Decolonising Queerness and Making Sex Playful with Gayathiri Kamalakanthan | Transcript
Read the episode shownotes here
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
The point that we want to be at is that no one like questions or like challenges you about your own identity because it doesn't make any sense for someone to be like, oh, I know better than you about who you are, right? That is in a sentence, like, the colonial problem.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. In the UK it is currently LGBT history month and normally, I'm really bad at remembering to time relevant episodes around awareness days, weeks, months. And this is no different. I just got lucky this time that this episode, we happen to talk about some of the history of queerness and colonisation. There is so much LGBTQ+ history in the UK and in the rest of the world. Definitely go and check out LGBT+ plus spelt P L U S History Month, dot code dot UK, lgbtplushistorymonth.co.uk, where you can find a calendar of all sorts of online events happening that you can get involved in, from workshops, virtual working from home for the LGBTQ plus community, talks, Q and As, and film screenings. And of course, lots of other organisations are doing all sorts of things for LGBT history month. So get involved. Also, if you haven't watched It's a Sin on Channel Four yet, I would highly recommend but you may need to pace yourself because it is a lot. It is beautiful, and heartbreaking. It's about the AIDS pandemic in the 1980s and I won't ramble on about it now but it is brilliant. Definitely go and check it out if you haven't already.
So my guest this week is the wonderful Gayathiri Kamalakanthan. They are a decolonising sex educator with the School of Sex Ed and Decolonising Contraception, and founder of Inclusive Tamil Arts and just an all round brilliant human being. We talk about looking at the history of what we're teaching as sex educators, which allows for an intersectional approach, asking questions like how do we know what we know when it comes to health, medicine, and contraception, and at whose expense did we gain that knowledge. Gayathiri talks about what it means to decolonise queerness and queerness in Tamil history. We chat about maybe my favourite topic at the moment and that's centering joy in our work as sex educators: how important things like play, imagination, art, and creativity are in an educational setting, but also in sexuality, and how we often lose that joyful, playful parts of ourselves as we become adults but we need to hold on to it for many reasons, but also because of its role in sexuality and our sexual experiences.
So I hope you enjoy this episode, happy LGBT history month. And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talk about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and also we now have transcriptions. So going forward, new episodes will have transcriptions and we will be slowly making our way through our backlog of episodes and also adding transcriptions to those and you can find them on our website. Please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @doingitpodcast. If you like this podcast, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes. It is really appreciated. And here is the brilliant Gayathiri Kamalakanthan.
Hi, Gayathiri. I'm so excited to have this chat with you. How you doing?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Hi, I'm alright. Thanks. How are you?
Hannah Witton
Not bad. We had a power cut this morning. And I was so nervous that I wasn't going to be able to speak with you. I'd have to be like, I'm sorry. But we're here; the power is back. Which is good news.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Good. Good.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to kick off really asking how did you get interested in sex ed, and how did you get started with what you do? What's your origin story?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. Um, so I've always been interested in talking openly about things that I guess in our society are taboo, we all are sort of curious about. So I remember when I was 10, and I started my period. And we had this big like, saree party, as is custom in sort of Tamil households.
Hannah Witton
Oh cool.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I didn't know about that.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, they're called saamathiya verdu or age attainment ceremonies. Um, and, you know, there was a big sort of celebration. Um, in a way, which is nice because it brings the community together. But I wasn't informed at this point from school or from the community about, like, why I was bleeding? Um, you know, what's that about? How to manage pain, um, it sort of felt abnormal? Um, because I was the only person my age, in my own mind, right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and also that is quite young so you would have been one of the first as well.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, and possibly. So, um, I think from that time, I have had all these questions, and then sort of in secondary school, talking about masturbation with friends, and again, feeling like, oh, I was the person that invented it. You know, as a kid in their like, I discovered this thing no one else knows about it, I must tell people.
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
And then kind of growing up. And then at university, I felt really quite confident. Just talking about, like, what it is that I wanted, in terms of pleasure. And what I didn't want. And actually interesting, the origin story, I don't know where precisely that confidence came from, like, maybe. I went to an all girls school and I often like to say that, you know, like, what I didn't learn within, like, the kind of structured classroom or from my family where sex was very much a taboo, I learned from the girls. And we like raised each other, you know what I mean?
Hannah Witton
You learn it on the playground?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And yeah, I think that has had a really big sort of role to play in, and why I didn't feel embarrassed and, you know, being quite vocal, and directive about like, what physical or like, mental pleasure I wanted, from partners. And then I was quite interested in just like hanging out with children, sort of in educational settings. So I worked for an education charity, and then what I really, kind of my most, I guess, proud work in those educational settings were like, you know, the one week a year where you talk about like pride and LGBTQ identities that are sort of like allocated?
Hannah Witton
I honestly don't think I even got that in school.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Maybe more so now?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. So maybe like, four years ago, when I worked for this education charity, we did, like, you know, what do different families look like? And what are the kind of power dynamics in society that dictate whether someone can be, you know, open about their kind of family and relationships? And I thought, actually, this is the work that I want to do. Not just one week of the year, but every day.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
And then someone asked me the question, um, you know, if you could make up your own job, and role in society, what would it be? And I think we don't really ask ourselves that question enough. Like, we kind of limit our imaginations to like what we think already exists in the system. And if I could make it up, I would like talk to young people about sex and relationships in a really kind of sex positive, like queer inclusive way that really centres like what they want and what they want to know. And then, you know, I, honestly, I feel so sort of lucky and privileged, but this person was like, oh, well, actually, I know, a person called Amelia Jenkinson, who is the founder and co-director of the School of Sexuality Education, formerly known Sexplain.
Hannah Witton
What a serendipitous thing!
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
I know, right? Yeah, reached out and now we're here. So I work for the School of Sexuality Education, and we go into schools, universities and community groups to talk about all things sex and relationships, from an intersectional, non-binary, sex positive and decolonising perspective.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and we love School of Sex Ed here on this podcast, I think I've interviewed a lot of you now. But it's just such great work that you do. And you mentioned from a decolonising perspective, and you also do some work with Decolonising Contraception.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, absolutely. So Decolonising Contraception, founded by Dr. Annabel Sowemimo, is a collective of black people and people of colour, that work in all different disciplines, around sexual and reproductive health. So we have doctors, nurses, mental health workers, researchers, and sex educators like myself, to really interrogate, kind of how do we know what we know about health and health care? Sort of challenging dominant narratives around kind of, y ou know, what is, quote unquote, normal? In terms of, let's say, sex, and relationships. And also, like, how are people treated within healthcare systems and who gets, you know, the kind of, who gets listened to when they're trying to advocate for themselves? Whose pain is listened to more readily? And so yeah, we run workshops, on decolonising beauty standards, decolonising sex education. Even, you know, like, there's lots of policing that goes on in schools and in professional spaces around like, how you should talk, how you should dress and all that is kind of white dominated, right? Like, the closer you are to whiteness, the more kind of acceptable you become. So yeah, challenging all of that.
Hannah Witton
When you say decolonising sex education, I'd love to hear more about what is involved in that. Because like you said, like, how do we know what we know? And like, we can teach young people like here's different contraceptive methods, like, this is what healthy relationships look like, or, you know, like, give them the information. But when you look at the history of how we often got that information, it's really white dominated, and it's really oppressive. In terms of like, what you think and in decolonising sex ed and having intersectional sex ed, is there a place for that like going into like the history, like you have a class on contraception, but then you also go, here's why we know this, and we need to be aware of the history of this, too.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. So I think it is best when it's integrated. Right. So rather than having a separate kind of decolonising session, that, hopefully, you know, if we're imagining into the future, that all work and all teaching would be done through a decolonial lens. So yes, like teaching about contraception, you know, these are your options. You know, these are the times after school or after work, where you can go and get them for free. But also, you know, why do we have this knowledge about contraception in the first place? Like how has it been procured?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
And the reason why we need to know about the kind of colonial history of contraception and healthcare in general is so that we don't replicate the past. But even now, you know, lots of black and brown people aren't getting the health care that they should receive because there is so much, and I don't like this term, unconscious bias, because really, let's call it what it is - it's racism and prejudice. And I think it's sort of, I would argue, a product of white fragility and whiteness trying to protect itself when we talk about unconscious bias. Because really, if you invested the time to like, challenge, how you behaved with, you know, different people, and then you can sort of, you know, just like, reflect and think, oh, I'm not treating, you know, x y z people, you know, oppressed marginalised people, whatever their intersecting identities were, in a sort of equitable and compassionate way.
Hannah Witton
Dig a little deeper, and you can find the roots of that. And suddenly like it becomes conscious, but I guess I call it unconscious bias means that you can be like, it's not my fault. I didn't know.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. And actually, it's like, okay, cool well, if we don't know, how do we learn, and it is, you know, our sort of collective and also individual responsibility to seek out resources. I mean, you know, especially kind of with last year, there's so many podcasts, blogs, stuff on TV for all ages, to learn, and actually, maybe I'll give it to you at the end, but I've just got sort of 10 different resources that I think are like exceptional. I go back to them every month. Yeah, and it's a kind of an array of light, what you can listen to, watch and read.
Hannah Witton
Oh, amazing. Yeah, please share them and we can leave them in the show notes for people to check out as well.
Hannah Witton
I'd love to also ask you about, because you mentioned how one of your focuses is making these sex ed spaces queer inclusive, as well. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on the idea of decolonising queerness. Because that's also something that I remember having to unlearn at some point, maybe when I was at university? Like, the general narrative that I was given, like, as a child, and as a teenager was that like, here in the UK, we're so accepting, and like, it's not illegal to be gay here anymore. But look at these other countries where they're so backwards. And then it was at university that I was like, hang on, but we gave them those laws. That was us. That's not them. And, yeah, I'd love to hear if that's something that you're trying to incorporate into sex ed as well.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, absolutely. You know, so Alok Vaid-Menon, who's one of my kind of, yeah, absolute teachers, you know, I don't know them personally, I wish.
Hannah Witton
I follow them on Instagram.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. And their website, they kind of post, you know, thoughts and articles and poems. They really kind of explore the creation of cis-ness as a sort of universal project of dominance. It's not like the biological template, it's very much constructed by kind of colonial white supremacists, in order to control, right. So let's say 1800s, European colonialists arrive in, let's say, Sri Lanka, because that's where my family's from. So I'll just use my own kind of heritage as an example.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
You know, being sort of gender fluid, they wouldn't have called it that because they would have had their own language, but being gender fluid was kind of usual in society, it was expected. But then colonisers came in, thought, oh, actually, the best way that we can conquer and dominate is to categorise these people and so then you have the creation of racial categories and gender categories in the binary. So you can split people up, right and say, okay, this is your job to do x y, z, because you seem to fit what we call male or female, brown, or black. So it's not kind of the, it's not the origin of who, you know, I now know my community to be and actually that's really validating for me, because I'm like, oh, you know, even though there's a lot of, like, queerphobia in my Tamil community, that I witness. I mean, I think this is changing, which is great and I'll get onto that, but although there is a lot of Tamil queerphobia, I'm like, actually, we can unlearn this. It was created and it's not actually kind of within our heritage. I mean, I can point out something in the past and be like, oh, that's me like I, my way of being exists and existed back then.
Hannah Witton
And it existed with your Tamilness as well, like those two things go together.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, absolutely. And I think kind of to understand that, you know, sexism, queerphobia, anti-blackness, toxic masculinity, these are all consequences of like white colonial patriarchy, right like you can create these categories of like, this is how you need to be. If you're not then we can, you know, get rid of you. You're, like, excommunicated from society. Then you force people to conform. Right? So sexism comes from the binary queerphobia comes from like not conforming to that binary. Anti-blackness comes from like not being able to assimilate into whiteness, and toxic masculinity comes from not kind of shaping yourself into kind of that, quote unquote, kind of ideal masculine, like patriarch, but really, that doesn't exist in reality, like none of that, none of those templates actually exist in reality.
Hannah Witton
No, they're all made up.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It can be quite, I guess, liberating when you realise that as well. Just like, hang on. Let's unpack this. Because a lot of the arguments for keeping those binary and oppressive structures in place is that it's nature. Like, and then when you realise it's not like, hang on.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. And just like, honestly, like, one thing I've loved, doing, um, over the past year, is just like reading, like watching the joy of like, resistance. And you know, we can talk about kind of the struggle and, you know, the intersectionality of struggle, and kind of how we can be better allies by like, understanding that we have a common oppressor. And you know, that's important. But actually, like, centering our joy is, is so radical, and it's like, what the oppressor doesn't want us to do. Right, just existing and being kind of happy and excited. Actually, I'll just mention Inclusive Tamil Arts now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, please tell us about it.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, Ithink it sort of fits in. So I, last year, was in a zoom workshop, I think we're the first zoom workshop I was in, sort of in March. I remember googling that day, like, how do you operate zoom? Yeah and it was by ANBU UK who are a Tamil-led charity that work with survivors of childhood sexual abuse. And that particular workshop was on queer Tamil histories, and kind of finding the joy in, and that recognition in like, temples and artworks, where there is like queer Tamilness to be seen as visible. And honestly, for the first time in my life, I heard, I met other queer Tamil people who were kind of speaking openly and wanting to celebrate. And I was like, wow, like, I never knew until that moment that I would find joy in this space. I didn't even seek it out before, you know.
Hannah Witton
Because you're just under the impression that it has to always be a struggle.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Right exactly. Yeah. Or that, you know, I've got my queer white friends over here. And I've got my like, Tamil family over there. But those things don't kind of mix. Yeah, and then kind of thinking, oh, wow, this kind of intersectional space where my Tamilness and my queerness are definitely kind of embraced together. And they kind of impact one another. This is, yeah, really validating. So then, with the kind of help of ANBU UK and the School of Sexuality Education, and Decolonising Contraception have been really supportive as well. We started up Inclusive Tamil Arts. So that is an organisation to celebrate and create artwork that kind of imagines what a queer Tamil future could look like.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. Honestly, it was just kind of a seed that was planted in my head in March of last year. And now, we've got funding from the Arts Council, that's a lovely. And yeah, we're going to be starting workshops at the end of January. The first one is on, like, creating art beyond gender. And yeah, it'll include some free writing exercises, and kind of platforming queer Tamil artists who might not have got platforms that really centres who they are, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I really love that you mentioned imagining, as well, because that came up in a previous podcast interview that I did, it's just been coming up a lot for me about how we've been just like, given the societal scripts around gender, sexuality, race, like all of these different things, and imagination as well as joy, are these really powerful things our disposal. And it is about, yeah, like you said, like imagining these worlds, because we have to be able to imagine them in order to kind of create them.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, absolutely. Actually someone I'm reading right now. So adrienne maree brown.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, I have a book ordered. And I'm, like, I want to read it.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Honestly, like, I feel like reading, so I'm reading Pleasure Activism at the moment, and even just picking it up and like, you know, writing my own notes in there and highlighting things like, I really feel like I'm in this joyful conversation with them. And one of the I'm sort of, sorry, I can't remember the person who adrienne's quoted, but it's "the role of the artist is to make the revolution irresistible." And I feel like art has such a role to play because we all, you know, have creativity inside of us, even if we might not call ourselves artists, you know, whether it's like journaling, doodling, just like playing, you know, like, as children, we play a lot and that's really joyful. I've actually been saying this year that, like, for my 30th I would love and this is a tangent, but I would love to have like a massive game of stuck in the mud.
Hannah Witton
This is something that's also come up for me loads about play and, like adults playing and like, and how that connects to like, pleasure, and sexuality as well. Like, I just think it's so huge that we, we think of, we often like get nervous and anxious about things like sex, because we think of it is a place where we have to perform, rather than a place where we get to play. And I love that, I want to have like a big wacky warehouse bouncy castle 30th that would be great.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yes, exactly. Can I come? Like that sounds...
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're invited. I turn 30 next year, so hopefully, we won't be in a pandemic.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, like, that's it exactly. I think we get so nervous about like, performing what is right. And, you know, I know you've spoken before about like, oh, quote unquote, being good in bed. But really, it's like, well, how are we communicating with our partners? How are we like, allowing all people involved to like, ask for what they want, experiment, try things out, you know, consensually. Try it out if you don't like it, like cool. Okay, actually, let's stop let's try something else. And yeah, that extends to like play stuck in the mud and like, let's free-write, it doesn't need to be you know, like officially a poem with, you know, this number of lines and rhyme schemes or whatever. I just think there's also like a lot to be said about whose art or like whose again, knowledge is deemed like, you know, correct. Or if it comes out of an institution, then you know, it's valid or certificated or whatever.
Hannah Witton
Or whose art gets celebrated.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. Exactly like, who gets to tell their own story, you know? Recently I've been having conversations about like, as an artist, like, should you be telling someone else's story where like, you have privilege and power to tell the story of like, the person who is oppressed, rather than, like them having their own platform to be able to, like, speak. And, anyway, yeah, but, I mean, going back to kind of how this ties into, like, education, like sex and relationships education
Hannah Witton
It's all connected.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Because, like, in the classroom, like who, you know, takes up the most space, like, who gets to challenge dominant knowledge without like, consequences, and just like, allowing students like to say, oh, that doesn't make sense that, like, we should just accept what you're saying, without ever, like, challenging authority, or you know, like, why do we have to write or speak in this way? And, you know, it extends to uniforms. Why is this kind of monogamous relationship, the thing that, you know, like, has to fall into, you know, that kind of trajectory of marriage, and then there's lots of legal privileges of marriage. And that's all, that's all kind of around cis-ness and, yeah, that the validity of monogamous relationships. Like, I guess, I guess what, for me, the most important thing is, can we equip young people to challenge like, what is, quote unquote, like the truth or what is right. And to question like power structures, because they're everywhere.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I think about like a toddler who's learning to speak and like, seeing the world for the first time, and is going, why, why this, like, why that? And then it's not that we grow out of saying why it's that we learn, and we're taught to stop asking questions. And if you know, in a, in the case of a sex ed classroom, you've got the like, but why does it have to be marriage? Like, why does, why do relationships have to be monogamous? Like, why do cis women have to dress a certain way? Or like, why do I have to adhere to the gender binary like? But we often just kind of, like, tell young people like, because I told you, so. Without kind of going, oh, actually, why? Let's like, and then like, from that next level, like, why again? And then why again? But yeah, you're so right, we need to be equipping young people with, like, but also like, with the ability and the tools to challenge things, but then also like, the permission, because often it's just like, oh, we just stop asking questions after a while, and we just have to, we just have to accept that that's the way that world is.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, absolutely. And especially, yeah, with like binary sex ideas, which are like, I think maybe we're moving to this point where people are more happy to accept that there is a, you know, infinite variation in gender but that sort of, they falsely believe that there are just two main sex characteristics like male and female.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
This is completely a myth. There is just as much variation in sex characteristics. Like chromosomes, hormones, genitals, and I think that needs to be challenged. And you know, from the point of when a baby is delivered, you know, and a box is ticked about whether they're male and female, and you sort of have them, it's so arbitrary because there's so much about that person that we don't know. And maybe that we'll never know, I just, I mean, really, I feel like moving towards you know, in some countries, they have sort of like a, a way to mark sort of intersex, but also even going beyond that, like genitals can't be, you know, fixed in these boxes, because there is just so much difference. Do you know I mean?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, this is something I've been thinking about so much as well. Because often people get, like you said, still kind of like hold on to the fact that you've, you've got male and you've got female, like, that's kind of like the least we can, at least biology, there is clear categories and truth and it's like uh no. And the thing that I keep grappling and struggling with is how our language limits us and having these conversations, and trying to understand these concepts, because the language that we have, is, is like the main tool for understanding these things. And so that's when I always feel like I fall short in my understanding, because I can't put it to words, there's no words available for me. And I'm like, do we need new words? Like, do we just need to scrap male/female? Like, what? But then like, I don't, I don't know what consequences that would cause and then also, it's just like, do we even need more categories? Because like, a lot of the issues that we're having are from like, like you said, like the white colonial patriarch, like categorising everybody else. So just like, I've got no answers, only questions.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. You really, just there like voice a lot of my own thinking, it's really hard to sort of think about what future options could be. I guess, like the core sort of question I would always come back to is like, how can we just let people be as they are? Right? So like, yeah, if someone's like, cool I identify as a girl and only a girl, then great. Oh, I identify as, you know, I relate to parts of boyhood and girlhood or someone else is like, actually, those words don't mean anything to me, then actually all of those people are obviously within their right to like, identify in those ways. So, so maybe, rather than saying, you know, what new language should we create? It's actually like, well, let's just like, you know, allow and encourage people to like, use whatever words or no words that they want.
Hannah Witton
Play with it. Play!
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Mould it. Mould it to fit how you feel.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah exactly. I guess like, play play with it. Find what might work for you. And like, the point that we want to be at, is that no one like questions or like challenges, you about your own identity? Because it doesn't make any sense for someone to be like, oh, I know better than you about who you are, right? That is in a sentence like the colonial problem, like, like people with power, saying, I know better than you about who you are, about your culture, about, like what your, your future is going to look like and you're gonna yeah, kind of kind of fit that. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So true. I've got some questions from people on Instagram. This one I thought was really interesting. So this person has asked, w hat are your thoughts on modesty and queerness? And they've said how they hate how those two are treated as opposites in the West.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Oh, that's interesting. Um, I would, I would first maybe ask myself, like, What does modesty mean?
Hannah Witton
Hmm, There's a spectrum of modesty.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah. Are we talking modesty like...
Hannah Witton
In my head I assume it to mean about dress.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's kind of like how I always hear the word modesty kind of like being used. But I might be wrong.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
It's interesting. Um, maybe we can have a whole question around like, you know, what does modesty even mean? Is it, is that word like moralising over like, you know, how we should behave? How we should dress? You know? Is it like policing our bodies?
Hannah Witton
It's an interesting one because that's so true. Like most of the time when I hear the word modest and modesty, it's somebody, it's like the oppressor basically saying you like, you should dress a certain way that is more modest. It's like coming from the outside. But then more recently, I feel like I've been stumbling across like, mostly young women, I think online or like on Instagram, where they're like, Instagram account is like, about modest fashion. And it's something that they own. And they're like, that it's like, reclaimed as theirs and something that they identify with, and I just find it so fascinating.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Oh right okay. I've not come across that. That's interesting, I'll look into it. But yeah I guess to answer the question. Um, I have not thought about it, I guess, like, there are as many different ways of being queer as there are people like, those two things I wouldn't say have any particular like, correlation, like, high or low? Do you know what I mean? Um, I think, um, yeah, I mean, personally, I don't think there is a sort of, it's not like they're opposites, or, or kind of aligned. But, yeah, one question that sometimes we get asked in lessons is like, why? And if we're talking about modesty, being sort of quiet and submissive, we're asked, like, oh, why, for example, during pride, or just in general, are queer people, so like, loud, and flashy? And, like...
Hannah Witton
And scantily dressed.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Right? Yeah, like up in your face about their queerness. And, you know, we have sort of that conversation around well, you know, why do we have pride? And, you know, maybe, like, it's been quite commercialised, but there's lots of like, splashing rainbows around. But, for me, there's like, three reasons. There's, like, joy and like, uplifting the community. There's educating society because there's still so much queerphobia and violence in the world still. And, also, it's really, yeah, a chance to kind of advocate for, you know, different laws or policies. And I don't think that you know, you would, you would question oh, why, why is someone celebrating, you know, a different kind of aspect of themselves. People are particularly, I don't know, critical of like, queerness but, you know, being like, too loud or whatever. But again, that's, that's another form of policing
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, definitely. Um, somebody asked, what has queerness among, and they said, Tamilians and I don't know if that is what Tamil people are described as.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, I get the question. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Tamilians, cool. What has queerness among Tamilians looked like historically?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, really interesting. Um, so there are lots of sort of historical stories around like fluid gender, fluid sexuality, that you can find in Tamil history. Some of it is sort of religious and some of it's not in like, temples. You can see kind of erotic art, you know, orgies and of oral sex. And, it's not, you know, like, tucked away in the darkness. It's, you know, kind of high up and in the centre, and you can, you know, it's very visible. I think it was unembarrassable, it was, like, proud. And so you know, if you, if you just, yeah, look out for them they're there. And I think more and more so like, writers like Shyam Selvadurai, Akwaeke Emezi, who is half Nigerian half Tamil, are sort of bringing these stories to the fore. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Love that. We always love book recommendations as well. Yeah. And then somebody asked, what are typical mistakes white sex educators make in terms of intersectionality, or lack thereof?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
So, Professor Kimberlé Crenshaw, came up with this term to kind of show the multiple forces of oppression that might impact a person. She sort of reviewed this case, initially, so in 1976, Emma DeGraffenreid was a black woman in the US. And she filed a suit against a car manufacturing plant because she wasn't hired, and she believed it was because she was black and a woman. So she filed for like race and gender discrimination. The case was thrown out of court and it happened to several other black American women as well, because the company did hire women, so white women, and also men, black men. And so they were like, actually, they do hire women and black people. So you're, you're basically wrong, right? Like, we're not gonna listen to this.
Hannah Witton
Yeah wow.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
And what Kimberlé Crenshaw highlighted is that actually, what was missing here was a framework to recognise that the specific discrimination that was being faced here was against black women, right, but we had no framework to understand that. So intersectionality is this framework within which we can understand people's overlapping identities and the struggles and marginalisation that they will face because of them. And so, so I guess it's like, you know, trying to think of maybe students, as individuals, and all kind of communication that they do, kind of all their behaviour is communicating something about their need, or their want.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
And, then, I think, and maybe it's not, you know, it's not white educators that, specifically are sort of missing this, I'd say, it's just, maybe if someone isn't thinking about the intersectional struggle or oppressions that different people face, then you're going to end up, I think, unintentionally, or unknowingly excluding or harming certain people. So if we're thinking about, and I always come back to kind of language or dress, or tone, like, all these things can be, and are policed, from like, day one from nursery, you know. I remember kind of getting in trouble because I had, I was, maybe at one point in my life, actually more fluent in Tamil than I was in English. And just not having the English words for things. And then kind of, you know, being seen as like, problematic, because I just didn't know how to communicate properly, and well, quote, unquote, properly. And I was sort of seen as maybe a bit of a nuisance, and this is when I was really little.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
But anyway, um, I guess. Yeah, so maybe in the classroom, kind of when, I guess when using examples, let's say, in kind of sex and relationships education, and using a real kind of diverse range of examples, different types of relationships, thinking about like, what are we saying when we're always pointing to like, marriage as like the epitome of, I don't know, life. Your goal, or even that, like higher education would be the goal. You know, so many of these institutions are like, built off of the like, like, you know, enslaved people and sort of immigrants but, you know, had no power or say in what they were kind of forced to do.
Hannah Witton
One language thing that I've been thinking a lot about recently as well is how easily we'll say things like, oh, when you have a partner or when you have sex or when you get married, or when you go to uni, and actually, we just need to scrap that and just say like, if. Like, it's such a simple switch, but it really says so much when when we say when.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And also think about like, economic power and privilege, or lack thereof. So you know, thinking about, oh, does this person have access to like a computer at home? Are they sharing with like, other family members? You know, if they weren't able to kind of complete work, why might this be? Maybe rather than jumping to like, oh, they, I don't know, couldn't be bothered, or I just like, willfully disrespecting me, quote, unquote, like, that's really centering like, your own kind of wants, rather than like thinking about, oh what, what isn't happening for this person such that they can't show up to this space in like, a way that is meaningful to them? So I mean, I hope yeah, I hope that answers the question. It's maybe not so much like white educators, specifically, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Like, I think, I think all of us have a part to play in, like upholding white supremacy and you know, as a South Asian, I, I will have certain privileges and like, a proximity to whiteness, where, like, perhaps some of my black colleagues don't, right, like, the kind of gatekeeping by kind of white power might allow me in a bit more, and rather than me being like, oh, I'll take the power that I can get, actually be like okay, how can I dismantle this kind of system that I somewhat benefit from, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
I guess yeah, same with, with any sort of white educators, like, how can I centre, you know, black, indigenous, and people of colour, and their experiences, you know, not speaking for, kind of the people that you're talking about, but maybe like playing a video? Yeah, just like reading out from the experience of, yeah, a person who identifies in that way, you know, whether it's, whether you're talking about disability, or queerness. Or yeah, kind of people who are oppressed through like, not having economic power, really centering their experiences, and if possible, like paying them, there's lots of opportunities to pay them for it, you know, like if they have a Patreon. Like, if you're going to use a video, say of a black sex educator, have they got a Patreon? Or have they got a PayPal? Can you like, pay for that content? You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And even like, in, like, the materials that you use, as well, like, if there's illustrations or cartoons of people in that, there's a few artists that I can like, if I remember them, I'll put them in the shownotes, who create like, diverse sex ed, teaching materials. Because if you go onto Google, and you're like, searching for images and stuff to use as like sex ed materials, you will find a sea of whiteness. But yeah, I think you're so right in terms of like, the, fighting against our own assumptions about what young people need, and really like seeing them as individuals and each like, and yeah, what each of them need, but then also, like this practical side of things of like videos and teaching materials and like the language that you use, like, there's like the thinking about it. And then there's also that like, okay, let's put this into practice.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, actually, yeah. One more thing is like, if you're if, say, there's a white person who's asked to speak on something, but actually, like, maybe it's not your place to speak on that thing, or maybe you question, okay, in this day of events or on this panel, is it all white people or is it majority white people? Why is that? Like, using your power to question and actually like, decline those requests and be like, actually, no, I don't think that I should be taking up this space because this is already a majority white space, or actually, I'm not the person that should be speaking on this. How, like, how about, you know, blah, blah? Have you tried asking this person, you know? And like, actively like stepping down off your platform? And like off like, yeah, offering it to somebody else who maybe wouldn't be asked, you know, to do that work. And I'm not...
Hannah Witton
It's always good to have lots of names to be able to, like recommend to people like this, try this person instead.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yes, exactly. So I think it's important to ask yourself questions, like, and I ask myself these questions. How might I be upholding white fragility? How am I protecting myself within this kind of white supremacist framework? Am I a scaffold upon which whiteness, you know, is dominating this space? You know, am I just kind of the brown face as like a tick box exercise? And actually, am I going to challenge that? Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Those are all really great questions. Well, Gayathiri, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. I've absolutely loved chatting with you. Where can people find you online? Find Inclusive Tamil Arts?
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, thank you so much for chatting. So I am @Unembarrassable on Instagram, and and then Inclusive Tamil Arts is @InclusiveTamilArts. The School of Sexuality Education, is @school_sexed. I'm just going to double check that.
Hannah Witton
We can pop it all in the shownotes as well.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Yeah, definitely. And Decolonising Contraception is @decolonisingcontraception. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all for listening.
Gayathiri Kamalakanthan
Bye.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find shownotes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
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