The Swinger Lifestyle and Parties with Shani and Tony Hart | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi all, welcome back to Doing It. I know we had a bit of a break. I was doing the getting married and having a honeymoon thing. And I had a lovely break from work, from London, from social media. How are you? I hope you're doing well. As you may or may not know, although I post the occasional photo of my partner Dan on Instagram, he is not on social media at all, and likes his privacy that way. However, there is one little project we're doing together, which is a Patreon only podcast. They are short-ish, like 20 minutes or so, unedited episodes of us chatting about a topic suggested by my Patreons. There's no schedule, we just do them as and when we please, but it's a lot of fun. And if you're listening to this, then maybe that would be something you're interested in. Also on my Patreon, you can get early and ad free episodes of this podcast. That's right. Did you not know. You can get episodes a day early, in a private RSS feed, and also no ads. Ad's are one of the main ways I financially support the creation of this podcast, but Patreon is the other. So thank you so much to my Patrons. I really appreciate you.
Alright, enough updates and self promo, this week is full of curiosity and laughs. I am joined by Shani and Tony Hart, who are a married couple, they are swingers, and they own two erotic boutiques called Harts Desires, h a r t. In this episode we talk about swinging, obviously, what it is, rules and boundaries Shani and Tony have, and how to find your own, how to find fellow swingers parties and events, the importance of communication. We also talk about the swinging scene in relation to feminist and anti racist spaces, and the segregation they've witnessed in the swinging community. And we chat about running a business together, conflicts and arguments in relationships, and therapy. So much stuff. I hope you enjoy this episode. As usual, you can find links to everything we mentioned in the show notes on our website, DoingItPodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on social media, we're @DoingItPodcast Instagram and Twitter. Thanks for listening. And here's Shani and Tony. So hello, welcome the Harts. How are you?
Shani Hart
I'm doing great. Hey, thanks for having us.
Hannah Witton
I'm so excited to chat with you. I want to say we met, but like I met you because you both were speaking on a panel for a SAR which is a, oh my God I'm gonna forget this, sexual attitudes reassessment about non monogamy, and I was just so taken by you two. I thought you were absolutely amazing and just, I just found myself smiling through like everything that you were saying. And I thought our listeners would absolutely love to hear your stories and your perspective on swinging. And actually, we got a lot of questions on Instagram, and there was a few that were like, what is swinging? So I feel like that's a good place to start.
Shani Hart
Oh, that's a good question. You want to take that Tony?
Tony Hart
Yeah, sure, sure, I can take it. Well, I'm not gonna gonna give them medical terms.
Shani Hart
You can give them your definition
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Tony Hart
Erm, a way for a couple to explore themselves, sexually, openly, with other couples or another person.
Shani Hart
I think that's a good definition. I think that's good, because everyone takes it and takes their own way of doing swinging, but I think that's a good blanket definition. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. How would you see it being different, or similar, to other forms of non monogamy.
Shani Hart
For me, it's very different from like, people to have open relationships or people in poly relationships because for me swinging, and for a lot of people I know, swinging is purely physical. A lot us are like, this is physical, whereas some of these other dynamics have more emotional connections to the other people, and so on like that where it's just just sex.
Hannah Witton
Just sex. Love that. So how did you two meet? And how did you get into swinging?
Shani Hart
So we met online. I, we were on Plenty of Fish. Do they have Plenty of Fish over there
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah we do
Shani Hart
Okay. My friends now can never believe that we met on Plenty of Fish because it's like a meat market.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like Plenty of Fish is the one that gets like a bad rap as well.
Tony Hart
Yes
Shani Hart
I think it does. But we, so I was bored one night, like one o'clock in the morning, and usually I just you know, if you're, if you're a person that identifies as a woman, and you're on these sites, and you're trying to get, you know, guys attention, usually you get a lot of inboxes. So I really didn't have to send out too many messages. Usually your inbox is full of, you know, creeps and maybe some potentials, but so I saw his, when I was scrolling through all of the potential candidates, I saw him, his picture on there. And I was like, Oh, he's kind of cute. And when I looked a little closer, he was standing next to some woman and had cropped her out, but her whole, like left boob within the picture with him. And I sent him a message, and I'm like, excuse me sir, there is a boob in your picture like, take a new picture. And he wrote back, he thought it was funny. And we just, we corresponded online, like maybe one more day. And then we started talking the next day, I think we met in person a couple days after that, it was it was really fast. And then when we first started going out on dates and talking, we realised that we both were already in the swinging lifestyle and had, you know, had been into it. So it made it really easy for us to go together, because we had already started. It's not like one person had to, you know, get the courage up to ask, you know, we were already in it together.
Hannah Witton
So I guess it was quite lucky. It was
Shani Hart
It was, I'm surprised I've never seen him in the parties. I would've come over to talk to you. If I saw you at the party.
Hannah Witton
Well, hopefully you don't find out that you were actually at some parties together, because then be like, oops, well, I guess I didn't,
Shani Hart
I know right
Hannah Witton
I'm interested then, because if you were in like the swinging lifestyle separately, were you doing that as single individuals or with previous partners.
Shani Hart
I was actually in it with my previous husband, which it kind of was not, not the whole downfall of the relationship, he was a creep, but part of it was that he, he actually just did swinging because I wanted to. He really didn't want to. And so that didn't, that aspect didn't really work out. And I didn't want to be in a relationship where I wasn't able to, you know, have sex with other people when I wanted to, or when we wanted to. Tony was a man whore. He went to the party single.
Tony Hart
Yeah, I was a single male. And I travelled all over the United States to go to different events and stuff like that
Shani Hart
Just your dick flapping all around, all of the states
Hannah Witton
Like a, like a professional swinger.
Shani Hart
That's what it sounds like
Tony Hart
Yeah it was a whole lot of fun, whole lot of fun
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice. And so, was that something that came up naturally in in conversation? Were either of you worried at the beginning about bringing it up? Or did it just kind of happen?
Tony Hart
I'm the one who brought it up. And yes, I was a little nervous. But the part that, I guess what I was trying to prevent, was the opportunity of any type of infidelity. So that was my reason for bringing it up. And I wanted to at least let her know that if she did desire to have another partner, that I will be okay with it, as long as I can watch.
Hannah Witton
Right
Shani Hart
Was this to help your infidelity, also? Or were you just talking about my infidelity?
Tony Hart
Really, it really, what I, when I was thinking about it, and setting it up and trying to come up with a conversation to bring the conversation to you, it was more so how do I bring it up in a way to tell her that I was afraid that I was worried if a woman would cheat on me, my wife would cheat on me. So I was like, Well, how can I say this? Where you don't have to cheat on me, we can be, we can be open about this, and still have fun to have this great marriage. It will be one less thing that we have to worry about.
Hannah Witton
I think one of the failings that maybe a lot of couples kind of potentially go through is not acknowledging that you may desire other people, whether or not you want to act on it, but, you know, for a lot of people desire at least isn't like reserved for one person forever.
Shani Hart
Right. And that's what I think, you know, it's in society were instilled in you know, you're supposed to be with this one person forever, your soulmate, your love of your life, and you're supposed to, isn't it in the vows? What's the line in the vows?
Hannah Witton
I, like recently got married and I found it very interesting in what the registrar said. She said in the vows, it was like, you'll do all of these things for the rest of your married life together. And I was like, Oh, interesting. Not till death do you part, just for the rest of the relationship. I was like, Oh, I didn't know that that was gonna be the case. I was like, huh, interesting.
Shani Hart
That is an interesting way to phrase it. I know ours was like, til death do you part, and like you better be with this person forever which, for some people that makes sense to them. It seems like a lot more people I know, it doesn't make sense for. And it's funny because when, people think that because we are a couple that is in the swinger lifestyle, that we are just, you know, having sex with everybody and going to swinger parties all the time. And it's really funny that when you take away the tabooness of something, you don't always have to do it. You know, I think it's, you know, it's exciting, it's taboo, you have to sneak around, and everything like that, but if someone said, okay, you can have sex with somebody, you know, when you want to, then it's like, I don't even know if this is as much fun anymore.
Hannah Witton
Your like, oh, I need to think about that.
Shani Hart
Yeah, I think it takes away the tabooness of having to be with somebody and we, when's the last time we went to a swinger party? It's like a year ago, well, let me COVID mess up a lot of things. But before that, it had been a while, like, last summer, I taught a few classes at this swingers convention, this really big swingers convention, Naughty in N'awlins. It was really fun. It was like, I mean, hundreds of people, hundreds of different couples. And I had taught three different workshops while I was there, and of course, once my workshops is over, it's time to go play. So we went and you know, met some couples and that was fun, but that was probably the last time.
Tony Hart
Yep, that was the last time. So yeah, over, over a year now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's such a good point that like when it's all on the table, and you're open about it, and you kind of like have these conversations, then suddenly, I guess, yeah, you kind of like think about it, and you're like, okay, like if I want to, I guess, but you know, not necessary.
Shani Hart
Exactly. It's like I only want Chick-fil-A on Sunday. It's only because I can't have it, it's closed on Sunday's. I think we want this stuff that we can't have and then, you know, Chick-fil-A was, they change their their store hours and they were open on Sunday, I wouldn't even think about it
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so true, so true. And that kind of kind of links to a question that we got on Instagram, actually. Someone asked, does swinging have to come in party form or can it be casual meetups? And they've also said without alcohol, which I think is interesting, like are there like more smaller, non alcohol, non party, swinger like situations or swinger events?
Tony Hart
The answer to that is yes. 100%. Yes,
Shani Hart
Well he doesn't even drink.
Tony Hart
I don't drink at all, so yes, but obviously, I do, even as a single male, I had a rule that if a woman was too overly, like intoxicated, I wouldn't have sex at all like so it had to be, maybe they will have a sip or something like that, maybe a glass of wine, but anything pretty much over about two glasses of wine I really tried to stay away from it because I wanted I wanted more consent. I want them to be open to anything that we, that we were doing. I wanted to make sure that you know that I had consent to do it. Yeah.
Shani Hart
You can set up your swinging arrangements any way you want to. There's a couple of times that it's been just us and another couple. I remember one time the couple, I wanted to meet them first. I need to be physically attracted to the people, he don't care., he'll have sex with anybody. If you got a hole, and you identify as a woman, he don't care, he's having sex. For me, I want to see the people. So he had, how did you meet this couple? They came into our store and the husband and him started talking and they wanted us to come to this house, you know, and play with them. And I'm like, can we go somewhere first and meet so I can see them and talk to them and everything like that. But they didn't, they didn't want to. They don't want to meet me, they just want to jump off. But yeah, so that that would have been an instance where it was just us and another couple, there was no party. It was something that we arranged ourselves.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So it's just super flexible and I guess it, yeah, depends on all the different interactions. Erm, so you mentioned your shop, please talk about Harts Desires, what is it and how is running a business together?
Shani Hart
Oh Lord. So we have different, very different views of how the business should be ran. Well, he started the company before we met. So when we first started dating, that's why I always thought he was freaky and everything, because he owned the sex toy store. So we, when I came into the picture, I kind of wanted to rebrand everything about it. Like I wanted to change the logo, change the colours, I wanted to make it an experience, make it more somewhere that women felt super comfortable, I wanted to be posh, and you know, have a real chic vibe to it. And when you want to have the experience of providing these experiences for people, it costs a little bit more. He is cheap, and let me just say, he's cheap.
Tony Hart
I'm frugal
Shani Hart
You're frugal, cheap. So we argue a lot on, he's the business person. He does our books and handles all the money, financials, I like the fun thing, getting new products and decorating, and all that kind of stuff. So we
Hannah Witton
Kind of like the brand management side of it
Shani Hart
Yes, I'm really big on how I want people to walk in the door and be like, whoo, this is nice.
Hannah Witton
Make it a destination.
Shani Hart
Yes, and he doesn't care. He's like, just put the stuff on the wall so people can buy it. So it is hard because sometimes it gets in the way of our actual marriage, because I hold on to grudges. I'm very petty, a petty, petty, petty person. If I haven't spoke to a person for five years, I don't even remember why I don't like them, but I'm petty and I know I don't like them, so I'm not talking to them. So even though we might be arguing about something at work, at the store, when we get home, he's like, okay, what do you want to do? You want to watch TV? What's for dinner? And I'm like, get away from me, like I'm still mad at him because of the stuff that went on to the store. So that that's my fault and something that I'm trying to work on, because it does get in the way.
Hannah Witton
So Tony, you're better at compartmentalising?
Hannah Witton
Yes, I can let things go really, really quick. So
Shani Hart
and that burns me up even more
Tony Hart
I'm like, on the the next, lets move on, I have no problem with that
Hannah Witton
But you know it, and you're talking about it, you know, I feel like you know, when you don't mention these things, and it just like burns up this resentment, and then it all just comes like overflowing at some point. At some point, it will,
Shani Hart
Yes. Like we both know our faults and a lot of times in the instance where right at the moment where things going on you forget all the things that you you know, because I've already given myself tonnes of talk, okay, we're going to do this, we're going to table the discussion, we're going to come back to all the things. Because we went to therapy at one point, to try to figure out how to communicate better, how to argue, and everything. And so the things that the therapist taught me in the moment that you're having to fight, like you don't really think of those things. I try to slow down, take my time, watch what I'm going to say cuz you know, you spit out all these words, and my tongue is lethal. I say mean things and you can't take that stuff back. And that stuff just chips away at your relationship little by little. So I'm really, I really try to practice what I preach to other couples.
Hannah Witton
And that's really cool that you like open about the fact that you've gone to therapy as well. I feel like I don't really hear many couples speaking about that
ToniyHart
Oh, it's a must. It's a 100% must. I think every couples should go and, because it does, it makes it makes things so much easier. Like I remember the first, the first class we took in a group setting, a college group setting, a therapy session. And the therapists at the very beginning was like, let you know that, hey, if you're the person that think that, you know, the reason you're coming to these sessions is because you want to never argue again, you know, this is not for you. I promise you that's not going to happen. I was like, oh, he, you know, he's talking to me because I was trying to come here so that we would never argue, The thing is, we learn like not that, never to argue, but just again, like Shani said, argue with a little more respect, you know, without actually trying to cut the person you
Shani Hart
and get to solve it at the end
Tony Hart
and yeah actually solve the problem
Shani Hart
And be like why was this said? Why am I upset? What can we do differently? And you know, in the future? So, yeah
Hannah Witton
Yes, something that I learned recently that I don't know just really, really stuck with me was that in, in healthy relationships, conflict is a opportunity for growth rather than, you know, when, like you said, you tear each other down. Yeah. And I really loved that. I was like, yes, that makes so much sense to me.
Shani Hart
Yeah, I think a lot of people really learned that, over this time, you know, be in quarantine with your partner, in the house all the time. I think a lot of couples learned a lot about each other. And you know, a lot of flaws come out because you don't have distractions that you usually have in a relationship, all the work, and friends, and family, and this and that, you didn't have any those distractions, and you had to concentrate on your partner. And then that some of my friends that I talked to, they was like, you know what, I don't even like them no more. I'm like, okay. But yeah, anytime there's conflict, it brings a lot of stuff up and, you know, talk with it and hopefully you get closer, but sometimes you just don't.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to chat about your like swinging rules and boundaries, if you have any. Tony, you mentioned at the beginning about you're like, okay, if Shani has sex with the people, as long as you can watch that. Are there any other rules that you have?
Tony Hart
Yes. Yes, we have a lot. But
Shani Hart
We had a brainstorm, come up with them together. It was it was fun, actually.
Hannah Witton
Oh I love that
Tony Hart
So yes, the reason that I say that I want to watch is, I do get a kick out of being a voyeur but the main reason is just for protection, I want to make sure she's safe. If she decides that she wants to stop, or things doesn't seem to be going in the right direction, maybe if she's has a partner that identifies as a male, and there, he wants to probably try unprotected sex and stuff like that. So I want to be around to be able
Shani Hart
Yeah, like that one guy tried to keep going in my butt on the sly, like you can't do that.
Hannah Witton
You've got a witness to that.
Tony Hart
So that. I am not allowed to kiss any of my sexual partners. We have a like a rule, it's craz, I can't kiss them. But we, I can perform oral sex on them.
Shani Hart
Because it's different. There's something about seeing, like when people kiss, like they shut their eyes and they do all the things. No one can see me right now but I'm moving my head all around.
Hannah Witton
I'm picturing it.
Shani Hart
To me that is super intimate. It's super intimate and just seeing, I saw him kiss somebody once and that was like, no, no, that's not. So a lot of times like, you might even come up with your rules as a couple, and then as things go on, and you experience new things, you might have to you know, reevaluate the rules, add new rules, maybe some rules you don't really care about any more. I don't think there's any rules that we got rid of, I think we just been adding.
Hannah Witton
I guess you can't come up with rules for things that you don't know exist, or you don't know, you're going to have a certain reaction to.
Tony Hart
Correct and at least when that happens, one of the, the first thing is if, that any couple should automatically put in as at least as one of their first rules is if the part, if I stopped the session, so if a person stops the session, basically, you know, even if you're right at that point where you're about to have an orgasm, you must get up.
Shani Hart
Exactly
Shani Hart
Yeah.
Tony Hart
Yeah, something I'm not feeling great about soo I need, and I need for you to stop. So because you know, it could be something internal inside of me that I'm not feeling right about, and I need my partner to stop. So if I need for her to stop, I can tap her like, hey, we need to stop this session. Let's go for a walk, let's grab a drink.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I was going to ask.
Shani Hart
Or a word.
Tony Hart
Yeah, we do have we do have our safe word, our safe word is charcoal. So that saves us a lot of trouble.
Shani Hart
I don't even know how we came up with that. How did charcoal even come up?
Tony Hart
We were trying to figure out so, I know we were trying to figure out a word that, as soon as you heard it, it will be so awkward in any setting that immediately the other person will recognise that something's wrong and I need to focus on my partner.
Shani Hart
What if we was at swinging cookout? I know, I think I say charcoal more than more than he does, because like I said earlier, he has sex with anybody and sometimes he'll be talking to a couple and I'll just be like, charcoal, and that means, yeah, I'm not into it
Hannah Witton
I think that's so important what you said about if one of you needs to tap out, and if one of you needs to stop, and it's not into it that like, the number one rule is that that wish gets respected. Because ultimately, I guess like, if you are a swinging couple, you are a team. And you know, you're going into it together.
Shani Hart
Yeah, because it's, you do not want to be at the swinger party, swinger club, swinger event, and you are the couple that's arguing in front of everybody. That is the worst.
Hannah Witton
Have you witnessed much of that?
Tony Hart
Yes
Shani Hart
Yes, and it is so embarrassing, like, a lot of times in these different areas, the swinger community, you know, everyone knows everybody or familiar with at least, especially now with all these different online groups and you know, things like that. And so you don't want to have the name of the couple that's arguing, like you won't get invited. No, I wouldn't feel, if I saw a couple arguing, I would never play with them ever again in life. They might have just had a bad night, but I still have like, I don't want that drama.
Hannah Witton
Stay away from the drama. We've got a lot of questions on our Instagram. But before I get into them, I wanted just to ask, what's your favourite thing about swinging?
Shani Hart
Well, for me, my favourite thing is having sex with girls.
Hannah Witton
Fait enough
Shani Hart
I don't have to do too much work. It's hard, like if you're a cis head, cis head women woman, and you are, you present as a female, sometimes it's hard. I don't have a good gaydar for women like figuring out you know, who is into women, that's pretty hard. But at the swingers events, you know, if I see some a woman flirting with me, I don't have to really figure it out, are they flirting with me? or maybe not. Or maybe they, you know, a woman might say, oh, I like your lingerie outfit, and this is like no, she really wants to have sex. But in normal times, I'd be walking through the mall, and somebody might say, Oh, I really liked that dress you have one, I'm like, are they flirting with me? I like, erm, having no strings attached sex with other women. That's what I like the best. What do you like the best?
Tony Hart
I like to have sex with with women, while their partner watchers. Yeah, that is such a turn on to me, like for them to be able to see basically how she's going to interact with me, the way she moves, she might do something different. And the fact that it's turning them on and she's turned on that actually, to see them. Like it's such a this realm of positive sexuality. It turns me on even more, so I'll probably say that that would be it for me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Shani Hart
Oh okay
Hannah Witton
Was that, was that new information for you?
Shani Hart
I, I know, I thought that he liked seeing me have sex with other people.
Toni Hart
I do, I do
Shani Hart
I mean, I thought that was your number one. I didn't know that was your number one. See, learning stuff right now, live and in time.
Hannah Witton
So somebody asked, how do you meet other swingers? Is there a swinger's Tinder?
Tony Hart
Yes. There are different swinging websites, social media groups. First, the first thing is to go in, to basically go online and look for a swinging club near you. Start there
Hannah Witton
Yeah, start local.
Tony Hart
Yeah start local
Shani Hart
But somebody might want to start online. I think, I think if I was totally brand new, I don't think I will start in person first. I think I will start online and looking up stuff like go to swinglifestyle.com and I think I would personally like to meet more couples online, talk to them first, get more comfortable and then go out in person but everybody's different. So we've got two different views of how to get into it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Shani Hart
Yeah, depends on what's comfortable for that person.
Hannah Witton
You know, maybe go into a sex shop and see if the couple running it would be down.
Shani Hart
That, that's how all this started, but they didn't they didn't.
Tony Hart
You know what,
Shani Hart
But you started sending them videos
Tony Hart
We, erm, okay that that's rare for us. So we probably tend not to play with couples that come into the store. We're probably more so focused on helping, and making sure that they are getting the things that they need. So our number one focus is is more so how can we help.
Shani Hart
We've been propositioned a few times. A couple people have sent us messages on Instagram, or Facebook and say, hey, I saw that you guys are down to play with other couples. It really, it hasn't been another couple that's propositioned us, it's just been single women. But I don't know if they like me, you're like you?
Hannah Witton
Oh, why can't they like the both of you?
Shani Hart
Or both, yes. But I hope that they'd like me best.
Hannah Witton
This question is a slight change of tone but I think it's a it's a really interesting and important one. Someone said, I find it hard to find spaces that are aware of feminist/anti racist issues. Any suggestions? Is this something that you've come across?
Tony Hart
So in our area, I can sit there and tell you that, um, it's basically, what's the word, separation. So it's different communities, you know, you can be able to find the right community. First, it may start off in the beginning, very difficult. But like we have, I know, that in our area, there are groups that are strictly women only. So basically, just, you know, those events are strictly for the ladies. They have events that are strictly for, you know, if you're queer male, is strictly for those, you have events and spaces strictly for that. If you are considered like pansexual, bisexual, there are spaces for that. So it but it may take you a while to search for them, but
Shani Hart
I never found them, let me just say I've never found any, I've never been to any events that was feminist, or I've never been the one
Tony Hart
You probably, you haven't been looking in a way that I have like, I mean,
Shani Hart
Usually with swinger parties, they're very like meat market market.
Tony Hart
That's because those are the ones that are out in the open. But a lot of a lot of the ones that are specifically for trying to advertise to basically certain sexual preferences but they're very lowkey.
Shani Hart
Right but what I'm saying is they're more a couple can go. It doesn't have to be necessarily just a lesbian swing party. Like me and you were a couple and we want to go to a swingers party that supports women having their pleasure, because a lot of swinger parties is more about the guys, then, than they are about the women, most of the swinger parties that we go to, very much so heterosexual, except for women having sex with women, but I think in guy's eyes, that's not gay.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah
Shani Hart
But there's never any guy on guy play.
Tony Hart
They exist.
Shani Hart
They exist, but I'm talking about at the stereotypical one that couples go to, well, in our world, we can't talk about
Tony Hart
Okay, I'm telling you, you're they are here. It's just that you're overlooking them, like, you know, there are certain terminology and things that you have to look for in order to understand. You may say certain things like, you know, if you're looking on certain sites, certain times that that most your average person may overlook, that may be the term that works to let people know, like, hey, this is for you, because you're the only one that will understand it when they look at it.
Hannah Witton
There might be some terms that you need to search in order to like find the one that would fit your preferences and your identity.
Shani Hart
I know I went to one party when at when I was at school, and I see I took my classes in Portland, I went to one swingers party, some, one of my classmates found one and so we all went and it was the worst time I had ever had in my whole entire life. I walked in, and I was the only black person. And so, and I had on this really cute outfit had my butt out and was walking around, and I felt like, people were coming up to me and I was like, I couldn't get past if they were coming up to me, you know, because they were fetishizing being with a black woman, or they just thought I was attractive or what the case may be. I couldn't figure it out. I felt so uncomfortable. I stayed for maybe 10 minutes and then I call it Uber and left by myself. The rest of my classmates stayed. But I was just like a fish out of water. I didn't like it at all. So it's it's definitely trial and error. Finding the right circles to be in, the right parties to go to, the right clubs to go to. You just have to, but if you don't go you won't know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And maybe if you kind of like immerse yourself more in the community, meet some good eggs and get recommendations.
Shani Hart
Yes, word of mouth is very, very helpful in a swing community
Hannah Witton
I can imagine.
Tony Hart
Just because you attend an event, doesn't mean you have to participate. Sometimes you can go to an event and just be there, just for the conversation. And that, you know, like with that being the case for you being there, you'll end up finding information because you'll be able to bounce around and talk to people and say, hey, well, this is what I'm looking for this, this and this, and it'll be tonnes of people that'll be willing to help you because, you know, they already have found their sexual role, their way of having their freedom, they found their place. So they're very open to helping other people find their place. So that way you can be sexually open and really enjoy in your in your way.
Hannah Witton
And I remember you, you both saying this on the panel discussion that you did for for IC, about how in your community, it's mostly black people, and then there might be like another like, white swingers community, but they're just very separate. And I found that really interesting. But also like, I'm not surprised, but also saddened by that, I guess.
Shani Hart
Yeah, it's, it's just it's very separate. I think clubs in general, where we live that, are very separate. Like, there's the black clubs, there's the white clubs, there's hispanic clubs, There's events.
Tony Hart
Yeah, it could be the same club, but certain nights you might see certain people, certain race might go there. It'll be just a Hispanic night, it'll be a white night, it'll be a black night. It just go back and forth.
Shani Hart
I don't know how, I think you would have to live in a more diverse, maybe you lived in a more diverse area where people were together more, maybe the swinger club will reflect your community maybe? You think?
Tony Hart
That plays a part, or just feeling free, feel free enough to go to those other, those other nights, those other events. Like for me, I have, I don't discriminate of any race. I love women of all shapes, sizes, and colours. I really don't care. I like her because of her. And so you know, I am definitely because of that, because of my attraction towards them, I am more open to try it out. I don't mind being that, what Shani says she was uncomfortable in that environment, I am more welcoming it
Shani Hart
It's because you're a man whore. It's different being a woman in that position and being a guy in that position?
Tony Hart
I think no. I think personally I have a buddy who feels uncomfortable as well. So no, it's it's really based on the person. Me, I'm comfortable in any environment, if you want to, I'm here.
Shani Hart
I thought this was gonna be, that was gonna be my first night having sex with somebody of another race. I've never had sex with a non black person, ever. And so I thought I was gonna pop my cherry.
Hannah Witton
But that wasn't meant to be that night, though.
Shani Hart
Not, not that night. It's still could be, I do I want to because you know, you hear different stereotypes about different races and everything. And stereotypes are horrible. But I just want to see, I want to see
Hannah Witton
This next question is, I think it's quite a funny one because it kind of sums up I guess what, like, my preconceptions and like misconceptions about swinging were, and I guess the narrative that we're all told, which is is it just for bored middle aged people.
Shani Hart
When when I started swinging, it was in my late 20s, and I got to it as a unicorn.
Hannah Witton
Oh, explain what a unicorn is
Shani Hart
So a unicorn is a bisexual woman and you get courted by couples basically to join them. And I had really, I had a lot of fun being a unicorn because a lot of times you get pampered. You might get taken on trips with the couples, and and then they buy you a nice presents and being a unicorn is fun. So I got into swinging that way, by a couple that I was having sex with took me to a party, and I couldn't have sex with anybody else while I was there, just them, but when I was looing around, I was like, ooh, I like this. So I started going again, with with a different partner, and I had a good time, but that's how I got into it, being a unicorn.
Tony Hart
For me, it was my high school girlfriend. So I was, I was dating a older woman and he was she considered herself to be bisexual. So you know, like, like the song says my girl got a girlfriend. That was my life. Um, and that started it off and basically where we were able to, you know, have sexual freedom with each other. And then from there, um, once I made it out of high school, we started to participate in different events and going to different parties that we got invited to. And
Shani Hart
So you were corrupted by older women.
Hannah Witton
That's basically it's not just for bored middle aged people.
Tony Hart
No. There are people of all ages I'll be there are some in their early 20s, you'll see people all the way up, I think we met a couple that we had an awesome conversation with in their 70's.
Shani Hart
Oh yeah, and they were they were cool and they was rich. Remember they had a boat, and they had a mansion, and they were talking about how they would have all these wild parties. And I was like, damn, we need to go out and hang with them. But they were like, in their like you said, in their 70's and had been doing it for years and years.
Tony Hart
And one of the things that they would say was, they wish their own kids would be swingers, because it will fix a lot of things in their relationships.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I love that
Tony Hart
Yeah, that they can sit there and see imperfections in their own children's marriages, and know that oh, wow, you guys will be more open to this, you know, and their kids can never find out, because, that their parents are swingers, and they hate if they're hiding. Still, to this day, they hide it from their kids. But, you know, when they can sit there and see certain things like certain arguments and disagreements that their children are having with their spouse, it's like, oh, wow, that could be prevented if you guys were a little more open in certain areas.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Shani Hart
It helps you be free with your desires and helps you, you know, you have these conversations about what's going to make you happy, what's going to make each other happy. And so I think it really is good for relationships, it's not for everybody. But you know, I think it's really good for happiness in general, sexual happiness, like I wouldn't expect my partner to be the be all end all in my sexual gratification for the rest of my life. Like, I don't think you have. Don't look at me like that, you don't have to be that for me and I'm glad that I have the option of finding with very, very small parts that you don't that you don't provide, that I can get that from other people.
Tony Hart
No, I'm okay with that.
Hannah Witton
I think you're totally right in that it isn't for everyone, but what is for everyone is having the those conversations and like not assuming the other person's sexuality and not assuming that the other person like, has the same, like sexuality as you especially like, say if you're somebody who could never imagine themselves being in an open relationship, or sleeping with somebody else, other than your partner, don't assume that about your partner, like have that conversation be like, do you fancy other people? Like, is that a thing?
Shani Hart
And it's funny that even, you know, your sexuality, swinging, relationship dynamics, you know, sex toys, all these different things, if people just had these conversation, they will be very surprised of what their partners want to do, but it just never came up and maybe they don't know how to breach the, the subject. And it's like you said, having these conversations, it's going to be so important to the happiness in your marriage, or your relationship in general.
Tony Hart
Yeah, especially, and if people are looking for ways to bring up those conversations, you know, it's it's things like basically like this show here, where you can sit there and share it with your partner, and then you guys can have a conversation based off that, like, hey, I heard this show here and then come back, let's have a conversation after you finish the show. So by doing that, that can kind of open up, you know, the conversation to make it a little more easier.
Shani Hart
Yeah, it makes it less risky
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and and also you don't have to have those conversations about your actual relationship or sex life. They can be hypothetical as well. Like, you can talk about, oh, what do you think about that, for other people? Do you not I mean, that you can have you can have the conversation without it being about your relationship initially.
Shani Hart
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
I love that. If there's a really great question, I just find this really interesting, is aftercare needed after swinging/parties. And that got me curious about like if you do any aftercare when when you come back home together after being at a swinger event,
Shani Hart
Oh, that car ride home is a lot, we talk about a lot of things
Tony Hart
Yeah, sometimes it could be yes, aftercare is needed for most people. I can sit there and say like I have had conversations with couples where they have to end the night with each other. No matter if it's just a conversation, no matter if it's, if it's sex, if it's a massage, it's something that they have to end the night with each other, no matter what, every single time. That little bit of care just makes it much more better because it brings back the internal dynamics of the couple to be much more stronger.
Shani Hart
I want food afterwards. We went to one in Atlanta one time, and they had started at, was it like two o'clock in the morning. They had a full buffet. And I was like, this is what I'm talking about. Remember, it had tater tots on it. But yeah, part of my aftercare is food
Hannah Witton
I love that, absolutely love that. I had a guest on the podcast before as well who talked about one of the best things about sex parties is the food so
Shani Hart
Oooo yes, you need to get your energy up. Like, you need to keep it up. I do like, a lot of times after the sex parties, I don't need to have sex for a while after that, like I'm good.
Hannah Witton
You're like I have been filled.
Shani Hart
I have
Hannah Witton
Well, Shani, Tony, hank you so much. This has been such a fun and enlightening chat. Where can people find you online? And also, where can they find your sex store?
Tony Hart
Alright, so our stores are located in the Washington DC area. We have one in DC that's in the Adams Morgan neighbourhood and one on the outskirts in the city of Suitland. We also can find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and Twitter at @HartsDesires. And that's H A R T S, the word desires within S, D E S I R E S, and we'll be happy to talk to anyone.
Shani Hart
And our website is HartsDesires.com.
Hannah Witton
Lovely. Well, thank you so, so much. This has been an absolute pleasure.
Shani Hart
Yeah, I had a great time. Thanks for having us.
Hannah Witton
No worries. Thanks for listening. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
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