What does Disability & Being Queer Feel Like? with Andrew Gurza | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Andrew Gurza
I was watching all this stuff going, how -
Hannah Witton
How is this relevant?
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, this doesn't relate to me, and I wasn't out yet. So I was like,
Hannah Witton
Miss, Sir, when are you gonna show us some dick?
Andrew Gurza
Excuse me, that's what I wanted to see.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It. Sexual Health Week may be over but we are continuing it here with more sex and disability content. But this episode was actually recorded during sexual health week so I think it can still count.
Hannah Witton
My guest this week is Andrew Garza. He was visiting London from Canada. I went over to his Airbnb, it was our first time meeting, even though we've spoken online a bunch. But he was so lovely, and insightful, and smart, and I can't wait for you to hear what he has to say. Andrew is queer and has cerebral palsy. He talks a lot about sex and disability on his podcast, Disability After Dark. And in this episode of Doing It, we talk about everything. From being disabled in the LGBTQ+ community, his work giving talks and consulting on accessibility and ableism, and why himself and other disabled people might choose to hire sex workers, and generally just about relationships, intimacy, body confidence, and all of the complicated emotions that can come with being disabled. It was such an amazing chat. I'm so grateful to Andrew for making the time to chat with me during his London trip, and just for being so honest about everything. I hope you enjoy this episode.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening, do go give us a review over on iTunes, five stars would be amazing, it really helps to get the word out there. And follow us on social media @DoingItPodcast on Twitter, and Instagram. Thank you, hope you enjoy!
Andrew Gurza
Oh my God, you're so forward, and I'm like, yeah, I have to be otherwise you won't pay attention to what I'm trying to say.
Andrew Gurza
People forget that when you're disabled, especially the level of disability that I have, you have to be really - when you're talking about sex, you have to be very forward and very like, hey, I want to talk about sex. When people don't, you then become obsolete.
Hannah Witton
Ah.
Hannah Witton
You have to be like - are you talking about being really forward with sexual partners, or just in general?
Andrew Gurza
In both my professional life, and both ways, in when when I'm working in the sexuality field, I also have to be very forward because, again, people don't take what I'm saying seriously, because I'm disabled. And then with sexual partners, too, I also have to be very forward because they don't assume that I can, all the mythology around sex is still there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, in the sexuality field, that's really interesting. Like people don't take you seriously, because what, they don't think that you have experience, or knowledge?
Andrew Gurza
They just don't think that I - like and then no one said this, but I've gathered it from just watching people watch me. Like they they'll come to a talk, and when I when I ask questions, they'll just sit there in fear. And I think it's like, okay, or they'll say like, so I did a talk last year for big corporation in Canada, and I'm there, over Skype, doing it. And before the talk, they'd said to me, can you take out all of the stuff about sex, and I'm like no, but this is a sexuality job. What do you want me to talk about? They're like, we're afraid that your foreignness will scare the people you're talking to you. And I was like, Who, who's the audience? They're like, well, a bunch of able bodied people. And I was like, well, then no, I'm not taking it out, you know, and you can choose what to do with that. You can fire me, and choose not to hire me, wherever you want, but I won't do that, because who are we protecting? They were like, we want to protect the interest of the audience. And I was like, who are you protecting?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
Just able bodied people? So I fought them and so I'm keeping it in, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And they asked you to come and talk about sexuality.
Andrew Gurza
And they wanted me to cut it out. And I said, no. And so after the talk, everybody came up onto the Skype and was like, wow, that was really, we needed that. And I was like, see, I told you.
Hannah Witton
Oh, good. So you, obviously, talk a lot about sex, and sexuality, and being disabled. Like, were you always really open about sex and your disability and how those two things intersect? Or like, do you have an origin story?
Andrew Gurza
That's a good question. Um, I do have an origin story.
Hannah Witton
I mean, we all have origin stories.
Andrew Gurza
I mean, I was always really shy about it. Like I was, I am still really shy about it, even though my public persona is to be very forward. Like inside myself, I'm a very shy, awkward person. I'm trying to, like, bring that awkward into part of my brand a little bit. But um, I guess it all started when I was in college and I realised that like, nobody was talking about sexuality and disability the way that I wanted to, or at all. And people were saying to me like, well, you should go, because I was studying law at the time, and everybody said, oh, go to law school, become a lawyer. And I was like, I don't want to do that. And I also realised in college that I was definitely queer. And so when I realised that nobody was talking about sex and disability in the way that I wanted to, especially in the queer space, I was like, oh, okay, I can navigate this. And I just started asking magazines to like, hey, do you want me to write for you? Like, hey, Huffpost, and just putting myself out there, hoping that I would get a response. And then they said, oh, you know, oh, no, we haven't had somebody write about this before, pitch us a couple of ideas. And so I pitched a bunch of free articles to get my name out there, and then it started taking off there. So I guess to answer your question, no, I haven't always been so open about it, because I'm, I'm still, even after all this time, still navigating, what are the what it feels like to be queer and disabled.
Hannah Witton
And I guess you just saw that it was like a necessity for it.
Andrew Gurza
I realised very quickly, once I started doing it, that I could turn it into a career. I could turn it into something that could make me some money, and give me a name, and I like that, because people were telling me at the time to - I would go to disability employment centres and say, I want to become a disability consultant. And they would say, well, that's not a job, so best of luck to you.
Hannah Witton
Lke, are you sure? Do you need a disability consultant?
Andrew Gurza
Basically. So I, you know, I felt discouraged because people were telling me that it was not a real thing I was doing. And then I just put my name on a card and went on Vistaprint, put my name on a card and said, okay, guess this is who I am now. And I started just handing them out and saying, hey, I wanted to talks, I want to do stuff, so it all came from just me needing work, and knowing that I had something to say, and hoping it would stuck.
Hannah Witton
That's amazing. And it's so cool that that's worked out as well, I feel like a lot of disabled people that I know have kind of created their own careers.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because that flexibility that working for yourself gives you, plus your disability like is really, really useful.
Andrew Gurza
Oh, it's fantastic. And I wouldn't change that for the world. I wouldn't go to work for anybody else now because it's -
Hannah Witton
You've seen the light.
Andrew Gurza
Exactly. I make, I make money when I want to. But I also can build community when I want to, and do volunteer stuff if I want to, and do stuff to bring it to give back to, you know, the next generation of disabled people who need a voice. So it's really cool that I'm able to do it in a way that I'm the boss. And I think also it's important to remember that like, disabled people can be leaders if they want to.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
They don't have to be, they're not inspiring anybody, but they can if they want to.
Hannah Witton
What's like the age of most of the people that you are talking to, especially online, or in some of the talks you do? Are you, is it kind of like from young people to like corporate events?
Andrew Gurza
I mean, I haven't done a lot of - I've done a few high schools, and that's terrifying because I'm not a teenager anymore
Hannah Witton
I sometimes feel like when I step foot in a school again, I revert back to who I was when I was in school.
Andrew Gurza
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like a teacher's pet. And so I'm like, oh my god, all of these kids are gonna start bullying me.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, no, I definitely revert back to being like, the awkward, quiet kid that's like, hey, wanna be friends with me? So I felt very weird doing that. But I mean, the most, most of the people that I speak to are, you know, college age upward. So I do a lot of university like, hey, you want - Frosh week, like freshmen first week, want to do like, get to know your body? Yhey typically will tokenize me if they need disabled content, like I'm doing a bunch of stuff over Skype in the next few months that's like, come and talk specifically about sex and disability. And I know that you're tokenizing me, which is why I charge a lot because I know you're using that to say, oh, yeah, we have we've checked disability off our box, which is fine. I'm more than happy -
Hannah Witton
It's just going to cost you
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, basically. I'm more than happy to do it for you, but it is gonna cost you.
Hannah Witton
No, that's fair enough. For you like how does your queer identity and being disabled, like how do those two things like intersect in the work that you do, but then also in your personal life?
Andrew Gurza
Oh wow, that's a big question.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
How do they intersect? I think in the work I do, being queer disabled is a real asset because typically, when we talk about sex and disability, if we do it all, it's usually from the viewpoint of somebody who just became disabled via spinal cord injury, and it's usually white, cis men talking about how they became disabled and how -
Hannah Witton
Often that storyline that is portrayed, if any movie about a disabled person, that is the narrative.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, like the Me Before You thing, which I watched and reviewed it for my show. And I was like, oh, this movie was crap. Like, that kind of stuff, all the time, and so I think my queer identity really helps me because I can say, no, no, no, you need, you need this, because you can check all these boxes, and I'm the guy that will help you do that. So I really, in my professional life, I really use it as like a selling point.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, your USP.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, to get gigs and stuff. In my personal life, my queerness and disability is important because I show queer men that like, hey, you can still be hot, and you can also be a wheelchair user, or you can have varying levels of disability.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, cuz what was that hashtag that you started earlier this year?
Andrew Gurza
Disabled People Are Hot.
Hannah Witton
Yes, it was amazing.
Andrew Gurza
It went so viral, so fast, that I wasn't ready for it.
Hannah Witton
Just like loads of different disabled people like, posting pictures of themselves, like just looking absolutely fierce.
Andrew Gurza
I wasn't, I literally posted that on a Friday, because I was bored. And I put it on my Twitter, and then I looked at it and was like, you know, let me just see if this hashtag has been used. I thought for sure some disabled activists had used, I thought it must have been used already. And when I pulled it up there are no tweets under that hashtag. And I was like, okay, let me just see what happens if I asked people to put photos with the hashtag. And I thought, oh, I'd get five or six. And I did before I went to bed that night, I went to bed. And I woke up with, like, 20, you know, 20 plus notifications. And I was like -
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, when it can't compute, it just says 20 plus.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah. And I was like, what is happening? And people from all over the world were like, posting, and it just kept going and going. I mean, it's kind of quieted down now, but it was to see it on, it was over here. Before it really hit North America, it was on BBC Four, The Last Stand, that comedy show. Yeah, like it was over here and I was like, that's, wow. They mentioned my name, and talked about me, and I was like, this is very surreal. Because like, I didn't expect it to go anywhere.
Hannah Witton
It's so cool what a hashtag can do.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah. So it was really like BBC was calling me and saying, can we do an interview with you? And I was like, er, sure!
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so back to your queerness and then being disabled and how, yeah, you were saying about how you can like, teach other men like yes, being disabled is also hot, and like, if you're a wheelchair user -
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, I mean, I just think, I just think it's, it's, I love it. And sometimes I don't love it so much. Like it's a I think it's important to recognise that yes, I love being disabled, but there are moments where I don't. Particularly when in regards to my queerness, when I realised there are things able bodied queer men do with each other, that I can't do. So if I'm being really blunt, like anal sex, like certain aspects of that are things I can't do and when you're a queer man, with a penis, a lot of like, a lot of queerness is like, you have to do this way, and it has to be done in this way. When you can't, people look at you, the community looks at you like you're not as viable, and that's hard.
Hannah Witton
Right. And I guess there's also a lot of like, body ideals.
Andrew Gurza
Oh, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Amongst like the gay male community specifically, in terms of like gym culture and that kind of stuff.
Andrew Gurza
Oh yeah, dude, bro, masc for masc.
Hannah Witton
Masc for masc.
Andrew Gurza
And I I am totally guilty of idealising those bodies too. So I'm not pretending like like, like that's a foreign concept to me, that's definitely something that I have kind of put in my desirability list too. But also like, I can't go to the gym the way other people do, I can't exercise. Like that's why I've also kind of cornered the market on being you know, I jokingly call myself a bear in a chair, cause like I can't do that stuff, and I think my body is attractive. I think that's okay, and I want to show other gay men that, yeah, you can be in a wheelchair, and take off your clothes, and you should be sexualized in a positive way.
Hannah Witton
To get to like where you are now, in like in terms of your confidence in your body, was that a process or were you always really confident?
Andrew Gurza
It's still a process.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
Process every day. And one of the things I love about your work is you talk pretty openly about it, like your UC. And and so I just, I've been dealing with C Diff and IBS and all these over the last few years. So that was a big kind of knock in my head when that started happening of like, oh, how am I gonna also have sex, but I'm worried about whether I'm going to shit myself.
Hannah Witton
I don't worry about that anymore cuz I have a bag to catch it.
Andrew Gurza
Oh amazing, things I need to look into! No, but it's it's you know, even as we're sitting here right now, like I'm visiting London and I'm wearing a diaper because I have to, I'm worried about like, well, how am I going to go around? And how am I going to do stuff? So all these considerations, and you know, there are people on like Grindr in London right now being like, hey, can I come over? And I'm like, well no, how do I explain all the things about dis - so my confidence level is, it's a process, I'm never going to be always like, I'm in a prison. I guess I would say I'm confident in my awkwardness. That's that's kind of what's coming through.
Hannah Witton
Part of the charm.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, yeah. Like, my charm is that I am a very awkward person, and I am okay with that. Like, I'm comfortable being kind of like, oh, how do I navigate this? But when it comes to, like, hookup culture and talking about my IBS, guys are freaked out. I was working with a sex worker a couple months ago, and we've seen each other a few times, and I said, like, Hey, can we talk about you, and maybe fucking me the way other people do? And I was very serious about it. And he goes, oh, I don't know how I feel about that. And I was like, why? He goes, because you have IBS, and you might shit. And I was like, yeah, but it's anal sex, like, isn't that something we're all versed in? So like, having to have these conversations, and then have people tell me that they're not interested because it might happen, makes my confidence obviously go down? And I feel, I don't feel as sexy when when someone tells me that they won't try it, because they're afraid that that might happen. And then I think well, of course would happen to you. You're the disabled guy. So, like, my confidence does go up and down a lot.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and sometimes I guess it depends on the person that you're with, and like, how they also make you feel, the communication that's there.
Andrew Gurza
Oh yeah. I mean, I think we, we talk so much in sex circles about communication, and then especially around sex and disability even more so. But sometimes, when you're disabled, you just want to fuck. I don't want to -
Hannah Witton
Explain everything.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah. I don't want to have to explain to you how my body exactly works, every moment of our time together, especially with a sex worker. Like, you're paying for their time, so you don't have -
Hannah Witton
It's on the clock.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, you don't have four hours to like, break down everything that's happening to you. You have to get to it, and then be done. So, I forgot the question.
Hannah Witton
Me too. We've gone off on a tangent, but it's great. I was actually, um, it got me thinking like, what, what are the laws around sex work in Canada? Because I don't actually know.
Andrew Gurza
You know, they're murky. I think the sex worker can do sex work, but the client can be arrested.
Hannah Witton
Oh, so it's kind of like the Nordic model.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
So it's very hush hush, and the way it's the way, the way that the sex workers I work with navigate it are like, you're not paying me for sex, you're paying me for my time. So even if -
Hannah Witton
Oh, and then what you do in that time -
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, is between two consenting adults, is whatever. So technically, if I was like, hey, want to go for ice cream? I would still pay the same amount.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Andrew Gurza
They would come over, we'd have ice cream, and it'd be done. So it's very, it's weird.
Hannah Witton
That, yeah, I was either reading or watching, or maybe it was a podcast I was listening to, that was about sex work. And one of the interesting things that came up was how, obviously there's like a huge stigma around people who do sex work. And but one of the things that came up was that there's like this hierarchy of like, oh, well, that's a noble kind of sex work, which would be offering your services to someone who is disabled, who, in other circumstances might not be able to, like, have sex in the way that they could with a sex worker.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And it was, it was just a really, it really made me think I was like, oh yeah, like, we we, a lot of people might judge sex workers, but then we go, oh, but like, sometimes they will, like, you know, have disabled clients, and they're like, okay, well, that's fine.
Andrew Gurza
I have such feelings about this. And they are,ew, simply because like, I don't like how, like in that movie, The Sessions where the sex worker -
Hannah Witton
I don't know it
Andrew Gurza
Helen Hunt, and some British guy, I can't remember. He played Michael Bryan, the disabled guy from the 80s, who was an iron lung, and he hired a sex surrogate to teach him how to get off because he'd never been able to get off before, which is a great story. But in all these these narratives, we highlight the sex workers as this angelic person, whose like coming in to save this poor -
Hannah Witton
It's like, they're still getting paid, still doing their job.
Andrew Gurza
And you know, they're getting paid by the disabled person, who's making the choice to hire them. So I always clap back to that and say like, no, the disabled person is, is making the choice to hire this person. They should also be given, you know, the respect of being a client. Like I work with two or three regular sex workers, and I always say to them, you're not saving me for my existence, I'm choosing to work with you, and we have a good working relationship. But I don't take, I don't think you should, don't pat yourself on the back just yet because you didn't, you're not like, yes, it's it's a great thing you're doing. But it's all it also should be noted that I'm paying you. So we like, I really make it a working relationship. I mean, we have we have friendly times, we're friendly, like we'll text each other every few days, like, hey, what's up? How's your life? How are things? So it's friendly now. But I constantly remind people like, no, the sex worker isn't saving me from anything. I'm choosing this.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think that's, like a really important thing for a lot of people to remember. One of the things that I don't know if you know about this, which is that in the UK, or in England actually, from next September, September 2020, sex and relationships education is going to be compulsory in schools.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
They've, the government has issued some guidance on this. And whilst it does state that, like LGBTQ+ stuff should be woven throughout and, and should be inclusive, from my memory, like off the top of my head, I don't remember seeing anything about disability.
Andrew Gurza
Of course.
Hannah Witton
So I was wondering, in your opinion, what, what should young people be learning, in like sex ed, or relationships education as well, like about disability? Come on, if you could write the curriculum.
Andrew Gurza
Do we have six hours? So what they should be learning is, first of all, they should be learning from a disabled educator. So their teacher who is not disabled, shouldn't be standing up there reading off a thing about disability, they should like, actively be hiring people from the UK like, hey, Emily Rose Yates, I know you're out there, and I know you're listening. So hi.
Hannah Witton
Emily, offer your service.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, they should be hiring people from the UK like, you know, like yourself too, to come and do this stuff, so that the disabled people in the room can see somebody like themselves, talking about this stuff actively. And then, you know, talking about consent in a way that is more nuanced than yes and no. And, like, what does it mean, when you're disabled and you say yes to something? What does it mean, like, when I say yes to sex, it means I'm allowing for you to get me out of my chair, I'm allowing for you to undress me, because, I can't allowing for you to do the sex things that I can't do for both of us to feel pleasure. I'm allowing for you like, there's so many things, when you say yes to sex as a disabled person, there's so much more than just yes and no. So teaching kids teaching, or anybody, teaching youth about what that looks like, and how consent is not just yes or no.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I think also, like, there's so many, like, materials that teachers use, whether that's like videos, or like illustrations and stuff, and just like having some of those characters that you use to demonstrate stuff, like being disabled, as well.
Andrew Gurza
Oh yeah, it would be so powerful if like, Johnny got his first erection in his wheelchair, you know, stuff. And I've always thought that it's really important. And I also think one of the things that they should be learning about, that they're not, is disabled people are allowed to take risks. So in Canada, in our current in Ontario, the province where I'm in, there's a little tiny bit in the curriculum about disability, and it's always like, talk to your disabled student about sex, because they're at risk; they could be at risk to be abused, to be to be hurt.
Hannah Witton
The statistics for that are significantly high.
Andrew Gurza
So high. I can't remember exactly what they're like, it's disturbingly high, so that's valid. But also, like, disabled people are allowed to do risky things in their sex lives. Like sometimes when I have sex, I choose not to use condoms. And I remember going to my GP and telling her that and being honest, and she was like, you know, given that you're disabled, it could be more risky for you, and I was like, why? Show me the link between show me that, and she couldn't, and I was like, okay, I'm telling you that. My bigger point is like, disabled people are allowed to do messy irresponsible things, and that's okay. Like we shouldn't be protecting them from the reality of sex, which is whether you're disabled or not, you can choose to do whatever you want, and sometimes that's not the greatest choice, but you made it
Hannah Witton
And it's almost like that educating people to of like the different options that are out there, and what choices that they can make, and giving them the tools depending on what choices they make, of how to, I don't know, if there are like any repercussions, like be able to be like okay, this is how I handle this situation. Oh, it went slightly poorly, I've been equipped with the tools, I know what to do next now.
Andrew Gurza
But we're not giving disabled kids tools. When I was in school 20 years ago, we watched the birthing video, I giggled my way through.
Hannah Witton
Oh my God, you saw that as well.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
We all saw it. I can't believe they showed that, I was like 12 or 13. I got to see that, but not have, I don't think they told me what the clitoris was.
Andrew Gurza
Oh god. I don't know. I was queer, so I was watching all this stuff going -
Hannah Witton
How is this relevant?
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, this doesn't relate to me. And I wasn't out yet. So I was like, I was like, like show me some dick. That's what I wanted to see. I wanted to see like, show me something that I would be able to navigate.
Hannah Witton
You were like, Miss, Sir, when are you gonna show some dick?
Andrew Gurza
Excuse me. You know, I was a giggling nervous kid, kinda like right now. And so I, they told me at one point, do you want to just not do health class, you can like, do some physiotherapy. And I was like, no, of course I want to do health class.
Hannah Witton
Nima, who was in the disability and sex roundtable I did, she said that that was her experience as well. Like, the teachers were like, oh, I think they took the disabled kids out of the sex ed class.
Andrew Gurza
So awful.
Hannah Witton
And you're just like, what? why? Like, how is, why do you think this is not relevant to them? Especially when, like, you were saying about the risks of like relationship abuse when it comes to being disabled, like the stats for that are like so high. So you're just then leaving them to their own devices, and not educating them on the fact that like, how to, you know, be able to like, fend for yourself and -
Andrew Gurza
Like protect yourself when shit like that goes down. And it's just so it's so scary that that stuff still happening. Like didn't Ireland just pass a law, like last year, that was that finally allowed for people with Down Syndrome to have, there was a law there -
Hannah Witton
I don't know.
Andrew Gurza
Where like, if you're intellectually disabled, you weren't allowed to have sex.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow, I didn't know.
Andrew Gurza
There were two intellectually disabled people in Ireland, like they made a movie about it and I watched it, it's a docu series, I can't remember what it was called.
Hannah Witton
No, I've not heard about that.
Andrew Gurza
An amazing film. I can't remember what it was called at all, unfortunately. But there was a law there that if you were two intellectually disabled people wanting to have sex, they couldn't. Because apparently neither of them could consent to what sex was. Which is so backwards.
Hannah Witton
But then did the law say that an intellectually disabled person and then someone who wasn't, could have sex? Because almost in there, there's more of a power dynamic.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah. I don't remember, but I will double check.
Hannah Witton
Now we're just like hypothesising, like, what is the law? So one thing that has come up a lot for me in like the last year and a half, I guess, since since I became disabled and like, as a sex educator now, like, working in this space, and like learning so much, you're like, one of the names that like, everyone's just like, oh my god, I have to speak to Andrew Gurza.
Andrew Gurza
Which, first of all, is terrifying, because like, everyone knows who I am. And I do all my stuff from, I do my stuff from my bedroom.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
So like, when people tell me that, like, Oh, my God, I, you're, you know, big, a big name. I'm like, what, really? Cuz I just, you know, I don't, I try to be really humble about it, because it's nice, but it's also it's also like, my awkward kid is like, what? Oh, there's this pressure to do so. But thank you. Yes.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, your name kept coming up, and just like, you have to talk to him. And another thing that like, so I've been, this has been a learning process for me, this last year and a half, like a lot of things that I'd never considered really, as someone who was able bodied. And one thing that continually comes up is people being really nosy and almost like fetishizing disabled people and being like, how do you actually have sex, but it's not really coming from a good place. It's just like -
Andrew Gurza
I want to know, because I want to know, because I deserve to know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like this sense of entitlement and also like this, almost like, freak show aspect of it. So like, there's that side of it, that is awful. But then on the other side, I'm like, okay, but where do young disabled people go to learn how they actually do have sex? And like, what positions might work for them, and what sex acts might work for them, or what might not? And so, yeah, this isn't this isn't something that I've broached before. But I thought you'd be a great person to ask is like, where is that line? And how do we ask those questions appropriately, and in a way that isn't harmful, but it's helpful for young disabled people figuring out? And maybe even like older, disabled people figuring it out as well.
Andrew Gurza
I also think it's important for young, non disabled, people to have this information because -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
What if you're attracted to like a young, disabled, person and you want to spend time with them, on get intimate, and you don't know how to do that. They also deserve, you know, a guide on how to do that. And so I think the question of, how do you have sex is really basic, and really, like, kind of it's, it's so boring and out done, it's constantly asked of us all the time. The question should be, how does sex and disability feel for you? Like it should be nuanced. Let's talk about not just the mechanics of how you have sex, because with every disabled person, the mechanics are vastly different. So I can't give you what. And some days with the same disability with the same person, the mechanics are different. So it doesn't, I don't know how I have sex sometimes, it just happens. I can tell you how it feels.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
And I think disabled kids need that piece, and the piece about intimacy, and like, why sex feels good. And why it's sometimes okay to be slutty and disabled. You know, it's okay to do all those things. But like we teach sex and disability as this big thing, when you can just distil it down into like, okay, how does it feel right now? And like, talking about even just the disabled body, and talking about, like, how does your disabled body feel today? How does it feel when when like the caregiver touches here versus a lover, like getting into the stuff that happens to us every day, that we don't talk about. And one of the big things we don't talk about is touch. I get touched all the time by people that I would rather not have touch me, but it's their job, and I have to get up, and that's what we do. But like, so I think disabled kids need those discussions first, and able body kids too, of like, hey, how does, or asking able body kids, like, how do you think disability feels? Like getting them to confront their own ableism first, because we all have it in us, to be ableist, we don't talk about it enough. And that's why it becomes this like big, scary thing. And that's why somebody with no disabilities can say, oh, I just wanted to know. Well, yeah, great, but if you understood about ableism, you wouldn't ask it like that, because it's rude.
Hannah Witton
I really loved that about how it, how it feels. Because sometimes I think even when it comes to the sex ed that we do have, which is often like very focused on like, heteronormative, able bodies, even when it comes to that kind of sex, and the kind of sex advice that gets thrown around a lot, it is all about the mechanics. It's like, try this new position, and like this is how you maintain an erection, and like, this is how you can achieve orgasm, and it's like, all very mechanical -
Hannah Witton
Rather than like, about yeah, like, how does that touch feel? And and how, what about that sensation, and like -
Andrew Gurza
Yeah.
Andrew Gurza
What did you like about that? Or what did you not like? With one of my sex workers, we see each other about every two to three weeks, and he'll come over and we'll watch like some ridiculous TV together, and sometimes we won't even have sex, we'll just be in the same room, naked with each other, with the possibility of sex like there. But we don't have to do anything, and that feels, that can feel really great because like, there's no pressure to orgasm, there's no pressure to perform. And I remember saying to the sex worker, like, please don't put on your, whatever persona you want to do, like, just walk in my space and be yourself. Because in my space, as a disabled person, when they have to get me out of my chair, and put me in the bed and undress me, I can't, there's no performance in that, I can't like, make that sexy. That's just part of my disabled experience. So I try to just tell the people that I work with, and I predominantly work with sex workers now because it's easier than trying to meet somebody the conventional way, and I rather pay money for exactly what I want versus like, maybe the guy will block me, maybe they'll be weird, like, I'd rather just pay the money, and know what I'm getting, and feel comfortable in that. And so like, I say to them, like, let's just come in this space and be yourself with me for however many hours we booked together, and then we can both enjoy ourselves. Versus you feeling like you have to give me this performance. Because that's not fun for me. I want to just, I want, I crave intimacy more than I do, like I'm going to suck your dick for four hours. I don't care about that, I care about what are we doing in that time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's not like about what you do, but like, how you do it, and, and how it feels -
Andrew Gurza
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. Me and my partner, like, I think I'd just got back from being away or something, so we haven't, like had sex and ages. And I was like, right, come on, and we, and we go into the bedroom and we just like lying on the bed, clothed, and then we just start talking. And then we're like, talking for about an hour and then he goes, alright, I'm gonna go to the office and just like, you know, what he does in the office, just watch videos and stuff. And I was like, okay, we didn't have sex. He's like, no, but we had a great chat. And it's like, yeah, we did. And then that was it!
Andrew Gurza
But that's I mean that's -
Hannah Witton
And it was lovely.
Andrew Gurza
Sometimes more powerful than like, yeah, gonna do this to you.
Hannah Witton
And I don't remember the last time that like we actually both lay on a bed, clothed and had like a really long conversation. Because most of the time that we spend in bed is like, we are naked, and we're sleeping. Like that is the majority of the time that gets spent there. And yeah, so yeah, that that kind of like intimacy and, and everything.
Andrew Gurza
And I think that intimacy is really important too because like, in particular care environments, like when I'm dealing with my attendant, I have to be, I need this, I need this, I have to really lay it out for them. So when I get those moments to just stop and be with somebody, in whatever way that looks like, to watch a silly TV show, to like maybe have some sexual, some sexual conduct if we want to, or not. I mean, usually we do because he's hot, and I'm not gonna say no. Usually we do, but you know, to be able to say, hey, wanted to watch TV today. Want to just, like, hang out for an hour with me. And yeah, I paid money for that. But to know that I can just sit and chat with somebody and not have anything happen, and no expectations to perform, feels really good. And disability has given me that.
Hannah Witton
What are like some of the things that I guess you've learned in your work, like in terms of teaching about this stuff, or consulting about this stuff. What are the things that like, are always coming up that you're like, people need to know about this?
Andrew Gurza
I mean, I just think we need to confront our ableism. I think we just need to talk way more about that, that needs to be the front and centre of everything. Even the most well intentioned person can be super ableist and not realise it. Like, I just think we need to talk more about the language we use, we need to talk more about how disability generally, not in terms of sexuality, but how disability feels generally because I think a lot of us who are disabled, have emotions about disability, we don't talk about because people are afraid that if they share that, that they're going to be seen as weak or needy or, or, you know, disabled or whatever it is. But if we start sharing what disability feels like, we can change the narrative.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and almost, I guess, the stories that we do see, it is often a disabled person being like, I love my disability, like, look how empowered I am. And yeah, and actually showing that like really wide range of emotions that that can come with it.
Andrew Gurza
It's like, it's like, all we see is either you're a pitiable, sad, disabled person who cries about their disability all the time, or you are rising above your disability to enable yourself to look past your disability. And I keep saying no, in both of the instances, we need to stare at disability in the face, figure out what it feels like, and talk about that, whatever that is. And so with my show, it used to be just about sex and disability, and I'm branching it out to be disability everything because there's so much stuff we don't talk about that needs to be explored, like, lack of health care services for disabled people, like you know, lack of travel vacation options for disabled people. Like flying, like getting to Paris, was a shit show. My chair broke down, well, we thought they busted it and they wouldn't help us. They're like, just things like that need to be talked about. And they like, like, so I'm really trying to branch into how does disability feel generally and then getting people to share that with me.
Hannah Witton
So how does your disability feel to you?
Andrew Gurza
Oh, I -
Hannah Witton
Big question.
Andrew Gurza
I knew it was coming but I'm still like, hmm.
Hannah Witton
You asked for it.
Andrew Gurza
I really did. Some days I love it. And some days I don't. Like I'm I, I'll be really honest, I think it's great, and it's empowered me to - it's so funny that we just talked about empowerment.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Andrew Gurza
It's empowered me to do a lot of things. I'm very grateful for it. But there are days where I'm like, fuck, I really wish that I wasn't disabled today. I really wish that I, like you when you rang through and I couldn't get to the door to get you in. I was like, I wish that I could just go. Like so there are moments where I just wish that I couldn't, that I didn't have to deal with all the stuff that I have to deal with. But really, I'm will always be proud to be disabled, but I'm starting to explore, like, disability and anger, because I think a lot of us are also really angry all the time. And we don't know how to express that because everyone's told us that we have to be happy and be positive all the time.
Hannah Witton
Be grateful for what we do have.
Andrew Gurza
And what if you're just fucking mad. And how do you -
Hannah Witton
Oh my god, I feel you. When we finish recording this we can we can just have a scream.
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, let's just have a big, yes, and people will come running in, like what's happening. No, but I just think that disability anger is so powerful because everyone has it. And everyone that I've talked to about it has said, just like you said, oh, yeah, I really feel that, but I have no idea where to put that because I know there's no space for it. So I'm trying to open up a space for that, to just let people share whatever they're feeling about it, in a way that gets it off their chest.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think also, maybe one of the reasons why disabled people don't share those kinds of feelings is because they might think that it will inconvenience people.
Andrew Gurza
Oh yeah. And also the stigma of like, if I'm angry all the time, I will fall into that stereotype of being the angry disabled person all the time. So we're taught from young age to be really happy all the time, about everything, and that's just not. And then you get to my age where like, you're 35 and you're pissed off and you don't know why and like, you can't talk to somebody about it because no one has to help you. And so I've just reached a point recently where like, I'm looking for a disabled therapist, because I want to sit across from somebody who has an experience of disability. So then, when I say like, oh, my disability did this today. They can go, yeah, I don't have the same thing as you, but yes, I get that, and here's how I understand that. Usually, when I when I've done therapy in the past, it's me teaching the able bodied therapist all about what disability means for me, and so I'm like, why did I, why?
Hannah Witton
Why am I paying you for this?
Andrew Gurza
Yeah, why did I pay for this?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, they should hire you as a consultant.
Andrew Gurza
That's what I said. I was like, hey, hire me. I'm right here. Like, yes -
Hannah Witton
I think I can help you, more than you can help me in this scenario.
Andrew Gurza
Pay me the money.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. This has been brilliant. Thank you so much for chatting with me.
Andrew Gurza
This was such a fun, I'm so excited for this to come out. And I'm also, I just want to say your work is great. I have been following you for a long time now, and so when you like DM's me back, like we should do this. I was like, yes, please. Yes.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Yes. I'm so glad that we can make this happen. And thank you for listening. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast.