FemTech, Menstrual Health and Capitalism with Laura Shipp | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi, everyone, welcome back to Doing It. I can't wait to share this episode with you as it's one of those topics where I have a lot of conflicting feelings and thoughts. My guest today is Laura Shipp, who is a doctoral researcher in cybersecurity and FemTech. The FemTech industry is something many of us, including myself, use products from on a monthly, weekly, if not daily basis. It includes software, products, apps, services that use technology to support the health of cis women, vulva owners, and those assigned female at birth, aka women's health, as they call it. It covers periods, pregnancy, fertility, contraception, menopause, pelvic health, sexual wellness, and general health care.
As Laura and I get into this episode, this is potentially a really good thing as FemTech is addressing areas of health that have been ignored for years by research, but what does it mean to have private companies providing our healthcare and owning sensitive data about our bodies? A quick Google tells me that the FinTech industry is estimated to have a market potential of $50 billion by 2025. In this episode, we talk about the FemTech industry, capitalism and healthcare, our thoughts on period tracking apps, what it means for our privacy and data when it comes to sensitive information, gender inclusivity with some of these apps and services, and who ultimately has access to them, and who is being left behind.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes. It is really appreciated.
And without further ado, here is the wonderful Laura Shipp. Hi, Laura, welcome to Doing It. How are you doing?
Laura Shipp
I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for having me on here.
Hannah Witton
I'm so excited to to, like, get into nerding out about this kind of stuff and kind of going down I guess more of a like techie side of things that we don't always like cover here. But I thought first off, can you tell us a bit about your research?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, of course. So, yeah, I do a PhD on period tracking apps. And that's kind of looking at the technical side of things. So how they're working, how well do they protect people's information, and kind of comparing each app to one another, but also really looking at the industry that has kind of brought them about in the first place. And also people's uses of them? Like how, how are they using them? How do they feel about them? All of those kind of things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so what is, I guess, the bigger picture of this industry that has brought about these apps? Because we're definitely gonna, like, get into that.
Laura Shipp
So yeah, this industry, I would call FemTech. This is kind of like a term that you're hearing kind of more and more now, but I had never heard until I sort of, I guess, like stumbled on apps in the first place. So yeah, FemTech is kind of anything that kind of has the like, general aim of improving or maintaining women's health and wellness. And maybe it's like, important to note here that it's, yeah, it's often women that that kind of gets used as the focus for FemTech.
Hannah Witton
And it's called FemTech as well.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, exactly. I mean, enough said, isn't it? Yeah. And there are some debates about that industry, I think, as well, about like who is FemTech for? And who is it kind of is it leaving out? I guess, at the moment.
Hannah Witton
So I assume that the people who FemTech is for, or at least it's established that it's for, is like, cis women?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, I think that's the kind of general idea. And I think it's one of those things where that might not be, you know, like a deliberate intention. But I think it shows quite a lot about who is kind of generating FemTech products, since for a lot of the time is kind of, like white women that already have some kind of, I guess, like, I don't know how to describe it, like almost like social capital of various kinds.
Hannah Witton
Access.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because if you think about the world of FemTech as being like, a lot of apps, it's expensive to make an app and like run a company, like you need, like you said, you need capital, like, money, but you also need like the social capital of like the connections to people who can help you get this stuff kind of made. And I think one of the first time we met I remember you saying something about this kind of like individualised not obsession, but focus on the founders of a lot of these companies. It feels very girl boss sometimes.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so much of it is around kind of centring the story of the founder in the products. So it's often things like someone kind of talking about their fertility journey, or their difficult periods, or talking about like breastfeeding their children and finding it so hard to do that on the move and things like that. And that's always such a key part of kind of like selling the product and justifying why it exists. Because so much of FemTech kind of talks about the ways it's trying to fill a gap that's left behind by lots of other kind of systems, whether that's healthcare or just the lack of research on things. Like, I think endometriosis is something we hear kind of a classic example of that, just like how long it takes to get diagnosed, how little research, and how kind of, I guess how little understanding there is of it as a condition. And I think that's kind of like demonstrated in FemTech. So like, all the different parts of the system kind of come together.
And they, I guess, kind of repackage that as saying, like, "Here's the hole, here's the issue. And we'll fill it with this particular product that we've designed that will allow you now to track, you know, x, y, and z. And so you can live a kind of healthier and better life." And so much of it is kind of saying like, "So my experience as someone who has endometriosis is this, and this is how this product that I've designed kind of solves that problem for me, and it will solve it for you too." So yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so interesting thinking of it that way of like, they're trying to solve a problem and what we've actually done is we've kind of like, outsourced our healthcare to private companies. And there is a gap because there's like this, a lot of talk, maybe fuelled by a lot of these, the, like these companies and FemTech, about how research and understanding around women's health is really lacking. Like you mentioned about the length of time it can often take for someone to get diagnosed with endometriosis, a lot of the dismissal of people's pain, if there is this woman or person with a vulva. And so yeah, it does feel like they're kind of like filling in this gap. But I guess my question is are like, things like the NHS and like actual like systems of healthcare - are they trying to like catch up with this? Or are they kind of like, oh, right. The private sector is has got this down now? Like, what's the relationship between the two?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, I think it's a really complicated one. I think. I mean, I guess I don't know too much about the NHS, but it seems from the outside that there's like not necessarily an understanding that a lot of this technology exists. So, for example, I've been doing this research for four years now. And in that time, I've never seen a period tracking app or fertility tracker on their kind of - they have a designated kind of app library of, of apps that they've kind of tested to make sure that -
Hannah Witton
They have a kegels app.
Laura Shipp
Oh really, I haven't seen that. Oh, so yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's FemTech. The NHS has a kegels app.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. Oh, so interesting. So yeah, but so from there's like millions of people that are tracking their period every day and not one of - like, not a single app is kind of in that app library. There are no apps that kind of are NHS accredited and you can go to and say like, oh, this is this is an OK app for me to use if I wanted to do this. For the most part, yeah, as I said, it just seems like that, that maybe it's not really consideration. But I think that's kind of a big problem. Because in the end, you only get these products that often do come with a big price tag. Or even if they're not a big price tag, even if it's you know, £10 to £15, in this country, if you have to pay for kind of any part of your, your healthcare, it feels kind of... I dunno.
Hannah Witton
Weird.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, and especially given that more and more of, you know, through the pandemic so much more of our health care is delivered through kind of our phones and our laptops and stuff and our devices, it is kind of strange to think that there isn't that kind of connection there. But I know that other places around the world, more and more of them are starting to - like healthcare providers are starting to kind of integrate more FemTech products into their kind of healthcare provision. I know for kind of a while insurance providers wouldn't kind of cover any of these products. But yeah, in the US. Yeah. But again, I don't think any of them are covered on Medicaid, which I guess is the, as far as I understand the US healthcare system it's the insurance if you can't get insurance. So it's quite telling, I guess, that there's still kind of disparities in who FemTech is reaching. And yeah, I think there's definitely questions about who should be providing this, this kind of stuff in the first place. Like, should we have a kind of NHS period tracker or an NHS fertility tracker that isn't kind of associated with a company is something that is I'd be interested to see if it could kind of happen.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I wonder if that would ever happen. Yeah. So I'd love to hear from you: what are some of the good things about FemTech? Like, what do you think is really cool and really exciting? And then we can get on to the things to be wary about.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah, I think there's loads to love about FemTech. I think for one, it's just, I guess, the first real industry that is really paying attention to a lot of these issues that have been just neglected for a really, really long time. Whether that is kind of period care and providing something that's different to you know, like tampons and pads to really paying attention to some of the conditions. Like, I guess a lot of my time is spent focused on period things. So I was thinking about, like, there's now like, specific services for people with endometriosis, with PMDD. And those kinds of things. And yeah, just, I guess, it's one of the first places where you're seeing a lot of female founders.
Hannah Witton
But I'm assuming most of them also are cis women, and would like, identify as female as well. Yeah, yeah.
Laura Shipp
Massively, yeah. And loads of them come from the tech space as well, which I find super interesting. So a lot of them, and this isn't all of them by any means, but have that kind of Silicon Valley CV. So, for example, there's a company called Kegg in the US and their founder used to work for eBay and then has gone through this process of trying to get pregnant. And it was like going through that and kind of I think it was like two or three years of like, infertility. And that was like, the reason that she kind of re researched into like, fertility awareness methods and got interested in what that product is all about, kind of monitoring cervical fluid. Using that as like a as a indicator for like a health check. They call it like the sixth vital sign, I think.
So, yeah, so I think, just like focus on and like generating products for these, like, quite kind of unloved parts of women's health. Think is really positive. And yeah, and so much more kind of inclusive branding, and kind of, I guess, they really try and think about a lot of the things that a lot of us are trying to kind of take on board on a day to day level in terms of some - a lot of them can be really trans inclusive, deliberately kind of trying to be anti racist in a lot of their marketing and branding. But yeah, we can kind of go into how deep that goes, I guess.
Hannah Witton
I mean, I definitely wanted to talk about the branding element of things. Because, I mean, this is something that I see across the board, like in terms of FemTech. And then also like sexual wellness, and like how all of these very, like femme, sex positive, period, positive, body positive kind of companies, I swear, I could like, get like a dozen of these different companies, and the branding, like the colours and the fonts and the style that they use on their websites, is just so similar. It's, I'm like, I understand why, from a marketing perspective, you're like, "Oh, this is the style, this is the kind of like, brand look that resonates with the kind of people that we want to sell our product to," or whatever it is. So I get it from a marketing perspective. But as a user, you know, like on the other end of it, I'm just like, come on, this is boring. But also I'm like, ooh, they have that font, or they have those colours. That means that they share my values.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah. And so many of them do that as well. This is just this kind of like base level like, we'll tell them kind of - what tell our audience what they think they want to hear so that they know that this is the kind of brand that they want to be buying their products from. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I wonder like how much of it is a trend as well. Like in like five to 10 years time are we going to see like different kind of like popular styles and messaging and things like that?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, I know. I always see the one that always gets me is vulvas that are shaped like fruit. I see so many.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I literally have a piece of art of like a vulva peach. Like I can see it right there. I love it.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah, definitely. If you can get away with a vulva in your office and you feel like that's like, the way to do it. Yeah, but I felt I felt like like every Instagram post that I see from like, on so many of my feeds, it's just like, a peach or an orange or, like chilis or something that looks like a vulva. And yeah, and I think I think this is a quite a deliberate, deliberate strategy of companies, you know, and a lot of sexual sexual wellness companies kind of fit under the FemTech umbrella. So, yeah, from what I've read, and from what I understand, that this is like yes, thanks, something that is very specific kind of strategy. So they call it femvertising.
Hannah Witton
Oooh.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. So targeting particularly millennials with imagery and like really value based marketing, because that, I guess they know that a lot of millennials, myself included, are like, quite into buying from, like brands and industries that we feel like kind of, you know, are living up to the things that we try and do on a day to day level.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so they need a feminist mission statement.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. And so many of them literally do have them. Use those kind of words like mission statement, or like empowerment, it literally has a language. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
I guess one of the things that this makes me think about is like, how much can we be cynical and kind of like, question this and interrogate it? And like, how much should we be celebrating that feminist values have money behind them, have mainstream audiences? Like, where - where is this line? Because on the one hand, like, this is actually really good that feminist values are like, I guess popular enough that companies feel like they have to adopt them in order to make money and in a capitalist society, like money rules all. There you go, that was me trying to celebrate it. And then I immediately went cynical.
Laura Shipp
I know, I think that was the hardest part. Like, I feel the same. I literally, I think it's really hard to balance that. But it seems like maybe those feminist values can sometimes only go so far, or only take us so far, if at the end of the day that the idea is that you're selling a product, if you're always kind of at the end of it trying to make money from that. I think particularly with health because yeah, for me, I feel like health - should health be something that we make money from or should that money should be made from?
Hannah Witton
I mean, I say is if you look at like the US, and Big Pharma, and everything, it is something that people have made money off and make like stupid amounts of money off. But is that ethical?
Laura Shipp
Yes, cuz then. Yeah, I guess, I guess with all of those things, that there's the kind of question of who is who's getting left behind by that? Who's not included in those kind of feminist slogans? And, yeah, I definitely see with a lot of a lot of companies that so much of the branding and the imagery can really be focused around again, white women, you know, in this kind of selling this very clean version of menstruation or sex, and yeah, I feel like just a lot of kind of gets left out of those of feminist messages. If that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for sure. And like, especially if it's about sex, or fertility or anything, it's very much like your cis straight white middle class woman. Like, I feel very represented.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. It's got me down.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. It's nailed me down. But I am but one, white woman. So I guess one of the questions that comes up a lot when it comes to things like period, menstrual tracking apps, is the data and privacy elements. And the question of, should I even care about what these companies may or may not be doing with my data? Like, how does it affect me and my day to day life? And like, will I actually feel any of those consequences?
Laura Shipp
I think that's such a good question. Because I think a lot of the time, almost like the biggest and the hardest part of it is the fact that it doesn't necessarily change our day to day life in ways that we can perceive. But it's kind of often changing the structures, or impacting the structures, that kind of shape our life, I guess. So I guess the example I think about with with these apps, is the fact that a lot of them are kind of generating these massive datasets around periods and health and sort of, say, vaginas generally like, I guess, like, that's fine that that's, that's really good. We have kind of limited amounts of data on these areas, and especially in terms of large numbers.
But the ways that those kind of datasets get used can be both kind of generating further money for the companies that are kind of doing this work in the first place. It could be kind of - so one of the apps, Glow, have kind of a parent company, which has a big data lab, and all of that data is being fed into into their big data lab. And, again, it's really unclear like how that might kind of, I guess, feed back down into the ways that kind of algorithms get produced or new products get brought out and things like that. And also, if this data kind of ends up shaping health and healthcare, from what it seems like a lot of the people that use FemTech and use fertility tracking apps or kind of period tracking apps more generally, it's not kind of an even spread across society, it can often be white middle class, highly educated women. So if we're getting datasets that are based just on those groups, then how is that going - and that's kind of then, you know, shaping where research is going, where new products and kind of like drugs or all kinds of other other things come out?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess it like further marginalises people who are already marginalised in terms of health care, and access to all of those kinds of things.
Laura Shipp
Totally. And further erases from that system at all.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because they're not represented in the dataset.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, definitely. And this also really ended up - well, this didn't end up being kind of a focus of my research but it came up time and again, where people - there were just groups of people that felt that their experience, and their version of periods wasn't or couldn't be included within the apps. So you think like, people even might go on to an app and try it and then find that, you know, it just doesn't, it can't handle their body.
Hannah Witton
Their unique body.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah, and then and then that's another person whose data isn't in those studies, isn't being reflected in those new products and things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz I guess a lot of them. just rely on everyone being a bit average.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. Definitely. And there's some that are like based on like, no science whatsoever.
Hannah Witton
No, exactly. That's super interesting, because it actually brings me on to one of the questions that we got on Instagram, which I very much related to. Somebody said, it wasn't really a question, it was more of a statement, but I understand it: cycle tracking apps that take into consideration birth control and no period. Because this was me for so long, I was on birth control, and I was not having any periods because of it, but I could still feel my cycle happening, like, because of other symptoms. But there was no way to like input the beginning of a new cycle without saying that you had your period. And that's just one thing. And I'm sure there's, like so many others, when it comes to like, the different ways that our bodies experience the menstrual cycle, that these apps just aren't equipped to deal with.
Laura Shipp
To deal with at all. Yeah. Yeah, totally. That was exactly that was my experience, too. And that came up so many times where people were just like, "I've used it for a bit, but yeah, it just couldn't handle. Couldn't handle my pill or couldn't handle my whatever."
Hannah Witton
Which seems so strange to me.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. Because you still would like to have some kind of - as you say, you still have cycles, even if you know, if you're not bleeding or if you're not, if your bleed is kind of regulated. You're having withdrawal bleed, like all of that stuff still. Because people just use it as a way to keep a record of things. It doesn't necessarily need to be about predictions, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Somebody else asked: what direction do you expect FemTech to go in in the next few years?
Laura Shipp
Ooh, yes, good question.
Hannah Witton
Let's predict the future.
Laura Shipp
Yes. I think definitely menopause is becoming a bit more of like a buzzword and perimenopause. Like definitely seeing more products kind of come out for that area. I know that fertility in particular is like really oversaturated. So people are trying to move away, or rather, fertility that is aimed for people with female reproductive systems. So there are more FemTech companies coming out that - there's one called Progeny, for example, I think in the US - that are focused on like male at home fertility tests. And things like that. Or there's like -
Hannah Witton
That'd be nice, being able to do a bit of a sperm test like in private instead having to go and have a wank in a random clinic.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, most pressurised wank ever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah. So there's those which is, this is what I mean. It's like so many like, "Oh, it's good, but it's bad, is it good. I don't know." And like at home IVF kits are becoming a thing as well.
Hannah Witton
Wow. I knew that you could do like IUI stuff potentially at home. Like the insemination?
Laura Shipp
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that that's the one I think. okay. I remember them saying it wasn't like a turkey baster, that's what I remember from that. I watched the presentation, that's all I can remember.. Yeah, so anyway, menopause, maybe male fertility. And also I think things that are kind of - so FemTech is like branching out as well. So the start it was mostly like, fertility and menstruation are the kind of two big things like things that have I guess - specific, that are specific, I guess, to a female reproductive system in some way. Whereas now we're trying to think about the things that impact women disproportionately. So things like migraines, for example, is something that mostly women get, but it's kind of - yeah, there's not necessarily a lot of research about why that happens.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, maybe there'll start being ones for like autoimmune disease as well, because I think women are more likely to have autoimmune diseases, I think.
Laura Shipp
Oh, interesting, yeah, that's, yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that'd be interesting. Because as someone with an autoimmune disease, I'm like, "Oh, interesting. Okay, cool." This question got me thinking. Someone asked: your thoughts on OvuSense's vagina BBT thermometer? So BBT is basal body temperature. OvuSense, I'd never heard of them before. But I'd heard of another company that also are developing or have developed like a Bluetooth thermometer that you basically like, keep in your vagina overnight or something. So then it takes your temperature and just immediately puts it in their app for if you're like, if you are tracking your temperature and kind of doing those things. What are your thoughts on that?
Laura Shipp
Yes, I don't know. I think I can see the appeal of them. In terms of like, if you're on that journey, and you're trying to just work out what's going on, I can see the appeal of thinking this device might be the one that can tell me then what's going on, because it's me all the time, it is monitoring me, I'm going to be able to understand those changes better. But I think a lot of this technology - and this is like a really good example of that - can be a bit more is more and particularly more data is more.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's a company out there who knows the temperature of your vagina?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's a weird thought in itself, isn't it, when you think about it. But I also think about like, how is that going to impact you psychologically, just to know that you're being kind of monitored all the time without - and even, and kind of that's taking the company, the company's use of that data aside? Like, how would you feel to know that any time of the day, you can just open your phone and check your temperature? I don't know how that would kind of - yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, are you supposed to keep those things in all of the time? I thought it was just at night. So then it takes your temperature, like in the morning?
Laura Shipp
Oh, right.
Hannah Witton
Oh, maybe not - maybe - because how would it know when you wake up? Is it just in you all the time? Oh my god.
Laura Shipp
I think one of them you're supposed to kind of keep in? It's like a ring, and you're supposed to keep it in you the time, I think. That's what I understand anyway.
Hannah Witton
That does sound familiar. And now - yeah, that is wild, actually. Because you've kind of like, yeah, you're just implanting a device inside your vagina to track you all the time. And it's the fact that it's like connected by Bluetooth to your phone. Like, maybe I'm being a scared granny about technology now but I'm like, oh no!
Laura Shipp
Yeah, no, it's really good, it's a really good question. Because there's been like, so for example, with some of the Bluetooth enabled sex toys, if someone - or the app-enabled sex toys - there's questions about, you know, if someone if someone hacks into that, and it's not your partner who's controlling it, but it's in you, and it's impacting the way that you're kind of, I guess, sensing something that you thought was your partner through this technology, like, does that count as assault in some ways? And I think all of those things, like if you can - if something in your body can be hacked, like how does that? I don't know. It's just some random, random thoughts.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it kind of gets real existential.
Laura Shipp
Really quickly!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's an interesting thought process to have. And I guess we don't really have answers.
Laura Shipp
No, I don't think so. But I think with some of those technologies just have to be really careful about about what - I guess you have to know yourself whether you're someone that's quite like anxiety prone, or is maybe in a particularly bad place in your feeling about your health, but that can be a really kind of damaging way of of just, I guess, like, yeah, having something that you can always check, which actually can reinforce your anxiety around what's happening and make you kind of hyperaware, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a good point. Somebody asked - I'd be interested to know if an answer to this: what's the most egregious example of algorithm or datacoding misogyny that you've encountered? And I guess like misogyny or like homophobia or cissexism, transphobia, as well, because like, the coding and the algorithm could potentially be all of these things.
Laura Shipp
Yes. Oh, my gosh, I'm like, going through my mind to try and think of an example. Or what, the one that's really stuck with me. I don't - I don't know if I have a particular example. I think maybe the thing that freaks me out the most is how insidious it can be. So I'm reading a book at the moment called Race After Technology. And yeah, there's so many examples in that, which are kind of the ways that, I guess - not even just the way that bias and racial bias particularly can be embedded in the systems, but the ways that like the system, or the the ways that technology is being used now, can like reinforce it and make it worse, but make it harder to point out in the first place because of this, kind of, because so much of technology kind of acts or the people that sell it can act as if it's objective, often gets like kind of, you know, sold to us as objective.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we often like, our trust in tech as if, oh, well, that's technology. It's not human. So it can't be biased. It must be objective.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, exactly. And actually, that becomes a way of like, not, I guess, like not identifying - not being able to name the racism or the homophobia or the transphobia at all, because that's almost like the cut off. You're cut off from that in first place. I think that's like freaking me out at the moment a little bit.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, let's list all the things to get freaked out about.
Laura Shipp
The list is long.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Okay. Somebody asked: how do you see datasets being more inclusive to genders outside of the binary? And we kind of talked about this a bit. But I have like, an additional question on top of like this discussion about, like, the FemTech world and like, the data that's collecting being more gender inclusive, which is that things like sexual orientation and trans status are like protected characteristics in the UK. And like, whilst it's a good thing that we want, like, these apps and services to be more gender inclusive, how do we feel about them having a list of like, these are all the trans people, because, you know, we still live in a really like a homophobic and transphobic world. And so that was one of the things that it got me thinking of like, yes, we want them to be more gender inclusive, but also, how do we feel about them having like data about your gender?
Laura Shipp
Yeah. Especially because you have to then trust that company to do something that you agree with?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Laura Shipp
To begin with. Yeah, I think more of them are trying to be more inclusive, particularly around gender and not assuming that everyone's in a heterosexual relationship, if they are using the app or trying for a baby or anything, any of those kinds of things. But yeah, I think you're so right. Like, I think, actually, can we necessarily trust the motives often of the companies kind of producing these apps? Or can we trust them with that information? Because often, the way that you agree to these things in the first place can be very, you know, rudimentary, or be this very long agreement that you just have to, you know, agree to -
Hannah Witton
And you just click agree when you download it, and it's like, you never think about it again.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, definitely. And particularly like how that data might be used in, as I said, like research or anything like that. Whereas in any other kind of context, particularly within kind of, like a research context, you would always have to fill out a consent form or, you know, like, the research that they're doing would go through an ethical review board, you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And in healthcare, it's all about like, informed consent. Like they explain to you like, this is what we're going to do, and like, this is the procedure and these are the risks associated with it, and then you will, like have to then give informed consent.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, exactly. But it is to say, if you're, if you are trans and you're using an app, and potentially that is going to - the fact that you're trans is going to be buried away somewhere and potentially used in some kind of something, you'll never know what, in the future, actually could that be - that can never be something that you can actively consent to. And maybe that's part of the problem with a lot of these things in the way that data gets used is the fact that you don't know all of the future uses the data might have as well. And because you can't understand how it's being used at all, or what the value of the fact that you clicked an app at a particular time is to a company, you can never really get what the potential impact could be, if that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess also, with the flip side of it as well, is that we do need more research into gender and like more representation of trans people, like in research, as well. So yeah, it's like, a lot of these companies do use their data for research purposes. And so it would be good to have like a diverse range of participants like in research, but -
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah, I remember I think I went to an event which had someone from Clue there and they talked about a recent survey they did on - I think it was on contraception and new forms of contraception. And they got like these huge numbers of people to fill out a survey. So they got this, yeah, just amazing dataset on what people actually felt about contraception, which literally would not have been possible without the app and without the communities that they have. So it's very like, is it good? Is it bad? I don't know. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I guess it's just about keeping an eye on it, and just kind of like celebrating the good stuff. And then also like, remaining vigilant?
Laura Shipp
Yes, exactly. And accountability, where possible as well. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I guess that's one of the things that makes me feel a bit wary is because all of them, most of them are private companies. It's like, who are they actually accountable to? Like, are they accountable to their users? Are they accountable to their board and their shareholders? Like, where - where is that? Like, what is the relationship there?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, I think that's a really difficult one, because particularly in terms of privacy, laws like GDPR have meant that companies do have to be a lot more accountable to individuals. And there's been some kind of other laws in California to do with this as well, which really kind of put an onus on individuals and their rights, and I guess that has added some accountability. And the idea is that these governments can kind of tackle a company when they mistreat information. But in terms of - yeah, I think this question is about how accountable that actually makes companies because a lot of the times, it just is about kind of ticking boxes for compliance, or it's trying to interpret these laws that can - I mean, I think this is the case with a lot of laws that can be interpreted lots of different ways, or, I mean, just the ways that cookies get, you know, you see different cookies notices on browsers, like, all of those tend to be different.
Hannah Witton
Accept, accept, accept, like, that.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, and each company is like, interpreted that law in a different way. So yeah, accountability maybe not, not there in terms of users at the moment. And the other question with kind of accountability with in terms of law is the fact that laws like GDPR were never set up for dealing with data that's kind of intimate in any way. And that's not to say that kind of this data should be private, because it's shameful. But if people want to keep this, this thing about themselves private, I guess it has kind of higher stakes than other forms of data might have. So, you know, someone chooses to terminate a pregnancy and that's documented in the app, obviously. And the example you gave with, with, you know, potentially outing trans or having a list of trans individuals, like all of that data has quite a lot of weight attached to it. And high stakes.
Hannah Witton
And like inputting, like all your sexual activity and things.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah, in terms of accountability, in terms of how that data is used, and I guess, yeah, maybe that's, that's not there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I think this stuff is so interesting. But I would love to end on like, a positive note, I guess. In terms of like, what are some of your favourite FemTech companies that are like, doing some good stuff? Like have a good product, have good ethics? Like, at least at the moment, in terms of like, how best we can judge them.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah. I do have some, I do have some favourites. I think these are probably more products that I just use and like.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, fair enough. That's the thing, like, we can be critical, or we like but also like, we do benefit from them. And like, yeah, I use I use a bunch of these products and apps and services too.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I love ModiBodi. With a passion.
Hannah Witton
They're the period underwear, right? They do period underwear?
Laura Shipp
Yeah. And so - they're so good. Like, just all of the pants that I've used are amazing. And just big love for them. I really like the company Hanx as well.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I've not heard of them. Oh, wait, no, they did lube. Are they a lube company?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, I think they do lube now, yeah, but they do um, condoms as well. And they're all about like, changing the, I guess the condom world. So it's not just like male dominated, or like male focused, I guess. A lot of the time. So yeah, and they do - I just think this is like really sweet - they have like a, like a coming off the pill pack, which I just I thought was really cute.
Hannah Witton
And they're Hanx.
Laura Shipp
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then one more...
Hannah Witton
Fave period tracker app.
Laura Shipp
Ooh, I don't actually use a period tracker. So I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough.
Laura Shipp
But I really like Clue. I really like Clue. And I really like the two apps drip and -
Hannah Witton
Drip?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, it's really really good. Let me just it's on my phone so I can - oh, Read Your Body. We talked about this.
Hannah Witton
Oh yes, of course! I'm still using Read Your Body.
Laura Shipp
Oh, are you? That's cool.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I use Read Your Body and Clue Because apparently I have to have two period tracking apps.
Laura Shipp
I know, I was using for for a while. That's just so much - just a lot of work.
Hannah Witton
So what is drip?
Laura Shipp
So drip is an open source, inclusive period tracking app or fertility tracking app?.And yeah, it's just quite good because you can just record whatever you like, and but they don't store any of your data. And it's just a really cool feminist collective based in Germany.
Hannah Witton
Kind of similar to Read Your Body then?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah, really similar, kind of a lot of the ideas or the values are really similar. So but yeah, you can only get it on Android at the moment, which is the only problem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And speaking of like, just examples of companies as well, like, I've not tried this product at all. But there was a company that got in touch that I hadn't heard of before, I think called grip. And you saying drip reminded me of it because it sounded similar.
Laura Shipp
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And that like a fertility test thing or something. And so it's like doing a fertility test at home. You know, the way that like, you can now do like a lot of STI tests at home, which I think is really cool especially because at least in the UK, you can order them for free. So you're like doing them at home, but you're not having to like pay any extra for them. But for this, because it's fertility, obviously, there's a big price tag on it. But it's like one of those like pinprick blood tests. And then they send it off to their lab and they tell you information about your fertility and stuff. I've not tried it, but it exists. And it just got me thinking about that as well. But I remember seeing that it had a big price tag on it. And I was like, yeah. Like, yeah, I get it.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, cuz, yeah. If you if you're kind of thinking about these things, you want answers then...
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and it's cheaper than like going private. It's like somewhere in between like NHS and like, actually, like going to see a private doctor like fertility clinic. And then you've got like, FemTech in the middle.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, yeah. We like price tag, you don't have to wait ages. All of those kind of things..
Hannah Witton
The convenience.
Laura Shipp
Yeah, at home.
Hannah Witton
At home, all of that kind of stuff. Well, Laura, thank you so much. This has been so insightful. Where can people find you online?
Laura Shipp
Yeah, so I'm on Twitter, @shipplaura. And you can also find me on my university website. So yeah, that's if you look me up with Royal Holloway then you'll find all the things that I'm up to.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Lovely. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all so much for listening. Bye.