Discovering the Clitoris, Online Relationships and Body Image with Megan Jayne Crabbe | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Hi, welcome back to Doing It. I hope you are well. I'm really excited to be bringing you new episodes, wonderful guest interviews, and lots of sex topics to nerd out about together. This week my guest is the fabulous Megan Jayne Crabbe. She is a creator, author, presenter, and body positive advocate. Megan has an incredible Instagram account where she talks a lot about body positivity, mental health, relationships, sex positivity, and just living and enjoying life. In this episode, we get into so many of these topics from when we first learned that our bodies could bring us pleasure instead of pain, or just being about somebody else's pleasure, to navigating relationships and what to share, and what not to share, about them online to mental health and body image. Trigger warning for this episode, we discuss fatphobia, diet culture, and eating disorders. Please skip this episode if you need to and look after yourself. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @DoingItPodcast. And, if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes. It's really appreciated and really helps us out. And without further ado, let me introduce you to the wonderful Megan Jayne Crabbe. Hey Megan, how are you doing? I'm so excited to finally get you on the podcast.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Hello, gorgeous. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for asking me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like there's so many things that I want to talk with you about. And I feel like each of these things could be like, an entire podcast episode in themselves. But we're gonna do our best.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
We're gonna do a whistle stop tour of the most important things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, of what you think about the most important things.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Okay. And you, I would like your opinions also, don't just have me.
Hannah Witton
I can chime in, if you like, yeah. But I guess like, you talk a lot about bodies and body image and stuff online, and that's kind of like also how you kind of came to be a prominent person on the internet as well. And I was just wondering how your relationship with your body has changed over the years, even like pre being online and stuff, in terms of seeing your body as like a site for pleasure. Because I know you often talk about how, with having an eating disorder, and we're just going straight into it, that often our bodies are a sight of a lot of distress, and discomfort, and pain, and shame, but I wondered when for you did you start thinking of your body as something that could bring you joy and something that could bring you pleasure?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Killer first question. I think that diet culture and definitely eating disorders both work really effectively to separate you from your body. For the longest time, I didn't even really feel like my body belonged to me, it felt like a thing, an object, to be looked at by other people, approved of by other people, or for other people to take pleasure from
Hannah Witton
Ooo, yeah
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Having sexual relationships with people, it was never about what I was experiencing, or what I was feeling, it was just, am I performing exactly the right thing to give this person what they want, then I will have done a good job. You know, it took a lot of years, and a lot of healing from eating disorder stuff, and diet, culture stuff, and sexual shame stuff to be embodied again, to be connected to how my body felt, and my own sense of pleasure. And I would say I didn't really tap into that until, maybe, I was 23/24, so it's only been a few solid years.
Hannah Witton
Lots of catching up to do.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Oh, yes. If you could see my bedside table, you would understand
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, that's how I feel as well. Like I was definitely in my early 20s when I kind of actually got to grips with what I could do with my body by myself. And I was like, oh, there it is. Right, okay, let's go.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
What is this, this magical button on my body that does nothing but provide me with pleasure, why have I not experienced this before?
Hannah Witton
I don't even remember when I learned about the clitoris. Do you remember?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I probably only heard that word for the first time when I was like 18. But again, it was always just in reference to someone else like not knowing where it was or never about knowing it yourself, and what you liked about it
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like, kind of like comedy scenes in movies of like, men not being able to find it.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Absolutely like, oh, this guy can never find the clitoris. Alright, but we're also not even talking about finding it ourselves
Hannah Witton
Like please tell me, like actually where?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz I yeah I do not remember when I learned that it was a thing, or even like a thing that I had, because definitely like as a teenager, I thought that anything that you did to a vulva was penetration. I didn't understand that there was like a whole world on the surface.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
So interesting. Do you remember, do you have any young kind of teenage memories of like the first time one of your friends said that they masturbated or?
Hannah Witton
Honestly? No. Like, all of the conversations I remember around masturbation as a teenager were boys talking about wanking, very publicly, all of the time. And then occasionally, like, a guy would be like, do you wank? And you'd be like, no, no, of course not, no. But I'd like fully internalized, that I wasn't even lying. Like I didn't, and I genuinely felt that like that it was gross for people like me to do it. So no. Did you have your friends?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I mean, I'm with you on the internalizing the shame. I had one friend who, I think had a sleepover, once when we were like 13 dared to say that she did that, and that she knew what an orgasm was. She was like the most -
Hannah Witton
Wow, love that
Megan Jayne Crabbe
- sexually out there person in our group. And the rest of us were just just shocked. I mean, no, I literally didn't even get to it until I was like, probably 16.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I remember having conversations with my friends, as adults, and then some of them admitting like, oh, yeah, I'd been doing it since I was 12. Or like, even younger, maybe. And I was like, I feel like I wish I had known this then. Ah, oh my goodness. But yeah, what a tricky time to navigate. And I think like, for me as well, when it comes to like the body too, like, sometimes you can like, find that it is pleasurable, but then because of like, all of these messages that we receive, then actually feel bad about the pleasure.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Mm hmm.
Hannah Witton
Was that something that you went through?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Erm, I think that definitely with partnered activities, it took me a long time to feel okay and not guilty about standing up for my pleasure. As soon as, I mean as soon as I got to it with myself, I was kind of unstoppable. But yeah, partner's a different story.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, why do you think that that was so different for you, in terms of kind of, I guess, letting somebody else in to that experience with you.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
It's just the narrative that we grew up with, isn't it, that we're there to please the other person. And especially if our needs, you know, what's interesting is that I feel like for people with vulva's, there's this mystified, kind of folk tale, that it's so complicated to
Hannah Witton
Yes
Megan Jayne Crabbe
To please us, and that it's like, no one could possibly work out the mysteries of the clitoris, and the vulva, and the vagina. So it's that sense of being difficult.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I think it's that sense of like, I don't want to have to explain how I like things. Because you know, oh, I'm just too much trouble, I'll just take care of myself, don't even worry about it, I'll just do it myself
Hannah Witton
Yes. And actually, we're doing everybody a disservice there because when you label like, one kind of person one way it's, it's in relation as an opposite to something else. And so when we say that people with vulva's have really complicated anatomy and like, oh, it's really difficult to make them come. What we're also saying at the same time, is that people with penises are really easy to please, and that also does them a really big disservice because every penis is different, and it isn't just as simple as just like, put it in your mouth, or stroke it, like there's a lot of other things going on there. And I think that that needs to be acknowledged as well. So it's like, it's not that one kind of anatomy is trickier and another is like really easy. It's that every single person has different genitals, and everyone should be treated as if like, their pleasure is special and unique to them. Yeah, that's, there's my soapbox moment.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I mean as far as, I'm with you on the soapbox, as far as I'm concerned, like every new sexual experience is an exploration, you cannot go into anything, with anyone, assuming you're going to immediately know what brings them pleasure, like you said, that does a disservice. It's all about exploring, baby.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things that I always come across is that we expect, especially like, as we're kind of, like, emerging into adulthood, like around that age, there is this pressure to like, know what you want sexually, know what to do. But also, you've never been given the tools to, like, even figure that stuff out. And there's this like, pressure of being good in bed and good at sex. But there is no like a universally, like, you might be really good in bed with one person, and then with another person, like, that doesn't fly.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
So true.
Hannah Witton
And so yeah, I just think this pressure of like, it's kind of like what you were saying at the beginning about that performance. And I see the, like, what you're saying is like the exploration as an experience. And this is like, a very different parallel as well, but like, in my sex life, very much trying for it to be an experience and not a performance. But then also, when I think about, like, my social media life, and my life in general, very much tried to make my entire life an experience and not a performance.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yep. I mean, that's a word, that is a word. That's, I think this is this is part of the old patriarchal conditioning, isn't it. It's essentially
Hannah Witton
There's the P word
Megan Jayne Crabbe
It was gonna happen at some point, we were gonna drop it. Your entire existence is about being acceptable to other people, you know, whether that's being beautiful enough, or being sexual enough, or not too sexual, being smart enough, being successful enough. It's all seeing ourselves through the lens of somebody else. And like you were saying, it's not even just in sexual experiences, it's anything that we do it's like, if you go if you go on a date with someone, or if you go to an event, even if you're just spending time with yourself, are you actually enjoying it? Like we spend so much time thinking about is the other person enjoying it? Am I impressing them? What did they think of me? Okay, what do you think of you? Like,
Hannah Witton
And what do you think of them?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, exactly. You're there too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. This actually leads me on to another thing that I wanted to talk to you about, which is, like, the whole world of relationships, but then also being a social media person, and hashtag relationship goals, and all of that. Because this is something that I've seen you kind of talk about online as well and I was just wondering how you feel about it now, because I feel like I very much have like a private relationship that like has public moments. Because I think it is important, I think, to kind of like model healthy relationship behavior. But then I also don't want to ever be like anyone's relationship goals. Yeah, and I wondered how you felt about that, and then also, just like, as you've kind of grown up, how you also just like, navigate relationships in terms of understanding, like, what a good relationship is, and how relationships work.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
It's a it's a tough line to walk, isn't it. It's, like you said, I feel the responsibility of not creating an illusion, like not putting out this picture perfect, nothing's ever wrong ideal
Hannah Witton
But you also don't, you're not going to put your arguments on blast
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Exactly. It's so tricky. I'm not going to stop like mid argument, at 1am, let's take a selfie and tell the internet what the fighting about.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Megan Jayne Crabbe
It is weird. And it's been, it's been an experience for me dating someone who is also in this social media world. So previously, I was dating someone who was not at all, like didn't really care about social media. And now I'm dating someone who does similar things to me, and is a public figure, at similar events, etc, etc. And I know that people are invested in our relationship, and on the one hand, that gives me the warm fuzzies, and I love it, and I appreciate it. And on the other hand, it makes it tricky to navigate when he's being an arsehole. Or like, when things aren't things aren't going smoothly, and I'm not sure how to how to put that out there. And I don't wanna have to put a disclaimer on under every single post of us being like, by the way, we're not couple goals, we're not perfect
Hannah Witton
Do have people like open only speculating in your comments and in your DMs about the status of your relationship?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yes, yes, I do
Hannah Witton
I'm sorry.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Which when your relationship is in a good place, that's fine. When it's not, and it's like a bit more emotionally raw, that doesn't feel very nice.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've definitely seen, not on like your posts specifically, but just like as a general trend of just like, this person's not been in your photos for weeks, like have you broken up? And like, all of this kind of stuff, because people like, people go hard, like people are like little investigators into other people's lives, which I always just find so strange.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I will say that for kind of every person that I get being a bit invasive and coming into those questions, I also get lots of people being like, babe, your life is your life. You don't owe us anything, which is lovely.
Hannah Witton
Yes. Yeah. I feel like as I've grown up online, I've gotten more of that, because my audience have also grown up. And I think also because like they're living their lives, and they're like, oh, I get it. Like, we're all just living our lives.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, absolutely. It kind of feels like, because I would say that you were definitely in an early wave of kind of creator/influencer/social media person, right. And it feels like at the start, it was also new and exciting and almost like the scramble to reach these people who were suddenly celebrities, basically like the new era of celebrities. And because of that, there was no, like etiquette, there were no rules.
Hannah Witton
No, I think it still is almost
Megan Jayne Crabbe
In a lot of places, yeah, for sure. Things like boundaries, and things like, okay, what's an acceptable way to treat this person who is actually a human? Like, how invasive should be? How respectful should we be? I do feel like that has developed slightly over time from where we were.
Hannah Witton
Oh, for sure. Honestly, like, when I think about how things have changed online, I'm actually so glad that I never had a serious enough relationship at the beginning of when I was kind of online that I wanted it to be public. Like I dated a lot, but nothing was ever nothing ever got to the point where I was just like, okay, gonna make this official, like tell the internet. And I'm honestly so grateful because I just I'm just like, I don't know how I would have navigated that as a 21 year old.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
No
Hannah Witton
Like, I think it would have been a entirely different experience
Megan Jayne Crabbe
It's hard to navigate now as a 28 year old. What's your litmus test for whether you share something?
Hannah Witton
Oh, well, I do always ask Dan, because he's not an online person at all, really. And so if I'm sharing something that includes him, like, if it's a photo, or an anecdote, or whatever, I'll just like, make sure to double check with him. So that's, he's part of the litmus test, obviously. And then a lot of it is just like, is this like, a funny story? Or just like, I don't know, because I also really changed a lot of where I share stuff. So like, I have a private Discord server for my patrons, and I think of that as like this big, fun, private group chat. And so a lot more stuff goes in there than it does like on Instagram, or Twitter, or something.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
The people who are the most invested in you
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Which feels weird, because then they're also the people who are paying. So it is like, this weird, not weird relationship, but it's interesting, but we're all very like, aware of it. But it's more like, I want a quality response to the things that I'm sharing, not just like putting something out into the void for the sake of sharing something.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean, yeah, in its most basic sense, they are the ones that paying, but you could equally spin that and say, okay, they're the people who care about you enough that they would like sit down and have a coffee with you and they'd buy your coffee because they want to hear about your life. Like yeah, that's literally what they're doing.
Hannah Witton
And I told them, actually I don't know if you know, unless I don't know if you've seen online. But I told my patrons I was pregnant, like a week and a half before I told the rest of the internet. And guess what, they all kept it secret because they're legends. They're respectful, you know, they're good people.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I mean, they could have gone to the Daily Mail with that real quick. There you go, 100 quid.
Hannah Witton
I'd hope I'd get more than that. Come on, my news is worth more than that. Do you have a litmus test for what you decide to share?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Um, I think I just ask myself, honestly, what am I trying to get out of this? Like, that's a very interesting thing as a person who puts things on the internet, being honest with yourself about your motivation. And that's not to say that I'm perfect. Like, honestly, I think sometimes everyone just wants to be told they look hot, or, you know, get some kind of validation on something. But when it comes to relationship stuff, is this a message that I think is going to be helpful? Is it honest? Is it making my relationship stronger? If it's if it's a nice thing, why don't I say that to my partner's face instead of putting on the internet? So that that happens, I reckon more often than posting it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And actually, that's an interesting, like, I don't know. But there's two ways of looking at that because you're like, oh, is this like sending a good message? But then also, there can be that pressure, especially, I guess for people who, like you, who are posting about like, important issues and things, do you feel like every single post has to have a message? Do you know what I mean?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I have felt like that before, yeah, absolutely. I thought I had to crack out that super deep wisdom every single evening. I don't feel like that so much anymore. It's also it's just not a sustainable way to be on the internet. You can't have a wise opinion about everything that's just like, not how humans work.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm just like, I'm dry, guys. There's no opinions here today. Just recycled, old opinions.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Absolutely. We'll take it back to what social media was in the star,t and just say what you have for lunch and call it a day.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What did you have for lunch?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I haven't had lunch yet.
Hannah Witton
I had leftover Chinese takeout.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Lovely, I'm probably going to get a bagel.
Hannah Witton
That's where I'm at. Oh, I love a good bagel. I wanted to ask you about how your relationship with the body positive movement has changed. Change of topic, but I'm really interested to hear, because you also recently like, changed your whole Instagram handle away from bodyposipanda to your name, which I feel like is a rite of passage for a lot of people online
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, maybe. I'm still like, was that the right decision? Not sure.
Hannah Witton
I think it was, I support you
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Okay, cool. Thank you, thank you. How's my relationship changed? I think the name change really marked a shift in my relationship with social media in general, that had been percolating for about a year, I would say, I really went on quite a long process of unpacking the way I saw social media, and the way I saw myself on it, what I owed, what was owed to me, my boundaries, you know, all of this I, I really dug into it for a long time. And when I moved away from being bodyposipanda, it almost felt like renewing a commitment to myself, to allow myself to show up as human, and as not perfect, not always going to have an amazing opinion about everything, not always going to get it absolutely right, not gonna live up to a million people's expectations of me. I'm just Megan. I am a human woman who sometimes has opinions. And in terms of, you know, the body positive community, I had put an immense amount of pressure on myself over the years to always speak for everyone. And I will try and do that as much as possible, but there's a point where you turn yourself inside out, because it's not possible. It is not possible to speak for every person, from every experience, and background, and marginalization, and identity, when you are just you and I really did my best for so long. And it was crushing, like the weight of that pressure was crushing at times. So much so that I couldn't show up. I was scared to look at my phone. I lost people who I thought were my friends who weren't my friends, you probably know how it goes, and now I'm just trying to grant myself more humanity, and forgiveness, and gentleness on the internet. Does that answer the question?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also what you're saying about like that pressure to include everyone, I think it comes from like a really good place, obviously. I don't know, I don't know if this is a perfect like comparison, but one thing that I've heard in like, the marketing world, is that when you try and include everyone, you include no one. And I do wonder if that like actually works when you're talking about things like social justice movements and inclusivity, in terms of like, diversity and stuff. But that always kind of like is in the back of my head of like, well, if you are trying to include everyone, then actually like, are you even able to like address specific issues? And like who are you actually talking to?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Absolutely. I think it's a, it needs a whole lot of nuance, doesn't it? Because fair enough, if you're putting something out that you're claiming is for everyone and about everyone, then you have to walk the walk, like you have to actually do that
Hannah Witton
And there's always gonna be some people who were like, that's not for me.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, true, true, true
Hannah Witton
I do not relate
Megan Jayne Crabbe
And if you're just one person who's just, I don't know, writing something about their own life, and their own perspective, no, you aren't, you are not going to include everyone. And it's that line, isn't it, between requesting inclusion and falling into what about ism.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Like, it's completely okay to be to be pointing out, hey, you know, I think maybe you've missed, you've missed this group of people, or it'd be nice to see this, if that person is claiming to include everyone. And then just being that person who's like, well, what about this group? What about these people? What about me? On everything, and you know what sis, it's not always about you, I'm just gonna say it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and actually, when I had a lot of the kind of like, what about ism? I'm like, good point. Go strfdxzart that conversation, then.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Oh, my God. Yes. Classic. My absolute favorite used to be, you know, the men who come into feminist spaces, and give it the what about, what about men's issues? What about men's body positivity? And I was like, okay, if you genuinely cared about that issue, you would go and start that and do that yourself. But no, no, you just use it to derail what's happening for other genders?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's highly frustrating.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I feel like I've got a bit like agitated now, I need to calm calm down.
Hannah Witton
We can calm. Well, actually, I wanted to talk with you about mental health because you recently started opening up about your recent mental health stuff. And I wondered, like, obviously I'm always obsessed the sex and relationships aspect of things and so like, how, how have you found that mental health impacts those things? But then also, I wondered if, obviously, you're not like out the other side and like, it's always a process and stuff. But do you have any, like, advice to impart on people in terms of like, telling their partner about mental illness that they might be going through? Or for a partner who might be receiving that information, how to support someone through mental illness?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Those are both very good questions. Very good questions. I think, we'll start with the second one, I mean, I'm in a relationship that is very, very, very honest and open, and we have feelings check ins, like, nearly every single day, sometimes too much. Sometimes we talk about feelings too much. So it was never like, I had to explain it. You know, my partner has his own mental health stuff as well. We've kind of been through the depression wringer, one at a time, and just been more patient. And I think that's it, it is about understanding that that person isn't going to be their regular version of themselves for a while, maybe, you know, they're maybe not going to be as enthusiastic, they're not going to find joy in the same things. They're not going to react the way you would expect them to, and trusting that if you stick it out with them, and support them, and show them love and kindness, eventually that will change and they'll start to find those regular ways again. And Kenny has been really, really wonderful at that, and I'm incredibly grateful for all the ways that he supported me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I think in terms of sex and sexuality, again, if you have that open dialogue, where you're consistently checking in with your partner about how you're feeling about life, and about yourself, and about sex, you know, it's, it's in there, it's included. I know so many people who would just essentially push through and carry on with their like sexual life in the same way that they were before, even if they were really struggling, they weren't feeling it, they weren't present. And that that makes me sad. I don't want anyone to have to do that, and I don't think any loving partner would want that for you either.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think we need to normalize that our sex lives, and our desires, and our sexuality, and all of that kind of stuff, it like ebbs and flows throughout our lifetime, and expecting your sex life, like, say with one specific partner to like, be what it is, and stay the same throughout your entire relationship, it's just completely unrealistic. And it might be mental health stuff that means that it's like not a priority, or the things change, or it could be just like, other things, like other life stuff that just like means that, you know, you're not having sex as much as you were, or like you're feeling slightly differently about, like, I don't know, like, what turns you on and things like that. Yeah, I want us to kind of normalize those things changing. One of the things that I always hear a lot from people is like, oh my God, my desire, my libido is completely plummeted, like what's wrong with me? And I'm like, what's going on in your life? And they're like, well, we just moved house, and my partner changed jobs, and we've got a new baby. And I'm like, ooh, I wonder why your desire has plummeted. Those things all sound likely could be causes, but not necessarily like to blame. Like, there's nothing bad or wrong happening to you right now.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
None of it's linear.
Hannah Witton
Oh, god, no, nothing. Nothing is linear, and everything is temporary. It's honestly, what I've learned over the last couple of years.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yep. Yep.
Hannah Witton
So I've got some questions from people on Instagram, who want to know some stuff from you. And maybe me too, if I, if I also know some stuff. But yeah, someone asked, how to maintain a body positive mindset when NHS GPs use BMI and tend to fat shame?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Oh, it's difficult, it's difficult. And there's, there are lots of very good resources about this that other people have written that I will point to as well. I would say first and foremost that there is a few things to understand, the first being that fatphobia within the medical profession is abundant, and that's not to say that doctors are X, Y, Z bad people, it's just that is how they have been trained. The current way that medical professionals learn is fat phobic, it is weight based, it's not health at every size. So they are going to be bringing that to you. But the second thing there to note is that you deserve to feel safe, and understood, and listened to, when you go to the doctor and you're allowed to advocate for yourself, you are allowed to question why weight has to be the focus, you are allowed to say, you know, is there another treatment option that you think would be helpful in this scenario? If they're asking you to hop on the scales for something, you're allowed to say you prefer not to. Is it absolutely strictly necessary? You know, often when they're prescribing a medication, and they need to get the dosage right, that would be why they weighed you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but you don't need to know. Like, you could ask them to not tell you what the scale said as well.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, absolutely. And you can, you can, and you should be able to say to a doctor, I have struggled with body image, I'm working on having a better relationship with myself, and I'd appreciate if we could, you know, look at my situation through a weight inclusive approach. And you know, Health at Every Size has some brilliant formats that you can even print out and send to your doctor saying, I would like for this to be weight inclusive, weight neutral.
Hannah Witton
And for those who don't know, Health at Every Size is a book/movement/website.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, there we go. And the resources are probably on the website.
Hannah Witton
Awesome. And another thing like you said, about the advocating for yourself, that is always easier said than done. Especially like if you've just been to a doctor's appointment by yourself. And I think because there's like a power imbalance there, like, they're the expert, they're the person with the knowledge, you're the patient, you're going for help. And then they say something that just completely throws you off and you feel like you can't challenge them because they're the expert, they're the authority in that room. And so if you are able to bring someone along with you, who can, even if they're not gonna like, necessarily be like, hang on a second, doc. Even if they're not going to go like all of that way, they can at least be there as another pair of eyes and ears so that you don't feel like, for lack of a better word, you don't feel like you're going crazy when you're like, I think the doctor fat shamed me, but maybe I'm wrong. You know, you can get into like a cycle like that. But if there's somebody else there goes, no, no, no, that that is what happened, that can feel really validating and help you then the next time you go to, like you said, come up with a bit of a battle plan.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, for sure. Or if someone can't go with you, just imagine a little mini me and a mini Hannah on your shoulder.
Hannah Witton
You've got this. Yeah. And, and, and also, like you said, kind of like, unfortunately, it is part of like a bigger, systematic problem. You can always ask for another doctor and second opinions as well. Right, somebody asked, how do you believe people when they tell you you look good, but you don't believe them? I feel like this question is like my entire teenage life in terms of giving compliments to friends of like, hey, you look great. And them just be like, no, I don't. And I'll be like, I was just being nice.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yes, I think so many so many times, it's a trained response, isn't it? We're not supposed to accept a compliment. We're supposed to kind of bounce it off onto something like self deprecating, like, oh, me? No, I barely slept. Or like, oh, this outfit? No, it's so old. That's a tricky one, isn't it? I think there's two layers to this. I think, first of all, it's never gonna matter how many compliments other people give to you if you haven't done the body acceptance, self acceptance, work yourself. And unfortunately, that's just that's just the long and short of it, and it's not an easy fix. You know, it takes years to unlearn what diet culture and beauty standards do to us, and to see ourselves as beautiful. Unfortunately, it's a hard long thing. But the second layer is, why does that have to be the way we relate to each other and the way we compliment each other? If your friend giving you compliments about your appearance brings up uncomfortable things for you, why can't you ask that you focus, you know, your conversations or your compliments around who you are as people? Or why don't you find something very specific about what you love about them as a person and compliment that instead? Because, you know, some people believe that either way, any compliment about your appearance is still making you focus on your appearance, and it's not necessary most of the time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, even if it is something positive. And I think what you said about the believing it is something that you have to work on separately to receiving any compliments and stuff. But you can still, whilst you're doing that, retrain your reflex to like you said, like, brush off the compliment, or, or deny it, or reject the compliment, and try and train a new reflex where if somebody compliments you, you just say thank you. And, and then even if you're even if you don't believe it still, that's, that's fine. But just saying thank you, I think what you'll notice is that the person who then gave you the compliment will also then feel really good, because you accepted their compliment. And then that will then make you feel really good because you've made them feel good. And it's it's it's like this positive reinforcement thing, so and that positive interaction can still happen even if internally you you don't, you're not quite ready to believe what they've said about you. And then if you want to take it to the next level, one thing that I used to do when I was at university if someone complimented me, I'd be like, you're welcome.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
You're welcome for my presence
Hannah Witton
Exactly, that's the next level.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I love that. I mean, it's taken me the level that I'm at now, it's taken me seven years to get here. But a few weeks ago, a friend told me I looked great and I said, I agree with you.
Hannah Witton
Nice, like I know. Yeah, and also the things like the your welcomes, and I know, and I agree with you, they can also be done like in gest. If it's like if it's somebody that you know who's a friend like that could also be like a very funny thing. And again, just create like a positive interaction that you've just had with somebody.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Okay, somebody asked, how to make peace with knowing your body and mental health will never be perfect? Ready to unpack what perfect is?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
I mean, big question, if that person finds the answer, feel free to slide into my DMs. That's lifelong stuff, isn't it? Like, it's not, there is no quick fix for that. I've been in therapy every week for five years, I've been in the body positive community for seven years, I am still finding new stuff to unpack. And I think that's, that's just the way it is. And, Hannah, if you want to share some gems about, you know, unpacking what, what perfect is, then over to you.
Hannah Witton
I mean, it doesn't exist, for one. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about before about things ebbing and flowing. Because, for me, my biggest lesson in terms of my body never been perfect was like, I had probably what was going to be, for me, the closest that, for me, again, specific just for me,. The closest that I would ever have gotten to a stereotypical beauty standards level perfect body, which I'd never would have got to because I'm only five foot, so like, it was never gonna happen. But the closest I ever got was pre surgery, right. And then I had like life changing surgery, and now that old body of mine is completely inaccessible to me now. And that is obviously, like an extreme example. But one thing that it really taught me is that like, again, everything is temporary. Even like the state that your body is in currently, because you don't know what's around the corner. And so yeah, that kind of experience really helped me with this just acceptance of letting go of a lot of control over how I look, what my body is going to do, and also just like, okay, I had this like, life altering surgery that's completely changed my body. But then also, like, people get into accidents all the time. We're all constantly aging. I'm currently pregnant, like that is going to change my body as well. And it's just like, accepting that no matter how much you try and even strive for a perfect body, your body is on its own journey, irrelevant of what you want it to do, your body is going to be doing its own thing, life is going to be taking a toll on your body in its own way that you have no control over. And this might all be sounding really morbid, but it's it's helped me in my acceptance of just like, hey, there's no such thing as perfect. There's no point in striving for it because like you just don't know.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, yeah. And also, let's not forget that in terms of bodies, and in terms of mental health, the idea of perfect that we're supposed to be striving towards literally doesn't exist. It is made up, it is sold to us by a massive corporation, it's photoshopped. It is just it does not exist in real life. So you could spend your entire life trying to fit into that, or you could let it go.
Hannah Witton
Let it go. Just gonna go off on one. My favorite is the French translation of that song, which is translated back into English, it is liberated, delivered, and then it's the cold is the price of my freedom, is the translation. And I've just like go off French Elsa, like -
Megan Jayne Crabbe
That is philosophical
Hannah Witton
It's incredible. Yep, it's a lot. The French are a lot. I love you guys. Kind of on a similar note with like, the mental health stuff as well, and what we were talking about before with social media stuff. Somebody asked, how does being IG famous impact your daily life and mental health?
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Again, has changed a lot over the years. It is undeniably a weird thing. I often describe it as, it can be a very charmed existence. It can be very shiny, and very fun, and you get to do cool stuff. However, if you don't have a support system in place to go with you through it, it can fuck you up. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear here.
Hannah Witton
You can absolutely say that.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Cool. It can fuck you up and it did. It did. It has done, it has fucked me up at points over the last seven years. And it's all been a learning curve, and it's been a lot of therapy. These days, I'm in a much much much healthier place with it. I have more boundaries, I have more things in my life that are just for me that I don't put on the internet. I spend less time there, I have a stronger sense of myself. This is the thing, if you are kind of just like a regular person, and then one day, there's hundreds of thousands of people looking at you, listening to you, ready to tell you exactly what they think of you when they have never met you and they actually don't know you. If you don't have a rock solid sense of who you are, it is so easy to absorb all of those negative opinions, all of that criticism, and start believing that about yourself, and start living your life just to please all of those people. And I did that for a very long time, and it really has taken a lot of work, and a lot of therapy, to know myself well enough that people on the internet can't convince me I am who I'm not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's really great. And sucks that it's something that you've had to kind of like, struggle through to get there. But also, like you were saying, because all of that was probably happening in the much more early days of social media and Instagram and stuff. And so hopefully, now that we've got, like a generation of people who have gone through it, and can kind of go, this is my experience of it, and this is kind of like how I now have a healthy relationship with social media. What I hope that does is that for people who are just like, coming up on social media, and suddenly finding that they have an audience, part of me like hopes that for them, it's easier because there are examples of what can turn it really sour and how it can actually kind of have a have a good relationship with your life in general.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Yeah, I hope so as well. I think, as well, that's gonna take kind of more supportive relationships between like us all as creators, and like actually being on each other's team. And, you know, it's, it can be such a competitive industry, and just recognizing that, you know, we're going through quite a weirdly unique situation together, and we could be there for each other
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for sure. And that's, that's really helped me as well in this weird and wonderful world. Well, thank you, Megan. We really went around around lots of different topics there, so I appreciate you chatting with me. So where can people find you online? You also have a newsletter, plug away.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Come find me @meganjaynecrabbe on Instagram, @meganjcrabbe on Twitter, and my newsletter is on substack. You can find the link in my Instagram bio. It's called Is it just me or ... and it is where I overshare things about my personal life, rant about bodies, sex, internet, all of these good fun things. I'm really enjoying making it. And yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure you'll figure out what's find me, if you really wanted to.
Hannah Witton
It's great. It's basically like lots of personal essays from Megan about all of these topics and more that we discussed here. And yeah, thank you all so much for listening and see you soon. Bye.
Megan Jayne Crabbe
Bye.