Sneaking Into Gay Clubs and Reclaiming the Word "Queer" with Riyadh Khalaf | Transcript
CW: mention of suicidal thoughts and behaviour
Find the episode shownotes here!
Riyadh Khalaf
Dad sort of gets quite emotional, and you can see he's physically in pain as he's trying to battle through this anecdote, and it turns out the night he found out, he woke up at 4am when we were asleep, and was walking around the house looking for pills to take his own life.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. This week's guest is Riyadh Khalaf, who is a good friend of mine. It was an absolute pleasure to sit down and chat with him, and also discover new things about him that I didn't already know. Always a cool thing when that happens with your friends. So Riyadh is a YouTube creator, TV presenter, podcast host, and author, so many things. He presented the incredible BBC documentary, Queer Britain, and hosted the BBC's Unexpected Fluids podcast, with Alex Fox. So I absolutely love talking with Riyadh, because when it comes to sex, he really doesn't shy away from gritty details. So we talk about lots of stuff in this episode. Last year, Riyadh published his first book, Yay, You're Gay, Now What? A Gay Boys Guide To Life, which is full of information, advice, and personal stories, on being gay, coming out, but also just living in the world as a gay person. We talk about what it was like for him, coming out as gay in Ireland, and how he sneaked into gay clubs as a teenager, and how a word that tormented him on the school playground, became the title of the documentary he hosted and he is now proud to claim it. So without further ado, here is the episode. I hope that you enjoy it.
Hello, Riyadh.
Riyadh Khalaf
How are you?
Hannah Witton
I'm good, how are you?
Riyadh Khalaf
Really dazed? I had like a really, really long, party filled weekend. And then I couldn't sleep last night. So I had a sleeping pill. So I feel like I'm floating, and it's, it's actually okay.
Hannah Witton
Okay, good. Well, maybe you're feeling like loosey goosey, so I'll get like all of your juice from you.
Riyadh Khalaf
You're going to get the goods.
Hannah Witton
Just like completely, like, uninhibited.
Riyadh Khalaf
Just start digging.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. oh my God, I will, I will.
Riyadh Khalaf
How are you?
Hannah Witton
I'm grand. I'm excited to chat to you because I feel like we've seen each other in passing, a lot. We've like been doing some of the same work, but we're like in professional mode, not that we're not in professional mode right now. But this is a podcast about sex, so.
Riyadh Khalaf
It's a bit more chill. We're lubed up and ready to go.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So I think I want to just to start with your book, obviously.
Riyadh Khalaf
My baby. It's there on the table.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Erm.
Riyadh Khalaf
I kind of forgot I wrote a book, is that weird?
Hannah Witton
I don't know. I guess you're so, you're so busy as well with like other projects and stuff.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah. I like gave birth to it. And you know what that feels like, your two books deep. And then you kind of go, done, next, what? Oh, and then someone reminds you, you know, oh, I found your book in some dusty bookshop in Auckland, New Zealand, and it helped me come out to my mum. And you're like what the fuck? Okay, wow, happy I did that. So it's, it's been a really, really amazing few months. And even like, you know, I travel a lot for work and anytime I'm in a country, I go to the big store -
Hannah Witton
Oh, and try and find your book
Riyadh Khalaf
And it's about 50% of the time, she's there smiling back at me and I always quietly sign and just slip slide it back in. Yeah, sometimes without permission.
Hannah Witton
So what is the book? Like, why did you want to write this and what is it?
Riyadh Khalaf
You know what it's like, you know, we both live in a digital world. And we inadvertently kind of became, I don't know, help, or big siblings to people around the world, you know? So like, I had all these thousands of comments from young queer people over the years and saying, how can I come out? How can I avoid avoid being honour killed?
Hannah Witton
Whoa.
Riyadh Khalaf
How can I have safe anal sex? Or why do I have these feelings and I want to get rid of them? And, and I was spending a lot of time writing back to all these people individually, and it got to the point where I actually didn't have the time, or the resources, or the mental capacity.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, 100%
Riyadh Khalaf
Because it can actually make you feel quite drained and down, if you've got a load of very sad messages all at once, and I thought, there's a reason why all these young people are so desperate for information. They're not getting it from school, they're not getting it from the friends, or the parents. There's a book here, that needs to be written. And it kind of coincided with me being asked to write one. And so the offer came in to my email from the publisher and I deleted the email.
Hannah Witton
What?
Riyadh Khalaf
I deleted it because I was like, I'm not ready. I'm not I'm not I haven't lived enough. I haven't had enough life experience. Not yet. Maybe in 10 years.
Hannah Witton
I felt that about my first as well.
Riyadh Khalaf
I was like super imposter syndrome, right?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
And then, the same email went to my agent. And thankfully, they made a second attempt and then emailed me and said, look, we're going to have a chat with them. So we had the chat in the office, and they pitched it and I just thought, if I'm going to write anything, this is what I'm going to write.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
I'm not gonna write an autobiography. I haven't done anything, you know, yet, that was worthy of that. And then so I started and like, I'm looking at it now, across the table from me,
Hannah Witton
Ta da! Yay, You're Gay, Now What?
Riyadh Khalaf
She's not a huge thing, but she's a very important thing. And you know, when you're writing something that's so life guidey, and so specifically designed for a group of people that are very delicate, and in need of.
Hannah Witton
Potentially vulnerable.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, they're, they're probably in a very, very transitional moment in their life. You can't just go, you'll be grand, just come out and kiss boys. Woohoo! It's got to be super, super well thought out. So what might take a novelist, you know, might take them a day to write a chapter, or half a chapter, it might take me a week, because I have to revise and really troll and pour over it, and make sure that there's not one moment where a flippant statement could be taken as an actioning thought, like, you need to do that. It's all quite -
Hannah Witton
It can't be prescriptive, I guess.
Riyadh Khalaf
No, it's kind of, you've got to give the person that agency and autonomy to do the shit themselves. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Is it specifically aimed at like young gay men?
Riyadh Khalaf
It started off as that. It was like, I'm a gay man, and identify as male, and then that's what I'm going for. And then as I went through the book, I realised that actually, I can't do that because you know, it everything's so fluid. And yeah, you know, you might have someone that's gay, but is is feeling trans, or non binary, and, you know, might be from a background that's different to me. So, I thought that the main centre of the book is aimed at young gay boys.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
Who identify as that. But there's actually something in it for, you know, lesbian young people or, you know, trans people, or non binary people, or even straight people who want to realise how to accept and and uplift that queer young person in their life.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz you have like a little ally section as well.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah. And there's also a section at the back, designed specifically for parents of that queer kid.
Hannah Witton
Brilliant.
Riyadh Khalaf
Written by my parents.
Hannah Witton
Awww, I love your parents.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, as I was getting to that point, writing it, and I thought, I mean, I can I can kind of guess what it feels like to be a parent and have your kid come out to you. But they know best. So I kind of, I took the biggest centre point question questions that, I'm picking up the book here, because I'm trying to remember what the questions were.
Hannah Witton
What, questions that you'd like received from people online?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah. So questions that parents had asked me.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay, right, yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
And I put those questions, from parents, to my parents, and got them to answer them. So questions, here we go. Surely this is just the phase, should I help my child see the light? I'm finding this news hard to handle, how can I get support myself without hurting my child's feelings? Is my child's life going to be different or difficult now that they're out of the closet? Stuff like that. I think what a lot of people fail to realise is that it's actually okay for that parent to feel shame, initially, as long as they try to overcome it, and they don't wallow in the shame and let it manifest into hate.
Hannah Witton
Right, sure.
Riyadh Khalaf
So there has to be a light at the end of the tunnel. But you know, it's inhuman to expect this person to just go, okay, my child is completely different to what I thought they were. And all the hopes and dreams I had for them that were unfounded, you know, that they'd have loads of kids, and have a heteronormative life, and a wife, or whatever. Like that, it is a shock. And that's okay. Ao that's what I learned from my coming out process, is that I expected to kind of get your done, I'm out, get over it.
Hannah Witton
What was that like with your parents then? It sounds like a bit of a process.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, so my mother was in shock, but more so upset that I had kept in the secret for so long.
Hannah Witton
How old were you when you told them?
Riyadh Khalaf
16 or 17 when I told my mom, and then 17 or 18 when I told my dad. I should know the exact age, but it was nine months later that.
Hannah Witton
And your mum managed to like keep that a secret from your dad?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Wow, go her!
Riyadh Khalaf
I know, in like the family home together. So that was nine months.
Hannah Witton
Because that's her spouse and like, there's that whole thing of like, you keep things secret from everyone, except your spouse. Like, wow!
Riyadh Khalaf
My mother has a huge gob. So, you know, but she was as afraid as I was
Hannah Witton
Of him knowing?
Riyadh Khalaf
About his reaction.
Hannah Witton
Okay
Riyadh Khalaf
So we didn't know, he's he was Muslim, and mom was Catholic, and I was brought up on her side Catholic. And so there was a kind of a religious element, a cultural element, it kind of, uh, you know, is, he has had gay friends but what is it going to be like when he finds out his own flesh and blood is. And I had these feelings, it's in the book of, I thought that I might be killed in the night by him or someone else, to get rid of the shame. Or I might be kicked out, or I might be physically attacked or, or he might find it amazing, and support me. That that's literally -
Hannah Witton
The spectrum!
Riyadh Khalaf
The vastness of what the fuck is gonna go on here. And that unknown is terrifying. And you try and pick up cues from watching television with your parents, and seeing how do they take -
Hannah Witton
When there's a gay character in a TV show? And how are they reacting?
Riyadh Khalaf
We were watching the Graham Norton show. Oh, he's laughing at Graham and he's slapping his leg and going, oh my god, he's so funny. Or actively saying, shall we watch Chatty Man, Alan Carr just came on. And it's like, okay, you really admire these gay men, so will you admire me?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
And then, so I came out and it was he was hit, like, smack bang in the face. He just was in shock. Pure pure shock. I've never seen someone like that before.
Hannah Witton
Just had no idea
Riyadh Khalaf
He went silence. And he didn't speak to me for a week. He couldn't even look at me. That, but the one thing he did say was, it'll be okay. It'll be okay. We'll fix this. Almost in a kind of trance like state, like glazed over.
Riyadh Khalaf
Change me back into straight. Well, not back to, I was never straight! The moment the sperm hit the egg, it was like glorious, gay, the egg was glittering and pink. And so he, and my, another family member. It's sort of had chats, and that family member who we don't speak to anymore, sort of suggested to my father that I be sent to Saudi Arabia, where there are in inverted commas, pretty women who will help him see the light.
Hannah Witton
We'll fix this, as in?
Hannah Witton
Oh God, that doesn't sound fun.
Riyadh Khalaf
Because in that awful person's eyes, not my father, the other person, Irish women weren't pretty enough and that's why I became gay.
Hannah Witton
Oh, interesting conclusion to have drawn.
Riyadh Khalaf
Just the logic is just beyond me. And so anyway, thankfully, in time, after contemplating taking his own life -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
You might want to put a trigger warning at the top.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you made a video about that as well, didn't you, with your dad?
Riyadh Khalaf
So yeah, just to rewind it a moment. I was moving to London, and leaving, you know, everything I knew in Ireland. So the night before I moved to London, mum, dad and I went to a spa hotel in in Ireland, and decided to treat ourselves and do a kind of a goodbye in style. And the one video I had always been asked about making for my followers was what's your coming out story? Not a coming out video, but a coming out story video.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Riyadh Khalaf
Cuz I had already come out, it's too late for that. And so we sat down in this hotel room and filmed a video, and my mom and I had no idea that dad was going to drop this bombshell on us.
Hannah Witton
Because, wait, you didn't know?
Riyadh Khalaf
No. That's why the video kind of blew up, because it was so raw and real. And we were just, I just planned to do quite a formulaic, not a cold video, but just to kind of, we're gonna go through the paces here and talk about it.
Hannah Witton
Like, this is what happened.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yes, ABCD goodbye. So please subscribe. But in the middle of it all, dad's sort of gets quite emotional, and you can see he's physically in pain as he's trying to battle through this anecdote. And it turns out, the night he found out, he woke up at 4am, when we were asleep, and was walking around the house, looking for pills to take his own life.
Hannah Witton
He must have been carrying that shame himself as well, all those years until he told you both.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah. Yeah, actually, you're right.
Hannah Witton
Because like, you know, because he would have like, he didn't.
Riyadh Khalaf
He knew, but he knew that we didn't know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but he didn't do that. And then, you know, like you said, it took him time, but he came to terms with it. And you know, you filmed that video quite recently, and you have an amazing relationship with your parents.
Riyadh Khalaf
Well, it was filmed almost four years ago now.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God, my timeline is off!
Riyadh Khalaf
No, but in the grand scheme of life, you know, it's not that long. So he, yeah, he was holding that information in for eight years.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
Eight years. And you can see it in his face and his body language in the video. It's like a painful weight being lifted. And and he, there is shame, not for having a gay son, but shame for how he reacted for having a gay son.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly.
Riyadh Khalaf
And he's trying to battle with that in the video, but now he's, he's fine. He's He's like so. And I think, I feel like I have, in some way, tried to help him over the years, get through that shame by offering him open doors to come in and become an activist. To come in and be a voice of change, a voice of hope for parents and kids alike, by saying, will you please write this chapter in my book? Would you like to come to pride? Here ,come to the launch of this new TV show I've done that by being a big old gay. Hey, would you like to be a public campaigner for same sex marriage in Ireland? And all of these open doors he has run into and and just decided to take both hands. So like, just an incredible human being. But to add to all of that, you know, with the religious side that we we all have. Both, both my parents decided, soon after I came out, to let go of all religious belief. So we're humanists now. We just believe in science, and being a good person, and love, and all of that. So all of our sort of weddings and funerals are humanist ceremonies now
Hannah Witton
Nice.
Riyadh Khalaf
They are really nice, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Dan and I, with like registering to get married and stuff, because we're having a secular wedding. There's like, you can't have any mention of God in it at all. Like that's the rule.
Riyadh Khalaf
Great. You identify as Jewish?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but like a secular Jew. So not religious.
Riyadh Khalaf
So what does that mean? It's like you're culturally Jewish. But you don't believe.
Hannah Witton
In the same way that most people who celebrate Christmas, maybe don't believe in God or Jesus?
Riyadh Khalaf
Oh God, yeah. I don't believe in any of that. But I love the -
Hannah Witton
Family, food.
Riyadh Khalaf
Commercial elements.
Hannah Witton
Presents!
Riyadh Khalaf
Yes, get me through the shittest month of the year. You know, it's the one thing to look forward to, isn't it? It's funny, like, I found myself, this probably off topic. But I found myself going through these YouTube wormholes about atheism. And -
Hannah Witton
Oh -
Riyadh Khalaf
Or the new thing I've learned recently anti-theism.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Riyadh Khalaf
So atheism is the belief that there is no God. But if there was one you are, you will probably like the idea of there being one, but you don't believe there is one. But anti-theism is the idea that you do not want.
Hannah Witton
You don't want that
Riyadh Khalaf
You don't want that in your life. The idea of having an overbearing overlord dictator who watches over your life, from the moment you're conceived to after you die, and controls all of that is terrifying.
Hannah Witton
It's terrifying to me
Riyadh Khalaf
Right? So people are kicking back against that, so I'm finding all I'm studying that and finding that very interesting.
Hannah Witton
In your little YouTube wormhole. Oh my God, you can get into so many. Back to your book, though.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So we talked about coming out and stuff, but your book isn't just like a coming out guide. Because when I was like flicking through it and stuff you have, it goes into like such, I guess like, niche issues or things that young gay kids might come against that I am like, as you know, a privileged straight person, just like, how do I show affection to my boyfriend in public? and things like that. And yeah, you kind of go into like, it's like, literally from first crush to, like, you're an adult, navigating relationships, navigating friendships, and like everything. Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
No.
Riyadh Khalaf
Aw thanks.
Hannah Witton
It's great.
Riyadh Khalaf
No, cuz that means a lot coming from you. Because I really respect, you know, everything that you do, and your books. And it was the one part of the book that I really wanted to lean into was the kind of the, oh my god, I didn't think about that. Because you can write by relationships and sex until the cows come home. But actually, what mattered to me, and a lot of young gay boys who write to me more, was the basic, simple things of, like you said, just giving someone you fancy a kiss on the cheek in public, or, you know -
Hannah Witton
How to approach people, if you like, not sure what their sexuality is.
Riyadh Khalaf
How to be confident enough to walk into a gay bar, in public, with the fear of knowing that everyone outside that gay bar can see you walking into it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
You know, so I have like little tricks and tips that I picked up along the way. So walk by it a few times, each time, get closer and closer. And then don't go in. And then next time, do it again. And then and then when it just feels right, then go, do it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And my in my privileged brain. I'm just like, is that something that people think about? And is that something that people like do and -
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, I remember walking outside the George, in Dublin, the big, sort of famous, gay bar there and knowing what, what it was but not knowing what was inside. The only thing I knew was that they were my people. And it was inside those walls was the one place on planet earth, in my head, I could feel for once and for all normal.
Hannah Witton
So did you, like what is your story in terms of how did you get the courage to go in?
Riyadh Khalaf
Well, I, I stood on the opposite side of the road, with a guy that I met on Bebo -
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, Bebo!
Riyadh Khalaf
And MSN Messenger, and I just thought he was so beautiful. And we went for a coffee. And it wasn't a date, it was just like, so, I think what we're meant to do is meet up and so we met up and like, we didn't even hold hands, or we didn't do anything. We just sort of were around each other, feeling very horny, without acting upon it.
Hannah Witton
Was that like, your first date with another gay guy?
Riyadh Khalaf
I think so. Actually, yeah, his name was, doesn't matter. Oh, Ray! He had like blond, sort of, emo hair that was swished all the way across. And he had like eyeliner, and I just thought he was gorgeous. And so we went to the George and stood on the opposite side of the road kind of pretending not to look at it.
Hannah Witton
Had he been in there before?
Riyadh Khalaf
No, no.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Riyadh Khalaf
He wanted to go in too. And then we went across the road and kind of like try to look through the frosted windows, you can see shit, all you could see his lights. And we didn't go in. And it was probably about a year and a half, two years until I actually went in, with someone else. And it was unbelievable.
Hannah Witton
What was that?
Riyadh Khalaf
I was under age. So I had a fake ID. And how I used to get in, before I had my fake ID, was the main club entrance was was there and they had a bouncer.. And just down the road, there was a bar attached to the George called, the local name was Jurassic Park because it's where the older gays went. Yeah. So at the back of Jurassic Park, there was a small door, it wasn't even a door, it was more like a hatch, that if you, it was never locked, and you could walk into the club from the hatch. So I would time my footsteps walking from the junction where the traffic lights are, looking at the bouncer and timing his head movements, left and right.
Hannah Witton
What?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah. And I would know that he was about to look away from the Jurassic park entrance. And the minute he looked away, I ran in.
Hannah Witton
What? The detail!
Riyadh Khalaf
And then I'd wait, I'd walk to the back of Jurassic Park, hoping the barman in there wouldn't see me, go through the hatch into the empty Club, which wasn't open yet, and go into the bathroom and sit in the toilet stall for an hour and a half, or two hours, alone. And wait.
Hannah Witton
What?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, and wait there in silence, until I felt that the noise meant the club was full enough, that I could sort of safely enjoy my night, in safety in numbers. Hidden.
Hannah Witton
How many times did you do that?
Riyadh Khalaf
I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Lots?
Riyadh Khalaf
I can't even count. Yeah, like every Saturday like, for a year, two years, until I had an ID that I could use. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Wow!
Riyadh Khalaf
I wasn't going to drink. I wasn't going to even kiss boys.
Hannah Witton
It's just to be around people who are like you.
Riyadh Khalaf
So I was in school Monday to Friday, feeling kind of weird, and sick, and different, and being bullied and -
Hannah Witton
Did people in your school know at this point?
Riyadh Khalaf
I - a couple of my girlfriends knew. And so I would tell them oh my God, I went in and I saw this drag queen and they're like, what's that? And it's like a big cartoon woman. And she's like, scary, but also amazing, and her name is Davina. And -
Hannah Witton
That is such a crazy story because also, if anything, that just kind of is more proof to me that there needs to be social spaces for LGBT people that aren't 18 plus, that aren't like focused on alcohol, and going out and drinking and -
Riyadh Khalaf
But also, you need spaces where you can be anonymous.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Riyadh Khalaf
So there was a space, it was called Belonging To, it was a youth gay group. And, you know, you go there, it's daylight, it's it's quite like, everyone is named, you're sitting in a circle, and it's quite like, ahh!
Hannah Witton
Okay, so rather than just being like a coffee shop that is just known to be like, queer friendly.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, it's mixed. Yeah, it's kind of leaning into that. Yeah, that is very, very helpful. If it exists. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting, because I hadn't thought about the element of anonymity, also being important.
Riyadh Khalaf
Because you go into the George, and you're walking around in a sea of for like, 200 gay men.
Hannah Witton
No one knows your name, no one knows that you're under 18, or what school you go to.
Riyadh Khalaf
And even just the very act of seeing two random men, you don't know, kiss openly and freely, or two men dancing and embracing each other, or a man in a dress, performing as a drag queen, or trans, you know, woman down the back with her group of pals. You know, a guy in a tank top, a guy in a in a you know, it's just like, ah, okay. You can be who you want in here. It's great.
Hannah Witton
How have you found the scene in London then? Because you moved, how many years ago now?
Riyadh Khalaf
Nearly four.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Obviously London's bigger than Dublin, but was that, like, I guess, an easy transition to make? And where, how and where, and did you find like your people, and your community here?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, London was both amazing and terrifying, in equal measure. Because, yeah, in Dublin, you had like, two, three clubs that were constants, and then a couple of nights that would pop up. But as I was getting older, they would sort of close for a couple of nights a week, or they would close completely. You know, we lost our second biggest one called The Dragon, which was up the road from The George, and that was like, devastating to the community. And there was like, it's just -
Hannah Witton
Why did it close?
Riyadh Khalaf
The recession happened, and staying in with the new going out, and prices were crazy. And it was just yeah, it was difficult. And there was no like, in London, we have Amy LeMay.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
And she's an incredible, gorgeous, wonderful woman. And she, you know, her job is to make sure that spaces like that stay open, and stay diverse. We don't have that in Dublin, the markets too small to have that. So when I moved to London, actually, more than just the night scene itself, it was actually the fact that all of the Irish Catholic sexual guilt that I held from Ireland, even though I wasn't Catholic, you still held to guilt, I was able to finally start to let those shackles go.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Riyadh Khalaf
So it's hard to explain what that is
Hannah Witton
Just like meeting people who didn't go to a Catholic school.
Riyadh Khalaf
And weren't sort of brainwashed into thinking that any kind of sex is bad, but particularly, your kind.
Hannah Witton
Right
Riyadh Khalaf
So I had so many experiences where I'd be having a sexual experience with another young guy, at a house party in Dublin. And as we're doing the thing, you have these thoughts in your head going, this is awful, this is bad, this is so disgusting, this is so bad. But you can't help but do it because it's their natural inclination. And when I moved to London, and I started to experiment and really, really launched my sexual career, I began to see my sex life as not something that needed to be done. But something that I wanted to do.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Riyadh Khalaf
And something that I didn't see as my secret, shameful, lustful passion, but my beautiful, gorgeous, sexual gift. And that was a great moment. And I remember like, I was midway through sex with some guy. I, honestly, and we were in the throes of passion and it just clicked.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Riyadh Khalaf
And I started to smile. And he was like, why are you smiling? And I was just like -
Hannah Witton
The Catholic guilt is gone!
Riyadh Khalaf
No, but just like, I just I like, I remember I said something like, wasn't these exact words, but I just said, just this is such a beautiful thing. Like, this just feels so right. And and he was like, oh, yeah, it does. And then we continued, and it was just a really, really gorgeous, lovely thing. And I thank London for that. I thank big city life for that. And I think I've met a lot of gays, queer people in general, who've moved from their you know, 20,000 population strong village and gone to the Big Smoke and found that same thing. So yeah, that's what London did for me. But also, you know, that that the night life here is is incredible, you know, Sink The Pink at Troxxy, in East London, if you don't know about that, it's like three thousand queer people, who all dress up in in super camp outrageous, clothing.
Hannah Witton
I've seen some of your outfits on Instagram from it.
Riyadh Khalaf
Cruella de Vil was one of them . And the first time I went there was when I was shooting an episode of my BBC series, Queer Britain. And I walked in and I saw all of the, and I mean this with the biggest love in the world, I saw all of the freaks come out to play.
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
And what I mean by that is all of the bullied, marginalised, kids who were once shy and reclusive, onstage, celebrated, and fucking killin it. Performing to be Kylie numbers, you know, preparing for their massive show in front of three or four thousand people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
And I just I started to cry, as soon as I walked in, and it was, you know, I was there with the crew. We're filming a documentary and I just thought, my God, this is fucking glorious. And then I kept going back since I shot that episode. And then the last time I was there, they asked me if I would be a judge on stage.
Hannah Witton
Oh, and that was the Cruella de Vil moment.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Now that you brought up Queer Britain and actually, language as well, I guess. Cuz I remember you telling me, when you were shooting Queer Britain, before it had a name and -
Riyadh Khalaf
It had like four different working titles.
Hannah Witton
And you didn't like the word queer.
Riyadh Khalaf
No, not at all.
Hannah Witton
So like talk, talk me through that because I feel like, well you can say -
Riyadh Khalaf
Well, so I was called queer in the playground. And it was like, you know, slur after slur mixed in with, you know, fagot, bum boy, you know, the list goes on. So the word was very triggering for me. And I thought this is a hateful, sharp, pointed term. And I don't identify with that, I am a gay man and that's where it ends. And that's where I was when I started shooting the series. I loved my lesbian, trans, and non binary, and bisexual siblings, but I wasn't them.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay.
Riyadh Khalaf
I was part of the LGBTQ thing, but I wasn't, you know, I wasn't Q. Anyway, we start shooting the series, and the title was Project Rainbow, blugh
Hannah Witton
Bleugh.
Riyadh Khalaf
And then it was Gay Britain. No, that's not gonna work. Then it was, erm, there was another one. And then we had a production meeting. It was myself, the series producer, and about five other people in the BBC. And Lizzy, who I love, she's like my TV mother. She goes, so we're thinking for a title, Queer Britain. And I had this knee jerk, like, no, no, absolutely not. I'm not putting my name to something that's called Queer Britain. I am going to be lambasted. It's going to be horrible.
Hannah Witton
Is that because you still very much saw queer as a slur.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Riyadh Khalaf
And I understood where she was coming from. And we, each episode has its own theme. But the final episode, episode Six, was all about queerness and the word queer.
Hannah Witton
Did you know that that was going to be the final episode?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Before that name.
Riyadh Khalaf
I did. Yeah. So we had a racism one, we had a body image one, we had a homeless one.
Hannah Witton
The faith one.
Riyadh Khalaf
We had the faith one, that was number one. And then and then this was the end. And it was perfect way to wrap it up. But I did, I knew what they were trying to do. And it was the right thing to do, which was send me, the the author of the series, on a journey. A real journey. And I didn't think that I would be going on one, I just thought, okay, whatever.
Hannah Witton
I'm the host.
Riyadh Khalaf
You just got to do what you got to do. And, and actually, all the people that I met along the way, slowly but surely chipped away at my insecurities, and my prejudices, and my fears.
Hannah Witton
Was that because you were meeting people who had reclaimed queer?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yes, exactly, and not just reclaimed it but absolutely loved it, and use it day in, day out. So I remember we, we got to episode six, and we filmed it, and we wrapped it up. And I turned to, I think, to the director, Danni, and I said to her, I'm queer.
Hannah Witton
Aw.
Riyadh Khalaf
And it was just an amazing moment. And I got it. It just, it just made sense. And I felt pride. I didn't just feel like like, identified, I felt proud of it too. Which was such a gorgeous moment. So I love the word queer now. I am, I am both gay and queer. And you can be both. And the beauty of the board is that it can be whatever you want it to be. And so -
Hannah Witton
I kind of see it as an umbrella term.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, yeah. And it's easier as well, when you're trying to name a series. LGBTQ plus Britain isn't gonna work, is it?
Hannah Witton
I think that's a really lovely place to end it, you're queer.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Lots of people are queer.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, exactly. Even straight people are queer, in a way.
Hannah Witton
In their own little ways. Sometimes depending, well, yeah, maybe if you are like a non-binary person who is straight, or a trans person who's straight, then you might identify as queer.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, I mean, what is it? cishet, as they say.
Hannah Witton
Cishet.
Riyadh Khalaf
Cishet people can be queer in there, like I would say my parents are queer, actually.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah. Because of their ally ship and how you know, they are so into it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Riyadh Khalaf
But everyone to their own. I know you feel quite awkward.
Hannah Witton
I just feel like it's not a word for me to claim.
Riyadh Khalaf
Right, yeah. But -
Hannah Witton
But I would totally support anyone.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, but I can, I can kind of just sort of say that you are.
Hannah Witton
Cool. What a great compliment, a little bit queer. Cool! Um, well, where can people find you online? Where can people get your book?
Riyadh Khalaf
So I'm Riyadh k, @riyadhk on everything. So it's R I Y A D H K. And then the book is on Amazon, in all good bookstores, but if you're in a location where the book might be banned, or you can't get it, then Book Depository will get it to you
Hannah Witton
They ship worldwide. Do you know of any places where it has been banned?
Riyadh Khalaf
It's not been outrightly banned, like this book cannot be imported.
Hannah Witton
Or it just hasn't been published.
Riyadh Khalaf
In won't be released in places like Alaska, Russia,
Hannah Witton
Alaska?
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Specifically Alaska.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, China, obviously, Middle Eastern countries, it won't be India. So there's many countries where I've had people write to me saying that they can't get on Amazon.
Hannah Witton
Right, the Book Depository is your friend.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yes.
Hannah Witton
And also Kindle. ,
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah, there's a Kindle version because, you know, a lot of people want to read it more discreetly.
Hannah Witton
Yep.
Riyadh Khalaf
Because it's very pink and rainbowey.
Hannah Witton
Yep.
Riyadh Khalaf
But what I'd say is if you do get a physical version, just rip the front and back pages off it, or the first couple of pages off it, and then it will just look a bit more subtle.
Hannah Witton
Or you can also put your own sleeve on top of it.
Riyadh Khalaf
So there are many ways to get around that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me.
Riyadh Khalaf
Thanks for having me.
Hannah Witton
Always a pleasure.
Riyadh Khalaf
I'll be back for a second time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, nice.
Riyadh Khalaf
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Nice!
Riyadh Khalaf
I'll be back again.
Hannah Witton
Right, bye.
Riyadh Khalaf
Bye. See you later.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to doing it. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it iff you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a global original podcast