal code states that same sex relationships aren't allowed
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of hypocrisy in like, written constitution.
Kaz Lucas
Exactly. So they're, you know, there's a lot of people on the ground who are doing the work to, to, to change this. I'm one of the people for sure, in whatever way that is available to me as an activist to sort of push the cause. Even with the work that I do, it's like educating people on the most basic things like queer rights are human rights, like, leave your religion at the door and just think about a human being.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Is, erm, kind of like socially because obviously, you've got like the political side of things of like trying to change the law. But in terms of like, socially, you said, it is still seen as quite taboo. But is that changing? Like are you see kind of like more acceptance? Like, maybe with younger people as well?
Kaz Lucas
Absolutely. The younger generation are the new teachers to be honest. Like Gen Z folk are educating everybody, and I am here for it. I love it.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my god, same, yeah
Kaz Lucas
They're keeping people on the edge of their seats, like when it comes to just everything progressive. So socially, yes, there's a lot of, a lot more acceptance, people are definitely opening up their minds to just different lifestyles, different people, and begin to understand that there is diversity, like, can we talk about that, there are a diverse group of people in this world, not everybody is like you. And that's that's the rhetoric I'm trying to push. Like, not everybody is like you, like you can't expect a world of over 8 billion people and every single person to be like you, you know, it's
Hannah Witton
That would be so boring!
Kaz Lucas
Wouldn't it! Oh, my God. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I mean I get annoyed with myself at the best of times
Kaz Lucas
Although if everyone was like me it wouldn't be that boring
Hannah Witton
I just went immediately to like self deprecation being like, I wouldn't want more me, and you're like more me's please.
Kaz Lucas
Yes. Actually on ask a question we were doing this, would you rather, we have a would you rather Wednesday's on my The Spread page on Instagram. And one of the questions was, would you rather date somebody that was similar to you, or would you rather date somebody that was a complete opposite of you? What's yours?
Hannah Witton
My partner is very opposite to me. So I guess that?
Kaz Lucas
Yeah
Hannah Witton
But there are some things that would be deal breakers if it was two opposite, but but definitely different?
Kaz Lucas
Fundamentals, right
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the values kind of thing, there needs to be like, a significant amount of overlap there. But yeah, I think it would be boring if it were too similar. And also, I don't know about you, but I also find that like, I prefer having friends who are more similar to me. And then I kind of like fulfil that need of having people who are like my people as like, platonic friendships. And then having my partner be different to me is nice. I don't know. What about you? What was your answer.
Kaz Lucas
That's interesting. Mine's similar
Hannah Witton
Really
Kaz Lucas
Yeah, yeah, I think I really want somebody who is like me, in many ways, you know, who likes the same things as me. Contrary to popular belief, I'm an introvert. So I want somebody wants to stay home with me, I don't want somebody who I'm just going to have to like wake up at three o'clock in the morning to open the door for them. And then like coming in drunkenly in a drunken stupor and just that, no. I want somebody who wants to stay home and watch really shit movies, and who's happy to eat my food. Like I don't enjoy eating other people's cooking, so I love to cook. And when somebody likes to cook, for example,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, someone to feed. Yeah. Nice, nice. Tell, tell us a bit about The Spread then, your podcast. Like how like, what is it? What kind of things do you talk about on there? How did it, why was it something that you wanted to do?
Kaz Lucas
So The Spread podcast started in 2016 and it was, the truth of the matter was, it was like a podcast where I had an opportunity to sit with a girlfriend and talk about our different sexual experiences. Like the idea was that we would be able to reach people who would be able to be more open about their sexuality without feeling shame. We needed to have this platform, and this space, because her and I were often getting asked so many questions about sex and sexuality, because we were always very open in that sense. So it was like, why don't we just set up something where we destigmatise sexual relationships of different kinds and, and that's what we did. So that's how it started. And then it kind of became this like, whirlwind of people just wanting to know more about different aspects of sexuality, like even far beyond our lived experiences. So that took me back to the books. I went and did a couple of courses on sexuality, which is why I often say that I'm a certified sex educator. And so now I'm able to have discussions with people about reproductive health, I'm able to have conversations about BDSM and the kink community, able to have conversations with people about different sexualities, gender, gender expression, what the difference between all those things are. And just have a platform where I can explain to people the different, you know, just educating and creating awareness around the different kinds of lifestyle, without there being so much prejudice or judgement towards different lifestyles. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That sounds very similar. It's like what we do here. It's just kind of like, being curious about all sorts of different experiences and things without without that judgement, thanks very much.
Kaz Lucas
Yes. And you know, guess what, you're doing it.
Hannah Witton
Very nice. Very nice. Love that. Like, how did you like come to start that podcast then? Was like sex and sexuality, something that you were always kind of curious about and interested in? And then like, how, how, for you, did it then become something that it's something that you do for work, and you kind of become this like, spokesperson and sex educator.
Kaz Lucas
So funny, when I was a kid, I've always been really fascinated by sex. Always. When I was a kid I, this is actually a really funny story. I thought that I wanted to be a prostitute because
Hannah Witton
Wow
Kaz Lucas
Yeah, in my head I thought that prostitution meant that I could get to dress up really sexy, and then go to the club, and then just dance with different men. I thought it was just like, grinding up on different men. That was my definition. I was like, I want to be as a kid, I thought that was just a thing that's just, I won't tell anybody but when I grow up, I want to be a prostitute. And then the more like, I've always been really fascinated by sex. So though, when I grew up, I thought, because so many people in high school used to come to me and ask questions about sexuality, just because I'd always been like a really open person and spoke about everything. And some stuff was definitely made up. You know, all of these younger girls would come up to me and ask questions about their relationships, and so on and so forth. And then I thought, hey, maybe I want to become a sex therapist, and I thought that that was an avenue that I wanted to follow. So my entire life I've always wanted to do something related with related to sex and sexuality and sensuality without even knowing where to point, where do I point that needle? And, you know, sex education just came, it was perfect. I'm like, and I can use my media background and my entertainment to to educate people. So I don't have to do anything like that I don't want to which is like going into a classroom. I don't mind now but I'm because I'm so heavily introverted I often don't want to interact with people on one on one as often as like a teacher would. So it's like, how do I best tap into this thing that I want to do and also remain in my house?
Hannah Witton
Oh, my god, I feel that. I feel that on many levels, just like I'm gonna try and make as big an impact as possible, from home.
Kaz Lucas
Yeah, yeah, I love it. I'm here for it
Hannah Witton
I kind of wanted to shift back to what we were talking about before with about like LGBTQ+ people in in Kenya. And I think it's important to acknowledge that like, the criminalization of it is a colonial hangover. Like that is not Kenyan, it's not African
Kaz Lucas
That was actually the British law.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Sorry about that. And I think like a huge part of what you do, and also kind of like, conversations that I've been trying to have as well is about decolonizing sexuality. So I'm curious, what does decolonizing sexuality mean to you?
Kaz Lucas
A lot of our taboos and stigmas around sexuality in Kenya today, are very much based on our laws, and our colonial laws, and also just very heavily based on religion, predominantly Christianity. And, you know, pre colonial times we didn't, we didn't have religion, we had spirituality, we had spiritual and cultural practices, but we didn't have like the Bible and Christianity and that kind of religion. And that's what has come and taken over a lot of our like law making. I mean, when, during the last judgement for the repeal 162 penal code, one of the arguments that the opposing folks were using is that in, they say, but in the Bible, and it's like, we can't use in the Bible when we're creating laws. That's not, it just it makes no sense
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Kaz Lucas
Let's use one book, you know, let's not try to use books, like I'm gonna say, but also in, in in the dictionary. In Will Smith's biography, you know what I mean?
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God, I love the idea of just treating the Bible with the same kind of neutrality is just any book.
Kaz Lucas
Yeah, if you're gonna bring your book, why can't I bring mine? Like, what Will Smith said. No. But God said. Well, Oprah said, you know, yeah.
Hannah Witton
So I know who I'd rather listen to.
Kaz Lucas
Of course! So, a lot of our laws, and a lot of our cultural practices are now based around religion, which was never ours to begin with. So how do we go back to, you know, some of the some of the practices were really beautiful. We did, we did, we were not against gender bending, for example. We were not against like people wearing dresses. Actually, pre colonial times, we didn't even have pants. And now, if a male presenting man or man wears a skirt, suddenly, it defines his entire sexuality. You know, like that two men can love each other. Whereas pre colonial, we had opportunities for men to love each other, to marry each other. In cultural practice today, we still have practices where women marry each other. So just like, you know, there's there's definitely different aspects of our culture that would benefit very much from us ignoring the religious aspects, or the colonial aspects of it, and that's what I mean by decolonizing sexuality.
Hannah Witton
I'm interested if you think there is like a movement, or conversations, that are happening about like, trying to bring back some of those things from like, pre colonial times, because obviously, like this, it's not, there's not anyone alive right now, who was alive then, but have has this information and have these ideas, like been passed down? And like, are there, yeah, is there stuff going on where it's like, this is what is Kenyan culture. This is Kenyan sexuality.
Kaz Lucas
So first of all, there are people that are still alive, a lot of people are still alive.
Hannah Witton
Wait, because -
Kaz Lucas
We have only been independent for 63 years. My parents fought for independence. So we haven't been independent for that long. So the generation of my grandparents, there are people who still we're still alive. People who still have answers and stories to tell about about well, it wasn't pre colonial, it was during the first colonial. Yeah, you're right. People get - you're right, in that, in that sense. We're not necessarily trying to bring anything back. We're trying to explain to this new generation, well, when I say new generation, I mean, my parents generation, we're trying to explain to them that this is how things used to be, because they seem to have forgotten. I don't know why that generation is wrapped in, in the, like the cult version of Christianity, that they don't want to listen to anything or anybody else. So it's not necessarily trying to say you need to bring this back. It's just that prior to the Bible existing, we had this, so it's okay for us to also have this, you know
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's not permanent, like, it's changed before, so it can change again.
Kaz Lucas
And we're constantly evolving and we're constantly changing. But understanding that, that, you know, we have to roll with the punches, we have to change, we can't just be stuck in, in the 60s. And just like, I mean, it's a version of colonialism in itself. The fact that you, we have been we the the divide and conquer is what was used for us to fight against each other in order for like, other people to steal our land. That's what they did, they made us fight against each other, and then from underneath our feet, they stole our land, and they created all these laws that made us hate each other. But then it's like, you know, we don't we don't have to do that anymore. Like we don't we, pre colonial, we loved each other. We created these large villages where people just loved each other and you know, we were always just about generational wealth and all of these conversations. So it's, it's just like, get with the programme. You're sticking to your narrative is not working, it's harmful. There's a lot of people who are my age who are not currently dealing with their mental health issues because of growing up in homes where people were not dealing with their generational trauma. And now we have to like, unpack and unlearn all these things, and just like calm down.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, relax, everyone. Take a big deep breath. So is it, is it right that Kenya is still, by law, a polygamous country?
Kaz Lucas
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So I want to talk about that as well, like in relation to polyamory. And like, first off, can you define like the difference between polygamy and polyamory?
Kaz Lucas
Yes. Polygamy is actually generally the term that is used as, was often used as the umbrella term for non monogamous relationships. But when it's used, it's often referred to as a relationship where a man can have multiple wives. But the actual term for a man having multiple wives is called polygyny.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay.
Kaz Lucas
So polygamy is has always been the umbrella term for non monogamous relationships. Polygyny is where a man, more often than not, a cis, heterosexual, man has multiple wives, that for the most part are either are either heterosexual or cisgendered heterosexual or possibly bisexual. But then the conversation around polygyny is that those women that are his wives are not allowed to have other partners. He's the he's the main partner in that relationship.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Kaz Lucas
So in Kenya, polygamy is practised in that sense. A man has multiple wives, and his wives are not allowed to have any other partners or any other marriages. They're just married to one man. Polyamory, on the other hand, is the practice of loving multiple people. So it's not, it's not restricted to just hetero normativity. It's queer relationships and it's just it really is about having multiple loves. That's that's the difference. And I feel like polyamory is definitely a more modern day, ethical, for the most part, ethical practice of what polygamy has always been. In Kenya, a man can marry his - I think he can marry multiple wives without any of his wives knowing.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Kaz Lucas
Like, he doen't have to tell his first wife that he's marrying a second wife. I'm not sure if that's changed, but I vaguely remember that being the case.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, at some point, well, what was kind of like the general cultural attitudes towards polyamory then, or even still towards polygamy? Like, is that still something that is like culturally accepted, especially like, younger generations as well? Or is it seen as old fashioned?
Kaz Lucas
Not so much socially. It is an old fashioned thing. It's like my grandfather had multiple wives. That's the last generation that was polygamous. After that, there's a lot of non monogamy, it's not ethical. So men have multiple wives and usually the wives and the children come out of the woodworks when the man dies. And everybody's like, oh, we've come to collect our portion of land
Hannah Witton
Oh right. Like, here's the secret second family, kind of vibes.
Kaz Lucas
Exactly. So there's a lot of unethical practices that happen. It's a very don't ask, don't tell situation with, with the polyness of what's happening in most Kenyan relationships. So it's unethical, it's, it's horrible. It's disgusting. When people are not speaking about their multiple partnerships, it means that people are not speaking about their sexual practices, which means people are not speaking about safety. So you're putting so many different people in danger. It's just so terrible.
Hannah Witton
It's an interesting one to me, because it's clearly something that and like, even here in the UK, like, you know, you've got people who, who cheat, right? And it's kind of like, culturally accepted that people will, like, cheat, and that's the thing that sometimes happens, but it's not culturally acceptable. But then also, there's like, a huge stigma around, like, ethically non-monogamous relationships, and like ethical polyamory, and it's like, which is it?
Kaz Lucas
It's like people frown upon the ethical, non monogamous relationships and would rather be in a situation where it's don't ask, don't tell
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Wow.
Kaz Lucas
Make it make sense
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is baffling to me sometimes, but it's like that kind of situation of, of the like, you know, behind closed doors, oh well this happens, and you know, you're just you don't ask any questions, you just kind of like, accept that your partner is probably cheating on you, or like, has a second family or whatever it is. But then people who are like openly polyamorous are treated like really suspiciously, like what you're doing? And like, why and like, like,
Kaz Lucas
Just say you want to fuck multiple people
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just all of these like stereotypes as well. How is that, like trying to like navigate, polyamorous and like ethically non monogamous relationships in Kenya?
Kaz Lucas
I think a lot of people have been wanting to get into the polyamorous space honestly, the way I see it. But I feel like still there's a lot of struggle around it because polyamory is so difficult. And for anybody to want to just make their lives a little bit more difficult. You know, it's a tough one. It's a tough one if you
Hannah Witton
Do you mean like logistically?
Kaz Lucas
Yeah, like the Google Calendar. I mean, just you know, the amount of communication that is required in non monogamy, in ethical non monogamy, is insane. And already people are not talking in, in monogamous relationships. People are barely having conversations. And not you want to have, like, insane conversations about jealousy, about unlearning, about trauma, about more than one person. I mean, it's it's, it's very crazy if people think that polyamory is fun. Like, it's a fun thing for me to have multiple partners. It's not, it's just hard work. And for me, polyamory has been more like cathartic. It's been very healing. It's been, it's given me the opportunity to, yeah, to have those really insane conversations that I often shied about, and to talk openly about my jealousy without feeling shame. And people think, oh polyamory, there's no jealousy. It's just like no, it's it's prevalent, it's a human feelings, a human emotion, and everybody goes through it. It's just that in polyamorous relationships, we sit in those situations and we are in the moment, like okay, let's talk about where's the jealousy coming from? What's your fear? Are you afraid that you're going to leave you? Often more often than not that's the fear. It's just like you're going to leave me for somebody else. It's not the case. It's just like, I actually just want to be with somebody else as well as you. And then it's heavy, it's heavy. And I do hear stories of a lot of people practising polyamory but in a don't ask, don't tell way.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay.
Kaz Lucas
I don't know very many people who are practising like, proper ethical, non monogamy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because you do hear like, yeah, I do hear also like in the UK and in the US, like people kind of having a don't ask, don't tell structure to their polyamorous relationship, but then I also hear a lot of like, polyamorous people being like, oh, that's really not the best way to go about it.
Kaz Lucas
Yeah. Yeah. It isn't, it really is not, I don't. I don't prescribe to that kind of unethical non monogamy. And, and to be completely honest I, by virtue of my introvertedness, I, my partner and I mostly keep to ourselves. My partner just moved to Kenya to be with me. So, yeah, so this is great because we're both like extreme introverts, actually, I think they're more of an introvert than I am. And it just, it's nice that we keep to ourselves. We don't really like I, you know, people are always looking for community, and that's just something that I always shy away from. Just like I, I have my family, I have my partners. I'm, I'm okay with the people in my life at the moment. I'm not really searching for community. But I know that, I know that I am not the prototype. So I know a lot of people are like, oh, I want to hang out with more people that are that are polyamorous so that we can have conversations about like, what it's like having a poly Q. I want to hang out with more queer people so I know what are the safe spaces to hang out with queer. And for me, I'm just like, I have all of that in my house. I'm going to stay here.
Hannah Witton
Are there places in Kenya where people can kind of find that community if that's something that they want?
Kaz Lucas
Yes, there are. There's a lot of safe pockets in the country that have been created by many different queer organisations, and it's beautiful. It's beautiful to watch. It's beautiful to see more and more places pop up. And, and just like when it comes to like holding events, just collaborating with different institutions that are like, yes, we're very queer friendly, you know, have your event here. So that's, that's been wonderful.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, that's great. Do you have any, like recommendations for kind of other Kenyan activists or sex educators? Or like, like you said, kind of like organisations, for people to check out? If not on the top of your head, we can always just put them in the show notes.
Kaz Lucas
I'm happy to send you a list of things.
Hannah Witton
Please do, yeah, that would be great, thank you. So we have some questions from folks on our Instagram, some listener Q's.
Kaz Lucas
Okay.
Hannah Witton
Somebody asked, how did you approach your first polyamorous situation? Is it something you have always been sure about?
Kaz Lucas
No, it's not something that I've always been sure about. It's something that I discovered maybe about 12 years ago. My first polyamorous relationship was about 12 years ago. And it was with a couple that I met, a married couple that I met when I was in the US for the first time. And there was just like, it felt like, I was staying with them because they were friends of a friend. And I was staying with them, and then there was just like, insane chemistry. That's how it started. It was very, like, it was very, like, physically lead. And then we try to form a relationship out of that, whereas I feel like it could have just stayed at that place.
Hannah Witton
Were they already polyamorous?
Kaz Lucas
Yes, they have, they had practiced polyamory. They had been practising polyamory. So and it was my first time and I was just like, it's similar to having your first same sex relationship or sexual experience, where you just fall in love, like, oh my god, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. That was my first poly relationship. And that lasted about one or two years or something like that, but it was very tumultuous. And it was new, so there was a lot of jealousy, not so much communication, and it was just, it was just it was a whirlwind. And that's when I actually discovered the word polyamory and I remember when I found it, I was like, oh my god, this is me, this is what I want to do. Yeah, and and then I like following that lead ever since.
Hannah Witton
I think kind of like what you said reminds me that it's important to remember that like, just because a relationship is polyamorous, doesn't mean that it's perfect. Because I think like in sex positive spaces, you can kind of fall into this trap of like, oh, well, polyamory means like excellent communication, and like openness, and trust, and like all of these things. But you can have all of the same issues in a monogamous relationship in a polyamorous relationship too.
Kaz Lucas
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
And what you're saying there about like, yeah, tumultuous and like bad communication and stuff like, yeah, it can still happen.
Kaz Lucas
Yeah. And also just a relationship is a relationship is a relationship. And I find that people, especially monogamous people, are constantly trying to compare poly relationships to monogamous relationship. And the truth of the matter is not anybody can be, not everybody is monogamous. And not everybody can be polyamorous. And it's just about finding what works for you as an individual. And I just think you need to keep telling people polyamory is is not fun. It's very difficult.
Hannah Witton
I mean, I was about to say like, you wouldn't just like, prescribe someone a monogamous relationships to fix all their problems, but like, I was thinking about the way that society kind of just puts like romantic relationships on a pedestal and actually, maybe society does a bit of being like being in a relationship will help you.
Kaz Lucas
Yeah, just take one relationship with a spoon of sugar and -
Hannah Witton
All will be well. This is an interesting question from somebody. They've said, advice to someone who is wanting to be monogamous, but struggling with poly urges.
Kaz Lucas
Okay, I love that question. I thought you were going to say they're struggling in a polyamorous relationship.
Hannah Witton
No, they got they got some urges going on.
Kaz Lucas
Some poly urges. Okay, so there's a term called monogamish. Where monogamous couples can sort of fantasise about polyness. So people who are in monogamous relationships may, for example, sometimes introduce a third party into their relationship for maybe a threesome. That's one way of thinking about being monogamous, but having poly urges. But also just the idea of fantasising with your partner about polyamory. A lot of the time the urges are not like relationship urges, they're more like sexual urges. And so maybe somebody just wants to have multiple sexual partners. And I feel like that's something that you can fantasise with your partner about. And if you have access to spaces like BDSM dungeons, that would be a nice place to go with your partner to sort of watch other people, if you're into voyeurism, or have people watch you if you're an exhibitionist. And that's ways in which your partner and you can stay monogamous, but be in situations that where other people are involved, but not necessarily involved in your relationship?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think that's a really great distinction of like, exploring things practically, and then exploring things together in fantasy as well. Like, but yeah, that's huge. I also think of it in terms of like, because I, because I'm in a monogamous relationship, but I would say that, like, if I did have any, like, poly urges, it's more around just kind of like flirting.
Kaz Lucas
Okay.
Hannah Witton
And like, that's something that isn't like, is an open conversation with my partner in terms of, especially during, like, the last two years of like, the pandemic and stuff and and like not being in situations where I'm meeting strangers and just interacting with strangers and stuff. And so like being honest with him about that of like, I'm feeling like there's part of me that has this very, like flirtatious, like side of me that where I like to kind of like flirt with strangers and kind of like, have fun conversations and stuff where I don't like really want anything more. Like that was taken away from me in the last two years. And so like, but having those conversations has been like, really important.
Kaz Lucas
Just for you, out of curiosity, what about like, have you tried to explore digital flirting with strangers on the internet?
Hannah Witton
Do you know what, no, I haven't, because I think it's the in person stuff that I really, like, thrive off of. And it's like the vibes, and it kind of just like happening organically.
Kaz Lucas
Yeah -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But it's funny that you say that because me and my partner we're talking about Habbo Hotel recently, I don't know if that's something that you've ever used. But it was like this online world where you'd create like a little avatar, and I used this when I was like, 13 or 14 years old, like that kind of age of like, the Internet was like, just beginning kind of thing. And I was just like this horny little 13 year old. But just like, my character would just like, I just like walk my character into rooms and just like start spewing all of this like, sexual nonsense.
Kaz Lucas
That sounds like me.
Hannah Witton
Like, I was like, I was one of those creeps in the like online chat forums rooms that was just like, sex sex sex.
Kaz Lucas
Oh my gosh, oh, my God, that was me.
Hannah Witton
But I think it's so funny because we kind of like we have this assumption as well, that it's like, older men who are kind of like being creeps on line in that way. And like yes, there's definitely a sizable portion of them who are, but then I also find it funny that like, from personal experience, I'm like, no, but some of those like horny people online to just teenage girls.
Kaz Lucas
Yes, yes. And then there's other people that are pretending to be teenage girls. Yes. Is that that's probably.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah.
Kaz Lucas
But yeah, I was definitely one of those people on high five. Do you remember high five? I don't know what they, I don't know how old you are -
Hannah Witton
Ooo I don't know if I do. I'm 30.
Kaz Lucas
So yeah, you should have like, I don't know -
Hannah Witton
I missed that.
Kaz Lucas
You must have missed it. But it was similar. It was like chat groups, and then I would always go online and find like the more sexual chat groups and then just like, but I actually actually I like the virtual world has always been, has always been really more attractive to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I would literally like walk into these virtual spaces, spew a bunch of horny teenage nonsense in order to get kicked out, like I wanted to get like kicked out.
Kaz Lucas
Really?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it was like, I want it a bit of back and forth. But if I got kicked out, I'd be like, cool.
Kaz Lucas
Wow.
Hannah Witton
I know.
Kaz Lucas
I also did get kicked out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Look at us.
Kaz Lucas
Look at us.
Hannah Witton
Okay, I just had like a couple more questions from Instagram. Somebody asked what sex slang exists in Kenya/Swahili, and does the language change how you talk about sex?
Kaz Lucas
That is such an interesting question. The answer is yes. And yes, it does change the way we talk about sex. It makes it a lot more vile.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Kaz Lucas
But to be completely honest, I don't know it. I am, yeah, I am not in that group. So there's like a Swahili slang, it's called Shang, which is just like, it's a mix. It's an amalgamation of like many different languages and words that are put together, including some English words. And it's a language that is constantly changing because it was created so that, like, the older generation wouldn't understand what the kids were saying. So it constantly changes, as soon as somebody catches on to the language it changes. So yeah, there's a lot of like, the way sex is discussed is actually very vile. And because a lot of these terms, and this language is created by men, it's very, like, vulgar, and like very heteronormative, and very just like vile.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay, if you do figure out any examples, if you encounter any, then -
Kaz Lucas
Share them?
Hannah Witton
Then share them, but then as soon as they get shared, then it'll change.
Kaz Lucas
Yes, by the time it becomes public knowledge, it's it's something different, by the time I know about it, it's changed.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Fair enough. Well, Kaz, thank you so much. It was so fun to chat with you and like, get to know more about you and the work that you do. Let us know, where can people find you online? Like where can people get in touch?
Kaz Lucas
Absolutely. So you can follow me on Instagram, follow the podcast @TheSpreadPod on Instagram and on Twitter. And then you can follow my personal page, which is Karen Kaz Lucas on Instagram and on Twitter. And, yeah, and the website, www.kazentertainment.com, which really has everything.
Hannah Witton
The hub of it all.
Kaz Lucas
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Nice. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all so much for listening.
Kaz Lucas
Thank you, bye!