Being Child Free, Sexual Pleasure and Sex Education in India With Leeza Mangaldas | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy with me, your host, Hannah Witton. In this week's episode, my guest is the wonderful Leeza Mangaldas. Leeza is one of India's foremost digital content creators focused on discourse around sex, sexuality, sexual health, pleasure and the body. To combat the strong stigma that still surrounds sex in India, Leeza started creating sex education content on YouTube and Instagram in 2017 with the intention to normalise these conversations. She also has a popular Hindi podcast called The Sex Podcast with Leeza Mangaldas. Her work covers everything from consent to contraception, from masturbation to orgasms, and she constantly seeks to push boundaries on topics that are widely considered taboo in India. Leeza was named one of GQ 25 Most Influential Young Indians in 2021, and was the recipient of the Google SheThePeople Digital Women award for content and is a current recipient of the Pleasure Project's Pleasure Fellowship.
Hannah Witton
I've been following Leeza's work for a while, and I really wanted to have her on the podcast as a fellow sex educator and content creator to talk about all the important work she is doing in India. We spoke about Leeza's own non-existent experience of sex education growing up in India. but how having a family who were open about sex and bodies helped her feel safe to talk about it. Leeza went into the stigma that still surrounds women's sexuality and bodily autonomy in India, and how she is using her platform to talk about sexual pleasure. Leeza told me about 100 Stories of Pleasure, a platform she created to celebrate the stories of women and queer people's pleasure, and talked about the importance of sharing examples of joy rather than just reiterating shame and fear narratives, which she believes can perpetuate the idea of sex as something dishonourable. We also spoke about Leeza's choice to be child free, navigating the pressure of Indian culture to become a wife and mother, and why she wants to hear more nuanced representations of motherhood, rather than just always putting it on a pedestal. I loved my chat with Leeza and hearing her talk about trusting your own voice about what you do and don't want, as I think that's something that we could all do more of.
Hannah Witton
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is at @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify: it's really appreciated. And without further ado, here is my chat with the fantastic Leeza Mangaldas.
Hannah Witton
Leeza, welcome to the podcast, I was so excited to have a fellow YouTube sex educator to chat with.
Leeza Mangaldas
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. And thank you for all the amazing stuff you do. I've very sort of delightedly watched your videos for years.
Hannah Witton
Oh, thank you so much. So let's just, like, get into it. yYou are based in India. And I'm curious, like, what was your relationship with sex growing up? And like, did you receive any sex education? Or like, what were the conversations about sex happening around you?
Leeza Mangaldas
there was no real sex ed in school, unfortunately. And that tends to be the case for the most part in the school system in India. Maybe if you're lucky in like biology class, in the eighth or ninth grade, you might get a little bit of a glimpse into the reproductive system as part of general biology, you know, curriculum, but there isn't like a specialised sex ed class at all. And then even in that biology chapter, often the reproductive system is like glossed over or teachers just don't teach the chapter. It's very awkward. And it's entirely centred on reproduction as the chapter title suggests, right? There's no mention of pleasure, there's no external genitals, the vulva, etc, clitoris don't get a mention. So I feel like in official context, we hardly had any sex education. I feel lucky that my family was relatively open about talking about things such as you know, stuff about the body or relationships or health or whatever. I always felt safe seeking that information from my parents if I ever had a question.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that.
Leeza Mangaldas
And I think unfortunately, that's not the case for the majority of people that I grew up with. I think, like, there is a huge taboo around it globally but particularly in, you know, my part of the world perhaps.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Did you become that person who like if - because if you could talk about it with your parents - did you become the person who would like get answers to all your sex questions and then like relay it to all of your school friends? And they'd be like, "Leeza, will you ask your parents this?"
Leeza Mangaldas
Yeah! Did - were you that person too? It sounds like maybe you were also that person.
Hannah Witton
I mean, not massively like my home was definitely like quite an open place. We definitely got more of like - I remember a friend was like coming over for dinner after school and another friend like warned them. They were like, "Careful. At Hannah's family dinner table they like to talk about willies." So it was more just like, careful what you're getting into, like the conversation from that household are unsanitized
Leeza Mangaldas
I love that. I mean, it is - we're lucky to have had that type of environment at home where you will - at least, I think while it's hard to escape inheriting shame around sex in the body - like it's just so prevalent and so omnipresent, that no matter how liberal your own upbringing is, you're gonna get some of it.
Leeza Mangaldas
I feel like at least having that sense of like, you know, it's okay to talk about this stuff, my body is fine the way it is - like, I definitely think my parents didn't, like, add to the general - you know what I mean? The general shame that's anyway going to be entering the way you see the whole arena of sex and the body as a young person.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
No, that makes sense. So how did you get to the point where you were making YouTube videos about sex? What was that journey like? How did you decide that was something that you wanted to do?
Leeza Mangaldas
So I actually was doing a bunch of different media related stuff. But even though my interests were sexuality and gender, I wasn't getting to talk about that stuff as a young journalist. I just had to talk about one of the editors of the TV channel or publication I was freelancing for required, you know?
Leeza Mangaldas
So I started my YouTube channel sort of as a passion project alongside the work I was doing that paid my rent. Because I really wanted to talk about this stuff. Because as a young person navigating my own sexuality and sexual health in India, I found there to be such a lack of resources. I wanted to create the resource I wish I had, you know? Because even if your parents are lovely, and even if you're pretty well, sort of like - you know, even if you're able to express yourself, that isn't enough. That really isn't. Where are the gynaecologists that are judgement free? Where can I buy a sex toy? What is the best contraception for me? Like beyond a point your parents aren't - that isn't even the responsibility to answer all those questions beyond a point, right? There needs to be, like, resources easily available publicly, and information easily available in various channels for young people to access, both on a policy level and a school level. I mean, you name it, right. And I feel like here that's just silence, you know? You don't hear about it in school. Even doctors who are supposed to be - I mean, this is their job, right? I mean, when you go to a gynaecologist in India, often the first question they'll ask is, "Are you married?"
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Leeza Mangaldas
Instead of "are you sexually active?" "Are you married?" And I mean, you know, they're part of the same society, right? The patriarchy and all of that is not - it doesn't spare doctors. So I'm not blaming doctors, but I'm just saying that it can be hard as a young person to get this information, even from the channels that are supposed to be providing it, you know.
Hannah Witton
And navigating that just seems like really complicated and a lot of work as well. Because if you don't know what questions to ask - and then also, like you were saying with the, like, gynaecologist or doctor example, like, they're people that in society we trust, and we - you know, they have like a certain authority over us, and we're like, "They're the experts, so I'll default to them." But then if we're being failed by those systems too, we can often feel like there was something wrong with us, like we didn't do something right.
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. Exactly. And I think to a large extent globally, still, a lot of these, like official channels that are supposed to be providing this information - even when they do provide it - are not sufficiently queer inclusive, and not sufficiently pleasure inclusive, are not particularly bothered with women's pleasure, you know. I mean, I feel like there's still a very heteronormative and like male-centric positioning of the kind of information that is readily available about sex. And so - even when it's coming from a doctor, or I don't know, whatever, whatever other official, you know, policy related communication around family planning, or something like that. So I wanted to kind of, I thought, even though I might not have all the answers, I just want to create a space where we can ask the question. And I studied literature and art with a focus on gender and sexuality in college and so I've always been really interested in the ideas around sexuality, you know what I mean? I was lucky to come of age in New York City, where I was attending uni on a scholarship at Columbia, it was such a wonderful place to come of age because it was so - I felt so free. I think it's very unique. And the whole of the US isn't like that, you know, it's just a particularly liberal city. And I was an RA while there, which is the resident advisor, you're like in charge of the students on one floor. And so we had to do, you know, consent training workshops, and some basic sex ed around contraception and stuff for incoming students. There was a bag of condoms on my door.
Hannah Witton
And that's like peer to peer education, because you're only like a couple of years older than them.
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. Peer to peer. And it's very - I mean, they train you to do that work. But what's nice is it's very, like judgement free. You're not telling them in this, I don't know, preachy way what to do, but rather just making it feel safe to have these conversations -
Leeza Mangaldas
They're like, "We're not gonna be able to stop the freshers from having sex. So."
Leeza Mangaldas
"We might as well make condoms easily available!" You know, you could walk into health services, and have an IUD inserted, if you wanted, you know. And then here, it was so hard to do those simple things. Buying condoms as a woman is so mortifying at an Indian chemist.
Leeza Mangaldas
Oh really?
Leeza Mangaldas
I mean, I guess it isn't if you go to - like people will look at you funny, or they'll just be aghast that you're doing - that you have the balls to even do it. It's maybe easier to buy them online. But it's a purchase that's typically made by the penis owner, you know, by the person with the penis, because -
Hannah Witton
And I guess that as a woman, like, without like a wedding ring on.
Leeza Mangaldas
Even with a wedding ring on, it's just like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, because it's like, "Why are you using condoms? You should be trying to have babies."
Leeza Mangaldas
And women in general aren't supposed to be women don't have sex, Hannah.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Leeza Mangaldas
We aren't - we are only - babies just emerge. The bird brings them! I feel like there's definitely a huge stigma around women's sexual agency and autonomy. And to be an unmarried woman, oh my, like, very bad. Very, very bad.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz something that I wanted to chat with you about was so you're quite open about not wanting to have kids? And obviously, like, I'm about to have my first kid. And yeah, what's it like making those decisions for yourself as a woman in India? And do you feel kind of like that pressure or have you experienced any judgement because of that decision?
Leeza Mangaldas
Yeah, I mean, that congratulations to you. You're gonna be an amazing mum, I'm sure. So -
Hannah Witton
Thanks! And congratulations to you.
Leeza Mangaldas
Thank you. Thank you. On being child free.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leeza Mangaldas
I think, well, first of all, I think it's wonderful to be able to have different goals and, like, whatever aspirations for life and be able to still respect someone else's choice. I feel like more people need to do that. Right. I think sometimes this argument can be very polarising, where women, or people in general, like, attack each others' perspectives, as opposed to being like, there's room for both perspectives.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm so happy about all of my, like, close friends who are child free, and want to be child free, because I'm like, great. You you will, like, be great, like, aunties and babysitters." And you know, like, because they won't be bogged down with their own children. So it's like, look after mine for a few hours! And you know, then they get the like, the "Oh, isn't this nice?" And then they can just hand the back to me at the end of the day kind of thing.
Leeza Mangaldas
Yes, I mean, there are so many ways to participate in the lives of young people without being a parent oneself if that is something one would like to do. But I think also, I mean, you know, particularly, let's say in the Indian context, for most people, marriage and kids is not a choice. It's an inevitability. It's like the decisions' made for you by your family. At a very young age as well, you know. If you're like not married by the time you're 30 as a woman, you are a deviant. An aberration. There's something the matt- you know? And I think a lot of young people are not even really allowed to think about what they want. Like in your early 20s a groom will be found and you will be married and then there will be pressure to produce an heir. A male child, ideally.
Hannah Witton
An heir! Oh my god.
Leeza Mangaldas
I'm telling you! That's how the - I mean, it's the patriarchy!
Hannah Witton
I'm gonna call my unborn child at the moment like my heir.
Leeza Mangaldas
Your heir! I'm so serious, though. I feel like we're still in many ways, like thinking about - I mean, society is still structured in this very medieval way, or Victorian way. We were a colony, right. I think that this idea that, for example, sex is only acceptable within a heterosexual marriage, ideally with a husband with whom you have the same religion and same caste. Ppposite sex, you know - gay marriages isn't legal here so that's already indicating what is acceptable and what isn't, right, in terms of marriage.
Hannah Witton
And that's the colonial leftover as well. Exactly.
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly, and then sex is only acceptable ideally for the purpose of procreation as opposed to recreation, right. I mean, even masturbation is somehow lesser in the hierarchy of acceptable sex than sex with your husband to have a baby. It's so bizarre when masturbation is like the safest possible form of experiencing sexual pleasure. So I feel like I mean, there's all of that, you know, societal conditioning, that doesn't make much sense. And I do, to some extent, feel like it just never sat well with me, this pressure. It's nice when having children or getting married is something you're doing for the sheer joy of it. But I think that it is hard. I mean, and the institution of marriage is so deeply entrenched in the upkeep of existing social hierarchies, because it is so endogamous here particularly that somehow I just could never - it just never won me over. You know, it felt like a, like a decorated cage. I don't know. It was like the nice outfits and the big wedding and everything is just a fancy packaging on a terrible -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that's just one day. And that's not the marriage, as well.
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly, exactly. But I mean, I don't want - I feel like I sound a bit negative here. And I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. But I think like, you know, even if we make certain choices -
Hannah Witton
As a married person, I'm like, "Yes, I agree with you."
Leeza Mangaldas
Thank you! I feel, like, look, we can all make unfeminist choices, right? And in my head maybe getting married is like, I don't know, it doesn't fit into my scheme of things. But that isn't to say that I don't want a partner or that I don't also in many ways have my own aspirations conditioned by much of these same things. You know what I mean? I just think perhaps it was - I mean, marriage and kids actually are quite separate things. Because you could have kids without getting married and you can get married and not have kids.
Hannah Witton
I was a witness at my parents' wedding. They got married for a visa.Oh,
Leeza Mangaldas
Oh, interesting. Yes. So I mean, are you and your partner married?
Hannah Witton
Yes. And we actually got married before getting pregnant. So like, very traditional. That was not in my life plan. That was his idea.
Leeza Mangaldas
Okay. I mean, you know, we do things for the people we love, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we do. Like get married.
Leeza Mangaldas
It's a funny conundrum, I feel, where if you have a different - you know, if marriage isn't important to you, but it's really important to your partner, do you get married or not? Do you have kids or not? Those are difficult questions to navigate. And often you do go along with what the person you love wants, because if they want something - you know -
Hannah Witton
As long as you're not super against it. I was just a bit like, "Well, you know, I get to have a party where I'm the centre of the attention." like, great. Yeah, very excited about that.
Leeza Mangaldas
No, I get that. I get that. I guess I just never really needed, wanted that. And there's no pressure from my parents. But also kids have never really appealed to me. I don't know. I feel like they're a little overrated. Like we don't hear enough the fact that like looking after kids isn't all strawberries and roses, right? I'm some people love it. But not all people love it. And we only see visions of people loving it. Like I was really happy to see this movie called The Lost Daughter. Did you watch it on Netflix?
Hannah Witton
Ooh, no.
Leeza Mangaldas
I feel like it portrayed motherhood in a light that you don't usually see presented. I mean, like the protagonist has this line where she says, "Motherhood is a crushing responsibility."
Hannah Witton
Like, yeah.
Leeza Mangaldas
It is indeed, I think. It can be, right? It can be. And it isn't for everyone.
Hannah Witton
It's interesting as well, because yeah, a lot of people with kids will talk about how their children bring them like the most joy in their life. But then, actually, when you look at research, like, people with children generally have like lower life and sexual satisfaction than those without kids.
Leeza Mangaldas
I love how self aware you were about this process.
Hannah Witton
No, I knew I knew that about the research going into this. I was like, "No, this this is a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
Leeza Mangaldas
Yeah, I mean, I think it would be just nice if we heard more of the more nuanced sort of vision of motherhood was presented. As opposed to it being - and particularly in India. My God. It is like the ultimate thing for a woman to be. The most beatific thing she could possibly be is a mother, you know?
Hannah Witton
And how dare you say anything bad about it.
Leeza Mangaldas
Yeah. How dare you not want to be a mother? And how dare you ever say that motherhood is anything less than the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know what I mean?
Hannah Witton
Oof, yeah.
Leeza Mangaldas
It's just a lot of pressure.
Hannah Witton
A lot of pressure. Like I've not gotten to that point yet. But even like here in the UK, I definitely see a lot of, like, judgement sometimes around like parents online who are maybe being a bit more realistic about like the reality of parenting. And then, like, maybe getting some pushback and criticism and stuff for that. Because, you know, "Children should be the best thing."
Leeza Mangaldas
We're not allowed to be honest in many ways, right? I feel like I mean, I don't know, I don't think I'd be offended if my parents publicly said that like being parents was hard. I don't know why they think that it's some sort of insult to your child or something if you ever admit that being a parent was anything less than ideal even for one moment, but I think surely we should be able to have those conversations. Like I think to a large extent filial relationships are sort of, I don't know, there's a lot of obligation and a lack of honesty often in the way that I think parents and children are encouraged to interact with each other, you know.
Hannah Witton
That makes a lot of sense to me.
Leeza Mangaldas
And I think it would be nice if we could be more real with each other and more honest about everything. I mean, it's not easy being someone's kid and it isn't - I have - oh, there's this wonderful poem which summarises my thoughts about kids. Shall I read it to you?
Hannah Witton
Yes, please.
Leeza Mangaldas
This is in no way a bearing on my own parents or anything. I mean, this is a light hearted funny poem. I really love it. It's quite dark though. But Mum and Dad, do forgive me. This doesn't reflect upon you at all. It's called This Be the Verse by Philip Larkin.
Leeza Mangaldas
"They fuck you up your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
and don't have any kids yourself."
Hannah Witton
Love that. Just break the cycle: don't have children.
Leeza Mangaldas
No, I mean, I am joking a little bit. But you know, I think there is something to be said for like - thus far I think the lack of parents and children dealing with like generational traumas together, or parents dealing with mental health, you know, and then kids - I mean, in India, I think that mental health is still more stigmatised than perhaps in some of, I don't know, maybe in the UK, or I think in the West, it's become almost trendy to have a therapist and we're getting there, but not quite, not quite there yet. And I think there's a lot of like, keeping up appearances within families, like the worry of what other people think often dictates how a family operates, instead of the individual sort of aspirations or joys or hopes or whatever of any one person in the family, you know what I mean?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, how it looks from the outside.
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. And I think it's a shame.
Hannah Witton
Rather than the wellbeing of the people who're actually in those relationships.
Leeza Mangaldas
Yeah, and also the well being of the unit, as opposed to the wellbeing of anyone, you know? If you want to do something that your parents do not approve off, such as marry someone of another religion, you will not be allowed to marry that person. Do you know what I mean? Even if you're madly - like, "Oh, there'll be a big fight." And it will compromise the unit. You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a lot.
Leeza Mangaldas
Things like that. It's a lot.
Hannah Witton
I want to shift gears slightly to talk about sexual pleasure. And I'm curious, do you think that pleasure is a human right? And what are some obstacles to like, especially women in India, to having this right, this human right to pleasure?
Leeza Mangaldas
I think it should be. I mean, I think everyone deserves the right to pleasure. They can exercise that right or not, if they so choose. And also pleasure can be so many things, right? It isn't only sexual pleasure. But I think for many people, sexual pleasure can be a wonderful form of pleasure. I think it's tricky to - when we talk about rights, obviously I'm not saying that everybody is just entitled to sex and everyone owes each other sex. No, obviously not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's a slippery slope that we don't want to go down. Yeah.
Leeza Mangaldas
That's, of course, not what - I mean, consent is absolutely vital. But I think that there are certain sort of, like, systemic barriers to accessing pleasure for certain groups of people. And we need to address those, right? I mean, when something like female genital mutilation is still something that occurs in the world in 2022, that is a systemic barrier to either, you know, I mean. So So I think just to clarify, I'm not trying at all to say that, like, you should be able to have sex with whosoever you choose as your right. But I think that we also deserve more information about how our bodies work in relation to pleasure, because so often our pleasure can seem so mysterious to us because we never get any information about any of it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I really hate that like narrative of like, women's bodies, quote unquote, "women's bodies are so complicated."
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. "So difficult. Mysterious."
Hannah Witton
Exactly.
Leeza Mangaldas
"Orgasms are just elusive for women." Exactly. Exactly. Because once you discover how things work, it's actually not difficult at all, right? Yeah. I mean, that can be such a radical realisation. For me it was so radical to discover when I first used a vibrator that like I can orgasm in three minutes every single time. We were just doing it all wrong. You know? But I mean, how do you know? If you don't know, you don't know, right? I think I didn't even know I didn't know how much pleasure my body was capable of until I experienced it. And I wish - I mean, some part of me wishes it would just like rain vibrators and everybody had one.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, screw it's raining man. It's raining vibrators.
Leeza Mangaldas
And that lubricant was easily available. That contraception was easily available. And also women would not face as much judgement and consequences they do when they assert their sexuality. Like I think it can be so exhausting to have to fight your family and the slut shaming and like all this - for your identity to be a fight, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So you recently started this 100 Stories of Pleasure project on Instagram. Do you want to tell us a bit about about what that is, and like, why you started it, and what goes on on that Instagram page?
Leeza Mangaldas
I was really delighted to be to be named a Pleasure Fellow by the Pleasure Project, which is this wonderful organisation that advocates for the inclusion of pleasure in SRHR, policy, education, et cetera, et cetera, globally. And as part of that, a project that I've created with two other Pleasure Fellows, is this 100 stories of pleasure project, which is a crowdsourced sort of a page where it's currently in the form of an Instagram page, but anyone can submit a pleasure story, and we try and publish the most, the ones that - well, actually we try and publish as many as possible, but we're probably going to get more than 100. And so you know. But But the point was to try and focus on narratives from women and queer people, because I feel like you've just hear less of those pleasure stories in the mainstream to begin with, and we really wanted to celebrate those stories. And so I think in that, you know, publicly when sex does come up, let's say in a newspaper article or something like that, it's always a negative. It's a story of violence, typically. And, I mean, obviously, those stories need to be covered. And we need to do something about gender-based violence and sexual violence, and it's horrible, but I think it would also be nice, if narratives of joy and pleasure made it to people's consciousness as well, because otherwise, we're only reiterating this fear and shame and like stigmatised and scandalous kind of like attitudes to sex, which, in a way, I think, only perpetuate it.
It's a funny thing, when you look at sex as this thing that you can exact on someone to insult them, or to discredit them or to dishonour them, you know, you're perpetuating the use of sexual violence as a tool of violence. You know, perhaps if you had more exuberant, joyful stories of sex where everybody was a willing participant, it was the best thing ever, you're unlikely to think that that's something you should do to someone else to you know, spoil - ruin their life. So I feel like it would actually help us to hear stories of pleasure, not only because they're, I don't know, erotic and fun to read, but perhaps might even provide a more joyful and healthy attitude to sex in general, right, and kind of mitigate some of that shame. And I don't know, just like the incredible amount of stigma and shame attached to any discussion of sex.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I think a lot of the discussions especially in like sex education, often are about like prevention. And here's the kind of sex to avoid. And like contexts in which sex is bad, and the kind of sex you shouldn't be having. But then, but then they stop there. And then there's no conversation about like, "Okay, but what kind of sex should I be trying to have?" Like, like, I know what to be kind of, like, wary of and like, you know, try and avoid - which is also very, like, victim blamey, as well. But yeah, but then there's no further conversation about like, "Well, what should I be looking for then?" Like, "What does good sex look like? I don't know!"
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. I think that we'd benefit from hearing more about good sex, right. And I also, you know, pleasure is one of the biggest motivations for why people have sex. And yet, we never really acknowledge that in the way that we communicate about it in these official school-y or like, I don't know. Yeah, policy-ish context. It's almost as - nobody's having sex to get an STI and few people are having sex with the express intent of having a child as opposed to most people just having sex because it seems like it might be fun.
Hannah Witton
You think like if you were a young person who was like receiving all of that, like sex education that is like very preventative, you'd like come away from it being like, "Why do people even have sex?"
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. I think it doesn't - I mean, many people aren't so receptive to those types of communications because it isn't - doesn't resonate with you, right. I mean, this thing that seems kind of exciting to you, that you're curious about, is suddenly being presented to you as if it's like this horrible thing that's going to, you know, severely compromise your health and life. And then so either you're going to be like, these people are full of shit. Or you could just kind of, you're gonna come into your first sexual experiences even more afraid than you need to be. Whereas wouldn't it be nice if we just came in well-informed and sort of equipped, adequately equipped, to ensure safety and consent and pleasure? Wouldn't that be nice? Like, that's all I'm asking.
Hannah Witton
Wouldn't that be nice.
Leeza Mangaldas
Wouldn't that be nice!
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Recently, you've been talking a lot about cunnilingus. And why is this something that you're like particularly passionate about talking about at the moment?
Leeza Mangaldas
I mean, I think as an extension of my thematic preoccupations, which tend to be women and pleasure - personally, cunnilingus for me is, is, you know, right up there with the pleasurable things that that one can do with one's partner that has a vulva. I think it's very underrated. And I think, I don't know, I mean, there's different social and cultural attitudes to oral sex, and maybe in some parts of the world, it's very normal. I think in India still, there's like, this curiosity laced with a little disgust, maybe, you know. I think unfortunately, the genitals and particularly the vulva is like coded in disgust to some extent. And so even people who have vulvas might constantly be afraid of how they taste and smell and therefore may be either reluctant to allow for their lover to perform cunnilingus or, you know, preoccupied with "Is everything okay, I feel bad about -." I feel like it can be hard to wholeheartedly enjoy it. And many people struggle to wholeheartedly provide it. And I really think that, like, if we can get over the squeamishness of the body, it is one of the most pleasurable things out there. I'm a big fan. So I like to - I do like talking about it, because I think we, I mean, I think it's - I wish it was more mainstream. Here. I think it's pretty mainstream elsewhere.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's, I feel like it's also, like, so vulnerable as well. Like, I definitely like growing up like definitely felt more comfortable with like penetrative sex than I did with somebody going down on me. Like that was like, it was definitely like an extra barrier. And you're so right about, like, all of those different worries that people might have, that are just like these really awful messages that we've received like about vulvas and about vaginas that they're like gross and disgusting and like, all of that, just like - and especially like when talking about periods as well, like we just like then have these like associations of like down there is like not a sexy place kind of thing. And then if you've got all of these thoughts, like in your head, whilst your partner is in between your legs, how on earth you supposed to relax? To actually be able to feel that pleasure? Like, that's gonna be a really stressful experience.
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. You know, and I do think you're so right, that it's strange that - I mean, let's, um, I'm maybe a little bit heteronormative here, but in the context of like, I don't know, you know, sex between young straight men and straight women. Often, I think that the way that the man is conditioned to think about the vagina is, I mean, it's like this place to fuck, you know what I mean? It's like this place to stick something in and, and do something where that place is just this passive recipient to your quite violent, like, activity, you know, like drill, nail, pound, I don't know, think about the vocabulary around, you know, so.
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, yeah. There's so many words to do with sex that you're just like, ouch.
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly. And like, it doesn't - I mean it doesn't - even though it would it would seem like young straight men are like, you know, hungry for pussy or whatever. When you think about the ways that they talk about or are conditioned to view what needs to be done ther, it's almost like they don't hold it in very high regard. Right? It's almost this like place that they're keen to degrade or, I don't know, sort of, like, use as a sort of vehicle to masturbate into or something. I don't know. I feel like there's definitely this very male gaze-y and kind of heteronormative view of like, what sex - maybe porn has something to do it with as well - what sex should be like for young heterosexual people, where penetration is the ultimate and his pleasure is everything and I don't know. I feel like the vagina doesn't really occupy the space of like love and respect and desire in a really - in an equal way, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't know - if I'm being a little bit inarticulate today, I feel but I think you know what I'm getting at, in terms of just the way pop culture presents the genitals and what is to be done to them. And it's unfortunate that it is so heteronormative and penetration-centric to begin with. But I think even within that there's this kind of like misogyny and violence coded into how it's seen. And I really think that like embracing cunnilingus can kind of undo some of that, you know. It is super intimate.
Leeza Mangaldas
No, that makes sense. And I was just thinking about in terms of like, I don't know, like messages that we receive about vulva sand vaginas. And I'm remembering that scene in the film Superbad, where the girl is like - there's a girl like dancing and like grinding on his leg. And then she was on her period. And so he gets like a blood stain on his trousers, and the like visceral, like, reaction that he has. And like he's a - he's meant to be like a teenage boy. And he's just like, "Ew, ugh." And I remember watching that as a teenager and it being like, I didn't really question it at the time, because being grossed out by periods, and anything to do with vaginas was so normal. Exactly. But then I watched it again, as an adult and I was like, "Oh, that's a shame." That's a shame that that's in there.
Hannah Witton
Exactly. Yeah. It is sad, isn't it? That I mean, most of - I also definitely felt that way about - had internalised the misogynistic disgust around the vulvain its natural state. I mean, you know, you I used to think I had to like, wax my pubic hair before ever getting naked with a man or whatever. I don't do that anymore.
Hannah Witton
You do you.
Leeza Mangaldas
It was a journey, right? Like, you have to be hairless. And, I don't know, odourless, and periodless and dischargeless. And I don't know, like all of these. It's just not acceptable the way it is, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. In its natural, lovely state because bodies - ad here's the thing, like bodies can be weird and gross. But we should kind of like accept that as like all bodies. And isn't that interesting? And fascinating? And not like you're saying, having these like misogynistic kind of connotations attached?
Leeza Mangaldas
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
I'm curious to talk about like your experience, like, specifically as a YouTube sex educator as well, because obviously, like, that's a part of my experience, too. And what has it been like for you making YouTube videos and like talking openly about sex online? And like putting yourself out there? Like, you know, your face, your name, like, "Hey, I'm this person talking about sex?" And then I'm curious, like, is it mostly young women who are watching your videos? Like who's - who's also your audience? And so like, what kinds of like, comments and questions and stuff do you get?
Leeza Mangaldas
So it's definitely mostly young people. I mean, the Indian internet is quite young. Like India as a country, demographically, right now is like overwhelmingly young. So I would say that it's not super - it's not children. And because I'm not trying to talk to children, either and legal age of consent here is 18. And I have no intentions of breaking the law. But I would say my audience is largely 18 to 35 years old. And by and large, that's also the largest demographic on the internet in India. And interestingly, they're from all over the country, actually. And I've started to make content in Hindi as well, which is making it more accessible to more young Indians. But interestingly, I would say that there's slightly more - my gender split is relatively equal, I would say there's slightly more men the content is reaching, even though I am often talking about women's pleasure. And I think that speaks to a few things. One is access. Like, any household if there is only one phone, it likely belongs to a man. So even if other people in the house are using the phone to access the internet, it will be in a man's name, etc.
Hannah Witton
So like the account that's logged in, it would like be coming up in your YouTube analytics as like, this is a man watching. But you never know.
Leeza Mangaldas
You never know who's - yeah, well, partly that, but also partly technology and access and all of that is still quite unequally divided. And men have more access - like in general, there are more Indian men on the internet than Indian women. Internet penetration has not been gender equal. Do you know what I mean? If in a household, somebody has an internet connection, because they're going to work and they can check that email there or whatever it is, women are not yet an equal proportion of the workforce. Not yet - you know what I mean? It's just like, at every level, women have less access to everything so that includes the internet. So that's one of the reasons but I also think that particularly when it comes to information about sex and YouTube being search driven in the sense that often you find YouTube videos when you're looking for some information, right? You do a Google search and hit videos, and you get YouTube videos, not Instagram, or any other platform. So for the most part, you know what I mean? So I feel like men feel more entitled to this information. It's interesting but I think more Indian men are Googling information about women's orgasms than women are Googling themselves because there's so much internalised misogyny and shame and just you just think that sex isn't for you. "This not an arena that I have the agency or like that I should even be curious about." I feel like for the most part, we're still kind of not encouraged to see sex as something that we can willingly and enthusiastically partake in. If that makes sense. Lots of women reach out to me saying they discovered my channel through their boyfriend or husband or brother or cousin, which is also quite interesting. Sorry, you were saying?
Hannah Witton
I was just gonna say, it got me really curious about these men who are finding your content because they're looking for information about like women's orgasms, right? And do you have any insight into like, what is motivating them? Like, is it "I want to learn how to please my partner, and I care about my partner's pleasure and so I want to try and find this information?" Or is there also maybe like this, like, pressure on their masculinity, of like, being a 'good man' means, you know, being able to give a woman sexual pleasure. Again, this is all very, like cis heteronormative but these are a lot of the messages.
Leeza Mangaldas
Yeah, yeah I know. Probably both of those. A little bit of both of those. I do think that, I mean, while the sort of cultural or popcultural or porncentric messaging we can have, we can sort of face around sex is - does not sufficiently prioritise women's pleasure, I do think there are straight men out there who do want to, you know, make sure the women in their lives are having a good time. Even if they don't necessarily succeed in figuring it out, I do think that there are enough who would like to learn, and maybe some of that desire to learn does come from this idea of like, being a man means I have to be able to make her come I don't know. It's unfortunate that that might - that masculinity might be the inspiration, as opposed to genuinely like wanting to please your partner, I don't know. It's hard for me to say because I don't communicate with every single person that watches my content. But I do think also, that like, to a large extent, unfortunately, in India, sex is so stigmatised that for any real person with their name and face talking about sex, like it has the appeal - I mean, maybe some people click on my videos thinking they're gonna stumble on some porn or something. Maybe they're sadly disappointed. Or maybe they're like, "Oh, okay, at least I learned something." But I think that sex also has that kind of - that level of appeal because it's so taboo, that if you see the word orgasm or blow job or something, you're going to be like, "Ooh, what's this?" You know? Because it's not sufficiently talked about. And I, I think that, you know, if you watch 10 seconds of the video, you're gonna realise that it's not - I don't think you're gonna want to masturbate to this. But maybe you -
Hannah Witton
I feel like, I feel like I have a similar experience as well, like, especially like, there are some videos where I can see what search terms like are leading people to that video. And then I can see that they stick around for about 10 seconds, and then they click off. Like, "It wasn't what you expected, was it?"
Leeza Mangaldas
You know, it's funny. I don't know. But I think people, because there's so little sex ed, so little, so little - even talking about an educational way seems very interesting to them. Like, I feel like if I was talking about anything else, you know, climate change or something, they might not have stuck around. But sex is sufficiently interesting already, that even if some person's just lecturing you like a teacher, it's something that you have so little information about that that you're like, "Ooh, okay, okay. I'm gonna listen." And I'm grateful for that.
Hannah Witton
So we had some questions for you from people on Instagram. And somebody asked: who are some Indian sex activists that are pushing boundaries? And I'm curious, do you have any like recommendations of other people doing the good work?
Leeza Mangaldas
That's interesting. There are so many amazing people actually doing work and I think actually Instagram is such a - not everyone's work is online. You know, there's some people doing amazing work and on the ground, in like in villages, in places that have no internet penetration at all. But I think that unfortunately as somebody creating digitally often your whole like - the other activists you could think of are all digital as well, you know. but I think one of the people I really admire is a woman called Paramita Vohra. She has this project called Agents of Ishq - she's actually done work in so many capacities, as an activist, as a filmmaker, with this digital project. She's like very multimedia, very both online and in real life, she - I think she must be like in her 50s. I could be wrong. But she's been like doing work in the arena of sexuality and feminism and and queer rights and representation for so long and was so ahead of her time in many ways. And you should check out her films, check out Agents of Ishq, check out all the stuff Paramita does, it's really really quite wonderful. I also really like - I mean, so coming back to Instagram, there's some people of Indian origin who are based in other parts of the world but who I greatly admire and I think their South Asian culture and sort of pushing back against some of the cultural norms is something they talk about and and it does inform their work. There's Alok, who is a gender non conforming, spoken word creator. You know who Alok is, right?
Hannah Witton
I follow him on Instagram, yeah!
Leeza Mangaldas
Oh my gosh, aren't they incredible. I feel like everything Alok says I just want to just like listen to 10 times on repeat. They're just like so articulate, so profound. Oh, my gosh, I feel like I've really rethought certain attitudes to gender and even sexuality. Just - I've learned so much from Alok. And it's a joy to listen to Alok. Like the way they phrase their ideas is inimitable. And then there is someone whose work is quite interesting is Kali Sudhra. Kali is a performer, an adult performer and sex worker, and has collaborated extensively with Erica Lust. There's so little Indian representation in adult cinema or adult media because it's illegal to produce in India.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I didn't know that.
Leeza Mangaldas
For a lot of people to see Kali in feminist porn, and like, you know, really owning her pleasure. And also - I think Kali does - I could be mistaken, and you should really follow her work - but I think there's a focus on both queer and sort of queer and feminist pleasure kind of being explored in Kali's work. And I think it's really groundbreaking, because - partly because of the legalities and partly because of social stigma, etcetera, etcetera. It is hard for Indians based in India to express themselves in those ways. She's based in Spain.
Hannah Witton
Oh, great. Thanks for those recommendations, we'll make sure that we put links and stuff to all of their work in the shownotes so people can check them out. Based off of our - kind of connected to our cunnilingus conversation, somebody else had a question that said: I tried to give cunnilingus to my girlfriend, but she denies it. How should I explain that I want to give pleasure.
Leeza Mangaldas
That's a tricky one, I'd be curious to hear what your advice would be. Because I think if someone says they don't want to do something then - and even if doing it would give you pleasure - I guess you have to unpack why they don't want to do it. Right. And if it is a personal boundary, and they're just not comfortable doing it, like receiving cunnilingus, or for whatever reason, if they don't feel comfortable in that activity, then I would respect that boundary. But sometimes the reticence or like the reluctance to participate is because they fear you won't enjoy it. I mean, I've been in that position where I'm like, "No, no, you don't have to go down on me" because I'm thinking, this poor guy is gonna have to deal with my disgusting vulva, right. Which was - we have to do this unlearning, which we talked about earlier. So it's good to talk about why they don't want to do it. Right. And if the reason is they just don't want to do it, then respect that. If their reason is that they worry that you might be uncomfortable, then maybe you can reassure them that you would genuinely love to do it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. My thoughts were - yeah, exactly that and also that it's not going to be just one conversation that then it's like, "Okay, I understand you now and you understand me. Okay, now we can do cunnilingus." You know? it might be something that like takes a while for you to kind of like have lots of mini conversations about, because it's not necessarily all going to be solved in like one conversation. There's definitely - like there's potentially a lot more to unpack there. But then also you can take baby steps physically as well. So you're not having to like go from zero to like full on cunnilingus. You can kind of like talk about, "Well, how would you feel if I like kissed your inner thigh? How would you feel if I kissed your mons or like your belly button?" And like, you know, just kind of like working your way up to certain sex acts that maybe people have like different kinds of complicated feelings around. So it's not not feeling like a huge amount of pressure to one, do it in the first place, but then also like the pressure to also enjoy it. Because I think you also have to kind of be open to like, even if you do get to a place where you're like, "Okay, yeah, I want to try this." But there also isn't the pressure there for it to be like the best thing ever.
Leeza Mangaldas
Yes, that's so true. That is so true.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then there are a couple of questions about child free stuff as well. Somebody asked about like, how do you trust your own mind about not wanting kids and not feeling bad about that? And then somebody else said: what to tell your parents when they say "Just wait, someday you'll have children"?
Leeza Mangaldas
Hmm. I mean, I would - see, I don't know what I would say about how do you trust your mind? Because I trust my mind. But I suppose what they're getting at is that what if you regret it? Right? I mean, that's unfortunate, right? That we have this little window within which we can biologically have children, as people with ovaries, a uterus, or whatever it is, and many people too many people that is important to them that their children be their children. To me, that's not important at all. I always think that even if I change my mind, I can adopt a child, you know. And I mean, I suppose there's even legalities around the age of the parent when you're adopting and stuff. But you do have a slightly longer window then. Or, you know, even if you're, for whatever reason unable to get pregnant, that's always an option. Right? So I mean, I don't know, I feel like there's so many things that are tied into this idea of like, why people want to have children, why they want to have only their own children as opposed to adopting a child, why somehow, you know, people's identities can be very wrapped up in whether or not they're able to get pregnant. It can be like, quite a big deal for some people if they find out they're infertile, or, you know, and I can't comment on a lot of that. I feel like it's so personal, and there's no right or wrong, and I don't want to sound judgmental. But I do think that having children is a huge decision.A decision that isn't given as much weight as it ought to, it's just as if it's the natural next step. you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leeza Mangaldas
As opposed to like, I mean, some people have kids, and I think, "Oh my God, I would not even let them babysit my cat." You know? I think it's a huge decision, a huge responsibility, and being a parent is one of the most difficult and all consuming roles that life has to offer to, you know, out there. And I feel like people don't - you know, we go to college, and we do work and we get to do a test even to drive a car. You have to be like 25 in some places to drink alcohol, and you can have a kid, you know, whenever - I mean, they're busy getting you married at like, I don't know, 21 and even younger. So I think that it's something that we don't think about as a responsibility, as a big conscious decision. It's just like, yeah, you know, college, marriage, kids. And I think that isn't - doesn't really - I don't think that that does that role justice. I really don't think it does. And I think that if there's any hesitation - somehow if in your head, you think "Maybe I don't want kids" - you should listen to that voice, right? Because I think it's easier to you know, find a solution if you do want kids at some point than it is to -
Hannah Witton
Undo the kids?
Leeza Mangaldas
Exactly! You can participate in other kids' lives or become a teacher or adopt a pet or something. What are you going to do if you have kids and you don't want them? You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that's like, a huge stigma as well if like that's something that you think.
Leeza Mangaldas
Right? No one can admit that out loud. But I'm sure there are many parents out there who regret having children. It's - I mean, they've said so as well, in private, some people will say that, right? And that's okay. We have to allow for that experience so more of us can become parents consciously as opposed to having that role thrust upon us by society or our own parents, etc, etc. You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, for sure. Well, Leeza, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you about all of these different topics. Where can people find you and all of your projects online?
Leeza Mangaldas
Thank you so much. This has been so much fun, Hannah! My handle on Instagram is @meezamangaldas. And that's L E E Z A M A N G A L D A S. And really you can find me if you search my name on YouTube, it's the same. And I have a podcast on Spotify, itt's called A Sex Podcast. Yeah, basically my name will bring you to my content because it's a slightly like unusually spelled name.
Hannah Witton
Awesome. Well, thank you so much again. And thank you all for listening. Bye.
Leeza Mangaldas
Thank you. Bye