The Spectacle and Commodification of Sexual Liberation with Kimberly Foster (For Harriet) | Transcript
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Kimberly Foster
Kim Kardashian, because she was able to become so famous and so visible and so rich, co opting these aesthetics, people recognise, oh, there's a currency here. I can get a larger platform if I emulate this, right. So she has created a blueprint that people, because we live in capitalist societies, people want to follow that pattern. They want to get what she has and do what she does.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. Before we get into all the incredibleness that is my guest this week, I wanted to let you know that next week's episode will be the last of the season. Sad I know. But oh my goodness, three seasons already. Each one a completely different length than than any of the others. What is consistency? But, after that final guest interview, I will be doing my usual solo episode Q&A. So if you're listening on the day this podcast comes out, head over to our Instagram @DoingItPodcast and ask your questions. They can be about topics we've covered on the podcast this season, sex questions and comments, things you want to share, questions about guests, and just podcasting in general. Thank you in advance for any of your questions. So like I said, there will be one more guest interview episode next week, week after it will be the q&a, and then we'll be taking a couple of weeks off over Christmas and New Year. But now, on to today's episode. My guest this week is Kimberly Foster, who is the founder of For Harriet, a multi platform digital community for black women. And in this episode, we talk about sexuality, race, sexual liberation, and pop culture. We discussed the difference between the spectacle of sexual liberation as we see it in the media versus real and personal sexual liberation, which Kimberly describes as more of an internal quest or exploratory mission. We talk about the messages we receive around black people's, and especially black women's, sexuality in our media and culture, and how to spot and critique them. And the hyper sexualization of black music artists. We explore what is radical imagination and why we need it black fishing, the mixed race aesthetic, and of course, the Kardashians. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. Thanks so much for listening. Here is the brilliant Kimberly Foster. Kimberly, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing?
Kimberly Foster
I am as good as can be expected. Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
Oh, well. Absolutely my pleasure. I wanted to chat with you all about what you do and all of the brilliant thoughts that you have and the topics that you cover. But I want to just to start with what what do you call it For Harriet your platform, your work? Like how did it start? And like why did it begin?
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, so I call For Harriet a multi platform digital community that centres black feminist thought. And it began as a blog in 2010 and then evolved. I know that people's media consumption habits have changed. So as I recognise that people were doing different stuff and watching different stuff and I decided to move to making videos and then that became pretty successful. So that's primarily what I do now.
Hannah Witton
Adapting with the times.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Well, yeah, what kind of topics Do you cover with For Harriet? And why was it so important for you to cover those? Like what led you to start that blog in the first place? I guess
Kimberly Foster
I, when I was in my early 20s, was really really becoming a an ardent feminist. I was becoming more acquainted with black feminist thought in particular, my favourites are Bell Hooks and Audrey Lorde and Patricia Hill Collins, so many of the greats. And as my political identity was really beginning to form, I just wanted an outlet for it. And I was always an internet obsessed kid, like just ridiculous, spent way too much time on the computer. So I just wanted to meld my two passions, which was being on the internet all day and you know, this, like, nascent political view, I just wanted to space to explore it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then how did you find that? Did you, were you doing a lot of writing on the blog, just kind of like as a personal outlet for a while. Or was it like quite quick that people were reading and listening and like interacting with what you were saying?
Kimberly Foster
From the very beginning, I knew that I wanted For Harriet to be a community. So actually, really, when I first started it, I was like, this is not primarily going to even be my thoughts, because I really was like, I don't know anything. So what I really wanted it to be was a centre for all different kinds of black women to explore their thoughts and ideas about various topics and their experiences. And so I initially reached out to about a handful of black women bloggers, whom I really admired and respected, and explained what I thought the vision for the site was going to be. And, to my surprise, quite a few of them were like, sure, you can republish this, or I'll write this and I wasn't paying at the time, I did not have any money. So it really was just people investing in an idea.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's brilliant. I love that you just like that vision from the beginning. Did you always include topics around, cuz I think I like found a lot of the For Harriet content, specifically the stuff around sexuality, because that's like my area of interest? Did you always talk about that topic? Or was that something that came later? And why was it important for you to include that
Kimberly Foster
I didn't really start diving deep into discussions of sexuality personally, until I don't even know even now, I try to keep it kind of vague and cryptic. But there are other women who are much more open and willing to explore those topics. And the sexuality piece is so so important and pertinent to the lives and experiences of black women because of racism, because of sexism. So really early on, like that was a thing that people really wanted to explore, especially the media representation part.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a huge piece. And it's something that like, I don't know, I feel like I'm just starting to see those patterns now. And once it's kind of like been pointed out to me, I'm like, oh, there it is, again, there it is, again, like why, like, is this everywhere?
Kimberly Foster
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing about media and socialisation. And all of these images that we encounter all the time, they become normalised, so you don't even question them, right. But you are internalising all of this stuff and creating assumptions and stereotypes and that has real world effects on people. And so that's why I do think media criticism and cultural criticism are so important, because it's important that we break that stuff down. We have to contextualise it. So then when you see it, you can say, oh, you're doing that thing, right. And like, we need to push back against that thing.
Hannah Witton
I think it's often really difficult for people to almost like criticise things that they love as well like things that like have, like, an emotional or sentimental meaning for them. Like it might be a song, or a TV show that they really love. And like those things, even if we like really love them and it's like brilliant in some ways, can still like fall into all of these traps. And yeah, you're right, like being able to take things like as they are as a whole. And like that nuance of Hey, has done some good stuff here. But like, oh, there's this thing here is still happening. Yeah, it's really important.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, you know, I, as a lover of television, and music and movies, and all that. Anybody who encounters any of my content knows that I'm pop culture obsessed. I understand the emotional connection that we have to this stuff that we like, you know, it's not just a movie, it's not just an artist, you know, it's like, it's, it reminds you of a moment in time, it reminds you of being in a certain place, so I get it, right. But like, again, it just, it just takes that extra step of saying I get it. I like this, but like there's something beneath the surface. So let's just dig a little bit deeper.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So one of the things I wanted to kind of, like ask you about or dive into, especially in terms of pop culture is I guess, like, I don't even know how, I'm sure like there's like theories around this, and I just like I see it everywhere. And I'm like how how to describe and this is probably my own, like lack of education in this area, but the demonization and marginalisation of like black sexuality, black beauty, and then like, white women being celebrated for it and like white, like I saw this really hilarious TikTok of this woman basically being like not showing a woman, not showing women's faces and just going, Is it a black woman or is it a white woman with tan. And like going through and I was like, Oh my goodness, like there's not a lot of difference. What is going on there?
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, so I think what you're describing is a phenomenon coined by a an incredible writer named Juana Thompson, she calls it black fishing. Where it's so interesting that we are in this cultural moment where the, the aesthetics of blackness like vague allusions to blackness meaning kind of tanned skin, you know, and the big lips and the big bottoms, you know, like stuff that kind of feels black but it's not all the way black, like that stuff is now fetishize, that stuff is now put on a pedestal. And that allows just another way for white women or honestly, even non black women because I've seen some people who are not white, you know, Latina and Asian, I think kind of co-opting some of the black women's like jush too. And so you can adopt these things, adopt these aesthetics, and then further and further marginalise black women. Pretend like black women don't exist, pretend like you just came up with this stuff. You know, like, I've always been into it. And so that is just a continuation of like a history of just exploiting black women, like using our bodies and disregarding the rest of us.
Hannah Witton
I hadn't heard that term before, black fishing. But yes, that's good to, it's nice when you're like, oh, there's a word for that phenomenon, so we can use that to point out more and actually, like, shed a light on it, so we can talk about it and expose it a basically.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, you know, and that's why I'm obsessed with theory. I think theory comes in all different kinds of forms. It's not just, it's not just found in academia. It's not just in colleges or graduate schools. It really is, I mean, intersectionality comes from theory, black fishing, Juana is a writer, right? She's not an academic, but she came up with an incredible term that encompasses what we all know to be true. And so something that I do try to underscore in all of my platforms is, you know, this stuff that kind of feels so far away and like highfalutin, like, no, it's really applicable in our everyday lives. It helps us really easily and succinctly describe phenomena. So you know, you're not crazy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's so true actually. You're just like, oh, there is a thing for this, and there's a name for it, and other people who've seen it, too. I want to ask how much are the Kardashians to blame?
Kimberly Foster
A lot honestly, yeah, a lot. Seriously.
Hannah Witton
Because part of me is like, that's where I see this trend coming from. But also, I'm like, is it too simplistic just to blame one family? But also they're so powerful and influential.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, it's, it's, okay. So, I think, the Kardashians are big on this. And I think if I were, if I were first forced to pinpoint like, a primary cause, I might point to them. But there are other celebrities who do dabble in this. I would say, Jennifer Lopez dabbles in this too, and she's been doing it longer than the Kardashians. Even though that's a little tricky, because she talks about her upbringing, and but but I absolutely believe that Kimberly Kardashian, should I just call her Kimberly cuz I go by Kimberly, so I just called her Kimberly? okay, whatever. Okay, Kim Kardashian, because she was able to become so famous and so visible and so rich, co-opting these aesthetics, people recognise Oh, there's a currency here. Oh, I can get a larger platform if I emulate this, right. So she has created a blueprint that people, because we live in capitalist societies, people want to follow that pattern, they want to get what she has and do what she does. So, and then of course Kim trickles down to Khloe, and then Kim and Khloe trickle down to Kylie, and so it's a never ending cycle.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true about it being a currency but but it being one that white women can opt into and opt out of, if they want to.
Kimberly Foster
Absolutely. Kim, now that she is super super rich, could wake up tomorrow, this probably won't happen. But she could wake up tomorrow and say, I want to be, I want to be my natural skin colour, because we know she uses really really dark tan. And she could say I want to, I don't know, I'm trying to think of two, I want to dress like Anne Hathaway, you know what I'm saying? Like I love Anne Hathaway, that's not that's not shade, right? But when I just thought of like,
Hannah Witton
You're just trying to think of a white woman who's like,
Kimberly Foster
Okay, I actually don't like that Anne Hathaway get so much shit, but okay. But, so she decided that she wanted to mimic that kind of aesthetic, she could and she could transform effortlessly, and she wouldn't lose anything. You know, she already has a huge platform, she already has millions, I think maybe if she count the net worth of her husband, like a billion over a billion dollars or something, she'd be perfectly fine. Where as black women, we can't opt in and opt out, right. And we still suffer enormous consequences for the stigmas attached to our bodies and these aesthetics.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so true. I feel like I see it a lot in, like, fashion companies and their advertisements and the models that they use. They will really try not to use black models, especially like dark skin models, but instead use really tanned white women.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, you know, there's that. And there's also you know, I have a video talking about what I would call like the mixed race aesthetic, where there is also now this desire to be able to tap into adjacency to blackness, right, like an exotic kind of thing, where you don't necessarily have to explicitly say like, you know, I'm, I'm a brown skinned black woman, I have big lips, I have a big butt, right? Like I am black, unambiguously black. Right. And so I also see, there's the rise of like white women who are trying to do this, but then there is still a fettish, fetishization. Fetishization? That was tricky for me. But there is this putting on a pedestal of mixed race women, right, with the curly hair and the lighter skin. So then, if you are a fashion house, or if you are a casting director, you get to say, Well, you know, she's not white. You know, like, you know, like, she's not, you know, we're not doing the thing. But still, the pricing of that kind of aesthetic still marginalises black women, so it's just, it's happening on so many different levels.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. One of the things that's kind of like, adjacent to this, that we see in music a lot and also like in TV, and I wanted to specifically shout out the video that you did about the spectacle of sexual liberation, which was mostly about the WAP music video, but obviously, like, it goes much broader than that, and I would love you to explain to us, what is the spectacle of sexual liberation versus what real sexual liberation looks like?
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, so what I always try to do with my videos is use a timely piece of pop culture to make a much larger point. So at the time that I recorded that video, everybody was talking about WAP which is the song and the music video with Cardi B featuring Megan Thee Stallion, and they are talking about their vaginas. Can you say vagina? That's that's not
Hannah Witton
You can absolitely say vagina
Kimberly Foster
They use a different word, but I do not use that word. Okay. So um, basically what we see in most of Cardi's work and, honestly, most of Megan's work, is they are playing these women who are super sexually liberated and dominant. And you know, Megan loves to rap about, I'll take your man and your men, you know, my man does whatever I want him to do, and my vagina is so good, and my sex is the best and all of that. And so when I am talking about the spectacle, sexual liberation, I'm really talking about performances. And those two women are not the only people who do that kind of performance. Really, the point that I'm trying to make is that performance is really pervasive right now. I mean, it's really easy, particularly when we're talking about black music, and really rap music in particular, the women who shine, the women who get hits in rap music, they they are invested in that kind of performance. Yes, I have sex and it feels great, and I'm the best at it, and all these men want me. But then we see them in other areas of their lives, in their their interviews, on their social media, say stuff and I'm like, Well, that doesn't sound very sexually liberated. Say things, they say things that are slut shameing or they, you know, talk about feeling insecure, you know, not wanting to be seen with lots of men, because they don't want people to judge them and all of this and I'm saying
Hannah Witton
Slut shaming.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, there's a disconnect there. And why is there a disconnect there? Why are we telling women that the only way that you can be sexually liberated or the only arena in which this is acceptable, or where you should be able to explore a powerful sexuality, is when you are commodifying it. It's when you are trying to sell a product, right? I think it's much more important that we are able to transfer all of that stuff into our personal lives, into our interpersonal relationships, into our romantic relationships. And I just have not seen, I've seen a lot of performance. I've seen a lot of exposed bodies, which I don't have a problem with, right? Like, if you want to be, look, I am not that type of feminist. Be naked, like do like, talk about all of this sex that you want. But I do want to make sure that we find a balance, right, that we are also spending as much time encouraging women and empowering women to really embody liberated sexuality, and powerful sexuality, and like, orgasms, like so many of us are not having orgasms. We don't know how to have orgasms, right? We don't know how, we don't know how to set good boundaries in our romantic relationships. We don't know how to stop slut shaming ourselves and other women, you know. And so I just, I want to encourage us to think of this as a whole, you know, in totality, and not have to carve up ourselves into sexually empowered public figure versus meek, demure, you're like, I don't even have sex, you know, in private, like, No.
Hannah Witton
Well, the sexually liberated woman or the sexually liberated person, is somebody who can, you know, if we're talking about the commodification of it, and like being able to sell records or get views on a music video, like if you're sexually liberated, truly, you should be allowed to do that, to make money with your clothes on or your clothes off, whatever you choose, rather than feeling like, well, I will, this will get more hits, if I've got my clothes off.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, yeah. And that's another thing I did talk about in the video is about the coercion, right? So if we are really serious about finding a pathway for all women to be sexually liberated, then that sexual liberation shouldn't have to look like a specific thing. And so often equate sexual liberation with being unclothed, and doing certain kinds of dances and again, back to participating in a certain kind of really, really narrow performance. And so everything else gets put outside of that box. And I just don't, I mean, I don't, you know, I'm 31 years old, not not as young as I used to be. I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be, I feel real good about my sex life. I'm not gonna be out here in the in the bootleg. Sorry, that time has passed.
Hannah Witton
It's about feeling good with your sex life. Like, what, it's not like this scripted thing of like, oh, sexual liberation is, you know, whatever the rap lyrics are. It is, like you said, it's about finding pleasure in your own way, like, whatever that looks like for you.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah. And I will say that, when I decided to make my quest for sexual liberation, more internal, like I started having way better sex, like way better sex, and, like, being much more confident, and really, for me, the game changer is being able to really clearly articulate my desires. Not only to myself, but to my partners, you know, like, that is a different kind of work. And yes, I do still want to feel good in my body, and I still still get sexy, you know, maybe not so in public because. But, again, if that's what you want to do, I so support it. But I'm saying that like, when I decided to put my energy in a different space, the world opened up for me. I, what I really worry about, and what I really want to emphasise, is there is a realm of like, sexual possibility and freedom and like that, I just feel like we're not unlocking, we are not even able to get to the next levels, because we're kind of stuck doing that superficial stuff.
Hannah Witton
We can't even picture it, we don't even know what it looks like. Yeah, that's brilliant. I absolutely love the idea of going on an internal quest for your own sexual liberation. And I highly encourage like everybody to do that. That is such a beautiful way of thinking of it because it's just it's so true. Because we were so easily influenced by all of these external messages about who we should be having sex with, what kind of sex that we should be having, how we should be performing during sex, and how we should feel about our own bodies. But taking it, like, inwards looking inwards and going, actually, what do I want?
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, but yeah, going from external to internal is just, again, like, the game changer.
Hannah Witton
Absolute game changer. On the like, the spectacle and the performance aspect. One thing that you mentioned in that video that was like a penny drop moment for me, was about how the way that in more commodified spaces ,what we see in what we visualise as women's sexual liberation. If you just did a side by side of it with something that was like, created a few decades ago, it still looks male gaze-ey. And it's like, how is this thing that we were supposed to have created ourselves still look similar to what we would have called male gaze, even if it was created by women? And I was like, oh, yeah.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah. You know, people have challenged me on this, and I am open to reassessing my relationship to the phrase, male gaze. But what I will say is, it is concerning, it's disconcerting to me that we keep reproducing the exact same images. I think that we've just talked about images matter, and they normalise certain things, and they marginalise certain things. And if we just keep reproducing the same thing over and over again, it does dampen our imagination. It does inhibit our ability to think of new things, and even our desire to think outside of the box because if that's the right way to do it, I don't want to go outside of that, I don't want to be the weird one, I don't want to be sexy, right. And so if we are just, intentionally, if we are opting into these kinds of boxes, if we are opting into these kinds of constraints, I really just think that we are choosing not to get the full scope, the full range of pleasure, the full range of sexiness. I often think of, you know, are the most popular images of desirable sexuality are, are about a certain kind of performance of womanhood, right. And there are so many different kinds of ways to be a woman, you know, and so I want all women, all along the spectrum of femininity, all along the spectrum of womanhood, like I want you to be able to see something that you can relate to, and that you can opt into. And we're just not giving that. And maybe we're expecting too much of mainstream media, like I don't want to put out again, again, I also want to underscore that this is not about Cardi B, this is not about Megan Thee Stallion, this is not their responsibility, right? My critique is of an industry. My critique is of markets, right? And the way that those markets determine what we choose to do, you know, but they have too much influence on stuff that is really, really personal.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. All coming back to capitalism, baby. We love bringing it back to capitalism. I wanted to ask, so what what tools do we need, to be able to like spot and critique these messages that we do receive about black women and sexuality?
Kimberly Foster
Okay, so this is why I do the work that I do. Because I was not even able to recognise these patterns. I was not even able to recognise these really horrible, degrading, stereotypical images, until I engage deeply with literature. And I took many feminism classes in college and black history classes in college. And it's so crazy, because sometimes I'm sure everybody's seen the Wizard of Oz, right? So it's like, when things go from black and white to colour, Right?
Hannah Witton
I actually had that, I had that image in my head when your internal quest. When you're talking about like, all of those possibilities, and the freedom, like I literally was thinking of like, somewhere over the rainbow.
Kimberly Foster
Yes, that's, that's so it, right? Because we are taught to think in grayscale. And so when I was able to engage deeply with the literature of a black feminist like Audrey Lorde, who wrote an incredible essay about the uses of the erotic. When I was able to engage with a womanist, or black feminist like Alice Walker. And more recently, I've been loving the work of a woman named Jennifer Nash, who was kind of challenging me in different ways. When I Oh, and also sorry, I'm just I'm just naming black feminist.
Hannah Witton
Oh, no, I love it. We love resources.
Kimberly Foster
Erm Joan Morgan is incredible on this. But there's just so much literature on this that I was, have been able to dig deep into ever since I really became a serious feminist about 13 years ago, and that stuff helps me to keep my imagination going, to like really think of new things, and ask the right questions, and push up against the boundaries. I think that's really important. But I decided to do this kind of work and make videos because I recognise everybody's not gonna read those books, right. And so we need to make this information as accessible as possible. So I think it's important for us to engage with TV, movies, music that is pushing for the counter narratives, alternative views, you know, the mainstream is fun, again, pop culture obsessed Kimberly's not gonna tell y'all. Look, I still watch Keeping Up With The Kardashians, I haven't watched it in a couple of weeks, but I still watch it occasionally. But that cannot be the only thing that we're engaging with. We have to do different stuff. And we're not going to be able to imagine different, if we are not internalising different.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love the bringing in of imagination it it because it's, I mean, it's fortunate because imagination is wonderful. But it's like, unfortunate, that, that we have to kind of flex our, like, imagination muscles in order to even try and like envision how things could be and like, what could we change, and how like, what are the different ways that we can relate to one another? And how it's not laid out for us, and we do have to do that, like brain power. We have to do that work internally to be like, hang on a second.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, you know, I don't think, I get what you're saying. But I don't think that that's unfortunate, I find that to be really, really exciting. I find it to be really exciting that the stuff that we've been given is not how it has to be that there are there are new terrains and new possibilities out there that have yet to be explored.
Hannah Witton
That moment you realise, hang on, there's more out there.
Kimberly Foster
Absolutely. Like I really feel like the work of feminism is fundamentally about world building. I said that in the video, you know, like, we have new ideas, we have different tools. So let's make something else. And that process of building and exploring and rattling things and getting it all together. Like that's been like, that's, that's a journey that we all can all embark on. So it is certainly overwhelming, especially when you feel like oh my god, you know, especially when I was making that video, I was like, people are gonna hate me. Everybody loves a bop, you know, like, I'm going to be the feminist killjoy. Like that's not like, that's not the fun part. But the fun part is like the stuff that comes afterwards,
Hannah Witton
Did you get much backlash when people were just like, I love this?
Kimberly Foster
I got less backlash than I was expecting. There was, I would say 30% backlash and 70% of people being like, oh, I never thought of it this way. Or you've you've articulated something that I've been thinking or feeling or or couldn't put together. But yeah, there are people who really, I have I have deep disagreements with because, okay, so I think like a popular feminist line, and I think the the most accepted feminist line, especially among younger women is, this these kinds of images are are liberating. And that's it, you know, and like that, that cannot be questioned, and they're choosing to do it, and they feel good about it. So there's nothing else to say, I don't feel that way. And so I understood that that was going to be challenging for some people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like both can be true. And this is something I feel like I've been coming up against in so many of the different, like areas and things that I've been exploring, is I'm just like, hang on, it doesn't have to be one or the other, like both can be true.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah. And I said that in the video, right? Like, it's not either or, we don't live in binaries. Our stuff is really messy, like a lot of us are living in the grey. And it's the balance of empowerment versus coercion is the word that I used in the video. It's so situational. In one in one moment, it can be 30/70. In one moment, it's 50/50. Right? We do have to be able to find nuance and have a kind of sophistication in our analysis, that allows for us to hold all of this stuff. because it is. It's everything at once.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. Right? We have some questions from our folks over on Instagram. Somebody asked, when it comes to the hyper sexualization of BIPOC artists, how does that, or how has it, impacted or influenced your own sex/romantic life in relationship to your body?
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, this is definitely something that I've had to work through, particularly in my 20s when you're like, you want to, when you're starting to have a lot of sex. Well, okay, a lot. Let's not overstate the case here. But when you started
Hannah Witton
Having a sexual life.
Kimberly Foster
When you're having and sexual life, and trying to figure out what feels good, and what feels right, and what makes me feel sexy. But also, you want to appeal to your partner, you want to be sexy to the person who you want to have sex with. So what do they like? And if I do this, is he gonna like it, you know. And so, finding that balance is really, really hard. When you're inundated with images that say, men like this, men want this, like the women are the most sexually desirable, they get the most stuff because everybody wants to have sex with them. Like that was definitely hard for me. And then, as I just got older, I just, I don't know, there is something, obviously, this isn't automatic. There's not like a switch that flips, but I guess there's just a maturation process, and evolution process when you realise like, he's gonna like whatever I give, right? Like, if you make it into my bedroom, or if I consent to being in your bedroom, you're gonna take what I give, right? And obviously, consent matters. And I do want to please my partner, you know, the sex cannot be selfish. But, I also cannot be too obsessed with, you know, I used to, I used to not even, like want to sweat when I was, like, you know, like, what faces am I making and like, what noises and like, Oh, my gosh, my body and you know, all of that stuff. And it's like, no, girl, we're here to have fun. Okay. We're here, we're here to have fun. We're here to explore our pleasure, you know, and so, trying to box out, you know, those images really, really, it helps me but that stuff has really, really changed for me over the last three years.
Hannah Witton
I honestly think that if we, like as a society or just like reframed sex as playtime, like adult playtime
Kimberly Foster
Totally
Hannah Witton
Instead of like, this performance thing where kids you know, this, like this whole notion of like being good in bed, which implies that it's just one person's technique, rather than it being like, two or more people coming together and having fun. Adult play time, all about that.
Kimberly Foster
Sex is an exploratory mission. And like, sometimes it's messy, and sometimes it's awkward, and there's noises, and their spaces, and hair, and fluids. And it's like, it's not gonna be picture perfect. just embrace it. You just have to embrace the journey.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Embrace the exploratory mission. Somebody asked, how do you engage with such serious topics without the despair overwhelming you?
Kimberly Foster
Oh, yeah. I have a healthy dose of despair. Yeah, I mean, I am a, I'm a big crier. I cry all the time. I mean, a couple of weeks ago, when Donald Trump was still president. I mean, technically still president, right. But before, before he was elected, I literally cried because I was like, Oh, my gosh, this man could be president for four more years, like the world is shit, like, everything is awful, everything is bad. But I also recognise that it is our responsibility as people who care, to do what we can to change it. None of this stuff is inevitable. It doesn't have to be this way. And so, I have to pick myself up, dust myself often say, okay, how can I contribute to making a change? And that keeps me from completely falling apart? Every once in a while, there's like little mini breakdowns, but I don't think I've ever just completely been like, sorry, not that I was gonna like cuss like really hard, but I've never I've never just been like, let's just give up. Never.
Hannah Witton
That's good. Have that healthy little cry, or big cry, and then carry on.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's, it's it's tricky though. It's tricky because the dispair like, and I think it's also okay to be kind to yourself, if the despair like is getting to you. And you know, give yourself a break. Be kind to yourself, but then like, like you said, kind of be like, we're all working towards this. Yeah.
Kimberly Foster
I also say, I like a lot of fluffy stuff. You know, I don't, I do not only consume gloom and doom. I cannot do that. I love to watch music videos, love to watch trash tv, like that's one of my favourite pastimes. So you just have to find outlets for your joy. Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so true. The joy thing, with with pleasure as well, like we have this, we think of all kinds of pleasures a selfish, and also when you when you hear the word pleasure, it's become so synonymous with like sexual pleasure, that we think of any kind of like non-sexual pleasure also as, like, seedy, and bad, and selfish. And it's just like, no, like a pleasure and joy, and fun, like these are all things that are so integral to our humanity, and being able to do the work, and being able to show up as our best selves every day. I've definitely had this thing this year of being like, well, if something is not like, contributing something really important to the world, then it's not worth my time and then being like, no, hang on something can have the pure function of entertainment. And that's okay.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, I know, this is so true, I have to shout out this book called Pleasure Activism by Adrienne Maree Brown
Hannah Witton
That is on my TBR
Kimberly Foster
She really really deeply explores this. Pleasure is a sustaining source, you know, like that, the the font and which we all have to drink from when we are feeling like we can't go on so, we cannot let that dry up. We gotta we got to tap into it.
Hannah Witton
That pleasure well, gotta keep it nice, and I was gonna say, lubricated. That was the first thing that came into my head
Kimberly Foster
But you're right, though you're not wrong.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Somebody asked, thoughts on how sex positivity is acceptable, but only if you're white/thin/young.
Kimberly Foster
Yeah, you know, I have to say, gosh, I do not describe myself as sex positive. I just, there's all, I can't get into it now. But I will say that, absolutely, that there are terrains of exploration that are simply not available to people who don't move through the world in, like, a normal white, normative, feminine body. You know, if you are too masculine, if you are not white, if you are fat, right, if like, absolutely, right, people are disgusted by women, particularly exploring pleasure and sex and all of that stuff, if they exist outside of that. And that, again, is where that radical imagination comes in. That, again, is why we have to, not only create counter narratives, but uplift counter narratives, distribute, disseminate counter narratives, you know, because it doesn't have to be that way. We know like, what the powers that be want to show us ,and what they want to tell us about who we are, and what we should do. But we don't have to opt in to that we can do different stuff.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. And for anyone else who's listening who often feels not included in, like, the sex positive movement, or narrative, I hear a lot of people using sex critical.
Kimberly Foster
Interesting
Hannah Witton
As a way of thinking, because obviously, like sex positive is countered to sex negativity, which we don't like. And so, but then, like, the being sex critical is like, is the somewhere not necessary somewhere in the middle, but just kind of going, like, let's actually not all sex is good, and not everyone has, like, I think there's like this pressure as well, like not only as a sex positive movement, not not necessarily always inclusive, like you said, of different races, different body sizes, but also this idea of like, oh, being sex positive is like having loads of sex and being super sexually liberated and then like, people who don't necessarily always enjoy sex might not feel included in that and also, like asexual people. Like sex critical, for some people, is a is a better term for like, hey, let's like, think more nuanced about this.
Kimberly Foster
Totally. You know, that is totally, I've been thinking about this too, about how just having sex does not mean that you are liberated. You know, like, I've had lots of bad sex where I was like, Whoa, how did that happen? Or like, I'm like, wow, why did you, why didn't you stop it? Why didn't you say something? Right? So yeah, I'm totally into that. Totally.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, Kimberly, thank you so much. Where can people find you online? What would you like to plug?
Kimberly Foster
Sure so you can watch my videos on the For Harriet YouTube channel. Just Google For Harriet, type in For Harriet on YouTube, they are so available and then you'll also see the people who make videos about me saying that I'm setting women back, okay. And then @ForHarriet on Instagram, @ForHarriet on Twitter, and you can also find me on Twitter, Instagram @kimberlynfoster or kimberlynfoster.com
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Well, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you.
Kimberly Foster
Thank you so much for having me, Hannah. This was wonderful.
Hannah Witton
Oh, and thank you all for listening, bye. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk, and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast