Queerness, Christianity, Autism and Vaginismus with Andy Thornton | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Andy Thornton
I read this amazing quote that was, "God makes trans people for the same reason they make grapes and not wine and wheat and not bred; so that we can share in the joy and mystery of creation".
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that. Welcome to Doing It with me Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hello, welcome back to Doing It. This is the first episode of 2021, the first episode of season four, and I'm really excited to kick off this season. Lots of great guests and themes around sex to discuss my wonderful guest in this first episode back is Andy Thornton. Andy is a bi-gender illustrator and sex educator for the school of sexuality education and they are stonewalls LGBTQ plus person of faith role model. This episode is filled with so much goodness, we talk about all sorts. Andy talks about their experience being queer and non binary, what being bi-gender means to him, and how all that relates to being a Christian. Andy shares some queer stories that feature in the Bible that you may not know about. And we chat about the difference between a tolerating Christian community versus an affirming one when it comes to gender and sexuality. We talk about the social constructs of gender and go on a big tangent about language and sexual orientation. I love me a good to tangent about language. And we also talk about autism and vaginismus. I told you we cover a lot of ground in this episode. Welcome back. I hope you enjoy this episode and strap in for another season. As usual, you can find more information and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. If you like this podcast, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes. It's really appreciated. Here is the first episode of season four with Andy Thornton. Hello, welcome Andy. I'm so happy to talk with you.
Andy Thornton
Hi, It's so nice to be here.
Hannah Witton
Yay. I thought it would start out because, you're a multifaceted human being. I would love for you to describe yourself and like what are your identifiers? And bonus question. Does it ever change depending on who you're talking to?
Andy Thornton
Oh, that's so good. Let's dive straight in. I, yeah, I'm lots of things. So, I'm a Christian. I'm a Christian Quaker, which is like a kind of type of Christianity.
Hannah Witton
It's the oats in it
Andy Thornton
The oats aren't actually made by Quakers, which is the bane of my life. Anyway, so, I'm also an illustrator. I work in digital marketing. I am trans, I'm non-binary by gender. I'm an avid plant dad and I'm also, not officially diagnosed, but I'm pretty certain I'm autistic.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Andy Thornton
Which has been great fun finding out and actually really enrich my life.
Hannah Witton
We can talk about.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, I think that's all of the like, the big boys.
Hannah Witton
The big boys. Brilliant. So you say you're bi-gender. What does that mean? Because it's like bi, if we're talking language, means two - to identify with two genders, two or more because I know also people have like, the whole thing about bisexual, and people meaning it not meaning just two but like, one and others.
Andy Thornton
So I'm, yeah, I'm bi aswell, actually. And for me that's like, yeah, like all genders. all genders. I'm probably technically pan. But
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so I think most people like understand what bi is, it's just like more used.
Andy Thornton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
In society in general. So people, like a shorthand?
Andy Thornton
And to answer actually, to answer your second question. Yes, it does change depending on who I talk to. So for instance, when I'm talking to somebody who's not like, an obvious queer ally, I will just be like, Oh, I'm non binary, because that's the one that you've heard in the news. Do you know.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay
Andy Thornton
And I love or if I'm like talking to Christians who may be aren't overly accepting of queerness I'll be like, Oh, I'm LGBT. And then that's just really broad. And you've got no clue.
Hannah Witton
Wow, just like, I'm just gonna give you this umbrella.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, and you can guess. Yeah, so for me, bi-gender is, I think for a lot of people who are bi-gender, that's all genders. I think, for me, I do really associate with the kind of different aspects of kind of stereotypical gender. I think it gets quite, because I'm also a sociologist, I studied sociology at Bath .
Hannah Witton
Oh, let's get into it,
Andy Thornton
Let's get in, they'll start bringing Foucault out, no. It's difficult, because, obviously, you want to talk about the ways that like, I feel, I really relate to these things about being a man, but then that, they're not necessarily male things. Do you know, because gender is a social construct. So there kind of as a caveat before I talk about how I feel. But like, that's very specific to me.
Hannah Witton
I guess it's like, associating yourself with traditional masculine characteristics, rather than, yeah. It's like how we, like you said it's a social construct. But if you identify with aspects of that social constructs, that's fine. Yeah.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. And I think it's about like, how you feel comfortable. You know, so, for me, like, I love being in a group of guys. And like, being a bit laddie, and kind of, I don't know, like, the kind of good kind of masculinity. I really relate to that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Andy Thornton
Also some of that, I have like a lot of toxic masculinity. I'm embarrassed to cry in front of people. It's, it's a whole thing. But then I also really relate to kind of like the, in air quotes, female experience of like the patriarchy. I love kind of sitting with groups of women and talking about our feelings and like, very kind of ambitious in what I feel is like actually quite a female way
Hannah Witton
I love that, like, specific brand of female ambitiousness
Andy Thornton
It sounds like an indie band album title, female ambition. But I think for me, it's like being bi-gender is, I love gender. I love it as a way of expressing myself, I want all of it, I'm very greedy. And so I, I will express myself in like a really masculine and really, really feminine way. I kind of don't necessary, like, I've got a friend Mattie, who's just sort of not any of it. And that, they're also non binary, but they're like, you know what, gender not for me. So it's yeah, it really does depend. But yeah, for me, it's, I just love it.
Hannah Witton
I really enjoyed that explanation of your like experience of gender of just like, I just love gender so much. Like, all of the genders I love them all so much.
Andy Thornton
I just want it, like I love
Hannah Witton
That's amazing.
Andy Thornton
I think, do you know Killing Eve?
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Andy Thornton
Do you know the massive pink dress? The Molly Goddard dress she wears in Killing Eve?
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Andy Thornton
That is my agenda.
Hannah Witton
I love it. A visual representation.
Andy Thornton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Is it like just that dress? Or is it Villanelle in the dress is also your gender? Or your sexuality?
Andy Thornton
Yes, that's my sexuality, the dress is my gender. But it's true. Like, being bi really comes into being bi-gender. Because so I love to describe myself as gay. Because when I'm with people, I like I like being with somebody who I feel the same as but obviously if you're both genders. Yeah, you're just gay. But you're it's very complicated.
Hannah Witton
That's so interesting. I never thought of it like that. But you're so right, like every relationship that you would be in is gay. But also, you're still Bi.
Andy Thornton
Exactly. So it's like, it just shows kind of the limited nature of language, I think, and that we're all just trying to work out the best way of describing ourselves, which is why I love queer and non binary, because it's like, I don't have to give you a five minute explanation. You can just know that I'm not cis and straight.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there are great umbrella terms. One thing that I've been thinking a lot about, like sexual orientation and language as well recently, because you bring it up, is how a lot of the language that we currently have to describe or like sexual orientation not only includes the gender of the person or people you're attracted to, but it also includes your own gender in that word. And I'm like, where is the language that has got nothing to do with you?
Andy Thornton
Yes
Hannah Witton
But only stuff to do with who you're attracted to?
Andy Thornton
Yes, because we're really missing that. And I think what that looks like at the moment is you have to trans people identify, like, non binary masculine people identifying as lesbians. And then everyone's like, you can't be a lesbian. And they're like, just let me have this. Let me have this. You're completely right. It's, I think we're now getting to the point where, instead of using like a single word, you're just like, oh, I like these people. For me, that looks like I like people who are, often I like people who are quite, arrogance may be strong,
Hannah Witton
I'm sexually attracted to arrogance. Is it confidence? A certain,
Andy Thornton
Confidence, I love like, the best way to turn me on is to like, get into a deep intellectual discussion. And I'm like, Yes. But for me, I like people who are kind of in the middle of masculine and feminine. And actually, that doesn't really, what sex or what genitals that ends up appearing as, doesn't really matter. I don't mind.
Hannah Witton
It's like a kind of presentation that you're into.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. And like a kind of a way of interacting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andy Thornton
And as you say, like, just saying, I'm bi, doesn't cover that.
Hannah Witton
No, it doesn't. Because I also feel really restricted with heterosexual and straight. I use it because I very much moved throughout the world with straight privilege. And so I'm just like, I'm straight. Like, that's how I move around the world. Like, I'm a cis woman, my partner is a cis man like, but like you said, if I, if I wanted to sit down and have like, a five hour conversation about my sexuality with somebody, it would be they'd get a different answer. Because I find myself attracted to cis men, but I also find myself attracted to trans men, and some non binary people as well. And so I'm like, why does that even like? Where does that put me? Yeah, exactly. So but for the most part, I'm just, I'm straight. Like, it's just easy, but I don't, yeah, when you get into it, I'm not super happy with the rigidity of that language.
Andy Thornton
And I think that's really important to flag because I think a lot of people aren't just one thing, like, I've got a lot of friends who like a similar to you identify a straight. But are like, do you know, I really wouldn't mind going down a girl sometime. And who identifies as female and like, do you know, it's a bit more complicated than that? But we just don't. I think hopefully, we will eventually get to a point in society where you won't have to define a straight because you'll just be like, I like these people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah and it's more of an action or verb rather than a like, like I am. It's like, I like or I sleep with. I have relationships with
Andy Thornton
Exactly.Because it's, I know some people who are bi, but only want to be with women, because they've had a bit of a terrible time with men. And then I have other people who have had a terrible time with women, and so only want to be with men? And it's like, well, saying your sexuality doesn't cover that either.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so true. Language is limited, lets have deep discussions about it so you can actually know where everyone stands.
Andy Thornton
Exactly. It's true for gender as well.
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Andy Thornton
In that I think everybody has a complicated gender identity. It's just that trans people have been forced to notice that, because their complicated gender identity isn't, like doesn't fall within the remit of what's expected. But even cis people, you know, the way that they experience themselves that they present to the world is combined of so many different factors and is very complicated.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I think that's so true. I think cis women, to an extent, examine their gender because of the patriarchy. Cis men are probably like bottom of the ladder in terms of examining their own. Sorry to call you all out, cis men. You know, you're trying hard, but please try harder. You mentioned about not being diagnosed, but being pretty sure that you're autistic. How have you come to that conclusion? And also like, does that impact, has that impacted your gender, your relationships?
Andy Thornton
That's such a good question. Yeah. So that started when, shout out my dear friend Freya Bewley, turned to me and was like, Andy, I think you're autistic. And my flat we're like, what are you talking about? Andy is really good at socialising. They're really extroverted, like they're not autistic. But um, I watched this, just for interest, this video by Them. Like the platform Them, about like women talking about being autistic. And I was like, Oh, I'm not crazy.
Hannah Witton
Because it presents differently. And that's why a lot of women find themselves or like AFAB people find themselves being diagnosed much later.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, because you learn to mask I think, when you're raised female, you are taught how to placate everyone in the room, how to make sure that you're always polite and always pleasant. And, you know, you put time into learning those social cues. But it's more than that. So AFAB autistic people often are actually really creative, and like humanities and arts people.
Hannah Witton
Whereas the stereotype of the autistic person is more like science, math
Andy Thornton
Exactly. And so, for me, it was when I first realised I was like, Oh, good, another label. But it's been amazing, because I suddenly understand. First of all, I'm not like, Oh, I'm crazy. Because one of the one of the things is, if I'm in a group of people, and everyone's talking at once, and there's music in the background, I find it quite hard to follow what's going on. Like, sometimes I just don't get the things
Hannah Witton
Like a sensery overload.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. And so I'll just get really overwhelmed. And then I'll kind of have a bit of a meltdown, where like my body kind of shakes and stuff, but in my brain, I'll be like, I'm literally fine. What's happening?
Hannah Witton
Right.
Andy Thornton
That was amazing. Because now I can be like, Oh, this is just because I've had a sensory overload, no worries, I'll go and sit in bed for two minutes, and then I'll be fine. And so it means that I can like, take the meaning away from that. And it also helps like, I'm not very good at sarcasm. I'm very sarcastic, but I'm not very good at understanding when someone's being sarcastic.
Hannah Witton
That's interesting. So you can dole that out but not recieve it
Andy Thornton
Give it but can't take it. So that's been really interesting. And then like, so, in my relationship, it's also helpful because, like, when I'm, when I was with my ex, like, he could understand why I do certain things and look out for that. And also, like, when I'm really happy, I jump up and down. And,
Hannah Witton
Yes as you should,
Andy Thornton
As you should, and I used to think that was really weird. And now I'm just like, No, it's just fun.
Hannah Witton
It's just fun.
Andy Thornton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. More people should jump up and down when they're excited. I squeal.
Andy Thornton
Squealing is great.
Hannah Witton
But full on squeal
Andy Thornton
What I meant to say is, the interesting thing also about gender and autism. I have this really good book that's all about like research into AFAB of autistic people.
Hannah Witton
What's it called?
Andy Thornton
I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Let me know. And we will put it in the show notes for people to check out
Andy Thornton
Fantastic. Yeah, in that, it talks about how actually, most of the people they interviewed are on the gender spectrum, and are at least bi. Which is really interesting. And I think
Hannah Witton
What do you mean. on the gender spectrum? as in like not cis,
Andy Thornton
Not cis, yeah
Hannah Witton
Right. Yeah.
Andy Thornton
So a lot of AFAB autistic people are kind of either androgynous or like, gender fluid. And I think it comes from, when you're autistic, you just don't get rules. So I know all the social rules, and I follow them, and I have a script in my head that I do. But I don't understand why they exist. For instance, queuing. I know that everyone here wants the thing that I want, and so that we should all wait, but I want it. So why don't I just go to the front?
Hannah Witton
Absolute anarchy. Yeah, I'm all for a bit of gender anarchy, actually, so.
Hannah Witton
That's really interesting. Do they, like does, in the book, does it have any kind of explanation as to why they think that is? Or is that kind of like still we need more research, please?
Andy Thornton
Yeah, and this is the thing you don't, you're like, Okay, I know that I should but I don't want to. Also often, like tight clothes, and like high heels, which are kind of more stereotypically feminine, aren't comfortable. And a lot of autistic people are like, I would like to be comfortable all the time. So I think that's part of it as well.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, I think generally it's we need more research and they talk about how, you know, autistic people often don't like tight clothing, and they don't get why they'd have to act a certain way just because they're female. And so I think it almost comes into more challenging gender roles necessarily, than like necessarily not being female. But almost Yeah, that's kind of linked enough. I also think, so there was a, there was a test on the BBC, where you could see how autistic you were. A while ago,
Hannah Witton
I love internet quizzes.
Andy Thornton
I know! And on that they had like autistic for a guy and autistic for a girl, and how, if you're male, you're kind of more likely to just be further up the autistic scale anyway. Because of how I think we've socialised women into being more, kind of, often more astute and more, I don't know, more reactive?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Andy Thornton
So I wonder if part of, and I think maybe this is true for me, part of my identifying with like, masculinity is like, well, if I'm clever, you should just see me as clever. Why, why is me being a woman part of it? And if I don't, if men don't pick up on social cues, people are like, classic. And it's not a big deal. Whereas if I didn't pick up on social cues, I'm terrible and a bitch.
Hannah Witton
Ah yeah. Yeah. Like, Come on, give me, give me some flack here. Like, treat me like a man, please. I love that. So when I asked you to describe yourself, the first thing you said was Christian. And I don't know if that was intentional that it was the first thing that you said. But now I'm going to ask you about it.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. Because it's like, it is probably the most important thing about me and my life. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Nice. I guess my first question is, Has it always been easy? Being queer, and Christian or has that been a journey?
Andy Thornton
Oh, boy, buckle in. So I became a Christian before I realised I was queer. I became a Christian, my family aren't religious. And I became a Christian in year seven because of a miracle, which is quite cool. Yeah, love that
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness, what a wild story.
Andy Thornton
And then realised about two years after, while I started going to a very anti gay church, that I was queer. Which was a nightmare. I mean, my pastor told me to be celibate. I had a Christian friend who was like, obviously, we'll still be friends, but like, I don't approve, it was a whole thing. And I did a lot of praying. I was like, you know, if you don't want me to be queer, I won't be queer. And that's fine. And I did a lot of Bible research, Oh, boy. And all I
Hannah Witton
Go to the the source material
Andy Thornton
Go to the source, Exactly. Hear it from the big person. And all I got, when I prayed, was good things. And all I got when I actually read the Bible and read it in context, and like read all that academic kind of scholarship on it, was just, like, overwhelmingly positive towards queer people. There are so many queer people in the Bible. There are so many queer stories in the Bible. Shout out to Blessed the Binary Breakers, which is a really good podcast led by Avery who, basically, they go through like loads of queer stories in the Bible that are like have been de-translated. But actually, it's really cool.
Hannah Witton
Back to that language thing again.
Andy Thornton
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
I think we forget how many iterations of translation a Bible has gone through.
Andy Thornton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And like how much original, like contextual meaning will have been lost
Andy Thornton
In a huge way. My favourite one is Joseph's technicolour dream coat. Which first of all,
Andy Thornton
But Joseph, and this is from Peter Signer Schrader , who I learned this from, the word is, I think it's pene to see, I'm saying that we're really wrong. But the only other place that that appears in the Bible is to describe a princess dress.
Hannah Witton
Gay, first of all gay
Hannah Witton
Oh, so the name of his like coat/cloak is also a princess dress.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. So
Hannah Witton
Love it
Andy Thornton
So it's actually non binary icon. So I basically and then I got into relationship with a fabulous girl called Alif, who was Muslim. And basically realised that how can I believe in a God who made love a sin? Because when we were in I was in that relationship, I was like, Oh, this like, this is normal. This like, feels so natural. And so like, holy. Do you know?
Hannah Witton
A lot of people find like, even if you're not religious, a lot of people find sexuality, relationships, love, like very spiritual.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. And so that, and then I was like, okay, great. God is fine with the gays. I've done my research, smashing. And then I went to uni. Realised when Ruby Rose came out, and said, I'm non binary, sometimes I'm a guy, sometimes I'm a girl. I was like, Oh, that's what it is. So that kind of spoke to, now I understand why I feel, how I feel. That's me. And then I was like, Ah, crap, I've got to do this whole God thing again.
Hannah Witton
But with gender
Andy Thornton
But with gender.And that was really tricky, because even, so I did my dissertation research on this, of bi and trans exclusion within the church, and within LGBT communities. And even in queer, Christian spaces, there's transphobia. Because even within queer spaces, there's transphobia to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andy Thornton
That was tricky. Because for a long time, I was like, why did you make me wrong? Do you know, which is the classic narrative? I was with a devout Christian at the time, who's straight and cis, and he also, he was accepting and encouraging, but when it came to me talking about getting top surgery was sort of, oh, but you know, God made you this way. So that all got a bit tricky.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Andy Thornton
But now, I think again, through research and through prayer, and through kind of living as myself, I've realised that being non binary actually brings me closer to God because God's non binary,
Hannah Witton
So true
Andy Thornton
You know
Hannah Witton
Even though we like to use he/him pronouns.
Andy Thornton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
We don't know
Andy Thornton
God's super queer. Jesus was like the sassiest gay ever, no. Don't, I'll get crucified if I say that.
Hannah Witton
I hope not. Alleged queer.
Andy Thornton
Alleged. Just very sassy. Very expressive. Yeah. But no, for now, I kind of have this narrative. I read this amazing quote, that was, "God makes trans people for the same reason they make grapes and not wine, and wheat and not bread; so that we can share in the joy and mystery of creation".
Hannah Witton
Oh, I love that.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. Amazing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah like, here, have something to do yourself?
Andy Thornton
No, because, you know, and
Hannah Witton
I'm only gonna do half of the work for you
Andy Thornton
And you can finish it off. But, like, isn't that true for everyone? Do you know like, when we're born, we were not who we become. And yeah, being trans is just one part of becoming who you are. Do you know, so now I feel really blessed to be trans. I feel like it's
Hannah Witton
a major part of that creation.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. Because I can connect to God and I can just be authentic, it comes back to the autism as well. Everything is linked. I can just be who I am and be authentic and show people that they don't have to be constrained by gender. And I think that's a very Christian message, because fundamentally God is love and and Jesus was like, Can we all just flippin love each other, please?
Hannah Witton
He's that, the girl in mean girls. Just like, Can we all just get like I did in middle school?
Andy Thornton
That was like Jesus's teachings.
Hannah Witton
I didn't even have to read the Bible and I get it, amazing. So when I asked for people to send in their questions for you, so many of them are about being Christian and being LGBT. I will get onto those because the way that they phrase their questions is just better because I think a lot of them are also Christian, so they know more shit than me. But beforehand, you told me pre recording that you also have vaginismus. So I kind of just wanted to ask about that as well. We're just like, we're firing off all of the different topics today. I guess I I specifically wanted to know, I guess, like, when did you notice that something was up? And have you found that it's less of an issue in queer relationships? Because there's less of like a rigid script around penetration?
Andy Thornton
That's a really good question. So I, how do I answer this? I had quite a terrible relationship when I was younger, which means that my kind of my vagina didn't have a great time. And so I think the answer to when did I realised something was up was when I kind of like, realised that having pain after sex or having, like discomfort, or like sexual stuff not being comfortable, or what you want wasn't normal.
Hannah Witton
That that's a huge thing that I should have learned at school. It's honestly ridiculous, but they actually teach you the opposite. They teach you that it is going to be painful. Yeah, it makes me so angry.
Andy Thornton
Which is why I love working for the school of sexuality education. I was teaching in schools the other day. Yeah. And we were literally teaching about how like, like, you know, things should always like, be okay, and you should, like, everyone should enjoy sex. And it was just amazing to be able to, like, teach that in a school.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, give that to some young people.
Andy Thornton
Exactly. But actually, I went to see a play by Chucked Up Theatre called Have I told you, I'm writing a play about my vagina. And it's all about the author who, and how she realises that she had vaginismus.
Hannah Witton
Ah
Andy Thornton
I watched it and I was like, oh,
Hannah Witton
It me.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, right. And so then I went to get checked. And it was something that, it was kind of always just about manageable, became more noticeable when I actually started having, like, like, having sex that was consensual and fun and safe. Because then it's like, oh, why do I still feel terrible? You know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But it's like in your body. It's like, yeah, the response.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, exactly. And so I want to get checked out a clinic and they were like, Oh, you might have vulvodynia, which is a form of vaginismus, where it's like, actually a sensory thing, like a physical thing.
Hannah Witton
Isn't that, I might be wrong, where you might get pain in the vagina, vulva region, even when you're not having sex.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, yeah. So that's like, it's kind of irritated. And like anything irritates it. And I do have a very sensitive vagina. I have to take great care of her. Because otherwise it gets aggy with me, that's part of it. But yeah, eventually they saw that I had vaginismus. And I'm really lucky in that my vaginismus, if I manage it, and if I make sure to like do certain things, I can have penetrative sex and it's great and not a problem.
Hannah Witton
Without getting too TMI. If this is crossing any boundaries, may or maybe just in general, like what are some things that people can do to look after their vaginas and their vaginismus?
Andy Thornton
What a great question. I'll tell you all of the things generally, some of which apply to me and some don't, and then TMI isn't an issue. So they always say cotton underwear, which is annoying, but is like true.
Hannah Witton
That's also just generally good. If you've got a vulva.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, if you've got a vulva, just do it. Also, like are your pants too small? I had this amazing. I have this amazing friend, Rachel, and I was having a real meltdown. Because I was like, Rachel, My pants are too small and put on weight. And like I know that's a good thing, but ahh. And Rachel was just like, buy bigger pants. Yeah. I said bigger. No problem. But also E45 cream.
Hannah Witton
Honestly, Saviour from day one of birth until the day you die
Andy Thornton
Literally praying to God for E45. So that's really good. And it's something that you can do, like generally daily, or you can also do it if you're about like, things about to heat up, whack some on.
Hannah Witton
And just in general, E45 kind of on the outside. We're not putting it inside anywhere people
Andy Thornton
Yes, a really good point. And don't overdo it as well. Also quite good as a face cream, so doubles up. Other things that can work; so you can get dilators you can, like a lot of it is about feeling safe. So, it's your vagina, and basically your vagina has anxiety. Yeah, they're like, I don't want anything in me. So if they feel really safe, if you feel really safe, and you know that at any point, you can stop. And at any point, you can be like slowed down, then that really helps. Also, if when you start penetration, you kind of do that very, very slowly. Leave, like stay still for like a minute and then start moving.
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Andy Thornton
Make a massive difference as well.
Hannah Witton
Great tips just in general. So people with vaginismus and not.
Andy Thornton
Just generally.Yeah, and I know Yes Glide do a vaginismus leap. I've not used it. But that's also something to check out as well.
Hannah Witton
There we go.Right. I'm going to dive into people's questions. People had a lot.
Andy Thornton
Really?
Hannah Witton
Of questions. Yeah. Someone asked, Have you ever felt the need to challenge your church leaders? And how have you found that?
Andy Thornton
Oh, what a great question. So I have done that actually. Twice.
Andy Thornton
Er, well, so I, yeah, I have a strange relationship with the church, because I've been to a lot of churches that have been quite bad. There was a church in my hometown, who, someone in the congregation wanted to come out as trans. So I took them to the pastor, we had a conversation, and they were like, he was like, um, obviously, you know, we like, we'd love you to keep coming to the church, but we don't know if we can baptise you and you can't be on church leadership. And that was horrific. Because the idea that you could that there would be anything that you could not be baptised for just go so strongly against Jesus's basic moral principles.
Hannah Witton
How did that go?
Hannah Witton
Right.
Andy Thornton
Yeah, so that went, Okay. And he was very polite. But there's such a problem, I found that in my research, as well as such a problem in Christianity of, we will tolerate you, we will not explicitly say anything to you, but we will disapprove and we will not allow you to become a real member of the church. Yeah,
Hannah Witton
Yes. That like, we'll be nice, aren't we nice Christians?
Andy Thornton
Yes, which isn't like, Christians aren't, should be nice. They should be radically inclusive, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yes, I love that.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. And then recently, I go to a church in Bath. And I, for the first time in my life, I felt I actually have a spiritual home here, the people are so accepting. And it was amazing. And I, you know, I was in a prayer group where we were about to pray. And I was like, oh, by the way, my pronouns are they and he, and the person leading was like, Great, that's really helpful to know, and just use he pronouns in prayer, which was awesome. But, the pastor of the church did a, what can only be described as a bit of a dodgy talk, talking about it, which again, was all very, he didn't say anything explicitly problematic, but the, just all of the tone and the kind of the phrases and the way that it was just really didn't sit right with me. And so I had a meeting with somebody in the church and was like, Look, I, I would love to be part of church leadership, I would love to be really involved in this church. But I just I can't be bothered to just be tolerated. Do you know? And so, like, can you, can you tell me if you actually do accept, like transness? And am I fully welcome in this church? And the person I spoke to was like, obviously, I think you're great. And that's not an issue, but I don't know about the leadership. So I will get back to you. And that's where I'm at right now.
Hannah Witton
Oh, well, I hope that they look, look at their institution, I guess and look at the group and just be like, right, let's make the good decision here, please. Yeah. This is kind of related to someone asked, Is there a difference between a welcoming and an affirming religious community?
Andy Thornton
Yes, was a spot on question. There is
Hannah Witton
I feel like that's what we're getting at. You want that, like, affirming.
Andy Thornton
And the Quakers have been really great for that, because the Quakers are explicitly affirming, explicitly inclusive. And I think what that looks like is the way that the language that people use, the presumptions that people do or don't make, like, Is there a rainbow up in the church to say that they're an inclusive church? You know, are they willing to sacrifice certain members of the congregation who aren't inclusive in order to be inclusive?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. That's so true. Rather than making it like a palatable environment for everyone who might have some homophobic or transphobic views, they go, No, this is the space, this is what it is, and you, like, either join us in this inclusivity. Or like, your out.
Andy Thornton
You know, but it doesn't need to be. People aren't going to get it straight away, especially if they are not, haven't been exposed to LGBT+ issues, or people, or identities before, they're not going to get it straight away. And that's okay. We can't cancel people, just because they don't know things. But it's about a church actively working with the congregation saying, okay, we want to be in a church that follows Christ's example, and is inclusive of all people. That means we want to include all LGBT people. If you have a problem with that, let's have a discussion and show you these resources, where you can see that this is what Jesus would have done. And actually like, they're putting in the work to be an affirming church.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Someone asked how to deal with the shame you often get from Christianity. Is something you've experienced?
Andy Thornton
In a big way. I have, I have cried in my car outside churches before.
Hannah Witton
Oh, no.
Andy Thornton
Just being like, why does God hate me? There is so much internalised shame. And it's really hard. I think, first of all, it's just great that this person can recognise it and see that it's there. A part of my job as a LGBTQ+ person of faith role model for Stonewall is talking to young, queer Christians. And there's just so much shame and, and often it's things that the church have said to you, or that people have said to you, or that you've just picked up that you kind of hold on to as truth. And I think the biggest change for me, has been finding new sources of truth, like new authority, so like Blessed are the Binary Breakers or there are loads, there are loads of trans and queer Christian resources made by vicars, and like academics who have deeply studied the Bible. And I think if you, and it's all well and good knowing that, but if you really dig into it, you can be like, Oh, the shame that I've been given is from people not from God.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, that's actually a really great way of thinking about it.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. And then it's just like, it's about knowing that they're wrong and you're right. And that's something that, to be honest, like praying as well, like, from obviously, it's like this is for Christians, but for me, like some of the most amazing kind of leaps in getting rid of my shame, and like, just loving who I am, have been from having a session of prayer and getting nothing but good things from God, of like, God has been using my right pronouns before I was using my right pronouns. And I remember like three years ago, being like, what? So I do think like, it's often really scary, because you're like, oh, crap, if I pray, and God says, don't be trans, what do I do then? But you're just not gonna get that. So it's about like having that faith and knowing that, you know, you are perfect. Yeah, have faith know that you're made perfect. Surround yourself with affirming people, do the research. And know that you are made in the image of God.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And someone asked, and I think this one comes comes up a lot with people who are Christian, but then also who aren't? Because this is something that I think about a lot. How are you able to, and how, separate Christianity in the Bible from the church as an institution?
Andy Thornton
Yes. Yeah. Which is so important. I, I'm not a big church person. I love going to church, but I've had so many bad experiences, that it's not necessarily a great place for me. But whenever I've looked into the Bible, whenever I've looked at what Jesus says, it's all positive, and it's all loving. So I think, I think in the same way that you separate anything. Like if, you know, we don't, it's it's extremely Islamophobic to compare somebody who believes in the Muslim faith and ISIS because they're just not the same.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and we often like grant that it's like more individual nature of faith to Christians, whereas we don't often grant it to people of different faiths.
Andy Thornton
Yes, exactly. And so I think it's about understanding that people ruin things.
Hannah Witton
Why is it that people are so shit?
Andy Thornton
And they're not, that's not coming from anywhere, like the homophobia and transphobia and the kind of, strict gender roles that a lot of churches push on people is not coming from Jesus, it does not come from God. And it is not, it's in the Bible, but it's not in necessarily encouraged in the Bible a lot of the time. And even the resources that we, that are taught in churches miss a lot of the, like alternative relationships, polyamory, like matriarchs, do you know, like all of that is there, there's even sex worker in the lineage of Jesus, Rahab.
Hannah Witton
Nice. Isn't he like BFF to the sex worker as well.
Andy Thornton
Oh yeah, like Mary Magdalene? Like, yeah, his second in command.
Hannah Witton
I see. I think as someone who's like an outsider to it, I get really, like, frustrated, when I see often like the real life impact that the like, the more traditional, not even traditional because, like, I'm sure as you would say, the actual traditional way is the super queer bible. But yeah, the more kind of like strict gender roles, the transphobia, the homophobia, the sexism, like all like all of that, like, I see, I see that impact of that on people. And that's what like, makes me really sad and angry. But that's also then why I'm so glad that there are people like you who exist, who are just like, no, come on, like, faith can be a really positive thing. It can be really beautiful. And it doesn't have to, not even that it doesn't have to conflict with your gender or sexuality, but that it actively is part of it. And, and part of it and encouraging that.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. My faith in God definitely saved my life and has been a really enriching part of like being queer. But, um, that's been a struggle just because of churches. But also, I think it's important to say, like, even quite modern churches that seem really, like liberal, often can have kind of these under arching views that are quite damaging. But there are lots of queer Christians and I think it's, it's about just separating those two things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. separating the two and trying to do better.
Andy Thornton
Yeah. People are always like, Oh, so you're not that religious then? And I'm like, No, I I'm really religious. I'm just also queer.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah. And they don't have to be two separate things. Yeah. Because someone else actually said, How to like deal with people who assume you're homophobic?
Andy Thornton
Yes, this one's funny because I so I have a shaved head and I dress quite kind of queerly I guess if that's even a thing. That doesn't mean anything because anybody can be queer. So I have the opposite, which is people often are like, no, but you're not really a Christian, are you? Like, you know, like, come on. And, and then I've also been described as like, Oh, yeah, they're a Christian, but like, they're one of the good ones. I think, yeah, it's just about I do always have the caveat of yes, I love Jesus. And I'm also really gay. It's just about coming out with both of them straight at once.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and both are true, exactly the same time in the same intensity. Yes. I love that. Well, Andy, thank you so, so much for chatting with me and answering all of my questions. It's been such a delight. Where can people find you online?
Andy Thornton
Yeah, so I'm @humansatsuma on Instagram, and I have an art account which is @lesgetbetter. I also manage the School of sexuality education's social medias, if you could give them, @school_sexed a cheeky like that would really help me out.
Hannah Witton
We love them. We love them. Absolute shout out to them. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And thank you all for listening, bye. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it. If you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast