Life and Sexuality in a Fat, Black Body with Stephanie Yeboah | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies.
Hello, welcome back to Doing It. I'm really excited to introduce my guest this week, the fantastic Stephanie Yeboah. Steph is an author, journalist, and content creator. Her book, Fattily Ever After: A Black Fat Girl's Guide to Living Life Unapologetically came out last month and it is provocative, heartwarming, vulnerable, and an insightful read. And I'm really grateful to staff for writing it and coming on this podcast and talking with me all about it. In this episode, we talk about the history and difference between the fat acceptance and body positive movements, and how the body positive movement has changed over the years in ways that have made a lot of its early pioneers and champions not feel like it's for them anymore. We chat about dating and Steph is really open and vulnerable about her experiences and feelings of loneliness, which can be hard to admit. And we talk about sexuality in the context of the desexualization of fat black women, but then also the hyper sexualization of black women, especially in the media. Steph breaks down what they are and the racist stereotypes and assumptions we hold about black women's bodies and their sexualities. Just a quick content warning, in this episode, Steph briefly talks about sexual abuse and violence to minors, in relation to R Kelly. We will have timestamps for that in the description and in the show notes on our website. So if you need to, or want to avoid that bit, you can. Look after yourself first. As usual, you can find more information and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over on DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @DoingItPodcast. And without further ado, here is Steph Yeboah.
Steph, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to chat with you.
Stephanie Yeboah
Thank you so much for having me on. Exciting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, congrats on your book, by the way.
Stephanie Yeboah
Thank you so much. Thank you,
Hannah Witton
How has it been? How's the response been? How's it will you know, you're a published author,
Stephanie Yeboah
It's been so overwhelming because I'm so used to kind of my little corner of the internet where I just talk about rubbish, most of the time. And to kind of finally have this out after about like a year of waiting, it's just so bizarre and having people tag me and tag the book. It's just weird that people are reading thoughts from my brain. It's amazing. It's, it's so new to me as well. So I'm kind of just trying to take it in my stride and trying to get used to it.
Hannah Witton
I always find it really weird that, because there's such a long period in between when you finish writing a book, and then when readers start to like, actually get it in their hands and digest it. Because it's such a long period. You're like, what did I say?
Stephanie Yeboah
Exactly. Oh my gosh, I found myself saying that, like so many times, like when people are referencing parts of the book. I'm just like, when did I say that? My goodness.
Hannah Witton
Well, I just read it. I read it in like two days. There's definitely, just so much I feel like I learned from it. Like it's, there's like, you've got your personal experiences in there, which are, you know, you're being so vulnerable in it, and it's so compelling. But then also you're just like throwing all of these like facts at us. I really enjoyed the history stuff, because I'm a big history nerd. And the, like, history of like the fat acceptance movement, and then the body positive movement and how like what they are and how they came about. Would you care to explain to our listeners about that, because I just found that really fascinating.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, sure. So I thought it was important within the book, I didn't want it to be a complete memoir. Just because I feel like my life is still a bit boring, there's not really a lot I can tell.
Hannah Witton
There's still a lot more to go.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, so I didn't want to kind of fill up with that kind of stuff. So I thought it was important to also provide context. It's a relatively new kind of area, and there is still so much research being done in these places. Especially when it comes to talking about larger fat bodies, and fat black bodies, and bodies of colour, and all of these kinds of things. And so I thought it was important to really talk about the history and start off with the history of the body positive movement, because not a lot of people know how it instigated, where it came from. All a lot of people noticed that it kind of just materialised out of out of the ether, and people started using the hashtag. But, you know, for me, I thought it was important to mention it because what we found is that, with body positivity, it seems as if it has a very white gaze, and it's very white, white focus and white centric. And so not a lot of people know that with the movement, it kind of it started in kind of two bouts. So there was a first revival, which was kind of in the 19 1950s, 1960s. But it was a very short wave. And this was an America. And that was quickly kind of, it was quickly eradicated, so to speak, in favour of all of the new body trends that were coming in. So you had Farrah Fawcett and you had, you know, beach bodies and athletic bodies. And then, coming in from the 90s we had like the wave bodies with Kate Moss and everybody idolising her body type?
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, that was when I was growing up. I remember all of those.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, in the 90s when like, everybody wanted to be like, you know, the Naomi Campbell's and the Kate Moss's and like the pivotal supermodels of the day. And it wasn't until sort of 2009/2010 that, for me anyway, I remember being on gosh, this is such a throwback Tumblr, which was all the rage back in the day.
Hannah Witton
I used to love Tumblr.
Stephanie Yeboah
Ah man, it was like the Pinterest of its day, I loved it. And so what I found was I had, I had a page on Tumblr that I dedicated to weight loss and calorie counting and all of these things. Because I was at a point in my life when I, I just really hated myself and I wanted to be as small as possible, and so I've been following a few weight loss accounts on there, an I created my own. And I guess due to the algorithm, I guess I was looking at bodies a lot and things of that nature. I started seeing plus sized bodies on my timeline. And at the time, I was like, why am I seeing these fat bodies, that's not what I'm trying to be like, the algorithm is wrong
Hannah Witton
Maybe this is like a hack, maybe if you are like a body positive, like fat acceptance account on Instagram, maybe like you should start using hashtags that people who are looking for like diet culture, stuff would be following to kind of like infiltrate, be like come, it's better over here, I promise, you'll like yourself.
Stephanie Yeboah
Absolutely, you gotta infiltrate man, got to kind of go deep cover. And so I started seeing more of these posts, and they were predominantly by plus sized, black women in the States. And there were blog posts, there were videos, there were poems, there was photos of just plus sized, black women, living their best life, looking amazing. And so it was quite a quick turnaround, actually, I kind of was balls deep in this movement, so to speak. I started doing a lot of research, I started involving myself in the community, and that's kind of where it started for me. And at the beginning, it was predominantly plus sized, black women. Because, you know, we kind of have this unfortunate intersection where we are seen as the worst of all worlds, in every aspect. So not only being a woman which is seeing, is still seen as less than, but a plus size woman, which you know, being fat is seen as like the lowest of the low in terms of aesthetics. But then also being black, which comes with its own issues with race and microaggressions, and not living up to the standard of beauty, and then also being darker skinned as well which adds colorism to a whole new level. And so we use the body positive movement, which was an offshoot of the fat acceptance movement, to celebrate our bodies and celebrate our curves and our skin colour and, and all of these things. And as it started to gain popularity around 2015/2016, we noticed that the spokesmodels that were being used for these movements began to change. So we started seeing people like Ashley Graham and Iskra Lawrence, and all of these other sort of very beautiful, size 12-14, white women who were gorgeous, but it was also
Hannah Witton
It's like the curvy mid size, isn't it?
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, acceptable fat basically like, it's like you can be fat, but you still have to have the flat stomach and the you know, big bum and hourglass shape. And so any campaign that came out during that time only seem to feature white women, or white passing women and smaller, you know, midi bodies. And they kind of froze out the very bodies that helped it gain prominence in the first place. And a lot of people within the movement started to feel this way and started to debark, depart from it, because it felt like well, you know, we were kind of instrumental in helping this movement reach its prominence, but yet, it's now taken on a world of its own, and it's created this whole new standard of beauty. Whereas if you want to excel, or you want to have visibility within the, within the body positive space, you kind of have to look a certain way, when, you know, we've seen this, you know, normally white, hourglass shape, very beautiful black hair, high cheekbones, whatever the case may be, to kind of have that visibility in that space. And yeah, I think now it's there's a bit of a schism in the movement, I feel like the people that were kind of, who originated it, or who were part of the early movement have kind of just abandoned ship and gone over to the fat acceptance movement, because at least we know, there, nobody will try and take that from us because it's got the word fat in it, and people are still scared of the word fat, and don't want to be associated. We've kind of just found solace in that movement for the time being and kind of left in the body positivity movement to, to, to, yeah
Hannah Witton
How have you navigated that? Especially like online and you know, being like, prominent on on Instagram, and I'm sure a lot of people kind of label you as like a body positive blogger, instagrammer. How do you feel about that?
Stephanie Yeboah
I started disassociating myself with the movement, probably 2018/2017. And so there are people that still call me that. It's an annoying thing, because sometimes when I'm not thinking off the cuff, I will still refer to myself as that, because it was such a huge part of my life, for such a long time. And sometimes there are times when I forget what I label myself as, so I'll just say, I just feel like sometimes it's easier for people to just say body positive, because they know exactly what you're talking about.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz it feels really mainstream now. So there's like, an element of understanding if you use that term, someone goes, Okay, that's what you do.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah. As as, as opposed to something like fat acceptance, which is also a, you know, a moniker that I like to use. However, the issue with that phrase is that when you say fat acceptance, people automatically assume you're promoting obesity, which isn't the case.
Hannah Witton
Oh, people love to say that.
Stephanie Yeboah
And they love it, but absolutely love it. And you know, that's not the case at all. And yeah, so when people do describe me as that I, I'll either like gently or politely say, you know, oh, you know, I don't see myself as a part of that movement, I see myself more as part of the fat acceptance movement. And then we then go into that discussion of, oh, how come you don't, you know, label yourself under bodyposi? And then I go into why I think that is, and yeah, so oftentimes, I don't mind because it's just the language that is synonymous with this movement, and all acts of self love and self acceptance and all of these kinds of things. But yeah, I am trying to try to move away from it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm sorry, on behalf of white women. I don't think I can speak on behalf of all white woman. I totally, I totally get what you're saying because I think I first discovered the body positive movement through white women I was following on Instagram, most likely. Yeah. And I was probably around the time that it was really like, coming up into like, mainstream, I hate using the word mainstream as being synonymous for like, not marginalised. It just feels wrong. But also like brand like brand and, like, corporate consciousness as well, I think, was when I kind of started to discover that terminology. But actually, speaking of terminology, one of the things that I noticed in your book was that you spell woman and women with an X. And this is something that I've been coming across more and more online. And I just was curious to know like, why, what that means to you and why you chose to do that.
Stephanie Yeboah
Basically, with the word women with an X, it is a term that is used predominantly by women within the intersectional feminist movement. And I say intersectional because when we think about feminism, for the most part, especially third wave, third wave feminism, it seems to be that it's mostly been geared towards white women, white, slim, cis, women, while kind of leaving out, you know, trans women, black women, women of colour, plus size women, and the individual struggles that we go through and the privileges that we are unable to have. And so, I thought it would be important, seeing as I'm, you know, talking about predominantly plus sized women, I wanted to use the X to be a lot more inclusive, it includes, you know, transgender, non binary, and other marginalised women, such as black women, as well. And so that was why I decided to use that terminology.
Hannah Witton
I've never, like come across it or thought of it in that way, as kind of like being like this all encompassing thing. Because I think I remember like, when I was at uni, coming across, maybe second wave feminists using women with a Y, instead of an E. And, yeah, in the way that I'd heard about it, it was always like really mocked and laughed at as if like, urgh, these radical feminist, these bra burning feminists who are, like, you know, they don't even want to spell women the way that it's spelt. And so that was my assumption of it with the Y. And then I started seeing it with an X, and I was like, is this the same thing? Like what's happening here? But that's a really great explanation. Thank you.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, no, I think it is the same thing. I think it's just an alternate, it's an alternate, yeah, spelling. But then also, it's a way to kind of take the men out of women to kind of like, take the patriarchy away from it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it also has that nice element to it as well. I wanted to actually just move on a little bit to talk about dating. And we'll come back to a lot of the other stuff. But I just wanted to bring it up, because you wrote a really powerful blog recently about not wanting to, or not like enjoying, hearing about people's like, happy relationships, or they're like positive dating stories. Correct me if I got that wrong. But I would love to ask you like, why did you write that was? Was it like, sparked by something happening? Was there like a straw that broke the camel's back? And like, what was the reaction to that?
Stephanie Yeboah
Oh, gosh, yeah. So yeah, that was a really difficult piece to write actually, because I felt it was me being at my most vulnerable. And I think sometimes when you are at your most vulnerable, that it can display, it can be, you know, good things, or bad things. And for the longest time, I wasn't sure whether what I was feeling was, you know, bitterness, or envy, or jealousy, or whatever the case may be. Because, for me, I don't like to think of myself as having those attributes, and, you know, being envious or bitter over anybody's life. I think a lot of people would not want to kind of think of themselves like that, and I certainly haven't. But I did notice sort of over the past, literally, like 10 years, these really uncomfortable feelings that I had whenever I had friends or people around me who will talk about their relationships, or talk about their dating, or talk about the fact that they're getting married, or moving in, or having kids, and all these things. And as somebody that has been, you know, perpetually single, I just noticed that it really started to hurt. But it wasn't, it wasn't from a place of like, oh that bitch, like, I can't believe she's getting married, or she's going on a date, it was more a case of, you know, because it was a difficult thing to kind of process because on one hand, I'm so happy for these people who are having these amazing lives and sharing their lives with people and starting new lives with people.
But then it was like 90% happy, but then there's this 10% that's just niggling me in my heart, and that that thing that was just not going away was this sense of loss and the sense of when is it going to be my turn? And when will somebody see me as desirable, or want to date me, or want, or see me good enough to date. And I think with me, it's always been a bit of a difficult one because I'm so used to hearing advice from people. Whenever I talk about you know, being single and a lot of the advice they fail to take into account, that I physically look a lot different than them, so it's naturally going to be a lot more difficult. Because being fat is not seen as beauty, it's not a part of the westernised standard of beauty. As much as I think that I am awesome, and cool, and have a great personality, and have a lot to offer, and as confident as I like to think I am, there was a huge chunk of my brain that also acknowledges that it will be very difficult for me to date, or for people to find me attractive, because I'm fat. And because I'm black as well. And because I'm darker skinned black, and, you know, this isn't to say that all fat women go through this. I know some amazing, you know, fat women who are in amazing relationships. But for me, having that perpetual loneliness can, it can take a lot out of you. And, yeah, it just got to a point where anytime I heard of a friend or somebody that I knew, you know, dating, it would hurt because I don't know what that feels like, essentially, you know, I don't know what it feels like to have. Oh, god, this is such a downer. I'm so sorry.
Hannah Witton
I honestly think that I wanted to ask you about it, because I remember reading it and just thinking that it was so powerful, because I think it probably speaks to so many people's experiences, who, like you said, feel scared to say anything, for fear of being called bitter and jealous.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, exactly. And I just wanted to be as, it was quite cathartic to write, and I wanted to be as honest as possible. And you know, just to say, you know, there are people out there who have probably gone on a few dates, and you know, had a couple of boyfriends and still get lonely. But then I feel like there was this section of society who, I feel like I'm a bit included in this, where we literally have no experience whatsoever. So we don't know what it feels like to be liked. We don't really know what it feels like to go on a successful date. We don't know what it feels like to have a crush on somebody or to, you know, stay up late chatting with a guy that you like, like, I'm somebody that I don't have any experience in any of this, that has ever ended up positive. And so, there is a feeling of watching everybody glide by and you are left behind, not being able to experience you know, desire or feeling sexy or love or, you know, all of these things. And so yeah, it was important for me to talk about.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I think it's such a human desire, like, intimacy, connection, all of those things. Do you think at all that any of it is is kind of like I guess socialised because of how much is the society we put relationships on a pedestal, like romantic relationships specifically, and like are obsessed with love? Because then I feel like this is balanced between like, you know, empowered, single, but then also like, hey, no, I'm human and I would like someone to find me attractive, and like me, and some intimacy, please.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, I think it's, it's a difficult one because, like, I guess one of the main things that I get from people, whenever I talk about it is oh, you know, you should be happy being single, and you can do what you want and all of this, but then, again, it comes back to that thing of okay, but you know what it feels like to maybe have been in a relationship, or to have been liked. I don't. I've kind of, you know, some of us have spent our whole lives being alone, and wanting and craving that intimacy. And there isn't anything wrong, I think, with wanting that intimacy, in terms of love. I mean, I don't know, I've never, I've never experienced it. So I don't really know how much to comment on in terms of, you know, the romanticising of it. But I do think for a lot of us growing up, especially me, watching a lot of Disney movies and kind of seeing this ideal kind of boy meets girl and girl might be a bit kooky, and the guy is like really handsome and then they end up together and somehow and, you know, happily ever after kind of thing. I do think that that is still a thing where, you know, we have this kind of idea of what love is supposed to be. And I think, especially when it comes to cultural things as well, there was definitely a strong ideation of what love should be.
So, me coming from a Ghanian background, it has always been heavily kind of hinted and implied that I should be married with kids by now. You know, they kind of encourage you to, to, to get married really, really young. And so, for me, there was a bit of pressure. Because, you know, my grandmother had my mom when she was 20. My mom had me when she was 22. And so, I'm, I'm 31 and like, my grandmother is like, okay, so where are the kids? Where are the children? Where's your husband? Kind of thing, And I'm lucky I'm lucky now that I've grown out of that having that pressure, like I know now that I don't need to kind of subscribe anybody else's timeline as to what I should do. But I think for me, it's more of the intimacy thing that I crave and want, because I don't know what that feels like. And then yeah, it's, it's, it's quite a sad state of affairs.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but I think I think we shy away from a lot of those feelings, and just from talking about and generally so I just admire your openness and vulnerability with that. I wanted to ask you about one thing that came up in your book that I found really interesting, especially as my topic of interest is sex. You talk a lot about like, the the kind of like dichotomy between the de-sexualization of black women, specifically black fat women, and then the hyper-sexualization of black women as well. And I would love for you to speak on that.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah. So, it seems like with, when it comes to sort of existing in a black body and plus sized, black body, we are both hyper-visible and invisible at the same time. So, we are invisible in the sense of and this is, with this is largely down to the ways in which we are portrayed on TV and the characters that we're often portrayed as. So on one hand, we have this de-sexualization, especially for plus size women of a certain age. So do you normally see us portrayed as the help, or maids, or slaves, or servants, we are very matronly, very proper, you know, we, we don't really kind of exist in any body or in any man or woman or non binary, God, non binary is like mind, mind at all, like we we are, it's almost like we exist to kind of be the supporting character, or we exist to support other people. And we don't, we aren't
Hannah Witton
You facilitate other people's growth, rather than have it being about that character at all.
Stephanie Yeboah
Exactly. So we don't get to have our, our own sort of successful character arcs, we sort of live to kind of serve others without being, without having our own desires expressed. And, you know, one big example that I can pull from that is, there's a show in America called Empire. And one of the main characters on the show is played by Gabourey Sidibe, who was also in the movie, Precious, and she is a larger fat plus size woman. And in one of her storylines, she had this boyfriend or a date, who was a conventionally attractive, you know, athletic/slim, black guy, very attractive guy. And I remember being on Twitter as that episode was airing, and there was a scene in which they had a sex scene. And it was, you know, it wasn't funny, it wasn't comedic. It was very passionate. It was really beautiful. And I remember just like screaming when I saw it, because I was like, oh my gosh, finally, we can see a black, plus size woman, woman being the subject of desire and love and lost, without it being fetishizing. And I loved it. But
Hannah Witton
Had you seen anything like that before?
Stephanie Yeboah
That was my first time I'd ever seen anything like that. I'd never seen a plus size, black woman in a sex scene, or a kind of love scene, that was quite, you know, deep and romantic like that. And I remember just being on Twitter and seeing absolutely disgusting comments that a lot of people were making about that scene. So many people, especially loads of black men saying, you know, this is disgusting. We shouldn't have to see this. This is gross. He must like her for her money or something like that. And it just made ,it just made me feel like this isn't normalise. Black, plus size women being seen as desirable is not something that is normalised outside of the fetish scene.
Hannah Witton
As a society, we need some exposure therapy, to fat love basically.
Stephanie Yeboah
Absolutely. And so moving on to the other side of that is the hyper-sexualization, which is where the fetish, fetishization comes in. Black women's bodies are already the subject of intense scrutiny, policing for years, since the ages of slavery, colonisation, all of these things, our bodies have been the subject of scrutiny. And in the book I mentioned, you know, a really popular story of a lady called Sarah Baartman, who was a South African woman. And yeah, she had, she came from this tribe in South Africa that were known for having really big bums and an elongated labia. And she was taken from South Africa and brought to the UK, where she was put in a human zoo and she was made to act very animalistic and feral for the crowd, who would come to see her, they would poke her, they would slap her bum, they would pull at her labia, they would laugh at her, they would plough her with alcohol so that she would be in a dazed state. And they would prostitute out to white men, who would rape her. Unfortunately, she died very early, at the age of about 23. And even in death, she wasn't given the dignity that she deserved. So she was mummified, and her genitals were cut out and they will put on display in a French museum. And they were, her returns were only sorry, her remains were only sent back to South Africa, I think in 2003. And all of this happened in the 17th century. So it just goes to show how dehumanising black bodies have been throughout the course of history. And when you add in being fat on top of that, it creates a whole excess layer of fuckery basically, because,
Hannah Witton
It's like this morbid fascination
Stephanie Yeboah
That's exactly what it is. It is a morbid fascination with being, with with fatness, dehumanising us to the point of just seeing us for our bodies and our fat. But then also, black women, we have been labelled with so many stereotypical adjectives and tropes, such as loud, aggressive, sassy, strong, powerful, intimidating. So for me, like when I go on to, if I'm on a dating site, the only people that seem to be interested in me. or the only men that swipe, was it left or right? One of the, one of the, one of the
Hannah Witton
Right, I think
Stephanie Yeboah
One of the only people that seem to swipe right for me are white guys who have fetishes for plus sized bodies, and black, plus size bodies. And so they will start saying things such as, oh, I heard you guys are really dominant in bed. I heard you guys are really aggressive. Are you a dominatrix? You know, all of these things that they have imposed onto me because of the kinds of things that they watch. And a few years ago, I did a study, it wasn't really a study, it was just like a Google search, really, and I decided to put in fat white woman in Google. And it came up with loads of amazing stories of body positivity, and self love, and how you can increase your confidence and, you know, fat, white women in bikinis, and you know, with themes running through of self love. And then I did fat, black woman, and the only thing that came up was PornHub. And it was just full of
Hannah Witton
Wow
Stephanie Yeboah
It came up with loads of pornographic sites, he came up with BBW, which stands for big beautiful women, which is a porn category on most pornography sites, and it just shows the extent as to how disposable and, and how disposable black bodies are, and how we are dehumanised to the point of just being used as sexual objects, and nothing more.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's, it sounds to me like the Madonna whore complex, but with added, like, fat phobia and racist fuckery basically.
Stephanie Yeboah
Definitely
Hannah Witton
It's, wow, and then also, another thing that I find kind of interesting about the hyper-sexualization as well is that then when, at least from what I've seen, when black women kind of try and reclaim that and take ownership of their sexuality and their sexual agency, everyone freaks out and there's this moral panic.
Stephanie Yeboah
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I mean, we can only see what's happened over the last month with WAP, that is my favourite song, that is an anthem. You know, have people such as you know, Russell Brand, who feel like they can come into the conversation and talk about, think that they have some kind of agency over black women's bodies. And it's, I just think it's, I just think it's ridiculous. Like we should be able to celebrate our sexuality and celebrate our body without it always having to be objectifying. Another really annoying thing about black, about the way in which people see black bodies is that we are, for the most part, always seen as adults, even when we're kids. There is this really weird, we are robbed of having an innocence. So you know, when you're like 12 or 13, black girls, we're not treated the same as a 12 or 13 year old white girl. There is still that purity, there is still that innocence, but at that same age for black girls, we are seen as adults, we're seen as fast, was seen as you know, dressing too sexy. Even with the whole you know, one of the main reasons why it took so long to get R Kelly sent down is because, you know, especially like in the black community as well, people just didn't believe the 15 year old girl, when she said that R Kelly had sex with her, and peed on her, and all of these things. They actually blamed the girl, they blamed the 15 year old girl for getting herself into that position. And blamed her for for, you know, being too grown and acting fast, and all of these kinds of things. And yeah, it's, it's a clusterfuck is what it is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's a real fucking clusterfuck. You mentioned pornography. And then also in your book, you kind of gave a whole bunch of like ethical porn recommendations, which I love that you included. And I was curious if, through ethical porn, you've maybe found more representation of fat black bodies, because I haven't explored the entire list that you have in your book. But I do know that oftentimes, ethical porn is a lot more diverse in terms of body types and sexualities. But in a lot of the ethical porn that I've still seen, it's still very, like mostly small to like, mid size or what what did you say you were like, good fat, or is it acceptable fat?
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah
Hannah Witton
Bodies. I just wondered if you've seen any ethical porn that does display like larger fat black bodies.
Stephanie Yeboah
Do you know what? Not yet. I have seen, I've seen some ethical porn, which has like a good representation of black bodies in general and darker skinned women. But in terms of the fat element of it, there was a site called four chambers, which I've seen a couple of like larger women who have been in scenes that do not completely result, revolve around a fetish kind of storyline, you know, it's it seems to be like a very like, like, passionate, and sweet, and all of these kinds of things. And I think that's what it should be like, fat women deserve to kind of own their sexuality and still have this place to be desired, without it being a kind of, like you said, morbid fascination with with our fatness. And instead it should focus on us as as a whole.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes tonnes tonnes of sense. I do find that ethical porn is like a lot better for diversity, inn general, as well. Right, we've got some questions from our Instagram followers, if you wouldn't mind me firing some of those over. Someone asked, how do you feel about white people using the term body positivity?
Stephanie Yeboah
Do you know what, yo this day, like nowadays, I don't even feel like I don't really know how to feel about it, because it's so out of our grasp now. I don't align myself with that movement anymore. It's, it's, there's no way back to making it what it was before. So if people want to use that term to describe their journey, then I mean, go for it. Because it's not really ours anymore. We don't really have a place in that movement, because it's kind of been taken away, unfortunately. So yeah, I don't really feel like I can say, you know, you shouldn't say that, you should say this. I think for me, it's more a case of recognise where this movement came from, and the people that paved the way for you to be so unapologetically loud about your body online. Like, that's the only thing I would say about it. But if you feel it's the movement that represents you, then go for it.
Hannah Witton
That's a really good point about like, acknowledging, who are the giants whose shoulders you're standing on right now.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, no pun intended.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I know, I just realised. This is an interesting question. And I, yeah, I don't know how I feel about it, but I'd be curious to hear what you have to say. So someone said, do you worry that you can't lose weight? And what they've said is if you decide to, but obviously, we know that you can't just decide to lose weight. That's not really how it works. There might be, you know, a whole plethora of reasons why people's body weights fluctuate over their lifetime. But this person said, Do you worry that you can't lose weight because of your job/platform? Is that something you've ever considered?
Stephanie Yeboah
That's an interesting one. I think for me, if I ever decided to, or wanted to, or you know, had to lose weight, I would do it regardless of what I guess what people think. Because, yeah,
Hannah Witton
Or if it just happened because it's something that we often don't have any control over. Like, you know, other health things. Like I always, my weight has fluctuated with my chronic illness, with contraception, and all that stuff. So it's also just out of our control.
Stephanie Yeboah
And the thing is, I feel like if I was to ever want to loose, like voluntarily, loose weight, it wouldn't be because of any aesthetic reason, it would be literally, you know, if I went to the doctor or something happened and they were like, okay, if you want to have kids, you need to lose like a stone, then I'll be like, okay, cool, fine. I don't, I'm not scared of kind of jeopardising my audience in that way, because I feel like my audience come to me for more than more than that. I talk about a host of different things, and because it's an interesting question, because then you kind of go into this topic of being fat for pay, which is so like, yeah, it's such a treacherous place to kind of lead.
Hannah Witton
I hadn't heard of that.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, I think, you know, how can I say, it's not, it's not me being shady towards other people, but you do sometimes get instances where people have platforms based on how they look. And so in order to keep up appearances, or in order to keep up engagement, or opportunities, they will stay that specific weight because they've got a huge audience. And for me, that's not what I want to do. Like, my body isn't for sale, so to speak. And so if I change my body down the road, at some point, I'll be doing it for me, not for the audience. And I would like to think that my audience would be awesome enough to kind of understand the reasons as to why I was making the decisions that I would be making, but just know that it would never be because of how I look, ever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, I think that's a great response. Somebody asked, what are red flags with body shaming, and how to navigate them. And I'm assuming this just means with like, friends, family, like just people you're interacting with.
Stephanie Yeboah
So one red flag, I think, is the language that the way in which you talk about fatness to people around you, who might be fat. So for instance, one thing that I think a lot of people who are smaller tend to do, if they have a day where they're feeling full or bloated, or they're not fitting into something, they'll say, oh, I feel so fat. And I just think, you know, okay, fat is not a feeling. Because as a fat person, who has always been fat, I can't wake up one day, and eat a piece of celery and say, oh, I feel slim, because I don't know what feeling slim feels like.
Hannah Witton
That, that's one that I've definitely had to unlearn because I used to say that all the time.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah. And I think, you know, it's an interesting one, because people still associate fatness with being undesirable, and being ugly and being, you know, gross. And so, if you're having a day where you're not feeling your best, or you're feeling, you know, full or bloated, or you have put on weight. If you are talking to a friend about this, who might be plus size, the absolute worst thing you can say is, you know, oh, I feel so fat, I can't believe I'm putting on all this weight. Because what you're essentially saying to your friend is, urgh, I'm beginning to look more like you and it's disgusting, I think I look so gross. And you know, fat people, we have to wake up and be told, and be shown that we are the least desirable, and we're not beautiful. And so to kind of have that from friends and family members, just makes it even worse.
Hannah Witton
How do you navigate that? What would be like your advice to someone, of like what to say to a friend, if they were in that situation where a slimmer friend said something like that
Stephanie Yeboah
I think it's just a case of laying down boundaries, and just telling your friend, look, I know how much you don't, sometimes you might have to, like guilt them a little bit and say, like, Look, I know that you don't want to look like me, like looking like me is the worst thing in your head. But please, I, I'm - while I'm on my own journey to self love, I would be really, you know, I would be happy if you didn't use such you know, negative language about your weight, in front of me. We also have to stop equating fat with ugly. Fat is not the opposite of healthy. Fat is not the opposite of ugly. You can be healthy and fat, shock horror. You can also be very beautiful and fat. And so it's just this case of, you know, changing our language, changing our tone, not commenting when somebody puts on weight because you don't know why they've put on weight. You don't know why somebody has lost weight. It's nobody's place to comment on somebody's body change. If you have a fat friend who has lost weight, do not say oh, you look really good. Because then what you're saying is, again, fat equals ugly, or equals undesirable, or equals disgusting. Somebody's worth does not increase because they lose weight. And that's something that I think as a society we all need to unlearn.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think that's some really great advice because I do think in this like growing up in a fatphobic society as well, it's such a reflex to say some of those things. Erm, so, you know, like, catch yourself, like, try and try and you know, you might still think it, but like stop yourself from saying it, and then hopefully we can then start unravelling those thoughts as well. But Steph, thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful chat. I would highly recommend people buy your book, read your book, there is obviously so much more in there, that we didn't get to cover in this podcast episode. But I just wanted to also say that I thought that the chapter about fatness and like medical health scenarios. I mean, a lot of those like personal stories that people sent in like, oh, they were heavy and broke my heart a bit.
Stephanie Yeboah
Yeah, that was a difficult chapter.
Hannah Witton
It's a it's a really powerful book, so congrats. And listeners definitely check it out. Steph, where can people find you online?
Stephanie Yeboah
Oh, thank you so much. So you can find me on my blog, which is www.stephanieyeboah.com. You can find me taking awesome bikini pictures on instagram.com @StephanieYeboah. And then you can find me on Twitter @StephanieYeboah where I'm arguing with fatphobics and racists.
Hannah Witton
I love that you have like different platforms for different functions. Keep it all compartmentalise. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much again, and thank you all for listening. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast