Gender Euphoria, Chosen Family and Being Non-Binary with Jamie Windust | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Jamie Windust
There's no need for my gender identity to be placed before a job, or before something. I can understand in modelling, you know you have male models, female models, fine. But gender isn't necessarily specific to the fact that I can do a job in front of a camera. And it's also limiting because it means that I'm often only booked within campaigns, or within photoshoots because of my gender identity. Now don't get me wrong, that is, in essence, positive discrimination. Fine, however great time-specific moment on when you are allowed to work.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. This week's guest is none other than the brilliant Jamie Windust. Jamie is a model, contributing editor at Gay Times, and a recently published author with their new book In Their Shoes, navigating non binary life. In this episode, we chat all about their book, what makes Jamie feel gender euphoria, what is chosen family and why is it so important, we get into the role of fashion and makeup in Jamie's journey discovering and learning about their gender.. We talk about experiences dating, de-pedestalling romance, and Jamie's Snapchat archive. We don't talk about this in the episode, but I wanted to mention it here. A couple months ago, the UK Government scrapped its plans to reform the gender recognition act, something that it had been promising for years, and that had tonnes of public support. The reform would have allowed trans people to self identify their gender, including non binary people, I believe, without having to get a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which is a process trans people have described as intrusive and humiliating. So I went digging to see if there are currently any plans in the UK Parliament for the legal recognition of non binary as a gender. In March 2020, the Court of Appeal ruled that the home office's refusal to issue gender neutral x passports to UK citizens was lawful, for now. But they said that if this international trend towards widespread recognition of non binary identity continues, then maybe in the future, it would be a breach of human rights, which to me feels like saying we're going to wait and see if this is just a phase, which it isn't. But there is currently a private member's bill that is in its very early stages, in Parliament, to introduce an X gender on passports. The second reading isn't scheduled until January 2021. But it's definitely something for us to keep an eye on. And literally in between the time of me recording this intro and this episode going out. Hello, this is Hannah from the future here. There has been more news. The Case for an X gender on passports is being heard by the UK Supreme Court. And who knows maybe by the time you're listening to this more has changed. But hopefully this is really good news. Okay, that is enough of the law and politics. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. Okay Is my conversation with the wonderful Jamie Windust? Welcome, Jamie. So good to have you here.
Jamie Windust
Thank you so much. Please can you say my name and your delicious accent.
Hannah Witton
Jamie Windust
Jamie Windust
I love that.
Hannah Witton
You're welcome. Getting that northern twang out. Erm, congrats on your book, by the way in their shoes, I listened to the audiobook so I had your wonderful voice, in my ears, your accent in my ears, telling the whole story.
Jamie Windust
That was, that was a wild ride. D'you know what, audio books, you think it's gonna be fun, erm
Hannah Witton
You just, have a dry mouth,
Jamie Windust
Dry mouth, sore throat, honestly, next level. Also, having to listen to your own voice for five. Because I looked at it and it was five hours long. I was like God, whoever decides to listen to this and I now know that that was you and you alone.
Hannah Witton
I'm sure other people have as well.
Jamie Windust
But thank you for listening. We did it, they were being a bit funny because they were like, you can't, you've got to speak very carefully and I was like fine, but the funny bits I wanted to be like, casual.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it came across like I definitely laughed, I think in the appropriate parts where you're supposed to laugh. And there was Yeah, there was like, I don't know, your, your humour, and stuff definitely came through. I did think sometimes, I was like if I was an American, some of this would fly over me.
Jamie Windust
Because it's very dry.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, very dry. And there's like, it definitely came across like, this air of confidence, just being like, oh, and I threw together this amazing look. I looked incredible. And like, I'm reading that or listening to it as, slightly sarcastic, but also you're like, no, I absolutely did look incredible.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, absolutely. You know, call a spade a spade babe.
Hannah Witton
Exactly, exactly. But yeah, the book. To me, it felt like just this really caring, like love letter. And I wanted to ask you, who was it for? Like, when you were writing it, who kind of do you have in mind?
Jamie Windust
Hmm, great question. I think, for me, when I was writing it, it was a lot of it obviously, is anecdotal, and it talks through lots of different sections of my life. But I think part of me was writing it for my younger self. It sounds proper wanky, but part of me was writing it, in a way, to be like, what would I have wanted to hear? And then the other part of me was writing it for the abundance of young, trans people right now. Or just genuinely young people. I think, obviously, the book is identity specific. It's about my life as a non binary person. But at the end of the day, as well, I think there's a lot of, hopefully universal messages in there that are applicable to people of all genders.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, a friend of mine, who's a gay, cis man, he was saying on social media, just like how much he wasn't expecting it to resonate with his own experiences as well.
Jamie Windust
Was it Callum?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jamie Windust
Hi Callum
Hannah Witton
Hi Callum
Jamie Windust
You know, his, his review, and I have a couple of kind of cis, straight, white guys that I know, there's not very many, but that were, that were kind of saying the same. And I was like do you know what, although I do want this to be a love letter to young trans people, I'm also, am in awe and over the moon, in a way, that it's touched more people than just trans people. Because like I said, I think the messages of self acceptance, work stresses a lot of chapters, the chapter on kind of my work life, and relationships that I think we could all relate to aspects of the book. Mine just has a slightly different skew on it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think one of the things that really came through for me, which I feel like we've maybe skirted around on this podcast before, but I just wanted to really dive into that, and it was chosen family. And could you please tell us what chosen the family is? And like, why it's so important?
Jamie Windust
Yeah. So I think chosen family often is synonymous with the LGBTQ plus community in the essence that it is a group of people that you have an innate connection with, that aren't biologically your family, but you feel instantly at home with. You know, we all there's people that we gravitate towards, and we meet, and we instantly are like you are my people. And I think it's that feeling of like, no matter what's going on in your biological family, you know, that you can actually, in this instance, choose your people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Jamie Windust
And I think people forget that often, you know, it's very easy to become fixed with these ideas of relationships, like family, like romantic relationships.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we have like a hierarchy.
Jamie Windust
Absolutely. And it's like, um, you know, I'm not going to sit here and say that it's not something that we all would love; to have a loving, warm relationship with our family. However, the reality is, a lot of us don't. And I think the brilliance of chosen family is that it allows you to feel yourself worth. Often, if you don't have a brilliant relationship with your family, it can make you feel like you're a failure, or that something's wrong with you. So I think by finding that connection through chosen family is bloody brilliant, because you can be like, fuck you mum, I have like 10 mums now.
Hannah Witton
10 mums, sounds great. One of the things, erm I can't remember where I first heard it, but it's kind of connected to the chosen family thing, but with the LGBTQ plus community specifically, when it comes to like a marginalised group, oftentimes, if it's like race or religion, you would be born into a family who have similar experiences and the knowledge and the love and support can be passed down through generations. But LGBTQ plus people don't necessarily birth LGBTQ plus people. And so you, there's that isolation, like potential feeling, which, to me kind of like, shows even moreso why chosen family is important?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, although that is, you know, although what you said is true, in that often with other sectors of society, there are, it's passed down generation, I think the almost the pro of LGBTQ plus chosen family is that there is no limit to it, there is no boundaries to it, no kind of rhyme or reason to it, there's no rules with it. You know, you can find your people, they don't have to be any age, they don't have to be any, you know, geographical location is really important, like a lot of my chosen family don't live around the corner, you know, they're dotted all around the place. So it's like, the best, you know, is difficult because you do and then have to route and find them out and find your people. And that can be difficult. However, when it comes to actually choosing who your chosen family are, there are no limits to it. It's just whoever brings you nourishment.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that, the nourishment. That's so key. I think oftentimes, when we're hearing stories about trans people, there's often a lot of talk about gender dysphoria. And I wanted to ask you, what makes you feel gender euphoria?
Jamie Windust
I see what you've done there
Hannah Witton
Yeah, What makes you feel affirmed in your gender, as a non binary person?
Jamie Windust
I think just being able to like, do what I do, but I fancy, you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just being you.
Jamie Windust
Well, yeah, I think often people think the trans people or any marginalised group, that we have, like a very specific set of things that we do all the time. Or like, it's like, well, no, I love, you know, I go, I go to Co-Op, same as you go to Co-Op. I go, you know, I go for walks and moan about the telly, I moan about the rain, just like I think for me, it's just like being able to go into any situation. And for me that euphoria is felt when I can just rock up, fit in, gender is not an issue, pronoun is not an issue, and I just can glide in, do what I need to do, and glide out. Sometimes, that is very difficult. With work, sometimes that's difficult, socially, you know, a lot of the time, the problems that trans people face are put upon them, rather than us being the problem.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Jamie Windust
And for me, that took a long time to figure out to be like, actually, you know, me existing in this room is not the problem. The accessibility in this room is the problem. The fact that I can't exist in this space, comfortably, is not a burden on my shoulders. It's something that other people need to continue to work on.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I guess, follow up question to that. Like, if you are somebody who is creating spaces, how do you make them more accessible to trans people?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, I think, you know, I do, I've started working more closely with people this year to consult with them, to kind of answer this very question. And I think it's, you know, it does seem like quite a monumental question. But I think one important thing is to just listen to trans people, you know, often people get themselves in the right flap about what to do. And then you realise, there's not actually any trans people in the room, who are telling them, you know, this is what's good, this is what's not good. So it's like, you know, with all things, if you don't know something, don't just sit there and try and work it out yourself if you don't think you're going to be able to. Do your own education, do your own work, and then if you're like, I still don't really get it, pay a trans person to consult with you on a project. It's not ,this is what I find baffling, it's not that difficult if you did, if it was like any other problem, like say more like business specific problem that you
Hannah Witton
You'd be like, we need an expert.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, and you were like, ah shit, I don't know what I'm talking about here. For example, I like to think that I'm well versed on the game of football, but I'm not. So if someone came to me and was like, Jamie, we'd love to know what you think about the 434 formation.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, how do you even though, you you're just saying numbers now.
Jamie Windust
I obviously wouldn't just like try and fumble my way through it. I'd be like, well, I don't know. Let me ask my brother who actually is a sports journalist. I'd be like, babe, what's this? You know, I might pay him but you know, it's just things would naturally be like, I don't know, so I'm going to outsource.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Though, that's really great, simple advice.
Jamie Windust
It's not that difficult.
Hannah Witton
No, it shouldn't be really shouldn't be. One thing that you are an expert on, I would say, and hopefully you would say too, is fashion and makeup.
Jamie Windust
Correct, yeah.
Hannah Witton
And this is another thing that is like so key to in your book, because obviously, it's just like so key to who you are, and your and your life and everything. And I just wanted to ask you about how fashion and makeup have played a role in you learning about your gender, but then also like your gender expression?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, I think it's definitely, it definitely plays a part because for me, when I was beginning to explore my fashion sense, and my beauty sense, it was at the exact same time that I was beginning to explore gender. And at the time, I didn't really, I hadn't put two and two together. And that's why the chapter in the book about fashion is called the key in the lock, because I was like, these two, don't just go hand in hand, like they solve each other, they are made for each other. So for me, being able to, you know, it's like a step by step, what on one hand, I would start exploring clothing and then that would lead me to thinking about gender, and that would lead me to doing research, and then that research would lead me to feeling more comfortable, I would then feel more comfortable to be able to explore different clothing, and it would kind of just, it escalated like that. And like they kind of fed, really fed into each other. And I still to this day, and and I remember when I was 16 I'm very stubborn, erm, I'm very forthright. So once I just got my mind on being like, I want to wear these shoes, or I really loved that dress, let's buy it, I would just do it. And sometimes I look back and think of the fuck that I have that much like oomf? Because it was you know, it was a lot less discussed back then. Even then, you know, like 2014/15. And now, I look back and I'm like how did I do that? But I did and I'm thankful that I did you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, thank you past Jamie.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, thanks babe. I went, actually I downloaded Snapchat yesterday.
Hannah Witton
Oh, what's going on there these days
Jamie Windust
Not to use it but just to go, because you know, it has like all your archive on it.
Hannah Witton
I did not
Jamie Windust
It's still there. So I went back. And I was watching videos of myself from like 2015. And I was like why did no one tell me that I was like, the most annoying person ever? Like, I'm sure they did and I just ignored them. But
Hannah Witton
We all think that about our past selves, though.
Jamie Windust
That's true. But I'm still fairly young. So it's not, it's not actually that long ago. It was 2016, not that long ago.
Hannah Witton
No, it isn't. Oh, actually, I did want to ask you, how old are you? Do you consider yourself? Are you Gen Z?
Jamie Windust
Er, yeah. 23.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, your Gen Z. We are of different generations because that kind of like came up in the book as well a bit and I wanted to ask you about how you see the differences and understandings of like around trans and around non binary, between millennials and Gen Z because I like I definitely, as someone who's a millennial, do see a difference. Like I see 18 year olds who are way more clued up and like knowledge about these things than I am.
Jamie Windust
First of all, I didn't realise that were you a millennial?
Hannah Witton
I'm I'm 28. I'm a young millennial.
Jamie Windust
Okay, cool, I thought you were gonna drop a bomb then and be like, 35 I was like, no, you're not babe. I think, yeah, definitely. And one thing that I really love about the response to the book has been the generations below me being like, this is this is exactly what I believe in. This is exactly what I stand for.
Hannah Witton
Amazing
Jamie Windust
And that's really lovely because it's like, you know, even when I was that age, I didn't have that access to knowledge. A lot of people didn't have that access, or awareness of their identities. So that was bloody brilliant. I think generationally, and this is, this isn't just trans specific, this often happens on lots of discussions around marginalised identities. That there is a gap, and there is there is a kind of, I don't know if it's like a stereotype ,that there is a gap in kind of age correlating with understanding and being open to learning. I think one way that I try and do it, for example with my family on other issues such as you know, class, race, like ability, all these types of things like just drip feed into conversation. So instead of, you know, there's a time and a place for going hell for leather and being like, hold on, that's wrong, let's discuss, sometimes I'll just, I'll just drop it in, I'll just like, feed it into conversation, and then it starts discussion, and then you can kind of find out where everyone's on their learning level. And then, you know, not saying that I'm the fucking oracle, but if you're listening to something that is clearly problematic, or you know, that you you understand it maybe slightly more than someone else, you can open up that dialogue. You know, that's incredibly important for me to do on other issues, such as race, and ability, and class, and fat phobia, and all of those things. But for me, when it comes to trans issues, I don't necessarily do it as much anymore. Because it's not, it's quite jarring for me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I there's a difference I think between like, hello family, or whoever is, let's sit down and have a conversation about, insert topic here. But yeah, I like the kind of like drip feeding it in and it just becoming a part of your language and just becoming a part of the conversations that you have where eventually it doesn't, it doesn't feel like your your family or whoever it is that you're speaking to, aren't, like shocked, or like taken aback or immediately go on the defensive when you like, bring stuff up, because it becomes like a normal discourse that you're having. And like using things like like you said, like, if you hear something or watch something, like if you're watching TV together, or a film together, and like something is a bit like, Oh, ouch. Like saying that out loud, like just putting a voice to it.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a misconception around that, you know, when a lot of people talk about things like this, they, it's quite easy to visualise in your head that, you know, people are, people like me are going back to our like, really open and warm, loving family, and we will sit down and have like a sort of fucking panel discussion on. You know, it's not, it's not at all. And for me, most of the time, is not it's not like a lovely chat, do you know what I mean. There's a lot of discussion, there's hostility, there's kind of lots of differing opinions, and I think, dependent on what issue you're talking about, if you hold a privilege in that space, and you are able to be forthright and actually try and, you know, vocalise that these things are wrong with other people's opinions and bias and that type of thing. You should continue. Obviously look after yourself, and don't wear yourself out. However, you know, these thought processes won't change unless people are having conversation.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. 100%. I kind of wanted to u-turn a bit, back to the kind of related to the fashion side of things. You're also a model and
Jamie Windust
Thank you very much
Hannah Witton
A study model. And I wondered if being non binary and a model and like how they impact one another? And if, and what your experiences in that space of being like.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, and I'll say this now, for the record.
Hannah Witton
For the record
Jamie Windust
I am fucking bored. Period. No, I'm fucking bored of being like, a non binary model. I was talking to Kenny Ethan Jones, a lovely trans guy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Jamie Windust
Who's also a model, absolute beef cake, about this over summer and we were like, there's no need for my gender identity to be placed before a job or before something. I can understand in modelling, you know, you have male model, male models, female models. However, like when that model is on set, they're not then in the final product, captioned is like non binary model. It wouldn't be like male Oh, actually, no, sometimes they do say male model. But like, well no, they kind of will just be like a model, do you know what I mean.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Jamie Windust
Gender isn't necessarily specific to the fact that I can do a job in front of a camera and it's also limiting because it means that I'm often only booked within campaigns or within photoshoots because of my gender identity. Now don't get me wrong, that is, in essence, positive discrimination. Fine. However, what that does, however, is a great time specific moment on when you are allowed to work. But it's difficult. It's really frustrating because it's like, no matter how hard you talk about these things and banging your head against the wall, it's like, well, sometimes people just aren't going to change. You know, there'll be some good eggs, but some people just won't, won't shift. So yeah, as I said, with Kenny, if you hot, your hot. And if you can model,
Hannah Witton
There you go, just put hot model instead of your non binary model
Jamie Windust
Honestly, yeah. Lets put sensational model. I'm not even
Hannah Witton
Lets manifest it now. Like what kind of modelling jobs do you like, want to be getting let's let's just do it.
Jamie Windust
I'm just putting it into the world, I've always wanted to do like Calvin Klein, I think it would be just be hilarious. And like a buzzy song.
Hannah Witton
I was like, imagining, like the classic kind of like macho male, like Calvin Klein, like in the jeans. I was just like, that would be amazing.
Jamie Windust
Like proper 90s, black and white. Or, I've always wanted to, and I loved doing runway, and I've done a couple of runways, but I would love a proper production, fancy, hilarious runway. Because it's just brilliant. You just get to like, be an absolute dick. Walk down, walk down, the walk back. And then like,
Hannah Witton
And everyone's cheering
Jamie Windust
Yeah, and look at, look at everyone else like their fucking shit.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, just above everybody else, get to look down on them all. Ideal, I love it. Erm, in the book, you talk a bit about your experiences with dating. And I love talking about dating.
Jamie Windust
I'm aware, my love. I was waiting to get onto this like
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I also just like living vicariously through people now. What have those experiences been been like, I guess? Does your gender come up? Like, is it something that you have to navigate as a challenge, or a great opportunity.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, I mean, in the book, I gave two very specific examples of like an okay situation, and a shit one. Just for balance. And both of those stories, and both of those experiences included gender. Both of those stories were about how gender impacted the relationship. And I think there's, for me, there's been two ways it can go, it can either turn into like instant fetishisation, which isn't ideal all the time, you know, sometimes it fine, but not all the time. Or it can turn, and obviously this is quite specific to me, but I ended up in a very minor, but my first ever relationship, which is about three or four months, with someone who was non binary, which was amazing. But it also does mean that it can feel quite intense, because it can often get to a point where a lot of your conversations can be about gender, which is fine if we're in the space for that. But personally in that moment, I was like, I don't, I don't, like I don't even want to be having this chat all the time. But the positives of that is that there was no like, there was no awkward questions, there was no kind of like, stress about having to come out to your date or having to like explain things because men are stupid. Often, because I'm queer but I predominately mate, date, mate, I predominately date men.
Hannah Witton
Date and mate
Jamie Windust
Date and mate. Yeah, I predominately date man and like non binary people. So kind of queer on that spectrum. And for me, like, no matter how much you share on your dating profile that you are non binary, or trans, a lot of
Hannah Witton
Do you put that on your bio?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, and a lot of them to see it and ignore it. And so then it makes it frustrating because then you have to come out and it's all a bit awkward. So now I've kind of, I'm not, I'm happily not dating, I'm happily don't need it, I don't, I don't, I'm not in the place for you know, it's like, it's too much.
Hannah Witton
There's also a pandemic,
Jamie Windust
Right, like, I'm not going to be going on bloody walk dates or video dates. None of that. And it's just a faff, and I think it, my favourite part of the book and a lot of people have told me that they liked this bit, was the bit about de-pedestalling romance. And how often and it's very, like drilled into us, in society, is that we are not complete until we are in a relationship and we do get everything from one person, and I've never understood that, even before I started dating. I was like, how, one person, I don't understand. So, erm, for me, de-pedestalling romance like the one relationship that will give you everything was brilliant, because then I was like right, when you break it down, like I get warmth, friendship, humour from my friends over here, I get, like serious chats, and deep shit from these people over here, I shag that friend sometimes. When you break it down, getting what you will get from one person for about five. So it's fine.
Hannah Witton
Even like, as someone who is now married, which still feels weird, I wholeheartedly like believe that really taking that idea that one person can't be your everything, you need to really like believe that to your core. And that to me is like, made relationships better. Because then you're not putting all this pressure for one person to like complete you or, or be interested, like have the same hobbies and interests as you as well like nah, that's not gonna happen.
Jamie Windust
It leads to disappointment, at leads to this idea that if there's anything slightly wrong with the person that you're with, that your whole kind of, it crumbles, you know, everything crumbles. You're like, fuck, I love this person, but they don't like EastEnders and you're like, well, that's fine, they can not like that, because Becky over here does like it
Hannah Witton
Or you can enjoy it by yourself.
Jamie Windust
Yeah. And I think, I love that you have that. I think is really important because a lot of people interpret this de-pedestalling romance thing is like, basically saying I'm going to be single forever. And it's like, well, no, you can still have romance and your you're an example of this where you can have it but still be in the mindset that is not the be all and end all.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think it also helps you like accept people for who they are, rather than trying to like force someone to be who you want them to be. Which is always going to be better. We have some questions from people on Instagram, who want to ask you some things. So this person has asked as an AFAB NB. So for those listening, AFAB is assigned female at birth and NB is short for non binary. I am wondering how you think being AMAB, assigned male at birth/AFAB gives us different experiences?
Jamie Windust
That's a really great question. I think definitely in the media, and if you look at representation of non binary bodies, AFAB non binary bodies are severely lacking in representation. I think there's still a lot of misogyny that is directed towards non binary people who are AFAB because of this misconception that they are not non binary, you know, that they're being
Hannah Witton
Well, there's more like, there's more social acceptance around women wearing traditionally men's clothes. And so a lot of non binary people who are AFAB are mistaken for that.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, definitely.
Hannah Witton
I think
Jamie Windust
And I think there's a, there's, there's definitely an image of non binary identities being like, white, able bodied, like androgynous,
Jamie Windust
Which is not obviously, you know, as I say, there's no one way to look non binary, there's no one way to be it. So you can, it's a it's a state of inner you know, innerness, that's a great word. So, definitely, and I think we need more representation of AFAB non binary people. I recently did a series, a photos series for Gay Times, called trans love and it was great because I had so many amazing trans couples in there, just like being in love and being all like cute and adorable and we had AFAB non binary people, we had trans man, you know, it was brilliant. And I was just like, that's the reality. I think often this is like reality is, we come in all shapes and sizes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. How do you feel like your experiences being AMAB might be different?
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Jamie Windust
I think there's more. I'm not gonna say there's more prejudice because I I, that is not quantifiable. There's definitely a, I think for AMAB people, there's definitely more level of kind of, people perceive it as more dangerous, I think, sometimes.
Hannah Witton
There's kind of like an overlap with like the media's really awful treatment of trans women, I guess.
Jamie Windust
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
With AMAB non binary people.
Jamie Windust
Absolutely. It's kind of seen as, that's a man in a dress and there's that discussion. But then also, you know, on the flip side, culturally, a lot of our great pop heroes, our cultural icons, often have identified as like, fem presenting cis men, and for a lot of people, I think they see AMAB non binary people, and they kind of kind of relate to it slightly in a way, because they're like, oh, this is like, like, for example with me, people are like, oh, this is like Boy George, or this is like, David Bowie, which is obviously not correct, because I'm not male but it is like, more
Hannah Witton
People have like a cultural reference, I guess, even if it's an incorrect one.
Jamie Windust
Yeah. And it's just like, it's frustrating because, you know, on the flip side, there are cultural references for AFAB non binary people that you know, might present more butch or more fem. It's just annoying, I'm just like I can't be bothered, it's just a right faff innit.
Hannah Witton
It's a right faff.
Jamie Windust
A right faff.
Hannah Witton
It really is. Somebody else asked, how to feel validated when you're not visibly non binary, which kind of comes to what we were saying, like, how does it even look, and you keep getting mistaken for a cis person?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, definitely. And that is, again, a massive example of a lack of representation. I think, for me, that is one of the most beautiful and brilliant expressions of being non binary is because you feel comfortable in yourself. And you have got to a point where, you know, you're, you've realised, okay, I'm non binary. And we feel like you're the expression that you have, sits right with you. And there's nothing wrong with that, I think it can be very easy to think, Oh, I have to look a certain way, and I have to, you know, do all these crazy things with the way that I look. And it's like, no, you know, I, I decided to do that. But that was how I found who I was. Some people that is not, it doesn't work, it's not their thing. And that's fine. I think in terms of the validation and being read as cis, it's difficult, and I think it is almost harder for people who are non binary, but present in a more traditionally masculine or feminine man now, that makes them appears cis, is that it makes coming out a lot more stressful, it can be a lot more surprising for people. So I think, know that your valid, and I know people hate that phrase, because we know we know we are.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you you get on your soapbox in the book about that, which I loved.
Jamie Windust
Yeah. It's very, I find it very patronising when people who aren't trans say it, and I'm like right, well yeah, I know.
Hannah Witton
I've definitely said that before. I've Yeah. And I was just like reading that being like, okay, yeah, thank you, Jamie.
Jamie Windust
I mean, that's kind of my feeling, a lot of people would disagree, but I think for a fair few trans people, they would, you know, validation is important. And I think in this case, you know, this person is seeking validation. And you can only really find that within yourself and within your chosen family, and as long as you've got your people you know, don't change don't try and change yourself to fit in with what you think will work because you're, you're fine as you are babe.
Hannah Witton
Someone said, you're amazing. There is a question attached to it. But they said you're amazing. But some people are still shit nowadays. How do you deal with nasties?
Jamie Windust
Oh, no, there's lots of different categories of nasties. You have to separate them like, like you would Skittles, there's lots of different variations of a nasty. You know, some I don't pay any mind to it.
Hannah Witton
Which Skittle is the one that you don't pay any mind to, just so we're clear on that.
Jamie Windust
Green
Hannah Witton
Ah interesting. I'll have your green ones then.
Jamie Windust
I think, you know, I categorise them because it's like, and it's not always I will describe now it's not as easy as it sounds and we all still struggle with it, I definitely do. But if the person that is criticising you has no idea who you are, personally, they're just shouting you online because they've seen you in something that's happened to crop up on their social media. And they think that you care about their opinion, those types of people, for me, although yes, sometimes their words are hurtful, don't actually sink inside me, because I don't know them. Their opinion isn't important to me. I think what I try and do is I rationalise those comments. So if someone, for example, if someone important to me, says something to me that is critical, or is trying to improve me, I will take that on board and I will listen. But if someone is just yabbering on because they don't like the fact that I'm wearing like, make up, then I don't care because, you know, I'm not going to stop doing that.
Hannah Witton
And I guess that's where, like a really strong support network around you can help with the, with the nasties.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, definitely, it's definitely vitally important that you try and find a network. And that can be both physical or digital. You know, right now, a lot of ours are digital. When it comes to dealing with nasties in person, in the real world, because that can be quite nasty and quite stressful. And, you know, this is why I always try and say that social media is actually a tool for good, also, as a tool for shit. But it can be used for good because often, if you're out and about and you face public prejudice, often we, you know, we have a whole community in the palm of our hands. And we can talk about what's happening, talk about what we've faced, and we've, and we're facing online. And true solace in that because these are our people, you know, yeah, so that's important.
Hannah Witton
Definitely. And this one's a really interesting question. How can healthcare professionals be supportive when discussing gender and this is coming from someone who is a medical student?
Jamie Windust
Very interesting. I was actually having a conversation about this this week. If erm, and one thing that cropped up was, in terms of questions, the one really important thing is, if you're asking someone their gender identity, or their sex, initially asking yourself as the person asking that question, A) why, why am I asking this. And B) is it necessary for the situation that we're in?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Like, is this information necessary for the care that I'm giving?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, absolutely. And then often with medical professionals, a lot of that is unfortunately out of their control, because they are given, you know, they have to fill in forms, they have to fill out specific forms that are handed to them by their superiors. However, you know, I've wrote about it as well, in the in the book about that drip feeding notion of, you know, if you question something, if you're a medical, you know, the person who's asked this question, if you're thinking, actually, why do we ask people's gender when they come in and have like, the flu jab? You know, maybe if you feel comfortable, bring that up with your superior, or, you know, just kind of challenge it, but in a, like in a nice way. And then maybe, you know, things could change, people, they could be like, I'm going to ask, maybe we should change that. So yeah, just think about just think about, do I need this information? If not, let's not bother asking.
Hannah Witton
What, erm, I guess, what is the best language to use, if you need to ask someone about the sex that they were assigned at birth? Would you just use that language? Like what sex were you assigned at birth? If that is going to be necessary information for whatever the appointment or, yeah, the thing is about?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, I think that's absolutely fine. You know, for example, if you're going into a situation where it's like, genitals specific,
Hannah Witton
yeah,
Jamie Windust
Yeah or,I mean, I might be a bit of a rogue question, but just ask, like, hello. Actually, you know, I don't know maybe don't ask that. It's been random, like, hello, what genitals do you have? Yeah, that's an interesting one. I think, I think assigned male at birth, but then what sex were you assigned at birth. But then, I think, again, this is the problem with my life sometimes, when people ask me these quite big questions, and I'm like, fuck, I don't know, actually, because I don't want
Hannah Witton
But that's alright because like, there is no protocol for this. And I guess this is why somebody who is a medical student is asking this question, because I honestly highly doubt that it's on part of their university syllabus, like trans patients like what, like, how to ask appropriate questions, and like, what things might you need to consider?
Jamie Windust
Yeah, absolutely.
Hannah Witton
I'd hoped it would be in there.
Jamie Windust
Yeah. It would be useful
Hannah Witton
Right, this final question, honestly, I don't know how we're both gonna respond to it. Honestly. It's a tricky one is which is, isn't gender a social construct? And I can't tell if this person is being like, genuine or facetious, because I'm like, yes, it is. But also it's this like, really important thing. Like, is this something that you come across?
Jamie Windust
First of all, I love your use of facetious there, my favourite word,
Hannah Witton
Oh is it?
Jamie Windust
I mean, you know, the answer there is, yes, it is. But that doesn't mean that the ways in which the last social construct impacts your life, unfortunately, you have control of that. So though, you know, we know a lot of things are social constructs, it doesn't mean that they don't socially impact us
Hannah Witton
Money, social construct. The law, time. Oh my God, wow, we're really get to end this on just like an existential crisis.
Jamie Windust
I love this, it's been a right hoot.
Hannah Witton
This has been great. Jamie, where can people find you online and your book?
Jamie Windust
So the book is called In Their Shoes, it's available on Amazon ,or Waterstones, Boyles or there's a new amazing site called bookshop.org.
Hannah Witton
Yes, it's recently come to the UK. How exciting.
Jamie Windust
Yeah, so it's basically you can buy the book on there and all of the money gets split between lots of independent bookshops, which is wonderful. And then on social media. I am @Jamie_windust on all platforms.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Well, thank you so much. This has been an honour to chat with you.
Jamie Windust
Thank you,mI love you.
Hannah Witton
Love you too. Thanks for listening. Bye.
Jamie Windust
Bye
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast