Escaping Compulsory Heterosexuality and Dating with Chronic Fatigue with Megan Moore | Transcript
CW: eating disorders 22:42 - 26:59
Find the episode shownotes here!
Megan Moore
I can only talk about my own experiences. I can't speak for anyone else. And my experience is that the women loving women sex does go on for ages.
Hannah Witton
Even if you have chronic fatigue?
Megan Moore
Yeah, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Megan Moore
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty great.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies.
Hello, welcome back to Doing It. Today is a very special episode because the day this episode is published, 12th of May, is ME Awareness Day. And my assistant, Megan, who works with me on a lot of the behind the scenes operations here at Doing It podcast, with my YouTube channels and newsletter as well, has ME and so Megan is stepping out from behind the scenes and social media today to come on the podcast and chat with me all about her disability, her sexuality as a lesbian, eating disorders and how all of those things intersect for her. We talk about what ME is and how it's affected Megan throughout her life, childhood crushes and how she somehow managed to escape a compulsory heterosexuality (kind of). We get into Megan's experiences with dating and relationships at university with ME, as a lesbian, biphobia in lesbian communities. And we answer your questions about if the lesbian stereotype of sex going on for hours still applies if you have ME, and do orgasms really help with chronic pain?
Thank you so much to Megan, for joining me for this episode. Definitely check out her Instagram if you like books and gay things. And of course, thanks to Megan, in general for working on this podcast with me, the shownotes, the transcripts and social media, I wouldn't be able to do all of this without her. And I also wouldn't be able to do all of this without my patrons. We are slowly making our way to 1000 patrons Oh my goodness. And so if you'd like to support this podcast and join our community of sex nerds, and to help us reach this goal, then please check out over at patreon.com/hannahwitton, you get early access and ad free episodes of this podcast among lots of other great perks. And if we hit 1000 patrons, I want to bring a video element to the podcast too. So you'd be helping towards making that a possibility. And reaching more people with these conversations exploring the world of sexuality, relationships, and our bodies. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk and please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And without further ado, here is the fabulous Megan.
Megan, you are longtime listener. First time guest.
Megan Moore
That is true true. That is true.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. For those who don't know, Megan works with me and actually does the shownotes and transcripts that episodes and the social media. The woman behind it all. It's good to have you on.
Megan Moore
It's good. It's good to be on. I'm excited to see what this looks like from this end.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're now experiencing getting from like all parts of the process of podcast making now
Megan Moore
Nothing is hidden from me.
Hannah Witton
So we wanted to do this episode together because is it ME Awareness Month? Or is it ME Awareness Day? One of the two.
Megan Moore
I think it's ME Awareness Day. And also within the month, I think.
Hannah Witton
Around the time when this podcast is coming out it is ME Awareness Day. And you have ME.
Megan Moore
I do, I do have ME.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So I think a good place to start would be what is ME?
Megan Moore
So ME is hard to define whether you have it...
Hannah Witton
Does it stand for anything?
Megan Moore
Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, which is a fancy way of, as far as I'm aware, saying like parts of your brain get inflamed I think. It's been a while since I had this explained to me. And then the other word, I used to think there was a difference between the two terms but it's also known as CFS for chronic fatigue syndrome.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because I've heard those two be used interchangeably. Okay, they are the same thing, right?
Megan Moore
Yes.
Hannah Witton
And so, yeah. What is it?
Megan Moore
It is a chronic illness that people define both as a neurological and part of your immune system. So chronic fatigue syndrome is a solid overview because it's like, the best way I can describe it for people who haven't experienced it is like, you know, when you've had a really bad flu, but you're not, you're not better enough to actually do anything in the world at all, you're still sort of at the pancake in the bed stage. But you're not, you don't have any of the flu symptoms, you just feel like you've been hit by a truck. Just that. Your body just starts doing that.
Hannah Witton
Is that your kind of like neutral state?
Megan Moore
To various degrees? Yeah, like, definitely always feels like I'm getting over some, like, I've just had a cold, even if I haven't. So, the main symptom that you get, like checked for when you are being assessed for ME is like, post exertional malaise. So it's, do you get disproportionately tired if you've done even, like, the smallest amount of effort at something, whether it's physical or mental, like you are...
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's interesting, that it's mental as well.
Megan Moore
Yeah. And for ages, because this is my second time in the depth of it, of the ME. And so there was sort of a 10 ish year gap, kind of, so when I went back round, the second time round for like, just confirming over and rediagnosis a lot of the medical terms had moved on. So this time round, people are saying like, yes, it does, like mental effort also counts. Rather as before it was very, like, it only really counts if you move around.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, I feel bad as somebody who doesn't have chronic fatigue syndrome, where like, you feel mental exertion physically as well, like,
Megan Moore
Yeah, yeah,
Hannah Witton
So that makes sense that it would also be exacerbated if you had something like ME. And that's also so interesting that you had like a 10 year remission of it, because I'm like, yeah, over here with my 10 year remission.
Megan Moore
I think it was, I think it was more like seven thinking about it. But yeah, like a chunk of time.
Hannah Witton
I'm curious, because obviously I want to get into like, relationships, and sex and all of that good stuff. But I'm also really curious about what the impacts of that kind of like remission time was, in terms of like, perspective on... Everyone, I feel like, experiences this stuff differently. But what, a word that often comes up for me is like loss and grief. And so when you have experienced being a "healthy" person, and then when you are no longer "healthy" person. Did you ever feel that kind of grief for it? And like also, if you did, how have you tried to like not let that get you down?
Megan Moore
Yes, I did. I definitely had that period. I like I still do sometimes. And it's been so, I, this sort of, this like relapse or this time round in the pits of it. This started in late 2017. And I'm still sometimes like, it sucks that my body doesn't work. But definitely around the, when it became clear, like okay, so I had ME, I was diagnosed with ME at about 15, basically homeschooled myself, so that I could get my A levels and stuff. My GCSEs and my A Levels. And then I went to university, dropped out of university because of ME, went to a different university, much less high academic stress version, and sort of slowly got better during, sort of, around my like, early 20s 22/23. And then for like, a few years in there, it was, I would say I would still be classed as having ME but it would only show up for things like it would be the post exertional malaise, that would be the main thing like I would have to just keep an eye on what I was doing. And if I like overdid it some days, I'd be like, 'oh, I just need to like write tomorrow off'. Just sort of, like if you've moved house or something or you know, say taken a lot of boxes to the post office and the next day like my arms are noodle.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Energy Management.
Megan Moore
Yeah. So it would be more like if I got sick, it would take me a couple of days extra to recover. Or if like I did something outside of my usual realm of like physical activity, I would need some rest. So I was sort of used to that. Which was miraculous after like, five years of essentially being housebound. And then, yeah, around the end of 2017, it became clear that like, this time wasn't going to be a just cancel everything for a couple of weeks and wait it out, that it was going to be another like, this is, you're in it for the long haul.
Hannah Witton
That's that word chronic,
Megan Moore
Yeah. So it was really around that point where? Yeah, where it was becoming clear to me that it was this was it. This was it, rather than like, something I was going to work through and get back to how I was, that it was just, it felt like a setback. Because I'd had it so severely when I was younger. And now when it came back again, properly. I was an adult, it felt like a regression. Like I have to go back to being like 17 year old me, no one wants to go back to being 17 year old them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's so many parallels as well, I think with our experience, because most of my flare ups with colitis was when I was a teenager, like a child and a teenager. And then I was an adult when it hit me again.
Megan Moore
That was definitely like, when I like found your content. It was very like, look! It me! Sort of.
Hannah Witton
It is interesting. I feel like when it comes to chronic illness and disability stuff, everyone I've ever spoken to like just how unique everyone's experiences are, but then you always do find like relatable aspects of like, Oh, yeah, that like hospital experience, or that like timeline experience. Like, I don't know, I just find it really comforting. And also I love talking about medical shit.
Megan Moore
Yeah, it's, yes same. I've always seen it was, I was the kid that was like, I will collect all of the like, the horrible histories but for science.
Hannah Witton
Yes. Oh my god.
Megan Moore
I was just like, yes. I wanna learn all of the gross body bits.
Hannah Witton
So when you had ME as a teenager, because obviously you experienced the symptoms before you were diagnosed?
Megan Moore
Yeah
Hannah Witton
Like, how was figuring out your sexuality and being sick? Is that something that, did you even, were you even thinking about your sexuality at that point because you were sick?
Megan Moore
I feel like when people ask about my sexuality, so I'm a lesbian for people who don't know. And I never really feel like I had to figure out my sexuality in any way. Like, I didn't have really, the only two periods of like, 'oh, I actually have to think about this' was when I first started dating a girl. And I was like, 'oh, wait, I'm gonna date a girl and the world is gonna see me like, dating a girl.' Like it's gonna be something for other people. Not just for me.
Hannah Witton
Just that awareness of how like, yeah, of being watched. Ugh yeah.
Megan Moore
Right. So yeah, so you, just sort of have to picture 18 year old me watching Skins fan vids on loop being like, what if I can never get married?
Hannah Witton
Oh, my goodness. Is that like, Naomi and Emily?
Megan Moore
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Was it those two?
Megan Moore
It was set to Love Story by Taylor Swift. And I watched that a lot of times in the dark, panicking. And then I was like, well, there's nothing I can do about it. It's not like I'm gonna date a man so I can just move on.
Hannah Witton
Hold up is what you're saying that comphet never got you?
Megan Moore
Literally never. I described it as like, I sort of discovered that everyone else wasn't gay. Because when you're little, you assume that your experience is universal, right? And you assume that everything that you know and are doing and it's just what everyone else is doing. Like if your body does something you're like everyone's body does this because how can it possibly be different? I am the whole world. So I I knew that I liked girls more than, even like as a kid, it wasn't obviously, I didn't know about any of the sexual side of it for a while.
Hannah Witton
I dunno, I had crushes on boys from the age of four, like I knew.
Megan Moore
Oh, no, I fully knew it was like, yeah, I knew. It just wasn't like, you know, the age of four, I wasn't like, I'm gonna think about this. Like, I wasn't connecting it with sex.
Hannah Witton
It was just like, they're pretty and I want to spend a lot of time with them and I want to be their friend. And yeah, maybe hold hands.
Megan Moore
Yeah, I want them to like me best. And I want to look at them all the time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Wanting to be their favourite.
Megan Moore
Yeah, I just want to be their favourite. I knew that I liked girls best. And that like all my favourite characters were girls, all of the people I wanted to spend time with were girls and that boys were just sort of there. They were, ya know, there doing stuff.
Hannah Witton
I love it
Megan Moore
And then, but because all of the media especially like, so I grew up in the 90s. So all of the media I was getting was very like, and then you marry a man. And you kiss men. I'm like...
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so how did you understand that? If you were like, I like girls, surely this is everyone's experience? Then why are all these girls marrying men in the movies?
Megan Moore
I assumed. Okay, so also, I'm autistic. So it could possibly be connected to that. I don't know. But like, I assumed that everyone, all the girls liked girls best. And that this was just an obvious fact that everyone knew and no-one talked about.
Hannah Witton
I've heard other people say this.
Megan Moore
But they just married men, or like dated men, because that's what you were supposed to do. So you just said that you liked that while you actually liked girls best. And everyone knew that was what was everyone was thinking.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like I've heard Alayna have that, say that she had that experience as well. But surely like, we all know that girls are the best?
Megan Moore
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Surely we all fancy women.
Megan Moore
Right. And especially because like primary school, the like friendship lines can be so divided. And you're like 'ew boys'. And I was at a primary school that was predominantly girls, because it was a primary school attached to an all girls secondary. So it was mostly, it was mixed gender, primary and all girls secondary. So it was mostly girls in the primary school. So I didn't really have a lot of contact with boys. And like, as like, a five, six year old, being like, boys are smelly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so then you're like, why would anyone like that?
Megan Moore
Yeah. And then sort of around the time where people... Yeah, it just felt very abrupt to me around like, 10 when people were like, 'Oh, I have a crush on boy'. And I was thinking Why? What is appealing about them? Have you seen boys?
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love it. Yeah, so I guess when you were like, a teenager and experiencing like your ME symptoms at the same time did like how did that, like play with, I guess not even not figuring it out but figuring other people's sexualities out.
Megan Moore
I guess I'd sort of done that bit by the time I got, like, because I think that sort of happened properly around like, you know, like your six, year seven sort of 11/12 when people start noticing boys for the first time sort of around you, or like, that's what the age group was when it started happening to people that I knew. 'When it started happening', like, I don't know, like the fog came over them.
Hannah Witton
I mean, the hormonal fog
Megan Moore
The hormonal fog, where suddenly people think boys are attractive, I don't know. Yeah, so I guess I sort of done that then. So by the time I was like, dealing with being sicker than everyone, as opposed to just like, not liking boys, it was more like, I don't know, I feel like I hear a lot of people talk about like, oh and then they have to really consider, like really come to terms with like liking women and what it meant. And for me that was more like, oh this is always just a concrete fact. So I didn't have to really think about it in terms of connecting with the ME I was just dealing with the ME because I'm like, but like sort of like I have brown hair. I like girls. But I have to work on this thing that I don't understand.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then like, imagine if you did have to battle comphet at the same time as ME. You lucked out somehow.
Megan Moore
I really did. It never got me. It just never got, and I don't know how like I was exposed to the same media as everyone else. But it just felt like I don't like the boys and also I don't care.
Hannah Witton
What an aspiration, love it.
Hannah Witton
As you got older then like how did people who you dated react to your ME, like what kind of obstacles did you come across with dating especially like dating as in like the activity of it, obviously, it's a lot of energy, like, and even if you don't have a chronic fatigue syndrome then like, people often find dating exhausting.
Megan Moore
Yeah, I think again, it was like, so my, I first dated someone when I was at university for the first time, when we were both at Cambridge University, which is sort of a hothouse of like, no-one has any time or energy to do anything. There's this idea of like the Cambridge triangle where you can have two or three things, and it's like, sleep, good grades and a social life. And like...
Hannah Witton
Okay, I've heard of the triangle and you can only have two things in lots of other contexts. Yeah.
Megan Moore
Yeah. And that's like, that was the thing that people would say about Cambridge. So it was very, like, it was less like the ME was stopping me seeing people. It wasn't like, I would say, I can't do this, because I'm sick. I'd be like, I can't do this because I have like, five tons of Greek to translate in the next 20 minutes. It was always about the work rather than the ME. So I guess the only times it would come into play would when someone would be like, you have a free date, like a free afternoon today. And the girl I was dating, but you have a free afternoon today. I'd be like it looks like I have a free afternoon. But I just stayed up for 21 hours, like with a piece of Latin. So I need to be asleep.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Megan Moore
If I don't do that, I can't do anything next week. So that was the main issue. But because everyone else was also running on like so much work in such a short amount of time in such a high pressure situation. It wasn't as noticeable that I couldn't do as many things because everyone was making sacrifices and choices.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. And sort of it like that, like it kind of like disguised actually what you were really going through.
Megan Moore
Which is also why it took me so long to realise in Cambridge, that I was as sick as I was, because the the norm around me was like everyone is exhausted, everyone is overwhelmed. And so I was like, oh, it's just the same. I'm just the same, everyone is the same.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. I mean, if I were to start another podcast, you know, I would do one about like, productivity and organisation and there's like a whole conversations to be had around like toxic hustle culture and how like ableist it is.
Megan Moore
It really is, if you want to do an organisation podcast, I will fully be your co-host.
Hannah Witton
Maybe we can make it like a patron-only one. Oh my god, ideas, making more plans. Another thing that I wanted to talk about with you is also because you have had an eating disorder. I know some people always use the present tense for it. Even if they are recovered.
Megan Moore
It feels to me like something, currently it feels to me like something I will always use the present tense for like, even though I am significantly more recovered or like, along the recovery journey than I was, it doesn't feel, it still feels very present. It doesn't feel like a past thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess one thing I was curious about was how the relationship of the eating disorder with ME. I don't know if exercise was ever a part of your eating disorder. But I'm like that, that takes a lot of energy. And then like, that would surely impacted the ME. And so then you're in this like, horrible cycle.
Megan Moore
That's yeah, well that's it. The like, peak of the eating disorder was in the part of, was sort of in the ME dip where I was like, I guess, or peak where I was much better. So I was mostly focusing on like, my brain was like, Oh, you're physically feeling a bit better time to make that worse. But like, it would be, they're very often sort of, not co morbid, and that one provokes the other. But if you have, eating disorders are very much about control. When you have ME, you have very little control about what you can do when you can do if you can do something, if you can keep a plan that you've already made. And so it's an, I think you can, the... eating is a very, is a thing you can always control. It's something that you do every day, multiple times. And you can decide not to, I mean, obviously, you shouldn't. But like that's, it's something that you can control even when you can't control anything. So I think that's why they sort of play off each other like that. But yeah, as you say, if say you're not eating anything or you are over exercising that does not do your body any favours if you are already running on less energy. So yeah, I think I was lucky - "lucky". But yeah, the worst of the eating disorder happened in the part of my life where I was much more physically healthy than at other points. But I don't know if it would have made a huge difference to me at that point, because literally, the only thing I cared about was the eating disorder, it would not have mattered to me, what my body felt like.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so tricky as well, because like, when you mentioned that you also had an eating disorder, like, my brain was like, well, if you've got a chronic fatigue syndrome, like, it kind of made sense to me, because I was like, if your body means that, if what your body is doing means that you have to sit around, and because of the fatphobia in our society..
Megan Moore
Exactly!
Hannah Witton
... then you kind of like, and the toxic hustle culture, all of it! You feel like lazy for like, sitting around not doing anything. And then there's, you know, we're all drilled with this fear of like, what if you become fat, right?
Megan Moore
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Which, ah, like, I still honestly find that really difficult to shake. And I know that like, a lot of people, especially during the last year with lockdown. It's all of those fears of definitely like being present and a lot of people's lives.
Megan Moore
Oh, for sure. Like, I definitely have been like, what if I get lockdown fat and my wife has been like, one that's not a thing. It doesn't matter. Your body is your body. And also, your lockdown life is no different from your regular life. Because you, apart from like, people can't come to see you. Like that's basically it. You're fine.
Hannah Witton
You can't have visitors.
Megan Moore
Yeah, basically, I'm feel like sometimes I do feel very much like, you know, in Victorian novels where the women sort of are delicate flowers.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you're just sat there reading your book waiting for somebody to come knock on and be like, 'Hello I'm here to see Miss Megan'.
Megan Moore
Yeah, oh I've got a caller!
Hannah Witton
Oh I love it. Now they just have to be like outside your window throwing pebbles.
Megan Moore
Like you can't come in you've got the plague!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
Okay, I've got some questions from Instagram. The people are curious about some stuff. And they go into the sex stuff as well, which is why I was holding back a bit.
Megan Moore
Okay, okay.
Hannah Witton
Somebody asked oh where's the sex question? That was a really good one. Oh, here we go. This is it. Do you find the stereotype that women loving women sex goes on for hours problematic/ableist?
Megan Moore
I saw this obviously, I was looking at the questions.
Hannah Witton
You were spying. You were preparing.
Megan Moore
So I can only talk about my own experiences. Obviously, I can't speak for anyone else. And my experience is that the women loving women sex does go on for ages.
Hannah Witton
Even if you have chronic fatigue?
Megan Moore
Yeah, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Megan Moore
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty great. Um, so for me, it's either I can have sex or I can't have sex. There's not like a middle ground where I'm having some sex it's either yes or no. And so yeah, I don't I don't know if it's a problematic or an ablest idea overall. But it is, applicable to my life so I don't know if I'm just like, the snowflake in the crowd. Yeah, and I haven't spoken to a lot of my like, women loving women friends
Hannah Witton
It's so weird to say that out loud because I'm so used to seeing WLW written down and I was like, are you supposed to say it out loud? Or do we... What do we do?
Megan Moore
I say 'Wooloo' like the Pokemon
Hannah Witton
Okay, there we go. Let's go with that.
Megan Moore
And so you know, the Pokemon just appears every time I'm like, that feels right feels right. Thank you random Twitter user that I saw that from
Hannah Witton
Love it. That's so interesting to me though that yours is just like, I either have the spoons, or I don't have the spoons. Because for me I'm like, have the energy to do this kind of sexual activity but not this kind and I can, my energy like actually is a bit more like pick, like cherry pick what I'm up for in terms of like energy levels.
Megan Moore
Yeah. I hear that from other people as well. But I think there was another question somewhere that was like, Do you find that sex helps with chronic pain? I would like to register a complaint in that it does not. There's always felt like if you're googling sort of period cramps, natural relief, that sort of thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Megan Moore
That there are so many things and anecdotes and articles saying, like, Oh, just have an orgasm. Like it will make you feel better. It relieves the cramps. I'm like, no, it gives me cramps.
Hannah Witton
Because I guess like, cuz it's muscle contracting.
Megan Moore
Yeah, I don't know.
Hannah Witton
So yeah, maybe it's just like triggers even more for you.
Megan Moore
So it's very much like, when I'm thinking about, like, can I have sex? It's like, well, if I come, that's gonna, that's the rest of the day.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's fascinating,
Megan Moore
Right? So it's not even like, it's not about I can do this... Like I can do this activity or this activity. Because generally, it's about like, yeah, it would be like, if I have an orgasm today, can I continue on with my day? Or not? It's very binary.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting. Do you ever then purposefully have sex where you kind of like, restrict yourself from having an orgasm? Or are you just saying that's not worth it, then?
Megan Moore
That is not possible for me.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough. Fair enough. Do you know what, that's so interesting, though, that it doesn't work, well, for you, it doesn't work as like a pain relief. But also I guess it makes sense that it is also like a big energy spender as well having an orgasm. But one thing that I discovered after my surgery and having a lot of morphine. The kind of feeling that I would get because I was had a morphine drip, where I could like press it. Every five minutes, I was allowed to, the machine let me give myself another hit.
Megan Moore
Every 5 minutes?
Hannah Witton
It was like yeah, self-dosedging on morphine. But the feeling that I would get when I'd given myself a lot because I was in a lot of pain. It was like drowsiness, but then also like the relief of pain, and it was like this sinking back into the hospital bed feeling and like my eyes were closed, and I'd be like woozy. After having experienced that, now when I have an orgasm, it's the same feeling. I'm like, having an orgasm is like being on morphine. Like it's, but that's obviously me and my body's experienced of it. Because now, if I can't sleep, like having a quick wank and having an orgasm really helps me fall asleep. Because the morphine helped me fall asleep when I was like in pain and hospital It's so weird to me.
Megan Moore
Yeah, did it before like, if you wanked before you'd had the morphine experience, could it help you sleep?
Hannah Witton
I don't think I ever really needed it. And I never like or I never tried. Okay, I never like thought Oh, I can't sleep I have a wank. It was more like having a wank or like having an orgasm makes me feel the same as morphine did. Morphine helped me sleep. Let me try this to get back to sleep. So definitely, I do think it was like a post hospital experience thing that I started doing. But yeah, that's interesting that it doesn't, that it's the opposite for you in terms of pain. Whereas for me, well actually, I don't know if it relieves pain because I haven't been in pain and then like, tried to have an orgasm, but it does kind of give me that same like woozy, drowsy, sinking into the bed feeling afterwards. Interesting.
Megan Moore
It can make me fall asleep, though, because I guess my body is like you're hurting now.
Hannah Witton
That energy spent. You just spent loads of energy.
Megan Moore
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
This is a question. I don't know if you want to get into it. But somebody asked, Why do some lesbians avoid dating bisexuals?
Megan Moore
Oh, because biphobia is rampant everywhere, including circles that you really think it, like it shouldn't be. So I don't know why that is. But I feel weirdly guilty. Because the stereotype for like, within like the lesbian community or like the Wooloo community is that bi people haven't picked yet like, so don't date a bi person because they could pick they could decide they're not bi like, they'll suddenly be like, Oh, actually, just men, not you. And I feel bad about that because part of my sexuality journey, I guess was even though I knew that I only liked women or that I liked women much more in a completely different way than I've ever been interested in men, I would say that I was bi for years, because I thought that you had to like men in some way. So I guess that's where the comphet got me.
Hannah Witton
You didn't fully escape comphet!
Megan Moore
I felt like if I said that I was a lesbian, like, people wouldn't take me seriously, or like, this is going a bit deep, but like that I was too ugly to say I was a lesbian because I would be like letting the lesbian community down.
Hannah Witton
And that's just another like patriarchal bullshit where lesbians only exist to be like pretty women for men to oggle at.
Megan Moore
Right? And the like, if I looked like, I didn't want to say I was a lesbian if I looked like one of "those lesbians", and I'm thinking like, you know, like, short hair, plaid shirts, I'm wearing a plaid shirt right now. You know, like the sort of '90s image of like...
Hannah Witton
Like a butch lesbian rather than a femme lesbian.
Megan Moore
I didn't want to say that, because I felt like I would be negatively portraying the stereotype of like, this ugly woman who only liked women because she was ugly, which is obviously completely false and like a number of different horrible patriarchal levels.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But it sucks that that shit gets internalised as well.
Megan Moore
It really does. And so when I had my first girlfriend, I said, I was bi, and all of her friends, she and all of her friends were lesbians. And they were like, you're not really queer.
Hannah Witton
Oh, so you've like, experienced biphobia as a lesbian.
Megan Moore
Exactly. So I remember really specifically, we were sitting in her room one time with a bunch of her friends. And they were all lesbians. And I'm like so was I, but I could not deal with that yet, properly. And they were going around the room, ranking everyone in the room on how queer they were, like, who's who's the queerest in this room. And I was at the bottom because I, they said I liked men. So it made me less queer than anyone else in the room. And I, even at the time, I remember being like, it doesn't, and I was dating someone in that room, who also was a girl. And it was like, it's not, I don't understand that because I'm, that's my girlfriend.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Megan Moore
You know?
Hannah Witton
Well look at you now! A fully-fledged lesbian with a wife!
Megan Moore
So she, and my wife is bi.
Hannah Witton
Well there you go.
That really sucks.
Megan Moore
Though guess like, I don't know why. Just fear, I guess is the answer to all of the all of the questions about why do people act badly towards other people? But yeah, specifically, like, I don't understand biphobia, personally, because like, I when I, I guess, because I experienced it without being bisexual. It was very much like, I guess that's the only time that I that's the thing that I had to deal with in terms of like, working out my sexuality for myself. It was putting the label with the feeling because I was like, I can't say I'm a lesbian because of, you know, all of the reasons that aren't reasons and didn't make sense. Including, like, but I find men, some men. Like, I want to look at some of them. Like some men I find aesthetically appealing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I love the term aesthetic attraction for that.
Megan Moore
That's basically it. And I had like, I'd never heard of the term aesthetic attraction. I think it was, I was dating my wife, which was my girlfriend at the time. And she basically had to be like, look, do you want to have sex with any of these men? Would you really like, think about like them, like, touching you, you touching them. They are there shirtless. And I was like, ew, god, no!
Hannah Witton
There you go. That's the test.
Megan Moore
Yeah, and I had genuinely just never thought about it. Because obviously, I had thought about sex with women a whole bunch. And I'd just been like, I find men a certain genre of men, like, physically appealing, like, not physically appealing aesthetically, like I describe it, it's very much like it's like when you see art. It is that because I'm like, that is nice. That's good to look at. I don't want to do anything else with it. You just want to look at it.
Hannah Witton
Sometimes I find that the men who I am the most aesthetically attracted to are the ones that I am not romantically or sexually attracted to at all but maybe that's because I'm intimidated by their beauty, I'm not sure. I'm just like you're unattainable I'll just be aesthetically attracted to you.
Megan Moore
That's, that's so cool. Because I yeah, I'm like, mmm you have been chiseled beautifully for me to like a beautiful marble statue. No, no, don't come near me.
Hannah Witton
Waste of time. Yep, stay far away,
Megan Moore
Far away. But like maybe if you could just catch the light in a certain way that will be great.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love it. Somebody actually asked, what was the number one thing a partner did to make you feel comfortable with your disability? Coming back to the ME stuff again.
Megan Moore
I can't pinpoint one thing that... So the girl I was dating in Cambridge broke up with me because I quote wasn't managing my condition end quote, well enough. Whatever that means.
Hannah Witton
Sounds like you got fired.
Megan Moore
I got fired from being a girlfriend.
Hannah Witton
Sounds like a really formal reason.
Megan Moore
Yeah, so sorry to the Cafe Nero opposite King's College, but like, that's the breakup Nero.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Megan Moore
But then my wife. I genuinely, I can't say one thing that she's done, because it's all of them. Like she has been, she reacted to my being sick in a way that I didn't know people would or could.
Hannah Witton
We already together when your ME like, when it got bad again?
Megan Moore
Yes. Yeah. So we met while I was sort of, on the up from my worst bout around my A levels, we met when I was, like on the incline. And then so we started dating in the period of time where I was like, mostly okay, apart from those like, one offs. And so we were married when the like, this bout really took hold. And I was like, oh my god, she's like being really supportive while it's just being occasional. But like, What if she didn't sign up to marry like, a sick person? Like, what if this is too much. And she was like, stop being ridiculous. But yeah, I think having someone who saw me when I was sick, and said that I was sick, is one of the best things that she's done for me. Because so much of ME is not being believed or that's been been my experience. Like, doctors don't take it seriously. People, like, that aren't doctors don't take it seriously, family members thought that I was faking for ages. My school basically said I wasn't sick, and that I just needed to work harder. Like, that I was just like, skiving, that's what everyone at school said. So my entire experience of ME had been like, it wasn't real. Like, maybe I was making it all up, because no one else said it was real.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And if nobody believes you, and they don't treat you like a sick person, they're gonna have expectations for you.
Megan Moore
Yeah, it was very much that I was being held to healthy expectations while being unable to meet them. But then I would hold myself to those expectations, because that's what people said I should do. Apart from one doctor who was lovely, no one else.
Hannah Witton
I feel like so many people who have like a chronic illness or disability have that experience of like, all of the doctors except one. The one who believed me and got me on, like track for, like a proper diagnosis or treatment or whatever. Yeah, it's like, all docotrs are crap except this one.
Megan Moore
Yes. All of them are terrible, except this one who was excellent. So saying that I was sick when I'd be like I'm fine. And she's like, no you're not! So partially just believing me without me even asking if she believed me. Like, it wasn't ever a question. She was just already confirming that outside of my own experience.
Hannah Witton
I guess, even if you don't want to confirm it yourself as well.
Megan Moore
By the time I said, I think I'm having an ME relapse. She was like, aha, and then was like, wait, wait, you hadn't noticed?
Hannah Witton
She's like, yeah, I knew that weeks ago.
Megan Moore
Yeah. And, you know, she meant it in the most loving way. Just like, Oh, I really thought that you had noticed and I was like, No, no, not at all. I've been in denial.
Hannah Witton
Ah, yeah.
Megan Moore
So that and I think just like she takes it seriously without making me feel like a sick person, if that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's a risk of kind of feeling infantilised.
Megan Moore
Yeah. Like I remember in one of Jessie and Claud's videos, Jessica Kellgren-Fozard is it? And she was talking about how she and her wife, her wife handle this. And it was like, sometimes when Jessie's sick, like her wife helps her up the stairs but still like gropes her bum. So it's like, she's sick, but she's still cute. Like, she's still a wife.
Hannah Witton
Treating her like an adult like a sexual being like, yeah
Megan Moore
Like, it's like, I'm your wife. We just also have this to do like this extra as opposed to like, putting you in that, like infantilised...
Hannah Witton
Carer position?
Megan Moore
Yeah, I think it's that like, she never makes me feel like I am just a sick person. She, and if I try and refer to myself like that, she gets really angry, which is really nice. Because there are days like if I am at my worst when I am like, I am nothing but a burden. Like I am dragging her down I am what good am I contributing to the world? Etc, etc? And she's like, no, today, you're just sicker? It's fine. But also you look cute. Thank you! I'm like, I fully do not today but I will take it.
Hannah Witton
See you're still adding value to the world. So whilst we're talking about ME, someone else asked how to feel part of the queer community when dealing with severe ME?
Megan Moore
So I have, the community that I would say I am part of, is online, like that's where basically all my friends have always been, because I've been mostly in my house since I was about 14. So I, it was more like the community I was in turned out to be queer than...
Hannah Witton
Ooh surprise!
Megan Moore
Like it wasn't, it was just sort of like I sort of accumulated friends and they were queer, rather than, like, I don't know how to feel, like personally, I don't know how to feel part of a wider queer community in like physical space, because like, I can't go to like, Pride or, like Erin was saying, on that episode that went out today, but will it be in a couple of weeks ago when this it out. With Queerly Autistic, go back and listen to it, it's great.
Hannah Witton
Plug plug plug!
Megan Moore
It's fine, I did the transcript I'm allowed to plug it too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Megan Moore
My experience was very much like hers in that I found my community like through fandom. So I was meeting people through interests, and then a lot of other people who were like, we are queer, but we're not sure what to do with that, because we're 15, were also like, in the fanish melting pot sort of working it out. So I guess that's my advice for feeling part of a queer community is find a separate thing that you love. Go to those online spaces, and the queers will flock together.
Hannah Witton
You'll find each other.
Megan Moore
Yeah, like, I don't know what it's like to be part of a physical, to meet physically first and have that form the community because my little community, we are all the ones that I spend time with physically, because we all live near each other because we all moved to London.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also, I think it's worth adding that like, even if you find like specific queer spaces, even if they are online, you're not necessarily going to get on with everybody, right?
Megan Moore
Exactly!
Hannah Witton
You don't necessarily gonna, like have the same interests whereas like you said, if you are just involved in online communities, or communities that you can access of things that you're interested in, you may just find some queer folk along the way.
Megan Moore
Exactly. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And then you definitely have some shared interests as well.
Megan Moore
Rather than say, knowing a few queer people through your girlfriend and you don't have anything in common and they think that you're not queer because you're bi. Hypothetically.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just a hypothetical situation.
Megan Moore
Just a hypothetical situation that I've held on to for 12 years.
Hannah Witton
You just like want to go back to them just being like I was a lesbian all along!
Megan Moore
I was a lesbian the whole time and I think not that you can't quantify gayness but if you could I'd be gayer than all of you!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, there is no hierarchy but I am the gayest.
Megan Moore
Hierarchy is bullshit and goldstar lesbians are horrible fake thing that just exist to shame people. But if there was a ranking, I will be much gayer than all of you, suck it.
Hannah Witton
We love bitterness.
Megan Moore
Exactly, just bitter bitterness.
Hannah Witton
Just let it out. Let it out. It's healthy. Well, Megan, thank you so much for your time for your hard work on the podcast. Everyone send Megan lots of love. Where can they find you, you as an individual, not just the podcast on social media.
Megan Moore
If you're looking for me and not the podcast, I'm @moogflorin on Instagram and sometimes Twitter, and very occasionally, the same as a blog, but Instagram, Instagram is where you'll get me @moogflorin.
Hannah Witton
And if you want the comfy, lesbian bookish vibes, that is what you'll get there.
Megan Moore
Yeah, if you want comfy lesbian books, me yelling about people being gay in books. That's where you'll get it. Plus lots of pictures of my horrible cat who I love very dearly, but I'm pretty sure it's a cryptid.
Hannah Witton
Oh, bless. What did they ever do to you?
Megan Moore
So many, many things. Would you like the list?
Hannah Witton
Maybe blog about it? Put on the list, a list of grievances.
Megan Moore
List of grievances. Number one, my cat can jump from a sitting start to the top of a door.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's impressive. Yeah. That's really impressive. Well, Megan, thank you so much. I hope you've had a good time on the other side of the microphone on this podcast.
Megan Moore
It's been great. Wholeheartedly recommend! If anyone is also asked to be a guest, fully do it. Hannah's the loveliest.
Hannah Witton
I love it. And thank you all so much for listening. Bye!
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it. If you left a rating and a review. You can find shownotes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a global original podcast