Queer Representation in Movies & TV with Rowan Ellis | Transcript
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Rowan Ellis
I remember this so well because I was disgusted by it, because I was so young that I was just like, ew, gross, and their mouths were slightly apart, and you could see tongue. And that was a straight kiss.
Rowan Ellis
Even worse.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to doing it with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello. So we have made it to Episode Seven of Doing It, and according to podcast industry folks, seven is the magic number that most podcasts get to. So, if we get beyond seven, I think we're doing pretty good. So thank you so much for tuning in, for listening, and for all of your feedback on on social media. I absolutely love hearing from you.
Hannah Witton
So June was Pride Month, and the Pride parade in London is this weekend. I'm really excited about this episode, it's with my friend Rowan Ellis. She is a YouTuber, she makes a lot of videos about pop culture, LGBTQ plus representation, and queer theory. Her videos are amazing. And so I thought it would be a great opportunity to get Rowan on the podcast and talk about queer representation in TV and movies. We talk a lot about queercoding, queerbaiting, and this new term that she has come up with, queercatching. We discuss some of her favourite shows and movies that have great queer representation in them, and also her dislike for Love, Simon. I have to let you know that this episode was recorded before Endgame came out. And there was a lot of speculation, and teasing about there being the first openly gay character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And so I had to get Rowan's thoughts on this. And this is a direct quote of what she said; "Well, that was a bit shit, wasn't it." As well as that, we talk about how Captain Marvel is totally gay, and cis and straight actors playing queer roles. Happy Pride, and I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Hannah Witton
Thank you for joining me, Rowan.
Rowan Ellis
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
So you make a lot of videos about pop culture, and queerness.
Rowan Ellis
I do indeed.
Hannah Witton
And that is what I want to talk about. Just all about that queer representation in I think specifically like movies and TV -
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Is that what you know, what I know a bit about.
Rowan Ellis
We'll learn more together today.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But um, I think there's probably going to be lots of words that we're going to use, and also ones that you're going to teach me. So I thought, let's do like a glossary.
Rowan Ellis
Okay
Hannah Witton
At the beginning, but then we can also like go super deep into it as well. But like, what is queerbaiting?
Rowan Ellis
Wow, start with the big one, Hannah. So queerbaiting is a technique that is sometimes used by people who make film or TV shows, where they will use queercoding, or romantic hints at relationships or characters within a show, that they might be queer. So if you were to watch it, and someone said, this is a queer character, you'd look at it and be like, oh yeah, that checks out. But they never actually confirm it in the show itself. And oftentimes this spills over into the marketing, into publicity pushes, into hints and tweets, and they will never explicitly deny that that's what's happening. Or occasionally, they will sort of deny it, or scoff at it, but they'll still continue to do that in the show itself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And ultimately, like, what I kind of see it as as it's a way to get like queer audiences on side. To be like, look, we're doing representation, but then without alienating the homophobes.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, that's exactly what it is,
Hannah Witton
Right. And like, would, like, Dumbledore is gay, be an example of that, or is that something else?
Rowan Ellis
So it's kind of something else. So I did a video about this, which is kind of looking at the history of this. So queerbaiting is very much within a time where you could reasonably expect gay characters to be. Previously to that, you had something that was more queercoding, which is often used when you had censorship that meant you couldn't show gay characters, to suggest a character was gay,
Hannah Witton
Was that like often based on stereotypes?
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, so the idea of the gay man who was often like predatory, and extremely feminine, and would often be the villain, and would almost always come to a tragic end. And you saw that a lot,
Hannah Witton
Like Scar,
Rowan Ellis
Yes, Scar is an excellent queer coded villain. A lot of Disney Villains actually are quite queercoded.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, Ursula.
Rowan Ellis
I think it's very similar to like Jewish coding of villains, in that it happened a lot when people were kind of trying to hint at something and as we move to like more modern takes and writers, they don't necessarily know why they think that villainous characters should have a nose that looks like that, or act in a certain way, or talk in a certain voice. But they're just like, "That's what I've always seen in my media, because that's what I do."
Hannah Witton
That's what I've been thinking as well. Like, at what point did it become like almost accidental? Just because it's what you know. And that's kind of how I feel about the goblins in Harry Potter, when it comes down like being Jew coded.
Rowan Ellis
Yep.
Hannah Witton
But I like can't believe that JK Rowling would do that on purpose.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like that, just like, I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like, but it is this weird, like, oh, there's money involved. So obviously, they have to have, be goblins, and have big noses. I'm like, wow.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, it's very, it's very, it's it's one of those things where everything kind of like falls into one another. And especially because we're not really necessarily taught the history of these tropes, and of the stereotypes, it's quite difficult for you to be aware of like where they're coming from. So with something like Dumbledore being gay, where it's talked about afterwards, it's an interesting one. So I've kind of talked before about the idea of we have queercoding, that leads into queerbaiting, that leads into something that's called queercatching, which is where -
Hannah Witton
What's queercatching?
Rowan Ellis
So this is something that happened really recently, where instead of, it's like the opposite of queerbaiting.
Hannah Witton
Is this a term that you've coined?
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oooo, this is exciting.
Rowan Ellis
I mean, it's not particularly exciting because it's not like published somewhere, it's like just I used it in a video.
Hannah Witton
Now people are going to cite you. Just like queercatching, first coined by Rowan Ellis.
Rowan Ellis
Oh my gosh, Hannah, the dream. Yes, it's essentially weirdly like the opposite of queerbaiting. In that you have people who publicly will say, we have a gay character in this movie, we've got, you know, a classic example would be LeFou in the Beauty and the Beast kind of remake with Emma Watson. That you had the critics come out and be like, you know, we've got a very gay moment in their, characters gay, LeFou's gay in this movie. And then when you watch the source material, you don't see that at all.
Hannah Witton
You're like, wait, that split second, that if I blinked, I would have missed it.
Rowan Ellis
Exactly. And it happens quite a lot. We had a character in How to Train Your Dragon 2, which you just never would have seen if you weren't looking for it. The new Star Trek, as well, Sulu being gay is something that absolutely you could have, a lot of people that I know who didn't know it had been talked about, thought that this guy was his brother.
Hannah Witton
Is this like Valkyrie being bisexual, and and that scene just being cut.
Rowan Ellis
Yep. So Valkyrie is another interesting one. There's a lot of ways in which this particular kind of marketing happens. So in that one, it was one of those, we're going to mention it, and we're not going to have anything in it, but we're still kind of going to hint around it, and we're going to talk to you about the scene that we would have put in the movie. But if you're just someone who went to see the movie, you would never have seen any part of it. And it has a very similar situation.
Hannah Witton
You won't have the gay agenda pushed down your throat.
Rowan Ellis
Exactly, just aren't we the worst. But it's a very similar thing to queerbaiting in that it's a very easy way of getting hype for moving, getting audiences to go and see it and get excited about it, but you don't have to alienate them.
Hannah Witton
The pink pound.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, exactly. But I'm kind of hoping people are becoming more savvy to it, and they're not going to put up with it. But what I what I worry about next is that we're going to get representation that's going to be in there, but it's it's not going to be good. It's kind of going to be based on those stereotypes and those tropes that people haven't necessarily unlearnedm and because we've not really seen a lot of like, in inverted commas, family friendly media, especially in films you know, Disney's never had an openly gay character in their films that they've talked about. The worry is that there isn't really a model or a map for creating family friendly like gay Disney characters. And so that balance of trying to be truthful to the LGBT experience -
Hannah Witton
When, yeah, when something is labelled as LGBT, it's also often automatically labelled as adult content.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, there's a lot of examples of films in which the amount of not even sexual activity but like kissing that happens, will automatically make it a 15 rating if it's two girls or two boys.
Hannah Witton
I remember like the first like snog I think that I saw like in a movie, when I was younger, was in Honey I Shrunk the Kids.
Rowan Ellis
What a specific title.
Hannah Witton
No, but I remember this so well because I was disgusted by it. I was so young that I was like, ew, gross, and that kiss, I think their mouths were slightly apart, and you could see tongue, and I was like, ew, disgusting. And that was a straight kiss.
Rowan Ellis
Even worse, it's really, it's interesting like if you look for kisses in kids media there are some very passionate kisses. The kiss in Tangled is really intense, like it's -
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah.
Rowan Ellis
Like it's, there's a few, they I think they have a few of them but like she properly like jumps on him -
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah.
Rowan Ellis
And yeah, it's this idea of like LGBT people are so sexualized, just for existing, that if you even have them hold hands, it will be like this is too much. Way too much. We've actually seen, interestingly, an example in kids media having LGBT characters in the new season, Dragon Prince on Netflix.
Hannah Witton
Okay, I've not heard of this.
Rowan Ellis
It's a very good show. But the only LGBT characters they've had are this this character's parents, who we only see during flashbacks and they're dead. Like they're already dead at the start of the show. So the flashback is just like how they died, and they do kiss in it, and so it's this really weird thing of do we criticise the idea that it's like really leaning into heavily into this bury your gays trope, which is a trope in which gay people disproportionately are killed, and often, quite tragically, in media -
Hannah Witton
That don't get their happy ending.
Rowan Ellis
Never get the happy ending, and oftentimes, actually, their death will come immediately after their happy ending. So they'll get married, a lot of times it happens on their wedding night, or when they've just consummated the relationship, or when they've just reunited with a lover or a partner -
Hannah Witton
Some kind of devine punishment.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, and oftentimes, it's it's, there's this whole stray bullet syndrome thing. So it happened with like, Lexa in The 100, it happened with Tara in Buffy, is the kind of quintessential example of it.
Hannah Witton
I've never seen Buffy, oh God
Rowan Ellis
How dare you.
Hannah Witton
I know.
Rowan Ellis
But it's this guy just shoots a gun in the air and a bullet goes just through the window and straight into Tara's like, abdomen. And she dies.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Rowan Ellis
And that's, I mean, spoiler alert, but it's pretty, it's a well known example of the trope. And to the point where I I've watched some interviews with women who were playing queer women on TV, who were like straight women, who their character would come out and they would say, they've done interviews saying, you know, I was getting like, dozens of tweets a day from people being like, don't forget to wear a bulletproof vest. Like don't forget to make sure your characters wearing the bulletproof vest. And they were like, why, what, that's so weird. And they dug into it and they were like, "Oh God, this trope is like just intense."
Hannah Witton
Stray bullet.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, like -
Hannah Witton
It's so specific as well.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah and it's, because it's such a waste. It's so - there's a lot of different reasons why the bury your gays trope is used. And it's, obviously you have the old fashioned idea of like gay people have to be punished. But a lot of it now is this kind of weirdly insidious, subconscious thing of like gay people don't have happy endings. They can't have happy endings. Their lives have to be sad.
Hannah Witton
They have to be a struggle.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, it has to be a struggle, it has to be difficult. So gay people are really likely to die, as well as stray bullets. AIDS is obviously a massive one.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Rowan Ellis
Kind of disproportionately, it tends to show people dying of AIDS, which is often like played by a straight person, written by a straight person. AIDS activism has only really just started to become something that's being portrayed. The kind of suicide is a big one that that currently happens, gay bashings are a big one. It's just this idea of like the life experiences of gay people growing up are going to be like inherently tragic ones.
Hannah Witton
I feel like before we get into just more terrible terrible representation, or just lack of completely, what, to you, are kind of like some standout good representation.
Rowan Ellis
So I really really love Elena in One Day at a Time. RIP, it's been cancelled by Netflix.
Hannah Witton
I heard about that. I haven't seen it, but I've seen like clips and stuff that you've posted on Twitter.
Rowan Ellis
It's really it's just like a really nice kind of family sitcom, cute thing.
Hannah Witton
And that character is a lesbian.
Rowan Ellis
Yep, she's a lesbian, but she's also like a feminist, and activist, but it's never really like laughed at.
Hannah Witton
She's like you, but without the blue hair.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, I think the reason why I like her is because I'm so the same as her.
Hannah Witton
I did watch one of the clips and I was just like, oh, it's Rowan.
Rowan Ellis
I feel like, and it's actually one of the first times I've ever seen a character and I'm like, oh, this is me on screen, which is wild.
Hannah Witton
But I also think that that is such a huge thing. And like, I'm straight and so I have had so many characters to relate to. And I think when you're used to that, you forget like how much big a deal it is to be like, oh my god, it me.
Rowan Ellis
But in terms of like, you can have really good representation of relationships that aren't or like happy and go lucky stuff. So Moonlight, obviously, it's just an unbelievable film, it's stunning. And God's Own Country is another one which is really really brilliant.
Hannah Witton
What did you think of Love, Simon? Cuz obviously that was all of the hype. Oh, what's that laugh?
Rowan Ellis
Oh, I didn't like Love, Simon, for a lot of reasons. I think that Love, Simon is something that I think a lot of people probably were found pretty comforting. And I think that's always really great. But I think the marketing around it really pushed it as if it was like the first film I'd ever shown gay teenagers on screen, which is just absolutely not true, at all. Like I made a list I posted online of like 65 other ones, and people were still sending me more to put up on the list. And I think that it's really, like it's really great showing like, hey, this is a mainstream film, from a major studio ,that is a romantic comedy that has a teen gay protagonists. Like that was what it was the first off, but they, I think that undersells the importance of like queer cinema that's come before, by actual queer people, who have like written, and directed, and starred in it, and have like completely pioneered the way for Love, Simon to even be possible. And what I worry is that by by talking about it as if it's like the one of its kind, you're going to cut off a lot of queer young people from like exploring queer cinema, which has been a lot more subversive -
Hannah Witton
Because they're like, this one film is my education and that's it, and there's nothing that came before.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, I see a lot of them like commenting to me when I criticise Love, Simon at all, where they're like, you can't criticise it because it's the only one, and I've never seen anything like this before. And I'm like, but that's the point.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And also you want to -
Rowan Ellis
You could have seen more of this, if you actually knew about it.
Hannah Witton
You also want to be in a position where there's so much out there, that you can be like, I like this one, but I hate that one -
Rowan Ellis
Yeah. I mean the other thing that I find quite frustrating about it is that it maps on a very heteronormative storyline and narrative onto a gay experience. And because they've set up in that world the idea that the world is exactly like ours in terms of the fact that like homophobia exists and things, it just isn't a logically or emotionally consistent. So in a lot of -
Hannah Witton
Have you read the book?
Rowan Ellis
I liked the book.
Hannah Witton
Okay yeah, I have one massive issue with the film. I'm - and I don't know if we've spoken about this before. So maybe you'll agree. Which is the how, spoilers, how Simon and Blue like meet, which like I watched the film first, and then I read the book, and but as I was watching the film he's like on the Ferris wheel and he sends out a thing being like, hey Blue, if you want to like make yourself known to me I'm going to be on the Ferris wheel, at this time. Which is basically forcing this kid out.
Rowan Ellis
Yes, Hannah, you are entirely correct.
Hannah Witton
And I read the book, and he doesn't force them out at all. It's a very private thing, like, hey I'm going to be here, like approach me if you feel comfortable, and them meeting is very private affair, rather than like in front of their entire school.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Which I had a big issue with. I loved, I really loved the rest of it but then no one was talking about it, and I was really confused of like, why is no one talking about the fact that he forced this kid out.
Rowan Ellis
So I think that's exactly it. So in a lot of teen movies what happens is you, when you have a romcom teen movie, you have one character who has character flaws within themselves which means that they are not yet worthy of there like significant other, which is kind of how rom coms work in general. Sometimes it's like a big misunderstanding thing, and -
Hannah Witton
Oh you've got to love the big misunderstanding.
Rowan Ellis
I'm like an aboslute slut for misunderstanding narratives. I love them. And so, what normally happens is it's like, I'm a jock who is very callous and doesn't really care about anyone and I make a bet with my friends that I can get the ugliest girl in school to like go to prom with me, and make her beautiful -
Hannah Witton
I've definitely watched this one.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, so the idea is, me, the jock character, I have a personality flaw. Like I have some kind of flaw, which is that I don't care enough for other people. I don't have enough empathy, I'm much too - like especially if I'm a jock there's a lot of like it's in the toxic masculinity element. And so what has to happen is, I have to learn, actually, that this person is like a human being, and to be respected, and learn to kind of end up probably falling in love with them, and then you'll have the big third act turn where she finds out that it was all a bet the whole time. And even though I've changed, she finds out who I really was at the beginning
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah.
Rowan Ellis
And so what happens is I have, my character flaw has been exposed and I have to earn her back, and so oftentimes in teen romcoms, it's like I have to kind of basically humiliate myself to show that I am not that grandiose jock that I was before.
Hannah Witton
Which is where all of the public displays.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, public displays of affection, I have to lay it all on the line, you have to take a risk, I have to trust. And so the idea is like I had this character flaw, and I'm now I'm kind of getting over it in some way. The only character flaw Simon had was being blackmailed, which is not a character flaw. So there was nothing to forgive. Like the whole idea that they never actually - his friends never say actually although it really hurt me that you set me up with this guy,I understand why you did it, because you were being blackmailed. It wasn't because it was a character flaw, that you were being kind of an asshole. It wasn't that you were being like, do you know what I mean, it was like it was literally because you were being forced to. And then for him to turn around, and do that to someone else
Hannah Witton
Right.
Rowan Ellis
Because that's the big like, put your heart on the line moment that works for heterosexual couples in romcoms, and teen romcoms, that just doesn't map on to a gay experience. And it was very frustrating to me that they had tried so much to do the whole like, love is love, gay people a normal too, kind of thing, that they completely ignore the reality of being gay. So yeah, I -
Hannah Witton
Like the whole reason why that correspondence was secret in the first place.
Rowan Ellis
Yes, exactly. And I think that it's very easy to just look at the posed, you know, screencap image of two boys kissing on a ferris wheel and be like, why do you hate gay love Rowan? Like, why, why aren't you looking at this and saying how revolutionary it is? And I'm like, but actually, let's look a little bit deeper for one second.
Hannah Witton
And also Hollywood, the way they make films man, with the music, and the swelling, and like the pace of it, I was still crying.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
When he got to the Ferris wheel, even though I was just like, this is real bad, but it's so beautiful.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, cuz you're like, this is what you're trying to see, that image of like the person like, kind of thinking, like everything is over and being like, well, I put my heart on the line. I'm not gonna get the happy ending -
Hannah Witton
Because you're rooting for them.
Rowan Ellis
You're rooting for them. But yeah, it was just everything, when you thought about it for two seconds, it was like, oh God, actually, this is kind of the issue with making films where we say, it doesn't matter if anyone's gay -
Hannah Witton
And I think it's really easy to get swept up in that, because a mutual friend of ours, who absolutely loves that film, I mentioned it to him afterwards. I was like, do you not see that he like forced him out, and he was like, oh my God, yeah. And it hadn't even like occurred to him because of just being like swept up in the movie magic, and just like oh my God, it's so beautiful. Yeah, once again, I was like, what's good representation? And then we got onto complaining, once again.
Rowan Ellis
I'm trying to think of like other good stuff. Sense8 I adore, I think it's -
Hannah Witton
I've heard, yeah, cuz we've not really talked too much about trans representation as well.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And there's a trans character in Sense8 as well
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, yeah. So the Wachowskis, I can never remember how to say the names, the, the sisters, I'll just call them, are both trans.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay
Rowan Ellis
And it came out, and like are the creators of the series. And so there's a lot that's been said about the idea of like the Matrix, which they obviously also made, being kind of a trans allegory, and all this kind of stuff that's really interesting.
Hannah Witton
Like the real world, and then the Matrix.
Rowan Ellis
I think it's like, I'm not a Matrix like, yeah, afficionado.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I don't know much about it. I have seen it, but like -
Rowan Ellis
Google it, I guess. But Sense8 is absolutely, it's like a story where you have this incredible trans character who, Nomi, who the premise is essentially that like eight people become psychically connected across the globe. And I think a really subtle thing that they do, that's never commented on, even by the trans character, but I think is like a perfect example of them writing a trans character really well, is that none of the characters have an issue with her being trans, and they are from like, all different religions, all different places in the world, but the idea being, if you're psychically connected to someone who's trans, you see inside their brain, so you understand them.
Hannah Witton
You wouldn't have a problem, yeah.
Rowan Ellis
So you, so what they're basically saying is, the seven people from around the world can go into a trans person's brain, and immediately accept that that's their reality. It's not - and I think that's super powerful, and it's never commented on, there's never any, like tension around it. They immediately are like using the right pronouns, seeing her as a woman, and it's just a thing that's never commented on. And I think that's something that, potentially, if it hadn't been trans creatives who had been involved, it would have been a big plot point of like, a debate, or like, what's going on here.
Hannah Witton
Oh, a debate.
Rowan Ellis
Or, do you know what I mean, it's, it feels like it wouldn't have been dealt with in such a kind of sensitive way. And also to have a be a trans woman, who's also queer. So she has a girlfriend in there, and I think that's super interesting as well. And it kind of defies all the stereotypes of the trans women, who are constantly portrayed as cis male actors, who have these tragic storylines where straight men fall for them, and all this kind of stuff. It was very much going to a place of representation that we hadn't necessarily seen before, that was really interesting. And they also have like gay characters that show and then because people are psychically sharing a link, we have this idea of like queerness that transcends the orientation that you already had, the idea of, if I share a kind of consciousness of someone else, do I start to find their attractions - I mean, it's it's just such an interesting exploration of like, of sexuality.
Hannah Witton
I guess it's just kind of like that open mindedness.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a, the, they solve a love triangle with a three way relationship. So they have a relationship that's kind of been an encroaching love triangle the whole time, and in the end, they're just like, oh, these two guys are just going to accept the fact that this woman kind of loves both of them. And they're both going to be like, oh, well, I kind of understand if she likes you, then there must be something really good about you, and I kind of like you as well. Hang on, are we kind of attracted to each other right now, and it's just all three of them just kind of exploring the idea of like, having the amount of love to give that you can love like two people at the same time, in different ways, but it's still can be really amazing.
Hannah Witton
Damn, this sounds like a great show.
Rowan Ellis
It's genuinely, you'd really like it. It's a it's a very good time. And also, they're like they input it with like, it's action, it's sci fi, it's all of this other stuff happening, and also like there's there's like an orgy scene every season.
Hannah Witton
Why did no one sell it to me that way first?
Rowan Ellis
There we go, there's an orgy scene in every season, because it's kind of like if you're psychically linked, and people are super horny, you're probably going to get horny as well. And then it's everyone's horny, and they're all their partners, and everyone's - and so there's scenes that they film, where all of them are together, even though they're all in different places in the world, they all feel each others energy.
Hannah Witton
They're all just having sex.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God.
Rowan Ellis
It's great. It's a good time.
Hannah Witton
Sounds amazing. Other than that, though, I - I'm really struggling to think, off the top of my head, like any trans representation in like, TV and movies that I've seen recently.
Rowan Ellis
Oh, one that's just come to the UK. I sneakily watched it when it was on in the US.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Rowan Ellis
Is Pose. So this is a show that has the most, I think it's the most trans women in it, but absolutely the most trans women of colour ever, on a television show.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Rowan Ellis
It's amazing. It's about the New York ballroom scene. And it's just the story of like these trans women of colour, and their families, as they're in the ballroom scene, and they're making fan family, and they're looking after each other, and they're fighting, and they're falling in love, and like all of this stuff, and it's just stunning.
Hannah Witton
And that's coming to the UK soon.
Rowan Ellis
It's on the BBC.
Hannah Witton
It's on the BBC now.
Rowan Ellis
I think it might, the whole thing might be on there actually, at this point. It is truly brilliant. They are incredible. I think it absolutely puts to bed this this ridiculous myth that like there aren't enough trans actors who are available, like we've got to cast cis men because where are the trans actors? Where are the trans women?
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, with the whole Eddie Redmayne thing,
Rowan Ellis
There's a lot of them, and I think it's one of those things that frustrates me because they, a lot of people will say, well, don't you want a trans story to be a success, we have to have a well known actor in that role. And I think you could just as easily cast, make the PR story, we found this unknown trans actor kind of, and then have the award, you know, the award winning performance be a supporting actor or actress, who was a very established person who plays a parent, or a teacher.
Hannah Witton
But also, movies get made all the time with like an unknown, introducing people.
Rowan Ellis
100%.
Hannah Witton
And it makes their career.
Rowan Ellis
Well, there's - so the OA is a really really great show Netflix, that is weird as hell -
Hannah Witton
I've seen season one.
Rowan Ellis
Okay cool, I won't spoil.
Hannah Witton
We'll spoil everything else, other than things for me.
Rowan Ellis
I mean, because this isn't a spoiler if you, even if you haven't seen season one, there was a character in it who's a trans boy. And when they were making the show, Brit- who, Brit Marling, who is the kind of writer, creator, one of the writers and creators. They had always written it as, it's an Asian American, trans masculine teen. And the team were like, we're never gonna find that, that's impossible. And they were like cool, but that's the character, so you're gonna have to. And the casting team were like no, it's literally like, we've asked all the agents, no one has one.
Hannah Witton
Asked all of the Asians? All of them.
Rowan Ellis
They were like we literally we've asked all the agents. Agents, not Asians!
Hannah Witton
I heard Asians, oh my God, I thought they'd said they'd asked every Asian person.
Rowan Ellis
They were like, we've asked all the agents, and there are none. And they basically said look, where are trans teenagers hanging out? Tumblr. So they posted on like forums on Tumblr, like where all the actual trans people were, and were like, hey, any of you aspiring actors, this is something we we're looking for, we'd really love you to send in tapes, like audition. And they got hundreds. Hundreds.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God.
Rowan Ellis
Hundreds of like transmasculine, Asian-American teenagers.
Hannah Witton
I love this story.
Rowan Ellis
Everyone was like, this is too specific, and they had hundreds of people audition. And the guy that got cast, Ian Alexander, is like incredible. He plays Buck in the series, it's just brilliant, and it's written, and like again, no spoilers from season two, but he's got even more amazing performances to go.
Hannah Witton
And he was found -
Rowan Ellis
Through Tumblr, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Amazing, oh I love that. That just goes to show like that you just have to care, and try a little.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah there's like no excuse. You go to the place where people are, in the same way that you - where you advertise writing competitions is going to give you a different demographic of writer. You can't say okay, we've we've only really done it in these particular kinds of bookshops, where you know that actually the only chains are in cities, where the hell is your rural representation going to come from? Like you, there are all these little things that you might not even think about, it might just be like oh, it's easy, right? You just send it off to this particular like person and share on their network, but if you - I think like that lack of diversity ends up like saturating everything that you do, if you aren't actively thinking about it from the beginning, whatever that looks like. Whether you're trying to sell tickets to people for an event, or you're trying to, yeah, like find talent. If you aren't thinking about where those people are actually like existing on the internet or in person -
Hannah Witton
You have to go to them.
Rowan Ellis
You have to go to them.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to bring up Marvel. Well, we already kind of talked about Valkyrie a little bit.
Rowan Ellis
Yes.
Hannah Witton
But Captain Marvel, you made a video about.
Rowan Ellis
Yes.
Hannah Witton
I also feel like we should state that we're recording this the day before Endgame comes out.
Rowan Ellis
Oh God, I'm so stressed out
Hannah Witton
So there might be more stuff that happens.
Rowan Ellis
I very much doubt it
Hannah Witton
And we don't know, so we can't comment on that, but we'll comment on Captain Marvel. So I saw that you uploaded a video saying, definitive proof Captain Marvel is gay.
Rowan Ellis
With diagrams.
Hannah Witton
Yes, with diagrams, which is which is the main thing that really -
Rowan Ellis
Drew you in.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, I know you, you're my target audience.
Hannah Witton
And then it took me like a month to actually go see Captain Marvel.
Rowan Ellis
So many people have been messaging me, literally, like I get messages every single day being like, I finally saw Captain Marvel, I could finally watch your video.
Hannah Witton
I literally sat in the foyer of the cinema that I was in, on my phone, watching your video as soon as I came out of the screen.
Rowan Ellis
I mean it checks out, right, like it's all there.
Hannah Witton
The thing is that like I now am wondering, if I hadn't have seen your title and thumbnail, would I have come to the same conclusions? Because obviously I had your voice in my head going, she gay, she gay, she gay. But I think I would have, because it wasn't, like I was not trying to look for it. I was like, oh, it's there.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And I think you say this really well in your video, which is, it's not necessarily queercoding. It's romantic-coding. And it's so - is that, I mean spoilers I guess.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, whatever spoilers she's gay.
Hannah Witton
She's gay.
Rowan Ellis
They don't, but like they obviously don't put it in the movie. And it is what's so funny about LGBT representation is that so often people will will say, like on Twitter or whatever, like I can't believe the Captain Marvel came out as having a wife and daughter in the movie. And you just - I automatically assume everyone's joking like what any kind of representation, for whatever movie is, whatever TV show, if someone says a character's gay I'm like okay, but are they actually, or are you just saying that because you want them to be.
Hannah Witton
Aave any of the cast or writers like commented on the relationship? What's the name of the woman who -
Hannah Witton
Maria.
Hannah Witton
Maria.
Rowan Ellis
So they haven't commented on that. But Brie Larson has been doing a lot of like, Twitter liking and retweeting and stuff of Valkyrie Carol art. And, like, so has Tessa Thompson, who plays about Valkyrie, but in a very sort of like, we have no control over what is going to happen to our characters, kind of way.
Hannah Witton
And just and just kind of enjoying the fan art and stuff.
Rowan Ellis
And like, but very much not like this is going to happen thing. And I think that stuff is always so frustrating because it's not queerbaiting, but it still feels kind of painful to be like, this is something we can kind of like joke around and have people be like, oh my god, how cute is this? But we know it's never actually going to happen.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like, oh, we know that you really, really want this, and we're going to let you dip your toes in. But that's it.
Rowan Ellis
And the thing with queerbaiting is you often don't know where it's coming from. So you've had examples where it's been sort of talked about the idea that actually the writers weren't opposed, but the actor had said, I don't want to play a gay character. Like we've had all this kind of stuff.
Hannah Witton
Sure.
Rowan Ellis
I definitely think that Tessa Thompson and Brie Larson will be absolutely up for it, if they were, if it was written. Like I don't think they're teasing, I think they literally, both of them, are like this would be really cute. But they don't have any - like they're just cogs in the Marvel machine.
Hannah Witton
The Disney machine.
Rowan Ellis
Oh God, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Oh, and Disney has got his first film with a gay character. Played by Jack Whitehall.
Rowan Ellis
Jack Whitehall. Yeah. Jungle Cruise, the Jungle Cruise movie.
Hannah Witton
Which I haven't read all that much into. But I just know there was backlash because it was Jack Whitehall.
Rowan Ellis
The way their characters, yeah, the way the characters described just sounds like the joke is that he's gay. So we know he's a gay character, but the joke is like, kind of like, effeminate, limp wrist, like not quite like this, but that's how it's read.
Hannah Witton
Is it a comedy?
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, it's based on the Jungle Cruise ride, which is a ride at Disney World where you get taken on like a fake tour, down a river, in a jungle, and the skipper just makes puns constantly like the entire ride is just them making quickfire jokes at you, about what is going on in the forest. Like it's really funny, if you get a good skipper, it's hilarious. So it's very much going to be a comedy. It's not like a Pirates the Caribbean style, like we're making a serious thing based on a ride, it's it's definitely gonna be a comedy. It's got The Rock in it as well, and I think Emily Blunt might be in it. But yeah, Jack Whitehall's character, as a man who who's kind of entire kind of comedy career is the idea that he's like a sort of camp, posh boy, whose dad thought he was gay, it's kind of a bit weird that he's been asked to play it. And when it got released, a lot of the press statements from his team would refer to the idea that it was like his biggest, most well paid, role yet. Like that was part of the message around, it was very weird.
Hannah Witton
I guess that is just kind of like rubbing in the face of like, and the straight people they're gonna get paid to play your roles. I definitely understand where like people come from, of like anyone can play any character, that's what acting is. But there is that history of just like that such a lack of representation, and then actors as well, not getting not getting like, not just not getting the queer roles, but just like not getting roles.
Rowan Ellis
So this year at the Oscars, more straight people were nominated for playing queer characters than gay people have ever been nominated. So kind of, yeah, no gay person has ever won for paying a gay character. But a lot of straight, and cis people have won for paying LGBT characters. Like it's not, it is like an actual field. Although we say everyone should have to play anyone, it's very well documented that like coming out in Hollywood can damage your career, that you are not respected enough to actually play your own identity. It's a really difficult, a very difficult one because I do think that the idea that cis people playing trans roles is it's different, and absolutely shouldn't happen, because I think that it feeds into very damaging stereotypes and ideas around like trans women are just men in dresses, and trans men are just like confused lesbians, and like really, really insidious stuff that shouldn't happen. I think we should be definitely in a place now where we acknowledge that they should be respected.
Hannah Witton
How does that work if you're telling like a transition story? Just make up, like prosthetics, makeup, I don't know.
Rowan Ellis
Well, they do prosthetics and makeup the other way around, right, to make -and I think that there's there's always these these arguments that seem to be made on behalf of trans people, of like, it will be too painful. We couldn't possibly ask a trans person to do transition.
Hannah Witton
Wow, okay.
Rowan Ellis
But it's like actually, like, maybe talk to trans people about it because they can make their own decisions. And it's something that absolutely like -
Hannah Witton
Have you seen, oh my god, what's the name of the film? Beautiful woman, favourite woman
Rowan Ellis
Fantastic Woman?
Hannah Witton
Fantastic Woman.
Rowan Ellis
I haven't seen it yet. I really, really, really want to see it.
Hannah Witton
It's so good.
Rowan Ellis
Fantastic things about it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, if that's what it's called.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, there's like an actual trans woman playing -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and it's about -
Rowan Ellis
Wild that that's a new fangled thing to be happening.
Hannah Witton
About her relationship with this man who dies. So he's like an older man. And then his ex wife and his kids, kind of like not being okay with like her being at the funeral, or like being like a part of his life at all like, it's kind of heartwrenching. But then again, it's like another one where it's like, obviously it's it is a beautiful film, but then it is that story where it's like about the struggle.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, I think that we move in these stages. And the frustrating thing is we're always so far ahead of where we are at the moment, mentally, like, I know what representation should be like, and we're having to wait for it to happen. And we're having to go through all of this nonsense, and it's like, can we just skip the nonsense like, can we just get to good representation now.
Hannah Witton
It feels like it's like, it's just so far behind, of like, what reality is.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, and also because films take so many years to make, we also are like skipping ahead really fast. And we have films that have been, you know, originally were written five years ago, who are now making it into the forefront. If we think about what was happening five years ago -
Hannah Witton
Sure.
Rowan Ellis
It's a really tough one. And I think that we kind of have this idea that we have bad, we have no representation, we have actively harmful representation, and we have just bad and lazy representation. And then we start to get stuff where it's like, okay, we're actually gonna cast trans actors in trans roles, but the stories are all going to be quite stereotypical, and we're going to have to feel like we have to go through the struggle stories first. And then finally, we might get to a place where it's like, okay, well let's have a look at what a story looks like that set in, you know, like, a piece of genre cinema that's, you know, a Western that has trans people in. Like, what does that look like? That's coming down the line, and it's just waiting for that to happen.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, oh my God, let's get there please.
Rowan Ellis
So there's a - there's an ontology.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wonder what a superhero action movie would look like with an openly gay character, like imagine?
Rowan Ellis
So, I've heard, I feel like I can say this because we're recording this like before Endgame, and so this isn't like a spoiler because it's speculation. There's been speculation because they've been kind of like teasing the idea of a gay character, or an LGBT character, within the MCU -
Hannah Witton
But are you worried that this is just queerbaiting.
Rowan Ellis
So this is the thing. I am worried about it, but I'm also like the MCU stuff is so big that if they don't deliver on it, then it's gonna be a thing that becomes like a problem. Like it's going to be highlighted a lot more, than it is in kind of niche TV shows, which is where queerbaiting seems to happen at the moment. So I think what will either they're kind of downplaying it cuz it's happening in Endgame as like a throwaway moment, so they're not they're trying not to make a big deal of it because they don't want people to get really excited and then that was like nothing.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Rowan Ellis
And they also can't give any spoilers for Endgame, so if they start, because they've not said anything about Endgame. So if they started being like, also there's a gay character in this film, it would be a bit weird. Or it's not going to happen until phase four, and like it's going to be ages away. And the person that everyone has been saying makes the most sense is Rhodey. So Rhodey is the one that they think might come out, be gay, because he's someone that has been in all the films, kind of in the background capacity, he's very linked to the existing ones, but isn't an actual Avenger, and we know like nothing about his background, or his your personal life, or anything. And so -
Hannah Witton
And then he gets his own film once he comes out
Rowan Ellis
No, lol. It would just be the thing, and I can already, I kind of talked to some people about this on Twitter but I can already see it like it is a thing where he does a throwaway mention for like about his husband, or to get back to so and so like a man's name, and like Tony will do like a kind of incredulous like, is no one going to comment on this, did anyone else know about this? A comedy, like throwaway thing, but sort of drawing attention, but being like -
Hannah Witton
I can see it now.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, I think it's going to be, yeah, like joked about within the context of the movie. So it's not seen as a big serious deal, which I guess is like preferable to it, rather than like they introduced as husband and husband dies within the same film, which is also a pretty big thing that's happened. That happened in the second Independence Day movie as well.
Hannah Witton
Oh man. Do you think we'll get any more Captain Marvel is gay? Or do you think Maria and the child will have been zapped away?
Rowan Ellis
So I don't know if the child will have been because she, in the comics, is a big deal. I'm like, no spoilers, she is a person of interest for sure. But I do think that, because I know that Endgame was filmed before Captain Marvel, so I think that there's, I don't think they knew what was going on with Carol's character and Endgame, to be honest. Like I get the sense that it was kind of like a - Captain Marvel's when we like properly introduce her, but script wise it maybe wasn't finished by the time they're doing Endgame.
Hannah Witton
Oh, Endgame was filmed before, wow.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, I've read a lot of interviews with Brie Larson where she was like, she had she filmed her Endgame stuff and kind of didn't really know what her character was a lot of the time. Which, I mean like when you're trying to make sure that not even your actors know what's happening so they can't spoil anything, it's kind of going to be an interesting performance. But I don't know, going forwards, whether they're going to do something with it, because I think Valkyrie would be the really obvious choice within this film, now that we know that she's in the film, but I don't, their previous coming out scene for her was like a woman coming out of her bedroom, clearly like a post-coital. If you're an adult, and you knew what coming out of someone's bedroom means, and I don't think that fits. Yeah, they cut that from Thor Ragnarok and it that feels very like Thor Ragnarok, but it doesn't really feel very Endgame in terms of that being something that happened.
Hannah Witton
Well, we'll see.
Rowan Ellis
Yeah, in literally like 12 hours.
Hannah Witton
12 hours from recording.
Rowan Ellis
I am taking time off work in the afternoon. I have - I have TOIL saved up, like I have time-in-lieu saved up, so I had to take it, and it's actually I think it's probably expired. I'm really bad at taking like, hours off, because I'm constantly like, so much to do. So I was like, no, I'm just leaving at lunchtime, I'm going to see it so I don't get accidentally spoilered, so I'm really hoping between 12, in the next 12 hours, that it doesn't become an issue. I've like muted every single word that could possibly be -
Hannah Witton
You'll be fine.
Rowan Ellis
No one, I've muted America. If anyone tries to tweet me about America, I'm not gonna see in the next 12 hours, just in case Captain America. I was like trying to catch every little word. I'm gonna know nothing that happens in America for 12 hours.
Hannah Witton
No, I think I think you've taken enough precautions.
Rowan Ellis
I think so.
Hannah Witton
So I wanted to end this on your recommendations of like, one film, and one TV show, that's got some top notch queer rep in it that you think people should watch. And also just go watch Rowan's YouTube videos as well, she's very smart lady.
Rowan Ellis
Thank you. I'm gonna double back on Pose, because it's now available like in the UK and the US.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Rowan Ellis
It's it's just fantastic. It has a brilliant mix of like, joy and family, while not straying away from like, issues and experiences that people have. It's a really good example of, if people say well, if gay and trans people can't die in media, then how will it be interesting? Well, maybe watch Pose. Fantastic. In terms of a film, I'm going to go with, I'm just gonna with a nice chill teenage film.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Rowan Ellis
Princess Cyd. It's on Netflix, it is a very nice film about a bisexual girl who comes to discover her bisexuality, but it isn't some traumatic experience, it's just she goes to her aunt's over the summer, and her and her aunt are both sort of discovering things about themselves, and she just meets a cute girl in a coffee shop. So it's just this like long summer with her aunt, and this cute girl that she likes -
Hannah Witton
Is it kind of like To All The Boys I Loved Before vibes of like rom com?
Rowan Ellis
Not rom com, it's like more indie vibes. It's more sort of like a drama's too intense word for it, you know that kind of just like slow, nice -
Hannah Witton
Easy watching.
Rowan Ellis
Easy watching, but like still intelligent kind of watching at the same time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that.
Rowan Ellis
It's really nice. It's just a nice chill vibe. So if you want to kind of alternate teenage narrative than like a tragic teenage narrative or like a super pop, sort of GBF Love, Simon thing, Princess Cyd would be the way to go.
Hannah Witton
Okay, so Princess Cyd movie, and Pose TV show. Thank you so much, Rowan.
Rowan Ellis
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
For all of your insight.
Rowan Ellis
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk, and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a Global original podcast.
Hannah Witton
[singing] Theme tune, theme tune, it's the theme tune.