Being Single, Dating and Setting Boundaries with Michelle Elman | Transcript
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Michelle Elman
We talk about self love all the time. But we don't recognise that in order to actually have time for self love and self care, you need to make time for yourself, and in order to do that, you do have to put yourself before other people, and so people can really get on board with a wafty idea of self love, but I'm like boundaries are the practical side of self love. How do you have time for self love and self care when you're taking care of everyone else first.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. Today's guest is the brilliant Michelle Elman, who is a life coach, body positive activist, and author. She recently announced that her second book, The joy of Being Selfish, How to Set Boundaries and Why We Need Them, will be coming out in February next year. And I just had to talk with her all about it. In recent years, Michelle has become more open online, with talking about her experiences dating, and she always has such great wisdom to offer. In this episode, we talk about what Michelle calls empowered dating, how it changed the way she felt about dating and felt about herself, and helped her get over the fear of ending up alone. We chat about all sorts from the hierarchical notion that meeting a partner IRL is better than meeting them through apps, the scam that is virginity, our thoughts on the TV show Normal People. And we go on a bit of a tangent about neuro linguistic programming and pickup artists. And of course, we tackle boundaries, how you can set boundaries casually, it doesn't have to be this big thing. Figuring out your boundaries, disagreements in relationships about boundaries, and Michelle's experience with someone she was seeing who wouldn't commit to a time to hang out, but she set a boundary and he was round hers at 3pm. Efficient, I love it. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. And without further ado, here's my chat with Michelle Elman. Hello, Michelle, welcome. I am so excited to chat with you today about dating and boundaries. All of that good stuff.
Michelle Elman
I was so excited to be on your podcast. It's such an honour.
Hannah Witton
This is gonna be great. I thought we could start with just a bit of background like tell us a bit about you and your dating journey.
Michelle Elman
Okay, so I am single, I've been single for, oh God, I don't even know six years. I actually feel like it's quite similar to your dating journey. I know that sounds kind of creepy, but I do. So I didn't know. I'm just a few years behind you. So I'm going through the I was a late bloomer. I started dating when I was 18. Well, I didn't even start dating. I had my first kiss at 18. I lost my virginity, for lack of a better word, at 16 at, no 18. And then I did the whole dating, but not really dating, because at the time actually before dating apps, I don't think I would have ever even called it dates or dating. It was just like meeting guys in clubs and kissing and then swapping numbers. And I did that whole thing got my first boyfriend at 21. And yeah, and then, like I had a few things, but then I've been single for six years. And for the first three years of that it was a very conscious choice. I recognised that I was dating a lot of toxic people. And I knew that there were like a number of things I needed to work on within myself, and I had just been diagnosed with PTSD. So I kind of needed all my own time and energy, and I just graduated, so I was like, I just need to sort my life out and figure out what I want before I start like introducing a new person into my life. So I consciously decided to be single for about three years. And then after three years, I started getting interested in dating and was like dating a little bit, but not really taking it seriously. And to be honest, it only really changed when two of my friends who had been in long term relationships, one was in like a seven year relationship and one was in a five year relationship. They both broke up in pretty much the same month.
Hannah Witton
It always happens in waves.
Michelle Elman
Yeah, exactly. And like I don't know about you, but I went through a long spell, especially post uni, where I was the only single friend of my friendship group at 21. And I was like How like, How were you still young? How am I the only single person but those relationships eventually come to an end, or the majority of them obviously, some people last through school and uni all of that.
Hannah Witton
There's always one. I swear everyone knows one couple of friends school who are still together.
Michelle Elman
Yeah. And it's usually just one though. But so then they, they basically, were newly single, and living their ultimate single life
Hannah Witton
Love it
Michelle Elman
Immediately. So like, it was a while. So for one of them, it was immediately one of them. It was like two months of crying. And we both happen to be on the same photoshoot. She turned up with the biggest smile on her face. And I was like, I spoke to you yesterday, you were crying, what's changed. So she was like, I'm gonna start a black book. And I was like, I was like, I spoke to you 24 hours ago. And basically the both started living there, like ultimate life, and she was like, sliding into people's DMs, which I thought wasn't a real thing, unless you're a celebrity. Whose are you sliding into and she was like, I'm sliding into like, primary school, like guys from primary school who I used to have a crush on. And I was like, that is not a thing at all. And so basically, we left the photoshoot. I don't know why, but I remember it was a Tuesday. And that weekend was Easter weekend, but I forgot it was Easter weekend, being the freelancer that I am. Completely forgot I had two bank holidays. And every night from Tuesday until the Friday was, I'd realised like I wasn't going to sleep. So I kept thinking about, if I could slide into someone's DMs, who would I slide into? I'm not a person who like lingers like when something's over. I'm like, delete your number, delete, delete our messages. Don't think about you ever again.
Hannah Witton
Oh, see I'm such a lingerer.
Michelle Elman
No. So like me thinking about a guy at two o'clock in the morning, who I hadn't spoken to in two years was so weird to me, to the point where like, so I wake up, realise it's a bank holiday, call my friend. I'm like, you're so annoying, I keep staying up to like two in the morning just thinking about this guy from two years ago. And I'm like, this is not me. what are you doing to me. And she was like, guess where I am. And I was like where? She was like, Africa.
Hannah Witton
What?!
Michelle Elman
And like both of these friends had just decided to pick up and go to Africa. And I like hung up the phone and just had this moment of like, I've been single for so long. They are newly single, and they're living their like ultimate single life. Erm, and I'm like, I need to get on it a bit. I need to actually put some welly into this. And so basically, they were like, if you don't dm someone in the next hour, we're gonna do it for you because they have my password on Instagram.
Hannah Witton
What an ultimatum.
Michelle Elman
I know and I was like there's this one guy from two years ago. And so I DM'd him and at like, three o'clock, by nine o'clock he was in my apartment,
Hannah Witton
Oh wow
Michelle Elman
and I had not spoken to him in nine years and that, like that story, that like time in my life I've actually never spoken about on my page because it's not really on brand for me. But that was what kick started this year of like actively dating, dating multiple people. Like what I now call empowered dating, where it was
Hannah Witton
I was going to ask about that, what is empowered dating?
Michelle Elman
For me, it's ultimately just dating and not feeling bad about yourself. Because for me dating meant like questioning my beauty, questioning my worth, questioning if I'm lovable, questioning if I'm ever going to find someone, and I just threw out the idea. It comes with a lot of things in my head. And it's very hard to explain to another person because like empowered dating such a clear image in my head, but it's also a concept I completely made up. Like I date without like focusing on results. I date to enjoy the time I'm actually on the date of the person I'm with and I can just enjoy it. Even if there's no second date, like I can enjoy the time I'm spending with a person in the same way that, like I spend time with strangers all the time and I don't spend the entire time going well if I don't see you again, then why am I having a nice conversation with you? That's just a waste of time. But we do that with dating and it makes no sense. And I started enjoying dating and last year maybe went on like 30, dated maybe 30 people, like it was a lot. Some weeks were like three dates with three different guys. But it just challenged me in so many different ways like and
Hannah Witton
How did you squish all of that in, that's the main challenge that I'm seeing
Michelle Elman
Like before that, I had to go to all my friends and was like I'm doing this thing, I'm going to be shit friend, I might not see for six months, I'm reprioritising my life and I just want to throw like all my time and energy into dating so genuinely, for some of my best friends, I didn't see them for like six months, and I would call them and things like that.
Hannah Witton
I love that clear communication though, of just like, this is what's happening in this new direction, I love you.
Michelle Elman
But also, I was like, you're gonna have some great stories though.
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, like it will be worth it when we do hang out, I will have anecdotes.
Hannah Witton
I think when I was dating, I did so much of that via text. Yeah, there was one person who I remember just being like, I actually really like this person. I don't want to like let them down by text. But because we weren't like meeting up, it was like over the phone. And I remember being so anxious, being like, I like you, but this isn't going anywhere, and I think we should call it a day. But he was just like, that's totally fine. Like been really lovely hanging out with you.
Michelle Elman
Exactly. So it was hard scheduling it in. But it was also like, being able to communicate with these people. And the nicest thing was like, none of it ended badly. I got so used to, especially when you men, like, got so used to the fact that like when you reject someone or ends, it leads in you being insulted. And like for the first time, I was like ending things and having no worries about it. Weirdly, before this phase, I like my biggest issue around dating was I never wanted to go on a date with someone because I didn't know how to tell them. I wasn't interested after a day, which is such a basic communication thing. Like how did I struggle with this? This is not that hard.
Hannah Witton
When you get it, and you're so shocked. I remember because I was going into a meeting with like, it was like my TEDx family. And I sent it on the tube because I was so scared. And like I do tend to do over text because I'm like, worried in. Like, if it's not too many dates, like, I think with that guy had been like three dates, then I think you can do over text.
Hannah Witton
This guy I'd been dating for like two or three months.
Michelle Elman
Yeah, then it needs to be like, at least over the phone. But like, I send that text on the tube knowing I didn't have signal because I was so scared about like what he was gonna say. And
Hannah Witton
Then you're like, ah for this rest of this tube journey, I can't think about it. I can't check my phone because nothing's coming in.
Michelle Elman
And then I thought, well, I'm gonna get off the tube, go to the meeting, and then I'll come back, and I'll see what it is. But he had already replied, by the time I got to the meeting, and it was the nicest. Like, I remember there was like a sentence in it, which was like, you're, because I said something about like, I want to focus on like my career, which wasn't like the truth. But I couldn't really tell someone like, oh I'm finding our conversation boring. I said, like I said, Oh, I should probably focus on my work at the moment. And he was like, your work is really important, so I completely understand you wanting to do that you're doing so many amazing things and changing the world. And just like I was like, Wow, you're literally complimenting me in a really like, big way in our like, ending it conversation. And I think for me, that was the biggest sign that like, the quality of men I was dating had completely shifted, and that the break in dating, and the consciously single period was so needed, because like all the guys I dated last year, I would speak positively about and had a really nice time for the length of time we dated, whether it lasted or not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So how did you find these quality men? And I guess another thing that always comes to mind for me is that people have, or like us as a culture, we have this huge fear of like ending up alone, which can often be why we don't date quality people, we lower our standards a bit. So like, how do you find the quality? And then also, how do we get over this fear of ending up alone.
Michelle Elman
So I think people are really snobby about where you meet. So every date, apart from one, was on a dating app. Like there is not a specific, if you meet at the bus stop doesn't mean they're going to be higher quality. It's like, especially in our generation, I have a lot of friends who are single and going, I wish we could go back to the days where we met in a club like it was so much easier. The one guy, I did have one bad experience where a guy stood me up, but that was, that was the only guy I met off a dating app. And that was a guy I met at a club so I used to say to my friends, see I told you it's not high quality just because you're meeting in person. And this like glorification of meeting in person as being better and meaning they're higher quality, it doesn't mean anything.
Hannah Witton
It's just a bit more romanticisedm I guess, because it doesn't involve technology.
Michelle Elman
You know why? Cuz I think we always want that story to go with our relationship. We always want that like good how we met story and like, it's always like, oh, how are you going to tell your kids that you met? I met on a dating app. Oh, how unromantic and I'm like, Well, does it have to be romantic? And that's coming from a person whose parents met on an aeroplane, my mum was an air hostess, and they have most romantic story like possible. Like I was like, can't compete, might as well not try, dating app it is. But, but I think the quality of men changed when I accepted that I wasn't scared of being alone. I think that the last relationship I was actually in, was actually a huge life lesson for me that when we ended, all I felt was relief, because and then I had slight regret about the amount of time and energy I put into that relationship. Just because I knew it was never going to last from the beginning. And if I was honest with myself, at that time, I got into that relationship because I wanted a boyfriend, not that person, but a boyfriend, it could have been any human, he could have been interchangeable with any other person, and it would have been fine
Hannah Witton
We trick ourselves into thinking that we're compatible with someone, or thinking that someone is good for us. Like, I remember, I dated someone, like maybe one of the most attractive people I've ever met. Like, I actually was floored by his beauty when I first met him. And we dated for a while. But we, it was acknowledged, like really early on in dating that he never wanted children. And I do want children. And so even though it was just like, oh, you're really hot, and really lovely, and this is really fun. That was established really early on. And we did date for a while after that. But there was clearly this understanding of like, this isn't going anywhere. We're just going to like enjoy time with each other.
Michelle Elman
But you know what I think that is, I think it's the fact that anytime I talk about these things, and I talk about like you, the person you're dating has to match your values a lot. And I see that in terms of life coaching, like your values, what what do you value in your love life? Is it appreciation? Is it sex? Is it love? Is it excitement? Is it security or safety? If your values aren't being met, then that's not a person you should be with. And then they'll go, oh, but I love them. And I'm like, but love is not enough. I don't know what, how we were sold this message, that like love can overcompensate for the fact that he doesn't want children. So you have two options there. Either you're going to be resentful because you never had something that you want in your life, or he's going to resent the kids because he had kids he didn't want like, that's not going to end well. But like we do it because of this fear of being single and we do it because like we worry what if, and it's all of these negative, but honestly quite predictable thoughts. Like, what if I'm never going to find someone like him? What if like, we all do it, but none of it is true. And you don't know what's going to happen in your future. But all I know was I didn't want to spend my time regretting how much time and energy I'd put into someone else. And that's how I felt after my last relationship was I was like, how, how would my life be different if that time and energy I put into a relationship that was broken before it even began, if I had put that time and energy into myself. And it's why I don't, I don't regret, like the single period, I don't spend time thinking about whether it's going to end I do want a relationship now. And that's pretty much been changed since the pandemic.
Hannah Witton
I was going to ask actually, like how COVID impacted, like your dating life or like, what you've heard from other people as well.
Michelle Elman
So I was dating someone, like right before we went into a pandemic, and then we became long distance as a result. And then I think it genuinely changed my mindset around, I want a relationship now. Whereas like before, I was like open to a relationship, but it's not, it wasn't like, like something I was putting as a priority. And I think the difference is that, like, I don't know why in the last six months, I've got really maternal and I've got really like, I'm really liking being a homebody, and I'm like, I sometimes just want to stay at home and watch a movie with someone, I don't want to have to go out to see someone every time and I kind of am craving that period in a relationship where you don't have to go on a date to spend time with each other.
Hannah Witton
It's so weird, because it was exactly like that around the six year mark of being single. I was just like, actually, just having a person would be really nice.
Michelle Elman
But also like, I don't know about you, but like towards the end of your six year mark, but there are, there have been moments in the last year where I've had huge career accomplishments. And then I've come home, because I live by myself, I come home to an empty house. And I must say like it's, I have friends who are my biggest cheerleaders and it's like, it's great, but like I would also just like a member of my team, like a teammate to be like, in like know every detail of the journey and have been home to be like, congratulations today must have felt so amazing. And like I have a very self sufficient, independent person. But I also don't think it's wrong that I'm craving that and wanting that. And so that's why my priorities are changing.
Hannah Witton
No, nothing wrong with that at all. You mentioned about values. And actually, it kind of like ties into the boundary conversation and what somebody on Instagram asked, which is, when do you chat about this? Not wanting to scare people off, but also not wanting to waste time, the whole wasting time thing coming up again?
Michelle Elman
I think it's it comes in stages, right? So like the first few dates, you're not checking whether the guy wants to have kids, but I mean, it does naturally come up, like,
Hannah Witton
It does sometimes
Michelle Elman
Like if you're walking down the street, and like there's a baby in a crib and like your eyes go to it, which might naturally do because I'm quite, even like, from an early age, I've always been quite maternal. And like you just say something like, oh, that's so cute, and the guy is like, what, and hasn't even noticed that there's like a baby. Like, it's things like that, which you don't have to have an overt conversation about it. But that does give a clue. But it's also the fact that before you get to that point, there are other red flags that are like, that are more important, I think, like are they're decent human? Are they like, whatever your criteria are. So for me, it would be the fact that like, are they emotionally intelligent? Are they ambitious? Those are my top two criteria for someone I want to date. Can they communicate well? Those like, I would be looking for that in the first three things. And that doesn't require any actual conversation with them being like, Hey, are you ambitious? Because you can tell in their answer, like, I always say, ask the why question. So when someone tells me about their job, rather than saying, what do you do, like, why do you love it? Why do you do that? And that will give you a lot of information about the person. So you, but I think again, like, if I was dating like this a few years ago, it sucks the fun out of it, I must say, like sitting there feeling like you're going through a checklist of like, do you meet all my criteria, it's more so that you're active. What I how I do it now is I'm actively listening on a date, and I'm listening to what they're telling me. And I believe that what they're telling me is so important and tells you way more than like everything you need to know. And it comes across in like, small things, small comments that they make, like when I see a dating app that says I'm a bit of a dick but, and I'm like, you've literally told me who you are already. Like, people write that on their profiles. And I'm like, do you know what you're doing? Like saying that, I also, I got into a relationship with a guy who was said, like, will you be my girlfriend, but just to let you know, a bit of an asshole. And I still said yes. So I think that that's why
Hannah Witton
Maybe you're being like, well at least they're being honest.
Michelle Elman
Genuinely, that's word for word what I said. I was like, I said to my friends, at least he's self aware. You know, what's worse than an asshole also who's self aware? Someone who doesn't know they're being an asshole? No, no. wrong Michelle. No. I mean, I was 18. Like, I feel like you're, at that age, you make allowances and you make excuses for all kinds of behaviour just because you simply want to be loved and you want to, like have those milestone experiences. And because I had the mentality I was already like, behind on the like, I was always already behind all my friends. I felt like I had catching up to do and wanted those experiences. Whereas like now I mean, I don't know about you, but like the moment I lost my again, I hate the word virginity but like the moment I had
Hannah Witton
Your sexual debut,
Michelle Elman
I had my sexual debut. I literally went like, why is this such a like, worth defining thing? Because, like the fact that like, there are actually women out there who haven't had sex, who believe that they aren't good enough because they haven't had sex is mind boggling for someone who's has actually had sex. Whereas like, before you've had sex you were just like, no, I fully buy it. I fully believe it and then you have sex in your like, sorry what, that was meant to define my worth.
Hannah Witton
Yep, you're like I am still the same. And I'm still worth a bucket tonne of love.
Michelle Elman
Yeah, exactly, and like nothing's really changed. But it's like, I think it's the movies. I'm gonna blame it on the media, the media paints as this like life altering, life changing moment.
Hannah Witton
Oh, actually, I wanted to ask you about the media because I've been listening to your podcast and you do this segment where you take things that have happened on the TV, and kind of like dissect it in terms of like poor communication and like how to do it better. And so I was wondering if you've got any favourite, well, once you love and also ones that you hate, like media tropes around dating,
Michelle Elman
Like pretty much, I'm sorry, there is actually no good romcom that I found that is actually
Hannah Witton
Really?
Michelle Elman
I can't think of a single one that actually talks about being single as if it could be an active choice. And I think that leads into society where,
Hannah Witton
There was that How to Be Single movie a few years ago. But, I don't know,
Michelle Elman
Like, I mean, how many of those people in that movie ended up not being single by the end of the movie? Like,
Hannah Witton
At least one of them was single at the end.
Michelle Elman
Yeah
Hannah Witton
Hiking to the Grand Canyon, because that was what she wanted to do.
Michelle Elman
It's just, it's all, I don't know, I always feel like there's such a negative portrayal around around all romantic things. And then on the flip side, then it's always painted as if it's meant to be supposedly really easy. And like, the other trope is that like, if you have to work that hard, then it doesn't work, and you should find someone else. Er, sorry, every relationship friendship, platonic work, relationship requires work. And that's communication.
Hannah Witton
I think there's just balance with that, because then you can you get people who would like stay in really awful relationships, because they've internalised the idea that it's meant to be really difficult and really hard. So there is like this balance that you have to strike of like it, you know, it takes effort.
Michelle Elman
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But it's not going to be gruelling. Like it shouldn't be painful.
Michelle Elman
Exactly. And also that like you are two humans changing. So just because you go through like, a difficult period, like in a year in a knot, doesn't mean that's going to be the next six years. And if it is the next six years, and you probably should start considering that it's not the fact that you're in different life stages, it's more so that you are people that don't gel well together. And I definitely agree that there's a balance, but I feel like, you know what, I genuinely can't think of a good example, off the top of my head. I think the show This Is Us is quite good about showing human conversations like, less so about like relationships. Well, it's just about how we talk to each other. It's quite good at showing how we should talk to each other, and how messy communication can get. But the worst one that comes to mind is probably Normal People. I mean, the whole premise of that.
Hannah Witton
They're so bad at communicating!
Michelle Elman
But also, just like it's, you know, how when you have a conversation in your own head, and you're like, Oh, I wish I should have said that. That is the whole show. The whole show is, I wish you would have said something that you did not say
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also the fact that the two of them remember the same event differently, because in their head, they thought they said something which they didn't. It's both of them just like misinterpreting each other the entire time, and then having a really amazing sexual connection that has taken no effor whatsoever. I'm just like nah nah nah nah nah. That's not how it goes
Michelle Elman
Although isn't it Normal People. It's the first time I saw them have a conversation about a condom.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that was good, love that
Michelle Elman
I thought that was good. But I didn't appreciate a lot of the sexual stuff in Normal People, because I just think like, it painted the BDSM community badly, it painted communication bad, but like, and I just don't know whether I buy, and maybe this is from my own experiences, but I don't buy it that you can have that great, like sexual connection without at least having like some sort of emotional connection where like, not emotional connection,
Michelle Elman
Even just talking about sex.
Michelle Elman
But like communication, I guess that's a better word like, because like, I do mean, well, like you, you have some sort of spark, even just in communication, even if you don't want them romantically. That's what leads to like great chemistry, having sex, but without that. Yeah, I mean, I didn't like the critique that like, if they communicated there would have been no storyline, because I'm like, that's every TV show. But I also was like, Oh, this is a little, I enjoyed it as a show. I like really enjoyed it. I watch all of it, watch it pretty quickly. But I think like for me, that's probably the worst. Because it's I thought it was actually quite accurate, how people communicate and what you were saying around the fact that, like people remember things differently doesn't that happen in romantic relationships all the time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think that's the important like thing with Normal People is that whilst we're criticising the communication in it, it's actually really reflective of how we, how we do communication, which is not great.
Michelle Elman
Yeah, exactly. And that's why when people are like, that whole segment on my podcast, was born out of the fact that people are like, you're so big on communication, and then you watch these shows with awful communication? And I'm like, Yes, because you do realise that's how the rest of the world communicates. And when I first started learning boundaries with my life coach, I'd be like, I can't say that that's not normal. And my life coaches response would be a course it's not normal, normal, the benchmark for normal is not being able to communicate in our society.
Hannah Witton
It's so true, because I'm always communicating, but like, you have to then also acknowledge it's really difficult. And it's like a life time of like, practising.
Michelle Elman
Yeah, and like, so one of the, I remember, one of the times, I said, I talked about this in the book, were in my new book, and it's where my, she basically said, to set up a friend date with my housemate who I wasn't seeing and was missing a lot. And I was like, people don't do that, like you do that with your relationships, but like your romantic relationships, you don't go to your friend and like, hey, let's schedule in a date once a month, so that we actually see each other. And I was like, that's not normal. You don't that's not normal friendship. And my coach was like, you're right. It's not normal. Do you want normal? Or do you want better than normal? And I was like, okay, I guess I'll have that conversation then. But I was terrified. And I was really scared to do it. Because I was like, is my best friend gonna just laugh in my face and be like, that's a ridiculous idea, I've never heard of that.
Hannah Witton
You can just say it was my life coach's idea.
Michelle Elman
I was like it's wasn't my idea, I think, no accountability.
Hannah Witton
Well, you brought it up, you have got a new book coming out.
Michelle Elman
Yay!
Hannah Witton
A Joy of Being Selfish. And I'm really curious to know how you feel about the word selfish, because I remember when I turned 20, I turned around and said to my mum, this is going to be my selfish decade. And she kind of judged me for that. She was like, o, no, it's really bad being selfish. So I wanted to know your thoughts on the word.
Michelle Elman
So the funny thing is, my mom early found out the title of my book about two weeks ago, like literally right before I announced it, and I don't know whether I've done that consciously. But my mom's first reaction was like, why would you call a book that? And she was like, I didn't want my daughter to promote being selfish? What does that say about me, that I raised someone who wants to be selfish.
Hannah Witton
Bless our mums
Michelle Elman
I know. And I was like, no, just just wait until you read the book. But essentially, whenever someone sets a boundary, there are some really cliched responses, and I go through them in depth in the book, but like, involving words, like you're selfish, you're unforgiving. If you cut someone out, you're mean, you're being a bully, like all of these words are so stereotypical, and so predictable, that I almost wanted to reclaim it. But not only that, we talk about self love all the time. But we don't recognise that in order to actually have time for self love and self care, you need to make time for yourself. And in order to do that, you do have to put yourself before other people. And so people can really get on board with a wafty idea of self love. But I'm like boundaries are the practical side of self love. How do you have time for self love and self care when you're taking care of everyone else first. And if we look at like the opposite of selfish, that's selfless. And as much as like those people in society, I really praise, I see it from a different point of view where I'm like,
Hannah Witton
No, that's a really good point, yeah.
Michelle Elman
Selfless people are not doing it because they, they are so whole and so good as a human. They're doing it because they're insecure, and they aren't confident in their relationships. And therefore they think the more they do for other people, the more they will be loved and be worthy. So it's actually coming from a place of insecurity. It's not coming from a place of like being selfless. And so you're almost being selfless, selfishly. And you'll know that if you've ever been around a person who like prides themselves on their selflessness, where like, you're even trying to just order a takeaway, and you're like, What do you want? They're like, I don't mind I don't mind. Just state your opinion, I won't be offended, just say, say something, choose something.
Hannah Witton
What do you want
Michelle Elman
Yeah, And so that's where the title comes from, but also, very conveniently, I have a seven step process on how to set boundaries and all the first letters happens to spell the word selfish. So it's called the selfish method.
Hannah Witton
Oh I love it!
Michelle Elman
It's one of my, like, creative moments I had because I wrote in the pandemic, it was like one of those moments where it's like, I'm a genius!
Hannah Witton
Yeah and it's just wonderful when it all comes together like that.
Michelle Elman
Exactly. But I just think like we need to we we, I, like, boundaries are so, are seen as so controversial, especially when I talk about them online and I'm like, oh, but self love isn't. How do you not think these two are connected?
Hannah Witton
Or one of them's been commercialised. .
Michelle Elman
Yeah, exactly. It's turned into face masks and baths, bubble baths and whatnot. And I'm like, that has nothing to do with a boundaries, that has nothing to do with self love, but okay.
Hannah Witton
But they don't tell you how to make sure none of your family walk in on your precious bath time.
Michelle Elman
Exactly, or how to cut people out of your phonebook when like, like delete numbers and delete, we don't have phone books anymore, but delete numbers and delete messages, because that energy and also having those people in your life, but also cut out humans in real life as well. That's going to affect your mental health way more than having a bubble bath once a week.
Hannah Witton
So true, so true. Before we get into people's questions, from Instagram, which go deep into boundary stuff, I just wanted to ask you what is a life coach, because you keep talking about your life coach, and also you are a life coach. So I just wanted to ask about
Michelle Elman
So a life coach is essentially, I'm still not great at explaining it, essentially. So I originally wanted to be a psychologist and like, that's traditional psychology. So psychologists, psychotherapists, all of that, that's traditional psychology. And I just found when I was getting towards the end of my degree, that the point of view didn't align with the way I see things and how I believe the mind works. And therefore life coaching is almost like a more holistic side of personal development. I believe the differences, although it can get blurry, because some psychologists are, depends on the model, essentially. But I, the thing with life coaching, that tends to be the main theme is that it's more future focus. And traditional psychology is more past focus. So psychologists will ask what was wrong? What is wrong with you? And a life coach will ask, What do you want? What do you want to be different? Or like, what do you want in your future? And that's where my mindset is. And also, I don't believe anything is a problem unless it's obstructing you from the future you or the future that you want. Whereas, like, psychologists will go into your childhood, and your past, which I do if it comes up and it's obstructing your life.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, that makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. That kind of like how I see the difference between like, sex therapy and sex coach as well. So like, sex therapy is the looking back. And the sex coaching is like, what is your ideal sex life? Let's work towards that.
Michelle Elman
Yeah. And I think the difficulty is, and why it's so hard to define is because like life coaching isn't, doesn't have a monitoring body. So like, traditional psychologists have the British Psychological Society, the BPS, and so you have to get accredited in certain ways. Whereas like, life coaches don't have to and therefore I'm five board accredited, but not every life coach has any acquired accreditation or any qualifications. And I'm trained in something called neuro linguistic programming, timeline therapy and NLP coaching and hypnotherapy. I have a few other ones, anyway.
Hannah Witton
The neural linguistic programming, I feel heard about that the through the game like,
Michelle Elman
Yes. Would you train in it, you start to meet a lot of pick up artists and it is the funniest thing at first, and then like, I don't know, I had such as mixed feelings at first. But like, basically, rewind to five years ago, when I first got qualified. I found it so weird, every single person because I wasn't using the term life coach, I was saying, like, I was an NLP therapist. And every guy I spoke to knew what I was talking about, and every girl didn't. And I was like, Why? Why is this and then I like one of my guide for it was actually a guy used to date. And he was like, what do you do now? And he was like, Oh, you're trained in NLP? And then he mentioned the game. And I was like, Is this how every guy I'm speaking to knows what like, what I'm trained in. And so it was very interesting conversation where he basically said, Oh, but don't worry, I didn't use it on you. I was like, bullshit. You so did. And also he taught me some of his techniques. Where, one I've not been, I don't know whether this is interesting, but I found this fascinating. Where he basically and so we all like how I met this guy and how we were all in Bristol University and we were going out to clubs. And you would get with guys sometimes in a very loud club where you haven't asked each other your names and whatnot by the end of the night, like you tend to walk out the club togetherm and then they asked for your number, right? And he would then go. So he'd be like, Oh, can I have your number actually, wait, hold on, What's my name? Knowing that he never told her his name? And then she would be like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot. No mind. I don't want to anymore and he walks away. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh no, I hate it
Michelle Elman
I know, it's like, when I first thought about this, I was like, it's so sickening, though. Because like, I could tell why it works, especially from a psychology perspective. And she then she chases off to him. And so in his words, he was like, the power dynamic has shifted. And also in her memory, she actually asked for my number.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, well, yeah. It's terrifying. Yeah, I read The Game. And yeah.
Michelle Elman
Just to clarify the NLP, essentially, how pickup artists use it is to implant insecurities in people. Obviously, as a therapist, I'm doing the opposite. I'm using the same techniques to remove in securities. And actually a lot of the conversations I would have with these people, because I was just curious how you get into that life path, and also how you can do that, like, consciously and ethically with a clear conscience. And the main thing they would say is like, you don't think women are doing this to us? Like, and they would also say, like, well, there were a lot of them who basically said, there are playgirls. You know how they were like playboys, but they were calling them playgirls. And he was like their playgirls who do the exact same thing. And I was like, Yeah, but they're not the people you're using on, you're using it on the most insecure. And that's because those techniques only work on the insecure people and so that you're doing it on the people who are playing the same game as you is not accurate at all.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you tell them. I got some questions through Instagram, we can fire through these. Somebody asked if there's such a thing as too many boundaries.
Michelle Elman
No, but there is such a thing as you are putting up walls instead of boundaries. So walls allow, walls block out everyone. It's like a shut door or shut house, all the windows are like, blocked up. A boundary is you live inside your house, but you can open the door and you can open the window. Boundaries allow for intimacy in a safe way, whereas walls are blocking off everyone because you don't want to make yourself vulnerable.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so walls not great, but have as many boundaries as you like, yeah. Love it. Somebody asked how to be there for your partner without being overwhelmed by their trauma on top of your own issues,
Michelle Elman
Boundary it. Boundaries is the simple way. So you always want to be supporting your partner, you don't want to be taking care taking your partner, so you want to support them while they have their emotions. Do not onboard their emotions as your own.
Hannah Witton
Simple as that. I guess people will have to get your book to like dive deeper into these things and get the help.
Michelle Elman
We can go deeper. I mean, there's a lot within that question, for example, like it was moreso because you were like quickfire!
Hannah Witton
I love quickfire as there's a few more questions. When is the book out, by the way, so people know, they can pre order it now.
Michelle Elman
Fourth of February and yeah, pre order now.
Hannah Witton
Just ready for Valentine's day
Michelle Elman
Exactly. That was not done on purpose, Well, actually, it totally was!
Michelle Elman
Everything is in the publishing world
Michelle Elman
Everything is on purpose.
Hannah Witton
So somebody asked, What if your partner disagrees with some boundaries? And doesn't want to have that kind of chat?
Michelle Elman
Well, so that's two questions, really, because what if someone disagrees with your boundaries, then you set your boundaries, they set theres, you have a conversation, you compromise, you come up with a solution that suits both of yours. If they don't want to have a conversation about it, then that's a whole other set of issues. And what I have found in the last like, because I've had boundaries in my own life for about five, six years. And it's been a learning curve. And what I discovered is that sometimes the setting of the boundary actually gives you way more information about your relationship than the actual problem did. So how someone responds to a boundary gives you that information to be like, You're not even going to have a conversation with this. What about this with me, then that's telling me more about this relationship? And what, what's the harm in the conversation unless you think it's going to end the relationship, which means like, it's actually counterintuitive. Like if you actually can talk about things, I think you can solve really big problems, but you also create really big problems if you can't communicate.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, 100% stuff still comes up for me and Dan, like all the time, where every so often one of us is just like, Okay, this thing's been building up, let's have a chat and see what we can.
Michelle Elman
But actually, I think I saw one of your YouTube videos where, it's funny because I have a section in my book about it, but it's also I saw it in one of your YouTube videos after I'd written it. And I was like, this is spooky, where you do, like, I don't know whether you said you did it weekly or monthly, but you do a check in with each other.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so I don't think we've done one for a while. But we still kind of joke about it. But yeah, like in the first couple years of dating, we would do like a yearly check in. But it would, it was just always quite jokey. So it felt very accessible. And it didn't feel very scary. Because whilst what we were ommunicating about, and the content was really important, the way that we packaged it up, felt very non threatening. So we can be like, how this last year been for you? Is there anything that you would like to improve? What highlights has there been?
Michelle Elman
But it's such good communication? And I know, like, it's to some people listening it might be like, that's so unconventional, almost in the same way that I said, like that I had a friend date like, Oh, that's unconventional. Yes, it's unconventional, but it's so healthy and so good. In the same way that when I set boundaries with, like, I set boundaries with like, very casual relationships as well, like, I'll set boundaries with a guy, like, I mean, for an example, a guy was coming over, like very, like, friends with benefits kind of relationship. And he wouldn't give me a time he was coming over. And I was like, No, that doesn't work for me, like, tell me a time otherwise, I'm making other plans. And he replied, being like, Alright, Miss Sassy, 3pm it is. And I was like, how odd is it that suddenly you didn't know your schedule two minutes ago and now you suddenly do. But it's not the fact he didn't know, his schedule. It was that like, me setting a boundary was like, I'm not going to tolerate that behaviour meant that he changed his his behaviour. And like all of these things, everyone's like, Oh, well, it's not conventional, you can't set boundaries with all of these rules about how we should have our relationships it doesn't work that way. And
Hannah Witton
Also, that didn't sound awkward exchange between the two of you
Michelle Elman
There was a big controversy around boundaries, I think, earlier this year, where someone had done this Twitter thread about boundaries. And there was so much backlash because they'd done it in a very formal way. And so there were a lot of like memes being done. I don't know whether you saw it around, like, like, hh, your mum died, I'll respond to you in three to five working days. And like, was very much like, LinkedIn, automatic response kind of thing. And I was like, do you know how casually I set boundaries with friends sometimes. Like sometimes. I mean, five years in, I sometimes literally just say the word boundaries, if they keep pushing something, and they won't dropping, I'm like boundaries. And then they're like, okay, yeah, but like you, it gets to a point where it's when, especially when you're familiar with someone, you can do it really casually, it doesn't have to be a serious conversation. You can laugh while you're doing it. And it's, it's, once you're in the practice of it, you can understand how it can be so casual. At the beginning, it seems like this really daunting task, because you think you have to like, follow all the steps. And even in the book, I said the seven steps things, but like, even at the end, I'm like, this is not how you will continue to set boundaries. This is like giving you a guidepost for the beginning of you setting boundaries, but like now, it's very casual. Like with one of my best friends, she was moaning about an ex who she'd broken up with, like four times, and I just, I didn't have the capacity for it. I was actually like, I'm not having the same conversation for the fourth time. And so I didn't say that what I said was, I don't have the emotional capacity for this shit. Then the funny thing was this whole controversy about this Twitter thread came up a week later. And I said to her, like, was it really harsh when I sent that? And she was like, no, it's more human than what this Twitter thread is? Because at least that was like, that is how you speak though. So like, I was like, Yeah, you're right. You have listened to the same conversation four times, like, so I just dropped and she was like, I don't think you would reply in the same way if my mom had died, like and I was like, of course I wouldn't. Because like boundaries require common sense. Yeah, exactly. But it does get to a point where it's, it's very casually done and you it doesn't need to be this big, lot, or even long conversation. Like how the example with the friends with benefits. It was actually like two sentences, but it was a firm boundary.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I like I like that. And someone came around.
Michelle Elman
Let's look at the opposite situation. If I hadn't had said that, which, when I was 18 years old, I wouldn't have because I wouldn't be like I want to be liked. I don't want them to think I'm being annoying. I want to be the easygoing, free, carefree person that like every guy advertises for on dating apps. And so I would be like, Yeah, no problem. I'm chill, don't worry about it. And what I would have done was sat around the whole next day, in resentment being like, you're wasting my time. And let's say he didn't actually end up turning up. I would have been like, I sat in the entire day waiting for you. But then who, who actually is in the wrong here? Me because I didn't set my boundaries or like, cuz he told me he was going to let me know. But I let him waste my time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And that kind of comes back to your empowered dating thing as well. Because like one of those situations you get, like what you want and, and it feels great. And the other, you feel like shit.
Michelle Elman
And genuinely, I actually think like, his respect for me went up when because this was a guy who like this was the guy at the beginning, who like we ended up seeing each other for a bit. But like the guy at the beginning, who I hadn't spoken to in two years. And when he came when he came over, he actually said, like, you're quite different to how you are two years ago. And I was like, what do you mean, and he was like, I mean, I could turn up whenever I wanted to two years ago. Like, I felt so proud of myself. But then I also felt like, oh, and you knew it, like you knew you could mess me around. Like once you have that moment where you're like, Oh, I thought, I thought I was, like, subtly being easy going and carefree. No, the other party know what you're doing, they know that you're so desperate to be liked, that, like, they will just use that to their advantage. And to be honest, I've got to a point in my life where I'm like, who can blame them? Because like, now that I have boundaries? I'm like, Well, if you're going to do everything for me and make my life really easy, then why would I not jump on board?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Somebody asked, and I think this is a good one for all of us. How do I start to figure out what my boundaries should be?
Michelle Elman
Ask yourself what you actually want. Or, like, an easier way is to ask yourself what you don't want. Because a lot of the times, I don't know what I want, and I'm like no, but you know what you don't want. And you also know when you're being treated badly. And that's where you start setting the boundaries. So the very simplest boundary, I didn't even explain what boundaries are. So boundaries are the difference between me and you. It's the separation between us. It's the fence in our backyard, you don't put the fence up because you hate the other person, you put the fence up to protect your land. And it's the same thing. And so it's how, it's how you want to be treated. And it's also to make sure that we are to separate individuals, especially in relationship, to separate, like identities and individuals. Because, so for example, a couple who don't have that are those couples where like you tell one partner, so so you tell your best friend something, and they tell their partner, that thing you've told them in confidence because they don't have secrets? And it's like, no, you don't have boundaries? And so anyone who's like, Oh, I don't know how to set boundaries. I don't know where to start. I'm always like the first boundary you learn is the word no, start using it when you mean the word no, start saying yes when you mean yes and no when you mean no. Because people with good boundaries mean what they say and say what they mean. And that's essentially where you start. And I don't buy it that you don't know, when you're, when you feel bad when someone says something bad to you, because it's inside your body, you can feel it, you do know that. Even if your first step is simply going don't speak to me like that. That is a boundary. So you can start saying that and like once you tune into your body more and you realise when anger arises, anger and resentment are the two biggest warning signs that you have a boundary that's been crossed, and you need to say something about it. So rather than questioning your anger or questioning, oh, should I, I do I have a right to this anger? Maybe I'm overreacting, all of that. Instead go Oh, my boundaries being crossed.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh my god. That's so true. That anger and resentment ones for me, are personally when I start to notice that those are things that I'm feeling. That's what I'm like, oh, okay, something some boundary has just been crossed. Or I have a new boundary that I didn't realise existed and I need to tell someone about it.
Michelle Elman
It's a really important point, your boundaries can change. And we change them all the time. I used to have a boundary where I don't talk about my love life or dating life online at all, which and to be honest, the only reason I changed that boundary was because I was frustrated at the lack of positive date, positive dating and positive single stories that were in the media. And I wanted to be part of the single group that changed that so that's why I changed my boundary because I was like, I want to change this. And so my like my not my privacy, but how much I discussed it, definitely changed, my online boundaries changed.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's another really huge piece is that it's not just your personal boundaries between you and like friends, partners, family, but like with social media, like you like social media is a separate entity that you also need to have boundaries with.
Michelle Elman
You're a really good example of like the love life and online boundaries, where for a long time, you didn't say, you didn't share Dan at all, and then you didn't share his name for ages, but you were talking about your boyfriend. Those are all different boundaries. And that was to your comfort level and you changing it. I don't know whether you ever got any backlash around when you started being more open about it.
Hannah Witton
No, I think it was so gradual, because it was all just like really incremental with what I was comfortable with and what Dan was comfortable with. So it was just really slow, of us just kind of like, pushing them as we felt comfortable.
Michelle Elman
Great example of, not only healthy, like love life boundaries, because it was also respecting Dan, but also healthy online boundaries, which frankly, I don't see a lot of influencers do, which is why I notice it.
Hannah Witton
I mean, I could, it also comes down to like, sometimes I think, oh God, I wouldn't do that. And just because I wouldn't do that doesn't necessarily mean it's unhealthy boundary setting for that person. Oh, yeah. I do get a bit like, Oh my god, I can never imagine myself doing that.
Michelle Elman
So this happened where I went away to Devon with my best friend and I went on her phone to change her dating app. And I put up my stories and a lot of like, my following was like, isn't that bad boundaries, you're going on her phone without her permission, you're changing her dating app without her permission. I was like, You can't tell me what my boundaries with my best friend are. Me and my best friend go on our phones, like each other's phones, all the time. If she had an issue with it, she would have told me the first time I did it. But like the reason why we both have each other's passwords, means like, we're fine with that, with each other. Also, it doesn't mean now everyone is allowed on my phone. Because if a boyfriend did that, I don't think I'd appreciate it. And I will tell them the first time they did that, but like you can't decide for me. There's no such thing as going on someone's phone is a bad boundary. No, it's specific to the person. It's specific to the context. It's specific to the person whose phone it is, what is allowed. Whereas like, my dad's very protective of his phone, and my mom is not my mom could not care less. Like things like that, where it's, it's different for each person. So we have to recognise that you can't decide someone's boundaries for them.
Hannah Witton
So true. Well, Michelle, I think we're gonna leave it there. Thank you so so much for chatting with me. Always so insightful.
Michelle Elman
Thank you so much for having me on!
Hannah Witton
Where can people find you online? And where can people find your new book?
Michelle Elman
I am Scared Not Scared on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter. I think that's it. And you can find my new book on Amazon, Waterstones or, pretty much everywhere that sells books. There is, I think there should be a audiobook available. There's an eBook available. So yeah, thanks so much for having me on. I had such a great time.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much. And thank you all for listening, bye.
Michelle Elman
Bye.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast