Trans Sexual Health Care & Menstruation with Kenny Ethan Jones | Transcript
CW: transphobia, mention of suicidal ideation
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton.
This week I am joined by the brilliant Kenny Ethan Jones. Kenny is a writer, advocate and content creator. He's best known for making history by being the first trans man to front period campaign and his advocacy focuses on all things trans, especially when it comes to menstruation, trans health care, body politics and language. I really wanted to get Kenny on the podcast to share all his first-hand experiences of navigating healthcare, sexual health services and menstruation as a trans man, and how to make it all more inclusive and accessible. We spoke about Kenny's own journey, how he became a trans advocate, and how modelling changed his life. Kenny talked about some of the books that helped influence his own growth into becoming an activist. And we spoke about how menstruating and having periods has been the single hardest thing to deal with for him as a trans man. Kenny spoke about the misinformation that's out there about going on testosterone and how it impacts your fertility as a trans man, and why sexual health and gender affirming services need to better inform people transitioning so they can take the care and action needed to look after their sexual and reproductive health.
Hannah Witton
But of course, Kenny also spoke about positive experiences he's had in sexual health clinics, especially 56 Dean Street in London. We spoke about the massive increase in people seeking gender affirming services in the UK, and Kenny spoke about the need for much more funding and supporting of these crucial services. Kenny also challenged a lot of the myths around gender affirming services for young people and spoke about the double standards that exist for trans youth in comparison to cis people seeking similar care for other reasons. Kenny shared the importance of protecting your mental health as a trans person and avoiding toxic news. He also spoke about his own journey with masculinity and learning to step more into his authentic self rather than trying to overcompensate to meet society's concept of being a man. I absolutely loved talking to Kenny and especially hearing him describe such positivity and joy after transitioning and being part of the queer community.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. Don't forget, we also have transcripts up there. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify - it is really appreciated. And without further ado, here is my chat with the brilliant Kenny Ethan Jones.
Hi, Kenny. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?
Kenny Ethan Jones
I'm doing really well. I had a fantastic weekend in Brighton.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, just - you know, when you're just like I've had enough of London. I need to leave. I just, yeah, literally I think I booked my tickets at like 2pm and I was in Brighton by six.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Very dramatic. Very much like I need to run away.
Hannah Witton
I need to see the sea!
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, literally it's the first thing I did. I got there as it was like the sunset. And it was just incredible. I made so many friends. So I'm still like living that high right now.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay, I love that.
Kenny Ethan Jones
How are you?
Hannah Witton
Well, I also got out of London on the weekend up to the countryside in Yorkshire to see my grandparents, which was really lovely.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Cute.
Hannah Witton
And so we were just saying before we started recording that we're surprised that we've never met in person before because we both like work in this sexual health space and know a lot of the same people in this space as well. But COVID times probably stopped that from ever happening
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, I know. I'm sure sometime soon.
Hannah Witton
Sometime soon, indeed. But I guess I wanted just to start with like, how did you get into this whole sexual health advocacy? Like trans rights, trans representation space? Like how did that all happen for you?
Kenny Ethan Jones
It was completely by accident. So kind of before this career now I used to trade stocks and currencies. Very different career.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness. Didn't know that.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, no, it's not something I really talk about. Yeah, but completely separate space. But essentially, I had quite a low level of self esteem and confidence at that time in my life. And my sister basically was like, "Why don't you join this modelling agency?" And I was like, well, models seem confident and seem like they have a great time and go on holidays and trips. And yeah -
Kenny Ethan Jones
And I was like, "Oh my god, yeah." And so I applied for this agency. They approved me and I was like, okay, cool. Like I'm officially a model. And essentially, you know, I got offered a few smaller campaigns that was giving me a taste of like advocacy essentially. So it was like Pride campaigns and things like that. And I just loved it so much more than the generic modelling. And just wanted more of it. And one day I woke up to an email from my management. And the headline was something along the lines of like a period campaign. And my initial thought was, they've sent this to the wrong person. Clearly they've sent this to the wrong person. And then they said, "No, you know, it's a campaign talking about gender inclusivity, breaking down barriers, and just really wanting to change the industry to include trans and non binary people." And my first thought was, I don't know if the world is ready for this kind of conversation.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, the facade.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, cuz this was a while ago. It was like 2018.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Exactly. Yeah, it wasn't -
Hannah Witton
The world still doesn't seem ready for it. Or at least some pockets of the world. Just like, "No, it's, women. Women only." I'm just like, "Shut up."
Kenny Ethan Jones
Nobody cares! So just seen the campaign and just changed my life overnight, essentially. It was completely wild. It was like 200 pieces of press, like 90 national stories, and, you know, lots of social media following. And I think at that time -
Hannah Witton
Because it was the first period campaign - because it because it was for period products, wasn't it? Yeah. And it was the first one of its kind that included a trans man. Was there a non binary person as well, or -
Kenny Ethan Jones
No, I was the only trans person. But it was fantastic.
Hannah Witton
And you kind of definitely see a lot more of that, or, like, talk about it now. But yeah, it was the first.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, it was weird. Like, there was nothing. Even when I kind of like looked around on the internet, it was small, very, very small start-up brands that, you know, just, it wasn't as big as this was going to be, essentially. And it just sparked a lot of conversation, you know, and I started to realise how needed my voice was in that space. And I had a decision at that point: do I stay what I'm doing now with the trading? Or do I move on to being an advocate? But I didn't know if I was ready for that. Cuz I didn't know much. You know, I just knew about me and wanted to talk about my truth. And hopefully people learned from that. But yeah, I didn't know how to be quote unquote, "an advocate" or an activist in any way. So I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing but -
Hannah Witton
Because you'd like been thrust into the limelight, in the, like, role as a model. And then you're being asked to also, like, become a spokesperson as well.
Kenny Ethan Jones
To talk about trans rights. And I'm like, "I don't, I'm not entirely sure about all of this." And, you know, just feeling the pressure and wanting to do the right thing and say the right thing and do right by my community. And yeah, I chose this, and I haven't looked back ever since.
Hannah Witton
So how has that like process been from then until now? Because like, you know, you're someone who like immediately comes to mind when being like, "Oh, who do we want to get on the podcast to talk about, like, trans rights and menstruation and things like that." So like, how, how do you get from being like, "Wait, do I want to do this" to being like, Kenny is the guy we want?
Kenny Ethan Jones
I think some of it's obviously just like luck, and being in the right place at the right time and a lot of campaigns, but I would be lying if I said I hadn't had to essentially do a lot of research and kind of like self-work as well and unpacking my own kind of experiences and trauma and it's been a lot. I've been reading a lot. I don't think I've ever read more in my life.
Hannah Witton
What's some of your favourite books? What do you have to recommend to us?
Kenny Ethan Jones
Okay, my favourite: Queer Sex, Juno Roche, is probably one of my favourite ones. I just - I've never seen or read a book that just encapsulates a trans like experience when it comes to like your relationship with your body and other people. So -
Hannah Witton
I've not even heard of that one. So gonna have to add it to the endless list.
Kenny Ethan Jones
It's incredible. Honestly, I read it - just page turner, page turner. But that's the one that -
Hannah Witton
People don't often say that about non-fiction as well.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, no, it can - they can get a bit - not boring, but they do drag on sometimes, but yeah, there's lots of incredible writers out there. I mean, I've started Travis's book, Travis Alabanza's book, at the moment, which is incredible. And then you've got Shon Fey, Transgender Issue, which is just mindblowing. I'm in awe of how well she wrote that book it's just incredible. So those are my suggestions.
Hannah Witton
Excellent. Excellent. All ones that are on my TBR already, like the Shon Fey's book. I'm just like, I need to get round to reading this at some point. Oh my goodness.
Kenny Ethan Jones
It's incredible. Honestly, I just couldn't. She's just so intelligent. My mind was blown. Yeah, it's an incredible book. Incredible book.
Hannah Witton
Love that. Okay, so speaking like about menstruation and stuff then like, I mean, you've probably told this story many times, but what was that like for you kind of as a teenager experiencing having periods but then also coming to understand your own gender and that whole process? And like what's your relationship like with menstruation now?
Kenny Ethan Jones
So periods were like the single-handed thing that just made my existence like unbearable, essentially, because there was such a conflict of well, society tells you that you must be a woman to experience a period. And I'm like, "Well, I'm no a woman. So this isn't making sense to me." So I think that kind of that was very difficult to kind of overcome, firstly, and then secondly, just how it made me feel, in terms of actually physically having periods was not fun. I didn't like the process of bleeding. And being able to take care of myself. There was no education at that time as well, that used like gender inclusive language. So anytime I wanted to kind of like research on essentially how to take care of myself while having a period, everything was she, she, she, and that made me feel so much more disconnected from myself. And so it just kind of seemed like a constant challenge. And even when it came to buying period products, essentially, it was its own hurdle, because -
Hannah Witton
"Feminine hygiene."
Kenny Ethan Jones
All of that everywhere. And it just - like it felt like a form of self outing, when I would buy period products.
Hannah Witton
Oh right, yeah, yeah.
Kenny Ethan Jones
So that was another thing that I kind of like had to overcome to the point where I would ask my sister, would she get them for me, or would try to use online services and have to pay a silly amount for a delivery fee because I'd rather do that than physically walk into a shop, and, you know, like, go into the tiller line and be like, "Oh, they're for my girlfriend." I didn't have no girlfriend.
Hannah Witton
People might have assumed that. But obviously, like in your head, you're thinking like, "Oh my goodness, I'm outing myself here." Yeah.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Exactly. So it was kind of like me, I don't know, trying to take the attention off me, essentially. Because I think at that point, when I used to go to the tills - and I wasn't so cis-passing back then - I think they would look at me and kind of question my gender. And I just wanted to be like, "No, it's not for me." So that they can kind of like, move away from that. So yeah, it was incredibly difficult. It just, I just didn't feel like me. I absolutely hated them. And when I did the period campaign, also, it was like, "Why would I do this?" Because I absolutely hated having periods. And in that moment, it was kind of like, well, it makes sense to do it. Because I wanted to overcome that. Like, I just, I felt like, it was the most kind of traumatic thing that has happened in terms of causing me to disconnect from myself, and I wanted a better relationship with my period. And so doing that campaign, and being able to have so many like conversations now and like, talk to other trans guys that are like, "Kenny, like, you made me feel so much better about having mine," and it just feels like I've had like a real 180 when it comes to periods, because yeah, going from completely hating them, feeling so disconnected to now feeling more connected with people because I have those conversations is incredible. Like even, you know, talking to my sister and like, sometimes laughing over our similar life experiences and being like we both fucking get our periods. And, yeah, so now in terms of where I'm at, I don't have a period in of itself in terms of bleeding but my body still kind of goes through its own cycle. So you know, as we move on in this conversation, like sometimes having penetrational sex can be painful at the time of the month that my period is meant to be. Still get my like cramping, my skin changes. So there's still an enzyme or cycle that's going on. But yeah, no bleeding.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Because I definitely get that when I'm on certain birth control as well.
Kenny Ethan Jones
So yeah, it's the same kind of thing, I would say. I know but I was just like, surely testosterone is meant to stop this. So that was kind of a disappointment for me. Because I thought was in the clear, and apparently, no, it doesn't work like that.
Hannah Witton
What are some other things that you kind of like expected from going on and starting testosterone that didn't happen? Or things that you weren't expecting that like did happen?
Kenny Ethan Jones
I definitely didn't think I'd have as much facial hair as I have. Just because genetically, I just didn't like - when it comes to my siblings, like my brothers, I'm more hairier than they are.
Hannah Witton
Wow. They should get on the testosterone.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Right, I know, right?
Hannah Witton
If that's what they want. Yeah.
Kenny Ethan Jones
So I think that was kind of the weird thing. How different testosterones made different changes on my body. So I've been through two different - sorry, three different types of testosterone. So Nibido is an injection, which is more of a long term testosterone, which I felt like very much changed how my body fat distributed more. And then Sustenon, which is more like an entry kind of level to testosterone, it's usually kind of like the first suggested thing that you have - did wonders for my voice. Just made my tone really deep. And now I take a gel-based testosterone which I apply every day to the skin.
Hannah Witton
Ooh! Like in the arm?
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, literally on your arm. It just soaks into your bloodstream. It's so convenient.
Hannah Witton
Wow. Modern medicine!
Kenny Ethan Jones
And I hated needles. So I was so ready to move away from the injectables.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Yeah.
Kenny Ethan Jones
But yeah, I think yeah, so different testosterones working differently on your body was quite an interesting one. And I know this - I don't know if this is silly, but essentially how confident I feel now. I didn't think I would ever be able to achieve that. And a lot of that is definitely due to the changes that testosterone has made to my body.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I guess it's that feeling more connected to your body and like, being yourself as well.
Kenny Ethan Jones
It's - yeah, so it's been incredible. I've been on testosterone now for - it's either 10 or 11 years. So it's been a long time. Yeah. So happy it happened.
Hannah Witton
So - yeah! Me too! Happy for you. On that: like, how did you find navigating the NHS - if it was the NHS route that you went down - but just like health care in general, as a trans person trying to access, like, gender affirming services?
Kenny Ethan Jones
I think I got quite lucky if I'm honest. Because when I started to transition - I'm 28. now - I was 11. When I -
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Kenny Ethan Jones
So it's a long time ago. So the waiting list that you hear about at the moment, which is incredibly long, wasn't what I had to experience. But even so the services then was really slow. I think the hardest part for me at that time of transitioning was the fact that, at times, they made me feel like a guinea pig.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Kenny Ethan Jones
And that was the difficulty. Like I remember, when I first started taking testosterone, they were like, "You know, we're gonna have a lot of trainee doctors come in." And I was just thinking, "Oh, it's just going to be one, you know, assisting kind of doctor" and it wasn't that. It was a roomful of nine people.
Hannah Witton
The entire medical school is here to see this little trans kid.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, I just was like, "I don't really understand what's happening." And it made my mum feel very uncomfortable. And, you know, at that time, I wanted privacy, really. And I also understood that, you know, they were trying to develop the kind of healthcare like services, and maybe that was a large part of it. So I was just like, well, you know, "I want everybody to have a better experience." So - I went through the NHS.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. You never know, some of those nine people who were in that room maybe went on to help lots more other trans kids. But yeah, it's - that's a shame that you've - you felt that way.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah. But, yeah. Do you know what the thing is? I wouldn't change it. Like it happened. It was necessary. I definitely think that in those situations, you know, it would have helped the healthcare system for trans people. So no regrets on my side. I just think, yeah, it wasn't what I needed at the time. But in terms of like navigating the NHS and things like that, there was still a two year wait for top surgery, which is nothing in comparison to what it is now. It's, I think, even -
Hannah Witton
Is that because of like cuts, and there's less clinics, and there's less like availability for like things like top surgery? Or is it because like, we're having more conversations about gender and so a lot more people are realising that they are trans and wanting that? Or like a mixture of both? What's your like opinion on that? I guess.
Hannah Witton
The second one.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Kenny Ethan Jones
It's - there's been a rise in numbers. I remember when I went to the GIC, I think there was 93 patients, and I was one of them. And now right now, they're kind of accepting over the 2000 mark. So it's a massive increase. And, you know, the economy at the moment is in the bin. And so trying to find the money to obviously help those services is practically impossible, especially given like, lots of people don't want to help trans people, or our services that help us get gender affirming treatment. And so, yeah, I think it's a mixture of things, like, yeah, just the waiting list times are increasing. And it's just, it's just feeling like quite a dire situation. And, you know, I'm hopeful that there are going to be - you know, NHS have basically kind of made a lot of like, small pilot programmes, and it seems to be getting better. It's just - it's, yeah, there's a lot to sort out and essentially the bottom line, the problem is, more money and time and having access to more doctors that understand, you know, gender and things like that. So there's a lot of different aspects, I would say, but it's a fixable problem. It's a fixable problem.
Kenny Ethan Jones
With more money!
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, someone just give us a lot of money and hopefully that will just solve it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just write a cheque!
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, just someone send a big cheque! But yeah.
Hannah Witton
Excellent. Come on, Liz Truss. I mean, I don't see that happening anytime soon unfortunately.
Kenny Ethan Jones
No. No.
Hannah Witton
I didn't realise that you like started your transition so young and I feel like there's so much kind of conversation or 'heated debate' - although there shouldn't be - about like, you know, kids and teenagers and gender, especially around like the use of puberty blockers. Did you start on puberty blockers then?
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yes, so yeah, I was 17 so they made me take puberty blockers from 17 to 18, and then I turned 18 and I moved on to testosterone. So but yeah, there's a lot of conversation and most of it's just misinformation. You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Kids aren't transitioning. Trust me, with these waiting times is physically impossible to be happening. On that basis alone.
Hannah Witton
Even as an adult.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, like, you know, there's people out here waiting like five to eight years for access to these treatments. It's not as -
Hannah Witton
And by then, actually what has happened is their body has gone through many irreversible changes.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
It's not the puberty blockers that are making their bodies do that.
Kenny Ethan Jones
It's yeah - there's a lot of nonsense out there. And, you know, puberty blockers are, you know, as far as I'm concerned and the research I've done have been - they're safe, like, and also, the thing is, puberty blockers have only become an issue when you talk about it in reference to trans people and using it as like a affirming health care.
Hannah Witton
Yes, because young cis kids have been using them for years. It's the same thing with HRT, and like, well, it's being used for like, cis women and menopause, right? For eons!
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah. So it's only ever becomes a problem when trans people decide to use it to benefit our lives and help us. But when cis people wanna use it -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like "Ooh, it's not safe."
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, you weren't shouting about that when cis people were using it, so why are you now saying it?
Hannah Witton
When when eight year old little Cassie here got her period too early and, you know -
Kenny Ethan Jones
You was happy to sign off on, you know, hormone blockers at that time. But the second that a trans person wants to use it to maybe buy some time to, you know, figure out who they are - or maybe that's just kind of like the waiting time that's necessary before they transition on to testosterone or oestrogen - it's such a large issue. So yeah, I feel like it's, you know, it's not right. Clearly.
Hannah Witton
Clearly.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, but hopefully, again, that's something that will change over time. And I feel like that a lot of what my work is about: kind of just dispelling this misinformation and saying, "No, actually, all of these things are classified as very safe when we're talking about using them on cis bodies, but it becomes an issue when we're talking about on trans bodies." And, you know, sometimes just sending links, you know, like, you know, there's a lot of cis people I know who are angry when they find that this information. They're like - you know, they've projected it as like you're 12 and you take testosterone. I'm like, "Babes. That is not happening. But trust me, it's not happening, right?" I think, yeah. It's breaking down that misinformation, sorry, and yeah, people just realising what's actually going on versus this kind of hysteria, that right wing media is trying to build, essentially in order for us to have less access to the care that we need. That's essential. Like, it's life changing treatments. I can't - I can't begin to explain.
Hannah Witton
Lifesaving treatment as well.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, it's, you know, if I'm honest, I don't know if I would be here, if it wasn't for the kind of access to gender affirming care that I've had, like, it's, it's very much that so. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What does that impact of, you know, all of those waiting lists, and that time and then also a lot of the resistance, like you said, from the right wing media and stuff, like have - that impact on the mental health of trans people who are in that system and trying to navigate it and get access to the treatment that they need?
Kenny Ethan Jones
The best way to describe it, is it - it just feels heavy. It's something that you feel like you wake up with, you go to sleep with, you carry it all day every day, because it's just like, you're constantly attacked. I can't explain to you the amount of times that I've had conversations with trans people, or their parents, where they're like, "I'm worried about my child because of the future of this country when it comes to trans rights and constant pushback with rights and you know, GRA not turning out how we wanted it to be and, you know, conversion therapy ban not including trans people." All of these things, where it's like, we're clearly being seen as second class citizens and -
Hannah Witton
And just being kicked whilst you're down, constantly.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, so it's, it's hard and you know, kind of preserving your mental health. Like, for me, I don't look at the news. I know I probably should for my work, but unless, like it comes to the top of my attention, I'm not paying attention to it.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough.
Kenny Ethan Jones
I'm not doing it because what it does to my mental health to kind of consistently be bombarded and you know, when you think about these large kind of organisations - I think it's Daily Mail, although I don't want to shout them out - like posted an article about trans lives, like every day. I think it was last year or the year before. And it's like, we're 1% of the population!
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's honestly like, they're just obsessed.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, basically, I know.
Hannah Witton
Like, in a really sad way. But then I want to laugh at them, like all of these tabloids, and all these newspapers that are constantly talking about trans people in a really negative way. But then also, it's having like real effects on trans people. So it's not funny, but also I'm just like, why are you so obsessed with this community of people who don't give two fucks about you?
Kenny Ethan Jones
And it really doesn't like - it doesn't affect you like that. And it's, it's yeah, it's just a lot of hysteria. And I think it's really hard for trans people to kind of navigate that and you know, if there are any trans people listening, I think you just have to do what you think is right for you. You know, sometimes for me, that is, given who I am, sometimes I meet people, and instantly they want to go into a conversation about trans stuff. And it's like, no. Put up a boundary and be like, "I don't want to talk about this right now." And especially like, I know, a lot of trans people who aren't advocates, but because they're trans, they want to have these conversations and be like, "I seen this in the newspaper." And it's like, no, you have to kind of like put up that boundary and say, "I need to preserve my mental health and wellbeing" and sometimes it means not being involved in those conversations and not paying attention to certain press, not getting into heated debates with like friends or, you know, quote unquote "friends" who - do you know, like, I think you just have to do the right thing by you. And it's yeah, it's difficult and - just put as much focus as you can towards joy, and things that make you feel good. And hope that that balances out all the negativity around you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. One of the ways that can kind of help with a lot of what you're saying about kind of dispelling all this misinformation and these myths around trans people, and also like, the treatment and stuff like that - is treatment, even the right word? - services.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But one of the best ways is through education. And so I'm curious what you think, like, sex education that approaches gender and gender identity in a really thoughtful and accurate way - what does that kind of look like to you?
Kenny Ethan Jones
It's hard because I never had an education around sex. So I left school quite young and, yeah, I just never never got to kind of go down that route. Also, I went to a Catholic all girls school. So -
Hannah Witton
Ooh, lovely.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, that wasn't happening, regardless had I stayed at that school.
Hannah Witton
Bet they loved you.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, exactly. So that never happened for me. And I remember - this is gonna sound bizarre, but I'll never forget it. The first time, you know, kind of understood sexual health and was being more active sexually, you know, knowing that I need to get tested at some point, how do I go about doing that? So I went to my GP and said, "Hey, I need a sexual health check." And the doctor didn't know what to do. So they just offered me both tests, in terms of male and female. And at that point, I went, "Right, so you don't know what you're doing. I don't know what I'm doing. This is essentially gonna be a mess."
Hannah Witton
That's such a shame because you like, you refer to the experts to be like, "Some on, you tell me what I need to be doing here."
Kenny Ethan Jones
Exactly. And I had no clue what was going on, it was more difficult because when earlier on in my life, I was straight. So I was only attracted to women. And then I became a like, I'd always been attracted to men. But I just started to now start to date men. And so obviously, how I had to take care of myself sexually as well changed in a massive way, in terms of like sex and having - being able to get pregnant and all of these different things and like, and it was lots of things that I just really didn't understand. And kind of like resorted - again, it's kind of like going back to the conversation around periods - very binary cis versions of education and having to read things based on women's bodies and kind of make sense for it in my own life. Because at the time, there wasn't anything that was specifically out there for trans, non binary or genderfluid people. And so it just kind of felt like an absolute mess to begin with. And fortunately, at the moment, there's a clinic - it's called 56 Dean Street that specifically offers -
Hannah Witton
Oh, yes! I've got their card.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah. Love that for you.
Hannah Witton
Every Londoner needs to take a visit at some point.
Kenny Ethan Jones
It's such a good clinic. They're just wonderful but -
Hannah Witton
It's a tourist destination for all you sexual health nerds.
Kenny Ethan Jones
They're just so great, aren't they? But on Wednesday, they offer a specific clinic just for trans people between hours of 4:30 to 7pm.
Hannah Witton
Oh, do they?
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
There you go.
Kenny Ethan Jones
And majority of the staff are trans themselves or non binary. And you go in there, and I felt like my life had been changed.
Hannah Witton
Oh I love that.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Because they just get it you know, you know, there's so much more - I think the kind of conversations and the way that they talk to you about things is just incredibly different. Because, you know, you walk into there and they'll be like - you have conversations are you sleeping with cis men? Are you sleeping with cis women, and they you know how to kind of like basically cater for your sexual health.
Hannah Witton
And also, it's getting the correct information so that they can give you the right tests, and also like assess your risk properly.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Exactly. So it's just - that for me from going from a GP that didn't really understand it, to go into there was life changing. I just felt so much more in control of my sexual health. And I think one of the bigger issues was when I started transitioning, and I first started taking testosterone, I was told that I couldn't become pregnant.
Hannah Witton
Ah. Well.
Kenny Ethan Jones
And that's a lie.
Hannah Witton
It is a lie.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, it's a very small, small chance. But nevertheless, it's a possibility. And so that changed how I decided to take care of myself sexually in terms of protection because of - my concern was like, "Oh, I can't become pregnant, then I don't have to necessarily worry about certain things." And that wasn't the case. So it's just like, imagine if I had become pregnant.
Hannah Witton
Imagine.
Kenny Ethan Jones
That would have been traumatising for me if I'm honest. It's not something I want.
Hannah Witton
Also, as someone who's recently been pregnant and had a baby, like, it - all of the information out there is so gendered. Like you were saying like when you were trying to access like help when it came to periods. It's all she, her, mother.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Like, pregnant woman. In a way that like even though I'm a cis woman and very much identify with my womanhood - I don't know what - I don't know if it's to do with like me being a sex educator and kind of like, like, I don't know, being more exposed to that world, that gender diverse world, but I found it really uncomfortable reading it all. And I was like, "Why am I having a reaction like this? Where it just makes me feel ick?"
Kenny Ethan Jones
No, I feel you. And I think one of the things - a part of like, my kind of career now sometimes is consultancy, and when we were looking specifically at apps, a lot of the apps around like tracking cycle was to do with wanting to become pregnant, and quote unquote "motherhood". And so lots of that. And I feel like yeah, that's a reflection sometimes of a lot of the services out there. It's very much like, feminine, and it's not so much pink anymore. Like, I feel like that's stopped. But, you know, it's still very much like, kind of going on that route of just, yeah, of highly gendered, highly feminine. And that doesn't suit everybody. Regardless if you're trans or not, that's not for everybody. And I think, yeah, kind of seeing things become - often, more times than not, when you do things to benefit trans people it benefits cis people. So when you start to kind of like de-genderize these things, it actually makes the services better for women who don't necessarily feel comfortable with that hyper-feminine aspect of all of these kinds of services or products anyways. So it's just better for everybody when you're inclusive, and you think about everybody.
Hannah Witton
Exactly. Exactly.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah. It should be that simple, right? But some people are not seeming to get it.
Hannah Witton
Nice and easy.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
We've got a whole bunch of questions from folks on Instagram and our patrons that I want to pose to you. Somebody asked: how did you figure out which parts of masculinity worked for you? And which didn't? Or don't?
Kenny Ethan Jones
That's such a good question. I'll be honest, I think when I was younger, I was very toxic masculine. Yeah, I'll be honest, because -
Hannah Witton
You're just like the pendulum swung like real far.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Literally. It was like, "Right, I'm transitioning. Take me all the way."
Hannah Witton
"I am a man."
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah. And I didn't necessarily realise in the beginning, how bad all of those things were. And then slowly as life continued, it just didn't - it didn't feel like me. And so I think - yeah, I think the best thing that I kind of did and how I decided what parts of masculinity to keep was that actually I started to become more feminine. And I started to figure out what I liked from that. And then I started to realise what traits were bad in masculinity that I didn't associate with. And then slowly just kind of became - I don't really see it as femininity or masculinity anymore. I see it as Kenny.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just like the Kenny Pick & Mix.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, literally, I love that. Pick & Mix! Yeah. So I think sometimes it's just, like, take out kind of the gender aspect and just be like, do I like myself? You know, "Does this makes me feel nice?" And even now, I'm kind of going through a transition with like my style and leaning into more feminine clothing, and I'm really enjoying it. And so yeah, sometimes I think it's just about experimenting. But yeah, just more - for me, it was more like, do I like who I am? Do I like how I treat others? And are my behaviours hurting anybody? And that was kind of the framework that I followed. I would say, I've been on a journey with that for at least the last like four years. And now I'm in a position where I feel like I've unpacked a lot of what I felt like I needed to be when I started to transition to validate my transition.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, kind of like that over compensating to prove - yeah.
Kenny Ethan Jones
To like, quote unquote, "validate" my gender, and yeah, it wasn't - I understand completely why I was like that, and I think it happens for a lot of trans people. I think it's very normal to kind of start there. But if you don't like who you are, then what does any of this matter? So for me, just picking just kind of, yeah, just focusing on different things and trying different things and knowing that that isn't for you and knowing that that is for you. And just following that is would be my advice.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I feel like I've definitely heard a lot of stories from trans people who like say, they didn't like - like, pre-transitioning or pre like feeling like themselves in their body and in their agenda - like wouldn't touch makeup, or wouldn't touch, like, a certain kind of clothing. And then like once they felt more, like you said, like, they liked themselves or like felt more authentic in themselves, then it's like, oh, okay, like, there's this whole, like, array of things that I can choose from in terms of like, my personality and aesthetic and feeling a lot more comfortable to be able to do that exploration.
Kenny Ethan Jones
100%. It's so wonderful. It's so weird, because you don't - you know it should come. And then at one point, you're just like, "Okay, I can try this. And this doesn't feel uncomfortable anymore." I think that's what it is in the beginning. It's like you're trying to put on society's expectations of how you think you should be acting as a person. And then you go, "Fuck this, I just want to be me." And you just start to grab things that you kind of, probably at one point in your life had already been gravitating towards, but was afraid to because of how other people might have judged you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like you resisted it.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah. You always knew I was there, you know what I mean, like, "Do I really want to do that? Can I?" And you just get to a point you're just like, fuck this.
Kenny Ethan Jones
"That's scary!"
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, you come to a point where - you know, and that only comes that comes with time. It takes a lot of time sometimes, and that's fine. But I think yeah, just every so often, leaning into it a little bit more is the best way to go.
Hannah Witton
And kind of in a similar vein: what has been your favourite thing about your trans journey? Love some trans joy/positivity.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Oh, my favourite. I think it's just being fully encapsulated by queerness. Because I think that when I first started to transition, I had a lot of cis straight friends. And they're wonderful. And they're great people, and we're still friends now. But there's something so powerful, and special about queerness. And just this kind of, like, freedom that we've been able to give to ourselves. And I don't - without that, I just don't think I would be me, I don't think I would be as authentic in myself, I don't feel like I would feel this free. And so transitioning into that world and just yeah, feeling, like, special. I don't know, it's just such a weird world in like the queer community that is just like everyone is literally just themselves and so positive. And like, even in Brighton, the whole time, I was literally just around queer people. And the kind of level of conversations that you have with people - like you feel like you're touching people's souls.
Hannah Witton
Aw.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah. And it's just so wonderful. So I think, yeah, me connecting with more queer people and being able to have deeper conversations about who I am in life has made me feel more connected to life. And I don't necessarily feel like I would have found that in the same way being in just like cis het spaces, essentially. So I think that for me has been life changing.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Somebody asked: what are examples of when healthcare has gone well? What did they do?
Kenny Ethan Jones
I think going back to the conversation earlier about the clinic.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, Dean Street.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, Dean Street, and just making it so normal, casual, like "Okay, cool. You sleeping with cis men, cis women? How are you having sex? How many partners have you slept with? Do you know their status?" That was just really like -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. My favourite thing is when you're asking like, deeply personal questions about the kind of sex you're having, but like, just completely, like, deadpan professional, like, there's no hesitation. I love it.
Kenny Ethan Jones
No, this was so lovely. It was just - just there. And I think as well recently, as well, which has been surprising - surprisingly, that has happened but really nice. Like, I've been having a few problems with, like my period pains and things like that. And essentially, I think I have endometriosis. Which is very common.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Like one in ten?
Kenny Ethan Jones
So I've been speaking to my GP - yeah, I think it's probably something along those lines, but it's quite common. And, you know, speaking to my GP about it, if I'd had this conversation maybe even five years ago, they just wouldn't get it like at all. But, you know, didn't even kind of answer the phone and say that I was trans just said, "Listen, I'm having all of these kinds of pains. I do think have endometriosis. Can we set up a scan?" And them like, "Okay, when was your last period, like when you had a full blown period? When was the last time that you had these ones that you call internal cycles?" And me just being like, "Wow, okay. Yeah. Like, this is just so casual." Because I think the issue is for a lot of trans people, it's the constant coming out and explaining of your identity. Is the issue. It's that. So when you get to a space in which it's just normal, and it's just okay, cool, and you don't have to explain yourself. That's when you just - that's just where you want to be. That's the kind of health experience that you want. So I think any service that gives me that experience where it's just very normal. I love it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Kenny Ethan Jones
I love it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Just like they get it. You don't have to explain yourself. They're just like, "Yep. Yep. Cool."
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, and even if you do, because there's a special circumstances or whatever else, it's very much like, "Okay, moving on." Like, it's not - it's not this big thing. It's not a hurdle in the conversation. It doesn't cause this like friction or tension. And you just feel -
Hannah Witton
Like, "Ooh, I don't know how to deal with this so, I'm going to refer you". Or -
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, just things like that. It's just - yeah, whenever it's smooth sailing. Nothing is a big deal. And I just, I just feel, you know, appreciated in my identity as well. And just kind of like respected and affirmed as well, I think is important. So, but I also think that's - yeah, go into the right places to have those experiences and knowing that they deal with trans patients, essentially.
Hannah Witton
And this last question, I think, is a great one. Because like, you were saying, at the beginning, you do lots of activism and advocacy work, but you don't have to have a big platform in order to do that. And so this person has asked: any advice on how to approach my uni about why they need to put menstrual bins in the men's bathrooms?
Kenny Ethan Jones
Oh my God, I love this, by the way. Cuz yeah, necessary. For me, if I was this person - you know, kind of like you would petition anything: write into whoever high up who can change that, and, you know, getting people on board in schools or whatever and realising - I think you've got to make them realise what the need is there for. Like, what the kind of problem is. So for instance, for me, you know, when I had a period, if the bin's not in the bathroom, I'm carrying around a period pad all day, you know. Or I'm having to walk into a women's bathroom to put it in that bin, which in of itself is not the best thing to do. But I don't want to be walking around with a bloody period pad all day. And so I think -
Hannah Witton
No one wants that!
Kenny Ethan Jones
No, exactly. So I think kind of like explaining that this isn't - I think a lot of people see sometimes trans issues as just being sensitive and it's not important, and it's not - you know, so I think you have to explain that it's a need. And like, how much of a difference it's going to make.
Hannah Witton
Like, the practical need, like health need, like, hygiene need.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, you know what I mean? So I think, yeah, approaching it in that way, and making them understand and see, like, this is necessary. This isn't just, like, a nice thing to have. This is an essential item that trans people need access to. Yeah, and like, you know, kind of going through people like myself, who talk about that can - I write articles on these things all the time. And so like, maybe taking some quotes from that and presenting it, and maybe even finding examples in other schools, colleges, unis that have made that change and how it's made the students feel as well. Because you can use that as evidence to well look at the changes that it's made. And also kind of making it seem like it's in their best interest. You know, like you, you're meant to be, I don't know, you're inclusive and all of these things then do stuff that are inclusive. Like, show trans people you care.
Hannah Witton
And threaten them if they say no, you'll take it to Twitter,
Kenny Ethan Jones
Oh my God. I mean, I would never go on Twitter but if you have the heart to make it onto it and go there, knock yourself out.
Hannah Witton
Twitter is a scary place. Um, also, I was thinking like, finding some allies in this situation, and especially - if you can find them, and they are out there - cis men allies. So like other - cis men who will also be using that bathroom who are saying, "Yeah, of course, like, I don't mind. Have it in there. That sounds good to me." You know.
Kenny Ethan Jones
And more times, you know, unfortunately, they're the decision makers.
Hannah Witton
Use the patriarchy to your advantage.
Kenny Ethan Jones
That's the vibe. So yeah, no, I think yeah, there's a lot of things in that, that I think you can take actionable steps on that. But I think as well, just also, knowing that it can take a little time to do these things and these change happens, so being patient. And sometimes you find yourself being frustrated that things don't happen quick enough. But yeah, understanding it's a process as well. And also making sure that you're taking care of your own mental health when you're doing all of these things. Because it's so taxing.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my brain is like going all over the place now because I'm like, "Oh, it depends on what your vibe is. And like what your like protest tactics are, like what you'd be comfortable with." Because you could like, take some ketchup and like smear it over the men's toilets and be like, "Look, this is what would happen if you don't give us the bins."
Kenny Ethan Jones
I love how dramatic that is. I definitely - I definitely - I might steal that idea.
Hannah Witton
There you go. You can have it. I have no idea like how well that would go down. But like, hey, everyone's choice of protest tactics - like, do what you need to do.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Exactly. I love that. fantastic idea.
Hannah Witton
There we go. Kenny, this has been absolutely wonderful. Please tell our dear listeners where they can find more of you and your work and your advocacy online and in the world.
Kenny Ethan Jones
Yeah, so follow me on Instagram @kennyethanjones. That's where everything's at. That's where I spend my main time.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Right. Thank you so much!
Kenny Ethan Jones
Thank you for having me, by the way!
Hannah Witton
Oh, no, thank you. This has been excellent. And thank you all so much for listening! Bye!
Kenny Ethan Jones
Bye!