Is AI Going to Take Over our Love Lives? with Olga Koch | Transcript
Read the episode shownotes here!
Olga Koch
I will just like think about them just because I am obsessive. So what I do is I will have, I will insist to have a few people on the go, if it's casual, just so I can dissipate my obsession. But that's just me!
Hannah Witton
And if you put them all into one person, then you would start to be fantasising about a wedding with someone who you don't even want to get married to. Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our body. Hello everybody. Welcome back to Doing It. This episode is a topic that I absolutely love talking about. I mean, don't I just love talking about all of these topics, really, but this one, especially. And my guest this week is Olga Koch, who is a comedian, and next week, she starts her tour of her show, If Then, which we talk a lot about in this episode. Olga is from Russia and has a computer programming background. And If Then is all about love and technology. So we talk a lot about dating in this episode and how technology impacts our love lives. Just like my two worlds intersecting, which is talking about sex, talking about relationships, and then also talking about tech and social media and the future, whooo! We talk about what role does AI potentially have to play in dating, and we also talk about how when Olga moved to the UK, how that move made her question and challenge some of her past conservative beliefs. I really hope that you enjoy this episode, Olga is brilliant. She's so funny and so interesting hearing her take on how technology plays a part in our personal lives. I hope that you enjoy. And thank you so much for listening. Hey Olga, thanks so much for joining me.
Olga Koch
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very, very excited.
Hannah Witton
Yay. So you are about to go on tour
Olga Koch
Yes.
Hannah Witton
With your show, If Then.
Olga Koch
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Which you did at the Fringe. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
Olga Koch
Correct. Thank you so much for - I'm going to take this off because it's gonna be quite noisy.
Hannah Witton
Jacket is coming off already.
Olga Koch
Yeah. So I wrote a show about love and computers. At university I studied computer science. At university I also had my first ever relationship. And basically, it's a story of how I tried to apply the rigid logic of computers on to the most irrational of all human emotions.
Hannah Witton
Did it work?
Olga Koch
Absolutely not. If anything, it made things much worse.
Hannah Witton
Please explain.
Olga Koch
Yeah, cuz I think I think I saw everything is like, so clean and logical. And then when these like conflicts and cognitive dissonance started coming into the relationship, it just didn't make any sense to me and it like hurt my brain.
Hannah Witton
Do you think people are doing relationships wrong? And actually, like, relationships should be more like computers, or you just have to accept that like,
Olga Koch
Oh, you gotta, you gotta accept that those are different. You got to accept a little different and they're beautiful, they're both beautiful, in their own separate ways. But I think the the centre, the central conflict of it all was that like, the cognitive dissonance of the contradiction of being that perfect woman. Sorry to get deep so early
Hannah Witton
No, I love it
Olga Koch
But the idea that like, you are expected to be like Madonna/whore, a guy's girl, do you know what I mean?
Hannah Witton
Oh, yes
Olga Koch
And just this constant idea of like, please have sex with me. But if you do, you're a slut. It's like, What? What?
Hannah Witton
The 'Cool Girl'?
Olga Koch
Yeah. Oh, God, just the whole conflict.
Hannah Witton
It's so tricky. And, like, do you, did you ever experience a bit of that with studying computer science and kind of that ego trip you get from like, oh, you're like, different to like other women?
Olga Koch
Oh, my God, big time. Like, especially when you're a teenager, just like if someone tells you you're special, you're so tempted to just believe it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Olga Koch
It's like no, no, it's not institutionalised, like -
Hannah Witton
And also that fact that not being like other girls isn't, you know, like, it's ingrained in us that that's a form of a compliment.
Olga Koch
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because being - because being a girl is actually an insult.
Olga Koch
Yeah, it's horrible. And but the thing is, if you look at the all the attributes of being a girl, they're all just reinforced by the patriarchy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
So the whole thing is just such a, just a backwards construct, and it makes me really, really angry. But I feel like a lot of people feel that way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. How was it as studying computer science, as a woman?
Olga Koch
So, full disclosure, I don't think I did it for noble reasons. I don't think I did it like to prove a point or anything. Basically, I went to any university where it was majority girls. And the only department that was majority boys, 70% guys, was the math department which computer science was a part of. So like, I did like math, and I was I was thinking of majoring in math. And then I was like, oh, this is cool. It's gonna be mostly dudes, so I'm going to get super laid. And I showed up, and nobody would speak to me. And the peak of alienation was when a guy who was in the same lecture hall as me, like I could see him, he physically couldn't talk to me and he had to, like, deep like, IM chat me, like on Gchat, because he couldn't face talking to me, because I was a woman and I was like, this is horrible. This is the opposite of what I expected,
Hannah Witton
Does that say something about the type of people that would do computer science.
Olga Koch
Oh, that's a very good question. I like I don't want to generalise. I know about my -
Hannah Witton
No generalisation, but -
Olga Koch
I know about my own, like personal experience. And there's like this comic that I keep coming back to. And it was, it's a picture of a boy getting a problem wrong in class, everybody pointing at him, saying you're stupid. And then a picture of a girl getting a problem wrong in class, everybody pointing at her and saying women are stupid. And like, that is encapsulates your experience. Because when you're the only girl in the room, you are, like, every mistake you make is for all women.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that hit me, yeah. Yeah. Do you think, or like why, actually are, and especially nowadays in the 21st century, with all this tech that we have, like emotions, love, dating, and all of that, like and technology like, why, why are they so intertwined? And like how, like, how, is it a good thing?
Olga Koch
I mean, I don't know whether I, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm literally talking out of my ass right now. Is it that like, technology is intertwined with everything, including like banking, and transport, and health, and groceries and -
Hannah Witton
And so now it's in our relationships
Olga Koch
Yeah,
Hannah Witton
And our emotions
Olga Koch
It makes sense too. But I do think about, like, all the challenges or like the deal breakers that you have in relationships now, that weren't a thing. 20 years ago. Like, for example, 30 years ago, like you never text me back, like would have never been a thing.
Hannah Witton
My grandparents, like met and then I think they only, like, we're hanging out in the same country for a couple of weeks before my gran then went off to America to like, be an au pair and, or whatever and, or be a nanny, I guess that's probably what it's called. And then, for six months, they just wrote letters
Olga Koch
Oh my God. I cannot like, no, no.
Hannah Witton
And those letters are going like across the Atlantic, and back. So they probably got a letter once every couple weeks. That's it! And they're like, you know, then she came home, and then they carried on dating, and then got married. And it's like, seventy odd years later, and they're like, going strong. And I'm like, what? Not Oh, no. Fifty, maybe fifty. But, long time, long time. But you're so right. Like the, I think, for me, at least, my like, our concept of time, I think has changed so much with technology. I read this thing and I cannot for the life of me remember what the hell it was because it was years ago but about there being you know, like the past, present, future of like, how you distinguish time and then there is like the present now. But then there's this other time frame, which is the digital now. And so, now is like you and me talking right now, but the digital now is like a lot more instant or, I don't know how they explained it. But I was like, oh my God, yeah, we have like a whole different, like, idea of how we understand time and then relationships, communication, online media -
Olga Koch
Leaving someone on read. What, your grandmother wouldn't even know what that means.
Hannah Witton
She's, yeah, and she doesn't care!
Olga Koch
We're like breaking up with someone because they're tweet too much. Like that wasn't an issue fifty years ago,
Hannah Witton
Do you know people who have done that?
Olga Koch
Oh, big time. When you're just like, Oh, yeah, no, I'm so I'm so in love with them. And then you look at their Twitter and like, Oh, they tweet every 45 seconds. Absolutely not.
Hannah Witton
I mean, it does say something about someone, I guess.
Olga Koch
Yeah, I wonder if they would just manifest that in something in something different.
Hannah Witton
Would you ever break up with someone because of their tweets?
Olga Koch
Yeah, if they're like, super right wing.
Hannah Witton
Imagine like dating someone, then you check their social profiles and you're like, hang on a second
Olga Koch
We just never addressed it.
Hannah Witton
I have no idea what, like my partner's not on social media.
Olga Koch
Oh my God, that's the dream
Hannah Witton
Sometimes, like the idea of what he would post really fascinates me. I'm like, what would he be like online?
Olga Koch
You should do like a fan account?
Hannah Witton
I think I think some people in my audience would actually love that because he he's almost become a bit of a character. Like because he's just not online. Like, no, you can't - oh my god, I'm gonna create -
Olga Koch
And he justs responseds to every one of your tweets being like, you're doing great babe!
Hannah Witton
Why can't he do that in real life. I would love that. Erm, speaking of conservatism, you moved to England, when you were 13?
Olga Koch
Yeah, so I moved from Russia. And when I was 13, oh my God, like just textbook everything bad. Like I was homophobic, I was like super pro, like gender norms. Like some really like residual racism, just from Russia, just all of these things that are like just culturally, I wouldn't say like, aggressively foaming at the mouth, but they were just a matter of fact. And now I look back at it absolutely horrified. And I see it in my parents. And my parents were, are kind of progressive for Russians, but progressive for Russians is just like, very bare tolerance. So it was like it was having to relearn everything when I was 13/14. Just like, none of this is okay.
Hannah Witton
How, how did you like come to the conclusion that like, maybe your views weren' okay, rather than doubling down on them? Because obviously, like some people when confronted with an alternative view, they might still be like, no, that's wrong. I'm right. Yeah. Like, actually, like, what was that process like for you?
Olga Koch
Yeah. So I think like, the pretentious person in me is just like, I just am just so more morally virtuous that I knew. But no, I think I was just at a very impressionable age. I think it was an impressionable age. I think everyone in my immediate vicinity in England wasn't those things, so it was very difficult to back those views up. And especially when you are questioned on those views, it's very difficult to provide like a logical reason why you think that
Hannah Witton
Because you don't, it's just just been raised that way.
Olga Koch
It's just emotional. It's just cultural. It's just like, you don't you can never back any of those views up, really. Like what scientifically? Politically? No.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Did you then have conversations with your parents about like, your change in views and things?
Olga Koch
I still am.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
I'm still having those. I got my dad a T shirt with the word feminist on it for Christmas one day, and he had a meltdown.
Hannah Witton
That's kind of adorable.
Olga Koch
Baby steps for him.
Hannah Witton
Oh, man. I really, I really love talking about technology and, and relationships. So I really want to get tickets to see your show. I'm like, oh, I want to like just nerd out about it all. But like, generally, like dating apps. Love? Hate? What is your -
Olga Koch
Oh, love it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah?
Olga Koch
Love it. Love it. I think well, first of all, I mean, I it would be really rich for me to say that I don't like them because like, like, I've had three major relationships from dating apps so it would just be like they do work.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
I also think that, just with time, we've except, like, again, when people were like on match.com, early days, people were like, you're a freak, you can't meet people in real life. And then everybody got on board with time. Yeah, I think I think, I hope, to a degree it's already happened with like Twitter and stuff. But like, the same thing is gonna happen with friendship. Like, if there was a friendship app,
Hannah Witton
Well like Bumble have like a friendship version.
Olga Koch
Yeah, Bumble BFF.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
And I think at first people were just like, meet people in real life, what are - you don't have friends, but I think with time, with time, we're gonna get there.
Hannah Witton
I think a lot of people who Bumble BFF is really good for people who are like moving to a new city.
Olga Koch
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Or like moving to a new country, or move just moving anywhere. And like, you're like, I need to make friends. Making friends as an adult is hard.
Olga Koch
It is a horrific it.
Hannah Witton
I just, I just remember like, as a kid, you just go up to people and just be like, will you be my friend? And then you just played together. Like, I guess we're best friends now.
Olga Koch
Yeah, and it's weird when you move to a new place. And I remember when I moved here after, because I went to university in America, when I moved here, back here and I didn't know anyone. Like the only socially acceptable way to meet people was through dating apps. I was like, I'm dating to meet people. That doesn't make sense.
Hannah Witton
I've done it when travelling, like I've -
Olga Koch
Yeah
Hannah Witton
I've used like dating apps just to be like, Hey, I'm like, in this city for a few days, like, give me recommendations like stuff to do. And I did that a lot when I was single. And I'm like, that would be still useful now. But like, how do I be like, by the way, I'm like in a monogamous relationship, looking for stuff to do. I like making friends like -
Olga Koch
Yeah, exactly. But it doesn't make sense to be like, oh, I'm sorry, I need to like, maybe give you a handjob at the end of this tour for it to make sense, which is a bizarre thing. Like, yeah, it's okay for me to go on a trip and like, under romantic guise, ask someone to show me around, but not in any other way. That doesn't make sense.
Hannah Witton
No. A friend of mine, she, she met her like long term partner on a dating app. And she said that she kind of had that same like reservations about it. It's like, oh, it's like a last resort of like, where people who can't meet people in real life go. But then she was like thinking about what she's like, as a person. She was like, I'm someone who stays inside most of the time. And I'm someone who spends a lot of time on the internet. And that, for her, is like how, where am I going to meet like minded people who are similar to me? Oh, on the internet. And so I think that penny dropped for her she like she she did the whole like really gamifying it, and I mean, she met someone so -
Olga Koch
What was her game?
Hannah Witton
Just she had like, lots of rules, and lots of little things that she would like. So she used OkCupid, I think
Olga Koch
I hope she's like writing a romcom script about this, because I love the idea of dating with rules, that's so cool.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, I love dating with rules. But yeah, she would have like, in her profile, she would have like, some almost like easter eggs in the profile of like, if in the person's first message mentions any of those, then they get like, bonus points, because they're like, really niche things that are like, really important, not necessarily important to her, but like niche interests that are really cool. And so, for her, it like it shows that they actually read her profile, and shows what kind of person they are. And then she would have like a rule about X amount of messages before deciding whether to ask to meet up in person. Like she wouldn't let the messages like, roll on for weeks and weeks before meeting up with someone.
Olga Koch
Oh my God, and now she's in a relationship?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
Oh my God. Good for her.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Olga Koch
I mean, also, like one of the relationships that I mentioned, I remember I had seven dates in seven days. And I was like, one of these guys is going to be my boyfriend. And i dated for almost two years,
Hannah Witton
You're like playing the numbers game.
Olga Koch
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I think that's what one of the things that she talks about is like, just playing a numbers game and like someone's gonna stick
Olga Koch
Oh, it's so true. It's so true. Because people are always like, Oh, God, how do you hook up so much? I was like, I have my success rate is 1%. I'm always out.
Hannah Witton
But maybe that's what, that's what you know, these guys that like, like, randomly like, approach you and stuff. Maybe they they're also playing the numbers game
Olga Koch
Oh my God, I'm a pickup artists.
Hannah Witton
You're a pickup artist! What are your moves?
Olga Koch
Wait, have you ever been approached by the pickup artist in Oxford, Oxford Circus?
Hannah Witton
No
Olga Koch
Oh, there's like a school there. And then so they come up to you. And it's always the same line and one of my friends works there so they've approached her with the same line so many times where she like, -
Hannah Witton
What's the line?
Olga Koch
I for the life of me, don't remember, but I know that she like, at this point, she's just like, finishing it. She's like, I know exactly what you're gonna say.
Hannah Witton
Yhey make them all go out and like practice this one line. What do you think of pickup artistry? Now that we're on the topic.
Olga Koch
Thoroughly negative.
Hannah Witton
It really really terrifies me. I totally understand, or at least I think I can understand why some men get into it because they have, you know, they like want to, they want to feel connected, and they they're isolated, and they you know, they want to like, feel good at something. But I don't think it's a way of actually making real connections for people because like you said that it's, you know, dozens of people all saying the same line.
Olga Koch
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So it's not personalised at all
Olga Koch
It's fully dehumanising of the other person. And like when when, again, if we're talking about mostly cis, mostly straight dudes, were like they are in if they're, like, single, and whatever, they there's already such a distance between them and understanding women, and would like to do a thing that dehumanises women on top of that, just feels like a recipe for disaster.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I also believe it dehumanises them as well, because they're not, you know, expressing their own opinions or thoughts or feelings. It's very much like, here's the script.
Olga Koch
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And it's all psychology based. So you know, it works, you know, a lot of the time, which is also kind of terrifying.
Olga Koch
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I definitely went on a date with someone who I met online. And I remember feeling so like, weird after the date, I was like, why do we feel awful? And I went back through, like, all of the things that he said, and like, I was like, oh, he was like, using negging on me. He was like, doing all of these things. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's why I feel so shit right now.
Olga Koch
Oh, God
Hannah Witton
It was so weird.
Olga Koch
It can't be fun for him either.
Hannah Witton
I have no idea if he had a good time. I'm just like, that was just strange. That was just a really awful date. Have you seen, there was like a while ago, those Tinder adverts like all over the buses and the tube and stuff. I don't know what your thoughts on this are, but I find it really interesting that it's marketing itself as like, this is the app for single people. It's like, oh, single and blah, blah. Whereas like other dating services is like, this is where you're gonna meet your partner.
Olga Koch
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
I just find that so interesting. The difference than their like, strategies of how they're positioning themselves.
Olga Koch
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Like, Tinder doesn't want you to settle down. Like Tinder wants you to remain single, and dating, and hooking up, forever. So you keep using the app
Olga Koch
Yes, yes, definitely. Agree with that. Also, I just think that basically my understanding, again, I'm in and out of dating apps. But my understanding is that like Bumble took, like all the cool people went to Bumble
Hannah Witton
All the feminists went to Bumble
Olga Koch
Yeah, exactly. And then everyone left Bumble and moved to Hinge and so I suppose that because Hinge hinges, I was on Hinge for like a week, it's too much work.
Hannah Witton
I have never used Hinge because it came out after I like got got a boyfriend. But friends of mine who said it's Tinder for Tories.
Olga Koch
I mean, yes
Hannah Witton
I'm like what? Why's it too much work?
Olga Koch
Well because you have to, you have to an answer prompts, and then you have to like, and then on people's profiles, you have to talk to the prompt. So you have to be like, oh, it's so interesting that you said X. It's a nightmare.
Hannah Witton
So I'm guessing you're not on OkCupid because that is a lot of work.
Olga Koch
I got banned from OkCupid at university
Hannah Witton
Please tell me the story.
Olga Koch
Oh, God. I love how we just just basically destroyed a bunch of pickup artists for using the same line on people. Well, when I was on OkCupid
Hannah Witton
Oh, you were spamming people!
Olga Koch
I got banned for spam because I kept, I just wrote a template to invite everyone to a gig that I was hosting and I just sent it to everyone.
Hannah Witton
So you weren't trying to date you're just like, please buy tickets to my show.
Olga Koch
I was like oh, let's get a drink after the show that I'm in.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. Did any of them like show up? Or did you
Olga Koch
I wouldn't know cuz the second I did it, I got, within a couple of hours I just got banned.
Hannah Witton
Oh man
Olga Koch
So I will never find love.
Hannah Witton
Well, maybe just not on OkCupid
Olga Koch
Just not OkCupid. But so yeah, so I think because people moved I guess - they carved out a niche for them just being like well people on Hinge are talking to each other with prompts, we're here fucking
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
I think that's what they said in the Tinder board room.
Hannah Witton
This is, yeah, this is exactly what was said like, totally. What do you think the future of like, the, like tech and dating/relationships/hookups. Like, do you have any like, I don't know, theories?
Olga Koch
I mean, loads. I have so many, I'm completely underinformed, but I'm very opinionated.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God, please give me all your opinions.
Olga Koch
So one of them, the route is like a herd type thing where like, there's an AI that's perfect for you. Right?
Hannah Witton
Oh God
Olga Koch
Which is terrifying.
Hannah Witton
Would you go for it? If like, there was an AI, that like also was built like a human as well. So -
Olga Koch
Like, why not?
Hannah Witton
And they had like, the perfect personality for you, and all of the looks that you love.
Olga Koch
Like, okay, so basically
Hannah Witton
I think we would get bored. I don't think our tastes stay the same.
Olga Koch
That's a very interesting point. That's a very, very interesting point. So every, everyone who isn't an AI or like, isn't an AI nerd. They're always like, AI is terrifying. But when you talk to AI people, they're like, why would you listen to any other song other than the song that is built specifically for you? It knows all of your data. It knows every key change you like, it knows every note you like, it knows all the sounds you like,
Hannah Witton
For variety, I guess?
Olga Koch
No, no, no, sure I'm on your side. Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side. But there's so much stuff that like would have a million, like 10 years ago, rung alarm alarm bells in your head where like, okay, I'm going to monitor all of your locations. And now you're you're going just doing it.
Hannah Witton
And your heart rate
Olga Koch
Right, exactly. But now you're just doing it, voluntarily. You're paying money for devices that will do that. So I think if anything, I mean, it's very depressing. Yeah, but if anything, I feel like once it's normalised I'm like, okay, well, there's a partner that's like, specifically for me -
Hannah Witton
I'll take it
Olga Koch
I mean, I'd be curious. I definitely be curious about it.
Hannah Witton
Would they be good in bed?
Olga Koch
I mean, they'd be good for you.
Hannah Witton
They'd be programmed. Yeah, true.
Olga Koch
This is just making me sad.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
So that's one. Another one is like digital surveillance means like, there's no privacy. And I just think that there's like, private. Like, is that just like trust with the partner.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Olga Koch
Just all that because before, I don't remember who it was, I think it was John Delaney, who was had jokes about how like in the 60s, all you had to do to not get caught with having an affair is not have like lipstick actively on your shirt. But now there's like, you're surveyed so much that how do you like how do you separate from a partner -
Hannah Witton
And with that, like whole digital now thing, it's like knowing what your partner is doing every second of every day and like where they should be.
Olga Koch
Yeah. Also, just like a span of relationship, like the information exchange that you have with your partner, something that you your grandparents had with each other, today would have happened within a week
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
Do you know what I mean? So like, now, how are you going to make this relationship last, when the information exchange you're have with them 50 years ago, would have taken 10 years, now it's taking a month.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then that's why you date someone for a month and you're like cool, bye.
Olga Koch
Yeah. So is that in relation to, so that one month, is it equivalent to two years, thirty years ago? I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God. And this is going back to like how we feel time differently.
Olga Koch
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, with the digital surveillance stuff. Like we already, we already see so so much of that in relationships of like, you know, you can get notifications if your partner likes an Instagram posts -
Olga Koch
Yeah
Hannah Witton
Like, and where they're tagged, and who they're tagged with and -
Olga Koch
And if you're on like Snapchat or find my friends you know where they physically are.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I've seen, like me and my partner don't I don't even know if I have like, find my phone or whatever switched on, I probably should, but I don't lose it, touch wood. I've never done that. But I've seen people do it and I'm like, oh, they're there, okay. And I'm like, is this okay? Are we allowed to do this? I didn't realise that this was normal now.
Olga Koch
Yeah, I, yeah, no, it's so creepy to me. But like a bunch of my friends and like their friend groups are like, oh, or they'll have it with their flatmates and be like, oh, I lost my keys. Oh, my flatmate's here. I'm gonna go pick them up.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, for safety, I guess that like, it makes a lot of sense. But and also like, for those friends who you know, or is late -
Olga Koch
Yeah
Hannah Witton
You could just like look at it and be like text them like, you haven't left your house yet. You should have left it 10 minutes ago to get here on time. That's how I would use it, just be making all of my friends on time. I would like text them 10 minutes before being like, you've not left your house yet. Get a move on, come on! Please leave now.
Olga Koch
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's how I would use it, I'd just be that annoying friend.
Olga Koch
So yeah, please, please, please add Hannah on Find My Friend.
Hannah Witton
I will make you guys on time to all of your stuff. And none of your friends will hate you. You say you're a good dater.
Olga Koch
Yeah, very good.
Hannah Witton
Well, there you go. Please give us some of your tips. Like what makes you a good dater? And then like, is that specific to you? Or are that some of these things that like other people could do to make themselves good dater?
Olga Koch
Oh, god, they're they're all gonna make me sound like a horrible person.
Hannah Witton
Like a PUA?
Olga Koch
Exactly. Like after spending a good 10 minutes shitting on PUA's, I'm just like, this is my technique.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my goodness.
Olga Koch
It's just £39.99.
Hannah Witton
Go on then, what do, what what is your technique?
Olga Koch
Okay, I would say there's three things that I would like to point out.
Hannah Witton
See you have rules.
Olga Koch
Yeah, I guess, I guess. I mean, I guess we, we all do. I don't know if I've ever formulated it now. But now I'm sitting here and I'm telling you. So first thing, if you are doing something casual with someone, that's not an excuse to treat them like shit.
Hannah Witton
Hmm.
Olga Koch
It makes me so upset.
Hannah Witton
I'm doing poetry clicks.
Olga Koch
There we go. Just just genuinely, just because like if, first of all, if I like you enough to have sex with you, I probably like you more than I like my like, annoying co worker. So the idea that I will do that with you, but then treat you really poorly, worse than annoying co worker, just doesn't make sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
Because a lot of the time we treat people like shit to reinforce that it's casual. But like if you have to reinforce that it's casual, you either a) haven't had that conversation where it's casual yet, have that conversation and then just treat each other nicely. Or b) you're scared to have the conversation. So have that conversation then treat each other nicely.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that. A friend a friend of mine, she runs these workshops about kind compassionate, casual sex called How to Fuck Like a Hufflepuff.
Olga Koch
Oh my God, that's wonderful. Yeah, well, it's you probably your friend will be more much more articulate on about that than me.
Hannah Witton
But no, I 100% agree. Like I make it makes no sense. Like why why would you be a dick to someone who you're like, sharing that with?
Olga Koch
Yeah, I just it like, everyone, everyone is on board. A lot of people are on board with casual sex. That doesn't mean you treat them like shit
Hannah Witton
What what do you mean by treating them like shit? Is it like about not communicating? Or like, actually like saying horrible things to them?
Olga Koch
I find myself doing it when I'm doing when I'm doing doing casual stuff where you're like, there's this kind of theatre of like, oh, well, now I have to wait four hours to respond to. Or just like casual in conversation dropping in that you're seeing other people. Don't, like don't. And sometimes I'll be like, when I'm on Hinge and I'm just like Jesus Christ. Why am I doing this? Like, the only reason I'm doing this is to reinforce that this is casual. This is all performance. I don't need to say this. They don't need to say how they were on a date the other day, like, do you know what I mean? Just all this. It just makes me really upset because obviously it's performative. It's unnecessary. It's an unkind and it kind of distance you from the other person.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What are your other two?
Olga Koch
So that's one thing, treat people nicely. Another thing is, I've noticed that I'm quite an obsessive person. So if I even have like one person that I'm dating in my life, and I'm, I'm not even that into them, and it is casual, I will just like think about them just because I am obsessive. So what I do, is I will have I will insist to have a few people on the go if it's casual, just so I can dissipate my obsession.
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah, yeah, I like that. It's like you know, yourself and so you do the thing to like help.
Olga Koch
Yeah, so I'll divide that obsession divided by three. Perfect, perfect amount of attention.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so you have like your limited pool of obsessive thoughts.
Olga Koch
Yeah, but that's just me! Oh God!
Hannah Witton
And if you put them all into one person, then you would start to be fantasising about a wedding with someone who you don't even want to get married to.
Olga Koch
Exactly, exactly.
Hannah Witton
That makes a tonne of sense. Because I mean, I don't, I have a feeling like the, a lot of my female friends do this. Listeners if any of you aren't female and you do this, like, please let us know. But even if it's someone who you know wouldn't be good for you romantically and you just like dating casually or sleeping with casually, you still picture a life together.
Olga Koch
Yeah
Hannah Witton
You're like, what does this look like?
Olga Koch
And like, I mean, the amount of times I've just, like, jumped into something just because that was the only person I was dating at the time, and three months in, I'm like, I don't even like you, it becomes a game where you're like, I'm gonna get them to commit. What do I do? And how do I how do I position myself to get them to commit? And once you've like, achieved that, you're like, did I even want this?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, the game. Like the game, loved the whole thing. I dated someone once who like, from the beginning was very upfront about the fact that like, he never wanted kids. But naturally in those fantasies, there were still children. And actually, that ended very amicably. But, yeah, it was it was like my subconscious still, like wasn't computing this like really direct thing that he told me.
Olga Koch
Yeah
Hannah Witton
But it was it, but even though logically, I was just like, oh, we can just date and it's fine, but nothing serious is gonna happen because I do want kids. And then yeah, it did eventually like fizzle and was like, fine, but in my, my subconscious, I was still like, babies! What are you doing?
Olga Koch
Yeah, we've all been there. We've all been there. So if you know that this is you, if you know this about yourself, just get people in, Just casually. Like even if you don't want to, like lead people on, even if you don't like them, maybe go on dates. Distract yourself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Olga Koch
Because if anything that will make you like, will make you realise whether you like the person that you like, really, or not.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I am a true believer in that obsessive thoughts about someone you're dating isn't necessarily bad, if they're having similar obsessive thoughts about you.
Olga Koch
But then it's cute, then it's love.
Hannah Witton
Because like, that's kind of like me and my partner, when we were getting together at the beginning I was, I remember saying to my friends, I was like, I'm obsessed with him. Like, I was like, What is going on? I'm like, fully obsessed with them. And I remember telling him I was like, I'm obsessed with you. And he was like, I'm obsessed with you too. Like, this is great. Okay, fine. We're both like equally obsessed and that's okay.
Olga Koch
Oh my God, that's so cute!
Hannah Witton
But, but yeah, it makes sense that like, if you're, if it is casual, like, if you have the potential for being obsessed, like just -
Olga Koch
Just know yourself
Hannah Witton
Filter - yeah, knowing, yeah that's the point, know yourself.
Olga Koch
And the third one, I would say this more just like an everyday application. Do fun things on dates. Just do fun things on dates. Go bowling, go do an escape room, go to a magic show.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, yeah
Olga Koch
Go ice skating. Like, I mean, the really, like obvious thing is if you're having a nice time, then you will associate the other person with a nice time, which is again, like cheating your brain, but still. And also, if the date is bad, you got to do a fun thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I went to a rollerdisco once on a date.
Olga Koch
There you go.
Hannah Witton
It was great.
Olga Koch
See, it's super fun.
Hannah Witton
Didn't fancy them at all. But had a really lovely time.
Olga Koch
Exactly. Do karaoke.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, I love it. And even when you're like, dating someone for a long time, still do all this fun thing.
Olga Koch
Yeah, just do do a fun thing.
Hannah Witton
I really, I feel like doing an escape room with someone like really early on, as a first date would be like, such a brilliant, that's a brilliant idea. Like, I think because it's so collaborative and like the teamwork and, and like also you see someone at peak stress.
Olga Koch
It's a microcosm of your life together
Hannah Witton
Exactly. We did an escape room. It was like my parents, my sister, my partner, and her partner. And I was so nervous going into it. I was like, this is going, everyone's gonna hate each other at the end of it. Like this is gonna go horribly, people are gonna scream but I was like, oh, but we all like did the team work so well. I was like, oh my god. Maybe, maybe we all do get along.
Olga Koch
Beautiful.
Hannah Witton
I was I was so nervous going into - I was like this is going to expose everything
Olga Koch
That is like the ultimate holiday movie, isn't it?
Hannah Witton
Oh my God.
Olga Koch
Christmas Escape Room on Netflix with Vanessa Hudgens
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, I'm still yet to see her Christmas movies, but I'm so royally tempted.
Olga Koch
Okay, so they're doing one where there's like three of her. And I have so many questions.
Hannah Witton
What wait, we thought it was just one when there was two of her.
Olga Koch
Yeah, but now they're the sequel is that there's a third one.
Hannah Witton
Oh my gosh.
Olga Koch
And I have so many questions. Is, is she getting paid three times the money? Does it get, does it pass the Bechdel test? I guess it does, but does it, does it if it's just the same person? Questions.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love that. I think you should treat them as different characters, I guess. But maybe they still talk about men. Who knows.
Olga Koch
Who's to say
Hannah Witton
I've not watched it, so I'm not sure. I really love your dating tips.
Olga Koch
Oh my god, I hope they were helpful, I hope they made sense
Hannah Witton
I have this really niche one, that people are like, what the fuck.
Olga Koch
Please.
Hannah Witton
But I genuinely stand by that, this, it works. And it's good. Especially if like, maybe you want to take something from, from casual to like, oh do we actually want to go on a date, like, like each other exclusively, or whatever it might be? Is doing, like a job interview process with them. So basically, the YouTube, well actually, you could do it with any kind of relationship, whatever, like if it's casual or or not casual or whatever. So, you think what is the job position that is available, and it could be like casual lover, or like monogamous, long term partner, that is the job description. And then you have like, the, the role and like the qualities and you know, you have like essential qualities and desirable. And then you like, interview each other. But it's like, I found that it's a really like funny way to have, like the important conversations, and have the important communication about expectations, about actually what you're like as a partner. And like what you need, and what you're, you know, like what your emotional capacity is right now, like, it's a really good way to have those conversations without directly asking about them.
Olga Koch
Yeah
Hannah Witton
Because it's all done in metaphor. And so it is really fun, but you still like get a really good understanding of where you're both at, what you're coming to the situation in and like, whether it is a good fit, whether you're looking for the same thing or not.
Olga Koch
That's really useful. I wonder if it's useful, just like outside of relationships as well, like with friends and stuff.
Hannah Witton
Maybe, yeah.
Olga Koch
Just because there's like different modes and needs. I was like literally, as you said it, I was like, I need to do this with my dad. Not in like a creepy way. But just like, I want you to text me back. I want you to remember my birthday. Those are my expectations.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, maybe maybe this would work in all relationships. I love, I love the kind of the question of, so tell me about your previous role and why you left?
Olga Koch
Oh, my God, that's so good. So good.
Hannah Witton
Cuz then you can be like, well, you know, I felt like I, we, you know, we just went our separate ways. I wasn't really like progressing at my last company. You can really, like, play around with it. I think it's kind of fun.
Olga Koch
Yeah, like an example of like your previous failure, an example of previous experiences.
Hannah Witton
What are your strengths and weaknesses.
Olga Koch
Oh my god, that's so good. That's brilliant.
Hannah Witton
Thank you.
Olga Koch
You need to write a book about it
Hannah Witton
You can use it. Everyone can use it.
Olga Koch
That's really, really, really smart.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me.
Olga Koch
Thank you so much for having me.
Hannah Witton
Do you want to do a little plug for your show?
Olga Koch
I would love to do a little plug for my show. Thank you so much. My show is called If Then. It is on tour throughout February and March, it kicks off at the Soho theatre February 12. Please, come
Hannah Witton
And it's about computers and love. I love it. The two big things that are going to ruin us all. Right, thank you so much.
Olga Koch
Thank you so much.
Hannah Witton
Bye! Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast