Realising You're Gay & Ending a Long Term Relationship with Alayna Joy | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Alayna Joy
100% am going through baby gay excitement. Like I am, It's all I think about. It's all I think about. It's all I want to talk about, my friends are so sick of me. Like, I'm just so excited about being gay.
Hannah Witton
You're going through puberty.
Alayna Joy
I am, I am a pubescent teen at this point like I'm giddy.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It and the final guest interview of 2020 of this season. There will be a solo episode next week with just me and then I will leave you alone for a couple of weeks. I promise. I'm very excited to bring you this episode and that my final guest of the year is my dear dear friend Elena joy. Alina is a Canadian content creator. We've been pals since our early starts on YouTube, and Alina makes LGBTQ+, self compassion, and mindfulness content. This episode is going to be all about Elena's experience this year ending her long term relationship with a man after realising she was in fact not bisexual, but is gay. We talk about her journey with her sexuality over the years and why she thinks it took her until her late 20s to realise that she was gay, compulsory heterosexuality. There's so much stuff we talk about from battling compared to sexuality labels, why are loads of women realising they're gay in the lock down, bisexual erasure, sexual desire, and Elena's excited baby gay phase. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. Thanks so much for listening and all your support for the podcast over this year. I really, really appreciate it. If you'd like this podcast, why don't you leave us a lovely review in iTunes. But for now here is Alayna Joy and her story. Alayna Joy, welcome.
Alayna Joy
Hello.
Hannah Witton
Thank you for being here
Alayna Joy
Thank you for having me. We're starting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. How are you? How is being gay?
Alayna Joy
I can give the same answer for both questions. Wonderful.
Hannah Witton
Wonderful, I love that.
Alayna Joy
Yeah I'm doing wonderful. Being gay is wonderful. 10 out of 10 would recommend.
Hannah Witton
We're gonna dive into all of the kind of like intricacies and nuances of your experience. But I think first just like long story short - what? how? when?
Alayna Joy
Oh, god long story, long, long, long story. Short,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we'll into the details.
Alayna Joy
Okay.
Hannah Witton
Just the top line, what happened.
Alayna Joy
Let me try to give me the sparknotes version.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Alayna Joy
I thought that I was bi for a really long time. For years, when I first discovered kind of this idea of bisexuality, I think I was 18, maybe 19. When I learned that person could be bi and I was like, ah
Hannah Witton
And you were in a relationship at that time.
Alayna Joy
Yes. So yeah, I'm like, how far do you want me to rewind to try to give you the short version
Hannah Witton
I think that's a good place to start
Alayna Joy
Okay. So I, basically, I had had experiences with both men and women, my entire life. So I thought, Oh, my God, bisexuality, that is me. Like, let's go, let's do it. I was in a relationship with my ex partner at the time already. This was like 10 years ago, almost. And I started coming out, I came out to friends. I came out to my partner at the time. And that was all like, nifty, everything was going great. Until we hit about basically, the story, I guess, so basically, I had come out to some friends. I came out to my ex partner, and then, for me, I was like, great, now this is done. I never need to talk about it again. I told people, they know, now I can be quiet about it. That's all I need. A couple more years go by and we come up to about five years ago, where I had a complete breakdown after watching Ingrid Nelson's coming out video. Complete, complete breakdown. Panic of me thinking, oh, what if I'm gay, she's just come out as gay. This is someone who you never would stereotypically have expected to come out as gay. I identified with a lot of the things that she was saying. Complete panic.
Hannah Witton
She'd also been in a long term relationship with a man as well, I'm just remembering that. Yeah,
Alayna Joy
Ah ha, she was in a long term relationship with a man, she was fairly feminine presenting, she was into more feminine things like I was at the time. And it just really shook me. And so I had this conversation. Oh my god, a long, long, long story short, I, I had this conversation with my partner, where I freaked out, I was like, I think I'm gay. We talked about it, we rationalised ourselves into the conclusion that I definitely wasn't gay. I was definitely bi. And what had happened was that it was just because I hadn't told my family yet. I was keeping it from the internet, it was something I didn't talk about. So I was like, what must be happening is that I'm, I've been suppressing this part of myself. And so it's just bubbling up in this explosive way, where I'm now overcompensating, and thinking that I'm gay.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you guys were half true.
Alayna Joy
Right, I'm so close.
Hannah Witton
You got half of it.
Alayna Joy
And so we were like, Okay, great. But the solution to this problem is that I'm going to come out to my family, I'm going to come out to the internet. And we just started discussing opening up our relationships so I can explore that side of my sexuality.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I remember this so well, when you were telling me and some of our friends, when we would see each other, we would call it 'the situation'. Do you remember that?
Alayna Joy
So this is actually wild, because this I think, is the first time that I'm talking about this, like, publicly with a friend, like you have known me through this entire experience. Usually what I'm talking about is it's either like to my camera or I'm doing interviews with people that I don't know. This is like, you were there.
Hannah Witton
I was there. I remember, I was I was honestly surprised in your, like, more recent coming out video, where you mentioned about having well, relationships or whatever, oh, like, you know, experiencing, being with other women whilst you were still in your relationship. And I was just like, Oh, she's going there, she's talking about that?
Alayna Joy
Yeah, let's just, let's just say it how it is like you were there at the YouTube events. You were there.
Hannah Witton
I was a witness to it all.
Alayna Joy
You saw it first-hand. But so we decided to open up our relationship in this way, so I could explore that side of myself. And that was wonderful. We had this, because my ex, my partner at the time, and I we had this beautiful supportive relationship. And I thought I was like, I have everything I could possibly want. Right? Like this, is this is like, how did I find this one? So great. Um, so that was Yeah, maybe like five years ago. Fast forward to lock down, quarantine 2020. And this kind of queer community, this queer side of myself that I had been building, whether that was at these, you know, YouTube events, whether that was in my life here in Vancouver, I'd started building this this new sense of queer community that I had never had before. And lockdown took that away. Yeah. And I was now just living, you know, the other half of my life, like, what I felt at the time was my quote, unquote, real life. Like I would think of my life as my YouTube life, my queer life and my real life.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Alayna Joy
Which now looking back
Hannah Witton
Compartmentalised it all
Alayna Joy
I had completely compartmentalise it. And looking back, I'm like, Oh, the YouTube life also was the queer life. Like that was all one big bubble. I didn't see that at the time. So with all of that taken away, we just all of the, Oh, also, we, you know, my partner and I had gotten engaged only a few months earlier. So we were starting wedding planning. I was having all these, all this anxiety and panic around the idea of planning a wedding and getting married and I couldn't figure that out. And then I just, it hit me. Oh, can't rationalise this one away anymore. Yeah, I'm actually gay. And there it was.
Hannah Witton
There it was. The long story short, and we're gonna get into so much of it. I have a really niche question for you. So the last time we hung out
Alayna Joy
Yeah
Hannah Witton
We made a video together about how you're such an Aries, you find it really difficult to change your mind, and you are having a lot of anxiety about changing your mind about doing a masters. And it's so like and I was like, oh hang is this another Aries thing of Alayna, like you made your decision. You're like sticking with your decision. And that whole like, Oh, I have to changing your mind isn't just like, it can be really flippant thing sometimes, but in your case, it's completely uprooting your entire life.
Alayna Joy
Mm hmm. So, yeah, absolutely, like the, the level of anxiety and panic that you saw in the, I'm deciding to not go back for my Masters, like, multiply that by minimum 15.
Hannah Witton
Aw bless you
Alayna Joy
You know, because it's not, it's wasn't just, oh, I'm choosing a different path. But sure, you could say it that way. But it's, I'm ending everything about my life that I know, you know, I'm changing. I'm flipping every plan that I had. On this, what at the time, there was a you know, there's also this question in my head of like, is this a whim? Am I making a huge mistake? You know, am I ending my relationship? Am I, I didn't know at the time, but like, potentially ending my career online. It's my whole channel, my whole everything online, my identity was around being bi. And how we were valid as a bisexual person in a relationship with a man or up with somebody of the opposite gender. It was just a lot of uncertainty. And so yeah, the anxiety was tenfold.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so one thing, when I watched your, your like coming out video when you're coming out as gay, one thing that struck me by watching that was about compulsory heterosexuality. And you didn't talk about it in that video, but that actually was what inspired me making my video about comphets.
Alayna Joy
No way.
Hannah Witton
And I saw that you made that video and I saw that video and I was like, okay, so I didn't know what compulsory heterosexuality was.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I forgot to tell you because then you made your video about comphets and the lesbian like, am I a lesbian? masterdoc? Uh huh. Like, it was all coming full circle, full circle. B and there was just something about the way that you were talking about your experience of just having this sexuality blueprint. Like ready made for you and you felt because you were in a relationship with a man and because you, it was like a good healthy, loving, kind relationship. You were like, Oh, well, that fits me. Great. I'm just gonna put that on. But yeah, yeah. And that's what inspired me to kind of go, this seems to be a thing.
Hannah Witton
Yes, you didn't name it in the video. It just got me thinking.
Alayna Joy
I didn't know what I was talking about. I was just sharing my experience. And then the whole comment section is people saying, this is compulsory heterosexuality. You have to look this up. You have to check this out. You made your video. I went and watched that and I'm like, oh my god. Like I am the definition of somebody falling into this compulsory heterosexuality trap. And then yeah, I went and looked up that lesbian masterdoc. I yeah, that's, yep, that's what, that's what is.
Hannah Witton
What, for the people, what is, can you give us a quick definition of what compulsory heterosexuality is?
Alayna Joy
It's a mouthful. Essentially, compulsory heterosexuality means that the, the norm or the default is straight, is cis, is cis men, cis woman relationship, get married forever. And that that's what we are, that's what we're presented, and that's what we are socialised into. And that, like I said, already, that's the default. And so, for me growing up, like how I was saying, I've always had experiences with both men and women. I never questioned my experiences with men. I never even questioned that. My question my experiences with women constantly.
Hannah Witton
That's such a good point. We just like take it at face value.
Alayna Joy
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
We never interrogate it.
Alayna Joy
No. Like I never like I never even, I remember finding out what a lesbian was. I remember thinking, Oh, like women can be gay, because like, I didn't know that for a long time. I grew up in a very conservative small town, very religious. The only education or information I had about being gay was that it was a sin, and disgusting, and shameful. And all these things like that was it. i until I found out that Ellen DeGeneres was gay. And I was like, oh, woman can be gay.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, shock horror!
Alayna Joy
Yeah, like it did. Yeah, I was I remember where I was. When I I found that out back in junior high. And so and then when I found out about bisexuality, it was the same thing. I was just like, well, I obviously like men, that is a given. There is no question about that. Because I had never questioned it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Alayna Joy
And then, yeah, when I did start actually, like, looking at that a little bit deeper, it was like, oh, red flag, red flag, red flag.
Hannah Witton
It's it's an interesting one, because it like it permeates so deep that people, because like that, that lesbian, am I a masterdoc, is honestly I think it's enlightening for anyone to read, because I've already had a read through it as well. And it just made me realise just how pervasive and intrusive like cis heteronormativity is in our lives, in terms of like, assuming that even if you think that somebody is fun to hang out with, if you think that they are aesthetically pleasing to look at, you interpret those things as romantic attraction or a crush, just because they happen to be a man, like if you're a woman, rather than being like, and you might have exactly those same feelings for women, like, Oh, I enjoy hanging out with them. And she's pretty, but you don't automatically go, Oh, I must have a romantic crush on the.
Alayna Joy
It's exactly the opposite. Right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're like, oh, we're just best friends.
Alayna Joy
Like, I was like, I had a full on relationship with my quote, unquote, best friend in high school, like we were fully dating. But it was like, we're just such close friends. This is just how close friends are towards other like, absolutely not. And then I had all these relationships with men that were just like, friendships. And I was like, Oh, we must be, I must have a crush on them. Let's kiss now.
Hannah Witton
Wow. It's like you talked yourself into fancying them.
Alayna Joy
Without even, well, so the big thing for me, like that's a common experience is like having that active discussion in your own mind to, convince yourself of something that was never my experience. For me, the thing that I realised now, this realisation that changed everything was that I was confusing the experience of enjoying being desired as experiencing desire myself. So I enjoyed flirting with men. I enjoyed being desired. I enjoyed the the back and forth and the like, the whole crush thing and whatever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Alayna Joy
I genuinely enjoyed those experiences. And so there was no question in my head that I was, at least that you know, yeah,
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting, because I think it's a completely like, normal thing for people to enjoy feeling desired. And like flirting is really fun. Like, almost like, doesn't matter necessarily who it's with. However, because of the patriarchy and this idea that a woman's life is only valuable if there's a man involved in and if there is desire from a man, that almost plays into you enjoying it more, because you're like, this is something that validates me as a human being
Alayna Joy
absolutely. Like it feels it felt powerful. Here's a story. I don't think I'm told this online before
Hannah Witton
Exclusive
Alayna Joy
Maybe? I can't remember. But a huge turning point moment for me. Oh, I should. So I should say, just to sum that up, that then when I started exploring more relationships with women or non binary folks, I started experiencing desire, and it was like, oh, something here is very different than the way that I felt in the past. But another red flag moment I was talking with, I was talking with a partner at the time. And we were talking about bisexuality and experiences with men, experiences with women. And I had said that, I had said that sleeping with men, and these experiences that I would have with men, like I always felt, I always felt really powerful. And I always felt like, you know, like, yeah, like, You're welcome. I always kind of felt afterward when I would have these, like, if I have a fling or whatever. Yeah. It's always the experiences felt like I wanted to say, Yeah, you're welcome. Like, here I am. You're welcome. Yeah. And
Hannah Witton
I mean I often say that after sex,
Alayna Joy
As you should, as anybody should, right. You are giving a gift.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I actually did, I actually did like, have a one night stand when I was like, 17 and the person said, Thank you afterwards, and it was the weirdest
Alayna Joy
Oh my goodness. No one's like really saying the words, thank you, but like,
Hannah Witton
It was very strange
Alayna Joy
This was the feeling right? Yeah. Not with like, not with my long term partner but with other experiences, right? And then they were like, okay, is it the same with women or with non binary folks? Like, do you do you always feel that way? It's like, You're welcome. I was like, No, when I sleep with women, or not men, it feels like I want to say thank you. And they, I remember them saying to me, shouldn't you always want to say thank you? Like, shouldn't it always feel like a like a thank you? And uh, you're welcome
Hannah Witton
Like, you're grateful for the experience, yeah.
Alayna Joy
And then now looking back, I'm like, Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
What were some of the signs, I guess, but now that you're out as a gay woman, and you can kind of like look back on them? What are some things that you like previously, compartmentalised and rationalised away that you're like, Oh, hang on, there it is, there it is, there it is.
Alayna Joy
Hannah, where would I even start? Where would I even start? I, I can say that there were so many things about my body that I just believed as true. Like, I just took it as like, Oh, this is, if my body would respond, or not respond, in a certain way, I would take that as, Oh, this is just the way that my body is, rather than, oh, I'm gay and I'm sleeping with men.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Alayna Joy
So there were so many things like that. But again, when I started sleeping with not men, I was like, oh, whoa, so many of these things that I thought were true are just not true anymore. That's weird. Must be a technique thing. This is what I tell myself. I told myself it was a difference in technique. Absolutely not.
Hannah Witton
I can see how, why you would come to that conclusion, though.
Alayna Joy
Yeah, I was like, Oh, this must be like the difference between, you know, sleeping with the different types of people, different types of people do different things. Your body's gonna respond differently.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Alayna Joy
No, no, Alayna. I mean, there's, there's so many things back in, you know, back in high school, this relationship that I had, with my quote, unquote, best friend. Yeah, I was fully in love with her. We were fully dating, like, we would make jokes about Oh, haha, wouldn't it be funny, if we, when we were older, we bought a house together, and the house would just have one bedroom. And everyone would think we're just so weird, like these weird old ladies that lived in the same house and had one bedroom?
Hannah Witton
Haha. Oh, wow. I love that.
Alayna Joy
So many things like that. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So this came up a couple of times when I asked people on Instagram for their questions for you. And I wonder, I also assume, that you have had similar stories as well, which is a lot of people, a lot of women, realising they're gay in lockdown.
Alayna Joy
This is, how is this such a common experience? There's so many of us.
Hannah Witton
There was one person in the, who asked me who like left a question just being like, yep, broke up with my husband. And I was like, wow, like, what is it? Quarantine vibes?
Alayna Joy
It's like, the one good thing to come out of corona. I don't know if we can say that. But like, if anything
Hannah Witton
People discovering their true selves
Alayna Joy
It's like cuz you I guess it's, for me, it really was about being taken away from my queer community. Like, that was really a, I think the nail in the coffin on my end was I couldn't run away from it anymore. I couldn't, if I was having these feelings, because I had this question all the time of whether or not I was gay, like I would have panics about it, you know, fairly regularly and within myself, and I would always be able to rationalise it away. And I would always be able to run off and go live my quote unquote queer life. Right? Yeah. So I never had to really face it.
Hannah Witton
You'd get your fix, your little gay fix.
Alayna Joy
No but really. Like that's what it felt like was I could go out and I could, exactly, get my fix. Live that queer part of myself. And then when lockdown took that away, it was like I had to, I couldn't, I couldn't ignore that this quote unquote queer part of myself was wasn't just a part of myself. It was really who, Who I was? Not that being bi makes you any less queer or that like, that means that your your sexuality or your queerness is only a part of yourself. That's not what I'm saying. But for me, it was like, Oh, this is, I'm just a big old gay.
Hannah Witton
Just a big old gay. I mean, that's, that's also another interesting thing is about the language as well, because you, in that first video you made, you stated you were like, I'm not comfortable with the word lesbian. Because even when you were bisexual, when you thought you were bisexual, you call yourself gay, you'd use like queer, gay, bi interchangeably. And then more recently, you said, Oh, actually, I've learned more about the term lesbian and its history and like what it means for people now and do you? Do you identify with it now? Or are you just more just kind of like, that's cool, but not for me. How do you feel about it?
Alayna Joy
Oh, it's this is such a big question. Because the language, especially with God, there's so much to unpack in terms of language. Even, here's another red flag go back to a previous question, me calling myself, using the word gay to refer to myself, when I was still identifying as bi. That took me five years to be able to do that, because I was so concerned, like something about it would not I could not have called myself gay.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you spoke about that on your channel as well, being like, as a bi person, can I use it? Can I call myself gay?
Alayna Joy
Yeah. And I had had this conversation with multiple queer folks in my life over the years. And everybody was like, yeah, Alayna, you can call yourself gay. And I was like, Well, I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. Because I was just gay.
Hannah Witton
But I'm not ready to admit that to anyone yet or myself.
Alayna Joy
But now, no, now I love in terms of my own identifiers, queer, gay, lesbian, dyke. homo, like, hit me with all of it. I love it.
Hannah Witton
You're just like, nom nom nom nom nom. I've been deprived for so long. Give me all of the labels.
Alayna Joy
Exactly. But, yeah, so I, my original thinking around being uncomfortable with the word lesbian was that I didn't want to exclude non binary folks. And the way that I had heard it was like, okay, lesbian is like exclusively a woman attracted to other women. I don't want to, like, close that box off to just folks who are like in the gender binary. Yeah, in that way. And then again, the comments. The comments teach me like, Oh, my God, they teach me so much. In the comment section, so many folks were like, oh, Alayna, lesbian doesn't exclude non binary, folks. There are plenty of non binary identifying lesbians, you know, I'm a lesbian, my partner's non binary, or my partner's a non binary, lesbian, all of these, like wonderful things. So now, I love it. But I still feel that little bit of concern. Because I have also heard from some non binary folks, non binary folks that lesbian does feel exclusionary to them. So I'm getting two different experiences
Hannah Witton
Both are true.
Alayna Joy
Right. So that's where I wouldn't say that I exclusively identify as a lesbian. The importance for me, and for a lot of folks that I've learned from the comments, in like, reclaiming this word lesbian is, it's not a dirty word. Right? And I think a lot of the time the word lesbian because of heteronormativity, because of the patriarchy, because of porn. The word
Hannah Witton
I was going to say like lesbian has also kind of been co opted by the male gaze.
Alayna Joy
Exactly. It has this like sexual connotation that it absolutely should not have
Hannah Witton
Because it's like oh you're a lesbian, kiss in front of me.
Alayna Joy
Oh, my God
Hannah Witton
And you're like, no, not for you
Alayna Joy
And so I want to wear that label proudly, in order to reclaim it in that way. But I also identify with like, the queer, dyke, gay kind of more umbrella terms.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, dyke is another one that was like, hugely a slur for like a really long time. I guess it still is, and queer as well. I guess. Yeah. dyke's one they definitely hear a lot less. I was that one that you immediately identified with or also took you a bit of like, Oh,
Alayna Joy
Yeah, no same exact same exact experience. I think for the women loving women community, dyke is like the new kind of queer where we had to we all we all had to take queer back and now it feels pretty, pretty commonplace to use the word queer. I feel like dyke is the new queer. It feels powerful, dyke. Yeah. And also, I think because we're like taking it back, we're almost redefining it, in that dyke to me feels more inclusive or feels more fluid than lesbian, which is interesting. I don't know if anybody else would stand behind me on that. But like, for me personally, it still feels like a kind of fluid term. It feels more political. Almost.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no I can see that definitely, because it has been used as a slur for so long as well. Right, people, people had a lot of questions for you. We're gonna, we're gonna try and do as many of them as possible. But actually, I've got one more for you. Yeah. Do you still want to get married? Is that you even think about that? Is that just maybe you're like, not even on my horizon right now?
Alayna Joy
Yeah, so that's, uh, so? Oh, my God, it's I'm
Hannah Witton
Sorry, if you're about to have an existential crisis
Alayna Joy
No, it's such a good question. Because it's like. So earlier, when I said that, there's so many things I'm learning about my body that I thought my body worked in a certain way. There's also just so many things about like, day to day domestic life that I thought were one way. And yeah
Hannah Witton
Yeah because even, even if you're like a super progressive, liberal feminist couple, you know, if you're a man and a woman, you will accidentally fall into roles. I see it with me and my partner. And I have to, like, call out and like actually, like, shine a light on it being like, have you noticed that we're doing this?
Alayna Joy
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
And like actually go? Is this something that we choose to do?
Alayna Joy
Uh huh.
Hannah Witton
Like intentionally? Or is it something that we've fallen into? Because we're both like, I'm, I'm very feminine, and he's quite masculine. So we kind of like do automatically fall into that.
Alayna Joy
What a healthy conversation to be able to have?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we're great.
Alayna Joy
Look at you and your healthy, straight relationship. It's like, so I when I was when I was in a relationship with a man, like, I actively fought against any sort of domestic, like, gender role things, anything that could be read as I'm a straight woman, you know, performing.
Hannah Witton
And now you're like, somebody make me a housewife?
Alayna Joy
Yes, genuinley though! Like now I'm like, yes I do the cooking. Yes, I do the cleaning. Like that whole thing where like, now, all of that stuff feels warm and cosy and sweet when I picture it with a woman.
Hannah Witton
Wow. Right. Yeah.
Alayna Joy
And it's the same with getting married. Do I want to get married? I'm not sure, only because I'm not sure if I, if if like the institution of marriage is the right thing for me. Yeah. But the feeling is 100% different when I picture that hypothetical wedding with a woman, then it's like, also, it also kind of feels like a political act. Because it's like, yes, I'm going to queerify marriage. Yes, I'm going to marry a woman. I don't know, do I want to get married? I don't know. Is it a different feeling than it was before? Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Interesting. Yeah. That's so interesting, that even like changes how you perceive your domestic role as well. That's fascinating.
Alayna Joy
It has changed how I perceive everything.
Hannah Witton
I think and honestly, like, I think in watching how you've been online as well, like you can, like, it's clear that you are like, just looking at the world through a completely different lens, as well. In a beautiful, like, happy, like, joyous way.
Alayna Joy
I'm glad that comes across because I had definitely, I've never felt so myself.
Hannah Witton
Alive.
Alayna Joy
Yes, I feel alive. I feel like I yeah, there's no more voice in the back of my head trying to convince me that you know, that I'm happy.
Hannah Witton
This is kind of related to a question that somebody had. They said, Do you think you may be going through a baby gay phase of excitement and presenting extra gay?
Alayna Joy
Okay. 100% I'm going through a baby gay excitement, like I am. It's all I think about. It's all I think about. It's all I want to talk about. My friends are so sick of me. Like, I'm just so excited about being gay.
Hannah Witton
You're going through puberty.
Alayna Joy
I am pubescent teen at this point, like I'm giddy. In n terms of dressing. Am I presenting more gay? I think if I tried I could present a lot more gay than I do. So no, I don't think I'm I think that I'm just, I'm finding I'm finding a presentation that actually feels really comfortable for me because I now have removed the male gaze. I have no more worry about like,
Hannah Witton
Your like, actually, what does fit me?
Alayna Joy
Yeah, it's like, do I feel, do I feel confident? Instead of Do I look sexy?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Or do I look bisexual?
Alayna Joy
Right
Hannah Witton
Where, where it like before maybe trying to find that fine balance of like, I don't want people to think I'm straight. But I also don't want people to think I'm gay.
Alayna Joy
I always wanted people to think I was gay. Like, I was like, euphoric if somebody mistook me, for for a gay woman, or do you remember? Oh my god I've just remembered this. Okay, so looking back at that lesbian masterdoc, one of the questions on it was something along the lines of like, do you, what was your, do you feel euphoric or happy when you were mistaken as a gay couple with your female friends? And I was like, Oh, yeah, absolutely. Do you remember, that one time at Buffer festival when we were rooming together? And I showed up? Okay. This is like a whole story.
Hannah Witton
Was this when we swapped pyjamas?
Alayna Joy
Maybe? Probably. But we're going to their Buffer festival. I showed up at the hotel before you did. And I went to check us in. And there was somebody else there with me when I was when I was checking us in for our room. And the concierge person was like, Okay, do you? Oh, they were like, sorry, we put you in a single bedroom? Do you want us to move you to a double bedroom? And I was like, oh, it doesn't matter to me. But like, yeah, you can swap us to a double bedroom, or like two separate beds, but like, whatever. And I had asked you, you said you were fine either way. And I was like, whatever works, like no problem, single bed, double beds, or two separate beds doesn't matter. They put us in a room with two separate beds, which was great. But then later on, I was talking, having a conversation with this person who had been there beside me and had overheard this conversation. And I had said something about being bi and he was like, Oh, I thought you were gay. And I was like, No, no, me and my boyfriend. And he was like, Oh, you have a boyfriend. And I was like, Yeah, I have a boyfriend. And he was like, Oh, I thought, I thought you and Hannah.
Hannah Witton
Oh
Alayna Joy
No, why would you think that?
Hannah Witton
We're just best friends
Alayna Joy
Just gal pals, gal palling around? And he was like,
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting
Alayna Joy
He was like, well, you had said that you were fine with the with, you know, sharing a bed. I had assumed you guys were together. I've never felt so seen. Like, I remember being like, ecstatic in my head that this entire weekend. He had thought that I was gay.
Hannah Witton
I remember you telling me that at that weekend? Yeah. Because I remember you telling me that you were really happy about it.
Alayna Joy
Well, I think that I pushed that, I locked it up. Lock that away in the back of my brain.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. That's also an interesting one to be like, also, just assuming, assuming that two people who are going to be who are okay, showing a bed together, there must be sexual activity happening. I feel about that as well. I'm just like, people can share beds, like, why are we so weird about like intimacy
Alayna Joy
There can be platonic intimacy it exists.
Hannah Witton
Anyway,
Alayna Joy
oh, that's a fair point, too, because this was a dude. And, yeah, like we talked about, who knows.
Hannah Witton
Anyway. There's layers, there's layers to it. Absolutely. Somebody asked, Did you have an aha moment? Or was it a gradual thing?
Alayna Joy
Oh, so it was gradual, in that I kept having experiences that I couldn't explain away. But I just rationalised it or push it down or tried to ignore it. It was also gradual in the sense that these panics of Oh, I think I'm gay we're just increasing in frequency. Like it was like snowballing where it was like more and more often I was having these freak outs where I would need to talk myself down.
Hannah Witton
Would you do that with yourself or with your ex partner?
Alayna Joy
I'll do it with myself. We have that one conversation and then like five years ago, and then after that, it was like, no, I just I kept it all to my, to myself. And then I had an aha moment when, also a lot of the rationalisation that I had done was I had questions that I would ask myself. It would be, do you still love your partner? Yes, I still love my partner. Do you love the life that you're building with your partner? Yes, I love the life I'm building with my partner. So then I can't be gay. Because I am in this relationship with a man. And I love him. And I love our life. So I can't be gay. That would be how I would always talk myself down. And then one morning, it hit me that all of those things could be true, that I could genuinely love him as a person. And I could genuinely love the life that we had together and love this thing that we were building. And I could also be gay. Yeah. And that was that was where it was like, Oh, shit.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Alayna Joy
I, I have gotten this all wrong.
Hannah Witton
Somebody somebody actually said, when you came out to your ex partner, how did you start/go about that conversation?
Alayna Joy
Oh, it was not good. It was I, I hadn't even decided that I wanted to talk to him about it yet. But he immediately knew something was wrong. And wanted to
Hannah Witton
That's what happens when you've been with someone so long.
Alayna Joy
He picked up on it immediately. And so it came down to, am I going to try and lie about what I'm, what's going on? Or am I just going to say what I'm thinking? And I remember saying to him, like, I'm scared to say this thing because once I say it, I don't think I can unsay it. Like, I don't think I can take it back.
Hannah Witton
Pandora's Box
Alayna Joy
Mmhm. And yeah, basically, I had a panic attack. And told him and we, you know, we spent a while, like, a few days trying to figure out if this was like something that could still work or figure out this was now where I'm like, Am I making a huge mistake? But after, after that conversation, it all kind of went pretty quick of like, no, this is, this is true. We both know what's true. There's no easy way to do it. I know people are asking this, probably hoping for some sort of advice or some sort of like, how you soften the blow, or how do you do this? And like, the kindest way, and it's, it is what it is, right? It's not that it's a horrible thing. But it's, it's not an easy conversation.
Hannah Witton
But also, like you said it was, for you, it was days of talking about it. And it doesn't have to be this like, one conversation and like that is it. Like, even though, I guess once you voiced it, it became clear to you of like, Oh, this is what needs to happen. But, you know, this is someone that you've spent a lot of time with and you deeply care about. And that you like you said, there can't there absolutely can be and should be kindness there.
Alayna Joy
Oh, yeah. So that would be I guess that Yeah, the only thing to go into it is try to come from a place of, of kindness. And I'm lucky, I'm lucky I he was he's a wonderful person, he is like kind, and understanding, and compassionate. And so are conversations, as painful as they were, they were always kind. We were always kind to one another. And yeah, it was many conversations, not just one.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, kind of related to this. Somebody asked what helps you with guilt, if you did feel any/anxiety of calling off the wedding. So I guess that's kind of like a more of a bigger picture. Because then it's not just about your relationship with that person. But then it like involves family and expectations from other people.
Alayna Joy
That's interesting, because I felt guilt around ending my relationship, because I love this person, and I don't want to hurt this person. And I love this person's family, and I don't want to hurt his family. You know, I don't want to hurt anybody. So that's where the guilt came in. In terms of ending the wedding, I just felt relief.
Hannah Witton
Like, yeah, it's just like that secondary.
Alayna Joy
Because I, I had so much panic about it. And I didn't know why. I would try to work out in my head why this idea of getting married was sending me into such a panic. And again, we would sit down and have conversations about it. And I kept saying to him, red flag, red flag, red flag. I kept saying to him that I didn't know I couldn't put it into words, but it just felt like I was saying goodbye to a part of my queer identity. Even though I knew that wasn't true because marrying a men doesn't make you any less bi. But I was like, but I just can't. I feel like I'm, I'm, you know, giving up something or I feel like I'm stepping away from something important to me. Which is not how you should feel if you're gonna get, if you're, you know about to get married.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Alayna Joy
And so I guess for me ending calling off the wedding, there wasn't a lot of guilt or shame around that because I was just like, it felt like a weight off.
Hannah Witton
No, that makes sense. Um, you've addressed this before, but I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Do you? Someone asked, were you nervous coming out as gay because of bisexual erasure?
Alayna Joy
Oh, my God, like, that's the next. That's the next layer of guilt and shame was like, okay, so I have this, I'm afraid, you know, to hurt these people that I love. And, and now I'm afraid to hurt my audience. I'm afraid that I have now become a negative bi stereotype I have now done the things that bi folks have to fight so hard against to not just have everybody in the world believe about them. This idea that bi folks can't be monogamous, that you're going to pick a side eventually, then you, you know, you're actually just gay or you're actually just straight, blah, blah, blah. It's just a phase. All these things that are absolutely not true.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Alayna Joy
It was just, that's my experience, you know. And so I try to make it very clear, in any of the videos that I make about this, or whenever I talk about it, that bisexuality is real and valid. And I know many queer folks that are just as queer as me, you know, now that I identify as gay doesn't mean that I'm any more queer than than I was before, doesn't mean that I'm any more queer than any bi, or pan, or other queer folks.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and we have to remember that it's not an experience like yours, If other people have had similar experiences. It's not those real experiences that people have that contribute to bi erasure. It's homophobia, it's biphobia, it's it's patriarchy, it's sexism. Like, those are the things that are contributing to biphobia, not some people who are trying to navigate their sexuality and come to different conclusions at different times. Like, that is not the cause of biphobia.
Alayna Joy
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
And bi erasure.
Alayna Joy
I think that the fear was just that there's going to be somebody who's going to watch my videos or see my experience and take it as proof of these negative stereotypes.
Hannah Witton
Some people will, unfortunately, I think, but, but it's not. It's not your fault. Basically, they already have those ideas. So they're already looking for what they're already looking for those ideas to be confirmed. Do you know what I mean?
Alayna Joy
So all I'm trying to do is like, okay, yes, now I'm a gay woman. I'm a part of that lesbian community, I'm just going to do everything that I can to make sure that that community cuts out this bi erasure, biphobia. Because Yeah, it still exists, which is so frustrating.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Somebody asked to do you still feel proud of your previous bisexuality? Even though it's not your orientation anymore? Whoa,
Alayna Joy
Ooo, that's a good question.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Alayna Joy
This is how I had to figure it out. I couldn't have done it any other way. You know, I, I genuinely thought that I was bisexual, I genuinely thought that and that label and that community gave me so much. Like the bi, the bi community that I found online, and just through creating this content about being a woman, a by woman in a relationship with a man was so affirming. And so like, connecting, you know, the, whatever the opposite of isolation is, and so I'm absolutely still proud of those experiences in that time. And like, all of those people, and when I re-came out and made these other videos, that same support that same love, was there in the comments.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Alayna Joy
From those same bi people, you know, yeah. I saw the sentiment of, we're sad to lose, quote, unquote loose you as a fellow bi. But like, you know, the love and support is still there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you know, I, I learned something recently. So you know, how a lot of people use like the Kinsey scale of sexual orientation so I can ever remember which way around it is, but let's say like, zero is 100% heterosexual, and then six is 100%, homosexual, and then you've got 12345, which are varying degrees of bisexuality. And what Kinsey found is like in the 1950s, it's been critiqued a lot, obviously, is that most people like their are people who genuinely like 100 on a zero and on a six, but the majority people sit somewhere in the middle. But one thing that I didn't know about the Kinsey scale is that its original function was for only a five year period in a person's life. So it's not meant to be a I'm a three, I'm a Kinsey three, that is it for your entire life. And that is your identity. It's like, it gives you a sense of some, of a period of somebody's life. Yeah, but often, people do change. Some people don't change. Some people are just like this, my orientation, and this is there for my entire life. And for other people, like you ask somebody what their sexuality is when they're 15. You asked when they were 25. You ask them when they're 35/45. It might change.
Alayna Joy
Oh, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
It might, It might be the same for 50 years.
Alayna Joy
Uh huh.
Hannah Witton
And then when they're 60 they just go, I'm gay.
Alayna Joy
Somebody who changes all the things you thought you knew?
Hannah Witton
Yes. And that was really interesting to me that I was just like, Oh, this thing that we use, that we like, regularly, kind of like still reference and talk about, actually, its original intention was to only represent five years of somebody's life.
Alayna Joy
It's only a window.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Alayna Joy
It only represents a window of time,
Hannah Witton
Like, even built into it is, like, sexual fluidity.
Alayna Joy
Well, ah ha, the whole Kinsey operation was all about sexual fluidity. Yeah, no, I didn't know. I didn't know that either. But it's interesting that you say that because even with Yeah, you know, I would use the Kinsey scale in conversation constantly. And my number, like continued to just shift
Alayna Joy
Yep, just creeped over from, originally I said I was right in the middle and then I would just like creep gayer and gayer.
Hannah Witton
Just creeped
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that. Well. And Alayna, thank you so much for chatting with me, sharing your experience
Alayna Joy
Anytime.
Hannah Witton
It's been an absolute pleasure. Any final words of wisdom for people, figuring things out, in lockdown, in quarantine
Alayna Joy
Oh my God, it's not easy. It's really not easy. And I know I'm speaking on all this with a certain lightness and like laughing and everything. But I also want to recognise how fucking hard it can be. Because it's not just you, coming out is not an isolated experience. It's got to start with coming out to yourself. But then beyond that, you know, there's just so much there's so many other factors and it's hard. That being said, you can be gay if you want to. Simple as that if you you can be gay if you want to, you can be bi if you want to, you can be straight if you want to. Like you, the important thing is that you are living the life that's authentic to you. And when you're really doing that, I can speak from my own experience, you feel it and it doesn't matter what other people say, it doesn't matter. Because you are doing the things that that are right for you and that make you feel fulfilled and alive. And I feel fulfilled and I feel alive. And that feels incredible.
Hannah Witton
For a great note to end on. Where can people find you online? Where can people see you're gay videos?
Alayna Joy
My name is Alana joy, A L A Y N A Joy. So you can search that anywhere. My handles on all social media, except YouTube, are Miss Fenderr with two R's. So mainly YouTube, Instagram, and hey, if you're if you want some gay TikTok head on over to TikTok
Hannah Witton
Oh, that'd be that's another, quick, quick before we end like how integral was TikTok to you realising that you're gay?
Alayna Joy
Like it was, unironically, a huge part of my realisation was gay TikTok, it really changed everything.
Hannah Witton
You know, doing the Lord's work. TikTok
Alayna Joy
It really is. If you're questioning, I would recommend heading over to TikTok. That algorithm will call you out in 2.5 seconds.
Hannah Witton
It will figure you out.
Alayna Joy
Mmhmm.
Hannah Witton
So it's like the ultimate like, Am I gay quiz? Just go on TikTok, it'll tell you.
Alayna Joy
Honestly, if you're on TikTok, and suddenly your for you page is just full of women loving women and witches. I hate to tell you, but you are gay now.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Thank you Alayna, so much. And thank you all for listening. Bye!
Alayna Joy
Bye
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast.