Sensuality, Coming Out as Non-Binary and Re-Evaluating Our Relationships with Ev'Yan Whitney | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Hi all, welcome back to Doing It. I hope that you are well. My guest this week is the incredible sexuality doula and sex educator of Ev'Yan Whitney. In this episode, we jump around so many interesting topics, including sensuality - what is it? How do you incorporate it into your sex life and life in general? Why do we often neglect our sensuality and of course, Ev'Yon's a new book, Sensual Self, which comes out later this year, and the relaunch of their podcast also called Sensual Self. As part of sensuality, we also talk about breath and working on the relationship that you have with your body. And I was really curious to talk with Ev'Yan about her experience of living apart together with her partner, and how to nourish individuality in a relationship. And we also talk about gender and Ev'Yan's experience of coming out as non binary and exploring their gender during lockdown. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes. It is really appreciated. And here is my conversation with the wonderful of Ev'Yan Whitney.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to the podcast, Ev'Yan. It's so great to have you on and chat with you.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, I'm so excited to be here. It took us a little while, but I'm so glad that it finally worked out.
Hannah Witton
We did it. And also I feel like I've just been like, silently following a lot of your work online for so long and so I was very excited that you agreed to do this interview and chat with me for the podcast. I think one of the great things about like having this podcast is just being like, "I want to talk to all of these cool people that I follow online."
Ev'Yan Whitney
I feel that as I also have a podcast. And so it really like opens the door to create more conversations in like deeper ways than just an Instagram DM. So I'm so glad that you reached out about it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, me too. So speaking of your podcast, actually, you just did a massive rebrand of it. I'd love to hear about I guess that story like, what was your podcast before? And like, what is it now? And kind of like, take us through a bit of your, like, I guess your personal and your work transformation?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
it's so much. It's a big question, actually, I just realised.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, no, it's, I mean, it really is a big - it really is a big thing. You know, I have been undergoing this change or wanting to do this change for a really long time. I would say at least within like the last three years, it's been something that's been calling on my heart. And it really all started to come to fruition because I came out as non binary in December of 2020. And I had known before then that I wanted to change the name of my podcast, which at the time was called the Sexually Liberated Woman. Many people know that podcast. It's been around since 2015, so.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I've been doing it for a minute. And I think that was one of the reasons why I was like, I don't know if I should change it because everyone is so used to the name and, and the message behind it. But um, yeah, I had been really - I'd been on my gender journey for a while. And I noticed that it was giving me some trepidation whenever I would talk about womanhood in relationship to me. So yeah, I made a really big decision to change the name of the podcast. I had to go through like, a few months of quiet and hiatus to figure out like, what is this podcast going to be? Do I even want to do a podcast? Because as you know, podcasting seems so fun and free and easy but it takes a lot of work and it costs money. And so yeah, I went through this, I went through this stage of trying to figure out like, okay, what is this going to be? What is like this new iteration of this podcast going to be? And how can I come to this new podcast from a place of including me within it, because for a couple of years, I didn't really feel like I was included in my work. Like, I felt like I was excluding myself. And so the new podcast is called Sensual self. And I say new, but it's like not really new. It's just like, I changed the name. Back episodes of the Sexually Liberated Woman still exists. So you can access those at any time but the new name is Sensual Self, which is also the name of my new book. So it works out like beautifully.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it really does. And congrats on the book, as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Thank you!
Hannah Witton
Honestly, like so many things that I want to talk about, but I guess like let's start with the Sensual Self. So you're a sex educator, you're a sexuality, doula, and a lot of what you talk about is sensuality. And when I hear that word, and like when I was seeing your book announcement and the podcast and the title, I was like, ooh, like, I think I really neglect sensuality.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
In my sex life, but also just in my life in general. It's not something that like, immediately screams to me of like, oh, yeah, I know that I do that and that is important to me. And I wondered if you could speak on like, is it being neglected in a lot of people's lives? Is that like something that comes up a lot? And why is it important for us to kind of tune in with our sensual selves? And what what does that even mean?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, I think the reason why there might be that disconnect, um, and that's something that I'm familiar with too, is that like, I don't think that we know what sensuality is. I've actually heard in my career as a sex, educator, sensuality and sexuality being used interchangeably. Like they're the same thing.
Hannah Witton
It's sometimes how I hear intimacy and sexuality, being used in the same, I'm, like, err. Some people are too scared to say the word sex, I think.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Exactly, I mean, actually, when I first started doing my work, there wasn't a lot of sex educators around in 2011. Like, there just there was so little conversation happening on the internet. And if it was, you had to be in this particular time in this particular event. It wasn't as widespread as it is now. And I remember, a lot of people were still really shy about saying the word sex or sexuality. And so they would call themselves sensuality experts, or I'm going to help you with your sensuality. So like, I think that there is a disconnect with sensuality. And like really taking it on as a practice and as, like, an embodiment because of that disconnect and because of that confusion, of what exactly is sensuality? Is it sexuality-lite, is it something else? And so, for me, the trajectory of my work has always included sensuality, because I've always been really fascinated by the body, pleasure. And not just within a sexual context, but within a context of like, self care, and having a relationship and close intimacy with yourself outside of a sexual nature. And so I have always been really fascinated by sensuality. Some of the first things that I ever spoke about was about sensuality, and really wanting to demystify that, and also define it on my own terms, because again, for me, at the time, I always thought that sensuality was something that you do to attract the gaze of somebody else, like we think of the sensual woman, the swishing of hips, the, like, you know, like low cleavage and stuff like that, which - and I've heard folks use sensuality in sort of like a descriptor of those things, this like performative aspect of -
Hannah Witton
Something that's pleasing to the senses, I guess, in that way.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Exactly. And for me, it was it was always like, you're not a sensual being on your own you're a sensual being if someone is like looking upon you, or gazing upon you, it's like you're -
Hannah Witton
Somebody else has to be interacting with or benefiting from or - in some way from whatever sensuality you may have.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, there's this aspect of consumption, you know, like your, you're a sensual being if you can be consumed by someone, like if if someone is able to gaze upon you and sort of take in that energy. And that always felt really weird to me, like, I wanted to think about, like, how would I define sensuality? And how do I want my sensuality to be interacted with, with myself first and foremost? And so as a way to kind of separate the two - because at the time, I mean, this was like, 2011, 2012, sexuality as a concept was still really like, kind of difficult for me. I was still trying to figure it out and sort it out, so I was like, okay, so let me like focus on the sensuality piece. Like sexuality, we're getting there. But like, let's focus on sensuality and like what that looks like in terms of the bare minimum, pleasing to the senses. The way that I like to think about sensuality is that sensuality is the process and the practice of listening with your senses. So it's about like, being fully awake and fully aware to the sensations that are coming up in your body. Not all pleasurable ones because we all know that like not every day is a cakewalk, but being really mindful and open to the information that your body is constantly sending you, and creating a relationship with your body where all of your senses are involved, all of your emotions are involved, and how that information and that connection can directly correlate to the relationship that you have within sex. Because I don't I don't think it's possible - I mean, I would love for someone to prove me wrong, but I don't think it's possible to have sex without sensuality being involved in it. Like to have really, really good sex and not have it have your senses. your whole body, the full participation of your senses involved in it
Hannah Witton
And tuning into those things as well, because it's all well and good you're feeling a sensation in certain parts of your body, but are you really paying attention to it?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right. Yeah, are you, are you present to it? You know, I think that one thing that I have experienced on my own is like sex tends to happen so fast. You know, there's all sorts of chemicals going on, hormones. I mean, there's lots of exchanges happening, bodies colliding together. And this process of sensuality is, for me, a practice of slowing down, and really taking time to nourish and like savour every aspect of a moment. And that can happen in sex, but I'm also practising that within my daily life as well. Like, how can I be fully awake and fully present to this moment that I'm in with you, even as I'm speaking to you, like, am I able to feel my legs on the chair? Am I able to feel the air of this room kissing my shoulders? Am I able to feel like the temperature of the light on my face as it's hitting me? Like, these are all like things that are really heightened, and involve you heightening and arousing your senses, but it just creates so much depth and so much richness to your experience when you're like, oh, wow, there's actually a lot of sensory information that is happening. What would it be like for me to open myself up to it and just like drink it all in?
Hannah Witton
And what's a good way for people to start like exploring that? Because also, when we think of like our senses, the dominant ones are like sight and touch. But how can people kind of access the other ones as well - so now I'm going to try and list them, this is like primary school. Hearing, and smell. What's the fifth one? Taste!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, yes.
Hannah Witton
There it is!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Hearing as well. So I would also add intuition in there. I mean, I think that there's a reason why intuition -
Hannah Witton
The sixth sense!
Ev'Yan Whitney
- yes, has been called a sixth sense. And so this is actually something I talk about a lot in my book, Sensual Self, like creating this practice of establishing a relationship with your body and your senses in a way that is doable, feasible, and also, like, simple but but powerful as well. Like, it doesn't have to be - like things don't always have to be like earth shattering in order for them to really work and for you to reap the benefits of them. And so a lot of the practices that I have in this book, invite you to explore and embody sensuality in really simple and doable ways that you can then like, continue to explore and deepen into on your own terms. And that's one of the reasons why I loved writing this book, because I really wanted - for a book called Sensual Self, for a book about sensuality, it would have been really easy for me to write a book that's like, okay, so we're going to talk about sensuality, and I want you to intellectualise it. Like I want you to think about what sensuality is, and I want you to understand it as a concept. But I -
Hannah Witton
Ooh, you just called me out, I just - I intellectualise everything.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I mean, I'm a Virgo stellium so it's very easy for me to be over analytical.
Hannah Witton
I think I'm a Virgo moon, so.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, there you go. There you go. Yeah, it's really easy for me to overanalyze things and be like, okay, so what is sensuality, let me think about it really hard in my brain, and then maybe that will create the experience, but I wanted -
Hannah Witton
Instead of just like experiencing it and being like, that feels good. That tastes good. Ooh, what's that over there? Like, ooh, let me have more of that thing that feels and smells good.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Exactly, I mean, we experience sensuality through our bodies, we don't experience it through our minds. We experience sex and sexuality through our bodies, we don't experience it through our minds. And so it makes sense that we would explore and embody sensuality through our senses. And so this book really allows you to not just to think about what sensuality is, but it allows you to define it on your own terms as you are actually like practising it with these really fun prompts and exercises. So yeah, I love it. I think it's a really, it's a really great book and it's also just a wonderful permission slip for people to dive into this work without it feeling so like lofty
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And I've even just like noticed, just like on this call, I'm like noticing my breathing so much more just even just like talking about it. I'm like, oh, yeah, my like feet in my slippers, like, it's like really soft and like, ooh, there's my breath. And like, like I said at the beginning, like I think sensuality is something that I personally neglected. And I think probably because of just like, I like to intellectualise things instead of often just like being in my body. And it was actually in lockdown, like winter lockdown, where I finally realised that like, scented candles are great.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Whereas before, I was just like, oh, it's just some fad, like, all these candle companies making loads of money off self care. And then I was sad in winter and lockdown and I was like, oh, this is like, it's become a ritual. And there's something - I don't know, there's something about sensuality and rituals that I think, like, go really nicely together and can be really grounding or whatever it is you're trying to achieve from your ritual. And is that something that you talk about?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, the whole, the whole point of this book is to have you create a practice and a ritual of sensuality. And it starts not just with the five senses, it starts with the relationship you have with your body, I mean, it would be really easy to be like, okay, go out and smell something today, you know, but like, there's so many other parts of your body that you have access to. And I think a lot of us are really disconnected from our bodies because of the world that we live in. We don't live in a world that really encourages us to be in our bodies. A lot of us are walking around with a lot of trauma in our bodies, and that creates even more disconnect and more dissociation. And so with Sensual Self, one of the things that I'm really trying to invite people to think about is the relationship that they have with their bodies, starting from what you just mentioned a moment ago, your breath, like, how do you breathe? So many of us are holding our breath without us even knowing it. I know that I'm a chronic breath holder. And like, how does holding your breath keep you from being fully in your body, you know? Keep you from being fully present?
Hannah Witton
This is why yoga instructors tell you to breathe, right? Not because they think you're an idiot, but because you have been literally holding your breath and you need to be reminded to breathe.
Ev'Yan Whitney
And there's so much juicy medicine within breathing. There's - I mean, I just got certified as a breath worker. And so I was like, really -
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, that's a thing.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. And it's - I was really taken aback by just how powerful and important breath is, and like how it can move emotion, how it can bring us back into our bodies in ways that may be really uncomfortable for us, which is why we're holding our breath all the time. So like, these are all these little pieces. It's not just about the senses, it's about the whole body. And so I think that that's where that's where it starts. If, I mean, people are always talking to me about wanting to have the best sex of their lives and the first question I have is like, what relationship do you have with your body? Because if you're disconnected from your body, there's no way that you're going to be present enough in your body to have the best sex of your life that you want to have. So I think that relationship is so foundational. And sensuality is like the the method, the modality that can help get us there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and our relationships with our bodies can be so complex and so just like really tricky to navigate, especially if you've had like trauma, for instance, or just like years of social conditioning. Obviously, we can't solve this in like one podcast episode but what is just like one simple thing that somebody can do if they do have a bit of a tumultuous relationship with their body?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh, this is like probably the hardest thing to do. But it's also the simplest thing to do, which is just to pay attention to your body, like really make a practice of what does it feel like to be in my body? What emotions are coming up for me as I'm in this body? What sensations do I feel in my body? Just like starting to bring about some gentle awareness and mindfulness of what is happening in the body. And I noticed that as I've been doing this, because I've been on a really exciting path in my own work, moving from like, this solely sexual education space to like really focusing on what is the body and what is trauma and how can we bring somatic awareness to ourselves to help us create more connection to the sexual experiences that we have, sitting down and having these really intense kind of dialogues or just like inner check-ins with the body has been really intense for me. A lot of emotion, and a lot of information comes through.
And that was really surprising for me because for the longest time, I think that I had been so disconnected from my body that I just thought like, oh, I, I'm connected to my body, like there's no problems. And then like, you finally do that work to sit down and connect, and you realise, wow, there's so much more information here. Like my body is constantly giving me messages to slow down. My body is constantly giving me messages to rest, my body is constantly asking for more pleasure. And just doing that work, I think is a really beautiful step to creating more connection. And this isn't about body positivity, like I have my own bone to pick about body posi, you know, but this is mostly like what I want to invite for people to think about is just like having body connection. Not from a place of positivity, or negativity, but maybe neutrality. Like how, how is it possible for you to connect to your body in a way that isn't bad or good, it just is, you know? And can you sit in that.
Hannah Witton
It makes me think of just like how children must experience their bodies just like, from a young age, when you're just like discovering the world, and you're discovering the extent of your limbs, and like how everything feels, and that kind of like childlike curiosity where there is no judgement. And oftentimes, that judgement has been something that we've learned as we've grown up, it's not actually innate to us.
Ev'Yan Whitney
That's right.
Hannah Witton
But on the relationship to your body, I was curious, you mentioned at the beginning how, at the end of last year you came out as non binary and being more like, at home in your gender or like realising what your gender is, and living as your gender - like, has that changed your relationship with your body at all? In any way?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh, that is a really good question. Has it changed my relationship? Yes, it has. I mean, I think when you - I think that there, there are a lot of preconceived notions and shoulds that we place upon ourselves, in regards to our gender, in regards to our sexuality, in regards to the way that we look and people perceive us. And so coming out as non binary, alongside doing this work around connecting to my body in a really real and consistent way, has let me see the ways that like, those stories have been impressed upon me. And how I don't have to subscribe to them, like I get to, I get to reject the stories that if my body looks like this, that means that I'm that. Like, if I have, if I have boobs that means that I am a woman and and how much more possibility and nuance has been created for me because of just, just, just this change of language and this change of perspective of how I've seen my body. And I mean, these are things that I've been thinking about for a long time but never found the courage to really like be in them and allow myself to just like feel into them. So it's been really nice to experience what a non binary body is. And truly, nothing's changed about my body. It's just my perspective. And the way that I see my body has changed.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What got you thinking about your gender? Had that been something that you've been thinking about for years, or - I just feel - I've seen so many like, gender and sexuality realisations during lockdown as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, like I said, this is something that has been with me for a long time, but I think because of how limited my understanding at the time was about gender - this idea that like, you're only trans if you have mad body dysphoria, and like or gender dysphoria, like and that hasn't always been the case for me, I don't really experience that much gender dysphoria or body dysphoria. So there are a lot of things that I think I wasn't given access to, or I didn't think that I had access to because of this very narrow idea of what trans looks like or what non binary looks like.
Hannah Witton
Which has been completely like pathologized.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Totally.
Hannah Witton
Of like, you have to be dysphoric you have to have, yeah, like you have to have some sort of, yeah.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, like, you have to to go through like sort of like the medical, the medical industry in order to you know, validate or affirm the fact that you are trans or non binary. And there's also this sense too of non binary equalling like, androgyny, you know, and that was another thing that I realised like, oh, I can be non binary and not be androgynous or not be visibly androgynous. Like, gender is not about how I look, it's about how I feel. It's a very personal, inner experience. And I think that all of these things really came to a head during the pandemic, because I was living alone for the first time in my life. Because my partner and I made this decision to live apart very strangely.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, which I also definitely want to ask you about!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, so like, during that time, like, so much of the outer noise was just - it was so much quieter because of the pandemic, because I was locked in this apartment by myself, because like, I was alone with my body, and was able to experience my body by myself in ways that I had never experienced before. And so that really just shed a light of like, who am I, when nobody is looking? How do I feel my own body, when nobody is around to witness it? When the stakes are so low, like I'm not having to perform, I'm not having to be somebody that I'm not. And it just really cemented for me, my own non binary identity to the extent where like, I'm like, why didn't I come out sooner? You know? I mean, which I know why, but, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But it's, it's so hard, because so much of gender is a performance and it is relational in terms of like, how we interact with other people. And so yeah, unless you are completely isolated, like how, like, it's so much harder to realise how you actually feel. And I definitely had a lot of, kind of, like, questioning over lockdown in terms of just like, what is being a woman to me if I'm not performing my womanhood, like every day.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And kind of, like you said, with, they're like, oh, I am this, and therefore I should this, and on a, like a much smaller scale completely reevaluated my relationship with makeup. Like, that seems so like, insignificant. But I'm also just like, oh, I still, like, learned something about myself that is very much tied to my gender. And I think a lot of people, whether they're cis or trans, have been kind of confronted with a lot of this stuff, when you're not having to perform their gender to other people. But it's something subconsciously, we're not like I am now performing a woman.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right. I mean, it's so heavily ingrained in us, you know, and I think that is why maybe, at least for me, it kind of hit me across the face that I could be non binary, because I'm like, what I - but that's not, that's not what people told me or like, that's not what, that's not how I've lived my entire life up till now. So this, this process of being alone, living alone, for the first time was really revealing for me, because it allowed me to be with myself in ways that I'd never been before without distractions, without the expectation of being someone to somebody else. And I think that there's a link there. I think a lot of us experienced that during the really rough times of the pandemic, where we had to be quiet, and we had to be still and sit with ourselves. So I'm not surprised to see so many people emerging from this pandemic, like, oh, I'm actually like, really queer or I'm non binary, or I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. You know? Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. lot of that. You briefly mentioned it, and I'm curious to dive into this. But during the pandemic, you and your partner lived apart. And this is a thing, like it has a name: living apart together. LAT Community.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, the LAT community, which is like it's kind of a weird, it's kind of a weird acronym. I stumbled across it because I was trying to figure out what the hell was going on in my relationship and were this desire and this hunger to want to create intentional space without breaking up with my partner was coming from and so I was scouring the internet and I found the language Living Apart Together. Apparently, this is something that people have been doing for a while. And I think a lot of people are doing right now just they don't have a name for it. But I really wanted to explore that with my partner.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I guess the the name for it is like long distance relationship. Yeah, we have this idea that like, there is a trajectory for relationships and you go from like a to b and long distance relationship is like step one, and then you live together, rather than it being like the other way around.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right. And a lot of times the long distance relationships are temporary, like they're long distance with the intention of moving in together, of not being long distance anymore. And so I think that that is where the distinction with a long distance relationship is, it's like, you're actually choosing to be long distance, you're actually choosing to live in separate homes, as opposed to like, we have to be long distance because he is deployed.
Hannah Witton
Circumstances.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right, exactly because of circumstances.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's a really good distinction to make, actually, yeah, that definitely does separate them. So why was it something that you wanted to do? And I'd love to hear about your experience with it, because you're also not anymore? So like, did it come to like a natural end? Did you have a plan for it to end?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, it really started when I was travelling, when that was a thing. When I was travelling a lot in 2018, and 2019. And it was the first time that I was ever travelling alone, like I'd never experienced that before. And I loved who I was when I was travelling. And in particular, I loved who I was when I was alone in hotel rooms. And I had nobody to think about but myself, and I loved this person that I was finding there. And I noticed that when I had a trip to LA, I was really - I'm from LA originally, at the time I was living in the Pacific Northwest, I was feeling like oh my god, if I weren't with my partner, I would totally move to LA. Like, it wouldn't even be a thought, like, I would just I would tell my landlord, I'm done. And I would move immediately.
And I was thinking like, that's an interesting thought: if I wasn't with my partner, I would make this choice for myself like this very, quote unquote, selfish choice to do something that was really good for my mental health and wellbeing. And my partner at the time wasn't interested in moving to LA, he was like, yeah, I'd really rather live in the Pacific Northwest. And I was not really feeling the Pacific Northwest. And so that is really what started it. I was like, I am so much happier here in LA, you don't really want to be here. What would it look like for me to live by myself for a few months, and to just like, try it out? Because I'm going to be working a lot anyway. So that's how it started. And then it really kind of devolved into this, like, whoa, we've been together for a really long time. It'll be 15 years in November. And like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow,
Ev'Yan Whitney
Like we've been together since we were 19. And we've never had this experience of being apart, like, so much of our relationship was really enmeshed. And there was some low level codependency happening in this relationship. And so it just, we really started to reckon with our relationship as a whole and about who we were before we got into this relationship and who we wanted to be individually. Maybe not outside of the relationship, but maybe like, offset, you know, like a reminder that we are two individual beings and that like we have sort of lost ourselves in this relationship.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And when you've been together that long from that kind of age, you've had such like, growth in that time that you would have been having anyway, but it's just happened together. And so you're like, how much of this is me? How much of this is us?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah. And so I was really curious to figure that out, like, who am I, outside of this relationship? Because I don't even know. I mean, I got together with you when I was 19. So I'm not even quite sure who I am. I'm not sure if I like what I like because I like it. And not because, you know, it's something that we have always done together. And so, I mean, I'm really simplifying the story, because it was like, it was months and months and months and so many conversations, and there was a lot of heartbreak here. And there was a lot of sadness, because we weren't quite sure what this meant. I mean, I think because of the culture that we live in, around relationship, it's like, you get together with someone - and we're married too so like, you marry someone, and then like, that's it, you know, like, and if you're anticipating or entertaining ideas of separating - and that word separation has a lot of heaviness with it, particularly in long term relationships. It's like there's something wrong. But we have to reckon with like-
Hannah Witton
It's like a threat to the relationship.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right? And so like, the thing that was like really kind of mind fucking us was like, there was like, there's nothing wrong with our relationship. Like we didn't want to separate because we were unhappy. We wanted to separate and do it intentionally with the intention that like, we would come back together. We just wanted this the space to feel who we were and to figure ourselves out. And yeah, we decided to do it. I had no idea that the pandemic was going to be a thing.
Hannah Witton
What great timing.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, it was literally like, a couple of weeks after we finally moved everything to LA, that's when everything got shut down and the pandemic happened. So that was completely unexpected. When we were thinking about doing this, we're like, okay, we're gonna see each other at least like two times a month. Like that was something that we wanted to do as a way to maintain connection. Like I would go up to the Pacific Northwest.
Hannah Witton
And you couldn't!
Ev'Yan Whitney
And then we couldn't. So we had four months -
Hannah Witton
So then you were in a long distance relationship.
Ev'Yan Whitney
We really were, yeah, that - completely outside of our circumstances, we had four months where we did not see each other. And it was really scary because of the pandemic. We didn't know what was going on. And we - but we did it, we did it. I would say that we did it really successfully. Because you know, we're still together. I mean, I don't think that that is a make or break of success. But that's what we wanted. Ultimately, we didn't want this to be the end of our relationship we just wanted - we wanted some intentional time apart. And yeah, it was it was really beautiful. It was really beautiful.
Hannah Witton
That's so good. And I'm - I think these conversations and relationships, like you said, especially long term ones, can be really difficult to have because of that feeling of like, oh, they're running away from me. Or they're running away from the relationship. Rather than it being like, no, I'm actually going towards something.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Rather than like being like, I'm moving away from something I don't like, it's I'm moving towards something that I want and that I like. And I just wish there was more space in, I guess, like, traditional monogamous, like, relationships for those kinds of conversations to happen, where you're like, actually, there's some seeking that I need to do that I can't do with you, or I can't do in this relationship. That doesn't mean that I'm ending the relationship. But it just means that I need to go elsewhere to do this thing, or figure out this thing or explore this thing. You know, like, this is just exciting to me.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it brought up a lot for us, it brought up a lot of core wounds, it brought up a lot about our own individual traumas of rejection, and abandonment. And daddy issues, mommy issues. I mean, it really, really spiked things for us. But it was really good that it did because it allowed us to look at ourselves outside of a relationship and figure out, okay, what do we want? What do we need? How much more healing do we need to do in order for us to feel like we can stand on our own two feet and not use this relationship as a crutch? Or not use this relationship as a way to circumvent accountability, or just like bettering ourselves, you know? I think in a relationship, when you're in a relationship for a super long time, you get comfortable, and you don't sit and think about and interrogate your habits or your routines, or the ways that you know, you might not be participating in healthy dynamics in that relationship. And so living apart really allowed us to see ourselves as individual people. And it also helped us get clear about what kind of relationship we wanted to build. And ultimately, when we came together, we decided to come back together in January of 2021. And that was a very natural end, it just felt like, okay, we're done.
Hannah Witton
We're done!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, it felt very much like we got as much as we wanted to get out of it and we didn't need to carry on any further. But it really felt like we had created a new relationship. Because we were two different people at the end of this. I mean, he figured out so much about himself. I figured out so much about myself. We were both in therapy really intensely during this time. And we just got really clear about our needs and our wants and our desires, both within the relationship and out of it.
Hannah Witton
And with the like routines and habits that you mentioned, I think it's so easy for us to like, default into these things, especially along like gender lines, as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, without even noticing that you're doing it. This stuff is just like so entrenched and so whether you are going to be living apart together or even just like in your current relationship, it's just so important, I think to like interrogate even just like the smallest of things, like your habits and your routines, and being like, wait is this actually what we want? Is this like serving us as as individuals and as like a partnership as well or are we just doing these things - again, back to the shoulds - because we think this is how it should be, and how we should behave?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right, right. Yeah, one of the questions that really messed me up before we started this was, who am I outside of this relationship? Like really thinking like, if I, if I didn't have Jonathan, my partner, if I wasn't married, what choices would I be making that's different to what I'm doing today? Where would I - where would I live? What kind of work I do? What kind of friends would I have? You know? And that that really messed me up, I was like, wow, I would be kind of a completely different person. And that's not a bad thing. It's just, you know, something to think about, you know.
Hannah Witton
I think people are scared of asking that question for themselves, because they're worried that the answer will, like lead to the relationship breaking up, or whatever. But that doesn't like necessarily mean that that's going to happen. And actually, like, like you said, it's not necessarily a good or a bad thing. You can be like, oh, what kind of person would I be? Or like, where would I be living? Or what job would I be doing? And who would my friends be? If I wasn't in this relationship? And feel neutrally about the answers to that. Because every choice that we make - it's like the whole, like, parallel universes thing, like, every choice that we make is just going to lead to completely different outcomes for our lives, and the relationships that you have. That - those are little choices that we're making every day.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. And you can have these conversations with your partner as well. You know, like, that would be a fun couple's exercise, like sit in the dark for a little bit by yourself. Think about who you would be -
Hannah Witton
What would you be doing if we weren't?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Who would you be? If, like, where would you live? Like, How different would your choices be your traditions, your rituals be? And then come together and be like, okay, is there a way that we can make this work? Is there ways that we can have your individuality be expressed within this relationship? Have my individuality be expressed in this relationship? If not, then like, what are ways that we can do it on our own? It doesn't have to mean the end of the relationship, it just might mean that the relationship need needs to expand and make more space for your individual selves to be explored and celebrated.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, I love that. So I had some questions from people on Instagram.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Oh, fun!
Hannah Witton
Who wanna know some stuff!
Ev'Yan Whitney
Okay.
Hannah Witton
Um, so somebody asked, how do you feel sensual when you live with parents or in a shared house and you don't have any of your own space?
Ev'Yan Whitney
I mean, first of all, what does sensual mean? Because as we said in the beginning, you know, I mean, I could hear that word and think of what that means. But perhaps, you know, the word sensual for you is actually a replacement for the word sexual because you do live with your parents, and you can't really explore your sexuality. So sensuality feels much easier to access. So I would - I would ask you to think about what does sensuality mean for you? What does being sensual look like? As far as exploring it with your parents - I mean, I think sometimes we think that sensuality is in bubble baths and crystal dildos and dancing naked and eating chocolate in bed or whatever.
Hannah Witton
Which can all be great things. If that's you wanna do.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Absolutely. I love every single one of those things. But I think that there's also something in there about sensuality, not - sensuality being so much more simple than that, like, can you experience sensuality by going for a walk by yourself? Like, can you feel the sensations of nature around you and have your senses be aroused in that? Can you experience pleasure in a non sexual context in other ways, you know, maybe that is -
Hannah Witton
From the smell of your parents cooking.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Sure! Eating a really good meal, cooking a really good meal, um, listening to music., I mean, that's one of my favourite things to do, if I don't have a lot of space, or I don't have a lot of time. I'm living with my partner now and so that's been a really interesting experience transitioning from full days where I'm just like, doing my own thing. And now I'm having to sort of like, be a little bit more strategic about how I'm going to get that self care in, or how I'm going to engage in my own sensuality that has nothing to do with my partner. But it can work you know, it can happen, and I think that finding those little, those little retreats that you can have, whether that's taking a bath and putting on your favourite music in your headphones, whether that is going and buying something that is really delicious and it's going to fill your whole body with pleasure. Whether that is like actually telling your parents, hey, you guys should go out to dinner so I can have the house to myself for an hour. You know, like, do whatever you can to make that a priority as much as possible and start small.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's great advice. Someone asked, How do you stay zoned in to partner sex when there is a time crunch/the focus isn't on you.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Ha. So I'm wondering if this question is about like, quickies like -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I think half of it is about quickies. And then the other half maybe is related to quickies. Or it could be because their partner has a penis and then maybe the time crunches that they need to ejaculate. I don't know.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah. This might be an unpopular opinion. I don't really like quickies. I don't.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Like I, I, I am someone that really wants to be in the experience of sex. And this has nothing to do with orgasm. Because I believe that successful sex doesn't necessarily require an orgasm at the end. But if I feel rushed, if I feel like we got to do this in 15 minutes, like my brain is not going - like my brain is going to be so involved in the act that my body is not going - like I'm not gonna be present in my body. So I kind of have to take quickies off the table for me. Because for me in my brain, it's very difficult for me to be fully in my body and fully in the experience of the sex and the pleasure and the intimacy that is being shared with my partner if I'm only doing it for 15 minutes, so I'm kind of a bad person to ask because I'm like, I just don't do quickies because I just I don't think, yeah, it's I want it all.
Hannah Witton
And I think also like if this person is feeling that they're struggling being zoned in, if they are trying to have a quickie and there's a time crunch, then like maybe they're similar. Maybe quickies aren't for them. I'm someone who I get, like, aroused by there being a time crunch.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Ah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like that is exciting to me. I'm like, go go go. We've only got 15 minutes, we got to be somewhere like this is really fun and exciting to me. And like I love that and I thrive on that and then like I also enjoy the like time where you spend much more time on it. So like I feel like in my life, quickies have a time and a place. And I guess it's just figuring out like, what you want out of sex and like, you don't have to be into everything. So if you're going to be feeling rushed, maybe like, maybe let's not, because I don't want to feel rushed.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, yeah, like you have you have a choice. You know, I mean, I love that you gave that. That other side of things where you know, that 15 minutes is like, yes, let's do it, I'm so excited, like, this is gonna be fun. And for me, it's just like, oh my god, so much pressure, like so much pressure? How can I cram all of these sensual pleasures into 15 minutes? There's no fucking way. So.
Hannah Witton
No, you can't - you do have to be picky. You have to be like, this is the thing that we're gonna do.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, hopefully that was helpful.
Hannah Witton
Hopefully. Somebody asked: mental prep for being on top. Finding the courage to try and not feel ridiculous.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Mental prep for being on top. I mean -
Hannah Witton
I'm not sure what gender this person is. But well, I mean, I would assume they're a woman, maybe.
Ev'Yan Whitney
I mean, regardless of what your gender is, I'm, I would be curious about where your mental space is, when you're on top? Like what insecurities you might have, what self talk is like, what you're fixated on when you're on top.
Hannah Witton
What you're assuming the other person is thinking as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Right? Maybe you're having performance anxiety on top. I would really stop and like, think about those things. I think it's really easy for us to be like, okay, I'm just gonna, like override my body, override the insecurities and just be there. And like, unfortunately, sometimes our bodies don't work like that. Sometimes it's just like, no matter how much you try to think your way out of thinking about something, it just doesn't work. And so I would actually ask, like, rather than trying to, like fake it till you make it like, what, where is that - where's that lack of confidence coming from? Or where is that lack of - where is that space where like, you feel like you have to mentally prep? What are you prepping for? And why do you feel like you need that prepping? And not as a way to judge or to be critical, but just to be curious about like, where that disconnect might be coming from and then maybe focusing on or working on what those insecurities are. You know, which I know is not very fun. I'm sure people - whenever people ask me for advice, they're probably expecting me to be like, oh, just try this position and all the cares in your head will go away, but you know, it's not that easy.
Hannah Witton
People want to know all the positions, but the answer is never a position.
Ev'Yan Whitney
It's like what position do you have in your own mind, like, and how can you, you know, really begin to work through whatever inhibitions or blocks are coming up. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I think one of the tricky things with being on top as well as you just feel so visible, you feel like you have to perform rather than just experience what is happening. And I've also personally found, like on the topic of positions, though, that some of the most pleasurable ones are the ones where you look the most ridiculous. Like, if someone, like was looking from afar, or even just like my partner's angle, like his view, is just like, not flattering at all. But, who cares?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah, I mean, I would be curious about the whole top position too, like, are you doing - are you on top ecause you want to be? Or are you on top because you feel like you have to in order to perform an aspect of pleasure for your partner? And I mean, there's no right or wrong answer for that. I mean, I think I certainly have found myself getting off on the performance, like getting off on being on top and knowing that my partner is looking at my body and feeling into that. So like this is - these are just questions to be curious and to really see like, okay, what do you prefer? You know, what sort of shoulds are you imposing upon yourself about being on top? Or do you prefer to be on the bottom? I mean, people sometimes ask me what my favourite sex position is, and I'm like, missionary, all the way. I love missionary. And people are like, really confused about that, because -
Hannah Witton
Like, oh, you're not sexually liberated enough if your favourite position is missionary, like, no. Missionary's great
Ev'Yan Whitney
I love missionary, it's the best! I feel like I love feeling the weight of my partner against my skin. And we're like, rubbing together. So like, I don't know.
Hannah Witton
I love that it's minimal effort for me as well.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Literally that. And I feel like he can get the spot just right. So like, maybe, maybe you're not a top position type of person. And that's okay. You know?
Hannah Witton
That is okay. Well, Ev'Yan, thank you so much. This has just been such an enlightening conversation. And I am just so grateful for your time and for your wisdom.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this conversation.
Hannah Witton
No worries. Where can people find you online and your podcast? And when is your book coming out?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes, you can find me on my website evyanwhitney.com. It just got a beautiful overhaul so I would love for people to take a look at it. It's so gorgeous. My podcast is called Sensual Self, you can find that anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple podcasts. And my book, also called Sensual Self will be out December 7, but you can preorder it right now. And to do so and to also look at the book, it's really beautiful you can go to evyanwhitney.com/sensualself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And preordering really help s authors. So if you can and you want to do please preorder.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yes! Thank you for saying that.
Hannah Witton
No worries. No. I know, I get it's like please pre order. Yeah, no, it really, really does help. Are you a new author?
Ev'Yan Whitney
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I mean, it helps all authors but like, especially like debut authors, like yeah, absolutely it does help. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much.
Ev'Yan Whitney
Thank you!
Hannah Witton
And thank you all so much for listening. Bye!