Abortion and Miscarriage Support with Zachi Brewster | Transcript
CW: abortion, miscarriage
Read the episode shownotes here!
Zachi Brewster
That's happened in the last year. That's like the biggest upgrade, I think, in abortion care in England since 1967, which is huge. It's absolutely huge. And if you think that that change happened in for telemedical abortion happened in March, and by June, I think half or just over half of all abortions were happening at home.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies.
Hannah Witton
Hi, folks, welcome back to Doing It. Before we get into today's episode, I wanted to mention some relevant things to the topics we discuss here that have been happening in the UK recently, and some small but important actionable things that you can do right now to help. And just FYI, I record these intros about a week before the episode goes live. So I'm sorry if this isn't super up to date, and feel free to share more resources and actions with us on social media. I know we have people from all over the world listening, but in the UK, the murder of Sarah Everard has been in the headlines. She was walking home one evening when she disappeared and a police officer has been arrested accused of her kidnap and murder. This is horrifying in itself and women all over the UK, including myself, are feeling really shaken. And then there was the actions of the police at the vigil and Clapham Common. And now the government are trying to pass the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill which will give the police more power to squash protests and create tighter restrictions on protests. Never mind the fact that Clapham Common was a vigil, not a protest. So things that you can do, there will be links to all of this in the show notes. And again, sorry if this is out of date by the time you're listening, but I felt it was important to share and defending our rights and standing up against sexism, gender based violence and police brutality is always important. So things you can do: sign a petition to protect our freedom to protest, you can write to your MP asking them to oppose the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. And you can fill out the government's open consultation on violence against women and girls. The call for evidence has recently been reopened in light of everything that is happening, and it closes on the 26th of March. So that is in two days time from when this episode is going live. If you are a man, please listen to what women are saying. Please don't get defensive. Learn about our experiences and talk to other men about it. Call out sexist behaviour in men's spaces when you hear it and see it.
Okay, thank you for listening and taking action. Now time for a smooth segue into today's episode and content warning for the topics of abortion and miscarriage. My guest today is the wonderful Zachi Brewster who is an abortion doula and sex educator and she does absolutely brilliant work providing holistic support for people before, during and after abortions. In this episode, we talk about Zachi's experience of miscarriage and abortion, how she became an abortion doula, doula training and the importance of taking care of yourself and setting boundaries in her work. We chat about how the context in which we learned about abortion in school was in RE lessons, which is religious education. And the importance of accessibility to abortion support, as people's needs vary depending on where they live, and what kind of access is available to them. And as well as the personal lived experiences of abortion, we also had to get into what's going on at a societal level in terms of the stigma, the over regulation and over politicisation, and what the impact of COVID has been on abortions in England. And Zachi gives us a passionate call to arms for advocacy and activism when it comes to abortion and reproductive rights. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. And without further ado, here is my conversation with Zachi Brewster.
Hannah Witton
Zachi, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Zachi Brewster
Thank you for having me. I'm well, I'm okay.
Hannah Witton
Good.
Zachi Brewster
In these times.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I feel like if you're doing, okay, that's great. If you're not doing okay, like that's also fine. You don't have to be
Zachi Brewster
Yeah, that's true.
Hannah Witton
It's all good. I'm really interested in the work that you do. And I guess we can just start off by explaining it because I've heard of doulas before, but I've never heard of an abortion doula. And I wondered, first of all, like what is a doula for anyone who doesn't know? And then what's an abortion doula and like how did you come about becoming one?
Zachi Brewster
Great place to start. So a doula, as we know it now is anyone or someone who supports others through the transitional periods in life, generally, this is around birth. So there are a lot birth doulas out there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah the context I've heard it in but I've not heard it being described as just like any transitional period.
Zachi Brewster
That is what it means but it has taken off through birth work, through pregnancy, and the postpartum period. And the majority of courses that you will find are for those types of support. And the support offered is not medical. It is informational, emotional, somatic, so practical, and physical and managing all of these aspects of these experiences. There are also death doulas, which is also something I'm interested in, but not I guess practicing.
Hannah Witton
Is that for a person who knows that they're dying, or for like their loved ones?
Zachi Brewster
Yes. For people that maybe have illnesses, and know they're going to die and also want someone there, who's maybe less emotionally involved. But that can hold that space. Something that I learned, actually, when I was training to be a doula was that, you know, our work is, our work is intimate, but it's not personal. And I guess that's, that's the role that we we hold in intimacy would be experience with the person, but being able to witness the emotion without, without falling into the emotional aspect of the experience itself, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Because there's no fear that whatever they do or say you would take personally and like, hold against them in any way. Like, that's not what the relationship is?
Zachi Brewster
No, I mean, there are boundaries involved. So I also do state if... I have my own boundaries. So for example, if... I've never had to, I've never not worked with someone. But of course, if someone was racist, or for any other reason, I felt I couldn't work with them, then I also wouldn't hesitate to because I... to care for someone, you also have to care for yourself. And yeah, I do state my boundaries are very clear. And I also invite others, the people that I work with to also state their boundaries as well. So from if I'm asking a question that you don't want to answer, that's fine. You don't have to. And also, if you ask me a question that I don't, I don't want to answer or it's not the right moment to answer I won't answer. So things like that, because I think it's, especially with the work I do in supporting people around abortions. There is a lot of self inquiry, digging, emotional, emotional inquiry, as well. And it's not always easy. For the most part, it is necessary. So in light of that I am an abortion doula. I think you also asked me, How did I get there? So I actually... an abortion doula there are, from what I've seen there are abortion doulas that do different things. So for example, if we jump across ponds, there are abortion doulas that are focused on accessibility, for example.
Hannah Witton
So helping someone actually get access to an abortion, if that's what they want.
Zachi Brewster
And I did an abortion course for the first time, I mean, I've been an abortion doula for four years, and I did my first abortion course. Which may sound awful, but I will say I did my first abortion course last summer with Alliance For Choice. Really interesting because my work has focused mostly, I've worked with people, mostly in England, and a few people around Europe, so the Netherlands, Italy, and also Greece. And I've worked with people in countries where accessibility in terms of legality is not necessarily the issue. I've worked with them because of care. I've worked with them because they needed a space to debrief or to speak to someone or to... after years, to process their experience as well. So I've worked with people from before they're planning to have an abortion or just as they're planning to have an abortion to a week after they've had an abortion to five years or 10 years after they've had their abortion. And my work, as I said, is less about accessibility but more about the emotional side of things and supporting someone through that. If we look across the pond, a bigger pond, let's say, to the States, abortion doulas are chaperones. A lot of their work is focused around chaperoning people from home to clinics, or within the clinics itself, which is something that is not seen in England, and is not, I don't think it's allowed. I've tried I guess to do that.
Hannah Witton
What, chaperoning?
Zachi Brewster
Not chaperoning but being with them in the clinic, and it wasn't allowed. Whereas in the States, you have some abortion clinics that the doulas work in the clinics. It's not that the client or the person contacts the doula separately. The doulas are part of the clinic.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I see.
Zachi Brewster
So yeah. So I dunno if I explained that well, in the sense that there are very different types of abortion doulas based on the country that they're in, and the yeah, the space that they're in. But I would say I think anyone, it just goes also to show that, you know, being an abortion doula is not one thing, it's many things. And in short, it's meeting the needs of people that need your support, when there is not always that support available, especially around abortions. So yeah, that's what I do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes sense. Because, I mean, everyone's needs are different, even if you know they're from the same country and like have very similar experiences, because they're a different person, they will need a different type of support. But then, like you said, in different countries, there's different laws and accessibility when it comes to abortion. So those needs will also be really different. How did you become an abortion doula? What made you want to do that? And like, how did you? I'm really interested in the training as well, like how that works.
Zachi Brewster
I get that question a lot. And so if I start with how, or why or what inspired me, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Why is a great way to start.
Zachi Brewster
So I didn't actually have it much to do with reproductive health I guess. I studied food, I loved food from when I was a teenager, I thought I was going to become a chef.
Hannah Witton
Multitalented
Zachi Brewster
I will say I should caveat that by saying I'm not the world's best cook. But my food hasn't hurt anybody to date. So it's definitely passible and edible.
Hannah Witton
I mean, winner, great.
Zachi Brewster
But I, so I finished my undergrad. And then I fell pregnant. And I was not expecting that, that was not as many people that's not part of your life. That's not part of the life plan. And I was umming and ahing, about what to do. I wasn't in England, I was studying abroad, I wasn't really in a great place in my relationship. And I was like, I actually don't know what I want to do. I knew that I didn't want to parent at that time. But because of the stigma I was also too scared to make a choice.
Hannah Witton
Just kind of like paralyzed as being like, well, if I just don't make a decision.
Zachi Brewster
Like, literally that was me. I was like, I know what I want to do but I'm not going to make a choice. I really almost was just like, let me just see what happens the next few weeks. And what did happen was that I ended up having a missed miscarriage, which is when the pregnancy stops, but you're still pregnant. And you don't necessarily realise or the fetus stops growing. And I had a tiny bit of spotting, so light bleeding, and I went to the hospital, and they measured to the fetus and they would like it hasn't grown in like, three, four weeks or something. And then they gave me two options. They were like, okay, it's likely that at some point, possibly in the next week or two, it will come out by itself. But there's also a risk that it won't. And so you can choose to have a medical abortion.
Hannah Witton
Which is the pills?
Zachi Brewster
Which is the pill to get it out now, which is what I chose. Because I was like I can't, I can't wait for like an unexpected or like a random. I just can't wait. I don't want to wait. And so I had the pills and it has been to date and most excruciating pain I've ever been in. At the time no one explained that to me. Now it does make sense that abortions, especially, that they're painful because they start contractions, and they start a release. And so yes, there will be blood. And yes, the bleeding will be heavy because you're shedding the lining of your womb that hasn't shed in however many weeks that you've been pregnant so, and you've also been growing pregnancy tissue, and also to help with that your, your womb does have to contract there, as with your period, as when you're in a full term labour, let's say, there are contractions and so the pain is there. And I've heard from someone that's given birth and had an abortion. And of course, the pain is, you know, different for everybody. But they said that their abortion was more painful than their birth.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Zachi Brewster
But that is just also one person. And this is just... But what I will say is that, at least where I was in the care that I had, I was not told the extent of the pain that I could feel so it was a shock. And I also was told the extent of blood that I probably should have been prepared for, and I wasn't prepared for.
Hannah Witton
Even just on a practical level, you got to be prepared for that.
Zachi Brewster
Yeah, I, I had to at some point, when it really kicked in, I had to just sit on the toilet because I was like, I can't keep changing. Like it was just almost it was it was a lot. And then, sorry, that was a really long introduction to why I became abortion doula.
Hannah Witton
Now it's all good.
Zachi Brewster
But I guess because of that experience, and then afterwards, bleeding carried on, but to a lesser extent, I think the shock of first of all, getting pregnant, being pregnant, not being pregnant, the abortion, and a complete lack of care afterwards. I then went into a deep depression for a few months. And then I distracted myself by going back to study. And then it wasn't till two years later that I was like, wow, that was that was a ride that you went on. And you're only just feeling better, better, I guess, air quotes, now. And then my thought turned to well you can't have been the only one.
Hannah Witton
I've never thought about that before where you just kind of like whether it is a miscarriage, and then you have to kind of still kind of do an abortion or if it is just an abortion, just the fact that you're kind of like it happens and then you're just sent home and it's just like goodbye.
Zachi Brewster
So this is also, this like, I'm going to jump forward to now to why I've also created Dopo, but it's also because, and it sounds a bit backwards but abortion care provision as it stands now, for the most part is pregnancy focused. And it doesn't focus on the person,
Hannah Witton
Right.
Zachi Brewster
Of course, it makes sense that we have a health or that we have a healthcare practice where you know, I guess abortion is there to release pregnancies if we put it like that. But for many people, that experience doesn't stop there. And so the care itself shouldn't stop there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like once the pregnancy is over. Yeah.
Zachi Brewster
And so I guess with Dopo our aim is to both educate from like, age appropriate RSE lessons in school. So that if, if during a lifetime, you do encounter this, you know, you also have some tools, some knowledge, it's it's not maybe it's less of a shock, but also to support people before, during and after their... not to take away from the medical side of things, but to support that. And to add an extra layer, I guess, of care that is currently not there. So now jumping back again, there were no abortion courses. And actually, I didn't think that that's what, that's what I wanted to do. I was like, I just want to help people that are pregnant. And the cheapest way for me to do that, because I did want to retrain as a midwife, but I was like, you really can't afford that now, I was paying off your student loan and you just did a Master's. I mean, now is not the best time to do another undergrad. I met a midwife and she said to me, you can affect more change out of the system than joining the system so go and be a doula. So I trained to be doula. I did a couple of doula courses. One was a week long one was nine months long.
Hannah Witton
Is that, is it nine months long on purpose? That feels symbolic.
Zachi Brewster
It did feel really symbolic and it was actually a wonderful, wonderful training. It was with two women called Samara and Fiona and every few weeks I went to Wales as a sacred birthing sacred birthing doula course I think sacred birthing and basic midwifery training, something like that I will find maybe the proper name for it. I'm so bad with names.
Hannah Witton
We can pop it in the show notes.
Zachi Brewster
Perfect. Their course was wonderful because it it opened I guess what some, what many doula courses are which is, again, very focused on birth, on the postpartum period. But of full term pregnancies, and there's opened up an extra element of, yes, the emotional side of things, but also you as a practitioner, how do you use your gifts, your interests, your skills that you have to better the lives of birthing people? And it was actually through that experience that I was like, okay, I'm going to be a full spectrum doula. So I'll open it to everyone. I'll charge the birth clients, and I will offer people that are coming to me for miscarriage or abortion support for free. And when I started, everyone that came to me was for abortion and miscarriage support. So I actually have done no birth, no traditional birth work I thought, and I was like, well, this is strange. So yeah, it really affirmed that people really needed this.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Zachi Brewster
But of course, I wasn't charging. And I was doing this whilst having a full time job. And also with the nature of abortions, I was like speaking to people at six in the morning, or 11 o'clock at night, because that's when partners weren't around, or when children weren't around, or they had a moment to themselves. And it took a toll, it really took a toll on me. Because I also, and this is why I made the point of boundaries at the beginning. I hadn't learned to set my own, I hadn't found a pattern as well, that worked with me and worked with people. And this is something that came over time.
Hannah Witton
Because it's really intense work.
Zachi Brewster
Yeah, it can be. And this is why boundaries are extremely, extremely important. And I think a large part of being a doula which maybe doesn't occur to people is taking care of yourself, like a huge, huge part, if you're not sure how to take care of yourself, or you're not sure also, about your needs. I mean, boundary setting is a constant, it's a constant learning. It's not that you learn it once and you're great at it like. But I would say you have to be, you have, you have to be willing to flex your boundary muscle. If not, you'll be depleted and we will have nothing to give. A large part of doula work is learning set boundaries and taking care of yourself.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to come back to something that you said about Dopo and about wanting to do like RSE in schools and it made me think about how when abortion was talked about when I was in secondary school. It wasn't through the sex ed classes we were having it was in religious education. It was in RE.
Zachi Brewster
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And just even thinking about that now I'm like, oh, wow, we're not teaching about abortion in a way that is like, here's the information. We're teaching about it in a way like, let's debate the values of this.
Zachi Brewster
Yes, exactly. And this is, this is a, this is a huge, huge problem. And yeah, it's a huge disservice as well, because we know that, yes, we do need to have conversations about accessibility, we do need to have conversations that are political about the legalities. But more restrictive abortion laws, don't stop the number of abortions that happen, they will stop the number of safe abortions that happen, but not the number of abortions, then, in fact, it will be even harder to count the numbers. And there's a risk that you'll be counting lives like bodies because of, because of people... If someone wants an abortion, if someone doesn't want to parent, they will find a way. Which is their right to it's their body and their future. And so this is also why we support of course, we're pro choice. We support the work of the many campaigners that have come before us and will thankfully that we also hope to be working alongside. But our focus, I guess at Dopo is people. And we state on our website, people will have abortions. However they have them, we are there to support them. We're not here to debate whether they should or they shouldn't. We are here to support them. Our focus is people. And yeah, that's what we're here for.
Hannah Witton
So can you briefly explain what Dopo is because you've like just launched it, congrats. And yeah, tell us a bit about it.
Zachi Brewster
So Dopo is a community space. That will be for now on Instagram and workshops and events that we build around that, focusing on improving abortion care and abortion education. So through Dopo I will be continuing my one to one support with my doula clients. So people that need support before, during and after their abortions. We're also looking at creating drop in group sessions, so very small select brave spaces for people that want to connect maybe once a month, or just come to one and not have regular sessions with me. And we're also looking at education and training. So creating RSE lessons, going into schools, working with community organisations, as well. Hopefully alongside some abortion clinics too and later this year, we will be launching our abortion doula training, which people have been asking me about since last summer. And so guys I have to say, it is in the pipeline, we are working on all of these things, which is a lot of work. But yeah, it's also very exciting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so exciting. And I think it's really cool that you've kind of, you've seen this need. And obviously, it's like, come from a place of personal experience as well. So you just you really know it and understand that, you know, there are so many people that just aren't being catered for. And there really, is this, this piece missing in our healthcare. So yeah, well done.
Zachi Brewster
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to ask, what is one thing that you wish everybody knew about abortion, and miscarriage or miscarriage.
Zachi Brewster
That they're probably more common than you think. I think the stats for miscarriage are around one in four, and birthing people or women. And around for abortion, it's one in three. Of course, I have to say that, I will caveat this that the stats are focused on women, but we do know that trans and non binary people do have abortions as well. So one in three women in England will have an abortion by the age of 45. And in terms of the trans community, I think this stat is from the US 3% of the trans community will have an abortion, or need abortion support at some point. And in England and Wales, I think we had the highest number of abortions, since I think it's the 1967 Abortion Act. And in 2019, that was over 207,000 abortions in that year. Last year, it was slightly higher, I think. And I know some people be like, oh, but it's increasing that's a really bad thing. But actually, that's a really good thing, because it means that people are accessing health care that is safe, medically safe. And that's not to say, I know there's people like Women on Web, Women on Waves, where you can order who do provide increased accessibility by providing pills online.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because since the first lockdown, didn't they make this... because you have to take two pills, didn't they make the second one available for you to be able to take at home? And that's happened in the last year.
Zachi Brewster
That's happened in last year. That's like the biggest upgrade, I think, in abortion care in England since 1967. Which is huge. It's absolutely huge. And if you think that that change happened in, for telemedical abortion, happened in March, and by June, I think half, or just over half of all abortions were happening at home.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Zachi Brewster
And that was, that's like wonderful because it's improved autonomy, it's improved accessibility, it's reduced waiting times. People can have this experience in the comfort of their own homes. It's not like they're in a clinic and taking pills and you know, on the bus on their ride home and bleeding starts or cramping starts or if they're living somewhere rural, for example, and they're having to drive and that experience is starting in the car on the way home, you know, that's really uncomfortable.
Hannah Witton
It's obviously a, it's a different thing. But when I got my coil put in, like I almost didn't make it home on the tube, because the pain like kicked in when I was like halfway home. It was horrendous.
Zachi Brewster
I mean, there's just been the government consultation, which closed last week. I was gonna say last last year, but last week, and this is a public consultation on whether or not I guess this, this telemedical abortion should remain or not. I'm really hoping it does.
Hannah Witton
I didn't realise there was a consultation. Oh no, I really hope it does as well.
Zachi Brewster
It needs to, it needs to.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it makes me think as well. Like if obviously, it was COVID and lockdown and everything that made it necessary because they didn't want too many people like in hospitals and in clinics, and allowing people to do that at home, like freed up that space and meant people weren't traveling and stuff. But then it makes me think like, it was before. Like, why didn't this happen before? Like, it wasn't the case that you couldn't do it. It was that you didn't want to?
Zachi Brewster
Yes. Exactly. And abortion, I will also look for the stats for the show notes as well. The abortion pill when taken with the guidance that abortion care providers provide. It's safer statistically than Viagra, aspirin, getting a wisdom tooth out.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Zachi Brewster
And it's so much more regulated than all of these other things. Because of the stigma. It is over-politicised, I guess, for an area of health care, over-regulated, I think it's a better word. Well, I also think that it's over-politicised completely as well, especially with decision makers who it doesn't personally affect. And it's more about control than actual any form of care.
Hannah Witton
And this false sense of morality.
Zachi Brewster
Exactly. That's, that's the discussion that will never end if we embark on that route.
Hannah Witton
It feels like it should have ended centuries ago.
Zachi Brewster
Yes. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
But we're still having it.
Zachi Brewster
So the way I also look at it, and I think, many people, the majority of people look at it is, is that it is just a reproductive experience, the same way we look at menopause, the same way, we look at having periods, the need for abortion has always been there, this like, the same way we look at pregnancy or support around pregnancy. It is an experience that has always existed centuries ago, and will always exist. And we also have to remember that abortions are healthcare, and abortions are not always about choice. Abortions are there, are an important part of health care, because sometimes it's about, you know, releasing a, releasing a pregnancy for whatever reason. And so this is also something we, we highlight on Dopo that, you know, we support all abortion experiences, there's no good, bad, acceptable or unacceptable abortion, like, people have abortions, people need abortions, and there should be support for that. And, I mean, I would love if the government really took on our Manifesto, because I think we could potentially have a great abortion, and not just an abortion system, but reproductive health system, which means the whole shake up as well, you know, putting autonomy back into, into people's hands. That's, that's what we need, allowing people to become the experts of their body become the experts of their experience, feel seen, feel safe, feel, you know, not stigmatised. And feel supported. I've had, I've had since we launched, which was like three or four days ago, the number of messages I've had from people, like I only finished responding to messages that I received three days ago, yesterday, and also because I sat down for a few hours to like, get through them both on Instagram, by email of people that are also, have shared experiences from 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, who were like, who have just said to me, I don't know what I can do, but I want to help because I remember when I went through this, I didn't, I didn't want to be alone. And I don't want anyone who goes through this now to be alone. So what can I do? I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like building a mini movement, a whole army of people that like, tell me what I can do, I can help.
Hannah Witton
Rally the troops!
Zachi Brewster
Because this is also what we need. Like we all know someone that's had, we all know at least one person that's had an abortion, and whether you know that they've had it or not, is irrelevant. But also the stigma...
Hannah Witton
Ooh that's a really good point actually.
Zachi Brewster
For many people, it doesn't mean, also because the stigma is held by society. It's not that that person feels stigma, it's because also we perpetuate it as a societal group.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Zachi Brewster
As individuals and as collectives and movements. We, there are many of us that are trying to shift that through different ways. And this is like by welcoming people to talk about it on a podcast or sharing our stories or there is some really great abortion activists who are doing activism in really creative ways like there's abortion embroiderer, is that the word? And they embroider like abortion slogans and abortion support. And then they sell the pieces, there's people that share stories, there's people that, abortion nurses that share information. And, and I guess this is a message to anyone who's listening who's like, I want to, how can I help. If you have a platform, share the mic, or allow people who are doing this work to share their stories. If you have a platform also direct them to donate to funds, or people working within accessibility or working in providing care, support, pills. If you're an artist, you know, auction something off or create a wonderful piece of abortion art, there's there's so many ways if you're a chef and you want to bake a cake, bake abortion cakes and donate money,
Hannah Witton
I've seen someone do like cakes with like icing slogans on them as well. Like the embroidery but with like slogans on cake.
Zachi Brewster
There are many ways that, just as there are many ways to be an abortion doula, there are many ways to...
Hannah Witton
be an advocate...
Zachi Brewster
... share your voice and, you know, be an activist and be counted and be heard. And we will share, I launched slightly after, there will, there are public discussions going on, like there was just the government consultation, not always. But when those calls come out, there's a load of support like BPAS, the folks from Abortion Book Club shared, like a list of how you can, how you can like to support your responses to these things. So there is so much going on.
Hannah Witton
We can share these resources.
Zachi Brewster
There are already things you can do, volunteering with a local group in your area, looking at your local abortion clinics, there are also many, I know, lobbying like outside of abortion clinics is also a problem. So people are chaperoning and shielding people that are going in, although that is, of course, maybe less so during COVID. But there are multiple ways to get involved. So please don't feel small. And please use whatever tools you have, whatever creativity, whatever skills you have, to get involved because you won't be alone for sure.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I love that call to arms. I think it's so important. I've had some questions from people on our Instagram. And I'll try and put as many of them to you as possible. Somebody asked what kinds of abortion access/miscarriage support is there for AFAB people who aren't women?
Zachi Brewster
This is a wonderful question. There is not much if I'm being honest. At least I haven't found any. And even for people that identify as women. If I look at my experience, for example, the support I found was very focused on, you're married, you're trying to actively conceive, and you're having multiple miscarriages. How can we support you? When actually the support needed was, you've had a miscarriage or you've had an abortion, let's just be here for you. And you tell us what you need. So I know that some clinics do offer counseling, although some of that, that counseling can be very grief focused, rather than being directed by the person. But yeah, this is also what we're trying to change, not just through the services we offer, but supporting service providers to make their services more inclusive. And to recognise that it's not just women, that it's not just women that needs support, that it's not just a choice issue, but it's not about the loss of the chance of parenthood, but it's just that people want to be seen they want to be supported. So yes, I'm sorry that you haven't found that support.
Hannah Witton
But hopefully things are getting better and the support that is out there is becoming more inclusive, as well. Somebody asked thoughts on having an abortion in a committed relationship, because it's just not the right time.
Zachi Brewster
That is a perfect reason to have an abortion. Just because you're in a committed relationship you don't have to parent, your relationship status has nothing to do with whether you want to parent or not. And so if it's not the right time for you have an abortion.
Hannah Witton
And I think it goes back to what you were saying before about that feeling of there being good abortions, there be bad abortions. And just, there doesn't have to be, like a reason behind it. You just not wanting to be pregnant and not wanting to parent like, even if you like, no matter how deep you search, if you still can't like, figure out why you feel that way. But you know, you're just like, I just I just don't want to like that is completely fine.
Zachi Brewster
That's a more than valid reason. And I say that, and also at the same time, you shouldn't have to validate your reason for having an abortion, if you want one, you should have one. This is also why I was saying as well that the stigma is societal. Because we don't, sometimes we hold stigma, abortion stigma, as well, without realising it. Even if we were pro choice, we agree with it, even for ourselves. It's like, well, I agree with everyone having an abortion but if it comes to me, I would feel so bad if I had to do that for myself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I hear that a lot. Like, oh, I'm pro choice, but I could never do it
Zachi Brewster
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Which is, which is a valid experience, obviously. But it is interesting to hear that coming up a lot.
Zachi Brewster
And I realised that was my experience. That's why I was like, I know, I don't want to do this. But I also don't want to make the choice. And a lot of us hold that or have held that. And it is stigma. So something when I'm working with people I always try and you know, get them to think okay, when was the first time you heard about abortion, because for many people, the first time they heard about abortion is what stuck to them. So if it was their, their parent, or their friends being like, that is such a bad thing to do. Some people have internalised that and so when it comes to their abortion, it's like this is, I've done such a bad thing. And I sort of work with people to be like, is this your belief or belief you're holding from someone that you love and respect in your life, that you've adopted that from and internalised? And like, getting all of us whether we're having an abortion or not, also should be doing that work of what do I truly believe? And why do I truly believe this? And why do I believe this? And is it actually me? Or is it stigma and how can I break down my own stigma? How can I break down my own, not even doubts, but my own, yeah, my own biases around this?
Hannah Witton
I love me some self interrogation.
Zachi Brewster
Yes, it's, it's important. And that's also something that in the doula course, that we have developed, that's a huge part of it. Before even starting to think about supporting other people. It is okay, where do you stand? What are your values? What are your biases?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Zachi Brewster
Because if they come up when you're supporting someone, you won't fully be able to support them, or you will but with also a jaded view, the support out there has to be unbiased and has to be non judgmental, because people already going through it bring that upon themselves, and you having that as well, it's not helping the situation. So in short, if you want to have an abortion, have an abortion. And this also doesn't mean that you can't parent later on down the line. Your abortion today, I should say that also to anyone listening, your abortion today does not affect you being able to parent further down the line. It's not a now or never. So yes, do what you've got to do now take care of yourself. It is also self care, abortions are self care and self care should be prioritised.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. If only capitalism also thought that abortions were self care then would just be marketed left, right and centre. Wouldn't that be great. Somebody asked has the strengthening of the anti abortion movement in recent years had an impact on how your clients feel about having an abortion? Which I think is interesting. Have you seen the impact of that?
Zachi Brewster
I think it's strengthened in the sense that people are more vocal and also able to share their opinions and their views and share them quite widely and quite quickly. It also doesn't help that we have a Tory government who has cut funding and reduced funding for sexual and reproductive healthcare these past 10 years. Because I've been doing this I guess for the past four years, I'm not sure how it was before. When I had my abortion now, my abortion/miscarriage, to your question before I'm not sure what it was it was both maybe, eight years ago I haven't, I guess followed it since the last four years. But I think that when I'm working one to one with someone, the problems that have existed or the problems that arise or the trauma connected to something based on society or law or accessibility are similar, at least in an English setting as they were maybe 10 years ago. And so the anti choice, anti abortion movement on a personal level maybe hasn't affected clients one to one, but on a social level, maybe that impact is felt a little more. Especially, also with people stating that they are pro choice, or, you know, talking more openly or counteracting that by as we said, like platforms like Shout Your Abortion that I love. That is a platform where you can submit your abortion story, and they share snippets, and they share the story. And that is also a great way of counteracting these opposing voices. I think by nature of the times we live, we're living in there is obviously people can shout louder and share their voices a lot louder, our government doesn't help. But also, at least, where I focus my energy as well, I see a lot of hope. And I don't think it's blind hope. We are banding together. We are also you know, finding ways of all of us may be doing different things, but working towards a greater good.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think that's a really lovely note to end it on. And before we say goodbye, where can people find you online? Where can they find Dopo? Give your work a plug, a well deserved plug.
Zachi Brewster
So you can visit the Dopo website, wearedopo.com, you can follow us on Instagram @doposupport, Dopo is D.O.P.O by the way.
Hannah Witton
I was just gonna say like, you just got a four letter domain.com. That's incredible.
Zachi Brewster
No it's wearedopo, so all attached dot com. I would have loved dopo.com but alas it was taken.
Hannah Witton
wearedopo.com, got it
Zachi Brewster
And doposupport, @doposupport on Instagram. And you can find me @zaz.brw on Instagram as well.
Hannah Witton
Wonderful. Well thank you so much for sharing your story with us and sharing what you do and that call to arms as well. It is very much appreciated.
Zachi Brewster
Good. Wonderful. Thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
Thanks so much. And thank you all for listening. Bye.
Zachi Brewster
Bye.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a Global original podcast