Breaking Off an Engagement and Not Wanting Kids with Leena Norms | Transcript
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Leena Norms
If it had been a relationship that didn't have an engagement label, then I might have been much more like, should I break up with my boyfriend? Discuss guys.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you did live with though, which adds other
Leena Norms
Yes, it does add another level, I think. It's also to note that in that time, between I started dating him and we broke up for reals, I stopped being a Christian.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, and welcome back to Doing It. This episode is with Leena Norms, who is another friend of mine. Lena and I actually used to do a podcast together with another friend of ours, Lucy Moon, called Banging Book Club. And if you missed that, then hopefully this episode will take you back a little bit and you can enjoy that. Leena is a YouTube creator, writer, poet, publishing, and social media wizard. She recently published a poetry zine and called Doom Rolled In Glitter, which is 20 poems about her 20s, and is available now on Etsy, if you fancy it. When I first met Leena, she was engaged to her long term boyfriend, who was her first everything. And then she called it off. And now, she is very clear about the fact that she doesn't want to get married or have kids. And so in this episode, we talk about her experience, why she broke off an engagement, what was that like, and now, years later, in a new relationship and being almost 30, how does she navigate the world as a woman who knows she doesn't want marriage or kids? And what does a healthy and committed relationship look like to her. I absolutely love this woman, really happy to have sat down with one of my best friends and just chat about her life. And I hope that you enjoy it. Thanks for listening.
Leena Norms
Hello.
Hannah Witton
Hi. Welcome to, you've been here before, we're at my house.
Leena Norms
Nice kitchen!
Hannah Witton
Leena and I are very, very good friends. But I wanted to get you on the podcast because you have very different values to me, in terms of the whole marriage, kids thing. And then also you have been engaged and you called it off.
Leena Norms
I called it off! I ran out of the church! I didn't get quite get that far. But it was pretty far down the line.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
I'd viewed venues. I had a spreadsheet of everyone that was invited, and who was not invited. Which turned into more of a community activity, but whatever. I, yeah, I think it's interesting, just before I even let you ask me any questions, that you describe it as like having different values.
Hannah Witton
I know because the moment that came out of my mouth, I was like, actually no, we do have similar values.
Leena Norms
It' makes it sound like I vote Tory or something. And I think we have like very similar values, in like how we should treat people, and how, but then I think maybe -
Hannah Witton
Different life choices?
Leena Norms
Yeah, like how we're enacting that in our lives might be a bit different.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
Do you know what I mean? Anyway, just think it's an interesting -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the moment the word values came out of my mouth, I realised that that's not quite the right word. But I don't know how to -
Leena Norms
Yeah, the English language is a bit shit, to be honest. We need better words in English language.
Hannah Witton
That would be great.
Leena Norms
Just calling out the English language.
Hannah Witton
But go on, give us a bit of background to your past relationship.
Leena Norms
Yeah, sure.
Hannah Witton
The getting engaged process and then kind of ultimately where it ended up.
Leena Norms
Yeah, speaking in the vaguest terms so as not to incriminate myself or to or to, to maybe go into too much kind of intimate detail. Essentially, I started dating a guy that I've been friends with for a while, when I was 18 and we were together a really long time. And we were together over a period like he was four years older than me, we were so both together in like a period where we were both changing a lot, to uni or not to uni, through all through all of those trials, going to different universities and making a long distance relationship work, meeting different people, travelling to different places, essentially becoming very different people. I did, at some point, preempt that that would be an issue, and I broke it off. Had a breakup before we got engaged, and then thought, actually, I really love him, I don't want to break up with him even though I think we are becoming different people. So I had the really great idea of trying to fix a breakup with a proposal, which I just don't think -
Hannah Witton
Oh, wait, because you proposed, didn't you.
Leena Norms
I proposed, yeah, which again, is a really interesting like experience to have as a woman because like the way people react as, you know, we can talk about because you proposed to Dan as well. Like people are like really impressed but like maybe like too embrace that like, oh yeah, kick ass and it wasn't really like a feminist move. It's just like a -
Hannah Witton
I think one of the interesting things that comes up is people commend you for your bravery, as if like it's a really scary thing to do. But then without acknowledging that, like, for the men in relationships with women who, like, the traditionally the pressure is on them, that it's still scary for them to do.
Leena Norms
Yeah. Because it's also also like, I think that maybe, I mean, I guess maybe I'm giving their gender too much for break. But like, I think for women, it's commanded as bravery, and for men, it's, it could be a sign of weakness, and, like -
Hannah Witton
Or it's just expected, it's not.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
You know, it's just like, well, obviously, you're gonna do that, without acknowledging that maybe it does take a similar amount of bravery. I don't know.
Leena Norms
Yeah, definitely. And it reminds me almost of are you watching The Crown?
Hannah Witton
No, I don't.
Leena Norms
Oh, my God. So this is part of it, which obviously may have happened in their in their marriage, but like, you know, Matt Smith, aka, the prince, is marrying Queen Elizabeth, who is not yet queen. And he has to reconcile this idea of like, the name of his children and what it will be, and he's really annoyed that the name of, the surname of the children will be Windsor, and it won't be his surname, and he finds it really emasculating.
Hannah Witton
I didin't know that!
Leena Norms
Yeah, so it's -
Hannah Witton
Because she's Queenie?
Leena Norms
Because she's Queen and they have, in The Crown, they have a huge argument about it, because he's like, but my name, the Mountbatten's, it must be Mountbatten, and she's like, it's Windsor. I'm the Queen. And he's like, but you're my wife. You're supposed to be subordinate to me. And she's like, but I am also your Queen, and you will bow me.
Hannah Witton
Whoa!
Leena Norms
And it's like, I it's hard for her to do as well. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think you'd like it. So much power, dynamic abuse. Love it. But yeah, no, I think there is like a subordination thing. And another thing was interesting about the engagement process, as I feel like it was, and I don't really regret it, because I was expressing the level of love that I felt at that time. I think I probably overestimated, like, how much more I would change and how much more, like, whether I my ability to commit. Do you know what I mean? I think I accurately, by proposing I was expressing accurately how much I loved him. But I wasn't expressing accurately how much I had the capacity to commit at that point in my life.
Hannah Witton
Right? So emotionally, you were there, but just logistically -
Leena Norms
Logistically I was, I was 22.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
And again, loads of people are really mature at 22. I was not one of those people. And I think that, another thing that was interesting was that as soon as I got back to uni, and like God love my housemates, they was some of the, they're some of the best people in this world. I got home, and I remember coming up to our house. And there was a huge bedsheet like draped on the front of the house that they painted for me. And it said, Congratulations, Mr. And Mrs. And then his surname. And I was like, I just looked at the house. And I was like, kindly like, Oh, my God, I love my friends, they're so sweet. And partly, like, I'm absolutely horrified, because I really do not want his name. And that feels really -
Hannah Witton
That just felt wrong.
Leena Norms
Weird that they assumed that? Do you know, I mean, and that was like another thing that I was like -
Hannah Witton
I am not going to be Mrs. Blank.
Leena Norms
And so it begins. You know, and then and then I think, like the other kind of parts of the process where you think, oh, actually, you know, all my friends really woke, or like, whatever the word is, and like, oh, like, it's really cool now, like I've been doing a feminist module at uni, so great. And then you still get people who, in your life, that you think are like who really get that and then they're like, well, you're not going to get any more tattoos before you get married, are you? Because it will show through your dress. And I was like -
Hannah Witton
What?
Leena Norms
What? And like, I was talking about getting a haircut, and like loads of loads of people that I know, were like, you can't get your haircut before the wedding. And I was like, I don't even have a date for the wedding. I could be engaged like 10 years! And they're like, you can't cut your hair.
Hannah Witton
Wow. Was it because just like, you know, you know what your hair is, you know how it works, and then you get it cut. And it's kind of like the unknown. You don't want to take a risk -
Leena Norms
Maybe but I think also just people have this idea that you should look your best on your wedding day and looking your best is looking your most natural, and all the things -
Hannah Witton
That natural, glowy, wedding look.
Leena Norms
Have people talked to you about how your look on your wedding day and like, offered -
Hannah Witton
Erm, no.
Leena Norms
That's good.
Hannah Witton
Just fun conversations about the dress, but nothing really about my like other aesthetic stuff. I don't know. A lot of the kind of weird thoughts like that are actually coming from myself.
Leena Norms
Really?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, rather than externally.
Leena Norms
What are you telling yourself?
Hannah Witton
So I've like you know, I've been like toying with the idea, for ages, of getting a personal trainer because that like being fit, especially like with my condition and everything, is like really important to me. However, I don't want to get a personal trainer and then accidentally lose weight, and then be a different shape and not be able to fit into my dress.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, maybe this is more of just a logistical problem but.
Leena Norms
It is, but then it feels like a pressure to stay to your dress.
Hannah Witton
To maintain weight.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
To like, like get, you know, find the dress, and then not change.
Leena Norms
Yeah, also, I'm not being funny and if anybody's listening who works for the wedding industry, please explain this to us. But like why do you have to make alterations eight months before the wedding? Does it take that long to alter to address?
Hannah Witton
What? I've not heard that.
Leena Norms
The first alteration rounds are like in the, I've been a bridesmaid a few times, the first alteration round is like eight months before the wedding. And then you do another one like a couple of weeks before, but they can't do big changes. You can't just be like, yeah, lol I'm actually a size 10, and I was a size 14.
Hannah Witton
A lot can happen in eight months.
Leena Norms
Yeah. And I'm like, guys, it's just a dress. I mean sewing is a very great art, but like fucking hell, a, the industry is set up to be a bit horrific that way, I think for women as well. You have to order your dress a year in advance
Hannah Witton
So I've found a place for my dress, and the fittings and alterations are happening, like in the three months before the wedding. So it's like, but like one each month, so like -
Leena Norms
Oh, that's good
Hannah Witton
Leading up, so it's actually I don't think I go in for my first fitting until three months before.
Leena Norms
Yeah, that's good.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So that made sense to me, when she emailed me, I was like, that makes sense. Anywho, back to your engagement story.
Leena Norms
Back to that. Yeah, so we were engaged for about two and a half years, I think, which everyone was like, tick tock, when's the wedding? I was like, leave me alone.
Hannah Witton
And that's like, when I met you.
Leena Norms
Yeah. And we moved to London together, and I think that, you know, I think when you move in with somebody, which we hadn't done before, and again, when you move somewhere big like London, and you know, I think with London, you have to know, either fits or it doesn't.
Hannah Witton
London changes you, man.
Leena Norms
Yeah, yeah, you either love, love London love life or don't like, no. It's not for everyone. And I think at that point, I realised how different we were and how the trajectory wasn't going like back, we weren't becoming more similar. And I thought the only, the only really fair thing to do was to break it off. And another part of that, that I think, you know, can comment from my side of it was that I think it's really interesting that I did that all on my own. I didn't, I didn't talk to you about it.
Hannah Witton
No, and I remember being so shocked when you said that you like weren't engaged anymore.
Leena Norms
Yeah, I think I text you and you were like, what?
Hannah Witton
But then you explained it and you were like, you didn't want to talk to other people about it, because you wanted to be your decision.
Leena Norms
And I think I know how susceptible to suggestion I am.
Hannah Witton
Just like, give them another chance.
Leena Norms
Yeah. And I think also, like, there's a pressure, again, maybe from my own head that when you're engaged, that's when your relationship has to be like really good. Because you're like, not questioning it anymore. You're like in this period that's perceived as like certain
Hannah Witton
But then people expect, like, once you're married for it to go downhill.
Leena Norms
Yeah, yeah. They expect that and you can go, I fucking hate my husband. And everyone's like, relatable content. But like, if you're engaged, that's supposed to be the period. And if if that engagement period goes on for like, longer than, you know, than a few months, it's hard to keep up that, you know, and I think it's partly I think, is the shame aspect of it, to admit your friends that you're like, I don't think I'm really happy. I'm not sure he's the one! Because then, if you get married to them, then you're thinking in your head, like, oh my God, my friends might be like, yeah, I saw it coming.
Hannah Witton
What's it called? People use it in all sorts of different aspects like relationships, but also like business, for that idea of like, when you've gone, when you've invested so much time, energy, money, or whatever it is into one thing, it's really difficult for you to then like, quit? There's a word for it, but I can't remember.
Leena Norms
Yeah, because you put so much into it and then it's like, yeah, is it you're losing it or gaining in?
Hannah Witton
I can't remember, there is a phrase.
Leena Norms
So yeah, I think it was that as well. And that was an interesting thing as well. Because I think if I if it had been a relationship, that didn't have an engagement label, then I might have been much more like, should I break up with my boyfriend? Discuss, guys.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. A boyfriend that you did live with, though.
Leena Norms
Yes, it does add another level, I think. But yeah, it was it was really interesting. And I think it's also to note that, in that time, between I started dating him and we broke up for reals, I stopped being a Christian.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and that's a big thing.
Leena Norms
That's huge for me. And I know, it's not huge for everyone, but like, and I think it's, you know, I'd love to hear from you as well, like how you grew up thinking about marriage and stuff. But like, for me, I was always raised, I want to say raised, I think I'm raised by a community, I wasn't just raised by my parents, I was raised by all these other people in my life, I think I was really part of church life. And when I say raised I'm not like, it was just my parents, and they sat me down, and they told me, but like this received wisdom, that marriage, well, we can start with the most problematic, marriage between a man and a woman, lies! But you know, marriage is between a man, a woman, and God. Like, there's three people in a marriage, it's a triangle, you can't get married without God, God is the bit in the middle.
Hannah Witton
Friends of mine, who are Christians ,who've gotten married, have explained to me that actually, like, their partner is second in their life, and God is number one, and I was just like, I'm number one in my life, and Dan's actually my number two. Like, is that bad?
Leena Norms
I mean, it's better than, well, you know, not to pass judgement on that. But yeah, I think that's fine. And it's better than, I think, you know, both looking, and they drew they draw like triangles. When you go to like Christian camps, they draw a triangle, and at the top is God, you’re as the wife, you're on the left and the husband's on the right. And if you if you grow closer to each other like that, God gets further away because the triangle gets stretched. So if you keep coming closer to each other, and not God, then God goes up here, and you're further away from God.
Hannah Witton
But if you both get closer to God -
Leena Norms
But if you both get closer to God, you also get close together by accident.
Hannah Witton
Right?
Leena Norms
How romantic.
Hannah Witton
Like, what do they mean, by getting closer together without God?
Leena Norms
For those who can't see me, which is everyone, I'm wiggling my little fingers together and rubbing them, in an erotic way. Yeah, I hope you're aroused by that Hannah.
Hannah Witton
I mean, I'm very confused, still, as to what you're trying to explain.
Leena Norms
Sex, but also, but they say within a marriage as well. If you only focus on each other, and getting close to each other, even after you've banged.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but if you just focus purely on the boning -
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Then get further away from God. Okay.
Leena Norms
So yeah, I think it is related to that. So I still see marriage as a religious ceremony. And I can't get out like, I don't know, you know when you're like, in the same way that I'm still scared of the dark. I don't know why, I could guess. But in general, that's what I experience, is fear when people turn the lights off. With marriage, I'm like, I just associate it with religion, and I don't know.
Hannah Witton
How far into your relationship though, did you stop being a Christian, like, and then before you entered the engagement, were they?
Leena Norms
It was, that was the, that was the grey area. That was the like, I think there is a God, but I don't think it's always this God. I think we can find God in many different ways, right? And like, I'm not, I'm not a Christian. I'm a follower of Jesus. I was in that stage. It's a fun stage to be. For some people, it's a permanent state. But for me, that was a stage. And I was in that period where I was like, I still believed in God, but I didn't believe in like the I was calling bullshit on the Bible, basically.
Hannah Witton
And then, when you ended your engagement, was that kind of like cemented for you then like, marriage is not for me ever now.
Leena Norms
I thought relationships weren't for me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
I was really like, I got hard into like, the spinster literature, and was like, this is it. Bla bla bla, I think that was just like, you know, like, I was just like, I was so wrong about that relationship, that I must be the complete opposite.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But it was like one relationship from when you were 18.
Leena Norms
Yeah. So it's just one experience of a relationship. And I think that's again, like my brother married the girl that he's started dating when they were 13.
Hannah Witton
Wow!
Leena Norms
And they're still, like they're married. And it's, they're really happy. And that's makes sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
To me, they really -
Hannah Witton
Each to their own.
Leena Norms
Yeah, for them. I'm like, awesome, like, great choice. But for other people, I think it's different.
Hannah Witton
Tell us a little bit about your single years.
Leena Norms
The single years
Hannah Witton
Leena's single chronicles!
Leena Norms
So fun. I mean, you've probably heard most of the anecdotes, some of which aren't fit for radio. But I did, I spent three years, I lived on my own at first as well, which was bankrupting, but also very freeing.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, in London. Yeah.
Leena Norms
I used to have to walk to work because I actually couldn't afford the tube, because that's how much it costs to live on your own.
Hannah Witton
How long did that take you?
Leena Norms
An hour and forty minutes, an hour and thirty minutes, depending on as I got fitter, an hour and twenty minutes. If you think about a London commute, it's normally about an hour anyway, I was like, ah it's fine.
Hannah Witton
Mine's like 45 minutes, but yeah.
Leena Norms
I listened to a lot of audiobooks. Yeah. But anyway, lived on my own for a bit, which was really great. And I did do some dating basically, because I've never dated before. Like, he was my first kiss, he was my first everything. So like, I was like, oh my God, I can do this thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
With my phone.
Hannah Witton
Do you remember, then the first kiss you had with someone else? Do you remember that? Or is it just like, a blur?
Leena Norms
Oh, no, I don't think I do. That's really sad.
Hannah Witton
No, it's not sad. Doesn't have to be sad.
Leena Norms
I actually genuinely don't remember.
Hannah Witton
I don't remember my second kiss, as well. Like I remember my first kiss, but I don't actually -
Leena Norms
Oh, I do. It was a great, anyway. Yeah, I dated. And that was really, the activity of it was really exciting. Even if the dates weren't that exciting, and even if the sex was absolutely awful, and like the freedom that I brought was really great. It's kind of like finally realising that you, you've quit your job, and then like going on Guardian jobs and be like, I could do any of these jobs. And probably all of them are like really underpaid, and shit, and you don't really want them but you're on Guardian jobs like, yeah!
Hannah Witton
The world is my oyster, the possibilities are endless!
Leena Norms
It's a weird analogy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I love that it's specifically Guardian jobs as well.
Leena Norms
It's where all the best jobs are, just telling you all, not spon. I did date somebody for like three months. That was like the longest that I dated somebody like I was really just like, going on dates and seeing what was around and collecting anecdotes to entertain you with.
Hannah Witton
Thank you for all of the entertainment. I was single for most of that time as well. It was a good time
Leena Norms
It was, it was really funny. Yeah. And then I met my now boyfriend, Craig, who I live with.
Hannah Witton
Do you call each other boyfriend girlfriend?
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Okay, cute.
Leena Norms
I don't know if there's a cooler name, you know, partners. I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Like I use partner because in my head, I'm like, no matter what the status of our relationship is, I want to use partner, like I hate fiance. And not entirely sure how I'm going to feel about husband. Yeah, so partner just it's like it just covers all bases for me.
Leena Norms
But then that leads me into another interesting part of it, that is like how other people see your relationship. Because I think seeing saying partner, while makes me think of cowboys, the only reason I don't use it, is because it makes people take it more seriously. Or you're telling people, you feel like you're telling me more accurately what your relationship is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
So when you're like, oh, sorry, I can't come to that meeting because it's my partner's birthday.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
That sounds like way more legit, than like, oh, sorry, I can't come with my boyfriend's birthday. But that's silly and it shouldn't be that way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've sometimes had people not sure of the gender of my partner when I described Dan as my partner as well, which I don't want to like, what's the word? I don't want to like, benefit or profit over like any kind of ambiguous sexuality.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And I think you've said that kind of thing before, as well.
Leena Norms
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
So I'm always like, no, he's a man. But I, I do like, the, at least the people that I'm interacting with, aren't assuming?
Leena Norms
Yeah. And do you think also, there's maybe a gender thing there as well. Whereas, you know, because of history being shit, the word husband implies, like a power structure, I think, which it shouldn't.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I don't know. I was also really tempted to not get married, and to do a civil partnership instead, because I don't - I don't know if it's like properly been, like made legal yet. But for opposite, or you can also get for, yeah, for straight people to get civil partnerships, as well. It just basically, you get all of the same rights. It's just because basically, civil partnerships was originally given to same sex couples as a like constellation prize. Like you can't get real married, but it was only given to same sex couples. And then when marriage equality came in, civil partnerships still exist, because obviously, lots of people are legally civil partnered.
Leena Norms
Oh, right. So they need to keep that open. For you on a practical level, does it have any different things?
Hannah Witton
No. So the only practical difference, I believe, is if we travel, and you go to countries that don't recognise civil partnerships, then that could be a bit tricky. So that's why we were like, let's just get married.
Leena Norms
Yeah, that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
But we were thinking about it.
Leena Norms
Why were you thinking about it? I'm interested.
Hannah Witton
Oh, probably for a lot of the same reasons that you don't like marriage.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
With the like, it's deep rooted in patriarchal religion bullshit.
Leena Norms
Yeah, definitely.
Hannah Witton
I hate it. Yeah.
Leena Norms
But that's the thing, I think it's not that I hate marriage, it's just that I don't really want to do it. In the same way as let's just like, I don't hate outdoor swimming, in winter, I just don't want to do it, you know. Like, oh, you could do this thing, and I'm like, but what if I did? You know, like, it's, I feel like that about it. And I think for a while I was like, fuck the patriarchy, fuck marriage, but I also think it's a choice, in the same way that any, like, traditionally feminine choice is still feminist, if you're choosing it.
Hannah Witton
And one of the things that I've been trying to do to kind of like reconcile all of the kind of like structural and like institutional problems that I have with marriage, is making sure that like, obviously, my relationship is non hierarchical, and making sure that the process of like getting engaged and process of getting married and like actually what our relationship is, is like every element of it is like, what we value, and what we want. Yeah, rather than just kind of like, here is a template.
Leena Norms
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think that's good, because I think a lot of people get married without thinking about that. And just automatic, and maybe I think, like, they don't talk to each other about what they're assuming that marriage means.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
And then that's where the problems come, I think, but who knows? I'm not married, I don't know!
Hannah Witton
50% end in divorce.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But that's not 50% of people will have a divorce. It's 50% of marriages. So that includes lots of people who will have multiple marriages.
Leena Norms
Oh, cool
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So it feels less scary when you put it in that context.
Leena Norms
Data is hard.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Dan and I were watching this video on YouTube of divorce lawyers giving relationship advice. And one of the things that they said at the beginning, which I really loved, and I'm like, I want to make this thing that he said doesn't exist exist, but he basically said that marriage is the most significant and legally binding contract you will ever go into, other than death.
Leena Norms
Which is pretty permanent, I've heard.
Hannah Witton
Pretty permanent! And I was like, I love this. And also what was he was then saying, like when you sign another big contract, like say if you're buying a house, you get given so many pieces of paper to sign, to say I understand this, I understand that if I don't pay my mortgage, then this will happen. I understand if this happens, then this will happen. Like you literally have to sign, being like I understand what I'm getting into.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I have read all of the brochures, like I know what's going on. And then in this video he's like they don't even give you a leaflet for marriage. Like, actually, I'm like, actually, yeah. What are we legally entitled to? Don't know.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
How do I get out of this, if I want to? Do you know what I mean, what actually -
Leena Norms
See and that's what's the -
Hannah Witton
Where's my marriage leaflet.
Leena Norms
Part of my head is like, but religion because they do that. Like if you want to get married in a church, you have to have up to five sessions, I think it is, with a with a minister or a vicar or whatever your denomination calls it, or if you're from a different religion, different word. But um, you have to have like meetings with the vicar and he's like, yo, you really in love> Do you know what this means? Do you know how long this is going to last? You know how difficult it's going to be if you don't want to be married?
Hannah Witton
So that's more like the emotional side of things.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I mean, I just want like a really factual leaflet about like, actually what the legal contract is. Not one that says anything about like, the actual relationship, but just like, this is what you're signing.
Leena Norms
Yeah, cuz I think it's scary to not know.
Hannah Witton
I'm like, can I get a lawyer to go over my marriage.
Leena Norms
Because what do you what do you think about, like prenups and stuff?
Hannah Witton
I've heard so many varying things, from absolutely necessary to actually they're not legally binding, and actually a marriage trumps a prenup.
Leena Norms
Oh.
Hannah Witton
And I don't know what to believe. And this is the thing, this is why I'm like, where's my leaflet? And also are prenups actually just an American thing? Because we've seen them in movies. And actually don't have them here.
Leena Norms
Probably.
Hannah Witton
I don't actually know. I don't actually know
Leena Norms
How do we find out?
Hannah Witton
I don't know, like Google it? But like Google sometimes.
Leena Norms
Yeah, could go on gov.uk or something?
Hannah Witton
Dear listeners, please help us out, any divorce lawyer out there!
Leena Norms
Yeah, because I think it is, I think again, it's like, it's different people's choices. But like, they're the things that make me really nervous. And another thing that will not make me nervous in the future, because they're changing it. But like, up until like, last year, I think it's either changed or it's going to change is that you didn't have a no fault divorce, which is what's really fucked up.
Hannah Witton
What's that?
Leena Norms
So you like, if in the UK, you can't just be like, we are both not in love anymore. We both don't want to be married anymore. Can we get a divorce. The law is like lol, no. You have to wait five years, you have to live apart, you have to all these things, prove you're not in love, you have to prove all this stuff. And the only way that you can get divorced faster, is if one of you cheats. Now, both people might not have cheated. It might have been great.
Hannah Witton
But then you have to like be like, okay, which one of us is going to play the blame game?
Leena Norms
Yeah, or one of you rats the other one out, and one just lies and goes she cheated on me. And especially if you have kids, that's what really messes with kids’ heads. And they could have had a really healthy childhood, but -
Hannah Witton
So that's changing now?
Leena Norms
Yeah, they're changing it. Ed Miliband made a podcast about it.
Hannah Witton
Oh!
Leena Norms
We love OG Ed Miliband. I love him. On Reasons To Be Cheerful, there's an episode where he talks to a divorce lawyer about it. And how we don't have it in this country, and how that's real bad.
Hannah Witton
Oh, interesting.
Leena Norms
But it's fine now. I will now permit you to get married because we have like no fault divorce.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, brilliant.
Leena Norms
Yeah. How do you feel about that? Have you talked to Dan about being like, what if we hate each other. Because we're both really big fans of the team, the film series, the Before Sunset series
Hannah Witton
We need to do a marathon of it.
Leena Norms
I know I was thinking about the other day. But it's basically a three part, three films that are shot 10 years apart, with the same actors, and it follows a couple through the various stages of their relationship. But the first day they meet 10 years in when they haven't seen each other in 10 years, and then the third film is about their marriage. And it's super depressing.
Hannah Witton
Actually, it is.
Leena Norms
But also incredible.
Hannah Witton
It's so good. Yeah, we need to do this marathon. I love how this has become like we interview each other.
Leena Norms
Yeah, no, sorry.
Hannah Witton
No, don't apologise, I love it.
Leena Norms
I don't want to sound off about a thing that you're about to do, and not ask your opinion on it
Hannah Witton
I think, with the what if we hate each other and, and stuff, we joke about getting divorced. Like, it's not something that we're both stupidly like, idealistic about, like, that'll never happen to us. We just kind of like this, we are confident, I think, we're very confident in our relationship that we can, like, make it work. But we're also both very realistic of just being like, who knows what life will bring our way. The one thing that we do, that has come up, is that Dan's like, don't worry, I don't want any of your money in the divorce.
Leena Norms
They all say that in the beginning, Hannah.
Hannah Witton
He like literally is, yeah, I know, right. He's just like, I don't care about any of it. And I'm like, just so you know, this flat is mine.
Leena Norms
Yeah, yeah. Because that's the thing as well, is if you get married then you -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh, he said that he wants mustard, our Gekko, in the divorce.
Leena Norms
Oh, wow.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, that kind of I was like, oh.
Leena Norms
You really go into granular detail.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
How exciting.
Hannah Witton
I know. How are we already, being like divvying things up
Leena Norms
Oh, yeah, we've kind of talked about it. Well, I ,we actually have a list, a spreadsheet of like what each of us will get. Because for me like I when I was first living with Craig, a big stage of for me of like us living together was we integrated our bookshelves.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah
Leena Norms
Cuz I was like, obviously you can untangle it, because mainly they’re mine. But like, you know, like, I was like, oh, I guess we're gonna mix up our DVD collection then. Okay, and then get rid of the doubles that we have.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow. Yeah. Our board game collection is entirely like joint at this point.
Leena Norms
I mean, you're basically married.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Leena Norms
It's the same thing. The way I feel about marriage is really linked with my feelings about kids. So like -
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, let's talk about kids.
Leena Norms
Because I, the thing is, I think people have seen that, yeah, people who don't want to get married must have had a, you know, an painful example of marriage in their own lives. And actually, my parents are really happily married. And they're, they're real happy to have kids. They're very excited. They thought they were infertile for 10 years. So when I came along, I was like, a literal gift. Overpraised for the next five years of my life.
Hannah Witton
Are your siblings, older, younger?
Leena Norms
Younger. Andrew's just two years younger than me. So he was just, you know, old news by then. They were like, yeah, we get it, we're fertile. But part of my understanding of their marriage was like, it was explaining to us that we were a family, and that we were secure, and neither of them were going to walk out.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
And like my Uncle and Auntie weren't married for a really, really long time. They had their kids without getting married. And then one day, their kid came home and was like, mummy, Rich's mum and dad don't love each other. And it was like his friend from school or something. And they knew Richard’s, in inverted commas, parents, and were like, oh, no, we think they do love each other, don't worry. And he was like, but they're not married. And they were a bit like, oh, you know, me and your dad aren't married, right? And he was like, but don't you love each other? And like for them, you know, obviously, they've got their own reasons for getting married as well. But like they got married, like, maybe 15 years into their relationship, you know, when they'd had kids and stuff -
Hannah Witton
As a reassurance.
Leena Norms
Yeah, probably. But I think partly it was that, that was part of the conversation was just like, we want to explain to our children what we are, and that's how they understand it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's kind of cute.
Leena Norms
They live in France. So I think they're, like people in France don't get married as much as people in Britain, for some reason.
Hannah Witton
I have no idea.
Leena Norms
The Europeans man, they're just more free! But like, yeah, I think how I feel about that relates to children, because I really don't want them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
And the more like, the older I get, the more I feel like I can be like, I really mean it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Leena Norms
Because I think when you're 23, everyone's like, you'll change your mind. And I'm like, okay, maybe, and then like, now I'm like, nearly 30. I'm like, I'm just gonna say that I don't, and then if I changed my mind, then I will reassert myself. But like, for now, really genuinely, no.
Hannah Witton
Was that a conversation you had with Craig, like, early on?
Leena Norms
Oh, totally. It was one of things we bonded over as friends. Because I was just like, don't you just hate the idea of having your own children. And he was like, oh, my God. Yeah, I do. And I was like, hot.
Hannah Witton
I'm into it.
Leena Norms
Yeah
Hannah Witton
You realise that the two of you will be babysitters for Dan and I.
Leena Norms
Oh, yeah. 100%. But that's fine. I'm happy to be the good, the good guy. Happy to be the activity planner.
Hannah Witton
Awww, yeah.
Leena Norms
But yeah, I just, I really, really don't want them. And I think part of you know, then
Hannah Witton
Was that is also a process because of like, your Christian, like, upbringing, and like, having a nuclear family is often like, a part of that, like marriage and kids. When did you come to the realisation? One, that you were like, maybe I don't want kids or did you always know? And then when did you get the confidence to be able to like, say it, because people are judgy?
Leena Norms
Yeah, people are, or people are just patronising. But yeah, I think, slowly, but I also just think I was always like, oh I don't really want children, like, you know, but not like, I don't want children but like, I don't really fancy that. I believe that, like, you should be really enthusiastic if you want to have children. It shouldn't be like a kind of like, oh, I've got no reason not to have children, so I should. I was just like, I've never become enthusiastic about the idea.
Hannah Witton
Whereas I like remember being broody, from about the age of six.
Leena Norms
Really. And you were like, wanting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I was, my cousin, my first cousin was born when I was six. So I just remember being surrounded by babies from like, six onwards. And also lots of, my mum was like the first of her friends to have kids. And so I was then like, surrounded by lots of younger children as I was growing up, and then by the time I was a teenager, I became like, the babysitter. And so like, I don't know, I've always been surrounded by babies and toddlers and young kids. And I always loved it when I was growing up.
Leena Norms
That's so lovely though.
Hannah Witton
I remember when I was about, like, eight years old or something, and I was carrying one of my mum's friend's babies, in one arm, and drinking a glass of Ribena in the other arm and I'm like, eight at this point. And I thought I was a superhero. I was like, look at me carrying this baby with one hand!
Leena Norms
I thought you were gonna end that story with, and then I dropped them.
Hannah Witton
No, no, I was a superhero. I did not drop the baby, and I drank my Ribena, and all was well.
Leena Norms
Boss! But that's the thing I'm like, you really want children and that's very clear. And that always has to be clear. So like, I'm really happy about that.
Hannah Witton
I'm now having this dilemma that actually having a kid is gonna like make the world set on fire even more.
Leena Norms
Not if you raise an eco child. Like that will fight for our rights.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. So there's that. There's also, to bring it full circle, because you're talking about The Crown at the beginning.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I went to see a play recently called Lungs, which had Claire Foy and Matt Smith in it.
Leena Norms
Amazing.
Hannah Witton
And it's a long conversation between these two people about whether or not to have kids, and they're very much like, are we good people? But you know, like, people like us should be having children, because then we'll raise them right. And it's so interesting, because those are similar conversations that Dan and I are having. But then you're like hearing it being played out, and you're like, oh, God, is that okay? And so it's really interesting. But like, yeah, I've saw a lot of like, our relationship in terms of that turmoil of like, really want to have kids and like, if we raise them to be like, a good person and care about the planet, then, you know, that's fine. But
Leena Norms
You can't control them, that's what's scary. It's basically Pandora's box. You're like, I don't know.
Hannah Witton
The carbon footprint.
Leena Norms
They might - they might vote conservative, just to like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, no, no.
Leena Norms
Just like getting a tattoo, but you know, more permanent.
Hannah Witton
More permanent.
Leena Norms
But I also think that like, we do need some humans.
Hannah Witton
We need some
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Not loads
Leena Norms
Not loads.
Hannah Witton
They do say you should have one less child, but I'm like, I don't know if I could have just one. I'd want to give him a friend.
Leena Norms
So Hannah's like, well, I guess only six will have to do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then there's also the conversation around well, then why don't you just adopt? And I know that the right thing to say is like, I would love to adopt, or if I can't get pregnant, then I'll totally adopt. I actually, I do not know. I cannot say that.
Leena Norms
That's okay, you can work that out
Hannah Witton
Yeah, maybe. I just feel like, that's also something that people might like judge me for?
Leena Norms
What? For adopting?
Hannah Witton
No, for not at all, not adopting.
Leena Norms
I think you would, though, if you couldn't have children?
Hannah Witton
I don't know. But I feel like there would be like a mourning that would have to happen before I came to the conclusion of like, no, still definitely want to be parent, going to do it this way instead.
Leena Norms
Yeah. But that would be like being like, one day, I want to be a homeowner. And then the house that you have your heart on, get sold to somebody else. So you have a moment of like, I thought it be that house. But I still really want to be a homeowner, like, I think that would be fine. Why do I do these weird analogies that make no sense? And really -
Hannah Witton
They help, they help. What about Craig and marriage? Is that also something that you've talked about as friends or as like, I don't know?
Leena Norms
Oh, yeah, totally. And we also talked about it as part of relationship, we were like, no. And I think I, and again, like, it's weird, because I'm just describing the way I feel. But then like, other people don't have to feel that way. But I'm trying to explain how I feel about marriage. Is that like, so you know, if you're at like a really good party, and like, you're like, oh my God, I'm gonna stay at this party all night. This is so cool. And like how you like getting on with everybody, having great drinks., the music's great. And then the person who's throwing the party like comes around the back and like, locks the door. And you're like, now this party has become something I can't leave, rather than something that I'm really enjoying. I'm like, Oh, yeah, I'm definitely probably gonna stay to the end of the night because this is a great party, and somebody locks the door at 9:09pm and you're like, I feel weird about this party now.
Hannah Witton
So that's actually marriage.
Leena Norms
And that's what worries me is that actually the act of getting married might change how I feel about the relationship.
Hannah Witton
I also feel like, there probably has been some research or at least, there are examples that that often happens to people after they get married.
Leena Norms
So yeah, I just don't want to because of that, and because of the the God thing
Hannah Witton
And because of the God thing. And I think we'll leave it on the God thing.
Leena Norms
Yeah. Because of the God thing.
Hannah Witton
Thanks so much, Leena.
Leena Norms
That's cool.
Hannah Witton
For chatting with me publicly about all of this stuff that we have conversations about -
Leena Norms
And also, like, if you want to get married, I support you. To anyone who's listening, I'm like, do that thing. I will come, I will get drunk, I will eat the cake.
Hannah Witton
If you're invited.
Leena Norms
Wow, here we go.
Hannah Witton
The politics of wedding lists.
Leena Norms
But yeah, it's funny. And I've done like readings at weddings. I've picked the readings. And I've been like, here's a reading about how great marriage is, and I'm happy to do that.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, neither Dan and I are like literary people. Like I read books, but not in the same way that you do. And I was like, do we want readings at our wedding? And I was like, I literally could not, for the life of me think of a reading.
Leena Norms
Yeah, it's just like, you know, some people. Like it's like, first dance. Like if you don't like music, then don't have a first dance. It's the same, you know, you don't like readings, don't have a reading.
Hannah Witton
I was like, what would be, Shakespeare?
Leena Norms
It would be more appropriate if you did like a game playing livestream in the middle of your service, that would be more like accurate for your relationship.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like a board game. I don't know.
Leena Norms
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Right, thanks so much. And thank you all for listening. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a global original podcast