Disability, Sex, Relationships & Dating: Roundtable Discussion | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Emily Yates
We also have something called the Queen Bee that's like a clitoral stimulator, I think they call it. And basically if you've got limited dexterity, so you can't move your hand all the way down, it's got a really long handle, so you can kind of hold the top of the handle, and it'll do the job for you.
Hannah Witton
Just minimal effort from you.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
This is going to look great in sign language, just kind of being acted out over there.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, this is a very exciting episode because it is Sexual Health Week, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop. This year the theme is sex and disability.
Hannah Witton
Now if you didn't know, I'm an ambassador for Brook, who are a sexual health charity here in the UK, for under 25s, and you can head to their website for lots of content and resources around Sexual Health Week. And this episode is actually a roundtable discussion that was originally posted in video form on my YouTube channel last year. It premiered at Buffer Festival in Toronto 2018, and now it is here for you in podcast form. Oh yeah, that's right.
Hannah Witton
Some of you may have already seen this video, but for those who haven't, my round table guests are Emily Yates, Jessica Kellgren-Fozard, Nima Misra, and Charlie Willis, and together we talk about our experiences with dating, relationships, and sex, when being disabled. We talk about misconceptions, challenges, and benefits to the whole situation. So I really hope that you enjoy this episode, and definitely check out the content and resources around Sexual Health Week, and thank you so much for listening, happy Sexual Health Week.
Hannah Witton
So thank you all for joining me and being here. So I'm Hannah, I'm going to be moderating our chat about disability, and sex, and dating, and relationships. And we've got Nima, Charlie, Jessica, and Emily. And first of all, I thought we could go around and just say what our disability condition is. Nima:
Nima Misra
Okay, so I had cancer in my spine when I was three months old, which left me with weakness. It crushed all the nerves basically, in my lower spine. So I've got weakness of the legs, and the conditions called paraparesis. So it just means that the muscles are weak, and that like the upper body is okay, but it's just partial paralysis of the legs.
Charlie Willis
Yeah, I've got cerebral palsy, spastic diplegia edition.
Hannah Witton
Edition, disability 2.0.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I love that, it sounds like you can collect them as well.
Emily Yates
Were you thinking of that for like 20 minutes before?
Charlie Willis
No, I've used it before.
Nima Misra
We could trade disability cards.
Charlie Willis
My legs are much more affected than my upper body. And yeah, so the spasticity is much more caused in my legs and that means that I have issues with walking and standing for long periods of time.
Emily Yates
That leads me to not say very much, because I've also got cerebral palsy, of the same edition.
Hannah Witton
Do you get points for that or something?
Emily Yates
I mean, I should do really.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, okay. Wow, I have a thing, I have a heredity disability called hereditary neuropathy with liability pressure palsies, with mixed connective tissue disorder, which also leads to postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome.
Hannah Witton
Totally going to remember this.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, it's fine. No one needs to remember what the hell that is. But basically it has a range of symptoms. So it affects my nerves, muscles, organs, my hearing, I am deaf. This is my sign interpreter, Ruthanne. She's gonna be here, telling me what the hell you guys are saying. And also chronic pain, chronic fatigue, all that good stuff that comes with it. I think that's it. I've probably forgotten something.
Hannah Witton
And I have a chronic illness, ulcerative colitis, and in January I had surgery to remove my colon and I now have a stoma bag. So, let's get into this. First of all, I want to know what your guy's sex education was like growing up, whether that was like in school, or from parents, family, the internet, and did it meet your needs?
Emily Yates
I've got quite a good story about this.
Hannah Witton
Ooo, do tell.
Emily Yates
So my sex education at school was pretty horrendous, as I can almost guarantee most of ours might have been. Before I lost my virginity, obviously the sex education that I'd had, none of the bodies in any of the videos related to what my body looks like, and can and can't do. And remember the banana, the condom on the banana.
Hannah Witton
We put it on a test tube, which is just so not accurate.
Nima Misra
A bit too delicate.
Emily Yates
So I remember that, but that is pretty much all I remember, aside from looking at these bodies and thinking, oh my goodness, I'm not going to be able to do that. So before I lost my virginity, I remember saying to my, my auntie, and my twin sister, oh my goodness, I'm really nervous about this. I have no idea what my body is going to be able to do, what positions it's going to be able to get in. Is it going to be really painful? So they said, right, okay, let's solve this problem before you lose your virginity. And they took me into the back bedroom of my Auntie's house, and we practiced positions on each other.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
No!
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Emily Yates
So that is my sex education, everybody. What an amazing family.
Nima Misra
That is incredible.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
That is love, right there.
Emily Yates
Isn't it, weirdly.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
That is awesome. I guess mine's kind of the same. My parents are Quakers, and they have a policy that children, children are on an equal level with adults, and any question child asks should be answered with the full and completely honest truth.
Hannah Witton
I love that.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I knew way too much, way too young. So when I was four, I walked up to my mother and I was like, mummy, so I know that men can love men. She was like yes, darling, yes. Like, but then what? And boy, was that an experience. Like two hours of sex education, on man on man sex. I was like, well, okay, I know everything now.
Hannah Witton
A fully enlightened four year old
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, yeah. I think probably by the time I'd started primary school, I knew mostly everything there was to know.
Nima Misra
How did that affect you when you're like, when other people were learning about stuff, other kids and your friends?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Oh, so they would come to me and ask me questions to go and ask my mum, and then come back the next day. So I was like that little education train. They can't be like, what happens when..and I'm like, hmm, good question. Mummy? And thorough answers, thorough.
Nima Misra
Can I ask your mum a few questions?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Sure, If you'd like her number, she's always available.
Emily Yates
I seem to remember my sister asked if, we were on a drive somewhere, and my sister asked my mom what a blow job was. And I think we were about nine. And my mum literally nearly crashed the car. Like she was like, don't ever ask me a question like that, ever again. So I think I needed your mum a little bit.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Like complete opposite of my parents. Any question that I asked always got the answer, even if it was like taxes. What are taxes, parents? They'd be like, let's sit.
Hannah Witton
And you wished you'd never asked.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
So I used to try and sometimes look stuff up before I asked my parents, just to check if I wanted to know the answer.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, Google. Google is your friend. The Internet.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I'm not that young.
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, I'm now just remembering we didn't have the internet.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Google wasn't actually around when I was four.
Hannah Witton
No, not for me, either. I'm just remembering.
Nima Misra
What did we do?
Hannah Witton
Dial up.
Charlie Willis
Oh yeah .
Hannah Witton
I wanted to also ask like, if your formal sex education in school, or from parents, maybe wasn't as thorough as that.
Nima Misra
We didn't talk about it in my family?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, where did you get that information from then?
Nima Misra
We didn't talk about it. We just say we don't talk about sex in my family, just because we are traditional, like Indian household in that you don't really talk about that kind of stuff. And it's not that it's taboo, or that my parents don't want me having sex. We just they just think we don't need to talk about it. So it's pretty, it's a traditional point of view. But at my school, it was, I went to a mainstream school with a unit attached where you know, the if you had an impairment, you would go and get your treatment, your physio, you know, there was someone to talk to, you had your PAs that helped in lessons. And the majority of the kids, when we were going through sex education, were removed from the sessions.
Charlie Willis
Oh, wow.
Nima Misra
And yeah, yeah, so and I was just like, no, I want to stay. Because I feel like I, I felt like I couldn't necessarily relate to the images that I saw. But I related to the fact that I did want a relationship, and I did want to have sex at some point, and I wanted to have those experiences in life. But I think they just assumed that the other guys didn't.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It's so important to know things though. Knowledge is power.
Nima Misra
And if you don't feel like you're gonna grow up to be loved, and have affection, and you know intimacy, you know you're in a lonely place. It's not very nice.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting that was just like, by default just assumed.
Nima Misra
A little bit backward.
Hannah Witton
Llike, this isn't relevant to you.
Nima Misra
Despite having the unit which, you know, was supposed to be empowering and enabling us to study alongside able bodied students. It was really strange. It was odd. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
What's, uh, so where did you end up learning about all this stuff? And then like, specifically for your needs.
Nima Misra
My friends.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Nima Misra
Yeah, my able bodied friends, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like Jessica.
Nima Misra
Jessica's mum.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
We would've been there for you.
Charlie Willis
I think for me, I looked up a lot of questions online. And I was like, sites, I remember one called Ask Alice that used to be around a little while ago. And that was based in the in the US, because I was literally kind of asking questions around the kind of, am I normal? kind of stuff. Largely because yes, my body wasn't necessarily represented in the, in the sex ed that we were having. But also, because the sex ed just didn't go far enough in regards to how I was feeling, in relation to my body, and things like that. And it also didn't, it didn't really explore anything to do with sexuality. And I knew that I wasn't, I knew that I wasn't straight, probably when I was about 14 or 15. And so I was on, like, various different forums, and just kind of asking questions, and trying to find a peer network through that, but then again, not a lot of people there were disabled. And so it's this kind of crossover between LGBT identity and disability, where that kind of community doesn't necessarily exist as strongly as it may do for a disability community or an LGBT community.
Emily Yates
Totally.
Hannah Witton
Just a lot of lack of information on both sides.
Charlie Willis
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
And then added together.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Fun fact, 1/3 of LGBTQ plus people have a disability or mental health condition. And that's only the people who are willing to disclose.
Charlie Willis
There's actually a really high crossover between those two groups of people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And it always surprises me that there isn't enough education about disability and sex as well, because even like say if you're looking at your class that you've got to teach you're like oh, but none of my students are disabled, but they might end up in a relationship with somebody who is.
Nima Misra
Or they might have a hidden impairment.
Charlie Willis
Or they acquire the disability, and things like that.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Then of course that leads onto the discussion of like with like, of how they think that a disabled person's only going to end up with a disabled person.
Emily Yates
Yes, we were talking about this earlier, weren't we.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness, have you experienced any of that firsthand, of people expecting you to date other disabled people?
Emily Yates
When I when I talk about my boyfriend, one of the first questions is, oh is he in a wheelchair too. Like, they almost get quite excited about it. And you know, I say no, and it's almost like, oh, wow, okay, so how did you meet each other? And they're really surprised at right, okay, so a non disabled and a disabled person have got together, and how possibly can this mysterious thing have happened? And you were saying as well when you're about the saint, the angel -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, so I'm married to my wonderful wife, Claudia. And, and yeah, we make videos together, on YouTube, and one of the most common things, and she is just like, Claudia is such an angel. She's such a saint. She's such a wonderful person. And like, she is really grumpy in the mornings sometimes. She's not a saint, but just the very idea that someone who is able bodied would deign to date someone with a disability. They must be such a good person to go through that.
Nima Misra
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I am lovely. Okay. She gets a lot from this relationship.
Hannah Witton
And I guess it like puts them as like, above human.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And the person saying that is placing themselves as human like, well, as a human, I wouldn't date a disabled person. I'm not I'm not angelic enough to like, put up with that.
Charlie Willis
Because that sees disability as something negative, or bad.
Emily Yates
Undesirable.
Charlie Willis
Yeah, I had a, I had a previous partner, actually, that said to me, wouldn't you be happier in a relationship with another disabled person?
Nima Misra
I've had that said to me as well.
Charlie Willis
And it's just -
Hannah Witton
What's the logic there?
Charlie Willis
I have no idea.
Nima Misra
I think they think they're being helpful, and they're being nice, and they're trying to give us positive advice.
Hannah Witton
And your life would be easier.
Nima Misra
Yes. And you know, you'd have somebody that understands you. Well, not necessarily, because we're both, you know, what, we've both been down different paths in life.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Also being disabled is not we're not a monolithic force. We don't all have exactly the same experience.
Emily Yates
Very true.
Nima Misra
Right.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Of exactly the same type of disability that has affected our lives, in exactly the same way. Even if you're thinking about like, oh, if you are disabled, and you date someone who's also disabled, you won't face as much ableism in your relationship. You're like, well, disabled people can be ablest in different ways.
Emily Yates
Very true. Very true.
Charlie Willis
And it's also how kind of that interaction, so say if I, you know, all of my partners have not been, have been non disabled. And they've often been asked questions of, why you with this person? Why do you want to be with this person? And those kinds of things. And how, you know, how does it make you feel if you have to carry their pint all the time, or whatever it is?
Emily Yates
Like it's such a chore
Charlie Willis
I know, but see that question then comes back to me, because that person is feeling kind of as if they needed an answer, if they need to say something, and then often that can lead to some kind of step on the way towards a relationship breakdown. Because then you realise that that person does feel as if some of these things are a chore because they didn't, or weren't able to actively challenge it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I was actually gonna ask that, have your partner's ever experienced, like weird or nasty comments, because they're dating a disabled person?
Emily Yates
Not that I know of necessarily. I know that my ex boyfriend got quite a few questions at work around like, okay, so how do things work then? But in all honesty, I think sometimes, as long as those questions are meant with good intention, and the reasonably sensible in a way, I don't see the problem with that, because I think you might as well be asking somebody that knows the answer.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Emily Yates
Rather than just assuming, you know what I mean? In a way, it can dispel some more myths if it's asked and answered in the right way. I did once go through a really a really big, kind of tough time with an ex boyfriend. And I remember -
Nima Misra
I hate this story.
Emily Yates
I'm not going to tell the story.
Hannah Witton
I want to know now
Emily Yates
And somebody that I know said, just think about it, before you finish things with him because you might not have another able bodied boyfriend again.
Charlie Willis
I've heard, I've had similar things.
Hannah Witton
Ouch
Emily Yates
Just stay in the relationship and be really unhappy, because you might not have a non disabled partner ever again.
Charlie Willis
I've had similar things but it was said to me by the person that I was in a relationship with.
Hannah Witton
Like, as in to try and make you stay in the relationship?
Charlie Willis
Yeah, so -
Nima Misra
They said you should stay with me because you're basically not going to do any better.
Charlie Willis
Not quite those words, but yeah, pretty much.
Hannah Witton
The sentiment.
Nima Misra
Ew. Did you break up with them straight away?
Charlie Willis
I wish I had the strength to, but I didn't.
Nima Misra
I know how that feels.
Emily Yates
God. I think this is, I think I'm going to find this quite hard to go through, we're only 10 minutes in!
Nima Misra
No, but guys, this is a really big problem. Like I've spent my whole life feeling a little bit substandard, and when I'm looking to date a guy, if he is able bodied, I've spoken to like therapist about this where I just think, oh, if you've got a shelf of toys, and one's broken, and one's fixed and shiny and new, why would you go for the broken one? And that's how I felt up until like, seriously!
Charlie Willis
Sorry, I wasn't trying to laugh. It's because it's it just got me like, it -
Nima Misra
You can empathise
Charlie Willis
Yeah, I can totally empathise it's just, for some reason, this time we came out with a laugh.
Emily Yates
Shall we all hold hands across the table whilst we talk.
Charlie Willis
No guys, honestly, it plagues me.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I'm with you, holding hands seems like a good idea.
Emily Yates
Now it's just us doing it.
Charlie Willis
It is painful.
Nima Misra
It is painful. And I've started to try and like I'm better now, I don't think about myself in that way because at the end of the day, you know, you've gotta back yourself. And we should we should be our own biggest fan.
Emily Yates
Yes, girl.
Nima Misra
But it's hard. It's really hard. I'm not giving up, but it's just it's hard.
Hannah Witton
I can imagine like, to an extent because a lot of the weird internal thought process that I've been having, because I've acquired like, I've had the chronic illness since I was seven. But it's not really affected me until like this year with the surgery and everything. And I'm in a relationship, and I keep on having this thought process and I'm like, no, no, no like that, it's like really ableist thoughts, which is like, I'm so glad I'm in a relationship. I've no idea how I would cope if I was having to like be dating.
Nima Misra
I think that's a natural thought. I actually think all the thoughts that we have are actually perfectly normal and, you know, if you, of course you're going to feel like that from time to time. We just got to not let it plague us.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Like when you are dating, how do you deal with disclosing your disability? Like when, and how. I feel like you're like, oh -
Nima Misra
No, I just used to not say anything.
Hannah Witton
Oh, really?
Nima Misra
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And then just turn up
Nima Misra
And then the big, no, or just to kind of just get into the conversation towards the end, when it's when it's time for us to meet, and then it would be met with an instant ghosting. It didn't get me anywhere.
Hannah Witton
So this is when you're online dating.
Nima Misra
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I had a policy of I'm not wasting my time. I'm not going to kind of go, oh, yeah, I'm deaf which people, by the way, seem really weirdly okay with. Like when I was dating be like, yeah sure we can go on a first date, because I put on my profile, I'm deaf. So they were like yeah, okay, and then I turn up and be like right, now I'm gonna tell you about my entire condition, because I am not going to, you know, force out all of my energy for five dates with you, get emotionally invested, then tell you what's up, and you suddenly go. oh no, I don't have much time. So we are gonna discuss right now.
Nima Misra
How did you and Claudia meet?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
We met online, as most couples do nowadays. And actually, on our first date, she wanted to meet in a pub. And because I don't drink I don't really go to pubs that much. So I had to ask my flatmate what a good pub was. And I ordered a virgin cocktails, so it looked like I was drinking a regular cocktail. And she came in, and she thought that I was wearing a bluetooth headset, because my hearing aids
Nima Misra
Amazing.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. And then she didn't even question it, because she's that type of person.
Nima Misra
So you hadn't disclosed?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I guess I hadn't. I guess not. I think I was on a variety of different dating websites, and I think that one didn't have, I didn't, I hadn't said anything. Not on purpose, I just hadn't. Yeah, so she thought it was a bluetooth headset for about two hours into the date. And then I was like, no, I'm, I'm deaf. And she's like, oh, she just thought I was incredibly rude before that point. Otherwise, I was very much like, first date, I think I did it with Claud as well, first date, I was like, right, we're going to discuss my condition. This is what it is. This is what it means day to day. It means that I can't do these things. I'm never going to go on a hike with you. But, I am great at baking. And I'm really warm, I really love people, and friends, and blah blah blah. I like National Trust houses, so we can go to those together. All that kind of stuff, because I'm not going to waste my time.
Hannah Witton
There are a lot of people who don't like hiking, as well.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Indeed.
Hannah Witton
I was just gonna say because Jessica, you told me that you've been on 70 first dates.
Emily Yates
Wow
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Thanks. I've been on 70 first dates, and I've only been on three second dates in my life. And I'm married to one of them. So.
Emily Yates
That's insane.
Nima Misra
And exhausting.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And we only got married when I was 26
Hannah Witton
Yeah, how did you fit in all those dates? That's a lot of dating.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I was busy, I was so busy. I did, because my energy isn't huge, I try and schedule them in one after another. So I did like I go up to London, have three dates in a row, in one day.
Nima Misra
You minx, I like that.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I was like, I am determined to find my perfect lady. And my mother was like, good luck with that, have fun.
Nima Misra
But you did.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I did. exactly.
Nima Misra
See, it worked.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
No one thought I would find anyone.
Charlie Willis
And then if one worked, you could just cancel the next few.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Indeed.
Hannah Witton
Did you have two dates lined up after Claudia, and you were like cancel them quick?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I don't remember, I probably did. Like the weekend after, and then I met her, and I was like, this is true love. Go away, the rest of you can leave. It was quite like that, love at first sight.
Charlie Willis
What I find really odd, when you're often dating is, so for some of the guys that I've like went on first dates with through Grindr, or on whatever, often they would use the opportunity to then talk about their own relationship to disability that often wasn't theirs, but it was like someone in their family. And so and this would always make me feel extremely awkward because I wouldn't want to be making it about my disability, and often on the way to the date is when I would disclose and say by the way I walk with a stick, because I would then assume that kind of as I kind of explored this getting older, I kind of realised that if I put myself first, and I put what kind of the big thing that I think is out first, then if people aren't going to be interested in that, then they're not going to turn up and they're not going to be there, so I won't - I won't feel hurt by that as a as a result
Nima Misra
You're self protecting.
Charlie Willis
Yeah, exactly.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
You'd be less hurt by them not turning, than by if they did turn up, but then weren't interested.
Emily Yates
Saves yourself, doesn't it
Charlie Willis
Yeah, it's more kind of saving myself. Because if, if they had turned up and then made it more about my disability than I felt comfortable with, then I can remove myself. Whereas if I didn't say it, there would be all of the awkward questions that were related to the disability, the way I walked, why I needed them to carry my drink, whatever it might have been. And I would much rather have put all of that first to say, effectively, here's what you're getting involved with.
Nima Misra
This is the package
Charlie Willis
Yeah, this is me. And then if, if they then walked away at that point, I wasn't as hurt, as if -
Emily Yates
Yeah, totally. I am very forward with it, very straightforward. Because I think in a way, Nima, you might agree with me on this, I don't know. I think in a way, we're quite fortunate in the sense that our impairments are so so visible, that almost I can't go on a first date without saying anything.
Nima Misra
Exactly.
Emily Yates
Because if there's a restaurant with five steps up to it that the guy's taking me to, well, first date's over before it's even started, you know what I mean? So I almost, it's almost the only polite thing to do. Because that's on me, that's my responsibility to let that person know that I need access, it's not their responsibility to be a mind reader. It's their responsibility to be okay with it, be a good human being about it. But a physical disability quite often leads to physical access needs, which I've got to disclose. So it's almost helpful.
Nima Misra
We were saying, as well, it's almost a reflection on how cool you are with your own disability. I went through a phase where I wasn't, so I didn't disclose it. Whereas I'm getting more and more comfortable with it, and I'm just thinking, right, you know, this is like you said, this is me, this is the package, do you want it or not?
Hannah Witton
Because you went on First Dates.
Nima Misra
Yes, I did.
Hannah Witton
And I, from what I've seen of that show, they're really good at pairing people up. So what was that experience like for you?
Nima Misra
So I wanted, for me, I was going through a bit of a time in my life where I was having a crisis of confidence. So I was like, what's the scariest thing I can do to put myself out there and test myself.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I love that thought process.
Nima Misra
And see the reaction. And if I can go through this, and if I can put it on TV and like, have my deepest, darkest fears out for everybody to know and to judge, If I can do that, then you know what, I'm actually probably deep down, I'm probably alright with myself. So they put me with this really lovely guy. He was, you know, he was so nice. So he was just, he was cool, easy to talk to. He was a vet, and we were both into animals, we had a lot in common. We're talking about animals and stuff, but it didn't lead to romance. But it did lead to me thinking this is, you know, this is okay. How I am is okay. And yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's so cool, though that, yeah, like your thought process from like, this, like, hard time to I'm gonna go do this thing.
Nima Misra
I was fed up of being insecure about it. I was - I don't want to do that. I don't want to be that girl anymore.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I hate I would hate to have a first date where they didn't know that something was up with me.
Nima Misra
He didn't know. Yeah, he walked in, and he didn't even, he hadn't, I was scared he was gonna walk out. He had no idea. So - because I said I just wanted to be sitting down at the table, I didn't want to do a big reveal where the doors open and the the automatic doors, and here she comes, rolling in.
Hannah Witton
So you were already sat there.
Nima Misra
I was sat there. And yeah, it was up to him to kind of bring it up, I guess.
Emily Yates
I think one thing that's really amazing about that, that you probably didn't - I don't know, if he thought that this was going to happen, is that actually by challenging yourself and putting yourself out there, you've also really changed a lot of perceptions in society, and given all the people who are disabled that confidence to go, hell yeah. Yeah, I'm hot, and that's all right. You know, like, and that's amazing that you've done that. So fair play.
Nima Misra
Yeah, I appreciate that.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I'm gonna go watch that episode now. You'll have to tell me which one it is.
Hannah Witton
One thing I wanted to ask is that, do you think your disability opens up more communication around sex in a way that maybe able bodied people could learn from? Do you know what I mean?
Emily Yates
This is a tough one. So I was just saying to the taxi, so the taxi driver that brought me here, his first question was, been in a wheelchair all your life, love? That was the first thing he said to me. And I was thinking, Oh, God, I bet you got all the ladies don't you. But it actually led on to a really, really good conversation. So his daughter works for the Huffington Post, and I was saying to him that one of the first questions that I think a lot of us disabled people get asked if we go to a bar and someone finds is attractive is, hi, can you have sex?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like can you even -
Nima Misra
Oh my god, yes.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And everyone in school.
Emily Yates
Before, yeah, before there's any kind of introduction, before, I think you're really great, what are you interested in? re we gonna actually be compatible? It's, let's get this question out of the way, can you have sex?
Nima Misra
Hi, what's wrong with you? And can you have sex?
Emily Yates
Yeah. And you know what, I think people, they don't have awful intention about it, they're coming out with the best of intention. But the delivery is appalling. And secondly, it takes a long time to then lead that into an a chat of education and awareness, because quite often you just think fuck off.
Hannah Witton
Can't be bothered.
Emily Yates
Yeah. So I think that question, I think it's a tough one.
Hannah Witton
What about like in a relationship, though, because if there's other things you have to consider, and then you there's more things to talk about, do you think it helps?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think the most obvious thing for people who are having sex, and one or both of them are disabled, is exactly the same thing as when people are having sex, and they're both able bodied. It's just communication.
Nima Misra
Yeah.
Charlie Willis
Yeah, I think that it has the potential to like, because disabled people are so good, or can be very good, at adapting to new situations, and communicating our needs, and almost problem solving. Although in that, in this context, it doesn't sound so sexy.
Hannah Witton
Love a bit of problem solving.
Charlie Willis
I think because of that, and because we're so used to the questions, and talking about our impairments, it can often lead to better communication in relationships. But I think that, again, you know, we are, we are all human as well. Also we can be extremely fallible in regards to not communicating what we want, or what we need, in the same way as well.
Hannah Witton
Speaking of sexy problem solving, so what are like some practical things that can assist disabled people with sex, because one of the things that I was thinking about is like with my stoma bag, it like part of it it's attached to me, and then the rest of it like is flapping around, and that can just get in the way. And my sexy problem solving has been crotchless high waisted underwear.
Emily Yates
Amazing.
Nima Misra
Yeah, that is sexy.
Hannah Witton
Oh, and like also like full body sexy thing.
Emily Yates
Like lacy short, playsuit things.
Hannah Witton
So it like keeps the stoma bag in place.
Emily Yates
Yes, Hannah!
Hannah Witton
Thank you. That's my sexy problem solving.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Or some kind of cool corset thing.
Hannah Witton
Anything that keeps it down, but then, access.
Emily Yates
I think a lot of my biggest, so I've written a few articles on this. And I think one of my biggest kind of tips to people is look at what you're already using. So even though it doesn't look at, a lot of equipment that disabled people already have in the house and already use, can be made really sexy. So if you've got hoist, turn it into a sex swing.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow, yes, yes, yes
Emily Yates
If you've got a handle by your bed, that you need to help transferring you in and out of a bed, stick some handcuffs on it, man. You know what I mean? You can you can make these things sexy, you've just gotta turn your mind to it. Yeah, and I think that's why that's amazing.
Hannah Witton
That's really cool.
Nima Misra
We get a lot of questions into the Love Lounger at Enhance the UK, don't we? And you in particular, you were answering those for a long time. And you were saying that people often like, talk about wedges.
Emily Yates
Yeah, yeah.
Nima Misra
What do the wedges do?
Emily Yates
So sex furniture, if you like, so there's quite a few companies that do this and they're really expensive. So you know what, cut some form up, and put a pillowcase on it, and do it yourself. But if for example, you get a lot of back pain, or pelvic pain, or something like that, you can, you can almost create a wedge. So instead of using pillows, have a bit of a foam wedge, so that your body is positioned to make it a lot more comfortable for kind of deeper penetration, and things like that. And it's amazing, it's amazing what you could do if you just put your mind to it a little bit.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, pillows, everything.
Emily Yates
Yeah, absolutely.
Nima Misra
We've actually been working with a company to try and design some disabled friendly sex toys. Yeah, so for example, if you find it difficult to grip, there'll be some sort of like a helpful grip on there. It's just in its infancy at the moment, but I mean that there is a demand for it. There is a demand for -
Hannah Witton
I've seen some that have like, it's not something that you like necessarily hold, but it's got like a hook in it. So you can grip it that way.
Nima Misra
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. There's like lots of different things.
Emily Yates
Hot Octopus is also a really good company.
Nima Misra
Hot Octopus?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've heard of them.
Emily Yates
So they have, they have, do they call it a guy-vibrator?
Charlie Willis
I know the thing you mean
Emily Yates
A vibrator for guys. And you can use it whether you're hard or not, like amazing if you've got a medical issue, and you now struggle -
Charlie Willis
Yeah, it's like a thing that goes round it, like vibrating plates.
Emily Yates
Yeah. Yeah, and we also have something called the Queen Bee. That's like a clitoral stimulator, I think they call it. And basically, if you've got limited dexterity, so you can't move your hand all the way down, it's got a really long handle so you can kind of hold the top of the handle and it'll do the job for you.
Hannah Witton
Just minimal effort from you.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
This looks great in sign language.
Emily Yates
Sorry!
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Just kind of being acted out over there.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to like, jump back to Emily, what you said earlier about the question of, can you even have sex? And the like impact this question has, but then also what it says about society's desexualization of disabled people.
Emily Yates
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Because they're saying that, and I feel like I feel like there's a hidden question behind it. It's like, can you even have sex, but also their thinking is -
Emily Yates
Is it okay?
Hannah Witton
They want to know, but they don't want to as well, maybe?
Emily Yates
I think personally there's a big problem, and jump in guys, but I think that like disabled people are quite infantilized, so when people ask a question, can you even have sex? What they're also really asking is, is it okay for me to fancy you?
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah.
Emily Yates
Because you're seen as somebody who's not sexual, a bit childlike, that needs care, and actually, I do fancy you, flippy hell, you're really hot, you're really hot. But I don't feel that it's right, too. And I think that's almost like a second question in itself. But of course nobody nobody, even the people that ask, can you even have sex, would kind of ask that
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I found definitely, from my 70 first dates, that they had quite an even split, in that when I explained my condition to them, people go one of two ways. They either go the, oh my god, no, I cannot cope with this, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna leave at the end of this date. Okay, bye. Or they go, oh, and suddenly, and you can see it in their eyes, and they go from like, hey, you're cute to like, aw.
Nima Misra
Yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And you're like, oh for christ sake. And maybe it has a lot to do with being a lesbian, as well, because I've only ever dated women. So maybe it's a woman thing. I don't know. But it kind of goes from like -
Emily Yates
There is actually a thing called the care fetish.
Nima Misra
Yes, the care fetish.
Emily Yates
That I think you're totally touching on.
Hannah Witton
Is that the same, different, to devotee?
Emily Yates
Well, it's a fetishism, in a way, of disability. Some, are we talking about devoteeism now? Shall we?
Hannah Witton
We can, yeah.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Let's jump in.
Nima Misra
Em did a documentary on it.
Hannah Witton
Oh, you did!
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah. She's the expert.
Emily Yates
It's a little bit dark, and bizarre, and it was quite, the way that it all came out was quite sensationalised, which is not remotely what I meant, or why I went into the journey of doing it. It was for education and awareness purposes, and it didn't quite turn out like that. But devotees, in a very very broad sense, find disabled people, and disability, sexually arousing.
Nima Misra
They find the struggle attractive, don't they?
Emily Yates
Yeah. So there's there's two things. And not every devotee feels like this, absolutely not. But there's a care fetish, where people get off on that idea of looking after somebody. And there's also something called the struggle fetish, where some devotees get off on for example, if I was putting my supermarket carrier bags in the back of my car, and then transferring into my car, someone would be watching me and getting off on the fact that I was struggling to do all of that and get into my car. Um so there's those two thing. And you know, what's really important to say that some disabled people find devoteeism really really, liberating. They really celebrate it, they think, yeah, well, why the hell not? I'm disabled, I'm going to be disabled for a long time, for the foreseeable future, why not have somebody that celebrates it, and can really explore that with me? However, for a lot of disabled people, it's something that they find very oppressive, that they really feel like they want to get away from, because why would somebody close in on that one aspect of you
Hannah Witton
Fetish. So the way that I understand fetishes is that that person can't like help those feelings, like that's just like what they happen to be aroused by. So where's that line between respecting their desires, but also -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Do we have to respect their desires though?
Nima Misra
I just think you wouldn't get on board, you wouldn't -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, or not indulging.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Why do you have to respect all people's desires? Not everyone has a desire that is a great thing for the rest of the world. I don't know that we have to respect them all. Like people have kinks, sure, that's fine. But if your kink is something possibly illegal, maybe.
Emily Yates
Yeah, I think, so there's also kind of a bit of divide within devoteeism. Some people consider their devoteeism a fetish, and some people consider it a preference. There was somebody that I met, that I interviewed, that said, he's felt, you know, he's past middle age now, there wasn't the internet around when he knew that he was a devotee. He spent 20/30 years of his life feeling very, very lonely, very cast out. Now he has the internet, he sees that there's other devotees there, he feels liberated by being a devotee, and he likened his devoteeism as as to being gay in the 50s.
Hannah Witton
Right? Okay.
Emily Yates
So he said, my devoteeism is a preference, I do not find women who are non disabled sexually attractive at all.
Hannah Witton
Oh, really.
Emily Yates
I only find disabled women attractive. And actually, I felt so isolated in my life, I have to, have to relate it to how gay people felt in the 50s, to how trans people felt 10 years ago, and maybe even now. So he, he really kind of related it as a preference, not as a fetish.
Hannah Witton
Is there a risk there of disabled people being taken advantage of?
Nima Misra
Yeah.
Emily Yates
Massively.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Because you get into a situation where this person is your access to the world. It's not just that, I think often if you're a disabled person, and you have an able bodied partner, they are your access to the world, because they, whether you've got a physical disability, and they're the one in the morning, helps you into your chair, maybe, and then you go out in your chair, and you're out in the world. If they weren't there, maybe you wouldn't be able to do that. Or maybe you've got, I have, I have, obviously a language issue, I can't understand what people are saying. So I need there to be a person who can help me communicate with the rest of the world. I get really upset, I'm getting upset now.
Nima Misra
No, I understand, I get it
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I've had like people in my past, who were maybe my friends, and they, I'm trying not to be really specific. But there was a person in my life who could sign, and they were hearing, and they were my friend, and we could go out together to places and they would sign for me so I know what's going on, which is like, amazing, you're my access to the world. And it's like cool and casual because it's not like, no offence Ruthanne, there's no like, I have an interpreter here with me. It's just my friend. They're really cool. But then they started to quite like me -
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Romantically. And then what do you do? At the time, I didn't have a lot of people in my life, and I didn't have a lot of people in my life who could help me to sign and do stuff so I'dunderstand what's going on. And you feel kind of trapped, and like, what do I do?
Emily Yates
I personally think that it's not dissimilar to us saying there needs to be inclusive sex education, otherwise disabled young people are much more likely to be abused. That people need to be educated and made aware of devoteeism, because not being educated and made aware of it means that you can't make a choice as to whether you want to get involved with it or not.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
It's the same with gay sex education. You need to tell gay teenagers how to have sex safely, otherwise they're just going to have sex anyways.
Nima Misra
But guys, people need to get their heads around the fact that we can have sex, we do want to have it, and that we're not kids, first of all.
Emily Yates
Totally.
Nima Misra
Like that isn't even comprehended at the moment.
Charlie Willis
I think the kind of question of, can we even have sex is -
Nima Misra
Aw, are you alright, Jess?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, sorry.
Nima Misra
No, don't say you're sorry,
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I'm always like a ball of emotions,
Nima Misra
No, darling, we're talking about really personal things. I told you, before I came here, I was bawling my eyes out. So don't worry about it.
Hannah Witton
Oh no.
Nima Misra
Sorry, carry on.
Charlie Willis
It's alright. I was, what I was gonna say was, I think going back to the question of, can we even have sex? It kind of shows how limited our view of sex as a society is. Like we always see sex as penetration. Actually, sex can be passion, sex can be -
Nima Misra
A hug.
Charlie Willis
Yeah.
Nima Misra
A kiss.
Charlie Willis
Well, maybe not -
Nima Misra
Intimacy, I guess. Yeah, not sex
Hannah Witton
I was going to say, because then we've all -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
We've been cheating on everyone.
Charlie Willis
I think that if we can broaden out that definition of what do we mean by sex, then actually, we can kind of welcome that that question a little bit more. I think the answer to that question as well, because I've been asked it in numerous occasions, in numerous forums, and someone even tried to put their hand down my trousers once and asked if I could get an erection.
Emily Yates
Charlie, that trumps my story.
Nima Misra
That's not okay, mate. You're just throwing that in there, that's really not all right.
Charlie Willis
But you know, it's kind of, the answer question of, can I have sex, is ultimately down to the person that I choose to have sex with.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Charlie Willis
And I think that I'm fine with the curiosity, but as you were saying earlier, it's very much about the delivery, because the way that it said often shuts down any discussion. And it's also, because the desexualization of disabled people is so rampant, it kind of, people are always surprised by it, and I don't think we should be. But I think that we should also be respectful of the people that don't want to have sex at all, and don't want to kind of engage, well, you know, for whatever reason, and I think that that's really important, as well. As a society, we put so much pressure on this idea, or this ideal, of sex, that we don't necessarily recognise, that there's a whole spectrum of kind of normal, and that kind of thing.
Hannah Witton
That word normal.
Charlie Willis
Well, yeah.
Nima Misra
It's a favourite of all of ours, I'm sure.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Which axis of normal are we talking about here?
Hannah Witton
I wanted to talk about mental health as well. So like, has your disability, you kind of touched on it briefly as well, like, has that ever affected your mental health? And has that then affected your relationships?
Nima Misra
Yeah, yeah. I think I went through a phase where I felt quite frustrated with myself, and didn't articulate myself very well to people as to how I was feeling, I just didn't talk about it. And it kind of it, it almost made me grateful that the my ex boyfriends were with me. And I was like, oh, thank you, I'm so glad that I found somebody, I'm so glad that they're putting up with me, that they're sticking with me, that they're staying by me. It made me grateful, which then meant that I was, not losing power in the relationship, but I wasn't, if you're not secure and confident like you're losing half the battle already. You know, I just turned into a bit of a doormat.
Emily Yates
And you accept things that you wouldn't usually.
Nima Misra
Yeah, exactly. And I think it affected me definitely, emotionally, in that way. Yeah, for sure.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I definitely felt that in my life. I've only had two relationships. But in my previous one, I very much felt like I was always on the backfoot, it was always thank you.
Nima Misra
And scared that they're leaving.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I'm like, naturally a really optimistic, quite confident, person. I'm quite chipper and like, yeah, go through life like whatever. And oh my god, this girl really kind of messed me around, emotionally. And you know, the stuff she did was not great. And I would not let that happen to my friend. But I was like, oh well.
Nima Misra
You let it happen to yourself.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, no one else is gonna like me. I was 23 when I met her, no one had, like, people have liked me and said, oh you're so pretty.
Charlie Willis
I know what you mean.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
But they're not going to take it somewhere. I no one previously had, so I thought this is it. What am I going to do? And then when we finally, when she finally dumped me, like fourth times in a row, and of course then I always went back when she said come back. She was like, okay, come back. Okay, I'll go again. Okay, I'll come back. Why? When it finally happened, I spent three months just crying, straight crying. I was like, this is it. It's gone forever. No one will ever love me. I was always, and it was always a thing. Like, it was always great that she, yeah, she put up with that.
Nima Misra
Right.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And then I met Claudia who's like, and, so, you're deaf, and? And it's just, sorry darling. You have a much nicer voice than that, I'm sure. Ignore me. She was always like, my disability is just part of me to her. And I know that, and it doesn't affect anything. So like, I always say this, but she helped me up the stairs at nighttime, but she'll grabbed my bum at the same time. This is what I want in my life.
Nima Misra
But you end up putting up with stuff that you just really wouldn't put up with.
Charlie Willis
Yeah.
Nima Misra
Just because you think it's almost a trade off. Like I honestly felt like it was sort of a negotiation. I'll help you with your shit, if you help me with mine.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Nima Misra
And that's not a relationship. That's not a team.
Hannah Witton
Relationships are equals
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
But I don't think it should even be about like, oh, we have to stay equal. There shouldn't be any kind of scorecard at all. It's like, oh, in this moment, you need this cool, I'm here.
Emily Yates
Yeah.
Nima Misra
Yes.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
And then even if, like the next five times, it's the same person who has the need, it should just be met. No questions asked.
Emily Yates
Totally, 100%.
Nima Misra
I agree.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
There should never be, and for me -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like, if you're keeping count, then that's just a red flag.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah, even with sex, like just -
Emily Yates
Totally. And I don't think it's until you've got that good person in your life that you realise that. I'm a really strong believer in that. When you're with the person that's that's right, you totally get that.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
You need that person to help you unlearn all the stuff you've been told before by society.
Nima Misra
I don't know where they are?
Emily Yates
We'll find them.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Out there.
Emily Yates
We'll find him.
Hannah Witton
This is the thing, your choices aren't limited.
Nima Misra
You're right, I have choices
Hannah Witton
There are plenty of fish
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I mean, there are some other websites too. I think one thing is really important is that these like magical, amazing, nice people, they don't even know how nice they are. So they're not aware that they might date someone with a disability. That just doesn't even come into their consciousness.
Emily Yates
Yeah, for me, going back to kind of the mental health thing, it's never been kind of relationship with me. It's always been when I when I, before, before I ever had sex, I was really worried about it. After I split it with my ex boyfriend, I had like a sex phobia. Like it was the physicality of it that bothered me, not the relationship stuff.
Nima Misra
Hhysicality in terms of how how would you manipulate and move your body? Like, how would it feel? Would you get be in pain? How would they feel?
Emily Yates
Yeah, and I think also that you think well, he really liked it when I did that. But he's the only person that I've had sex with. So how's that other person gonna feel? And are they gonna like a, b, and c? Are they gonna be comfortable with this about my body? Because just because he was, it doesn't mean that he will be. That really bothered me.
Emily Yates
Darling, I think everybody feels like that. The first time you get naked in front of like, a prospective partner is the scariest thing ever.
Charlie Willis
But I think that for disabled people, there's an added element of, because if I, if I wanted to have had more casual sex than I've had -
Emily Yates
You could have done.
Charlie Willis
I could have done.
Emily Yates
But you put it off, me too!
Charlie Willis
No, it's not that. It's because there's an extra, it's because there's an extra added level of trust that is needed.
Emily Yates
Yeah, I agree. You're right.
Charlie Willis
Between me and a possible sexual partner. That means that actually it, you know, it might not work out and we, you know, yeah, you can't have that you can't have that conversation.
Nima Misra
It's not as straight forward as boom, boom, boom.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I think if I get what you're saying, it's like able bodied people, when you get naked in front of someone for the first time, you are putting your emotional trust in them, saying you're going to take my emotions and you can protect them, you're not going to look at my, my body and go, ew. Like, you can be kind and careful with them. But then also, if you have a disability, you're like to get I'm giving you my emotional trust, but I'm also giving you my physical trust. So if you could be like a little bit careful right now, that would be great. Just respond really quickly if I say, ow, okay -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Charlie Willis
Yeah. And just going quickly back to the mental health stuff. I think that most of my own mental health issues have been derived from the way that I am treated by society, not necessarily because of my own kind of things. And I think that because of the dehumanisation that we have as disabled people, because our worth because often societies, society places worth on you based on things like, can you have sex, based on things like can you work, can you earn money, those kinds of things, those are the things that have very much impacted on my kind of own depression, and various other things.
Nima Misra
That's such a good point
Charlie Willis
Because I think that I, and we generally as disabled people, can compare ourselves all the time to others, moreso maybe the non disabled people. But I think also there's a real issue that we don't talk about it. Like the fact that we are all here today talking about this, is a massive rarity. Whereas actually, if we built our own peer groups, or our own communities around disability, or around, whatever we wanted to talk about, then we could learn from one another, and talk with one another and, and kind of really listen to one another, and kind of share those experiences so that we don't feel so alone and isolated.
Nima Misra
I already feel better today, having talked to everybody, like seriously.
Charlie Willis
Absolutely.
Nima Misra
It's such a good point, like deep down in our core, I don't think any of us are unhappy with the way that we are. I think like we're just unhappy with the way that we're treated sometimes. That's such a good point Charlie
Hannah Witton
You briefly mentioned about like the LGBT community, and that intersection, but Nima, what about with race? Because you were talking earlier about comments from your parents.
Nima Misra
I well, yeah, comments to my parents. Like, I will say right now that my parents are not included in this bracket whatsoever and like, my god, no way. They are the most loving, supporting, encouraging family I could ever have wished for. And I feel blessed, every single day to have been born into that family. Seriously, they are my, they're my lifeline. So this is not on them, whatsoever, and you know, when people do come up to my mum in the temple and say, what are you going to do with her? Like, like, how is she going to earn any money? Who she's going to live with? Who's gonna marry her? Who's gonna look after her? My mum's like, straight up, like, see you later, bye bitch.
Emily Yates
Yeah, she's fine with the money. She's been working in banking for the last 10 years, thank you very much.
Hannah Witton
She's doing alright
Nima Misra
Yeah, you concentrate on you and your own, like waste kids, like don't -
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Your son would be lucky if my daughter even considered him.
Nima Misra
But in the, in the Asian community, disability is still very much seen as a really negative thing. Like a very like, oh my goodness, like you're being punished from like, previous things you've done in your previous lives, and all of that silly, old school, kind of mentality. You're not seen as capable, whatsoever. And it's, it's not necessarily, it's not a very empowering community at times, because you are, you do, they do make you feel a bit like a victim. But you know, it's gonna take like what we've all said, it's going to take education, it's going to take people like us talking about these things, and showing that bloody hell we are capable, and then some, and then people will learn -
Emily Yates
100%.
Charlie Willis
I've had people before, kind of approach me in the street and say, you know, I'm gonna pray for you.
Nima Misra
Yeah, I'm going to pray for you.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Emily Yates
Faith healers, I've done a documentary on that too!
Nima Misra
Did you? Did you really?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
I mean, we can just plug Emily all day long.
Nima Misra
Em, did they try and heal you?
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Nima Misra
Did it work?
Emily Yates
As you can see, not quite.
Charlie Willis
I think that the way that we, the way that we kind of talk about disability, and the way that others talk to us about our disabilities is, is quite interesting. I think that I always assume that the LGBT community will be more supportive of a bi guy, that's disabled, but that isn't my experience at all. It's it's almost, it's not necessarily worse, but I think that if you're bisexual, then often people assume that if you're a man, then you're gonna end up with another man or, you know, if you're a woman, then you'll end up with a man as well. And it's just that, I mean, this is off topic, but it's extremely phallic centric. But I think that you kind of go into the LGBT community, as a disabled person, thinking, great, these people are slightly marginalised, they'll understand what it's like, and those kinds of things. And it's not like that at all. And I think that one thing that I often say when I'm I like working with others, is that disabled people, and everyone else, can just be arseholes.
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Yeah.
Charlie Willis
I think that we need to almost recognise that, and not put people on such high pedestals when we're working with them.
Nima Misra
And you know what, yeah, like you said, this is it sounded negative some of the stuff we've said today, but actually what's really positive is that we are sitting here, with various impairments, and we've got the balls to talk about it. And that we are all here, and confident with who we are and ourselves, and we're just trying to make we're just trying to influence other people rather than ourselves.
Emily Yates
And you know what, like, I personally think that slowly but surely it is getting better.
Nima Misra
It is getting better.
Emily Yates
So Nima and I, and Jess also does some some work for them from time to time, but we work for a charity called Enhance the UK. I started working for them four years ago, and you know, while until I started working for Enhance, a disability awareness charity, that does amazing things on sex and disability. I was not very sexually confident, and seeing the colleagues that we have with their impaired bodies, going out and doing amazing things, flipping hell, I felt really confident, really liberated, really empowered by everything that they do, and there are places out there if you do have any questions, if you want to ask anything. And yeah, I think I think, slowly but surely, things are improving. YouTubers who are very influential people, are doing things like this. It's flippin important and fair play to you for doing it.
Hannah Witton
And clearly you can see the impact that that had on you, because the way you've been talking about sex today, damn, just like no bars hold. I love it. I think this is a really sweet like way to end it. Thank you so much.
Emily Yates
Thank you for having us
Charlie Willis
Thank you
Jessica Kellgren-Fozard
Thank you
Nima Misra
Thank you
Hannah Witton
Thank you, Emily. Thank you, Jess. Thank you, Nima. Thank you, Charlie.
Nima Misra
Thank you Hannah
Hannah Witton
Yeah, this has been great. And let's just keep talking about this.
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review, you can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye!