Pegging the Patriarchy, Dirty Talk and Race Play with Luna Matatas | Transcript
CW: racism and race-play
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the Sex and Relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This episode I am joined by the incredible Luna Matatas. Luna is a sex and pleasure educator with over 15 years of experience teaching sex and empowerment workshops. She teaches a wide range of topics including threesomes, BDSM, and sexual confidence. Luna also hosts the Plug Podcast, an anal sex podcast by B Vibe. And another reason her name may feel familiar, Luna is the creator of the term peg of the patriarchy, which was all over the news after last year's Met Gala, but more about that later. Luna is such an important voice in the sex positive sphere and is doing such great work around helping people grow their sexual confidence and explore kink. So I knew this would make for a very juicy chat and oh boy, was I not disappointed.
We talked all about how to build your sexual confidence through personal exploration, or playing stripper music in the shower like Luna does. We also spoke about the interaction of race and kink, from the frustration of how blind people are regarding race in kink spaces, the delicacy of power in interracial dynamics, and how to engage in race play in an ethical way. We also spoke about all things anal from Luna's thoughts on why pegging is becoming more popular, what anal training is, the importance of caring for your butt hole, and what active receiving looks like in butt play. We spoke about the pros and cons for Luna when Cara Delevingne and Dior appropriated Luna's own work, our shared love of the Sex Education babaganoush dirty talk sex scene, and Luna shared some really helpful tips for dirty talking with more confidence. I loved my chat with Luna so much, it was both so fun and insightful, I learned loads about the dynamics of race and kink, and all about butt stuff.
Please note, we do talk about racism and race play in this episode, so do bear that in mind before having a listen, and, as always, please take care of yourself.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @DoingItPodcast. And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify, it is really appreciated. And without further ado, here's my chat with the incredible Luna Matatas.
Luna, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to just like to get real into all of these juicy topics with you.
Luna Matatas
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's gonna be real juicy. It'll be good.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yes, in like, all of the senses of the word juicy, I think. So, to kick us off, I wanted to talk a bit about like sexual confidence, because in loads of your sex education work, so much of it is around kind of really getting to know yourself and being, becoming like a sexually confident person. And I was curious about what your journey has been like? Have you always been a very sexually confident person? Or was that a process?
Luna Matatas
That's such a good question because no. It also, it varies. I mean, I could have great sexual confidence on Tuesday and then you know, by Wednesday or Friday, I don't like myself again. And I think that was something that was so important along the journey. That it, I thought there was going to be this moment where I decided to work on my confidence, and I would arrive at this platform of confidence. That's not true. And it really started for me, I was very much I didn't grow up in a sex positive household, I really didn't have a lot of access to things in the same way that maybe we have access to more information today. And so it was it was it was a journey of body shame, it was a journey of sexual shame, it was a journey about all these voices and narratives in my head that had told me things about sex and sexuality that really didn't suit me. And so I was married for about 10 years and when I got divorced, I very much was determined to fall in love with myself. I was like, I lose myself in relationships, I make it all about the other person and I had lost connection to any sort of erotic, personal, intimate relationship to myself. And so that was the beginning. That was the beginning of many different tries at sexual confidence. And what's really helped me is recognising that everyone struggles with this. Everyone struggles with the same things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. And like, I love you saying that it's not like, and now I'm a sexually confident person, and then that's me for the rest of my life. And I think also we can fall into the trap of like, seeing people like yourself online and thinking, oh, well, she must be a super sexually confident person. But like you said, like, we're all kind of on our own journeys and like, have good days and bad days as well. And like, we don't have to share all of that stuff as well.
Luna Matatas
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think people think that sexual confidence is a look, a pose, a way of being, an aesthetic. Everyone wants to look good while they're doing sex. And the thing is, is like, sex is beautiful, and it's ugly, you know, bodies are beautiful, and they're disgusting. So it's really not about that. For me, it became about feeling this removal of self judgement in my erotic experiences. So this sense of belonging in my erotic experiences, that I deserve pleasure, that I deserve to also be empathetic with my partner's pleasure. And that helped me feel less worried about what I look like in bed.
Hannah Witton
Mm hmm. I love that, just like removing the judgement from it of like, especially because we can be so judgmental of ourselves and our bodies and desires.
Luna Matatas
Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
So to try and kind of like, talk about sexual confidence, then like, wrap it up in a neat bow, like, what are some of your kind of like, top tips for people? Obviously, like, not all of these will be universal, but kind of like, where can people get started if they're like, I want to be more sexually confident?
Luna Matatas
Yeah, yeah, there's, there's many places for people to start, and I think my favourite ones to recommend are looking at your own erotic desires. You know, where do you feel discomfort? Where do you feel embarrassment? Do you even know what you like? Are you like, well, maybe there's stuff out there and I just don't know about it. So start reading erotica, start thinking about your masturbation fantasies, start having conversations with your partners about their fantasies, this can help reduce the shame of asking for what we want, we want the things that we want, and there's all this noise around, eugh, like you shouldn't like that, or that makes you a slut, or this is going to make you demanding, or you know, a pervert. And so I think people carry a lot of that shame into their their sexual experiences. So it's hard to actually enjoy the things we like. And then I think the next biggest one is to start feeling your body move and enjoy being a body, just for fun. So I love putting on a sexy playlist in the shower and I'm just like, a stripper in the shower.
Hannah Witton
Yes!
Luna Matatas
Right! So anything that kind of gets you into what your body feels, what it hears, what it you know, tastes, what it is, you could have a sensual experience eating a burger, you know, really, like, don't eat it inf ront of Netflix, or you know, like, really focus on what it tastes like and what it looks like. So those are two big ones that I think really help us.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh, I love that the just kind of like being free with your body and all of that. I often think about how we sometimes, we, we try and steer away from, like the performance of like sex and our bodies and more around the experience of it. But on the flip side of that, sometimes I really love the experience of pretending to perform, especially when I'm on my own, and like putting on a performance for myself, because that feels very, like low pressure and low stakes, because it's like, in private.
Luna Matatas
Yes, yes, you get to just be your own sort of playful performance for nobody but yourself, just because it feels good. And when we look at like what we were like when we were kids, we moved a lot because it just felt good. It was fun. You just rolled around because it's fun.
Hannah Witton
I was literally about to bring it back to childhood as well. Because I mean, I don't I can't speak for everybody else, but I was like, I was the kind of kid who like pretended to be a pop star in front of her mirror. And so like, I want to like bring that kind of energy to my like, adult sexuality in terms of like me, by myself, in front of my mirror like, like performing being like this sexually confident woman.
Luna Matatas
I love that. Yeah, more play. We need more play.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I love play. Yes. Well, actually speaking of play, so you are a kinky person, and you talk and educate a lot on kink, and I would love to chat more about that. Like you host this monthly discussion called Race and Kink, and I was curious about kind of like, what kind of things come up in that. What insight can you give us into that, that intersection between race and kink?
Luna Matatas
Oh, yes. That series actually started in 2020, when the world was really watching what was happening in the US with racism, and I was just so annoyed that our kink community sort of felt that, you know, kink is separate, and it we shouldn't be talking about politics and kink. And, you know, the the personal is political, and our pleasure is a revolution, and so when we can't separate that I can't stop being brown just because I want to spank somebody, you know, this is it's really all integrated. And so we opened up the space to be able to talk about how do we dismantle racism and racist behaviours at the institutional level within kink. So that means, you know, who's running the festivals? Who gets shown in Latex? You know, what kinds of retailers are selling what? And largely, it looks the same. You can Google any kink festival and you're going to see the same kinds of people, and they don't look like me. And we also wanted to have people have an opportunity to have discussions around interpersonal things. So if you like fantasies, that might feel that there's a power dynamic that could be influenced by racial dynamics, or gender dynamics. You know, how do we get into pleasure and create safe erotic spaces, emotionally and physically, that also recognise that we are people coming in with a lot of systemic baggage, right, all this stuff is learned. And for people who have interracial partners, or they're kind of also wanting to navigate dynamics that maybe don't include things like race play, but that could show up, you know, how do we, how do we actually have those conversations so our sexuality and our eroticism isn't separate from a lot of the other types of fields that might be really uncomfortable in things like racism or sexism?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you kind of like mentioned, like, race play and stuff. And so, like, there are kinks that very much play on like, racist dynamics. And I was wondering what your thoughts on like, of people exploring those and like, the, also like the fetishization of, like, BIPOC people based on their race. And like, if that is something that you experience, how can you make, like your kink that maybe like involves race something that is, like respectful and mutually pleasurable and agreeable, and not, like full, like, it not be this like fetishization, I guess? Are there ways that that can be done?
Luna Matatas
Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think fetishization is a really big one, where we make assumptions about what people might like, or what they want to be treated like, or how they want to be celebrated based on just sort of their their racial dynamics. So BBCs or, you know, we're we fetishize black men a lot, or we fetishize asian women. And I think the important thing to remember to is that a lot of the porn dynamics that we're getting these fantasies from, they act as if there's only two races, right? So there's like an ebony category, and then there's interracial, it's just all white on black. And so we also wanted to say like, hey, like a lot of these fantasies, and the ways that we've seen them, actually, maybe don't even meet the possibilities, the infinite possibilitie,s of the way that we could express this. Race play tends to be about power dynamics, and so some kind of power exchange is happening. So anytime you're doing that, you really need to be very clear about what's on the menu. So what language, what vibes, you know, are we talking cruel? Are we talking nurturing? Are we talking adoring? Are we talking humiliating? And having a lot of discussions beforehand, and during, it's not sort of, we can say, Oh, you agreed to this, and now you did it, you don't like it? So you know, we move on. No, we actually have to break this down because you're a person first, and then it kinkster second. Even if those things are intertwined, there, there's so much of our humanity that has to be almost contained within this erotic space for it to be safe. So that's things like the containment is boundaries, the containment is a safe system, the containment is a debrief, aftercare. What are we doing after this happens? How do we put ourselves back together?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the aftercare is like such a huge part of it as well, because, like you said, like you're a person first. And so like, if you kind of like, stepping out of that, for a scene briefly, how do you then like, make sure you ground yourself back into your humanity and your play partners humanity, and all of that?
Luna Matatas
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think people have different varying kind of responses to race play. Some people are like, it's a hard no, you know, and I think there's, there's opportunities for also sexual liberation by doing our fantasies in safe, and engaging, and consensual ways, in that we get to play with a lot of the darkness that we have nowhere to put in our day to day life. What am I supposed to do with a racist system every single day? So my body maybe is like, hey, let's throw pleasure at it. And race play can happen in many different forms. So I enjoy race play from the perspective of being superior, and so if someone wants to be humiliated, let's say a white man wants to feel like he doesn't have all the power that he does in his regular day to day life, and I get to be some sort of like, you know, goddess like queen of supremes, you know, then great, you know that that's a that's an exchange where I'm accessing power that I don't have in in a day to day world in a space where someone has consented to experiencing that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. And also like, kinks are often based on taboos. And so like, that's also an important thing to acknowledge, like, and it's all fair enough, like people who'd like have hard limits, and just like, no, that is an absolute no go for me. But like, you know, in some cases, it's like, yeah, we might feel a bit icked out by hearing about some other people's kinks, but like, that's also kind of the point.
Luna Matatas
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And there's a difference between doing race play in like a public kink event, and people don't know what's going on, and they can be triggered. And for you and your partner sort of deciding that this is this is something that we want to do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like context.
Luna Matatas
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
A big part of it. So another thing that you talk about a lot, and this was kind of like how I came across you and your work, is the wonderful world of anal and pegging
Luna Matatas
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Exactly. So I feel like we really need to dive into this and all of your expertise. And I wanted to start with your phrase that you coined; peg the patriarchy. Which maybe people have heard.
Luna Matatas
Maybe.
Hannah Witton
Maybe they've heard it. Because Dior and Cara Delevingne wore it at the Met Gala, on her, like, on her outfit, and actually, I googled peg the patriarchy to kind of like, see what would come up. And actually, like the first like, it was all very much about her and that Met Gala, but the first result was an article that was like, "Hey, this happened, but actually like, it was coined by this woman, and, and was appropriated here" and like, you weren't given credit, basically. And yeah, I wondered how you found out about that, and like, what you thought of it, and kind of like the aftermath of it?
Luna Matatas
Yeah. Well, I'm glad you told me that you googled and it was the internet is correct. But I coined this phrase in like 2015, and I've been selling it as part of my sex positive merchandise. It's also been kind of this phrase that connected me with other people that were interested in subverting systems by using metaphors of pleasure, by talking about sex as part of some of the actions that we use to experience aversion. And I had been teaching a BDSM class the night the day that I found out it was appropriated, and I went online, all happy to like tell people about my class. And then I saw I had like, a million mentions, and I was like, "Oh, God, this is not good. I either fucked up, or like something like happened, I don't know." And when I saw it, there was this mix of like, oh my gosh. You know, because I think you know, as a sex podcaster and a pleasure-preneur in this world, we're under so much censorship. So it's so difficult to have the kind of reach that like being mentioned at the Met Gala would give someone.
So I was at first, you know, very shocked that oh, like I don't, I didn't even really know what the Met Gala was, like, I'm not as in the celebrity kind of news. And so I was like, what the hell's this thing? And who is Cara Delevingne? It's like I don't know any of these people. But then when I saw the vest, I was like, oh my gosh, the audacity to like not even change the font to you know, claim it as her own, when like it's been in existence on all my profiles, I own the domain, I own the trademark in Canada, and I was just really shocked. I was I was shocked that, I was shocked and not shocked. I think we've seen this happen before, where BIPOC creators get ripped off by you know, wealthy, usually white people, and you know, actually feeling that there was such a missed opportunity here, to actually if she wanted to speak to feminism, if Dior wanted to speak to feminism, this would have been a great opportunity to lift up another feminist to be like, hey, we love this thing they've created and Luna has a lot of work on it. You know, go check her out. Yeah, so it was very much a David and Goliath situation where I don't necessarily, I don't have a legal team, I don't have the resources to to fight this. And so really, a lot of my my resources came from the support of the community, people who are tired of seeing BIPOC art be appropriated, people who are tired of seeing messages be distorted by doing air quotes, you know, sort of white feminism and so, it had it you know, it's good and it's bad.
But overall, I think it was also something very personal for me in that I have to stand behind my art, I also have to navigate as a small business owner, all of these like copycats just like popped up everywhere, from Etsy, to red bubble, all these like T shirt places. And so it was a it was a distraction, but it was also very much about no, I want to protect my art, you know. I am the, you know, David in this situation, but this is something that is, it's mine, and that it's important that people know where it originated from.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What was that process like? Did you kind of just have to go like knee deep in admin?
Luna Matatas
Yes, yes, yes, you got it. I was knee deep in admin, I had to hire someone part-time to file all of the infringement reports. I had to consult with lawyers, because at first I thought maybe there's something that I can do. But trademarks are really also really designed to protect people who can protect them. And so, you know, having one just doesn't it usually people are, it's not the first time someone has stole something, but usually people are pretty much, you know, kind of doing it as a fandom thing and they didn't realise it was trademarked. And when I reached out to them, they're great. I heard nothing from Dior, nothing from Cara.
Hannah Witton
I was gonna ask.
Luna Matatas
I think they just did what, what celebrities do, and they were able to kind of wait for it to blow over. And, you know, for me, it's still alive.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you still hear about it? Do you still get messages or anything about it? Or, or I guess on like, maybe a more positive side, do you think that more people found you because it happened? Or because you weren't credited originally, you didn't necessarily see like the benefits of that?
Luna Matatas
Yeah, I think, I think more people definitely know about it, because it happened and more people that I wouldn't have been able to reach through kind of traditional advertising. And then I think there are also places, I had someone send me a screenshot from a French opera that was using it, and I was like, okay. I mean -
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Luna Matatas
I know. And so I thought, you know, there's, there's definitely going to be now a tail of peg the patriarchy that is detached from me, and that people are gonna think Cara came up with it, and they're gonna mimic her vest. But I think the people who matter to me, the people that want pleasure education, the people that want equity and sex to be connected, you know, they found me and now I've got this whole new, like, family of support, and I was just so touched, it was really a good cushion for me during such a stressful time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I can imagine. And the community can be so great in that way, especially because, like you were saying before, about, like the censorship and, and stuff. So oftentimes, like, we do have to support each other in those ways, because we're like, how else do we get like our work out there?
Luna Matatas
Exactly. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
So let's actually dive into pegging.
Luna Matatas
Yes, yes.
Hannah Witton
Cuz, on a personal note, something I'm fascinated by hypothetically. Have not experienced. But I was wondering, like, why you think it's something that's, like being talked about more is, like, at least in my kind of, like, world, it seems to be coming more popular. And I was just wondering, like, what trends like, have you noticed, like, when did you start talking about pegging? And like, have you seen kind of like, an interest in it kind of grow or evolve?
Luna Matatas
Yeah, I actually was around the time when Dan Savage, podcaster and educator, you know, had come up with the term pegging. And this was in the early 2000s. And I remember reading his column, and I was like, peg what? You know, what is this? I had no anal experience at that time, no pegging, no strap on experience. And I was just really curious about it. And I think it's become so much more of a topical issue now, or something that people are curious about, or want education about, because it's anal sex, and anal sex is becoming less and less taboo. It's becoming less kinky. It's becoming something that people are interested in exploring, which I think is great. I mean, the anus is just another erogenous zone. If you make it kinky, cool. If you don't want it to be kinky, you just want it to be normal sex in a different way, cool. And you know pegging is a term really came up to deal with a lot of the internalised homophobia that cis, heterosexual men were dealing with. And so it was a way of kind of giving language to a sexual act that felt very much that was, it came with a lot of shame because of their gender and their sexuality. And so, you know, we kind of moved beyond that. We know that anyone can have strap on play, anyone can have anal sex, anyone can give and receive, but pegging, for some people, is still a particular fantasy. And so the fantasy of a strap on by someone who is a cis woman for a cis man, that fantasy is okay. I mean, we do that with other fantasies. We do that with dominance, dominance is just dominance. But you know, you could be a femme Dom, you can be a daddy Dom, you're putting a different flavour into the activity for your fantasy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also kind of like subverting those, like, stereotypes or gender roles that you see playing out in the 'real world', not that our bedrooms aren't part of the real world. But yeah, it is that kind of that, that play, that subversion, that that taboo, I guess.
Luna Matatas
Yes.
Hannah Witton
So, say someone is interested in trying pegging. What is like, some advice that you would give them in terms of like, like pegging itself, but then also like, some of the practicalities of like, how do you pick a good harness? How do you pick a good strap on? Like, all of that stuff as well
Luna Matatas
Yeah, it's like a high gear activity. I think a lot of times people just pick up like a pegging kit that comes with a harness and a dildo and they're like, we're going to do pegging. And, you know, that's okay, if you got that, that's fine. But there are better ways to shop for for your gear. So I think the first thing to do is talk with your partner, tell them that you're interested in doing this thing. Are you interested in giving, receiving, you know, what's the vibe for you? And if you're the person who's telling your partner that you have this fantasy, tell them more than just, I want to do pegging. You know, you got to talk about like, oh, so I was thinking about you in a position of like giving it to me and I wanted to feel kind of helpless, or I want to feel like taken or, you know, think about what you want to feel, and what you want your partner to experience. That's going to give you more points of connection in the fantasy than just the activity. Yeah, the activity is usually just the vessel, right? Like it's just like what we channel our sexiness through
Hannah Witton
And then what you're aiming for is the vibes.
Luna Matatas
Yes, literally and figuratively. We want the vibes. But with with equipment, you know, with dildos, if you're doing pegging, we're usually engaging an area that might have access to the prostate to, so we're looking for and the anus is a little bit different than the vagina in that is not self lubricating, it is not as easily stretchy. So we might be able to do things with a vagina that we can't do with the anus right away. So when you're looking for a pegging dildo, make sure that your eyes are not bigger than the butthole. Look for something that is small. A lot of people have size fantasies, you can work your way up there, or you can create an illusion of size. But really, the anus needs a lot of warming up. So if your partner is the one receiving, or you're the one receiving, you have to start working with butt plugs, and anal masturbation, and really try and understand what your body feels like during anal sex before your partner has an opportunity. For harnesses, I think that there's so many different options now, like we've got pelvic harnesses that are kind of strappy or look like underwear. Underwear harnesses, I usually don't recommend for beginners unless you want to also use a strap with it because they don't give as much support. And so you're gonna have to hold on to your dildo while thrusting. There's thigh harnesses, there's hand harnesses, you know, there's all kinds of ways that you don't have to go
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, the thigh ones, it's like wrapped around your thigh and so someone could like sit on your thigh, yes
Luna Matatas
And it gives you more you know, I'm a plus sized person, I have a tummy, if my partner has a voluminous body or voluminous butt, sometimes the dildo isn't going to be able to reach the hole. So a thigh harness actually also gives you more penetrative power, your thigh is a lot easier to manoeuvre than your hips for thrusting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that also made me think about like, disabled people as well. And so it just the more options that you have, just increases the accessibility in terms of like, what positions you may or may not be able to get into, if you want to try something like pegging or anal play.
Luna Matatas
Absolutely, I mean, your pegging dildo or your pegging cock doesn't have to go on your pelvis, right, we get to play because it's not factory installed so we can put it wherever we want
Hannah Witton
That's so true. What does like anal training look like? What are some of like, the kind of like key things that people need to be aware of if like anal play something that they want to start doing? And like, like you said, like, people's eyes can be bigger than their buttholes, but also people can try and like run before they walk. What's, what are, what are the kind of like the training? I want I want to see like an anal training montage.
Luna Matatas
I know, I want to see a little booty like doing like, you know, barbells or something Anal training is actually something that sounds like work, but it's also pleasure. It's about like getting to know your body, what it feels like. Like the anus is usually an exit only area, so when we're putting things in it, we're getting the the anus has a shitty day job and so like it's it's you know, it's got work that our body is used to certain sensations. And so when those sensations happen when we're getting penetrated, it can trigger our feelings of, oh my gosh I'm gonna take a dump on my partner, I'm gonna you know shit the bed, and we want to make sure that we know that that's not happening. Your your faeces doesn't, your bowel doesn't land in the rectum. So the area where we would have that penetration, your poop is way higher.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, once your poop is in the rectum, you're already sat on the toilet.
Luna Matatas
Yeah, yeah, this is not the time where you're like, Hmm, I'm going to anal train and I gotta take a dump. You know, that's not, it's not how it works. So you want to start really small, I think butt plugs that have a flared base, a flexible neck, and a curved really soft kind of top are super important and helpful. And something that's no bigger than your thumb. That's where you should start with with anal training. You really can't go bigger than that until you can comfortably take that. Lube is your love language with any kind of anal play? Do not skimp on the lube.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, any kind of like specific kind of lube is better for anal? Or is it kind of just like the water and silicone and just kind of like the ones to generally go? Or is anal like, are there different considerations?
Luna Matatas
Yeah, that's a really good question too. I think what you're looking for is a long lasting lubricate. So we want to make sure that it's not kind of getting used up, so you will probably have to reapply during any kind of your anal play. People prefer things that are longer lasting, like oil based lube, silicone base lube, or really thick water based lube. So if you've got something that that you might not use vaginally, you might want to use it anally because you're going to have a different bit of a texture to minimise the friction that happens during penetration.
Hannah Witton
Mm hmm. I've seen these little like lube applicators for like, anal play where it's like a little mini syringe so you can kind of like, squirt, so lube inside.
Luna Matatas
I love those. I think there's such an underrated thing. So they're, they're like, right they're lube applicators, lube injectors, and they look like a syringe. And this helps get the rectum way more lubricated than if you were just kind of squirting it on the butthole and trying to push it in with your finger.
Hannah Witton
I love that. I love just like sex toy accessory like innovation. Like who thought of that, but also great.
Luna Matatas
Yeah, thank you whoever thought of that, great job.
Hannah Witton
Exactly. One of the things that I kind of like to say when it comes to penetration when it comes to like, the anus or the vagina is that like, the anus's job is to like push to like, suck, it sucks things up. And they're like, the vagina's job is to push things out.
Luna Matatas
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And so like, that I always like to keep in mind when it comes to like, the different kinds of things that you would do with those areas. So like, like you said, like, make sure you have a flared base with your anal toys. And then it makes me think of like Kegel balls and stuff, and like, you know, the vaginas job is to push things out so like, that's, that's kind of like the whole point of like, the Kegel training as well as like, how long can you hold this in for? But also make sure you relax -
Luna Matatas
Yes, yes. And you got it. You also said something so important about this, this relaxation. And when we're trying a new activity, a lot of times our body is tense, or, you know, we finish our work day and we're like, I'm going to go anal train and, you know, you haven't gotten yourself in the mood, like go to your go to hotspots, if you want to touch your penis or your vulva, you know, before anal training, get your body warmed up, because that relaxation is going to facilitate the penetration.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's that's such a huge piece. And like one of the things that you talk about is like being an active receiver. What does that mean? What does that look like, being an active receiver?
Luna Matatas
Oh, my goodness. So I take my own advice around this because I forget. When you're in the receiving mode, you're you're just kind of you can puddle out, you can feel very soft, maybe non verbal, your or other people feel that it is sort of insulting or maybe challenging to the person who's giving if we give feedback as receivers. And so you might be shy to give your partner feedback. But being an active receiver is all about giving communication. So saying things like slow down, or go deeper, or can we take a break, or more lube. It's also about nonverbal communication. So you can be active in having your partner hold the penetrating item, whether it's a dildo, a penis, or finger, and you can bounce back on it. So you control the depth of it, right, or squatting. You can control the depth of it in that way. And that gives your body the sense of trust that we're not going to push past the signs of pain.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's so important. It kind of reminds me, this isn't a pegging or an anal sex scene, it's like a dogging sex scene in this book called How to Build a Girl, where our character is like on all fours, and she's reminiscing about the fact that this man had a very large penis. And it's like this comedic scene where she's describing herself, like on all fours, like moving around the bed to, like, get like, to create a bit more distance. And so yeah, like, if you're the one in the receiving position, like you absolutely can, whether that's like, where you placed your hands, or the position that you're in, be the person who controls like, the depth and the speed
Luna Matatas
Yes
Hannah Witton
And the pressure and kind of like, all of those things. And I mean, as someone who hasn't been in the, like, active role in that sense, from at least from observation, it can be hard work. And like, like, physically, you know, like, and so like, you're also letting them have a bit of a break.
Luna Matatas
Yes. And yeah, you're building up their, their confidence in what they're doing is good. What they're doing is right. I've had people who, let's say, they're on their back, and I'm pegging them, and I asked, hey, are you okay? Is this good? And their face is all squinched up and they're like, is good, keep going, you know, that's, that's not gonna build my confidence. It's okay to take breaks, any kind of burning sensation, if you're the receiver, you need to take a break. That means your tissue is getting irritated, you could be causing, you know, either minor injuries or larger injuries, like fissures and fissures take forever to heal. So avoid the fissures, be good to the booty hole, and just take it at the speed that it wants to go.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that. I feel like that's something that so many people have done where like, their words are saying one thing and their body language and their facial expression are communicating something so different. And I think that just kind of like shows how it's, why it's so important, with sexual partners, to not only like, discuss verbally, like, hey, what are you into? What are you liked? But also be like, hey, if you're enjoying something, what does that look like?
Luna Matatas
Yes
Hannah Witton
Or if you're not enjoying something, what does that look like? And so then you can kind of understand their like bodily cues, even if they don't necessarily have the words to kind of describe what it is that they want in that moment.
Luna Matatas
Yes, yes. I love that language. Because I think one of the biggest questions that I get hosting the Plug Podcast, which is all about anal pleasure, is that, you know, what happens if I tell my partner, you know, this thing? Or what happens if like, my partner wants to go faster than me? What happens if there's poop? We're so concerned about these natural things that happen during sex that are going to be potentially detrimental to our care, our love, our relationship. Where am I going to live if like, you know, I shit on the dildo? Like it's not gonna happen, but that thought tornado is so relatable. And so it's no surprise to me that that's one of the most popular concerns.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for sure. So I want to chat about dirty talk as well, because like, we talked a lot about like communicating desires, and wants, and needs, and stuff, and I think sometimes people can get a bit like, oh, that doesn't sound like sexy, but like, dirty talk for me, it's just like, such a great way to kind of do all of that necessary consent work, but also in this really sexy, playful way. Yeah, I think also people have a lot of hesitation or resistance today talk, because kind of like back to that confidence piece as well of like not feeling confident enough to do it. Have you seen Sex Education and the babaganoush scene?
Luna Matatas
Yes! Oh my god, I love that show.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so yeah, I was I wanted to know your thoughts on that. And then just also like dirty talk in general because that that kind of like storyline between the two teachers and their dirty talk, and then them just like, hornally screaming babaganoush just, to me, like optimised like, how dirty talk doesn't have to be like this really serious thing.
Luna Matatas
You nailed it. That's, that's what I took away from it, too. I think that dirty talk, and sex in general, it we underrate how silliness can be sexy. And it goes back to that topic of our conversation around being playful. And the babaganoush is so much about it actually doesn't matter if you're saying some kind of raunchy script that sounds you know very much like porn, or uses a lot of like curse words, or like very kind of gruff words. If you like that, that's great. But it doesn't have to be like that. And so you can actually make anything sexy by changing your tone, by slowing down what you say, and actually lowering your volume. And so that that's something that is, you know, really something that you can practice with your partner, you can kind of flirt over dinner and be like, go get me some nachos, you know, and just like, do that and then giggle about it.
Hannah Witton
Pass me the salt, baby
Luna Matatas
Yeah, extra cheese, you know? That's actually the homework that I give my dirty talk participants in my class is to dirty talk a menu to their partner and so like, or a recipe or something. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Yeah. Because I think sometimes we get so in our heads when it comes to sex and dirty talk that we're can't see, like, it's that judgement thing again, and we're like, second guessing ourselves. But then if you just kind of like completely take the pressure off, you're also like, not in a sexual situation. You're like, in the kitchen with your partner cooking dinner, and then you're you're doing this like, really playful thing. Yeah, you just can have so much, so much fun with it.
Luna Matatas
Exactly, exactly. And you can start off with sexting, you know, sometimes sexting builds our vocabulary, or it allows us to manage rejection in sort of a tamer kind of way. And that rejection might not even just be rejection, it just might be that something didn't quite land for somebody, or you call them baby and they like to be called slut or, you know, whatever. This it's actually a good way of learning about what words do do it for your partner. What words do it for you. Idirty talk a lot of times because it turns me on. Because it's taboo, because it's stepping outside my comfort zone. I'm like, oh, my God, look at me like doing the thing. Right? So we got to also cheer ourselves on.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What is what are some other, I love that homework, the menu homework. But what are what are some other things that you kind of like, give people as bits of advice or tips for kind of broaching dirty talk? Because I feel like this is something that, it just comes up a lot like people like in the moment just being like, I don't know what to say.
Luna Matatas
Yeah, yeah. That's so true. It's, in the moment, it's so hard to come up with. Okay, what would be sexy right now? Or I already told them they're beautiful 54 times, you know, and so we kind of like, run out of things to say. So I usually teach seven different types of dirty talk and one of the ones that I think is easier to start with, for some people, some people find this intimidating, but one type I teach is narration. And so narration is just like, looking at what's happening, you like seeing your partner's face between your legs? Babe, you look so hot between my legs. And that's all and it's, it's not gonna land super sexy the first time you try. But after your partner is really affirming, after your partner, you know, moans down there, or like he lights up because you said something, we want to make sure that we're taking notice of their reaction. If their reaction is kind of muted, you can check in later, you can say, hey, like, did you, did you like that thing? Did you like when I said that? And you can tell them that you're trying and that you'd have you know, you'd welcome any of affirmation, or any direction, on what kind of language does it for them. Being humble and empathetic to other people's pleasure also helps us be humble and empathetic with ourselves, right, and feel like we don't have to say the right thing every single time. So I think narration is a good one, because you've got the visual script there for you, and that you can just kind of say what's happening.
The other thing that I think is is good to start with is pick something that you already know your partner does really well. So if your partner spoons you really well, if they kiss your bum really well, if they massage your feet, you're going to ask for something in a sexy way. And so you already know you're going to get it because they already like it, so we take off that rejection. Some people find it really hard to ask for what they want. But if you're asking for something like babe, can you rub my feet, you just want to slow down that really simple sentence, and just lower your voice a little bit. So we're just creating these awkward pauses in our language, and that awkwardness is actually authentic. That pause creates a little bit of tease, right? It creates a little bit of seduction in like, babe, can you rub my feet? You know, like, it sounds silly when I'm saying it out of context, it makes us giggle, but when I see someone giggle when I dirty talk, I'm like, cool. I shook something right. I delighted something.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Oh, delighted. Yeah. I love that. And also, we shouldn't be afraid of awkwardness.
Luna Matatas
Yeah, it is awkward. Sex is awkward. Like we're not performers, so it's awkward. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I love that. It's just like sex: awkward, silly, messy. All of these things.
Luna Matatas
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Right, we have some questions from people on Instagram.
Luna Matatas
Awesome.
Hannah Witton
They need - they need your help.
Luna Matatas
Okay, let's do this.
Hannah Witton
Um, somebody asked how to explore kinks as someone who doesn't know what theirs are?
Luna Matatas
Ooh, this is a good one. Because I think actually a lot of people don't know what their kinks are. I didn't know what my kinks were. And something that can help, I usually don't recommend exploring through porn because porn usually shows a very extreme version of kinks. And it also shows a limited variety of bodies, of gender dynamics, of racial dynamics. So I would actually take yourself to erotic audio or erotic literature. And just get curious, get yourself a glass of wine, or joint, or whatever you do to relax, and get into just being curious about why is anyone into this? and click on that. Why is anyone into that? Or oh, that's curious, but I don't like it this way. And so you're treating it as a self discovery, because kink also allows you this opportunity for self development. So I wasn't interested in erotic dominance when I first started exploring my kinks, and out of that feminine dominance, out of teaching it, out of understanding it for myself, playing with it, I actually developed confidence outside of the bedroom by channelling that erotic dominance. So I don't go round domming people non consensually, but I recognise that, you know, I had trouble receiving, lots of people have trouble being the receiver. And actually, if you're a people pleaser, you're gonna relate to this, you know. And so getting into kind of a curious mode. You might also go online to a sex shop and just look at the different activities, or the tools that are there, and what's the difference between a riding crop and a cane? Am I interested in rope bondage or handcuffs? And, you know, then take some classes. I think I have taken a million classes. As soon as I got curious and knew there was even something to that called, like a sex class, and it really opened me up to different ways of thinking about kink, instead of just kind of repeating what I saw other people doing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And, and yeah, it's like that curiosity thing, especially like, Hey, I think I might be interested in kink, but I don't know what's out there. It's like, go discover, there's a whole world to explore.
Luna Matatas
Yes, yes. Yes. If you were looking for a pandemic hobby, you know, maybe like searching for your new kink is like the thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And this, I think is such an interesting question. Somebody asked tips on unlearning masculinity issues when it comes to sex, especially needing to be dominant, though I want to be submissive sometimes, and I can't be vulnerable and honest about fantasies.
Luna Matatas
Yeah, I want to say that both of those things are really hard. And we don't have a society that that validates that, and so men also become objectified. And any of us can internalise toxic masculinity or negative forms of masculinity. But particularly for men, there's this expectation that's upheld through society, through our social norms, our sexual norms, that they are in charge, and they are the penetrators, that sex ends when they ejaculate, that sex is always about penetration. And the best thing that I think that can start you on opening up that that journey, number one is also taking classes, because I think most pleasure educators are busting this, they're actually creating supportive spaces for exploring things, and they have tools and techniques that can that can help. I think the second thing is really watching what porn you're looking at. So take stock of, is the porn that you're watching, is it reinforcing these norms? Is it validating and creating a pleasure pathway for these same norms? Because what we're trying to do is disrupt, you know, what we've learned is pleasure. And that box that we've learned in is actually not a box, it's a whole sky full of pleasure. And I think the other thing is like, with your partners to say, hey, you know, I'm kind of curious about what you're into. And so letting someone else's desires, you know, open up space for you to do certain things or engage in certain things. So if this person is interested in submission, find someone who's interested in dominance, so find experiences that are going to be validating. The talking about fantasies thing is really hard, because we kind of stumble in and I'm like, oh, so I want to be spanked, you know, and, you know, spanking could be like playful, it could be punishment, it could be reward, it could be part of a disciplinary scene. So we want to get to know that ourselves. So when you're masturbating, or if you want to tell someone about your fantasy, describe it to them as if you were telling a story. So think about your masturbation isn't just you bent over and got spanked. There's a particular tool that you're getting spanked with, what are you wearing? What are they wearing? What do you feel? What do they feel? start answering those questions.
Hannah Witton
Why are you being spanked?
Luna Matatas
Yes. Why? What did you do? What kind of naughty were you?
Hannah Witton
Very important question. I think what you're saying about porn was so interesting as well, because yeah, it makes me think about like, yeah, what, what are the like representations of men and masculinity, in a sexual context, that you're absorbing? And like, where can you find more more diverse, like a more like, like a variety of different kinds of masculinities
Luna Matatas
Yes, absolutely. I think we show up to sex, especially what men are taught is that they show up to get sex from people. And so that's part of like masculinity. So if we show up in our spaces about giving sex, what is the kind of sex this person wants to receive? That also opens up people's vulnerability and makes it feel safer for us to then be counter vulnerable with them. So if your partner's like, hey, actually, I just want to be eaten out tonight. And you're like, great, you know, let's do that. And is it okay if I, if you tell me what to do? Can you like boss me around a little because I kind of want to feel like I'm worshipping you tonight. That's an awesome change in the way that we do things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's so true. I love that. Well, Luna, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you. Where can people find more of you online? And like all of the work that you do and like, you know, all of the classes, and webinars, and everything that you have?
Luna Matatas
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This conversation was so fun and so amazing, and I hope people got a lot out of it. People can find me at LunaMatatas.com. I have about 30 on demand webinars that you can watch anytime. For people who are also struggling with fantasy language, there is a blog post I have about how to talk about your fantasies, and how to vet a potential kinky partner, what questions you should be asking. And you could tune into the Plug Podcasts by b-Vibe, which is all about anal pleasure, on wherever you listen to your podcast. And I have some fun things coming up. I have a kinky retreat. Yes, yes, I'm so excited. It's my first retreat ever. I'm doing it with another sex educator, Marla Renee Stewart, and we're calling it Kinky Tapas. So you're getting a lot of kink in little bites, so if you're new to kink, that's happening in April. And actually, this is the first time I'm going to be talking about this on a podcast, I am going to be talking about it -
Hannah Witton
An exclusive!
Luna Matatas
An exclusive only on Doing It. In March, I'm launching an eight week group online course for sexual confidence in and out of the bedroom. So we're going to be working on untaming all of the nonsense that doesn't serve us and reclaiming all the pleasure possibilities that are out there for us. So signing up for my newsletter is the best way to get exclusive access for that.
Hannah Witton
Oh, amazing. Amazing. Yeah, we'll make sure that all of those different things are linked in the show notes. Thank you so much, and thank you all for listening.