Trans Rights and Transphobia in the British Media with Juno Dawson | Transcript
CW: Transphobia and JK Rowling.
Read the episode shownotes here!
Juno Dawson
So in America, it's just, you know, trans people are scary. They're coming for your children. It's gross and disgusting. It's against the Bible. Whereas in the UK, you've got this kind of much more insidious brand of transphobia this kind of like this debate, the trans debate. So many strawman arguments, you know, you know, Oh, do you support trans people? Yeah. Oh, really? So do you support penises in changing rooms? Wow. You know that I never said anything about that. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies.
Hi, welcome back to Doing It and Happy Pride Month to you all, especially my LGBTQ+, listeners. I am thrilled to be bringing you this episode with one of my favourite people. One of my favourite writers Juno Dawson. A bit of housekeeping before we dive in. This is the last episode in this season. And next week, I'll be doing my usual end of season Q&A. And so if you're listening to this on release day, then please head over to our Instagram Stories to ask your questions about sexuality, relationships, or about podcasting in general, and making this last season and I will do my best to answer them in next week's episode. I really hope that you've enjoyed this season. After the Q&A Episode Next week, we'll be taking a bit of a break because you girl needs some time off. But we've got some exciting changes coming for the next season. And you can keep up to date with all of that and when we'll be back over on our social media.
So content warning for this episode for discussions about transphobia. Please take care of yourself if you need to.
My guest this week Juno is an author and has written many incredible YA fiction and nonfiction books, including This Book is Gay, What's the T?, Wonderland and Clean and The Gender Games which is her adult nonfiction memoir about her experience of coming out as trans as an adult. In this episode, we talk about some of the changes in Juno's life and in UK politics and British media, in terms of trans rights in between the publication of This Book is Gay and What's the T? We talk about Bell vs Tavistock the case that declared young trans people cannot consent to receiving puberty blockers, which is just such a huge setback for trans youth. But thankfully, the decision is being appealed. Juno discusses the current state of healthcare and rights for trans youth and we get into the rampant transphobia in the British media and she who must not be named. We also talk about how language has changed and some of the recent discourse around using the term women but with an X instead of an E. Is it inclusive of trans women? Or is it doing more harm than good? Thank you so much for listening. And thanks so much to Juno for joining me for this episode, our last interview of the season. As usual you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @doingitpodcast. And without further ado, here is the wonderful Juno Dawson.
Hannah Witton
Hello Juno, how are you doing?
Juno Dawson
I'm alright, thank you. How are you?
Hannah Witton
Not bad. And I'm really excited to chat with you. I feel like we've had many conversations over the years. And I just always keep coming back to you because you've got so many wise things say to all of the time.
Juno Dawson
I know it's so funny. I think do you know, I reckon it's about five years since I came on your YouTube channel just after I'd started my transition. And I looked quite precious back then. I was making choices.
Hannah Witton
You weren't out then.
Juno Dawson
Was I not? Oh my gosh. Because for a while we have the same publisher as well, didn't we? So we did just keep seeing each other at sort of publishing. Like back in the days where we could meet in real life. You know, so we our paths just kept crossing constantly and then I definitely came on your channel at one point not long after I'd come out wearing, I remember sort of tottering around London. In this mad dress.
Hannah Witton
You had pleather on I think.
Juno Dawson
That sounds feasible. Yes.
Hannah Witton
Yes loved it. Actually, this kind of like leads quite nicely into my first question for you which is, for you like it could be in your personal life, other than, like, the obvious thing, but also just like generally in society, like what has changed between, like in those years between This Book is Gay, and What's the T?
Juno Dawson
Gosh, so I wrote, What's the T? No. So let's start. Let's go. Let's go chronologically. So This Book is Gay in 2012. And yeah, I was in a completely different place, you know, I had just turned 30, I was going through a breakup. And I was living in London. And it was a funny one. So This Book is Gay, came about at the behest of the publisher, they wanted, like a guide to life for young LGBTQ people. And, and obviously, I was very keen that it wasn't just this book is gay that it had to be this book is lesbian in this book is bi and this book is trans or queer. And so I've met lots and lots of LGBTQ people. And it was through speaking to trans people for that project, that I realised I had much more in common with the trans people than I did with the gay or lesbian people, who by and large, didn't really suffer from any sort of gender dysphoria. And so I was like, right, okay, it's not just that you're attracted to boys is that you also have gender dysphoria. And so it was a really big turning point.
And I mean, since then, This Book is Gay has undergone, I think now, three revisions, just because the world has changed. And yeah, we had to change that book to keep up with it. Like, the first iteration of This Book is Gay didn't mention non binary identities, it had very little, in fact, I don't think we even use the word pansexual the first time out. And there wasn't anything about asexuality. And so we just kept adding to it. And I kept going back to Hot Key Books, the publisher, and saying, Do you mind the next time we do a print run? Do you mind if we just add a little bit. And also, because I was going through a breakup, also I was quite angry. The first version, I was like, 'welcome to being gay. It's shit.' So actually, the most recent version, we did a remix in 2020. And we finally given it a new cover as well, to be more inclusive flag as well, with the, with the trans flag, and with the black and brown stripes on as well. And so it has, that book continued to evolve, it became clear, a couple of years ago, that maybe it was time to have a version that was just about the T part of LGBT. You know, This Book is Gay, was more slanted towards sort of sexual identity. And so I thought well actually I think there is room to have a whole book about gender identity. And also, you know, the conversation has changed, I think, you know, when, when I came out, as trans in 2015, you know, it felt, the world very different. In fact, I felt I was coming out into quite a positive world that was ready for trans people. You know, we'd have Laverne Cox on Time, and Caitlyn Jenner on the front of Vanity Fair. And but unfortunately, you know, as the years have gone by, I started to realise that actually, there's a lot of conversation around trans people, and particularly trans youth, and a lot of people talking about trans youth, and we're never talking to trans youth. And so that's why I wanted to write What's the T?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And do you think that it actually was kind of the way that it is now, in 2015, when you're coming out, and you just didn't see it, then? Or do you think that it actually has gotten worse?
Juno Dawson
I think both. I think on one hand, of course, I wasn't experiencing transphobia. Because I wasn't trans. You know, one of the misconceptions is this notion that you know, in 2015, I became trans whereas actually of course, I was trans the day I was born. Because as soon as I was born, people started treating me as if I was a boy. And so all through my childhood, I was experiencing dysphoria and sort of asking my mum when I was going to turn into a girl, but it's, you know, and before I actually started having the, you know, the conversations with my friends and family in 2012. So actually, there was a lot going on behind the scenes that people didn't see. But no, I hadn't experienced actual transphobia until, you know, I started presenting as Juno and kind of wearing clothes that you would traditionally assign to women. Now, this is of course, one of you know, it's such bollocks. You know, I was literally wearing cotton fabrics, you know, pre transition, I was also wearing cotton fabrics.
Hannah Witton
We assign like meaning and value to these inanimate objects.
Juno Dawson
And it's ridiculous and I think it doesn't matter whether you're trans or not, if you are, if you are anyone who is defying gender norms, you can run into transphobia in the street. So I started to, you know, from out, right, you know, I remember once I was in a train carriage with a group of men going into Waterloo, and you know, it got really scary, they were like, what’s under your dress love and stuff, really horrible stuff, to just people staring, you know, and, you know, sometimes actually, it was just the people staring that was the worst of all. But at the same time that I was going through it, the environment in the UK has, without question gotten worse. I think, you know, we're really up against it with, with the media and, and, of course, the media is both the message and the messenger, then so, you know, almost daily, the newspapers are telling people in the United Kingdom, that this is something you should be worried about, when, of course, you know, trans people have been here forever. It's just that within the last four or five years, for whatever reason, particularly The Times has really decided that, you know, you know.
Hannah Witton
Now is the time to have a big debate about it.
Juno Dawson
Right. It's so mad it's just, and I think, I mean, yeah, we could we could really dissect why, I think we'd be here forever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I don't have like a media degree, I feel like I would need to kind of really like, understand because like, why is it happening here? And then like, I feel like American friends of mine are like, What on earth is going on? And like, normally, I'm always like, well, at least it's not as bad as it is in the US. For with this. It's like the other way around, and like what's going on?
Juno Dawson
Well, I think, in the broadest possible terms, I think in America, you truly have like a two party system, whereby Republicans behave like Republicans, so that at the moment, we are seeing some real issues for trans youth in America at the moment with these kind of bills, they're constantly trying to pass bills, banning young trans people from accessing medical care, banning them from playing college sports, all kinds of these bills. But the Democrats are acting as you'd expect Democrats. So they're inclusive and tolerant, and they're trying to make life better for trans or non binary people. Whereas in the UK, and our politics, we have this very sort of murky sort of centre right, that could be applied almost to both Labour and the Conservatives. So yes, of course, the Conservatives aren't going to do LGBT people, any favours, the clues in the name, they're conservative. But the problem is we have some quite high powered people within the Labour Party or the Green Party, for that matter, who have taken this quite sort of middle class, intellectual opposition to trans people. So in America, it's just, you know, trans people are scary, they're coming for your children. It's gross and disgusting. It's against the Bible. Whereas in the UK, you've got this kind of much more insidious brand of transphobia this kind of like this debate, the trans debate. So many strawman arguments, you know, you know, Oh, do you support trans people? Yeah. Oh, really? So do you spot penises in changing rooms? Wow. What the fuck? You know that I never said anything about that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Juno Dawson
So do you support mutilating children? What the fuck? I just said we held trans kids at school. Like how on earth?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Juno Dawson
And so we've kind of got this real sort of what-about-ery. And this, you know, quite philosophical debate of what is a woman you know, what is a man? What is the woman? Sex based rights.
Hannah Witton
It's like what you said it's that intellectualising and that philosophising of it, rather than kind of what politics should be, it's just like, okay, there are people suffering, how do we help them?
Juno Dawson
And, you know, I come from a generation where the Labour Party was supposed to represent workers and of course, trans people are continually discriminated against in the workplace. You know, and that's why the Labour Party when you when you hear it, dithering on things like sex workers rights, trans rights, you're like, these people are workers. The Labour Party should be the home, you know, it should be their safe political haven, and as should the Green Party, but suddenly, it's not always working out that way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Juno Dawson
So I think, you know, we have an issue. We definitely have an issue with journalists in the UK as well. I think we have an issue with some traditionally liberal journalists who have a real blind spot when it comes to trans people, and they don't like being called out. And so you have an a generation of, sort of slightly older sort of middle age journalists who are... they've had their whole careers being applauded for being liberal. And then all of a sudden when they're coming in and saying, Well, actually, I think that, you know, trans women shouldn't be in women's prisons, and people are calling them TERFs or transphobes or bigots. They freak out and they're doubling down. And rather than saying, Oh my gosh, you're right, that was quite prejudiced view. They're being almost radicalised. And I think that's what we've seen in this four year period, we've kind of seen a faction of the British media become really radicalised on trans issues, and you know, anything, obviously, we've seen with some really big names when you look at JK Rowling, you know, she basically described how she became radicalised.
Hannah Witton
Yeah it was the blueprint.
Juno Dawson
Yeah it really was it is was the blueprint. Well, I went online, and I spoke some really hardline sort of anti-trans feminists, I realised, Oh, my gosh, trans people are a danger they should be worried about, you know, and that was, you know, if, if that had been about kind of, you know, Muslims or Jewish people, you know, can you imagine, I don't think that JK Rowling would have been writing a 4000 word essay describing her radicalisation.
Hannah Witton
But also, that's a really interesting point of that, like, we don't have the same collective horror. Like, obviously, there are a lot of people who do support trans rights who see that kind of stuff and read her essay, and were horrified and rightly so. But like, collectively, in the same way, like you said, like, if someone had published something like that about black people, or about Jewish people, or about, like gay people, like would have been like, what, like, collectively as a society, you'd hope that everyone just be like, completely horrified by it. But instead, she won an award.
Juno Dawson
I know that was outrageous. Because I think the media, so the other problem that we have in the British media is we also have a lot of cronyism. So the problem is we don't have nearly enough women journalists full stop, but they're all mates. And that's why we have this real sort of monolithic British press. Because we have a group of people who have been don't get me wrong, these women had a real struggle to break into the industry. And in the 90s, they imagine they had to deal with all kinds of gross misogyny, in newsrooms, both on television and in the print media. But the problem is, they haven't left the ladder down. They haven't left the ladder down for young women of colour, young trans women, young gay women who desperately need, we need their voices in the British media, but there isn't a space for them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Juno Dawson
And that's kind of, that's part of a bigger question around misogyny and sexism in the media as well. But they've, you know, they've set the tone. And so, you know, the problem is, a lot of those journalists are friends with JK Rowling, you know, they know JK Rowling. So it's kind of, there's been a, and we saw this, you know, this is possibly me burning a bridge to my own publisher. But, you know, we saw yesterday, the head of my publisher, really kind of, you know, forming, you know, an apology around transphobia. And then I think in the UK, there are certain debates, which, you know, are valid, which I think particularly around trans lives, I think around Muslims, I think around immigrants, there is still this very unpleasant conversation around immigration in the UK. And I think around Gypsy and Roma people as well. You know, I think in the press, we're allowed to talk about those minority groups in a way that no other minority group would be talked about.
Hannah Witton
And it doesn't include them in the conversation at all.
Juno Dawson
Never. But I mean, mixed with that at the same time, you know, we live, we have a really far right government at the moment, you know, when you when you read descriptions of Britain from outside Britain, we are described in the same breath as Donald Trump in the same breath as Brazil or Hungary where they also have far right governments and you know, it's only because we have a media that is very forgiving of our government that actually we get this very sort of soft, soft approach in talking about sleaze you know, it's corruption, let's just call it what it is. We have a very corrupt government. And so it's um, yeah, it's it's a bit of a hellscape at the moment and of course with the pandemic, we can't leave.
Hannah Witton
And Brexit, you can't leave.
Juno Dawson
Can't even go to Europe now. You've got to laugh because otherwise you would just howl, howl into the rain.
Hannah Witton
It's true, humour is our escape. One of the things that I really loved that you included in What's the T is this like language history lesson, and I would love you to talk about that because the way that language evolves, always fascinates me so much. And actually, after I read it, I went on to do you know, the Google Ingram?
Juno Dawson
I do not.
Hannah Witton
It basically like all of the books on Google Books, and it's a massive database. And you could search for words, and it'll show you over a period of time, like from like, 1800, how often that word appears in books, in the books on Google Books. And so after I read that bit in What's the T?, I was like, Oh, I wonder what... you can compare words as well. So I compared transgender and transsexual and you've got like this spike, like transsexual comes, like, starts being written about in books from like, the mid 20th century. And then it plateaus and early 2000s transgender takes off. Yeah, so I just, and I love that like visual representation of it. Yeah, I would love to hear about yeah, the language piece around to how we talk about gender.
Juno Dawson
Because so that is, I think, important, because one of the big gotchas that transphobes love is that it's like a new social contagion, kind of that, you know, before YouTube, there was no such thing as trans people. And then of course, that's absolutely not true. And the best way to prove that is to look at where terms like transgender, cisgender, transsexual have been used. And, you know, I really love on a personal level, going back through trans history, and I would really recommend Christine Burns' book, Trans Britain, which is a real deep dive on the evidence, you know, because Christine is a historian. So she really looks at the evidence that trans people have existed. There's the very famous case of Eleanor Rykener, who, you know, was a trans sex worker from medieval times. And so, you know, it's, um, you know, we've always been here, you know, I think somebody was sharing something on Twitter the other day about left handedness, and how, for a really, really long time, being left handed was treated like, it was an offense to God somehow. There was some words in the Bible around how using your left hand was, was inappropriate and so left handed children were trained to use their right hand. Now, funnily enough, as people moved away from Bible teaching, guess what spiked, left handedness. So it wasn't that there were fewer left handed people, it's just that once public shame around left handedness dropped off, you saw it spike. And I think we're seeing the same thing now with trans people. So it's not that there are more trans people than ever, it's that there is less shame than ever. So more trans people just feel emboldened to come out. But unfortunately, what that has meant is that we need an urgent conversation around, particularly healthcare for trans people, because the system is not equipped to deal with the numbers.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I was gonna ask about that as well. Because obviously, so What's the T? is a YA book, it's aimed at young people. And so what, what can a young trans person expect? Like when they're figuring out their gender? And if they decide to come out and want to transition? What health care is there available to them? What rights do they have? Because obviously, we also just had like Bell Tavistock ruling about puberty blockers as well.
Juno Dawson
It's really scary time at the moment. It's, and things are quite scaring in America as well. But that was, I mean, it was a clusterfuck, so there isn't really any other way to describe it. And I think in this country, especially after the year, we've had, you know, I don't want to come on here and be critical of the NHS because we are so lucky to have an NHS and it is truly the best thing.
Hannah Witton
We can be critical of the things we love.
Juno Dawson
We can I think that's true. And I think on this case, it is simply not fit for purpose, and, you know, there has been a catalogue of disasters around the Tavistock and Portman, including data leaks, you know, the fact that as soon as Bell, Keira Bell, won her case, they, the Tavistock just stopped giving kids care, which, to me feels, that that felt really hugely unprofessional and dangerous for those young people who had been on waitlists for a very long time. And it kind of, you know, really hinged their esteem on receiving that care and I remember when I was on a waitlist, way back when, you know, it was really difficult for my mental health because it just feels like you can't get started without that help. And you know, in the end, I actually got a private prescription because I was an adult, so I was able to start treatment privately and then the NHS picked it up a bit later. So at the moment, I can't really sit here in good faith and say this is what will happen to a trans teenager if they come out the because they keep changing things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Juno Dawson
Now, actually, as it is the NHS Tavistock, who have a trans youth centre they've appealed and they've been given the right to appeal the Bell case. I mean, for listeners who don't know what the Bell case is all about it was a young woman who actually transitioned as an adult. But...
Hannah Witton
Oh really?
Juno Dawson
Oh, yes. So this law, this change in law wouldn't have protected Keira Bell anyway, that's the real twist. So Keira Bell was actually 18, before she received any treatment anyway, and she felt that there weren't enough checks and balances given before she was allowed to initiate treatment, and now she kind of regrets undergoing some surgery. And of course, she's become she has been, you know, embraced by, you know, by a transphobic movement as a real poster child.
Hannah Witton
The love the minority of examples of people detransitioning.
Juno Dawson
Yeah, oh my god, and like the 2% of people detransition and very often when you speak to detransitioners, it's not that they're not trans, it's just that they don't feel emotionally able to go through it, and that they haven't got the support of their parents or partners. And actually, it's just easier for them to not transition. So it's not that they don't suffer from gender dysphoria. It's not that they don't identify as a girl or as a boy. It's just that they feel they can't go on the journey.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Which if anything is just more evidence for an improvement of this system and for trans rights.
Juno Dawson
For sure yeah, just and as well I always think as well, but you know, medical transition is not the only way to transition. You know, if you, you know, both you and I know Lex Croucher and Lex Croucher has talked a lot about their gender on their social media of late, you know, and they're figuring out their journey. But I don't think that journey is going to involve a bunch of hormones and surgeries and stuff. And so I think what we need is we need a young person's NHS service that all young people can access, if they're suffering from dysphoria, that gives them time and space to sort of talk about what it is they want and what it is they need. But the problem is the gargantuan wait lists are causing such distress. But we do see a lot of young people struggling with substance misuse, with homelessness, with self harm. And so we really got to, it's I think it's the waitlist honestly, that's affecting these young people. So I think what we need is we need to make sure, and I think we could apply this to young people with eating disorders as well. We just need young people to be seen much, much faster by specialists.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Juno Dawson
And that way, you know, we could just have that dialogue with them and say, What's your goal? You know, is this just about you, you want to change your name and pronouns? Do you want puberty blockers? And puberty blockers, I will say, you know, much is said about, you know, how they're off brand. But no, it's not an experimental treatment. It's just that it's normally a treatment that we give to... the medication is for various things, and it's used on kids as well. It's used on kids who go into puberty to soon. So it's given it's given to children actually stop them from going into puberty, precociously. But that's true of a lot of things, a lot of medications that we take that they were designed for one thing, but they have an application in another one. So one of the medications that I take, for example, is actually a cancer drug that has, you know, the effect of feminising my body so um, you know, great.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it's the same with like some HRT like was originally designed for treating menopause symptoms. And if you are somebody going through menopause, you can just like call up your GP and like bish, bash, bosh - get a prescription for HRT, if you're trans, if you're trans woman who wants to go on the exact same medication, loops and red tape...
Juno Dawson
Oh my god, two doctors, four year waitlist for what is HRT. And I love that. There was a couple of years back, well, it was around Brexit time, there was this real consternation and concern that we weren't going to be able to get HRT. And as trans women, we were very quiet because oh, my God, if the press get hold of this, you know, they're going to have a field day with, you know, kind of, you know, trans women can't transition but also it meant that people who were taking it for menopause, similarly couldn't get hold of their medication. So it became quite a big deal. And, oh, it's mad. It's just mad. But it's so it's well, on one hand, you know, I had huge sympathy with the Tavistock on the other hand, it does need to be much, much better. What I will say, for trans people, for young trans people, is that you've got time and you know, and that there is support out there, and there are things you can do. We still, there's still, and this is, it's difficult because young, younger trans people can still access private treatment. But of course, that's only available for the wealthiest people or the sort of, like middle class kids kind of. So yeah, we need, it needs urgent, urgent reform. But it's a shame that the Bell case kind of really complicated matters, because no one was denying, actually, that the youth service did need some reform. But what of course, the people surrounding Keira Bell are saying is that we just don't think children should be able to transition.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it was specifically about accessing puberty blockers. So it wasn't actually about taking any different hormones that would change your body. It was about delaying puberty.
Juno Dawson
This is medication that we've been giving to children for a really long time. It's kind of it's, this is nothing new. In fact the Tavistock has been I think, prescribing it since the mid 90s. You know, this is nothing wild. And puberty blockers, you know, it's funny, because they said, you know, nearly all trans kids who take puberty blockers go on to transition. And they took that as some sort of, as something bad.
Hannah Witton
Like it's a gateway drug.
Juno Dawson
But yeah it's just that trans kids become trans adults.
Hannah Witton
They got it right.
Juno Dawson
Well done, well done everyone, well done doctors, you succeeded. And yeah, I mean, just to reiterate, you know, detransitioners makeup, I think it's less than 1% of all trans people. And it's a very misleading term, I think as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What would you use instead? Are there alternatives?
Juno Dawson
So in medicine, you refer to it often as there is lots of surgical regret, and they look at something called regret rates. So that is the measure of success of anything. But regret rates are way, way higher for things like boob jobs knows jobs, you know, regret rates tend to be much, much higher for those things. So actually, regret rates around gender affirming surgeries are actually much, much lower than average. And, but so I think, you know, with anything, when you've gone down a medical pathway, there will always be some people who regret that. But mostly for trans people it's, it's less than your average.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a really good comparison to make as well, puts it in perspective. Yeah. I want to just to circle back to the language thing, because actually, there's some conversations online that I was reading about recently, about the term women with an X instead of an E. And I remember...
Juno Dawson
I just posted something on Instagram literally five minutes ago.
Hannah Witton
Oh really? I would love to hear your thoughts on it because I remember when I first came across that term, it was very much like talking about women, but without it being like with without men being in the picture. So it'd been, like a feminist, like reclaiming kind of notion. My first like, introduction to that was actually probably through like, second wave feminism, when they would use Y, like womyn. But yeah, more recently, I've heard people saying that actually, using anything other than just women spelt, the way that we've always spelt women is exclusionary to trans people.
Juno Dawson
I think that, so that's become, it's one of those things that has become an issue. So yeah, originally woman, or women with a with an X or a Y did stem from some 1970s feminism in a way to kind of remove man or men from the word kind of there was about really removing women from men. And then, you know, when women with an X started being used a lot, I initially saw it as a positive thing, because it was inclusive of non binary people as well. Because a non binary person wouldn't class themselves necessarily as a woman. And in the same way that you see around the internet, you'll see people using Latinx as well to remove the Latino or Latina, you can have Latinx. So that includes everyone, including non binary people. However, the other one and I talked about this in the book as well. It's about the use and you will always see transphobes online using the word 'transwoman'. All one word.
Hannah Witton
Ooh yeah.
Juno Dawson
And it's a way to slyly acknowledge that I will not refer to those people as a woman. And you saw this with JK Rowling tweeting, you know, a Wumben Wimpund Woomud? Oh calm down. You know, so it's become, it's become a way to other trans people now. And it's a shame because a lot of people use it really trying to be inclusive. And like, for example, I use a trendy workspace in Brighton kind of where I do most of my writing. And it's a gender neutral toilet. I mean, gonna get it done, don't tell The Times, don't tell The Times! So we have a gender neutral bathroom, but in some of them just because men were weeing on the seats, basically. So they've dedicated some of the cubicles in the gender neutral to women only. And they painted on the door women with an X. And that's because they were trying to include trans and non binary people. But unfortunately, it has become slightly, it is now used as a weapon against trans people. Yeah, it's a shame. It's a shame because, you know, it could have been a really positive thing. But now...
Hannah Witton
Because the case should be that when you say women spelt with an E, that it does include trans women, like that should just be the default. And so yeah, I understand that it's like people trying to signify like, oh, when I say this, I am including trans women, but then it's like, why can't trans women also just be included under just women?
Juno Dawson
Well, exactly that. And so I think like, I don't need a special word for woman because I'm just a woman. But I do acknowledge as well like, you know, that I'm, you know, I've gone through quite an old fashioned transition and I did go down the medical route. I've gone down the legal route, I have a passport and I got a new birth certificate. Legally I've been through the gender recognition council so I'm legally, not only am I a woman now but I was always a woman. However, it's not that simple for some people. And so woman with an X might make a non binary person or a gender fluid person feel more included?
Hannah Witton
Or not as well, because I was like also thinking like, would... if they're non binary, they're non binary, they're not woman with an X.
Juno Dawson
Wo-mix-n. And I also, I just think it's naff. There you go. That's my, Juno Dawson's, hot take on woman with an X. I just think it's a bit naff. Personally, that is my personal opinion, I think it's a bit naff.
Hannah Witton
I think that is completely valid. I have questions for you from Instagram. Excellent. So this first one I wanted to ask you because you are also now an actor, actress. Everyone uses actor now to mean like, everyone, I don't I don't know what....
Juno Dawson
Yeah, I think yeah, it's the PC although I know lots of actresses who still use actress but, you know, it's a personal call, isn't it?
Hannah Witton
So this person said, should only transgender actors play trans characters?
Juno Dawson
I think yeah, because there are so many trans actors out there, that struggle to get work. And, you know, and I remember this was going back, well I won't say who it is. It might become clear, but I was having a conversation with quite a famous person about an adaptation which needed a trans character. And I could say, look, would you cast a white person to play a black role? And the horror in the room like, Oh, my God, no. And I was like now well, it's kind of the same thing because again, with... Twofold really, which is a cisgender woman isn't going to quite understand what it is a trans woman has been through, you know, they can do their research, and they can read up, and speak to trans women. And that is part of what an actor does, you know, you're pretending to be someone else and pretending to have struggles that you might not necessarily have been through. But for me, the worst example, so that's why actually, I will sit and watch Transamerica with Felicity Huffman. Or why actually I didn't hate Rebecca Romijn playing Alexis Meade in Ugly Betty, that never bugged me too much. Because at least you know, there's a recognition that that's a woman, and we have cast a woman to play a woman albeit a trans woman. What really boils my piss is when they cast a cisgender man because...
Hannah Witton
To play a trans woman?
Juno Dawson
To play a trans woman. So we're talking Jared Leto in Dallas Buyers Club, or Eddie Redmayne in The Danish Girl.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Juno Dawson
Because as a trans woman, you're really fighting against this idea that you're a man in a wig. And when you continually see a man in a wig, playing a trans woman...
Hannah Witton
And that's what the audience is seeing as well, because they know who that actor is, they recognise that actor.
Juno Dawson
Of course. And so it just doesn't help. So I think it's actively, furthers the prejudice and discrimination that trans women in particular face. And of course, you know, Scarlett Johansson very wisely stepped away from playing a trans man after she got some flack.
Hannah Witton
I didn't even realise she was asked.
Juno Dawson
Yeah, she was, she got cast she was gonna play a quite famous guy in a film called Rub & Tug. But she stepped back after an outcry online. And she's acknowledged that, you know, we've moved on. And I think now we know I think there has been so much backlash to cis people playing trans people that I think we've moved on now.
Hannah Witton
So much backlash and so many Oscars.
Juno Dawson
The same conversation keeps happening. And I think that strangely Eddie Redmayne will be the last person to get off scot free. I think people were a bit on the fence with it. And actually, it was Alicia Vikander that won the Oscar, not him.
Hannah Witton
Good for her. She's great.
Juno Dawson
But Jared Leto did indeed win an Oscar for playing a trans woman but I don't think that would happen now. And as well, we're becoming acquainted with some fantastic trans actors. You know, Laverne Cox is in Promising Young Woman.
Hannah Witton
Although they did not do her justice in that film. I liked that film. I know, it's had a lot of controversy. But they wasted her.
Juno Dawson
Yeah, I mean, it was it was a one person movie, wasn't it and Carey Mulligan was great, but everybody else was was there to round out the cast I think. Although, I quite fancy Bo Burnham. I didn't know who Bo Burnham was before.
Hannah Witton
What!? Oh my god. I can't, I can't anytime someone says that they don't know who he is. I'm like, right. I'm ready to give you your Bo Burnham education. There's a lot of content for us to get through Juno.
Juno Dawson
He's cute. Yeah. And but yeah, I mean, I'm excited. I'm excited to see what the cast of Pose do next. And I've just seen, I'm friends with another writer called Alice Oseman, who has just cast her show Heartstopper for Netflix, which has this cute up and coming trans actress call Yasmin Finney.
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah because there's a trans girl character in that book. I love Heartstopper.
Juno Dawson
I love Heartstopper as well, I think it's really powerful to see just queer people in love. I think it's, there's something about seeing it, you can read about it, but I think there's something about seeing it that's really moving.
Hannah Witton
And also just like, it's also just so well written and so well drawn that I'm like, I'm taken back to like being my teenage self and just like those feelings of having a crush and like hanging on their every word, and it's just like heart palpitations. It's like a physical experience reading that. It's so good.
Juno Dawson
Because I mean, it's kind of - because I, I'm always - I write quite big sort of plotted books, but I quite like them. They're just very quiet and I think there's room in YA, or in television, there's room - there's room for everything. There's room for big sort of Shadow and Bone stuff. There's also room for just quiet little love stories as well.
Hannah Witton
I love stories. Somebody asked - this is on a completely different topic. Did you lose any friends during your transition?
Juno Dawson
No. My friends have been amazing. But you know, so I started my transition when I was about 29. So quite late, you know, sort of comparatively. And so by 29 I'd weeded out all the shit friends. I think that's what your 20s are for, you know, you just you realize which ones you're done with and which ones are your like, your forever friends.
Hannah Witton
I think the pandemic has also done that.
Juno Dawson
100% Yeah. I mean, you know, if you kept up Zooms with those people, they are going to be your friends for life. Because if you are willing to tolerate online fun, then...
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Tolerate online fun!
Juno Dawson
Oh, I mean, do you know, sometimes even that I'd love them so much. It's kind of like when you've been on Zoom all day, and then you're kind of just like, oh my god. But it is - I mean, God. I think everybody appreciates that struggle, but yeah, no, my friends have all been properly wonderful. Really, really amazing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, I love that for you.
Juno Dawson
Me too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Somebody asked: how to get over the nerves of having gender affirming surgeries like FFS and GRS, which I have to say I've no idea what they stand for. And they've just said, "I'm nervous."
Juno Dawson
Aw. FFS is facial feminization surgery. And I'm guessing GRS is genital reconstructive surgery. Although they change acronyms so much that it's hard to tell. Um, surgery is really scary. What I would say - my issue and something that I've learned is give yourself time to heal. I was I was so ready. You know, I remember after I'd had my face done. And like the next day, I was like sat up in bed with my laptop trying to submit copy for my final Glamour column. And I sent it to my editor and she very politely sent it back and said, "You might just want to read about this in a week or two. Just take some time." And when I when I looked back, it was honestly like stream of consciousness. Like it was almost like speaking in tongues. And I remember even my housemate, who - my housemate is quite, you know, he's not shy of work. In the end, he said, you have got to take it easy on yourself, like, will you please go to bed? I was up and about trying to walk the dog and, you know, just mad mad stuff. And so the surgery, the surgery's fine because you'll be unconscious. You will remember none of it. None of it. It will be a dim and distant past. But afterwards, I put a lot of pressure on myself to get better - like and actually it was, you know, I needed a good month or two to recover properly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I've not been through gender affirming surgeries, but I have had physical surgery and can confirm, rest. recover. Yeah, make sure to, like have people around you who will hold you accountable to rest.
Juno Dawson
And it's also give yourself permission. You know, very, very rarely in life, will you just be given a big chunk of time to catch up on all those novels you pretended you read but actually haven't ever read? *whispers* Handmaid's Tale. I have now read but for many years that was the novel I claimed to have read that I've never read.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love that.
Juno Dawson
But you know, read those novels, watch that boxset that you think you've left too late again, for me, it was Mad Men. You know, it was too late for me and Mad Men, but actually it's never too late. It's never too late.
Hannah Witton
Maybe I need to go have another surgery because I've got Mad Men and Breaking Bad are the ones that I'm like, I've haven't seen them, and it's too late.
Juno Dawson
I haven't seen either. I think it might be too late. And I've never seen Sopranos either.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, Sopranos, The Wire. Like all of these like classic -
Juno Dawson
Although those are - they're all silly boy shows. You'll notice we've both just given a list of shows that your boyfriend tries to make you watch.
Hannah Witton
There's the ones that my dad recommends!
Juno Dawson
There you go. I tell you what, you watch that when your dad watches Sex in the City, there you go. From the beginning.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love your Sex in the City podcast. Are you still doing that?
Juno Dawson
Yeah, we're on hiatus at the moment. But Dylan and I are going to get back together and start on season four.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. So I gave up actually watching the show halfway into season three, because I could not stand Carrue anymore. I know - I can't remember what number episode it was. But there was a scene with Carrie and Miranda. They were going shopping. And Carrie was like, talking about probably Mr. Big or whatever his name is, saying like, oh blah blah blah or something or other. And Miranda told her off. Miranda was being a good friend and was just like, shut the fuck up. You're being an idiot. And Carrie would not listen to her. And I was like, I'm done. I can't. Anyway, there's our little Sex and the City tangent.
Juno Dawson
So yeah, that's why I picked Sex in the City, not because it's the ultimate show that all women have seen. But I literally run a podcast on Sex and The City. It's called So I Got To Thinking. Check it out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely do I love like modern day analysis of like, things from the 90s. And just being like, right, how does this hold up? What does it tell us?
Juno Dawson
None of them. And you know, we could have done it for Friends. We could have probably done it for Buffy, you know, none of those shows are, you know, where we are now in terms of their sort of like inclusivity.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for sure. Somebody asked how to love yourself when you're years away from transition goals like surgery.
Juno Dawson
I found it really helpful to take control. Because I think sometimes the anxiety feel is that sense of being out of control. And so I had about a 10 month - so I mean, my God by now I would have been waiting years for my first appointment. But I had about 10 months wait. And so in that time I did things that I could do. So I started growing my hair, I got - I dyed it bright orange, which was again, not the one, I got my ears pierced. I started again, having, you know, I was in a financial position to be able to afford to have some laser so I started having laser hair removal. So there are lots of little ways that you can take control. And you can start as well. There are things like, you know, you don't need a doctor to apply for a new passport and a new driving license. S there's a lot of admin that you can do as well.
Hannah Witton
Does it complicate things if you have a different gender on your passport than like before medically transitioning? Or does that not matter?
Juno Dawson
No. So what I think you do is you need a letter from your GP to say that you're on the waitlist basically because for fraud reasons, you can see why they wouldn't want people changing their passports every two weeks. So basically what they're saying is from your doctor they're saying that it's likely to be a permanent change. So so I think that was all I needed with with some, you know, some sort of ID and that's again something you know, all this fuss around sort of trans children and oh, you know, self ID. Trans people have self IDed since the beginning of time. It's not like you're selected like in the Hunger Games, you know, any trans person has self identified as a trans person, every gay person has self identified as a gay person, every Muslim has self identified as a Muslim. Again, it's just the trans people that they have a problem with. But you know, you can, you can make a start on all that life admin stuff, you know, when you go to the bank and say, "Oh, by the way, my name is Juno now, and I'm a woman," nobody's going to be like What? I need to see your doctor's note, you know, they don't care.
Hannah Witton
No, that's really great advice actually, like, there are lots of things that will still be in your control.
Juno Dawson
It feels, you know, like, the worst thing in the world. And this sense of time running out, it feels like if you don't, if you've don't kind of get - for me, the big psychological thing was getting started on my hormones, you know, and it just couldn't come fast enough. But the tea is, you know, I've been on the hormones now for what, six years, nearly, you know, my boobs, I think, have just stopped growing. So it's not - and also some of that could be some of that could be lockdown weight, if I'm honest. But um, you know, it's kind of, it's a, it's a long, long process, nothing happens quickly in transition. Nothing happens particularly quickly in life. One of the things I get asked about a lot from young people, I get emails saying, you know, kind of, how can I make my parents fine with me being gay or lesbian or bi or trans? And I'm like, well, when did you tell them? And they're like, last week. And like, you might need a while, you know, this might take a year, this might take two years, it might take 10 years. But the thing is, you have your whole life. And that's why I'm always saying, you know, to young LGBT people who are in crisis, which is stick around, stick around, because you know, you're in it for the long haul, you know, and that's, you know, it's become such a catchphrase, but it gets better.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's a catchphrase for a reason. Yes. Somebody asked, and we haven't really talked about dating or sex but I'm just gonna throw you into the deep end of this question. Someone asked, I fantasize and want to give oral sex to pre op trans women and receive anal penetration. Am I still heterosexual? And this is a cis man.
Juno Dawson
Okay. I think the answer is your sexual identity is forever yours to define. Again self ID, you get to decide how you want to identify. However, you know, for example, this is going to blow the mind of the Daily Mail. You know, sometimes cisgender women put things in their boyfriend's bottoms, be it, you know, the kids are calling it pegging. You know, whether it's a sex toy, or whether it's a finger or you know, or more than a finger, you know, and I don't think, you know, if a cisgender woman is putting a cisgender to finger up a cisgender man's bottom, I don't think that's going to make anyone gay.
Hannah Witton
No. I love the idea of a cisgender finger.
Juno Dawson
You know, and so I think it's totally, it's totally down for them. And I think, what's really interesting to me, if I can tell you now with 100% certainty, that my gay friends who are attracted to men would have no interest in me whatsoever. You know, it just wouldn't happen. And so I think, you know, the men that I have dated in the last six years have been I would say like, 80% straight, and the other 20% would describe themselves as bi or queer. And, again, that's because, you know, no one gets to decide how you identify except you, so I would just say to that person, don't sweat it, babes.
Hannah Witton
Don't sweat it, babes. Yeah. And I think it kind of brought up something else for me as well, which is like the the kind of like, fantasy element of it, of like, are you fantasizing - is it about the genitals like specifically or are you also potentially could be attracted to, like, a trans woman for who she is? Right. Because there is a lot of fetishization.
Juno Dawson
100%. Yeah. And that can be, you know, a bit of a Debbie Downer when they realize that we're just women. Like, how awful.
Hannah Witton
You don't fulfil this fantasy for me, why? You're just a woman?
Juno Dawson
I know, I mean it's so funny. And I think sort of, you know, I would say that this is part of the issue as well, which is that some cis men's experience of trans women has been through sex workers, and of course, sex workers are happy to talk about sex because they're sex workers. Whereas, you know, I also have, you know, a house to run and a dog and a business and you know, all these other things. So, you know, there is so much more to a trans person than just their sex life. It's just one part of their life. And so trans men and trans women, while some people do fantasize about us, be prepared to deal with a human who comes with all the baggage that any other human would come with, probably more because we're also dealing with transphobia. So,.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, on top of it all. Well Juno, thank you so much. You're so wonderful. Please, please plug away where people can find you online and all of your books and your acting, all of that good stuff.
Juno Dawson
I think, I think I might be done with acting for now. I think I've left Holby City in the past but um, What's The T is out now, it's now available in all good bookshops after a pandemic, bookshops are back open. And I am on social media just as Juno Dawson. Wonderful.
Hannah Witton
Wonderful.
Juno Dawson
Thank you!
Hannah Witton
Thank you so so much. And thank you all for listening.
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it. If you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a Global original podcast