Chronic Illness, Surgery and Sexual Roles of Gay Men with Chris Moore | Transcript
Read the episode shownotes here
Chris Moore
We went back and cuddled and kissed and it was gorgeous. Then I woke up and I just touched my boxers and like they weren't even like... it was just like literally I'd leaked right through and leaked out and he had a white duvet and white sheets. It was literally like it was everywhere to the point where I was like he might even get it on the mattress, do you know, like it had leaked everywhere.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. I hope that you're well. I'm continuing to plod along. And that's the best description that I currently have of my lockdown experience. This episode is a special one for me, because I got to talk about not just one, but two of my specialty subjects: sex and poo. Yep, you heard right. Poo.
My guest this week is Chris Moore, who is a YA author, and he writes about LGBTQ+ issues and chronic illness. Chris gets into his specific diagnosis and health journey in the episode but there's a crossover in mine and Chris's experiences, in that we've both had our large intestines removed, and Chris had a stoma at one point too. And as you'll hear, Chris is also not shy about talking about poo. In this episode, we talk about his illness, his surgeries as a teenager whilst also discovering his sexuality and trying to have normal teenage experiences. Chris shares about his struggles with body image because of his scars and stoma with the added pressure around having a perfectly masculine body from gay culture. We also get into the expectations of sexual roles because of your gender and sexuality, and how it plays out in relationships if you're physically limited and unable to do some sexual acts like not be able to receive anal sex for example. We chat about Chris's dating experiences and I finally get to ask someone the question that has been haunting me for years: How does someone with a penis empty their stoma bag? Really important question. Thanks so much to Chris for being a brilliant guest. His book, Gut Feelings is out now: it is a verse novel all about his experiences with chronic illness and sexuality and I'd highly recommend checking it out. As usual, you can find more information and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @doingitpodcast. If you like this podcast, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes, it is really, really appreciated. And without further ado, here is Chris Moore.
Welcome, Chris. How you doing?
Chris Moore
I'm doing well. I've got coffee, so I'm always doing well with coffee.
Hannah Witton
Nice, necessary. So we're gonna get into lots of detail around your story. But first, I think maybe it'll be a good idea for you to give us like a medical history backstory like quickfire so we all know what we're talking about.
Chris Moore
Sure. So yeah, I don't know if I can do quick, but I will try. The official name for my diagnosis of my chronic illness is Familial Adenomatous Polyposis, so familial being that it's genetics so my granddad had it, my mom had it, I have it and if I did have biological kids, there will be a 50% chance that they will have it. So it's caused by a gene mutation on the APC gene and then that's carried down from obviously from my granddad to my mom to me, and then if I had kids then what actually happens is, it's where, I don't know, adenomas or polyps grow on the inside of the large intestine. So they're kind of like, if you imagine like if you've ever gotten a wart on your finger, um, you'd expect to maybe see, you know, a couple of dozen, maybe a few dozen, maybe even a hundred, and I believe that I had hundreds if not thousands.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my goodness.
Chris Moore
Yeah, they were already fair- it starts with they're precancerous, but they do turn cancerous. And I think websites usually like Macmillan and Irish Cancer Society, they say that when you are... by the time you're 40, they can turn cancerous. I was told that basically, I'd be dead by 21 if I didn't get my surgeries.
Hannah Witton
And you were like 12, 13 when they told you that?
Chris Moore
I was 11 when I was diagnosed so I hadn't even like I hadn't even hit puberty. I was like, you know, looking at this sort of like magazines where like, you know, you were like, oh, look at the men, I was very, like, I was that boy and I was like, pretend you're looking at the woman, you know, pretend you're looking at page three. Be a man, be a man, like all this kind of jargon and nonsense. So yeah, when I was 13, I had my large intestine completely removed and I couldn't eat for like six days and everyone kept bringing up Cadbury Creme Eggs, which is a bit weird because like I loved Cadbury Creme Eggs, but when you've got like 80 Cadbury Creme Eggs and you can't eat them. It's a bit weird, you know?
Hannah Witton
It's torture!
Chris Moore
It was so bad. I ended up giving them away. I have never, I have never been a fan of Cadbury Creme Eggs since and just because there were so many.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you just like can't look at them anymore.
Chris Moore
No, definitely. And so then like basically like, I guess I'll try and condense this down, give you the CliffsNotes. But yeah, so when I was 17, I had like the lining of the rectum removed, and they attach that to the ileum or the small intestine. And because of the shape, they traditionally call it a j pouch. But in order to like let the stitches kind of heal, they have to give you an ileostomy. So it's an ileostomy obviously, because of the small intestine, the ilium, that part that they take out, still a stoma. So I had thought, so I actually had that when I was at university. I was in second year. So I was 17. And then I just turned, I turned 18 over the summer when I went into second year, when I had to get the reverse like Christmas. But when I had it done there was kind of a few complications I had like a fascia is what they call it. So it's where the scar tissue heals over the the skin and it kind of created a dip. So for a long time, I -
Hannah Witton
So this was - because in your book, I was, I kind of was, I was reading your book and you talk about like the black hole scar. Is that what that is?
Chris Moore
Yeah, it's basically like- because when they have to- like when I was at home, we had to get like a nurse to come over, so I had to lie in bed. And like, even when I was at home and this is like two weeks after the surgery, there was like a hole underneath the skin. It kind of went like- instead of going down, it kind of went under at like an angle, like a sort of 30 degree angle under the skins o they had to keep packing it with these silver strips to absorb, because it was infected, they had to absorb the pus and all that kind of nastiness. And that's the way that it healed, it healed like a dip. It almost, I always like tried to think like, it's the only thing I've taken from sort of five years of geography which is like, you know, the V shaped Valley, if you look at like the cross section. That dip
Hannah Witton
Right, I'm trying to imagine it but I'm so struggling!
Chris Moore
Did you do geography, Hannah?
Hannah Witton
I dropped geography at 14 so there's probably not a lot of memory left.
Chris Moore
V like a hole but like if you looked at it and you kind of, it would just be like a V. But it was horr- yeah, I didn't, it wasn't fun,
Hannah Witton
Especially like as a teenager at uni. That's so hard.
Chris Moore
Yeah, and I wasn't out to my family and I feel like I was always kind of uncomfortable in my body. I feel like, I feel like gay men growing up like generally have this expectation like when we see pictures of people we see like the six pack and the oiled skin and the sort of like, you know, the expectations, like expectations of almost like sort of that gym fit body or like, you know, Insta body and the sort of goes to the gym and that sort of masculine expectation, which obviously doesn't help because you see it everywhere. I think it's a bit better now in terms of representation of different like people kind of coming out but at the time it was like, this is 12 years ago, so yeah, it was it was quite tough to try and just like figure myself out and then the illness and the trauma of that that I was obviously not dealing very well with but you know, we're dealing with as well
Hannah Witton
It's so much to handle like at that age because like I was ill for a lot of my like teenage- kind of like that same like kid, tween, and teenage years as well. But I also had a lot of time being healthy, but then also didn't have to deal with figuring out my sexuality because I kind of like fit the straight box and and I was wondering because it got me- reading your book got me thinking that being being ill as a teenager, you feel like you miss out on lots of like key social or sexual, like, dating milestones like all of these things of like, oh, that's what it's like to be a teenager, like, that's like a quintessential teenage experience. And if you're ill you miss out on it. But then also like a lot of LGBTQ+ kids also feel like they miss out on it because they're having to hide who they are through- potentially when they're at that age. Does that like resonate with you? Is that what it was like?
Chris Moore
Yeah, so I guess for me like- so I had my surgery when I was 13 and up until then I'd been swimming since kind of I was able to to walk, you know, they remember like being at the pool and you hold on to the ring and you kind of can't really kick your legs, because you're so young, I kind of remember like, not really, they kind of drag you across, but I used to swim and like I was getting ready to sort of like almost compete, you know, in actual proper like, races in Ireland. When I had the surgery, I wouldn't get back into the water, you know, I completely gave up on that. I didn't want to be seen, I didn't want people to see my scar and the scar, to be fair, wasn't that bad, but it was bad to me. And then, so I had that, and I kind of retreated a little bit. And I suppose I kind of became a bit more like, at that time I became a bit more isolated, a bit more of a gamer, didn't really have many friends. And then like my dad had the brain injury, then around the same time, like just before. And so obviously, like he was in and out of hospitals for like, while he was in hospital for the best part of a year and in a rehabilitation centre. Because even when he had his, you know, even months down the line, and we'd go in and say, you know, where are you today, dad, and he's like, oh, the circus, and he'd be in a white room with a bed. And it was just kind of crazy. So I was going through that as well. And I remember when we had like sort of therapy as a family, which didn't really go great, if you've read the book. You know, and whoever's the loudest wins, but no one hears anyone, and they said, like, you know, well, would you like to have a, you know, would you like to do kind of group therapy with your people more your age, and I did and there was this girl, and like, we just, I just kind of went for it and we kissed each other and stuff like that. But it was very forced, like, I knew I didn't want to kiss her. And there was that expectation of like your first kiss, but then I decided as an LGBTQ person - and I don't know if people will resonate with that, like, other LGBTQ people where like, you kiss someone that you know you don't want to kiss but you're trying to like be what people expect you to be rather than who you actually are. So I think -
Hannah Witton
Have those teenage experiences.
Chris Moore
Yeah, and have that awkwardness and that like, you know, like, I do miss that. I feel like I have so much respect, you know, when you see like younger, sort of people that like are coming out now. And you just see them holding hands. And I'm just like, like, I just want to go up and just like, give them a hug and be like, there's a tenner, go and get yourself some cocktails, although probably maybe not at 13.
Hannah Witton
Like, I mean, I wasn't at school like that long ago in the grand scheme of things. And like, no kid was out in my year of my school, like no one. And that to me, like, is so like, wild when I think about it, because I was just like, this was in the 2000s. And yeah, just. Yeah. No one.
Chris Moore
So we had like five or 600 people at our school. And there was like, maybe one that we knew was gay. And the rest we didn't. And I was like, bullied mercilessly. I was called gay before I knew what gay meant. Like, really, you know. And because gay also like very much - I dunno about British culture, because obviously I grew up in the Irish education system, but we sort of like said, oh, that's gay, this is gay, as in like it's lame or uncool, and I just like was like, oh, this is really something that you should hide, like, this is something - you shouldn't be this. But also I was like, kind of like, especially when I went into like, the year above, I skipped my transition year, my fourth year that we do in Ireland, where it's kind of like an in between year, I skipped it. So I was like, I think I was 16 when I did my Leaving Certificate, I think it's the equivalent of your A Levels. I was quite smart and I was really good at like biology and stuff like that. I'd get like really, really good marks and I used to be bullied because of that as well. So I don't know if it was that they thought I was gay because I was quite quiet at school, which is hard to believe that I'm like, sitting here and chatting.
Hannah Witton
It was just an insult that was thrown at anyone different as well.
Chris Moore
No, definitely. Like, I remember like, as well when I did kiss this particular girl and I was like, oh, this is you know, this is her name and I finally did it. And it was like almost like, you know, like an achievement and accomplishment. Like, almost like a scouts badge that you can wear for the boys and it's like, yeah -
Hannah Witton
I kissed a girl!
Chris Moore
Just kind of reminded me of that, it's like, kiss the first girl, you know, get to second, third base, or whatever. Like, I remember they were just like, you're making that up. And I was like, oh my god, I went through all of that -
Hannah Witton
And they don't even believe you! You might as well have just made it up.
Chris Moore
I was like, ugh, whatever. I wasn't a very good liar though. To be fair, like I was the sort of person that would like probably there'd be like a dragon in the story that I made up or something stupid and a castle and a princess and they'd be like, nooo.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Always meant to be a writer then. So I have a question. I've had this for years. And well, for the last three years since I've had a stoma, and I haven't thought about - I keep forgetting to ask people this and then when I was reading your book, I was like, oh shit, must ask Chris this question. And so when I first got my stoma bag and when I was like at home from hospital, one of the things that me and my partner did was, so that he could kind of like, understand what it was like a bit for me to have a stoma bag, I stuck a stoma bag to his body in a place where it probably would be, you know, and so he like, you know, sat down on the toilet and like, moved around a bit and put like a T shirt on to kind of like, see how it felt. And he sat down on the toilet, and was just like, Wait, how am I supposed to do this? Like, how do I not get shit on my dick? And I was like, oh, good point, I don't have that problem, I just spread my legs. And then squeeze the output out of the stoma. So I just need to know how do you not get shit on your dick?
Chris Moore
That's a really interesting question. I was not expecting that. I didn't know where this was going, I was like -
Hannah Witton
A really highbrow question.
Chris Moore
I know, this is a winding road and I don't know where it leads. Into the dark forest. Quite literally possibly a good way to interpret it. I, yeah, I mean, I - off the top of my head, I think that - because I was quite tall. I was like, like, when I was 12 I think I was the height that I am now like I shot up at 12, 13. So I was about six foot or even like maybe 5'11 so I used to kneel down and I used to spend a lot of time at home or at university so I had to be quite cautious about like, guys piss everywhere, so. Just like be careful where you kneel down. And you know, maybe like clean a little bit bring, bring your bottle of Dettol And just, you know.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting. I hadn't thought about that. Because I did at one point, try and see if I could empty my stoma bag while standing over the toilet, and then decided that that was not the method for me and I was gonna stay sat down, but yeah, kneeling.
Chris Moore
Yeah, I just kneel beside it and then just put the toilet seat up and then just kind of, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Fascinating. I wonder if lots of people with penises do that method or if there's a variation out there? Please let me know, listeners, I'm so curious.
Chris Moore
And hashtag shit on the dick!
Hannah Witton
How do you not get shit on the dick? Oh my god, yeah, these are the questions that I have. But you know, I've been, I've been sitting on that question for three years since Dan asked me. I've not had a chance to ask anyone yet.
Chris Moore
Well, you've got your first answer.
Hannah Witton
There we go. Love it. Thank you.
Hannah Witton
So I wanted to ask what for you do you think has been the biggest impact on your body image and on your sex life, in terms of being ill and having surgery? Like, what, yeah, what's had the biggest impact?
Chris Moore
So I guess there's two things that have affected it. One of them is the actual scars, so the scar that I had after the second surgery because it healed so badly. If people were trying to touch me in bed or cuddle up to me, and they put their arm around me, I would, like smack their arm away. I wouldn't want anyone to touch me. I used to wrap the covers around myself. Yeah, I just didn't, I didn't even want to do it. Because it almost felt like it had its own heartbeat. It was pulsing. It was this horrible thing that I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror. And I couldn't accept it. And I remember like my first real boyfriend being like, I don't have an issue with it. And I was like, but I do. You know, you don't understand how I feel you with touching me. It's not about that you're okay with it. It's about that I'm not okay with it. And really I should have had some therapy at that point to kind of really, like help me through that. Because I was obviously still going through a bit of the trauma. Because it only been a couple of years after I had the surgery where I had my first boyfriend when I was like 20. The second one I guess is because I've had the lining of the rectum removed and kind of, you know, had that all attached to the ilium and the anus. In gay sex, you're either like top or bottom or sometimes verse. So when I remember like I've had relationships where they've just like, as soon as you ask the question are you top or bottom, it's like I'm top and then they're like, oh, I'll make you bottom and it's like, not gonna work like that, you know? That's not gonna happen.
Hannah Witton
Not physically possible.
Chris Moore
Because obviously, like, I'll haemorrhage because the stitches, it will, it will impact that.
Hannah Witton
No one wants that.
Chris Moore
And yeah, that was really tough because it was like you meet these people that were like, really good guys. But obviously like I couldn't expect them to do something they're not comfortable with either. So it's always been like, like, I mean, I'm like 30 and single, and like, I guess some of that, I think a lot of that in my 20s had to do with like, not really - until I kind of wrote this book, I guess like, in my later 20s, it was like, I didn't really process any of what I've been through, I think I just I pushed it to the back of my mind. And when I wrote this, it was like, okay, well, this is me, this is like, you know, if I meet somebody - and I guess as well, like, in gay culture, it's kind of like, people are like, some people are very, like, rigid, like, some people are very, like, oh no, I'm versatile, I'll to go with the flow. Some people are like, I'm only a top or I'm only a bottom, or they won't compromise. And it's very, like, you know, when you're talking to someone, like - I feel like in a straight relationship, you talk to them, you get to know them. And like, it's a guy and a girl and like, that would never really be an issue, right? Because then it's like, when you get to the bedroom, there might be some things that you like, and some things your partner doesn't like. But those two compatible like jigsaw pieces kind of have to work.
Hannah Witton
It's an interesting one because I feel like, I think the rigidity of like roles and sex is very much there in straight relationships too. It's just like person with the dick is the top, person with the vag is the bottom. Actually, there's, there's again, like, similarly, there's like no room for any, any experimentation beyond that really? Like, what if I want to wear the dick?
Chris Moore
No, of course. Yeah, no, true. That's fair. I didn't really think about that actually.
Hannah Witton
Not a lot of straight people do. They just kind of like accept the role that has been given them.
Chris Moore
As well, there are people that like, don't like anal sex at all, and they don't have that. And that's like, perfectly fine, too, you know, that way. Like, I don't think it's the be all end all, you know, that way. Like, with somebody like I really like to get to know them, because it's such a big issue for me, in many ways, like not be - like, I've worked through everything, but it's still important to me. So I have to have that like that connection, I guess.
Hannah Witton
And because you had your surgery, like when you were much younger, so like before you were sexually active. Do you feel - I guess like, maybe it's the wrong word, but like any sense of loss that that decision was made for you? In terms of being able to experience different types of sex?
Chris Moore
No, yes and no, I think like, the younger me was completely against the idea of bottoming and I think that really had to do with like, I was traumatised by enemas. When I was younger. I had the enema and I remember, they were like, it's gonna be just like jelly. And there's a poem in the book called just like jelly, and it kind of resonates throughout the surgeries. And it was like, it's not like jelly, because jelly's like raspberries, strawberry, and like lemon goodness, you know, and this kind of like jelly is also kind of like, disgusting when you think about what is native, but like, it' not, you're not like, getting a, you know, sticking a syringe full of jelly up your bum, it doesn't go up your bum, jelly doesn't go up your bum, so don't say it's just like jelly.
Hannah Witton
No, don't put jelly up your bum.
Chris Moore
Doesn't feel like that. We're gonna make that a hashtag, Hannah, jelly up your bum. Yeah, like, it was that idea, I guess, that made me not want to bottom. But then like later in life, I'm like, you know what, like, I would have loved to have that decision be mine, I would have liked to be with someone and like, you know, when you're like, you have a connection with somebody. And it's like, just there. And it's like that moment to try. It's almost like trying, you know, like, with the first time you kind of have sex, it's almost like that over again, because it's completely different experience, it's completely different. And in many ways, like, obviously, it kind of goes back to the idea of someone being the top being dominant, and someone being submissive being the bottom. But I guess as you know, you can play around with those roles. But for me, it would have been interesting to sort of be more submissive in that role, where I really just, I can't, you know. Like I can in terms of like, the top box, if you like, or the active box, but I can never bottom.
Hannah Witton
It's so weird how this is gonna sound so strange, but I really relate to what you're saying. And, and I think it's because so I've - and this is something that I've never really spoken about, but I've never had, I've never had anal sex. And I've never like really been interested. And I think it's kind of like similar to what you're saying, I've got a lot of trauma around my butthole especially to to enemas. And when I was in my mid 20s, something kind of shifted for me and I was just like, oh, I actually feel ready to experiment sexually with my bum. Right? I was like, in a place where I was like, I'm not gonna go like straight in anal sex, but I'm like ready to kind of explore to see if this could be an erogenous zone for me. And then a few months later, got ill, and had my surgery and had my colon removed. And it's, I was just like, what? Like, made that decision, decided I was like, actually keen, and then it got taken away from me.
Chris Moore
And it's like, it sucks, because it's like, you kind of feel like when you're with somebody, you're limiting them, but also you're kind of got that with yourself, you feel like you're not getting to fully enjoy, like your sexual experience or to play with it. It kinda does narrow a lot of the options for you because of that. Like I've had, I remember, like, once I was with this guy, I remember saying, like, you know, he stuck his finger up my bum. And I was just like, right, or lol as you like to say on the podcast. I remember just saying, like, seriously, like, I don't enjoy that, because it just immediately reminded me, I didn't even feel like good, it just reminded me of the enema. And I was like, no. And he kept doing it and I was like, okay. He was like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm getting dress,ed I'm going home, like, I'm not here for this. I was like, I am totally turned off. I said, if you like you completely managed to turn me off, like congratulations. I didn't say quite like that. It was probably a bit softer, not like my sassy, 30 year old self, but like, yeah.
Hannah Witton
We wish we could be like that in those moments.
Chris Moore
I really do. It's like I told you no. No means no, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Wow. Um, I also wanted to ask - because you also talk about this in the book - is leakages.
Chris Moore
Yes.
Hannah Witton
And how has that been? And then also, I kind of have a logistical question, because I might, I might have got the timeline wrong, but the leakages that you had weren't with a stoma, it was with your J pouch?
Chris Moore
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, it was with the J pouch, it wasn't with the stoma, you're right.
Hannah Witton
How does that - how does that work? Basically, is it because the J pouch doesn't have as much control as like a traditional colon and rectum so output could come out without you controlling it? Is that why?
Chris Moore
Yeah. Like your muscles aren't as strong, you know, because you've got all these invasive surgeries. And, like, I have this a really bad habit at the moment of ordering sweetcorn and tomato pizza from Dominos, which is like the worst thing ever and I like eat them at nine o'clock, and you're like, Chris, look, you've had this for like, 17 years, like you should know better, like, you know, but I don't know better. But yeah, like I have had leakages. Like there was two in particular that I remember. So there was one leakage. And it was this guy and I was in like - so picture like this kind of, like, you know, you're young, and like, it's a bit of dive bar, like it's in Dublin and it's like the George and stuff like that, it's gorgeous, but it's also like, a bitt dark or whatever, and you kinda like, I was there and there's all these kind of guys, I was looking at them, they're looking at me but like in my heart, I'd met this other guy a few weeks ago, and really liked him and I was texting him because I was thinking about him. And, you know, he's a lovely guy, and he was a nurse, and I was like, great, like, I'm gonna just get a taxi back to him, and I'm going to cuddle, it's gonna be so nice. And he went back and cuddled and kissed and it was gorgeous. Then woke up, and I just touched my boxers. And like, they weren't even like, it was just like literally I'd leaked right through and leaked out. And he had a white duvet and white sheets. It was literally like, it was everywhere to the point where I was like, he might even need another mattress, do you know, that kind of like it has leaked everywhere.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, I've got shit stains on my mattress.
Chris Moore
I had to like - Well, this was like, this was definitely gonna be a massive one. Like, I was just like, shit, no pun intended. And I remember him like, just I had to wake him up and he took forever to wake up and I was like, I can't even walk to the toilet because it will just go everywhere. And I remember being at the toilet and just ordering like the taxi and just be like, when I get in the taxi. Just please don't say anything. It will break me if you say anything about the smell or anything like that. Because I remember like, I literally had to throw the boxers out, I went home without wearing boxers. So I had to clean with that as best I could. I felt so dirty. There was another time where I was in London. And like, there was like, there was a guy that I was dating. And like, I had a leakage and luckily I managed to like kind of - it was like on a part of the covers that I could kind of like get rid of or like at least put to the side so that he wouldn't see kind of thing, and I was like thank God for that I was just like oh, such a close call. And it is something I think about because when you're have- it like, I couldn't be always sexually spontaneous because I have to completely like control what I eat and like, make sure that I'm not having anything too fibrous and, do you know what I mean, and people, like, when they cook me meals and I don't eat parts of it and they're like, oh, why not? And it's like, well, you made me this nice meal but actually later on when we go to like funkytown, like, we're not gonna quite get there because I'm gonna be afraid of shitting myself. And then they're like, like either like when you like you want to like strip down and like, gay guys are always like - well, not all gay guys, I don't wanna like typecast us, but like they're always like oh I just wanna like sleep without my boxers on like and I'm like oh I want to sleep with like my boxers on and then pyjama bottoms and they're like what. And I'm like, I'll wear like boxers and then shorts and I'm just like, they're like, are you cold, I can put the heating on, and I'm like please don't put the heating on, it's like 40 degrees already and I cannot take these off, like, I'll be stressing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's a it's a lot because then there's also just like, the fear of it happening as well just like -
Chris Moore
It's like when someone says oh like, do you know like when like, like because like I feel like we've all been there where you're in a club and you're younger and someone's like you want to go home like, do you want to come back with me, like you're kissing all night and you're holding each other's hands and then you're like, uh, no. It's just like, pretty shit.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like the maybe the equivalent would be like if you're on your period, but that also doesn't stop people. And that's like, fair game.
Chris Moore
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
We had some questions for you from some of our followers on Instagram, which I want to put to you now if that's all right.
Chris Moore
Absolutely fine. Excited and terrified.
Hannah Witton
Someone asked: did being ill as a teenager delay your understanding of your sexuality?
Chris Moore
Definitely. So for me, I was - so like, it wasn't just that - like so basically, my family was like divided, kind of from the age of like, around when I was 12, because my dad had a brain injury that really went on for like, a good couple of years as in like the actual in and out of hospitals and stuff like that and that was all going on. And I was in one hospital, my dad was in another hospital in another part of Dublin, so my mum had to drive back and forth. And to be honest with you, like the last thing that was on my mind. It's like, there was so much that I was trying to deal with, with my dad, like when my dad went into hospital, we were brought up to see him and he was in a coma. And they said to us, you know, I learned afterwards, my mom said that the nurse had told her like, you know, you might want to let the kid say goodbye. So then after that I'd gone in to have surgery, and he'd come out of the coma. And that was really, like, it was so difficult to understand what it meant to be gay because the only thing I had was like, you know, trying to go on the internet. We had like a family computer to try to like scroll. You know? Like, yeah, half naked boys and like, why am I getting a woody? You know, like, it was just, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Whilst all this other stuff is happening in your life and with your health and with your family, like, oof.
Chris Moore
No, definitely. It was like, I recognise it now that there was definitely like a sense of trauma around everything I've been through. But my mind - I wasn't, I was like 11 when I'd been told this and then 13 when I had the surgery, 12 when my dad went in and had his, had the brain haemorrhage, so this all came really quite in those formative years almost, I feel like were you start to learn about sex education.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and you're just like, brain is not ready for this information.
Chris Moore
I do remember I was at like a barbecue where like before, I think it was before I went into surgery, I remember like, just there's this guy. This older man. And I remember just going so he's so handsome. And I'm like *gasp*. I'm just like, obviously, I cannot stand up and meet anybody because I am quite excited and I don't know why and I can't process this feeling because I'm out here beside my dad who can't even really properly see us like and has all these issues going. It was just a really conflicting feeling.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, what a weird time. And somebody asked how, how did you tell people or even like present tense, how do you tell people your age, like your peers, about your illness? I guess if you're meeting them for the first time?
Chris Moore
So like, I kind of like not - I don't really shy away from the fact that like, you know, when people ask me like, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, like I write books and I teach and they're like, oh, what are the books about? And then I mention the chronic illness. And then they ask me, and now I say, well, look, this is my illness and this is what it does. I don't always say oh, by the way, I can only top. I don't say that. A lot of them are quite smart in terms of like they kind of get it and if they ask me then I'll be like very honest, but I it is quite - like it's something I own. It's part of my story. And like I guess like if I'm dating, that's kind of what I do. I'm quite open as well, like, my housemates that I live with and stuff will ask me questions, and I'm very, very open about it. Before, I found it very difficult because I feel like before I wrote the book, I didn't really fully understand. There was all these medical terms that were thrown around like dysplasia, which, you know, is just how this sort of polyp started to turn cancerous, like whether it's sort of mild or moderate or it's kind of gone on to a point where it is become cancerous. But everything was medical terms so I couldn't really understand it. And I think I was trying to understand what I actually had and how to explain what it was. But because you're meeting new people and people's attention span, it's quite like - if you're on a date and you're having a drink people's attention span isn't the same, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're like here's my medical history.
Chris Moore
Yeah, and like my medical history is hilarious. I just thought that was a quick story. So I remember I went to the doctor. So I'd come out to my mum and it didn't go well. And I went to the doctor, and I remember like, years - so basically, he said, oh, you need to speak to the stoma care nurse. But years later, I read the medical report and they always have - apparently, they always have like, diagnosis and it said I am a gay, and I just thought it was the funniest thing ever. I showed it to my mum.
Hannah Witton
On your official medical record?
Chris Moore
I should put that up on my instagram, it's so funny.
Hannah Witton
Oh yes. Frame it.
Chris Moore
Yes. It could be like my new wallpaper on my phone. I am a gay.
Hannah Witton
Part of me is just like, maybe that doctor was really busy and like typed stuff up really fast. Or maybe they were just very uncomfortable and didn't know what to write.
Chris Moore
It was definitely like, strange, but he was my doctor for like, at that point, like, probably like 16 years. So it was a bit strange just reading I am a gay.
Hannah Witton
It's not even grammatically correct. But - although maybe it is. Somebody asked: did you have any issues with partners that weren't considerate or accepting of the sex life limitations?
Chris Moore
Yeah, so I've definitely had people that have just been like, oh, well, that's a shame, and then it's just ended, like relationships, before they've even become relationships have definitely ended. And I've had, like, I remember, like, my first sort of real proper boyfriend was vers and when we broke up, we were talking about it and I remember him sort of saying, like, oh, I just feel, like, gay guys, like, really should be vers and they should, like, want to experience the best of both worlds. And I was like, are you shaming me for not being able to do this? Because that's kind of like, you know, what you're saying to me, right? Like, it just felt very the way he said it felt very, like, almost resentful. And I was like, you know we've been together for a year and like, that probably wasn't the best way to say that. And so I have had experiences where people like, it's just ended the relationship, you know? And, yeah, I've had people sticking their finger up my bum after I specifically say. You know, like, if they do it, and they don't know, I'm like, fine, but then obviously, like, my sexual drive just like plummets, like that association with the trauma of the sort of like the enemas. I don't. Yeah, like it. But I also don't like the sensation really.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you have any examples, I guess, of times where it's gone well? Like, where something - like what, what has been like a really good thing that somebody has said or done in response to you telling them like, hey, I can't be the receiver here.
Chris Moore
Yeah, so my last boyfriend was like, amazing. And so like, I was suffering, at the time, really bad anxiety. I was in Vancouver. And we had met up, and basically went for like, a drink and then I found out he didn't drink so he just got chicken wings, which was strange, me sitting there having a pint of cider, and him having chicken wings. And then it was just like, it was just really natural. And then I remember, like, I was quite stressed out at the time. And I remember like, when he met up with me, he brought me a hot chocolate. And he just listened. And he just kind of got it. And there was things like if he knew I was uncomfortable, you know, he'd hold my hand. Like, there was little things like he was really like, he was like, what I needed was - a guy that was a little bit less emotional than I was and he was able to just see things and be able to kind of understand, you know, and in the bedroom and stuff like that as well, like, I didn't feel comfortable, like I didn't feel uncomfortable going to the toilet, let's say like, you know, and worrying about him hearing or smelling or anything like that, which was like huge for me. And in terms of it going badly. I remember there was a guy. So when I moved to London, so I moved to do my Masters around 2012 and I remember like, I just was like, oh, I really like want to, like just meet like a real - I don't know, I want that sort of like, Love Actually sort of romance, I wanted something like that. And I remember just like thinking, oh, it'd be amazing. And I met this guy who was like, just really interesting and like, amazing. And we dated quite a few times. And I remember your walk, I was like, I'll walk you back to your place and stuff like that, because I can kind of get the bus anywhere. So kind of like walking through Kingston. And I remember telling him and saying, like, you know - like, I remember there was a point at which like, I went to say goodbye to him, and he ran back and kissed me. And he's like, I should have done that from the start. And that was our first kiss. And there was those moments when I was like, oh. And then when I told him, and he was like, oh, he's like, I only top. He's like, I don't like bottoming. And then that was off and then our friendship, just gradually - we became friends but it gradually just like, grew apart. And it was really sad, because he was a good guy. But yeah, he was like someone like I was really smitten with and it just broke my heart.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so interesting, because like, part of me, wants to be like, people just know what they want sexually. And like, there is such a thing as two people not being sexually compatible like that is a thing and if you're not sexually compatible, you have to kind of decide if you'd - if that's like it, right? Now, on the other hand, I'm just like, oh, but try! But maybe they, maybe he already tried, who knows.
Chris Moore
He did try before and I don't think he really kind of liked it. And, like, I kind of respect that, like, that's his decision, like, and I respect someone that just says like, look, you know. But it was just like, really, it was kind of sad not to have him in my life at all, even as a friend, because he was such a good guy, you know? But I guess it's kind of difficult, isn't it? When sometimes when like, a relationship hasn't ended because like, it was amicable on both sides, and there is some kind of sexual feeling there, it's both quite like difficult to, like, know how to navigate that because it hasn't died down because you're both just like, oh, we've worked better as friends. It's actually well, no, we are very much sexually attracted to each other and generally attracted to each other but this feeling will always be there even as friends.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that sexual incompatibility in terms of like, what you want to do and what you can do gets in the way, unfortunately,
Chris Moore
Yeah, it's sad, but like, I'm alive, you know, and I'm healthy. So like, I have to, like, remind myself, when I'm feeling those moments where things are quite dark. You know, actually, you know, there's people out there that are - have this illness and don't know they have it, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's quite rare, isn't it? You said.
Chris Moore
Yeah, I don't think there's an official like, in Ireland and England I don't think there's an official sort of like figure, but I want to say that it's 1 in 50,000 people, approximately in the States, but I think it might even be closer to like one in 100,000. But like I think that's general polyposis, I don't even think that's familial where it's passed genetically, because I feel like that adds another layer. It's like if you get polyposis and it's like, I guess, not given to you by a family member - I don't mean that to my mum, I'm sorry, mum - like, it's difficult because you then - it kind of presents issues in the relationships that you have with family and can kind of strengthen it but also throw in some sort of spanners into the dynamic.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I wondered to kind of like round us off, like for anyone who is maybe gay, queer, and also ill as a teenager or a young person, do you have any like, words of advice or comforting words to people who maybe are experiencing something similar or have been through something similar?
Chris Moore
So for me writing the story was very therapeutic. I would say if you need to talk to somebody like - I have at the moment cognitive behavioural therapy, which really, really helps. I think there's such a stigma around therapy, and I need it for me. And I've kind of talked a little bit about the illness as well. And I think sometimes that can really help if you're able to avail of that or just talk to somebody. If you're going to date somebody just remember that like, you know, if there's something that limits your sexual experience, whether it be by illness or not, it is always your decision. And you know, you have a voice. Don't be afraid to say I don't like that or, you know, don't be afraid to be - like if you want to be upfront with someone and that's the best like method for you, then you do that. If you want to wait a couple of days, if you want to wait a while, like nobody can force that information out of you. Just make sure that whatever you're doing, you're looking after can kind of like your physical well being, but also your mental and emotional well being is so important. And don't be afraid to like, yeah, if there's forums and things like that, that you can kind of just get advice. There are definitely forums out there. Depending on the kind of chronic illness you have. Just, it might just be nice to talk to other people and just see how they kind of manage.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've definitely found that helpful, like talking to other people with like a stoma and stuff definitely helps. And thank you, Chris. That's so wonderful. And that's such such great advice as well. What is your book called? And where can people find it? And also, where can people find more of you online?
Chris Moore
So the book is called Gut Feelings. It is a verse novel, and it explores, obviously, my chronic illness and sort of my sexuality. You can buy it - should be able to buy from bookstores, but they're closed. So I'd say like Amazon, Book Depository, Hive. If you can support independents, like Bookshop.org, and particularly Hive, Hive supports independents. And as far as I know, you don't have to spend the minimum to get free standard delivery. So if you could support Hive or Bookshop.org, that would be wonderful. And you can find me - so I'm @YAfictionados on Twitter, and @karmickris on Instagram. I do pole dance so just, yeah, be aware.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, this comes up right at the end? I have more questions!
Chris Moore
Well, actually, funnily enough - I'll say it real quick. But like, yeah, when I lost the swimming, I feel like I took on the pole dancing in my 20s. And it's just been amazing to have something that's so out there and something that I enjoy, and I obviously have to show my body so that means that more people look at my body, but yeah.
Hannah Witton
That is honestly so cool because also, I'm like trying to like, filter through all my memories now and I don't even think I've ever seen a male pole dancer.
Chris Moore
Yeah, there is a lot of them. There's one in particular who just is like, I'll send you like a link, but the name is Dimitry Politov. I believe he's Russian and he does all these flags and stuff. But he does them off like bridges in Europe and like 50 feet up in the air and on the 15th floor of like an apartment block like where if he let go, he'd die. I guess it's insane.
Hannah Witton
Wow, I love that, oh, my goodness. Well, we'll have to check the pole dancing videos, as well as your book, Gut Feelings. Well, thank you so much, Chris. This has been an absolute joy. Thank you for sharing.
Chris Moore
Thank you so much for having me on. And hopefully, people find it useful.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Thank you all for listening. Bye.
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find shownotes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a Global original podcast.