Shame, Sex Ed and Inclusive Sex Positivity with Jannette Davies | Transcript
CW: female genital mutilation.
Read the episode shownotes here!
Jannette Davies
One of the things in Sierra Leone is that 90% of women and girls will experience FGM in their lifetime. It's very much a cultural thing. It's very normal. I remember a few years ago when I first found this out, when I came here, and I was like... it's a very western mentality, like, why are these people doing this, you know.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies.
Hannah Witton
Hello, dear listener. Welcome back to Doing It. Before I dive into this episode, I just wanted to let you know that we're taking a break next week, a little midseason break to go with the bank holiday Easter weekend, because you know, us freelancers and self-employed people need to learn that we can take bank holidays off too. I actually now have the UK holidays calendar in my Google Calendar switched on, because I always used to completely forget about bank holidays and work straight through them, but not anymore. So yes, there'll be no episode next week, but we will be back on Wednesday the 14th of April.
But on to this week's episode. Today I'm chatting with Jannette Davies, the founder of Sonder and Beam, which is a community of women and non-binary people creating spaces to talk about sexuality, pleasure, and relationships, and they host loads of online events. We talk about what led Jannette to start Sonder and Beam and her African Christian upbringing, how she first learned about sex in a more conservative context and then became someone whose job it is to encourage others to speak more openly about sex. Jeanette is now living in Sierra Leone and we talk about the cultural differences around sex and dating. And we talk about FGM (female genital mutilation). Please look after yourself and feel free to skip that bit if you need to. There is so much stuff that we cover in this episode, like how sexuality is often dismissed as a topic and not taken seriously but it's connected to everything. And Janette and I have made careers out of talking about sex so obviously we think it is a subject matter that should be taken more seriously. We get into inclusive sex positivity and having different sex positive values. We talk about the media and Grease and Bridgerton. And we get into slut shaming and shame around sex in general. I really hope that you enjoy this episode. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in the show notes in this episode over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram: @doingitpodcast. And Jannette is actually offering listeners of Doing It one month free at Sonder and Beam and you can just apply online or book at their next meet and greet. And so without further ado, here is the incredible Jannette Davies.
Jannette, welcome to Doing It. Lovely to chat with you.
Jannette Davies
Alright. Thank you. Thank you for having me here, I'm really excited.
Hannah Witton
How are you doing?
Jannette Davies
I'm good. I'm kind of - I'm okay. I'm really good, actually. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
I had to think about that for a second, but -
Jannette Davies
Yeah, it's just been hectic. So it's kind of like, am I really good? I don't even know but I'm okay. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Good. I'm glad you're okay. So, I'm really excited to chat with you all about Sonder and Beam and what you do and what Sonder and Beam does, but I guess a good place to start would be: what is Sonder and Beam and why did you start it?
Jannette Davies
So Sonder and Beam, previously Scarlet Ladies, is a community for women. And now we've obviously made it more inclusive to include non binary people too.
Hannah Witton
Is that why you changed the name?
Jannette Davies
That's why we changed the name, yeah, so it's ultimately a community to encourage people to discuss and be - and normalize talking about sex. And we join it and we have workshops and programs and things going on that members have access to. So before the COVID situation we used to do events every single week. Live events. Now we've gone more online, and it's more member-led. Members of communities and micro communities to increase the diversity because that's what women - that's what our women and our members want, to have a more diverse range of people speaking that they can relate to so, um, so that's basically the gist of what we do.
Hannah Witton
What kind of topics and stuff do you cover?
Jannette Davies
We cover every single thing. I think we've been doing - like since the Scarlet Ladies, what, five years ago we've done so many events and we've actually never repeat anything there, which is amazing considering that we do events pretty much every week.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow, amazing. Yeah, I mean, there's so much to talk about when it comes to sexuality.
Jannette Davies
Exactly, because you can go generic, and then you find that there's bits in the middle that hasn't been addressed, that needs to be spoken about. And so it varies. We can talk more from the, you know, political side, activism side, depending on on who comes into this class, to more workshops, which is more about self care, self love, mental health. And one of the things I have found is that when it comes to sex and relationships is so complex, a lot of people kind of just make sex or relationships just so simple, but it really affects our day to day lives and how we view ourselves. So, you know, it's, you can't just be like, oh, it's gonna just talk about how to have great orgasms and that's the end of that. It really isn't, because even if you went to explore, you're going to explore your sexuality - you have to deal with society, you have to deal with how you see yourself, you have to deal with mental health, so many things, and stigma and shame, religion, because of how people were raised up. And you didn't - you find that there's so much things to address and so many areas to look at. So that's the reason why we don't repeat so we talk about everything. It's mostly about sex and relationships and self-care.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and that's so true. And I think a lot of people forget just how connected sex and sexuality is to all aspects of our lives. And, like you said, like society and politics, as well, like, we like to think of, oh, sex is just the thing that happens between people behind closed doors, it's a private affair. Like, we don't talk about it. It's nobody else's business. It's just, we all do it, but we're not going to talk about it. And then actually, when you start diving in deeper, you're just like, oh, this has an impact, like you said, on on mental health on, like, identity, on money. Yeah, on all sorts of different relationships, that we have with all sorts of different people. And it's, that's one of the reasons why I love talking about it as well, because you get to talk about all of these other things in connection to it.
Jannette Davies
Exactly. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Deep.
Jannette Davies
It really is. It's just underestimated, I think because there's so much stigma with it, people tend to kind of - it's easy to dismiss it as nothing. And because that's how society raises us about sex and relationships, um, and a lot of people, a lot of people come from religious backgrounds as well, that also adds into it. So it's easy to minimize it into just, oh, it's just sex. Like, what's so difficult about it. Because it's easy for us to cope with that, rather than really looking at it thinking that, oh, so more - how we identify our sexuality is who we are, it's as simple as that.
Hannah Witton
It's selfish of me, but I just like wish that everyone thought, like, wanted to like overthink about sex, and have like all of these discussions with people, but like, no, let's get into it.
Jannette Davies
A hundred percent.
Hannah Witton
Even my partner is reluctant. Sometimes I'm like, no, let's dissect this thing and he's just like, I just want to enjoy it.
Jannette Davies
It gets exhausting always having to think about it. So even like with me, I have to kind of find some ways to kind of detach because you can overthink it because you realize that it's really not so simple when you're in it and you're thinking about it and trying to find solutions or understand something a little bit more. So yeah, I completely hear you.
Hannah Witton
I recently read some romance novels and I had to keep like switching between just enjoying the process versus like with sex educator hat on being like, oh, no, what's that? or like, oh, interesting, that dynamic there, like what's happening there ,or like ooh, the consent thing here, instead of just being able to just enjoy reading a book. So it has its ups and downs.
Jannette Davies
It really can mess you up in regards to what you really liked before you didn't have as much understanding of things and then all of a sudden you're watching your favorite movie - like for me, like my favorite, one of my favorite - I love musicals. Grease is literally like my - one of my favorite things but that film's like - and then you realize how Grease is, and, you know, the messaging behind it and how toxic it is. And you just are like - aw, why, I really just wanted to have like some me time, and just literally sing to, you know, Grease and Sandy and just have fun and you literally just like, why? Why have you destroyed this for me?
Hannah Witton
It's so true. I feel like I've heard it being referred to before. It's like feminist goggles. And I guess you could like you've got like the sex positive goggles. Like sometimes you just want to be able to take it off. I totally get that with Grease. I remember the first probably several several times I watched Greece because I was very young. I did not even understand Rizzo's pregnancy storyline. Like, it wasn't until I watched it as a teenager that I was like hang on, Rizzo got pregnant? And she was singing about it? And like, it just completely passed over me as a kid. Like when I was younger, which was so weird to me when I was like, older and I was like, oh! And I'm just like, what did I think? There's like that whole scene with the broken condom. And I was like, what did child me think that was? Did I just - it just didn't go in?
Jannette Davies
I guess it just isn't processing in your brain. It's not something you really acknowledge or think about as a child. Once you get older, you're more aware. That's the same thing with me. I never - I really liked Rizzo, I liked Rizzo more than Sandy to be honest. And so I never really understood the whole judgment thing with her either when I was younger until I got older and I was like, ah. Then it became more relatable to me. You know, so yeah.
Hannah Witton
So you mentioned as like one of the things that can impact how we feel about sex and sexuality being religion. And you grew up in a traditional African Christian background. And I wondered, like, what that was like, in terms of if there was any talk about sex and sexuality? And if not, like, where did you learn about sex? How did you learn about it?
Jannette Davies
Okay, so my story is, I have spoken about it because I've done sort of - and I've mentioned it to members, as well. So yes, I come from a very, you know, I went to church schools, primary, secondary, even college, it was all church schools. Church every Sunday, I'm from Sierra Leone, so it's very much - it's a very religious country. And I left there when I was seven years old but you're still raised up with the culture and understanding. Sex was not a lot of conversation that I ever had in my home and I remember the first time - moving from the Sierra Leone to England, the culture was different. And I remember I had a boy cousin and I never knew the word sex, and he kind of - I think he said the word, and then he kind shouted it out, and the house is like oh, you know, Janet said sex, used a sex word, you know, I think I was like ten or something like that. And I literally never heard that word in my entire life. I didn't know what it was. I got into so much trouble for it. And I had no clue. I never even said it. But that was the first acknowledgement of this word sex.
Hannah Witton
And then if you're getting told off for it, you've no idea like, why you're being told off.
Jannette Davies
Exactly, exactly. It was a huge thing and I remember it was all my family. And then I go into on primary school, you started seeing people, like, you know, primary school kids, you know, doing stuff, kissing and all that stuff. And it was just so intriguing to me, but I was really scared and I was like, oh my God. And by that time I'd also started my periods, I'd started growing breasts, I started growing breasts at the age of like seven. Then I was [inaudible] at the age of 12. really early, by and he wasn't, it was just not - like, because of my, me being so naive, I had no clue about sex. So when I - I didn't even know that's what I was doing. And that was just - it's only as you get older, you realize how deep it was, but the time there is just completely no - I'd never had the conversation, I never knew what it was. It was just - there was nothing. And then it happened and then it was like, okay, and then what then happened- so this is just before, two days after my twelfth birthday. And then going into secondary school, then the slut-shaming happened and it was just like, I just don't understand it. You don't understand just what this is.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like going from zero to 100. It's like, you go from being completely innocent and ignorant and like no, don't say anything like don't say the sexword around these small children. Girls specifically probably. And then like, you hit puberty and it's like you're a slag.
Jannette Davies
Exactly. And I went to an all-girls Church of England school. So it's actually worse because I don't know any other schools other than church schools but I - everyone I've spoken to, church schools are literally the worst for slut-shaming, so.
Hannah Witton
Wow. It's that purity culture, I guess.
Jannette Davies
it is a purity culture and it also just - you most likely go to a church school, your family's most likely religious and obviously going to an all girls schools, girls tend to be a lot more - for me, you know, the shame is just so much more, I found in girls schools as well. And so there's just a lot. And then obviously I continued to have sex? I'm not going - like I continued. So not really understanding what - how even - what it was. But my mum found out I think when I was 12, 13. And she was she knew but she did take me to the clinic. And that was how I started to be more open [inaudble.] And that was like my first - that was the beginning of my understanding. And she signed me up to like condom classes and made me get all of the sexual health tests done.
Hannah Witton
Oh, that's good. A bit too late.
Jannette Davies
Yeah, exactly. But she didn't know how to talk to me about, she did more of the scaring. But it was really helpful that you then sent me off to go on - it was like every Monday you have to go in to kind of like, have this, you know, education thing - it was a nurse that recommended it and she was just like we do this every Monday so after school, send her, you can send her and mum was like, yes, thank god I'm sending her off to someone. And that was it and I think by the time you know, sex ed started in secondary school, which was back when you're in year 10. I'd already known everything about condoms and everything like that but my friends hadn't. And I knew all these things just because of that early experience. So my first experience was wasn't great. And my understanding of sex - I went from as you say like completely naive to literally been flown into a world that I didn't really understand. To then later on in time understanding more, then I started working in Ann Summers when I was 18, it was my first ever job, and I became more into like sexual empowerment because of that, so yeah. So that's why experiencing the religious background and coming in from basically that background is completely prevented me from being educated and understanding how to make better choices and avoid certain experiences, I believe, if I'd known what - if that conversation had happened or if someone gave me like a five minute conversation rather than shaming me into not saying the word.
Hannah Witton
It's so true because the shaming, just kind of like has such a deepened like long effect of it doesn't necessarily - well, it doesn't stop people from doing anything, just makes them feel awful about it. And then like you said, like, not talk to anyone about those experiences, which can be like really harmful if those experiences were bad, you know, as well. But I think what you were saying as well just shows that even without any conversation or without any formal education or even just like informal education about what sex is, young people will figure out how to bump their bodies against each other
Jannette Davies
100%.
Hannah Witton
Like, you figure it out. And - but it's the way in which young people will do that either being like, what is happening? This - is this really bad. Versus like, okay, I'm prepared. I know what's happening here. I know what I want. I know how to communicate with this person who I'm with, you know, like, those are two such different experiences to have.
Jannette Davies
Yeah, it's funny because I always had parents and people especially classical obviously. Because, you know, our family and everyone around us, pretty much, so that's the mentality, which is just, oh, they don't know how to address their kids and they want to avoid it. I don't wanna do it at this time, I don't want to do it early because they're innocent, gonna get rid of the innocence. I would say, if you don't teach your children, somebody else will, and better for you to do it, to start with that, rather than assuming that they're not going to know. Don't ever assume what a child experiences because a lot of the time - [inaudible], let alone a parent who's got teenage kids. Everyone's been a teenager at the time, a young person most of the time you try to avoid a lot of your life and your parents. So I've never really understand how a lot of adults assume that by avoiding the conversation, it will never happen to their child, you know.
Hannah Witton
Right? It always confuses me because I'm like you were young once. I don't understand -that your child isn't special that they're going to completely avoid any mention of sex until the day they turn 18.
Jannette Davies
Exactly. The perfect time for them to basically find the person and getting married. And all of a sudden, the word sex and so educated, know everything they need to know. I was watching - what was I watching, I think it was a series. Oh, that's what, it wasn't - it was that, oh, what is it called again? That really popular show. Bridgerton, is that what it's called?
Hannah Witton
Oh yes, I was literally just going to mention that as well. The scene where the uom is explaining to Daphne like about - well, trying to explain about sex, and she's just completely clueless going into that marriage. Honestly, that was so funny and frustrating to watch.
Jannette Davies
Yeah, and she was so angry at her mum afterwards, and she was like, why didn't you tell me, because she had no clue that he was coming out so then he doesn't have a baby. And she didn't really understand that. She thought that was normal for sex. And that's when you meet a lot of women, you really understand that a lot of people don't know what - what is okay, what isn't okay. What's normal, what isn't? It's the same thing as survivors of abuse, and then they didn't necessarily know that's it is, a label to it, because no one has spoken to them about it and then all of a sudden someone has that conversation or they're more educated, then it's just like, okay, that's what I experienced. But that's exactly what Bridgerton kind of showed me was just like this parents doing this, I don't know, my child - I don't know what this - I think it's more to do with parents themselves and you know, can't talk about sex, and their lack of understanding about it, why they can't have that conversation more than they wouldn't be trying to maintain the child's innocence more than anything, personally. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but that scene in Bridgerton where the mum is using the strangest metaphors to try and explain sex and how pregnancy happens without actually saying any of those words, I was just like, wow. But also, yeah, just I wondered, like how accurate that was to conversations that maybe happen between parents and children now, or parents and children, like, back when Bridgerton was set, you know? People use all sorts of metaphors and euphemisms because they can't talk directly about sex.
Jannette Davies
Yeah. I think that parents in this generation struggle, because you alway think that the next generation will be slightly better then when it boils down to it, because of our upbringing, what we see - we kind of revert back to what our parents said, and how we were raised up, or what we understood. I think it's only a small percentage of people to actually make the change, and do something different. It's so much easier to stay back into your comfortable place, or what you know, and then repeat that same cycle. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, wow. That made me think of like, when I think of, like, children and kids and the way that they learn to do things by just copying, like people around them. And then like, when they grow up to be adults, and maybe become parents themselves. Once again, we're still just copying what we see around us.
Jannette Davies
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
And so maybe like when you're a parent, you're just like, okay, what is the main source of information about parenting that I have? My parents, okay.
Jannette Davies
It's so true. It's true. Oh, it's so true.
Hannah Witton
You also recently moved back to Sierra Leone. And I'm really curious to know like, are you involved in - is there like a sex positive communities in Sierra Leone? Like what -what's kind of like going on there from your perspective in terms of conversations about sexuality?
Jannette Davies
There isn't really a sex positive - what there is now, it is a completely different culture. And just, it's a whole different world, to be honest, than in England. And that was one of the reasons why I did wanna move back because I felt like [inaudible] they kind of needed something different, and I would be someone that could bring something different. But, um, one of the things in Sierra Leone is that 90% of women and girls will experience FGM in their lifetime. It's very much a cultural thing, it's very normal. I remember actually a few years ago when I first found this out and when I came here and I just think, oh, how - you know like a very western mentality is: why these people do this, you know, this is, you know, so wrong. And I was just, I was really just naive. When I came here, and I realized what it was and it's - and to someone who - I looked at it is part of the society, the culture, it's very much a normal thing. And to someone outside it, it's very much this evil thing. And I don't agree with it at all but for the people here, it's about acceptance, it's about being part of something. So just like in England or anywhere else, there's culturally certain aspects, like, people follow and they - traditions, and it's just like there's this whole way of life, it's the same thing there. If you want to accepted so it's this continuous thing of trying to decide what you need to be accepted. So you don't experience this, you don't go through this, then you're not gonna be accepted, you're not going to get married. And that is a huge thing in Sierra Leone, getting married. No one's going to want to marry you. And obviously, it's changing a lot now. People are becoming more aware, more educat there's more conversations been around it. So now you've seen posters and billboards about no to FGM. There's a lot of women empowerment groups going on, as well but - the ideas about sex - even the understanding about sex, and relationships, it's different. I think -it is kind of, I would say, it's a conflict, it's a very contradictory kind of experience because it's kind of like in one way is very conservative, but it also has this really different understanding of sex, which is that like, I find that the young people tend to be more open to be okay with dating outside of their main relationships as well, which is really interesting to me. To me, coming from west - like, England, it's kind of like cheating and affairs is a no, no, but over here, it's really acceptable. And it's, it's not, it's not -people aren't encouraging it, but it's so normalized, that it's just part of the way of life, which is just like, you know, dating outside. So really is a willingness kind of like, how can you have a whole conversation about being for married man?
Hannah Witton
This is, this is me, obviously, like projecting my, like, Western understanding of like relationship structures on to like what you just said, but I just wonder like, would any of those people who are engaging in those kind of relationships define it as non monogamy or polyamory or is it just, like, it's its own thing? It's not that.
Jannette Davies
It's not labeled though. It is just what it is. So it's very - it's a new experience, you know, you know, to people in a relationships, young people in relationships, and they'll be like oh, yeah, the boyfriend or their girlfriend have another partner. I mean, it's just not - but at the same time that the religious aspects of the country is kind of like it's not really accepted. But it's such a - it's part of way of their life. This is what I say, it's like a conflict.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like a, it's like an open secret.
Jannette Davies
Exactly, basically. So it's definitely if we're, you know, it's really different from what I know. So, whereas I'm now here trying to understand more and obviously, I haven't - so obviously I've been trying to maintain Sonder and Beam and get back, maintain that going, and then hopefully I'm going to - I'm wanting to volunteer and get into a role helping in an NGO addressing issues with FGM and child marriages. That's what I want to go into and to learn more about the field. So hopefully I can start something of my own here, and that's like - but I don't feel like I can come here and just start that immediately because I would be naive to think I can bring a lot of my mentality that I've been raised up with over there and come here and just be like, oh yes, you know, I know this and this is the way, this is the right way, because what is the right way is different in every country and everywhere, based on the society we live in. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. How long have you been back there now?
Jannette Davies
I literally came in December. Just before this lockdown. I literally came on the worst day. And then literally it was just like we've gone to Tier 4 now and I was like Tier 4? Since when? I thought it was Tier 3! And then after that we just kind of went crazy in England. So that's - I came in December, and I've just been through the Christmas period trying to settle in. Still trying to settle in because there's so many changes in England. A lot of our membership is online now and trying to navigate around that, but. Crazy life.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, well, like best of luck with all of that. And definitely, like, keep us updated on your work and like volunteering and stuff. I have a very silly question for you now. So on the Sonder and Beam website, where you've got like your, like, about me section, your title is chief pleasure seeker. And I just want to know what that is. And like what that means to you to be a chief pleasure seeker. I love it.
Jannette Davies
Okay. So when we first started as Scarlet Ladies, myself and my business partner, we all have - everyone has their names for their group [inaudible]. So that was one of the things, it was just more something that was one of their concerns, who we are. And at the time, I was really much more about pleasure. And I still am, which is about - encouraging women to find pleasure in their bodies, finding pleasure in, in sex and relationships and those things. So you know, I very much - getting rid of like the orgasm gap, which is so complex. So that's kind of like why I was pleasure seeker rather than like my business partner saying I'm a stigma smasher. She focused on getting rid of - one of the reasons why we started it - we had two different reasons. I wanted to encourage women to love sex and to talk openly about it. She wanted to get more rid of all this - to address more serious issues. So that's why we had a - so my some role was definitely much more about let's have fun with this and just see how great it could be and, you know, throw everyone the orgasm skittles and hopefully everyone will be really happy. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you kind of do need both of those things. You absolutely need the like the seeking pleasure and the seeking joy. And then you need to be smashing those stigmas and doing the like political and activism work. I feel like I want my own like sex superhero name. That's kind of how I'm seeing it, as like a superhero name. I'll have to have a think about that.
Jannette Davies
Have a think. I never saw it as that at all to be honest, I just saw it as let's create amazing titles that you can represent what we're doing. But that's sounds awesome. Superhero names.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's what I think of them as. I wondered what your perspective would be on how, like the sex positive movement and community could be more inclusive and diverse.
Jannette Davies
Yeah, I think that - I had that thought so much recently and when we changed to Sonder and Beam that was one of my things. It's so hard to - I feel like because of like, my, our mission and it can kind of beat you up because you're trying to change something or create something that people don't understand. But for me, including conversations on culture and sexuality, it's so important. If I look at - if I, you know, living in England, in London, which is basically like such a hub, so many different cultures, races, identities. But when you look at the sex positive world, it's very much a simple and one type message which is let's talk about sex and be more open, we should have these conversations, we should have more orgasms or do some more pleasure, but we forget that there's cultures like the example - Yes, we want to address patriarchy and smashing that and a lot of things we want to do but culture has so much impact on how we view ourselves, what we know, and what we believe in ourselves and everything. And it's just never addressed, it's never addressed how to overcome cultural differences, how to change the voice for, for maybe the - the Asian woman or the Black woman, or you know, someone who comes from different background, like, it's just the same message, which really truthfully, as a Black woman, you struggle to relate to a lot of the messages because it just doesn't sound like something you've ever gone through, or you can't relate to it, because it's just not relatable to your lifestyle or your culture, or what you understand. So for me, it's the culture. I think if we can bring culture into sex positivity a lot more, it would all become more inclusive. And by doing that, we'll have more people of different backgrounds talking openly about it. You know, and I think that's basically what it is.
Hannah Witton
I think that's really well said, and I hadn't thought about framing it as like, really highlighting cultural differences in order to make sure that the messaging that you're putting out there actually speaks to the people that you're trying to target or impact. And it made me think of something that I've been trying to do more of, when I kind of meet people. Meet people, what is that. But like, when I do get the opportunity to have kind of, like more one on one conversations, or in small groups, or with communities of people that I haven't really encountered before, the way that I think of it is just like meeting them where they're at. And, and not kind of going, okay, here's all of my sex positive values, here is all the knowledge that I have, and just going blaaugh here, have it all, but actually being like, what do you think about sex? Or what do, you know, like, what do you value? And what do you know? And then going from there kind of thing.
Jannette Davies
We have to realize that our values are all different. My values are different from yours, your values is different from somebody else's. And in our culture, our backgrounds, experiences, what we know, how we identify, it's also different. We're all individuals. Having the same messages continuously really, truthfully, excluding a wide range of people because you're only speaking from one type and so I definitely agree with you on that, which is when you're meeting someone just be a blank canvas. Don't have any assumptions or preconceptions on anything, just meet them and find out when they are, because one person's sex positivity is completely different. But if you force one type, you basically will alienate someone else who could identify as sex positive but because of your - they won't be able to relate to you. They will literally just stay away. And also they might not even believe that they're sex positive and be like, well I'm not sex positive because I don't believe in this, because they assume that that is the only way to be sex positive. It's one of those things where they say being sex positive means you have to sleep around and have loads of sex. It's that. And a lot of people and a lot of our members aren't that at all, a lot of them have gone through issues, traumas, that they need to address and they want to just be part of and want to normalize it to feel okay to say, I am this way, whatever it is for them. But when you go on social media sometimes, it feels like there's only one type which is about being so sexually okay a lot of the time. I don't feel great about sex all the time. Sometimes I can be like, can't be arsed with it, and I have to get up everything morning and think about how to be sex positive and maintain a safe space like that when half the time, like, I just can't be arsed. But this idea that you have to be a certain way to be sex positive is crazy to me, but again it's a one type message that keeps getting shared.
Hannah Witton
It produces another kind of shame as well of like, oh, I'm not having enough sex or I'm not having the right kind of sex. Especially with like, like you said that ,that potential dangerous message that sex positivity sometimes accidentally puts out there of like, sex is great, and you should be having the most pleasurable amazing and like mindblowing sex and mindblowing orgasms, like multiple orgasms, like all the time. And then if you're not that, if you're like, oh, I can't orgasm with a partner, like, I've never been able to do that, or like, you know, or maybe you're - maybe you are waiting until like you are in a long term relationship or married before you sexually engage with someone else, or maybe you're asexual, and you're not interested. And so you're just like, wait, does that mean there's something wrong with me? And like, you know, and so yeah, I totally agree. I think I've been seeing a lot more like nuanced conversations in the sex positive movement in like, the last two years or so more than like, when I first started out, because even I fell into those traps at the beginning of just like, we received all of these sex negative messaging so now we need to like swing the pendulum all the way to the other side of like sex is beautiful. But actually, kind of like what you were saying at the beginning, like, sex is just complicated. Like, it can be so many things.
Jannette Davies
Everyone should be achieve - trying to - I do believe everyone should be aiming for pleasurable sex? But we have to remember that a lot of women because of experiences and people, you know, have - even men, a lot of experiences is very traumatic for so many different reasons. And so having this idea is that, oh sex should be pleasurable all the time is forcing that, and oh you're not enjoying sex? It's one of the things, it's why, I think women, people, come into our space, because they want to have the honest conversations. A lot of times there isn't that. It's really sweet to friends. It's now obviously kind of more of a aware, like you know, more aware friendship groups and that tend to be more educated and things like that, but, you know, people they find that they don't have these conversations. I remember the Vaginismus Network, the founder, she came to one of the sessions and she was talking about it and she said, when she found out she had it, she didn't know it. So she finally - she founded the Vaginismus Network and then she found out one of her closest friends was experiencing in it. And that was something - she's known this person so long, she never ever knew - because we're never allowed to talk about the shitty parts about sex and relationships, which is more common because we all go through it. And this is why I think sometimes it's tricky for people to identify with sex positivity because maybe it's the positivity word, because it's kind of sounds too - like, a lot of people aren't that, a lot of people don't feel like that, one year they feel great and the next minute they feel like completely shit. So. Sorry, I don't know if I'm supposed to swear, but yeah.
Hannah Witton
No, that all makes so much sense. One word that I've heard some people using is sex critical instead of sex positive, which kind of like, has that balance and has that nuance and, and also, again, allows us to overthink things all the time.
Jannette Davies
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Which we love. Well, Jannette, thank you so much. This has been such a joy chatting with you and I really appreciate your time.
Jannette Davies
Oh, awesome, thank you for having me.
Hannah Witton
Where can people find you and Sonder and Beam online?
Jannette Davies
Okay, so we are sondarbeam.com, you can find us there. I do lots of open events, for people who can't kind of - who don't want to just register online - a place to get in touch with me and ask the questions. On social media we're Sonder and Beam, Twitter and Instagram. We're mainly Instagram but we do have a Facebook as well. Check the website and you can have all the links there. And again, you can do like a meet and greet, find out conversation with me and find out more if the space is right for you. So that's definitely helpful. So that will be helpful to anyone who wants to find out more about our little community.
Hannah Witton
Oh, Lovely. Well, thank you so much. Oh, and you are going to do an offer for our listeners. Is that correct?
Jannette Davies
Oh, yes. Yes, yes. So anyone obviously who's listening to the podcast, taking the time out, can definitely get a free month with us. So once you apply, or you book the meet and greet, then it's just applied, and then obviously you can enjoy that one month trial. You can cancel at any time or you can stay on and enjoy the rest of the community. So that's going on. So just mention the podcast, just mention the Doing It podcast and that's it.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for showing that to our listeners and I'll leave all the details for that in the shownotes if you are interested in taking advantage of that perk. Well, Jannette, thank you so much and thank you dear listeners, I hope you have a great day. Bye!
Jannette Davies
Thank you, bye!
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review, you can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a Global original podcast