Mindful Sex and Creating a Pleasure Practice with Portia Brown | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Portia Brown
Another pleasure practice might look like, okay, I live with my boyfriend, so let's say he is going off and he's doing something by himself. Great. Have the whole apartment to myself. I get to blast Ariana Grande, I'm gonna dress cute like I'm going on a date, but I'm not, I'm dating myself, and then make myself a bomb meal I'm going to eat it by myself, I'm going to get wine drunk, and then I'm going to go like fuck myself like that is a pleasure practice.
Hannah Witton
Yeah!
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies.
Hello, welcome to Doing It. I cannot wait to get straight into this episode with sex educator and sex coach Portia Brown from Froetic Sexology. We talk about why she became a sex educator and we get into all things pleasure: porn, solo sex. What does it mean to have mindful sex? What is a pleasure practice and how is it different to self care? And we chat about how to bring up sex toys with a partner and our feelings about the sexual wellness industry in general. I had so much fun talking to Portia, she is so warm, open, and passionate about sex education and pleasure. Definitely check her out on Instagram @froeticsexologu. And I really hope that you enjoy this episode. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @doing it podcast. You can support the podcast by becoming a member of The Common Room over on my Patreon, where you can chat with other sex curious folks and get early and ad free episodes, as well as bonus content and live streams. But But now without further ado, here is the wonderful Portia Brown.
Portia, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Portia Brown
I'm so great. I'm super, super excited to be here chatting with you. Thank you so much for having me.
Hannah Witton
I'm so excited to get into this. And first off, so your whole, like, identity and stuff online is froeticsexology. I have to ask what does that mean?
Portia Brown
Everyone asks me this question. I wish I had like a deep meaning. But the story goes something like this back in the day when I first like cut all my hair off and started growing it - for those of you listening who don't know what I look like, I have like kind of bigger curly hair. One of my friends started calling me froetic just like as a play on words, which eventually became my Instagram handle I was froeticjustice, like poetic justice but froetic justice. So for like years and years, that was my like online identity. And so when I decided to create an online platform and a website and an Instagram account to talk about sex and launch a sex coaching business, I'm not very creative with words all the time and my sister was like just use froetic, like it's a nod to you, it's a nod to your hair and your heritage and @afrosexology was already taken. Shout out to them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Portia Brown
They're wonderful. And so it was really out of like a lack of creativity and just sort of using something I already had to find a way to represent, you know, my new online platform.
Hannah Witton
But it's a great name, great branding.
Portia Brown
Thank you, thanks. It's very unique, so.
Hannah Witton
So why, why did you make that decision to become like a sex educator, sex coach? What was that journey like for you?
Portia Brown
So it's really been - now that I look back and I'm like, have claimed the title finally, I look back over the course of my life and it's really sort of been this underlying theme since I was a kid. And the person that I blame is my mother, who is brilliant and wonderful but like a lot of people, you know, moms of 90s babies, she didn't have the language to like, tell me what was happening in my body and like, talk to me about my period, there was a lot of fear around having those conversations with young girls. So what she did was she realised I was a book nerd. She knew I loved to read. So she just gave me a couple of age appropriate books so I could learn about my period and all this stuff, but she was kind of like don't talk to me about it.
Hannah Witton
I definitely had that as well or just like, here's a book.
Portia Brown
Yes. Yeah. I think a lot of younger people did, which - which ended up working out because it created this association for me between, oh, like, the sex talk doesn't happen for real, like that's in movies and TV. Like, what's really gonna happen is you got to figure this out for yourself, girl. So I remember being like 12, 13 and returning - what was that, what was the book called, like My Body, My Choices?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that sounds familiar.
Portia Brown
The American Girl book that was all about like periods and, and puberty, etc, etc. And I remember thinking there's got to be more books like this and I just devoured everything in the library even things that were probably like, not really age appropriate and some like human sexuality textbooks that they had. I remember just like realising that okay, the librarians are not gonna let me check this out. I'm fucking 13. So I'll just sit here and slowly flick through and read.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, you're like the Matilda of sex.
Portia Brown
Oh my god, yes! I love that.
Hannah Witton
I love the idea of a tween like in the library just being like, what books about sex and my body can I find? I must learn. I love that.
Portia Brown
Yes, it was all like, it was like textbooks and things like that. But also like a lot of the like cheesy romance novel-y kind of things too that I was read.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, yep. I definitely checked out Nicholas Sparks books from the library when I was a teenager.
Portia Brown
Oh, absolutely. So those were the things, those things were the foundation of like my understanding of sex and sexuality. So I had some like fantasy stuff from romance novels. But then I also had some, like real information from books and textbooks about biology about bodies, etc, etc. So fast forward, I grow up and I go to college. And I realise that my friends are kind of like silently looking to me whenever there's a question about sex, because I have been doing this research. And then I found like, you, I found Shan Boody and other people online, and I just like gravitated to these people, and kept learning and kept exploring. And yeah, so then I got to college and I realised like, Oh, I have a little bit more information than other women my age. And then that led to me volunteering around sex and sexuality, talking about consent on campus, passing out condoms and doing you know, college volunteery stuff. But I was in school for journalism so this was like, not on, on the plan to do.
Hannah Witton
This was not the plan.
Portia Brown
No, it wasn't. I did not realise that like, I had the power to do this. And I was like, I'm gonna be a news reporter, which I did. After college, I did do that. But then that ended up not working out and not really being the lifestyle for me. So I quit that. And one day, my partner - this is like, I don't know, almost three and a half years ago - he's like, you're always reading about sex, you're always watching YouTube videos about people talking about relationships, love, dating, etc, and like when we're at a party, like that's the shit you like to talk about. Like, you know the person at the table who's like, so who can squirt, like?
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, are we the same person?
Portia Brown
Just like - over - just cross cities, you know, just cross - overseas. Yes, I think there's lots of similarites. He's said, you should just like start blogging, start writing about sex -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Portia Brown
- and start sharing the information you have. And then it's all just snowballed into like people, too many people in my DMS asking for advice for me to like, not offer a service of support and not start coaching people. Too many, like organisations being like, hey, do you do workshops around da da da da? And I'm like, no, not yet, but I can, you know, that sort of thing. And just sort of leaning into the opportunity and continuing to educate myself and invest in myself so I can, you know, make sure I'm giving accurate and truthful information and well researched information. So it's all been a big fat accident. And then COVID obviously made it more intense because I was at home all the time. And I wasn't working full time anymore. So I committed even more time to this until now. It's it's been a full time thing for me. So it's all been an accident.
Hannah Witton
I love that. Because also I think that one of the things that I get a lot of questions about is "how do I become a sex educator" and all of this and one thing that I heard you say at the beginning was like that it's taken you a while to claim certain titles and I think that is such a huge part of a lot of people's process like mine included, like it took me so long to be able to like confidently say like, I'm a sex educator. Instead of being like, I make videos about sex on the internet and like some people find them helpful.
Portia Brown
Adding disclaimers so that you like aren't - I don't know, for me it was like a liability thing and being afraid of like someone calling me out because I didn't have certain credentials and blah blah blah, but now I understand that like, and maybe you feel the same even when I was in college, like hosting girl chats at my apartment and we were talking about sex and I was like helping people understand how to orgasm and we're like going to sex toy shops and like, picking things out with friends and helping them to trip - like that was sex educating, you know what I'm saying, and like, I think to some degree, there's a lot of gatekeeping in the community, which is good, because - it's complicated because you don't want anyone just sort of putting on the hat and being like, I'm a sex educator, and they're not necessarily giving accurate information. But then I think there are also some people that with a divine calling sort of is how I feel about it in combination with research and like some due diligence, you can claim the title, but it took me like, sincerely, like, until a year and a half ago, even though I have technically been doing this work since I was in college. So like, six years ago.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it took me like following Cameron Glover on Instagram to really like -
Portia Brown
Yes. Yes! Like, I AM!
Hannah Witton
To really internalise it.
Portia Brown
Yes, Cameron was a huge catalyst for me as well in like, figuring out like, okay, so I'm valid as fuck, you know, I really am. So I align with that totally.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think it's really interesting what you said about liability as well, because I think people who are doing this work, who are considering those things, to me, that actually shows that you're taking it seriously because you know how important and serious and how impactful this topic, but not even treating it just as a topic, because it's people's lived experiences. And how, you know, it's important that you can't, like you said, you can't just be like willy nilly, like throwing information out here, it has to be considered. The liability thing, though, reminds me of for a while, I had a series on my YouTube channel called Drunk Advice. And I created that series in order to kind of like get around my fears around that, because I was like, if I'm drunk and I frame it as this like fun thing, and one of the rules is you're not allowed to take my advice, then I'm covered!
Portia Brown
That's hilarious. It's funny how we find ways to like, do the thing that we're called to do. And still, like, with our fear on our back, like still doing it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, fear, imposter syndrome, like -
Portia Brown
All of that.
Hannah Witton
But then I think also like- the root of it is very much we take this work seriously, we know that it can be really impactful for good or bad. And so that's why sometimes we're often like, oh, can I claim this? Like, oh - but yeah, caution is good. But like you said, like, you're so valid in your sex business.
Portia Brown
You can hold yourself back. Yeah. And I think for me, another thing was I realised that becoming a coach and educator required me to look at myself and look at my own limiting beliefs and like, do a lot of deep inner healing work that I'm still doing. And I like, tell my clients this, I'm like, I'm still doing all of this, like, all of the things I'm telling you to do. Like, I'm just, I'm still doing it too. And that was honestly, like, the most terrifying part is like, wow, if I'm going to help people, you know, lead themselves to healing, to better sex, to better understanding of themselves as sexual beings, like I had to do the same. And I think for a lot of people, that's where the hurdle comes in. It's like, "I just want the letters behind my name, I want the certification, I want the title, but like, I don't want to do this shit I got to do within myself." That's where the imposter syndrome comes back, comes in, and all that stuff. So yeah, it's interesting.
Hannah Witton
For sure.
Hannah Witton
So one of the things that you do with your clients is kind of stuff around mindful sex. And I would love to ask, like, what does that mean? Because I feel like sometimes the word mindful can be thrown in front of a lot of things these days as kind of like a bit of a buzzword, but like, what does that mean for like, the work that you do, and in a sexual context?
Portia Brown
Well, really that - thank you for asking this because I love talking about this - really this concept emerged number one out of my own practice, and like self exploration, and number two, the biggest problem or challenge that people present me with is like, they'll say, I can't focus during sex or like, my brain is all over the place, I will catch myself like thinking about sending an email to my boss, while my partner's going down on me, I just like don't understand why I can't like put my brain and my body in the same place. And I've been off and on with mindfulness and yoga and all that stuff and experimenting with it for years. And until I sort of melded the practice with my sex life, and mainly my self pleasure practices, and like my masturbation practices, did - I didn't see like the connection like, oh, this thing helps me be more present. This thing helps me be more focused.
So with my clients, what it looks like is me asking them to develop a mindfulness practice outside of sex first, right? Because our brains don't under - won't understand if they don't have any practice. So doing things like pick one meal, one meal every week that you're going to eat without anyone else around, no TV, no phone, it's just you and the food, soaking in all the senses, like getting your eyes involved, observing the colours of the food, hopefully you're eating something colourful, like vegetables etc, observing the smell, really taking it all in and like focusing in on the sensation of actually eating and what it feels like to have food in your mouth, and like, actually really sitting with your food, because I don't know about you, but half the time I'm like eating whatever I'm eating while I'm watching Netflix, or I'm like scrolling through my phone.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah.
Portia Brown
And I don't taste it, I don't even remember it, I don't remember the sensation. And those patterns, those patterns of doing things translate into our sex life. So encouraging people to make those observations and develop those practices outside of sex first, so that your brain sort of has like, practice for like the game, which is sex and intimacy, and asking people to like, observe - once you get into like trying to apply mindfulness to your actual sex life, actually observing like when you're performing, when you are not showing up authentically, right? So this concept of like, doing sex in the order, or according to the script, is what I always say, you know, like, usually it's going to be you and, if you're a heterosexual person, you and your partner who has a penis or a vulva, and you're gonna make out for a little bit, and then they're gonna do some oral sex and maybe some like heavy petting, then there's gonna be penetration. And then it's done when the person with the penis has an orgasm, and like, that's the script that we all follow. But it doesn't actually really work like that. You know what I'm saying? And it doesn't have to be that way.
So asking people to interrogate like, do you know, when you're following this script? Are you aware of it? Like, does it actually work for you? And what changes can you make? So you're forced to be in your present, because if we're following this script that like Hollywood and porn really has given us, we are not present, it's easy to just go through the motion, it's almost exactly -
Hannah Witton
You're on like, autopilot.
Portia Brown
Exactly, that's exactly the word that I use, because I compare it to like, if you've ever gone on a drive that's a heavy routine for you like the commute from your job to your home, a lot of times you can do that and you don't even like remember the drive, you just show up at your apartment.
Hannah Witton
You're like, how did I get here?
Portia Brown
Teleportation, but you know that you drove and sex can become very, very similar. And I think that until we name that a lot of people don't realise it's something that they're doing. You know, they're like, oh, I guess I didn't really peep that, I didn't really observe that I was following the script and sort of on autopilot the whole time. So just ask, the first step is asking people to acknowledge that and once it's been acknowledged, it can't be undone. So you have to do something different. And you have to be more, more mindful and more present.
Hannah Witton
Mm hmm. Yeah. I love that. I love that, like, so much of this work is just getting people to kind of question everything. And there are so many messages, like even if you like receive no sex education, you're still getting messages about sex, the sexual script, gender roles, like all of this stuff, everywhere, all of the time. And so then when it comes to our own sexual experiences, we're bringing all of that there, and we're just taking it all for granted. Like, oh, this is my role, this is their role, this is what sex is, this is what sex isn't, this is what we should be doing - without ever going, hang on, what do I actually want?
Portia Brown
Exactly. And how can I - how can I like, what I always say is how can I cocreate this experience with this person and not like us hopping in bed and like - because that's how you run into, in my opinion, how couples especially if you're in a longer term relationship, how you run into a wall. You know, I was talking to someone yesterday about how in the beginning of a relationship you spend all this time trying to find your like lock and key moments, trying to find the right position, the right rhythm and everything so that both people are really enjoying it. Particularly for heterosexual people, people with vulvas, it can take a long time to figure out like, okay, how do I orgasm with this person, right? If you're able to orgasm with anyone in the room at all. And once you do that, that kind of becomes your go to so that's how you end up in like a dry spell. It's like yes, I'm achieving orgasm, but like this is boring now. You find the best chocolate chip cookie recipe and you make that thing every Saturday and you eat it every Saturday? Eventually that cookies gonna taste like cardboard. You know what I'm saying? We have to question, we have to mix it up. Even when sex is good even you think you figured it out, you have to continue to be playful and explore.
Hannah Witton
And the thing is, is that cookie is not going to taste like cardboard forever, you just have to eat a different cookie or eat something that is not a cookie. And then you can come back to that old favourite cookie and you're like, this is amazing!
Portia Brown
That's exactly it. It's all about the rotation and being like curious and being explorative and all that stuff so that you don't get, you know, too much of the same old, same old and you get kind of locked, gridlocked with your partner or with yourself even. Another thing that I've talked to a lot of people about is like, how - okay, how do I apply mindfulness to my solo practices? I hate the word masturbation, so I'll find any way to not say it. So I'll say like solo practices or solo sex whenever -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I like the solo sex term. I like that.
Portia Brown
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, for a lot of us, it particularly again, people with vulvas, maybe you have your way of getting yourself off. And I don't know about you or anyone listening but for me for years, it became on my back, with my right hand and it took about four or five minutes. And then I was like, it has to be more than this. Like, yes, I'm having orgasms and like, that's cute or whatever. But there has to be more, like I don't feel connected and I don't feel like I'm actually benefiting from this beyond just like having a cute little like 20 second orgasm.
Hannah Witton
I love that. This is just a cute, it's a cute little orgasm.
Portia Brown
Again, it's a cute, it's the same cute little chocolate chip cookie or whatever again and again, and like trying to find ways to be more innovative and like, curious about my own body and my own pleasure so that I don't get stuck in a rut.
Hannah Witton
Mm hmm. One of the things that I've also found in terms of like, getting out of a solo sex kind of rut is not just about like, toys that you use, or which hand or positions that you're in, but also like stimulus. So whether it's trying out different fantasies, or like reading different erotica, or, like trying audio porn and seeing if like, that does something different to the experience? Like, I love experimenting with all those kinds of things.
Portia Brown
Yes, I agree. I think that so often we - like we'll watch porn, for example. It's really popular. Like I love porn. I have no - I should say no qualms with porn, because there are -
Hannah Witton
No qualms with people enjoying porn.
Portia Brown
No qualms with people enjoying porn, right, because I'm a person who enjoys porn. But that stimulus like even the lighting, the angles, the sounds like it's even if it's a new video, or different performers like it becomes very routine and the same, so doing things like, like reading erotica, and seeing what that does for you. Or like you said, audio porn. That's something that I've come upon in the last year that has like, changed the game for me, because it's something I can listen to quite easily and I don't have to look at it. I could use my own imagination.
Hannah Witton
Yep! This is one of my favourite things about audio points, like you can do eyes closed, and it's hands free.
Portia Brown
Yes, exactly. I don't mess with - with visual porn, I'm like trying to rewind and I'm trying to touch laptop and I've got lube on my hand and it's on my keyboard, it's just -
Hannah Witton
One of my frustrating things when it comes to porn is if the length of the scene doesn't line up with the length of my orgasm, or like, the timing of my orgasm. And then either you've come too soon, and you've just got like, five minutes left of porn to watch. And you're like, do I just keep watching this and like, go for another one. Or the video is over and you're like, damn it. I'm not done.
Portia Brown
The timing thing, the timing thing is huge. Or they'll pop to something that like I don't like to see like suddenly the performers are doing something that I don't like to see it's, yeah, it's overall like just choosing a different source of stimulus. Or allowing yourself to use your imagination, whether again, whether you're alone or with a partner, like I like to incorporate all these things into my partnered situations as well. It just provides more variety and we have so so much access to so many different things that are free like there's free erotic literature, there's free audio porn, there's free whatever you want, you can access, right? Of course, do your due diligence and make sure that it's ethically sourced and people are being paid. But to not acknowledge that and not incorporate it. people are doing themselves such a disservice. And you don't have to like everything but like, give it a go.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Like if you're feeling a bit stuck, like try it. But if also like, I'm like, if it does nothing for you. That's also fine.
Portia Brown
Yes. And it could do something for you in the future in a different format or a different setting or whatever. Just add more context.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so I want to like shift gears a little. Because one thing that I've seen you talk about before is - like this industry that we're in, which is the sexual wellness industry, which honestly, I'm like, when did that term come into being? Because I feel like it's last couple years? I honestly don't know. But yeah, what is going on there? And why should we be kind of like, critical of it, shall we say?
Portia Brown
Ooh, I love this. I love this. I love this. So I don't really know what's going on with sexual wellness. I don't know if I'm a part of it. I don't know if I want to be. I'm still sort of inspecting from afar, like, what exactly is happening? I think that too - I believe everything is both and there's no good and bad, everything is just kind of a big pot of everything else. I hope that made sense. But to me, it feels like on one hand, people are benefiting, people are getting sex education, using lube, sex toys, talking to your friends about sex and sexuality is becoming more common and normalised. But on the other hand, we have, you know, the evil hands of capitalism saying all of your - the cures to your sexual problems are to pay for this expensive webinar and all these lubes and toys, when in reality, like that may not ring true for everyone. Like, a sex toy is not going to solve everyone's sex related issues. So there's good and bad happening kind of at the same time.
And then obviously, you have to bring race, gender, beauty standards into the mix, because a lot of it is happening online and on social media, which is a very visual place. So there are certain people who may have expertise, excuse me, who may have expertise, who may have great products, great services, as potential solutions for people, but because they don't look the part or they don't speak a certain way, or what have you, they're not able to access the sexual wellness space. And we've seen this happen in other, you know, in other wellness, I don't know, like wellness niches, I guess is the word that I will use, where it doesn't feel accessible to everyone, whether you are a service provider, or product producer or you're a consumer on the other end, it's just it's a confusing time. It's a really confusing time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, one of the things that I just I find, like, really interesting about it is because I've kind of like been in this space for like 10 years, like actually kind of like seeing it emerge and seeing it change. And obviously, like, when you have like brands and companies going, oh, this is popular, there's an audience for this, there are consumers here for it - it makes me really sceptical. But on the other hand, I'm just like, that's also like, often how I make a living.
Portia Brown
Yes!
Hannah Witton
So I have this like really complicated relationship with it, where I'm like, if I'm going to be providing free content, free sex education for people, then I need the sexual wellness industry to be doing well. But I'm going to be side-eying it.
Portia Brown
Yeah, I think we - and this is where like, I believe there's good and bad in everything. And we get to be a part of something and still also critique it, I think. I think we can live in it and work within it, and then have a critique of what is happening. Because like yourself, I too need the sexual wellness industry to be doing well. I work with sex toy companies, I work with lube producing companies, I work with people like yourself, right? So if these things don't exist, then potentially I'm going to have a harder time doing the work that I do and offering people the services that I do. But I think I also get to give it a critical eye and side-eye it and say this, these are the things that I would like to change and see be better and do the best I can to make it happen.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think there's always going to be like bad actors who just actually just swoop it and aren't there to actually kind of be part of the conversation and are just there to like, make some quick cash.
Portia Brown
Yeah, and that goes for every industry.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Portia Brown
Like, that's pretty much everything. And I think we like as people who are like, I'm gonna be here for the long haul and I'm like doing this, this is my life's work, we get to let the people in our circles know and our audiences know like, this is how you can spot that person. And you know, these are some of the telltale signs of someone who's like, really not about this life, you know, who's really like not not here for the long haul and maybe not the best person for you to invest your time, money and energy in.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for sure. So I really want to talk with you about pleasure. Because one of the things that you said was about creating, like, a pleasure practice. How - what is a pleasure practice? How does one go about figuring out what their pleasure practice is? Is it like morning pages?
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, did you read The Artist's Way?
Hannah Witton
No but I've heard so many people talk about it.
Portia Brown
Oh my gosh, okay, so just a quick plug, I read The Artist's Way at the end of last year, and and it changed my life. So anyways, that's where morning pages comes from in my, in my work. So for me, a pleasure practice is finding a way once - my call to people is like once a week, find 30 minutes where you can indulge in something pleasurable for you, that involves no one else. And it's just an opportunity for you to connect with pleasure. Pleasure is so important to me. Because it's our way of connecting. This is something that Adrian Marie Brown says, it's a way of connecting to who we are without all the bullshit, without capitalism, without all our traumas, without all of our social conditioning. It really is a way for us to connect with - it sounds weird, but kind of our like our inner child and like our truest, truest, truest truest self.
Hannah Witton
I don't think there's anything weird about that at all. Because when I talk about pleasure I always frame it in like, this is about play. Like, remember, like, ow fun being a kid was? And you would just play?
Portia Brown
Yes, yeah. And sometimes people like make weird faces when I'm talking about sex and then I'm asking them to talk about like, who they were as a child at the same time. They're like ew, I don't want to think about that, like, that's weird, I don't want to think about sex in that context. But it really, really, really is. And that's why I call it a pleasure practice. Like it's not a masturbation practice. It doesn't have to do - it doesn't necessarily have to do with sex at all. It can just be something that is pleasurable for you. One of my favourite things is like when a new podcast episode that I really like comes out, and I have to wash my hair because that shit takes like two hours, so I get to listen to the podcast and like not really get caught up in like being with my hair. That's a pleasure practice for me. Another pleasure practice might look like, okay, I live with my boyfriend, so let's say he is going off and he's doing something by yourself. Great, have the whole apartment to myself, I get to blast Ariana Grande, I'm gonna dress cute like I'm going on a date, but I'm not, I'm dating myself, and then make myself a bomb meal, I'm going to eat by myself, I'm going to get wine drunk, and then I'm going to go like fuck myself like that is a pleasure practice.
You know that it could really truly be anything. If you have a favourite park and you know, right now the flowers are in bloom, I'm going to go get this new book I bought, I'm going to go get my favourite blanket and sit under the trees and read, like that is a pleasure practice. So it really is about finding time to connect with self and be like, what is my, what is my deepest yes? What is the yummiest thing I can do for myself, right now? It might be like four hours of using your sex toys and like getting down and having 15 orgasms, or it might be a long bubble bath. It might be some combination of those things. But I find that a lot of people, and a lot of women in particular, don't have that. They don't create space for that in their lives in a regular routine way. And this is more than self care, right? This isn't face masks and bubble baths for the sake of doing it. Because we could talk at length about what we've done to self care and how just how like messed up it is and how far from the original intention it's become. But this is a level up because you're doing it with the intention of connect - again, connecting with who you are, without all of your social conditioning, with all of your trauma and restrictions and all that stuff. And for self discovery. And having different iterations of what that might look like is really, really, really important. It can be a daily thing that you do, it can be something you do once a week, just finding a cadence and rhythm for the routine that works for you and your lifestyle and your needs, right?
If you're a person who has a lot of stress, you got like 17 kids, you work a full time job and like your mom lives with you, I don't know, like, some crazy stuff, maybe your pleasure practice needs to be a little bit more intense and involved and maybe less frequent. Maybe someone like me who kind of creates her own schedule, I'm talking about sex all day anyway so my pleasure practices are a little more frequent because I have the time and space to do that. So it's about fitting it to your lifestyle and doing it in a way that's pressure free. Like it's not a task or a chore. Because a lot of clients that I work with when I ask them like, "Do you self pleasure?" they're like, "Well, I try to remember to but then it feels like just another thing on my to do list." Feels like another thing that I have to do to take care of myself, like it's not -
Hannah Witton
Or to like be a functional human and society that like lives a balanced life.
Portia Brown
Yes. Yeah. And that's, that's hard like I felt that way about sex, in my relationship, about self pleasure, about doing different things. Like, it's almost like going to the dentist or like, it's like, oh, I gotta go do this.
Hannah Witton
Ugh, I gotta go do my self care.
Portia Brown
Yes, yeah, it's just like another choice. And that's a hard thing to really get over. But again, it's - it to me is about the intention and like, why you're doing it and having a reason beyond like, ahh, this makes me an adult, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But the way that I'm kind of thinking of it is that you're kind of like carving out time where there are no expectations on you. So you can just do what you want. And the way that maybe like, I would frame it for myself, if I was going to try and like intentionally create a pleasure practice, is I would actually, like carve out time in my diary, which for some people would be like, oh, no, can't do that. But I would carve out my diary to just to kind of like, hold myself accountable to not book anything else in there. Not as a like, okay, as soon as seven o'clock hits its pleasure time, but more of to make sure that there's nothing else there.
Portia Brown
Yes!
Hannah Witton
And then, in the moment, asking myself, what do I really want to do right now? Rather than like having like, a plan, like, past Hannah going, you're gonna have a pleasure practice and here's the list of activities. Because then that's not - yeah, like, no, but if I, if I'm just like, oh, I've got a free couple of hours now. What do I want to do that will nourish my soul?
Portia Brown
Yeah. Yes, nourishment is such a key key word because it is about like replenishing. And this- this is like, some people might be listening and they're like, What is this, this is like, not that revolutionary, like, I know I'm supposed to make time for myself, and like, I get it. But the thing that always comes up for me when I talk about this is the phrase like, fill your own cup before you try to pour into someone else's. And really, for me, that phrase and that concept has evolved to like, filling my own cup to a point where people drink from my overflow. Like, I'm not pouring into anyone, I'm just overflowing with nourishment for myself, and it's spilling into my relationships with my mom, my sister, my boyfriend, my co workers, etc. And that's what this is actually about, it's like putting that concept into motion. And all these clichés we hear about taking care of ourselves, like making it an actual part of our life so we can, can reap the benefits. Because a lot of us are like, oh, I know these things and like, on some level, I do that. But if you look at your calendar, when was the last time you got to spend time with yourself, like really intentionally? When was the last time you like, were like, I'm going to be in bed and like, if I masturbate, if I self pleasure, so so be it but if I don't like maybe I'll read a book, maybe I'll do dah dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, whatever. A lot of us don't actually make intentional time to do that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. And I think, like, there's so many things that kind of block us from finding that time for ourselves, whether it be like actual constraints that we have, because of our life circumstances, but then also like guilt for, for taking that time. And it makes me think of the phrase guilty pleasure.
Portia Brown
I hate that word.
Hannah Witton
Right?
Portia Brown
I hate that phrase, because pleasure should never feel guilty. It really should never feel guilty. Like, unless you're harming someone else in the process, you really shouldn't feel guilty about taking time for yourself. And that's another hurdle or another obstacle that comes up for a lot of people is feeling guilty about taking time for themselves because we live in a world that rewards you not for how much pleasure you access and how much time you spend on yourself and making yourself better, but it rewards you for how much pain and suffering you can endure and how much you can martyr yourself, particularly if you're a woman, right? So when you finally turn away from that, and try to do something different, you're thinking but but but I'm supposed to suffer, I'm supposed to, you know, be giving myself to other people and that's what makes me a good person. But that bullshit, that is how you - that is how like, you go to an early grave, in my opinion, like pouring yourself into other people instead of pouring into yourself.
And the other thing is worthiness. There's this idea in our like, collective consciousness that pleasure is something that has to be earned, like recreation has to be earned. A break has to be earned. I don't know how long - it's been a while since you've worked in like a corporate setting, if ever, I'm sure but I recently departed from corporate America. And I was such a good employee. I was such a good employee. I used to hold my pee. I would sit through two hour meetings and be starving and actively suppress that feeling and like disconnect and shut down from my body and I was rewarded for it over and over and over again. I was rewarded for how long I could stay on the phone and talk talk, talk, talk talk while I was dying of thirst. How well can you disconnect from your body? Like that's the question that most social settings and most like work settings and capitalism asks us. But pleasure asks, how connected can you be? How much can you settle into your body? And how much can you pay attention to every little single thing that you want, need, desire right now?
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love that.
Portia Brown
Yes, yes. Doesn't that sounds great?
Hannah Witton
It does sound great. I'm now imagining, like corporate meetings, where they're like, if you need to lie down, like lie down, if you need to go to the toilet, do that, and just having meetings so people are just like on the floor?
Portia Brown
And how much more productive might we actually be and like fuck productivity. And that's something that comes up in sex too is like wanting to have an orgasm, because we're goal oriented and we have to produce things and oh my gosh, all this, all this shit. So guilt definitely is something that keeps us from having a pleasure practice and also not feeling worthy. Because we feel like we have to earn it. It's like, oh, I didn't do everything on my to do list. I don't get to do my pleasure practice this week. Oh, I still have a - like, fuck that what's gonna happen if there are dishes in your sunk, like, for two hours while you go and have sex with yourself? Not the world's not gonna burn, you know?
Hannah Witton
The world's not gonna burn but your soul will, in a good way.
Portia Brown
In the best way. The best way.
Hannah Witton
In the best way.
Hannah Witton
I have some questions that people wanted to ask you from Instagram. Somebody asked, how can we all enjoy sex for ourselves? Not the other person? I mean, I have a - I have a question about this question. But if you have any thoughts, go.
Portia Brown
What's the question about the question?
Hannah Witton
Well, I think like, we - if - if this is a woman who's asking this question, where we're kind of like, constantly sold the message that - especially if we're heterosexual - that it's the man's pleasure that's important. So rightly so we want to kind of like, take that back and go, how can I do this for myself - but I actually don't like the addition of a not for the other person, because I'm like, no, there still is another person.
Portia Brown
Yes, and I think to say to - what, regardless of this person's gender and who they're dating, like their gender, I think that a lot of people feel like, we're told we're supposed to be good lovers. And like, that's what makes, you know, that's what makes sex good, if you can give, give, give and be a good lover. And I think one thing that I've realised is I'm a good lover when I'm vocal, and I let my partner know what I need, so that he can feel affirmed and have direction and not be confused, number one. And that also creates space for him to do the very same so that I have direction, I'm not confused. And like sex is more fun when you are confident, like when you know I'm doing the thing my partner wants right now. So I think that one way you can begin to enjoy sex for yourself is to sort of have that mind shift, that actually I can have both of these things at the same time, to your point, Hannah, like there is another person in this space, I can have both like my needs met and also in the process of doing that I'm affirming my partner and get creating space for them to do the same and also move through this without wondering like, damn, does she even want me to be going down on her right now.
Hannah Witton
Because there's the pleasure and giving as well as receiving. And I think it's a myth that every sexual encounter has to be like completely equal in terms of the pleasure distributed.
Portia Brown
It's part of the culture!
Hannah Witton
Whereas you might have, yeah, you might have like some sexual encounters where you're doing all of the heavy lifting. And then you might have other sexual encounters, where you're just lying back and having the time of your life. And it doesn't have to be like every single sexual encounter has to be like 50/50. Yeah.
Portia Brown
We have to, like destroy all of these concepts. Realising that like that - it - we're very like binary in our thinking. It's like, oh, right now I'm having sex for - and this is not to like, I'm not like piling it on on this person. But like -
Hannah Witton
No, not at all.
Portia Brown
Well, how about sex in general. So I hope this person is feeling targeted. And thank you for creating the opportunity to talk about this. But it's like, okay, right now I am having sex. And my enjoyment is coming from the other person enjoying it, but I want to get something out of it, too. So now it has to be the complete opposite. It's like no, like, get rid of this binary thinking, it doesn't have to be one way or the other way, it can be something entirely new and outside of this binary way of thinking. So yeah, try to try to have that mind shift.
Hannah Witton
I think a lot of people see sex as a zero sum game. Whereas if one person is experiencing pleasure, then that means I am not. Where like you said, it's it's both and. It's always both and.
Portia Brown
Yes. I love that question, though. Yeah, and to your point about like women feeling like we are not getting - we're the ones not getting anything out of sex, which statistically speaking, like the orgasm gap exists, so like that's not, it's not unfounded, but we also have to, again, take out of the equation - not take out of the equation, but amplify and expand our definition of what good sex looks like and what it means to enjoy ourselves because it become about, like, coming. It's become about orgasms. And while orgasms are great, I think that when we expand what we think pleasure is, and what pleasure is about, and what sex is about, partnered sex is about, we'll find that we can have really fulfilling and satisfying sex that doesn't necessarily require an orgasm. And that's something that I think that we, we need to get away from, it's like, the orgasm may not even be the best part. And I think that's really cool. You know, like, having an orgasm, but be like, you know, you were looking into my eyes while you were fucking me and that was actually the best part for me. I really love this, this weird and dirty thing you said, that was like, way better than the orgasm, you know, and just making room for all of that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think maybe one of the things that this person is also getting at is like, I think, what if you're somebody who for so long has only ever really put the other person's pleasure as the priority and completely deprioritised their own pleasure? How can you then in your sex life start to reprioritize your own pleasure?
Portia Brown
What I always suggest for people who are in this kind of position is to begin the work outside of your partnered situations and begin to build a relationship and rapport with yourself and your own like sexual interactions with yourself. The most important sexual relationship any of us will ever have is with us, right? Our own self discovery -
Hannah Witton
With us! With you and me!
Portia Brown
Yes, with Hannah and Portia, no, no, please, I don't have that kind of time. I would - there's a lot of you out there I'm sure I'd have a great time with but yeah, that's a lot of work. But with yourself, with yourself, with yourself, and a lot of discoveries about ourselves and experimentation can really only happen in a way that's relaxed when nobody else is there. And a lot of people feel a lot of shame and insecurity because they're like, oh, I perform entirely differently when I'm with my partner, as opposed to when I'm with myself. And I actually think that's okay, like if you feel, if you feel more relaxed when you're with yourself, you get to try things that you want to try with your partner, but you get to do it with yourself first. Like if you want to use a butt plug with your partner, maybe you try using it with yourself first, see how it feels, so you don't have to feel the need to perform like you like it if you don't, or pretend like you like it more than you actually do, you know what I'm saying? Like, so if you've always been prioritising someone else, begin - begin by taking baby steps, prioritise your own pleasure outside of your partnered situation, if that's accessible to you, right? Begin finding ways to create pleasure practices, begin to expand your self pleasure practice and your solo sex practice outside of the bedroom, because that affirms that it's possible for you to have more experience, more pleasure, and a new type of interaction with yourself. And I think you'll find that it translates to your partnered sex because you can't go - once you go. I almost brought up a really old phrase, I'm not gonna say it, but I think most of you can fill in the blank. But once you get to a place where you are experiencing a certain level of pleasure and confidence with yourself, it becomes really hard to settle for lacklustre sex with your partner, and you have to begin to level up. I hope that makes sense. I hope that answers
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think if you do have a partner, and this is something that you're kind of like going on your own, like solo sexual journey as well, like, there are ways to still kind of like have that privacy, but then also kind of like, check in with your partner and like, take them along for that journey, like this is what I've been learning or like this is something that I'm curious about. Because also you don't want to be in a situation where suddenly like six months later you go, okay, here's my list of things that I've discovered that I have like - that I now like, and they're like wait, what, I didn't know.
Portia Brown
This has to be kind of incremental. It can't be or it can't be like you pile it on your partner. It's got to be in the middle.
Hannah Witton
Kind of like connected to this actually about the kind of communicating with your partner about stuff. Somebody asked, what if your partner has an issue with your sex toys? How do I explain it to him?
Portia Brown
A lot of people - I'm assuming this is a heterosexual cisgender couple - but a lot of men have issues with sex toys because they view them as a replacement rather than something they can collaborate with. Something that you can use as a tool. Like if you're a plumber, you're not going to look at a wrench and be like this is going to take my job away. Like this actually helps you do your job, kid, like this is something that you need to get the job done and something that's going to help your partner access a lot more pleasure. So putting it to them like that and having them - first of all, I don't want to dismiss anyone's insecurities or like lack of information or understanding around this. But we also have to position it in a way that is non threatening and help people understand.
You might think this because of pop culture, because of sitcoms, because it's always been presented to you as a threat. When in reality, remember that the framing of like - this brings up so many things, the idea that like your partner is supposed to make you come, make you orgasm, like that is so flawed to me. It's like not necessarily how we should be thinking about it. And I think that a lot of people, when they see a sex toy, and they see oh, this is now the thing that makes my partner orgasm instead of me. It's like, no, you're still there. You're still part of it. We're collaborating. And we're cocreating this experience together and using this as an apparatus for me to experience pleasure. Instead of feeling like, oh, I'm going to be replaced by this thing. Like, no, my sex toy cannot cuddle with me. It cannot watch my favourite reality TV shows with me. It can't make me dinner. It's not going to tell me that it loves me. So you cannot be replaced by it. It simply is a tool for you to help me experience more, more pleasure more easily. And spend less time trying to finagle and finesse my - your way to helping me orgasm.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for sure. I think it's such a shame how like you said, in pop culture, it really is like, framed as a threat. And I'm just thinking of just like, scenes that it's always like in comedies and stuff. Aw man, I do love me some good comedies. But when I think about things that they like joked about and normalised. I'm just like, oh, actually, what's going on here?
Portia Brown
Yes, exactly. And also the other way that growing up, I saw sex toys was like, if you needed it, you were sad. Like you couldn't, you couldn't get a partner kind of thing. It's like, oh, if you have to use sex toys, then you're really desperate kind of a thing. So we have a lot of like - I think that it's changing now. I actually know that it's shifted dramatically in the last, like, maybe 10 years or so. But we have a lot of like negativity and stigma towards women owning sex toys and like wanting to use them with their partners instead of viewing it like lube or condoms, or like handcuffs or anything else. Right? Like if I want to use a vibrator, it's simply a way for me to access pleasure more easily rather and more versatile, versatility with more versatility.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, Portia. Thank you so much. This has been such a great chat. I'm like now gonna start a pleasure practice.
Portia Brown
Please. And please let me know what it becomes. I will - I have like a really lengthy like one hour - I call it my ceremony.
Hannah Witton
I love it. Yes. I think for me it might be a different thing every week.
Portia Brown
Yeah. And it can be! Yeah, please let me know what you come up with.
Hannah Witton
I will I will. And listeners, if you come up with your own pleasure practice also let us know on social media. That'd be great. Portia, where can people find you online?
Portia Brown
Of course. Yeah. So you - the primary place I hang out is Instagram. You can find me @froeticsexology. That's F R O E T I C sexology. My website is for froetcsexology.com, you can learn about all the services that I offer. I do only work with women and femmes so sorry if you're a cis man. But I'm happy to direct you to another coach if you are looking for a sex coach. You can read my blog there. I'm hanging out all over the internet. So those are the two main places you can find me.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure.
Portia Brown
Oh, I love that. Thank you for having me.
Portia Brown
And thank you all for listening. Bye.
Portia Brown
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast