Sodomy, Sex Work and Sex Toys in the Middle Ages with Dr. Eleanor Janega | Transcript
Read the episode shownotes here!
Dr Eleanor Janega
You have the unfun penis in vagina sex with your husband because you know like that's what's probably going to get you pregnant. And that's the one that you'd like you do, you know, for family and God and like King and Country blah blah blah. That's the kind of, that's the sort of sex you have for that. And the fun sex is everything else. And the church is absolutely desperate in the Middle Ages to get everyone to knock off all the sodomy. They're like, God dammit, I, like, just no, hey, God only likes p in v.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. So some of you may know that I studied history at university. And it was during that three years that I got a taste of the history of sex and quickly became obsessed. And so I love when I get to explore sexual history on this podcast with some incredible experts. And today, I am thrilled to have Dr. Eleanor Janega joining me.
You may know Eleanor from her Twitter account and blog, Going Medieval. She's a historian specializing in sexuality, apocalyptic thought, society, propaganda, and the urban experience in the late medieval period. And she also teaches at the London School of Economics. Her first general audience book, which basically means a book for us non academic types, is out now. And it is called The Middle Ages: A Graphic Guide. And it is graphic in both senses of the word. The Middle Ages is often a very misunderstood time so I was very excited to dive into this conversation with Eleanor. We talk about the origins of sex negative Christianity, how people in medieval Europe perceived female sexuality, sodomy, sex work and queer people. We created a new game show that I want to exist called, what's the medieval deal with blank, such as sexualizing fruits, pubic hair, oral sex - what is the medieval deal with these things? And we talk about everything going on in the medieval times from conceptions of marriage and love to dildos and strap ons. So strap yourself in for this episode, I learned so much and absolutely loved nerding out with Eleanor about sexual history, and what kinds of lessons we can take from how people were bonking in the past and apply to our 21st century ideas of sex and relationships.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast, you can support the podcast by becoming a member of The Common Room over on my Patreon, where you can chat with other sex curious folks and get early and ad free episodes, as well as bonus content and livestreams. Okay, so now strap in for this episode with the incredible Eleanor Janega. Eleanor, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to talk with you about sex and history. My favourite things. Although my like knowledge of sex history is mostly like, early modern, and like 19th century, but you're a medieval historian.
Dr Eleanor Janega
That's right, yeah.
Hannah Witton
So I feel like I need to like contextualize everything first. So first of all, like, what is the Middle Ages? And where? And then how do we know about sex in the Middle Ages? So I feel like we need to like establish those two questions first, before we then go into what we know.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, so very, very good questions, because a lot of people tend to think that Middle Ages just means like old. So like sometimes I'll encounter, for example, people saying things about like the Middle Ages, and they'll be talking about like the 18th century? And I'm like, no, not a chance.
Hannah Witton
No.
Dr Eleanor Janega
But what we kind of mean by Middle Ages, is we mean from kind of like the fall of Western Rome's about 475. To - it's hard to say exactly what the end is. But like -
Hannah Witton
The printing press.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, it's like the - are we gonna say the printing press? Are we going to say like, the Columbian Exchange and Europeans like going to the New World? Are we going to say Martin Luther? Like, what are we going to say, you know, so all of those things are kind of like depending on who you talk to when those are all kind of good markers. But general rule of thumb, if you've hit the 16th century, you're in the early modern period. That's like, fine, you know, no one, no one's gonna like quibble too, too much.
Hannah Witton
You've taken a wrong turn, go back.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly. Right. And, you know, you can tell by the way that I just kind of like, you know, brought those dates up and what I said there is that to a certain the extent the term Middle Ages is a bit European centric. We're starting to push back against that, because obviously, time was happening everywhere in the world at the time, but like the conception of Middle Ages is pretty like white people-y like in terms of, of what it means. Now, there's plenty of history happening other places, but part of the reason we kind of like are only more recently using the term Middle Ages to mean like China, for example, is that the, like, Chinese society was like, way more advanced than European society. So they had stuff like, you know, they were printing stuff already, they were like, good to go, you know, they had like, cryogenically, you know, like, sealed research rooms, and they had, you know, they like, basically, you name it, they had it. And so they were like, living a completely different life. So when we consider like, the Chinese Medieval period, for example, it kind of ends around like the year 800. So it doesn't map. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay, interesting.
Dr Eleanor Janega
But - we're, we're broadening it out. But having said that I am, you know, for my sins a Europeanist, so what I, what I tend to know more about is like European society, which is kind of handy, because that's where I live now. So if you want to think about like, sex in society, which I do, it's kind of handy to be in the one that you're talking about. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
And speak the language of a lot of the sources, although ye olde English, what is that?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, well, okay that's the thing, so a lot of the sources and, like, where we learn a lot about it, too, is like in Latin. So it's like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, fun.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, no, a fun dead language. We do have ye olde English. So like, it's like Middle English, there's Old English, and then there's Middle English, which my joke about is, like, you just kind of gotta like, squint your ears if you could do that.
Hannah Witton
Squint your ears!
Dr Eleanor Janega
You're like, oh, okay, and then there's like, you know, French, I do a lot of stuff in German and Czech as well. Obviously, there's like Italian, but it's like, none of it is exactly, you know, par for the course. But you know, Latin, you know what you're doing, because it stayed that way, because we kind of stopped doing it. So choice. Latin's easy.
Hannah Witton
Okay, then we go. And I guess, like, one of the things that I assume about how we know about things to do with sex in the medieval period, is that a lot of it will just be like court records.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, that's an interesting one. So it's like, we know from a lot of different places. So we get like, what we sometimes call, like hostile witnesses, or negative witnesses in the medieval period.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, what does that mean?
Dr Eleanor Janega
So a lot of what we know about sex in the Middle Ages is from people being like, could you stop, stop doing that? Stop that right now. You know? So there's stuff like from the church, for example, like really interesting literature will be for example, what we call penitentials, which are essentially guidebooks for, you know, when you go to Confession as a Catholic, you go in and do the whole bless me, Father, for I have sinned thing. And then the penitentials can kind of help priests because either they can give them things to ask, you know, people when they're in there, or like if someone says, oh, here's the sin I did, they can be like, oh, okay, great, that's, you know, and here's what your penance is going to be for that.
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay. So does that tell us that like, if it's in those books, then it's common? Or, like, common enough?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah. So that's, that's the thing. So it's like, where you have to be really careful about it. Because it's like, it's probably common enough, right? If it's in those books, it's probably - and you know, you'll see sorts of things in penitentials that, you know, we do now. So, you know, there'll be a lot of, for example, there's a lot of dildo chat, there's just, like tons of dildo chat -
Hannah Witton
I love that!
Dr Eleanor Janega
- where they're like, "Are you making dildos?" Like, that's like one thing you're supposed to ask women? And then you're supposed to say-
Hannah Witton
Wait, are you making them, so not even about using them?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, so it's like, A, are you making them? B, are you using them? C, are you just using them on yourself? Or D, are you turning them into a strap on and having sex with other women with them?
Hannah Witton
Oh, what about turning them into strap on and having sex with other men? Or is that not an option?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Well, that's the thing is that it usually tends - I know, right? It's like that just like blows their mind, it's like - that's probably something that was happening. Right? And we definitely know. So we know that there are dildos around like A because of
Hannah Witton
What are they made out of?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Leather.
Hannah Witton
Huh!
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, so and we know this because we've got the receipts, like literal receipts from like leather makers, where it's like, there's a - we have some receipts from somewhere in the Low Countries that it's like, a red leather strap on got made for a woman. I know, we don't know who she's using the strap on on but like this particular priest was just like, oh, other women. And so that's kind of the problem with penitentials as well is because like, obviously priests are supposed to, in theory, not supposed to be having sex, right? But so on the one hand, this could just be like sort of like the frevent like writings of like a horny dude, who's like, I bet they're making dildos right there and having sex with other - so there's also that so it could be kind of like, we always have to be like, you know, there is this kind of fine line, but you know, as a general rule of thumb, if we're doing it now and someone's writing and being like, yeah, people are doing this, they were probably doing it, you know. So that's a good way of getting kind of information.
We also have stuff like people's diaries or memoirs, people will kind of like write about things. And those are good sometimes kind of like really, like, you know, fine line, because a lot of it'll be you know, because it's very religious time, obviously, you know, like, everyone's, everyone's pretty Catholic. A lot of it'll be kind of like quit lit. Before about, like, when I was a big like, horn bag and I was like, really, I went through a really big shagging period and here's all the people I shagged, and oh man I used to shag so much I loved. And it'll be like, now I'm a monk. But now, and I've left it all behind. And they'll talk about all the like sex they had, they'll talk about all the things that they did. And so we know that definitely, like, we have got first hand accounts of all the shagging going down, right?
Hannah Witton
Wow. Oh, my God, I love it. But then also, what were literacy rates like? because those kinds of accounts would come from more educated people.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, so this is the thing. So it's like one of the really hard things about the medieval period is literary - literacy rates are low. And even when we're talking about literacy rates in the medieval period, a lot of the time, what we're talking about is specifically Latin. Because there are things that are written in the vernacular, but it's just not that common. So we do have things for example, like, there's a lot of circulate in French, like French and like, everybody speaks Latin pretty much and everybody like speaks French, this is like the two big ones within Europe. But we are going to - if it's been written down, if someone like had the, you know, they training to write because it's like writing with a quill is not easy, like I can't do it, I've tried and it's something that you have to be trained to do, right, it's not like picking up a pen. Although you know, I say that I'm like, I guess we were all trained to write with pens and pencils, too. It's just we don't remember it, you know, so like, it probably takes some work. I'm like such a, you know, like a pathetic, like, ex gifted child, I'm like, I'm not good at this immediately. I'm never doing it again, you know, like that kind of thing is bad, you know.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I feel that so hard.
Dr Eleanor Janega
So, but there's like, you know, a skill to it, right. And then you got to keep in mind that we're not even really talking about writing things down on paper, things are written down on parchment. And what parchment is, is animal skins. So it's like, you take it, you dry it out, you scrape all of the fur off. And you know, that's really expensive. So it's this huge process. So like, who's got the kind of like money to be writing these things down, and it's going to be educated and wealthy people. And that kind of leaves a huge class of people and the great majority of the population out, and that is, you know, like, so the majority of the European population are peasants. So 80% of the population are peasants, 70% of those are unfree, and they're largely illiterate. So we only really get to know what's going on with them - so there's court records, that is like one way so you know, you'll have like, suits that get brought, for example, if like someone shagged someone's daughter and then refuses to marry them. And it's like, okay, but her dowry is going to be worth less now. So now you need to give me the money for that dowry.
Hannah Witton
But even the stuff about sex is actually about property.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, it's like really - one of the things I've been kind of working on in my academic work more recently is this what I'm calling like the objectification of sex. So it's like this idea that like sex itself is a kind of like commodity that you trade or that you use. And a lot of the time when we're talking about sex, especially like when it's showing up in court, it's like, oh, there's been there's a property suit. And it's usually men talking to other men, even when it's like about women. They'll be like, oh, well, you've kind of taken this commodity and now my daughter is worth less in a marriage contract, because like, she was supposed to be a virgin, and you've had sex so either you need to marry her, or you need to give me like the money back for this because it's like, this is this is a bargaining.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Wow.
Dr Eleanor Janega
So there's that we've got, you know, our - we have also like, kind of fun things, right. So there'll be like, poems or bawdy stories. And medieval people are, like, mad into like sex and dick and fart jokes, like for them that's like, this is like, you know -
Hannah Witton
So nothing has changed.
Dr Eleanor Janega
No, nothing at all, you know, like, people will assume they're like, oh, you know, the Middle Ages is very stuffy time. And it's like, well, if you've ever read the Canterbury Tales, it's like a series of like, 80s sex romps is like what the Canterbury Tales is. Or, you know -
Hannah Witton
Maybe we all got given abridged versions as children.
Dr Eleanor Janega
I really think that is one of the things like when they're like, oh, read the Canterbury Tales and classes like you don't get to read. Like, they're not like go read the Miller's Tale, like that's not what's happening. It's like, there was people having sex in a pear tree above their blind husband and stuff like that. It's like, it's wild. The Canterbury Tales gets wild very fast.
Hannah Witton
Oh, interesting.
Dr Eleanor Janega
So that's fun. But - there are stuff like tableau, which are kind of like specifically kind of French version of that and they all involve having sex. And there's also stuff like courtly love literature. And courtly love literature is a really singular kind of phenomenon. And as the name kind of indicates, it's talking about people who are in court, right? So, you know, nobles and knights and stuff like that. But everybody likes it. And it kind of trickles down into the rest of society. So this is stuff like, you know, like -
Hannah Witton
Is it like celebrity culture?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, exactly. So it's like, you know, everybody's writing about King Arthur. And, you know, everybody's kind of interested in King Arthur, and they use that as, like kind of mirror for themselves, right. And it's really interesting and wild from a history of sex perspective, because when we're talking about courtly love literature, it's almost entirely like literature devoted to like cucking. Which is like a really big thing for them.
Hannah Witton
Interesting, you want to quickly explain cucking?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, so like cuckolding, as you know, medieval people would say it, is specifically kind of about there is a married man and woman and another man is going to have sex with the woman. Now for us, when we're talking about it, especially in like, a kind of porn context now, it's usually like, there's also this added kind of like humiliation thing on it, where it'll be like, oh, I'm going to have sex in - I'm gonna have sex with your wife in the room with you and we're going to talk about how you're pathetic the whole time. And like, there's this -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you're like bearing witness to it, but not necessarily in a hot way, like you said, in a humiliation way. But then that that is, like found hot, depending on the circumstances.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly, it's like, it's like a big kink thing. And like all - for medieval people, it's not so much like the humiliation part of it, but it's just for them, like, as a general rule, marriage is not something that you do with someone that you're like, really in love with, or someone that you're hot for. Now, you might marry someone that you love. And that's great. Like, congratulations, like, no one's got a problem with that, like, good for you. Like a but as far as medieval people are concerned, marriage is a - it's a property kind of contract. Where you bring two houses together, you bring two kind of like sets of goods together, and you make a family. And it's a religious contract. So it's one of the sacraments and like, those are the two things that matter. So, a lot of the time, especially if you're from like the upper echelons of society, people who have a lot of money, you'll get married for any kind of reason, like, you know, in order to make an alliance or you know, to get some land over there, this sort of things. So, you're not marrying someone that you're in love with or hot for, you're just kind of like doing whatever it is that you have to do for the sake of your family. And they're kind of like rich and they're kind of hanging around in castles all day sort of like fopping about the joint and it's like so they all kind of start flirting with each other.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, it's just a big swingers event. The court. It's just swingers.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, it is. And they like and they like involve - like they love kind of like having all these like really stringent rules about like how one courts people. Look, anytime they're courting people, they're not it's not like oh, yeah, I'm going to court her and marry her and a lot of them see actually marriage as antithetical to love. So you know, there'll be you know cases like literal cases, this is a thing that they like to do as a game was have courts of love. And they would like bring suit before like the king or queen. And we know this definitely happened like in Spain and sometimes the courts in France and this is like a fun game for them. And like there's a famous one in Andreas Capellanus's De Amore, or The Art of Courtly Love, where there's a woman who is in love with a guy, and then they're like, dating, right? And there's another guy who was like, well, I want to date you, too. And she's like, look, if I ever stop dating this guy, I will pick up with you. And you know, we'll see. Anyway they end up getting married, like her and the first guy. And so then he brings suit against her in the court of law. And he's like, well, now you have to love me. And she's like, no, but I've like I married the guy I love and like the court is like, no, yeah, no, you you have to love him now because you got married, so you don't love that other guy anymore. That's what that means,
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Dr Eleanor Janega
And it's is like so when they want to have like romantic sex. They're like, that's something that you would like kind of exclusively do outside of marriage, whereas marriage is specifically for having like procreative P in V sex.
Hannah Witton
Well how are they avoiding procreative sex outside of marriage then? How are they - or do they not care about like considering the bloodline like what's going on?
Dr Eleanor Janega
They definitely do. And what we seem to kind of like get the view of is that they're just basically like not doing PIV is like what it comes down to. So they are having a lot of what they would call sodomy.
Hannah Witton
I was gonna get onto that. What is sodomy?
Dr Eleanor Janega
So sodomy, fun fact - and this is still true - sodomy is any kind of sex that you engage in where you can't get pregnant. And that's like so you know, oral sex. I mean, now when we tend to say sodomy, we tend to mean an anal sex, but it's oral sex, anal sex. Interfemoral sex, which is big in the medieval period. People really -
Dr Eleanor Janega
What is that?
Dr Eleanor Janega
So it's like when it's like putting dicks between the legs.
Hannah Witton
Oh, like, so like for like dry humping, but wet humping.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Wet humping. Yeah, so they like that a lot. You know, like handjobs, blowjobs, all of that, all of that is sodomy. And it seems like that's what they were kind of getting up to. So like, there's this whole, like one of the big bestsellers of the Middle Ages, the Roman de la Rose is kind of like a big allegory about love and seeking like the rose and the perfect love. But it's also like an allegory for going down on women. So it's like, the clit is like the rose. And so it's sort of like alluding to the fact that like - so this is the kind of sex that they would be having. And for medieval people, it's really interesting, because like, also, like, that's the good stuff, like, right, for them,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, if that's what you're doing with the people that you love. Right? And then you're like, I've got a duty to my husband.
Dr Eleanor Janega
You have the unfun penis in vagina sex with your husband because you know, like, that's what's probably going to get you pregnant. And that's the one that you'd like you do, you know, for family and God and like King and Country, blah, blah, blah. That's the kind of that's the sort of sex for that. And the fun sex is everything else. And the church is absolutely desperate in the middle ages to get everyone to knock off all the sodomy. They're like, God dammit, I like just no, hey, God only likes P in V. And there was like, a lot of kind of like, very pious hand wringing about this. So, um.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but where did that come from? Because I feel like the more I learn about Christianity, and it,s like, sex negativity, is that it wasn't Jesus.
Dr Eleanor Janega
No, it's like so it's a lot of it starts with what we call the church fathers. The church fathers are like the group of dudes who kind of like wrote the rules. Um, so you got people like your St. Augustine of Hippo, your St. Jerome, people like that. And they're generally Egyptian or North African. And they generally kind of hang out at the end of the, like, what we call the antique period. So like, right before the medieval era, and they're the ones who were like, okay, look, there's gonna have to be some rules around here. We can't just be going on vibes anymore. So like, what are the rules?
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love vibes.
Dr Eleanor Janega
I know, and like, this is the thing is that like, Christians were kind of like really going hardcore vibes before this. But they're like, no, you can't, you can't just be like running around, like doing whatever it is you want. And St. Augustine in particular, is one of these guys who does a bunch of quit lit about like his big sex life. Because he had like a wife and a mistress. He's got like, like - he was having a bunch of sex for ages and ages and ages, like much to his mother's chagrin, because she's Christian, he eventually converts, he eventually joins the monastery. And then he spends all his time being like, sex is bad, and you shouldn't do it, even though I did it a bunch.
Hannah Witton
Ugh.
Dr Eleanor Janega
And for him, sex is like almost a punishment from God. And what he kind of thinks about it is that in - so say, we'd stayed in the Garden of Eden, in theory. Say, like, Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge. If they wanted to be fruitful and multiply, which God told them to do, a guy - like Adam and Eve would go, Okay, it's time to have sex and procreate. And Adam would just be like, alright, dick get hard, and the dick would get hard. And Eve would go, alright, vagina get wet, and her vagina would get wet. And it would just be like, insert tab A into slot B. And then they'd be like, right, ejaculate, and then they would and they wouldn't feel anything, they wouldn't feel anything sexy, they wouldn't feel anything at all. And they would, it would be like, right conception achieved. And then they'd have the baby. And it would be unpainful to have the baby because like, one of the curses of the fall of man is that women bring forth man and pain. So there's that. So like, the pain bit for women is one bit of the fall, but also, like the pleasure bit is one part of the fall, because it's sort of like setting humans up to kind of walk this tightrope of what is acceptable. And St. Augustine is really obsessed with, like, the betrayal of our bodies with sex. So like and he's always talking about like, oh, you know, you like you can't control your dick. It's terrible, and your dick's just getting hard when you don't want it to and then when you do want it to get hard, it doesn't get hard.
Hannah Witton
Sounds like he needs some therapy.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah. I feel like my man was probably happier with his mistress and everything. But it's like his mom eventually negged him into being a Christian than it was *whistles* It was intense.
Hannah Witton
And then it all came out.
Dr Eleanor Janega
And so he's like, obsessed with how dicks work or don't, and he's like, this is the devil tempting you and like, he's kind of the one that starts this. And so from there in the medieval period, you have even more and more written about this. So for example, St. Thomas Aquinas will write about this. And they kind of say, well, yeah, you've got to have sex in order to make more kids, right? Like, we all know that we need more kids. God -
Hannah Witton
A necessary evil.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, exactly. And there's this very famous phrase, it's better to marry than to burn. And that kind of means two things. So on the one hand, it's like, well, it's better to get married and have sex. If you really feel like - the ideal man doesn't have sex. The ideal woman doesn't have sex. They will devote themselves to God, they will become a priest or a nun or a monk or whatever, that's the ideal person, but that's not for everybody. So you'd get -
Hannah Witton
Everyone else is weak.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, exactly. And if you're so weak, if you're so weak that you can't avoid having sex, you can get married, right, and then like have the appropriate sex. The other way of thinking about that is it's better to get married and have the sex that's appropriate than to like burn with the fires of lust. So.
Hannah Witton
Ah, right. So if you've got to get that lust out, make sure it's in an appropriate place.
Hannah Witton
And so the appropriate place is you know, married penis in vagina sex while you're trying to have kids and like, within this, you're also supposed to, like, really keep the fun down. Like, ideally, like, don't go making out. Like that's like a big thing. They're like just do enough. So that like, you can, like get in and get out.
Hannah Witton
Physically. Get in, get out.
Dr Eleanor Janega
It's supposed to be as quick as possible. And it's supposed to be like, as least fun as possible. And there's like a lot - they're like, hey, like, not too much stroking boobs, like just enough stroking boobs. And there's a real conception of like, what is just enough as well, because they've got a real - a different understanding of how babies are made, essentially, like.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Dr Eleanor Janega
So there's a couple of theories here, and they come, they'll come from the classical period. So like Aristotle, like Plato, all of this, like medieval people are just like huge fanboys for Greek philosophers. So they build everything off of that. There's two theories that come from that time there is the less common one seed theory. So like Aristotle bought this one, where it's like, oh, yeah, sperm are everything, right? Sperm have all of it and they're like a seed. And women's wombs, like it's all very cishetero, let's be very clear, women's wombs are then like a fertile field that you like, toss the seed into. And then they and then they grow a baby. And that's the one seed theory. The two seed theory is, well, if men ejaculate when they orgasm, then women must ejaculate when they orgasm too. So they're kind of releasing a semen themselves, like internally, and then that semen mixes with the men's semen. And then that's like, what mixes up to make a baby. So it's like -
Hannah Witton
What fertilizes the soil.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly. So they - like women are definitely contributing to like one aspect of that as well. So this leads on -
Hannah Witton
Good to see our contributions recognised.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, it's like, they aren't like, necessarily clear on what an egg is, like, but they're just like, and they're like, oh, and that gets released when you come. And so this creates this interesting situation, because there is a lot of focus on like, making sure that like everybody comes during penis in vagina sex, because otherwise you can't have a baby. And the only reason why it's okay to have sex is if you're making a baby, right? Like, and then it's fine.
Hannah Witton
So is there like, lots of literature about like, how to please a woman?
Dr Eleanor Janega
So interestingly, like, not so much because like, the way that they think about, about sex and like pleasure is they're like, women are horny as fuck. And they like - there is like, you can just not stop them. And they like she is gonna get off. Like, don't even worry about it. It's a it's more like a, like a men lock, your like, lock yourselves up. Because like -
Hannah Witton
There's a real shift in that from like, I guess, the medieval period that you study, and then like, the early modern, yeah, that I looked at where this this shift that goes like, women are naturally like absolutely freaky, to no, they're incredibly prude, and there's nothing sexual about them.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, it's really interesting. Because like, I'm, I'm kind of convinced that like, one of the things that happens within that is that they're, it's almost like, we change the way that we feel about sex. When we're coming onto what is kind of like, you know, the scientific revolution and everything like that. And we're like, oh, well, because sex is necessary and here's like, these things that we studied about it. Now we think sex is good. And if sex is good, then it means that men like it and are good at it. But when sex is bad, it means that women like it and are bad at it. Right? So it's like, you you associate women with whatever the bad thing is. So it's like when sex was bad women like it, when sex is good women don't like it like. And that's kind of the what remains the same is that women are wrong about sex no matter what. So there's a lot of like, oh, well, women are going to be like, super hot and sexy during sex. This is what's gonna happen. And it's your duty as a man to kind of like, lock that shit down and be like -
Hannah Witton
Rein it it!
Dr Eleanor Janega
- no wife, you're too horny! Just like, none of that. Because like, you're - like men are the logical ones, right? Men are the ones, they don't enjoy sex as much. Well, there's kind of a back and forth about that. There's like, do women and - there's like a lot of philosophy, where it's like, well, do women enjoy sex more? Or do men enjoy sex more? And there are people who are like, well, women have like a greater quantity of desire.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness. I honestly don't think that debate has ended though.
Dr Eleanor Janega
No, that's like still going on.
Hannah Witton
We're still having that conversation.
Dr Eleanor Janega
We're still - like, all of these conversations are pretty much almost exactly the same. Only it's like, you know, we just put our own slant to it. So yeah, we do to think of women as frigid and disinterested in sex. But even when people are like, trying to kind of like debunk that, you know, when we see like, for example, like Masters and Johnson's studies of sex, it'll be like, oh, well, no women are freaky as hell, they just love it. You know, like, when you see, like, studies about it's like, well, because they'll just come and come and come and you know, like, it's like, so that's kind of like, what medieval people -
Hannah Witton
It's this like, weird dichotomy between, like, they're super frigid, but also, they can have multiple orgasms, and they get wet whenever they look at anything, even.
Dr Eleanor Janega
The absolute like, obsess - it's like, I need you to figure it out. Right? And it's like, you know, I feel like maybe the answer is that it's like a complicated number of factors. And it's just not something where you can go yes or no, but medieval people were really certain that like, women were going to just like, have this freaky good time with you. And you needed to like, push back and be like, no, like, the least freaky sex please, one non freaky sex, and like that was your job as a man was to kind of like make sure that it didn't go like too wild because the worry - and this is also really common for like Roman people and Greek and ancient Greek, ancient Greeks, and ancient Romans - is they were like, oh, cuz if you as a man start enjoying sex too much, you'll become feminized, and you'll turn gay. Because it's like -
Hannah Witton
Ugh, misogyny and homophobia always go hand in hand.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Liking sex? It's like extremely fella's is it gay to enjoy sex with your wife. Like that's it really.
Hannah Witton
I shouldn't laugh that hard, but that is kind of funny.
Hannah Witton
Okay, we had like, loads of questions for people coming up on social media, and I want to try and get to this as many of them as possible.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Let's hit it.
Hannah Witton
Because there's just like the same. Okay, a lot of people would just, we kind of answered it just about like, what are they doing? Were they having oral sex? or anal sex? And it's like yes. They were.
Dr Eleanor Janega
The answer is yes.
Hannah Witton
And um, pubic hair trend. What was going on there?
Dr Eleanor Janega
So we do know that there is some interest in depilation of pubic hair. And in particular, there's a lot of waxing going on. And we know this from there's a really cool book that we call the Trotula and it kind of circulates - really, it's like one of the most common texts from the Middle Ages. And part of it is sort of like a birthing manual for women. So it's like for, you know, here's some common gynecological problems. And some of it will be just like, oh, well, here's how to make cough mixture in your own home. And a bunch of it is like beauty recipes. So it'll be like, you know, there's hair dye and there's like, you know, a face whitener, because they're really into being pale. There's like lipstick, there's stuff like this. And one of the things that they do all the time, they're like, oh, well, here's a good paste for like waxing your pubes. And also waxing your forehead. They like to have like a really far back forehead, that was hot.
Hannah Witton
Ouch!
Dr Eleanor Janega
So they want a hairline that's like way up.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, so there was like a kind of like, depilatories is like a big thing. We do know that there is some shaving as well. And we do know that like, especially kind of like in the Italian city states, it's sort of like a like, women will go into like the equivalent beauty salons and be like, oh, can you remove my hair for me? My husband likes it like that. Yeah, they're like, we do know that. Like, I mean, obviously, there's a range of things. But we definitely know that they were doing removal of pubic hair, that was something that was fun for them. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting. I would have just assumed that they're doing nowt. But then I guess like, if there was grooming of men's facial hair, then you can groom any hair.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, like what we know is that they aren't doing so much of like body shaving. So it's like, you know, shaving legs and stuff like that. That doesn't really occur to them, but pubes, they'll go for it. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, interesting. Okay, and this is a fun question. Figs and pears, what's the medieval deal with sexualizing fruits? And also now I just want you to create like a series on your blog which is called what's the medieval deal with insert thing here.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, that would be a really good one. Yeah, so in the first place, fruits be sexy. Sorry. End of story.
Hannah Witton
Think about all of the like, fruit emojis that we use to represent sex and sexy things.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, exactly. Um, pears in particular, they have like a kind of link back to St. Augustine again. So like St. Augustine, like one of the big stories he tells about, like, you know, his wild, rambunctious days is about like how he and his friends kind of like steal some pears from a neighbor's tree. And like he eats the pears, but they don't taste as good. And like it's supposed to be like a big metaphor for sin and all this stuff and so like for pears are kind of like held up as like this sort of, like specific kind of like sexy fruit. And they're kind of like juicy.
Hannah Witton
Juicy, round.
Dr Eleanor Janega
And they got the ideal body shape for women. Because for medieval people, the pear shape is like, where it's at, like, that's what they like, they want like -
Hannah Witton
Mmm, the beauty standard of the time.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Their beauty standard is like tiny tits, dump truck ass. They want like Pixar mom ass.
Hannah Witton
Elastigirl!
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly, and like, but like as pale as possible. And like, you know, like, their beauty standard is like really ossified in this particular thing. So it's kind of reminiscent of that sort of like, that's pears. There's also of course, like this link back specifically to the tree of knowledge and, you know, fruit there being a metaphor. So, interestingly, in the medieval period, it's more likely that you do see pomegranates as the fruit of knowledge
Hannah Witton
Ooh, a sexy, sexy pomegranate.
Dr Eleanor Janega
And like, so like pomegranates or like apples or these things, supposed to recall original sin and original sin, oh, that's when you're naked.
Hannah Witton
Oh no!
Dr Eleanor Janega
Sexy as that, you know, and so there is this kind of like, um, the sexualization of it. But I mean also, medieval people be horny, so you never know what they'll sexualize. Wild.
Hannah Witton
It's true. All of those medieval women just like, that's about sex. That's about sex. That's about sex.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly, exactly.
Hannah Witton
That's what I feel like about some taboos as well.
Dr Eleanor Janega
That's very relatable because I'm like, oh, yeah, this ice cream commercial is about sex. It's sex.
Hannah Witton
Well what is it - I have no idea where this phrase comes from. But it's like like everything is about sex -
Dr Eleanor Janega
Sex, which is power, yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
This actually made me think of my own what's the medieval deal with question, which is, what's the medieval deal with sex work?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Oh, yeah. So sex work's a really interesting one, because they've got a completely different kind of relationship to it. So sex work for medieval people is legal, which is kind of like a different distinction. You know, what we're aiming for now is kind of like decriminalization of sex work, which is very different. But so for medieval people, it's legal, because it's seen as an absolute bog standard necessity for running a kind of, you know, peaceful society. So it's -
Hannah Witton
A civilized society.
Dr Eleanor Janega
It's interestingly, even the women or the horny ones, right? You know, how women be horny?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, where are - hmm.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Well, sex is like, kind of also seen as this thing that sort of needs to happen in order for bodies to be healthy. Like that is one thing. Like there's a real clear idea that like sex as sort of kind of like, purges humours, for example. So it's like, oh, yeah, like your excess heat, if you're a man.
Hannah Witton
Like you were saying, if you keep it all in, you're gonna burn.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly, so you got to get it out, you got to get it out. So there's some medical kickbacks from that, they think. And then part of it is also like, especially for men, semen is conceptualized as being very hot. So like men in the humoral landscape of things, men are hot and dry, and women are cold and wet. And so men are men are seen as like being very hot and dry, and their semen is therefore also hot and dry. And if they don't like expel it, it will kind of build up and they might become like, quite violent and enraged. Right? So especially in cities where you've got a lot more like unmarried men around the joint who don't have access to kind of elicit sex, it's seen as a really good idea to have sex workers around so that they can go have sex and kind of like, deal with it.
Hannah Witton
So sex workers are for unmarried men.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah. And it's like, we do know that married men are also seeing sex workers, for sure. But for the idea is that they're there to kind of like see to the needs of unmarried men. And it's interesting, because within this particular cosmology, and again, like Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine, both wrote that's like yeah you definitely need to have sex workers around. No one's necessarily like the most happy about it. They're not like, oh, yeah, it's great to be a sex worker like get on out there. But they're like, well, this is something that you just need to do. And that's seen as less sinful than winking. For example.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow. So how were sex workers perceived then?
Dr Eleanor Janega
So sex workers then had this really kind of like nuanced position within society, where it's not good to be a sex worker, right. It's kind of like a lot of the time that they want to specifically demarcate you as being a sex worker. So like, here in London, for example, if you were going to be a sex worker, you had to wear something called a Hood of Ray, which we think is kind of like a black and white striped head dress, so that every time someone sees you, they immediately know that you're a sex worker, because they want to kind of like mark you out as different. Having said that, medieval people are a lot chiller about it once you give it up. So like, now, the way that we kind of conceptualize sex work is like, oh, it's the worst thing that can ever happen to a woman. It's terrible. And it's this life changing thing. And like, once you've had sex work, that's it's changed you from the rest of life. For medieval people, it's more like, okay, well, if you want to get out of sex work, which women do eventually, you go to the priest, you'll say, bless me, father for I have sinned, I've been a sex worker and he'll be like, okay, hon, go get married. And that's literally what the penance is. It's like get married and start a family.
Hannah Witton
This is interesting because that I guess - because the church is such a huge part of how people organize a structured society and getting married is like - was that form of stability? Like our form of, okay, you want to get out of sex work here, go do xyz doesn't exist because we don't have that social support there for anyone who does want to do something different.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah. And it becomes this real problem within, because we're just like, oh, well, women should exit sex work. And we're like, okay, and to do what? And they're like, crickets. It's just like, you know, like, we're gonna rescue them. And it's like, okay, well, how are you going to like, give them money?
Hannah Witton
You got jobs and housing lined up? And childcare? Cool,
Dr Eleanor Janega
Wonderful, great. It's - h, you don't? You don't. Okay. Whereas, you know, so for medieval people, there were like, it's very obvious that you need to have a kind of like, clear path forward for what they're going to do. So oftentimes, they was getting married. And sometimes it would also be that you might also enter the church, if you were like, really quite religious. So like, there was an entire order of nuns, for example, called the Magdelines who initially were started as women who left sex work. So that's all well and good. And it's sort of like, yeah, that doesn't have to be the defining thing about your life. But having said that, so say you die as a sex worker, like, you know, say you die in childbirth, or something like that, you die technically outside of the bonds of the church. So again, here in London, we've got a whole graveyard, the Crossbones graveyard, which is very near to Borough Market, because all of the sex work was supposed to happen south of the river here in London, it's really common in the medieval period of like, the brothels will be just outside of town, or like, just like near the city walls, that kind of thing. So here, it's in Southwark. So there's this whole graveyard where it's on consecrated ground, where all of the sex workers and oftentimes, like their children who died quite young are buried there, because they died out of communion with the church. So like, I don't want to give a picture of like, oh, yeah, the medieval world is like a wonderful place for sex workers and it's absolutely brilliant.
Hannah Witton
Super enlightened!
Dr Eleanor Janega
it's like, on the other hand, I do think that they have a slightly better attitude to sex work, and that they're like, this is inevitable. This is something that is like in demand. And also, if you want women to leave sex work, they need options. So that is actually like, way better than you know, our common tendency is just like criminalizing the whole thing. And like, you know, making it into this, like, insurmountable thing. And then once you are, it's like, oh, you can never you'll never get over the ordeal. You know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so this was a question that came up so much. I feel like everyone wants to know about it. Same sex relationships. Same sex behaviors in the medieval period. Where are all the queer people? Although, you know, we wouldn't, they wouldn't identify as queer.
Dr Eleanor Janega
It's a really interesting one because there's, there's no conception of being gay, in the medieval period. What you are is a sodomite, and so that's a really interesting thing. Because check -
Hannah Witton
And anyone who's even just having oral sex -
Dr Eleanor Janega
They're all sodomites. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
We're all sodomites here!
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, exactly, so it's, it's an interesting one. Because sometimes when we're looking for what we would call queer people, it can be kind of difficult, because we don't necessarily know when it says sodomy, or it says sodomite, you have to, like, there needs to be more information, it's like, okay, we need some clarification here on what you mean by that. But we definitely know that it is around. Real common ways that we see like queer relationships for examples will come out of monasteries and nunneries. So because they can all -
Hannah Witton
Of course. You, you get a single sex environment -
Dr Eleanor Janega
And it's just off, right and plus, they can all read and write.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, love letters?
Dr Eleanor Janega
So we've got love letters and stuff. So it'll be like you know, really, really sad like it'll be - because occasionally you get moved from like monastery to monastery or nunnery to nunnery. And there's like, this really famous love letter, for example, from one nun to another, I think, in the German speaking lands, and they're like, oh, you know, I miss you so much. And when I think of how you touched my little breasts, it makes me want to die. You know, like, there's so much and there'll be like, there's these constant attempts to kind of like crack down on all the gay sex that's happening in monasteries and nunneries and they'll be like, these rules where it's like, you could not call another nun your little bird, right? Like no sleeping together and no doing this and no doing that. And there'll be like, all these rules where it's like, knock that off, then everybody can everybody can really tell that you know, this is what's happening. And so it'll be like a constant kind of like moral panic where they'll be like, we need to crack down on all the gay sex that's happening all right, all right, it's chill. It's chill, chill. Oh, we need to crack down on it again. So that definitely, it's definitely around. It's also interesting because it's something that we see - kind of like real real opposition to gay sex and what we what we would call you know, gay sex kind of builds up over the period where it's like it's more chill at other times where it's like - you know you again in penitentials will be like, stop making strap-ons and having sex with women. That's naughty. And it'll be like, you know, you get like one year of penance if you're using the dildo on herself in three years of penance, if you use it on another woman.
Hannah Witton
Ahat does that mean? Like -
Dr Eleanor Janega
So it'll be like a lot of the time what it means is that you've gotta fast, they fucking love a fast. So they do. In order to - like it's so easy everyone else on a holiday is getting to have like the big feast and you're not supposed to do that. And so that it'll be like more praying and fasting a lot of the time. So like, for example, the penitential Bouchard of Worms for the whole dildo thing, they're like, it's one year if it's on yourself, it's three years if it's on another woman, and also knock that off. So you know, like, it's definitely seen as worse, but it's not like, oh, that's it, you're going to hell and also, like, we're going to kill you. That's not, that's not what the vibe is. But later in the medieval period, especially in the Italian city states, it kind of like the cusp of sort of like, the late medieval, early modern period, they come up with like a whole gay police thing, where they're like, we are out specifically to stop sodomites and what they mean there is specifically men having sex with men, as well.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so they've kind of like classified it differently.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Because the way that they think tend to think about sex as well is that they see that sex is something that men do to women. So like men are like active participants. So like, there is this sort of conceptualization where it's like, well, women, I mean, what, what do they doing? You know, like it even when it's like, theologians writing about it, and like to say that it's naughty or something like, the medieval imagination when it talks about what it's like women masturbating by themselves, or women having sex with each other, really, kind of like focuses on like, well, then they're gonna get a dildo from somewhere, because they're just gonna like, absolutely, like, they really want that dildo like, no -
Hannah Witton
Because it has to be penetration, has to be a phallic something involved.
Dr Eleanor Janega
And it's like, where's the dude, you know, it's like, that's all they would have said, so like, this is less something that kind of like scoops women up. But they will have like, these essentially, like, they don't even have police but they've got like, gay sex cops, where they're like, trying to break men up from having sex with each other. And kind of like -
Hannah Witton
That's really interesting. Because like the Tudor period, you'd also like it's also like, early modern, and wasn't like under Henry the Eighth when there was like the buggery act.
Dr Eleanor Janega
So that's the thing. And so it's like, you know, in, like, in the early modern period, this is when there's like, alright, we are clamping down on homosexual behavior. And like we are going to make -
Hannah Witton
But like, specifically men.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Oh it's usually specifically men having sex with men, and it's specifically early modern, and they just get their knickers in a twist about it.
Hannah Witton
What happened?
Dr Eleanor Janega
Like arguments about it that like part of it has to do with what we call confessionalisation. So like, when we have Protestants and Catholics, there becomes this kind of like arms race about, like, who's being more holy. And they're like, no, we're holy. No, were' holy. No, we're holy. And it's like so we've got these laws. Yeah, we've got these laws how you can't be going around having gay sex and this is what - and for the Italian city states when they're coming up with like, the sodomy police that what they are kind of saying is that like, they talk about like, gay shit as being like, a specifically of foreign and they're like, oh, you're like, feminized? And foreign and which is like, lol, go talk to like, Leonardo about all this, but you know, whatever. But it says that there's this kind of like, you know, keeping men men in Mantua, you know, kind of like, oh, it's we're kind of like keeping this sort of foreign agent out.
Hannah Witton
I guess that becomes quite like, nationalistic as well.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah. So it's like when you have like the rise of conceptions of nationalism, which we really see in the early modern period, and when you have this kind of like, these real tensions about like, what it means to be a Christian and what that's going to shake down to, that's when we start to see more specific laws about and against gay men.
Hannah Witton
That's fascinating. It's just like, all connected, because I guess like the foreign like the like, thinking that it's like this foreign influence, like you said, it's like the nationalism because obviously, we're talking about Europe. It's like, it's white nationalism. It's like European. Yeah. That's Yeah, I hadn't thought of it like that, of it like then just like trickling and being like, just these like, big, like, religions just being like this, like political national, religious, like, fight, and then that just like trickles down to like, people, and we're seeing the effects of that, like, centuries later still.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, it's it's one of these things. It's, it's quite interesting, because there there will be this assumption, right, that there are queer people in the Middle Ages. And it'll be like, oh, well, you know, because everyone used to be so like, terrible to gay people. And like, I'm not saying - I do not want to say that, like, no, everyone was like, really chill about it and they thought it was a great time and like, have fun, but it's actually slightly better to, I would argue, be gay in the medieval period than it is in like, the early modern period. That's when stuff starts getting scary.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And we've kind of like touched on a few things of like, how, I guess we feel as like people in the 21st century because obviously what you're always bringing your own present day baggage to this kind of stuff. But like, if anything like what can we learn from - how like what the medieval period was all about sex? Like, what? If there is anything can we learn from that to our lessons today?
Dr Eleanor Janega
I think that is a really good question. And basically, the thing that I think that we can really learn from the medieval period is that there's a lot of ways to have a really enjoyable sex that aren't like the sexual script. And actually, what medieval people show us when we kind of look at what their sex lives are like, is that they're kind of, you know, like, polymorphously perverse, they're, like, you know, having like sexual ecstatic visions about like, Jesus coming down from the cross and making out with them. And like, then like, it's coming from making out with Jesus. They are meditating on images of Christ's side wound that looks like a vulva and kissing it and rubbing it. And it's like, they've got these ideas of like, a sexuality as so, so pleasurable and so interesting, and like, ecstatic and kind of like religious and wonderful, and they're really interested in doing stuff that isn't PIV. You've got to, like, back them into a corner to do like, piv. It's like, no, you have to do like -
Dr Eleanor Janega
Like, god, if I've got to get pregnant, fine, you know, like, so they have a lot more ways of enjoying sex and the sex that they're interested in, is the stuff now that we go, oh, that doesn't count. That's not that's not real. But they're, like, that's the good shit, and like so they just do what's kind of like fun for them. And I think that there's this kind of, like, tendency to think that for us now, like, you know, we try to science everything. We try to be like, well, we've got the answers to everything. Because, you know, because of like, all the scientific studies that we've done on sex, and it's like, so it's like, well, it's, it doesn't give us any answers really, and like, so for example, science still can't tell us what an orgasm is. Like, we got no idea about that. But like, for example, Hildegard of Bingen, visionary mystic from the medieval period, she was writing down what women's orgasms felt like and what they were, and like what that was about. So you know, they had a better kind of relationship with sex in a lot of ways. Because they're like, hey, it's something that's really pleasurable, it's something that you can really do for fun. And, you know, if we could kind of adopt that, and kind of like put aside of our, like, scripts, our ideas about like the right quote unquote, way to have sex, and all of that, then we would be having a better time. And I always kind of laugh, because like, the way that we talked about sex now, it's exactly what the church spent all their time being like, this is how you have sex, and everyone was like, I don't want to do it. And now it's like, worked on us and we're like, well, that's how you have sex.
Hannah Witton
Like, ugh, fine.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, somehow, it's like, gotten into just mainstream sex culture. Yeah. Cuz I just think about the language that I would use as a teenager and a young adult, it would be like a we did everything but. Or like, yeah, when you say like, did you have sex, you mean, did you have PIV or like, like, any kind of penetration? And like -
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yeah, completely. And that's, that's not how many people thought about it at all. So if we could adopt a little bit about that, then we probably be having better sex lives. That's all. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because when we like, have this gold standard of like, oh, in order to have like, a good sex life, you need to be having lots of sex. But if you actually think of sex as more than just PIV, if then you will actually have more sex.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly, and isn't that great? You know, like, surely surely, you know, as long as you're having a nice time, then like, that counts as sex and wouldn't you rather be doing that then like, achieving what St. Augustine wanted from you? You know, like St. Augustine doesn't get to tell me how to have a sex life, frankly. So.
Hannah Witton
He doesn't even go here! Eleanor, thank you so much. Please plug your blog, please plug your book.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Yes, it's so exciting out now! My new book is coming out is called The Middle Ages: A Graphic History. So it's from the Icon graphic guide series. If you've read, for example, the very cool one, Queer, it's like that. So.
Hannah Witton
I literally just got in the post both of Meg-John's!
Dr Eleanor Janega
Queer, Queer and Sexuality. Yeah, so so I made one of those, hey, but it's about medieval history. So it's a really, I base it on kind of my medieval history 101 classes that I teach to undergrads. So it's basically covering all like, what I think the kind of like big hits people need to know about the medieval period are and it's got really, really gorgeous drawings. So that's super, super exciting. If you want to check out some more of my writing for free, I blog over at going-medieval.com. And so there's a lot there. I tend to kind of like react news stories, but also I just write about sex a lot. I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Love it. Sex and society, and the medieval period.
Dr Eleanor Janega
Exactly. So. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and thank you for listening. Bye!
Dr Eleanor Janega
Bye!
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much. Listening to doing it. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review, you can find shownotes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast.