Going Through a Divorce Because You Don't Want Children with Jess Dante | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Jess Dante
That was always the best thing for me, was to have something to get out of the house and to go interact with people. And it kind of acts a little bit like just helping you to forget what's going on, even if it's something like going to a class.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating and our bodies. Hi, welcome back to Doing It another Wednesday, another Hump Day and another sexy podcast episode. Although this episode is all about divorce, so maybe not so sexy. So last year, I released an episode with divorce lawyer, Alexandra Hurst, right before I was about to get married. All about the legal and financial realities of marriage, and of course, also divorce. A lot of people really liked that conversation in that episode, and I heard from people who'd learn stuff about marriage from the episode that they didn't know before. People who've been married for a while already who realised that there was so much they didn't know or realised they were important conversations that they hadn't had with their spouse, but it is never too late. In this episode, I wanted to bring on someone who could talk about marriage and divorce from a personal perspective. Jess Dante is a wonderful friend of mine. She's the founder of Love and London, which helps people travel to London like they live here, and definitely check it out when this whole pandemic is over if you would like to visit London. We get into Jessica's story in detail in the episode, we talk about how she got married at 23 and then divorced at 30 and what the reality of that experience was like for her. Jess discusses her decision and desire to be child free and some of the stigma around that. We talk about loneliness, dating apps and money, the craving for attention and affection because, as much as we don't like to admit it, those things are important to many people and we can get bursts of cravings for it if it's missing in our lives. And also, we discussed what Jess learned from the experience, how she healed and moved on and dating as a divorcée. Big thank you to Jess for being so open and vulnerable in this episode. I'm always so grateful to guests who trust me and you, dear listener, with their stories. As usual, you can find more info and links to everything we talked about in this episode in the show notes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Twitter or Instagram @DoingItPodcast. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can leave a rating and review over on iTunes. Or you can support over on patreon.com/Hannah Witton for early access and ad-free episodes, amongst other bonus content and a private discord community. Without further ado, here's my chat with Jess. Hello, welcome Jess! I'm so happy to have this chat with you.
Jess Dante
Hello, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, let's chat about all this stuff. Oh, God,
Hannah Witton
We're gonna dive in. You ready?
Jess Dante
I don't know if I'll ever be ready for this. But we'll see.
Hannah Witton
I guess like the first thing we need to establish is what's your story? Like, you got married and divorced in your 20s? How, who, what, where, when?
Jess Dante
Yeah, okay. So let me, the, let me do like the, short, top line summary of everything because, I mean, I could go on for hours, obviously. But basically what happened was, I met somebody in my 20s and, my early 20s I was 23 at the time, and we, I was living in Italy at the time and this man was living in just outside of London and we ended up having a mutual friend that was living in Prague that I went to high school with.
Hannah Witton
How international!
Jess Dante
So international! This used to be like the best story to tell and now I'm just like, eugh.
Hannah Witton
Ah, context is everything.
Jess Dante
Exactly, exactly. So what happened was we, one weekend, went to, both of us, went to Prague to stay with this mutual friend. And long story short, we kind of went through a whirlwind romance and through visa troubles, coming over to the UK, we ended up, so that we could be together in the same country, we ended up getting married in New York and we got married six months after we met each other.
Hannah Witton
Whirlwind.
Jess Dante
Whirlwind indeed. Yeah, so both of us were 23 at this point. You know, at that point, my everybody was on board, our families were all on board, everyone thought it was. Obviously it wasn't, we didn't want to get married that quickly. But for us to be able to start a life together and over in the UK for me to be able to come over, we had to do that, because I had tried to come over to the UK to stay for a few months and kind of like let our relationship flourish before we started to anything like that. But I came over to the UK and got stopped at border control and ultimately was denied entrance into the UK. And then yeah, and was banned from coming back to the UK.
Hannah Witton
Whoa, what why? Yeah, like as a tourist,
Jess Dante
Yeah, like, I had a, I had a stamp that was like the British border control stamp. And I had a big x through it and if I and I was like in the system, so if I had to. Yeah, so even if I got a new passport, and I tried to go back, they would have like, flagged me straight away and been like, excuse me, you're not supposed to be coming back here. So, I probably should have prefaced with this before. Cuz it just sounds a little bit insane, I guess. But um, so really, the only option that we had to be able to be in the UK was for us to get married. And yeah, so it was, we were quite young but we felt as if we were going to spend the rest of our lives together. So we had a little ceremony in New York with just very close family and friends. And then I applied for my spouse visa. And a month and a half later, I was able to come to the UK with my spouse visa. And they actually let me in that time so that was good.
Hannah Witton
Very good. Workaround
Jess Dante
Worked out well, thankfully. So yeah. And then I've lived in the in the UK since. I was outside of London for the first couple of years. And then I've been in London for the rest of the time. And that's the nice, the fun part of it, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the beginning.
Jess Dante
the beginning. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So when when did you get divorced? And, I guess we're gonna get into it of like, lots of other questions. But I guess just like, Yeah, what happened?
Jess Dante
Okay, so, so my ex and I, so we physically split up, I guess we separated in January of 2019. And basically, what it came down to was, we had a disagreement on whether or not we wanted to have children.Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Was that something that you'd spoken about before you got married?
Jess Dante
You know, so everybody always asked me this. I think partially because people are kind of like, is that gonna happen to me? I don't want that to happen to me. So we, we had, we didn't have a conversation where we sat down before we got married, or even really that much throughout the marriage where we said, Do you want to have children? Yes. Do do I want to have children? Yes. Great. We're both on the same page with this. We had, it would come up in conversation that in the future, when we have a family, this and that, but not, in my opinion, not in a not that much.
Hannah Witton
Not concrete
Jess Dante
Right. So we got married, as I said, we were 23 and then, when I was 23, I honestly I didn't feel like, I didn't particularly love children. I didn't really look to my future at that point. And like physically, really physically, see children and having a family like, so when I was referencing it in the future, it was more of like, when I get to like 28/29 I think I'm going to have more of a feeling that
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you're like, I can't envision it now but maybe in like a few years time I'll be able to want that or something.
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly. And that's also a narrative that I think is pushed on women quite a lot is you don't you know you don't feel it now but you will when you get older or like your feel, what do they say? That you'll feel your uterus wiggle or something?
Hannah Witton
Oh your body clock? Yeah, like your waiting for your body clock to like kick and your like, it's not kicked in yet like, I'm still not feeling it.
Hannah Witton
Not for me.
Jess Dante
Exactly like it's it's pretty pretty standstill at this point. So I just I kind of just thought that that was what was going to happen as, as I got a bit older and as I kind of like got settled in my life a little bit more. But actually what happened was it kind of did the opposite. Where, as I got older, and especially as I got to, like 28/29 and we split up when I was 30, the more and more that I like experienced friends that had children, and just thought to the, to my life in the future, I just couldn't see myself having a life that had children in it and where I would feel completely like, this is the life I want.
Jess Dante
Exactly. Personally not for me. Not saying that people who want to have children, that that decision is wrong. It's just personally for me, it didn't feel right. So yeah, so without getting like too much into the personal details, obviously, I'm not the only one that was involved in this situation. There was about six months of trying to figure out, is this something that's going to change? And my ex felt, sort of certain,Yeah, that he did actually want children, but he wasn't fully sure if he was just if it was just something that like, the social construct, it was coming in and pressure.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, if it's just expected.
Jess Dante
Exactly. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's just like, oh, but that's what my life should be. That's the image that I have in my head without, like, questioning it.
Jess Dante
Yes, exactly. So he took some time to explore that personally. I took some time to explore my side of it personally, as well. And then after, and then yeah, in January, we just decided that, you know, I felt I wasn't gonna change my mind. And he felt he wasn't gonna change his mind. So we made the mutual decision to end our marriage.
Hannah Witton
Wow, that must have been hard.
Jess Dante
Yes, it was. It was very hard, especially because at that point, like right when that was fresh, it very much felt like, it felt very unfair because we had, we had gotten through so much. I mean, we had gotten through me being banned from coming to the UK. We got through UK border control, which is like impossible, but we weren't able to get through this. I feel like that is one of the very few things on life that couples, they're, There's not really compromising on it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because you're, you're literally like bringing it, a life, into the world or not. And like if either party regrets, any kind of outcome, like if one of you regrets not having kids, that can be really hard. And if one of you regrets having kids, that's like, what?
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah Witton
And, yeah, it's just not something you can compromise on. No,
Jess Dante
No, it's not. And on my end, I would feel so awful if I brought even just one child into the world and I felt like it wasn't, I wasn't fully invested in it. And I had, I had done a lot of research, both before and after our decision was made about all different aspects of this, this, this feeling/decision, whatever we want to call it. And I had read up a few articles of people who I talked about being children that were either not planned or weren't, not wanted is not the right word, but whether they had parents that hadn't really planned to have children, and there was an accidental pregnancy or, or they had parents that were, had pretty severe mental health issues and things like that, that even when they had love from those parents that they still always felt, they could always feel that resistance from their parents. And so I was like, I don't, I just don't want to put that on a child. It's not fair.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so tricky as well because also, like, I know so many people who have had unintended pregnancies and have had children, and they absolutely love and adore and cherish their kids. So it's not the case that that would be for everybody. And obviously, but you just, you just don't know. And that's your, like, you know, personal choice.
Jess Dante
Yes, exactly. And that's a really good point. And that's not a, I shouldn't have structured that as a sweeping generalisation of all children who were surprise pregnancies feel bad, but
Hannah Witton
Surprise.
Jess Dante
But yes, that's, that's a really good point. But I guess if there was with, if I related it to my situation, I felt that that was a possibility that I would be passing that on to a child.
Hannah Witton
What was the hardest thing about the divorce process, the separation? Emotionally, practically, because obviously, like it's a huge emotional thing, but then like on practical level as well, especially when, during your relationship and you become like a permanent resident and a citizen in your own right. Like, how did that all work as well?
Jess Dante
Yeah. So that, I was very lucky in that before all this, just before like all these big conversations had come up, is when I got my residency visa. Because that was the first thing that everybody was asking me too was, are you going to be allowed to stay in the country? Because I was here on, initially, the first five years, I was here on spouse visas, which obviously, if you get divorced, you can't be on a spouse visa anymore. But I did have my residency visa. So thankfully, I can keep that for the rest of my life, as long as I don't leave for a few years, from the UK. So that, thankfully, you know, I, in my situation, it was there was so many difficult things about it. But I also had a tonne of privileges like financially, I was completely fine. We didn't own a property, obviously, we didn't have children. So that was good. I think the emotional part was the hardest part for me, because I, I think it's hard for everybody when you're going through that, but it's not, it's never a competition, I guess. But on top of losing the person that I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with, and then having to live this life where I'm, I don't know, I mean, the first couple of months were so difficult because I was still living in the flat that we were had been in together for a few years. And, you know, it took me some time, but I had to take like all of our pictures off of the wall and the the difficulty for me was being in a foreign country away from my family, I didn't have, I didn't have like that family support around me physically. Like obviously, oh I'm getting all choked up
Hannah Witton
Aw, Jess
Jess Dante
No, no, no, it's, it's good. Um, no, it's not good, but you know what I mean.
Hannah Witton
it's fine.
Jess Dante
No, I mean, but it's just, hold on, let me take a breath. It was difficult being so far away from my family members. And I didn't have that support of those family members and it was tricky because a huge chunk of my friends were also were my ex's friends, and my ex's friends from years and years and years and years ago. So I was, during those first like two or three months, on top of being emotionally exhausted, obviously, like depressed, grieving the life that I no longer had. I was also often just on my own, like, yeah, it's just, and I would go through a weekend and I'm like, I haven't spoken to anyone this whole weekend, like physically. And so I think that was the hardest thing for me was just like, so much solitude because of the situation of me being over and over in a foreign country away from my family and people from when I was younger.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that like, physical and emotional isolation and loneliness.
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly. Which is hard in general for people. I mean, obviously, so many people right now would be, are experiencing this. So it was just an additional weight, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's hard. I wondered, were you ever worried about what other people would think? Did that ever cross your minds when you were like having these conversations and like making a decision?
Jess Dante
No.
Hannah Witton
Good
Jess Dante
I wasn't actually. In terms of my decision on, or having solidifying my stance on not wanting to have children I actually that was like, I for sure never wavered in not caring what anyone thought of that. And to this day, I don't I'm not really sure why but I don't know. I don't I've never felt like I needed to explain myself to anyone. Yeah, I don't know I but I've also I've, I've never been in a family and my ex in laws were never like this either, where people were asking like, Oh, are you gonna have children? Are you gonna have a family? What are your plans, and I've never had really a friendship circle where people they would ask every once in a while just set up just because they were a friend but I've never really had that like pressure. So maybe that's why. But even when I was going through all this pain and and I was like, you know I'm on the phone to my mom just crying into the phone. Even then, I never like wavered in that decision. And I never felt like I needed to explain myself to anyone to this day.
Hannah Witton
That's a good feeling, I guess, to have, like, obviously, it's really hard to go through. But then when you are not having to worry about external things, you're just like, the only thing that you've got to worry about is yourself and like, the relationship like that's what, that's your focus, not like other people weighing in.
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly. And I think also is probably, it was a good sign to me that even going through all this pain and difficulty, I still felt that way. That it was the right, I was on the right path.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess that can help you with that process of moving on as well. And I wanted to ask, like, what were some things that you did or that helps you to heal? And if somebody like if somebody listening is going through a divorce right now, what advice would you give them?
Jess Dante
I went to a lot of therapy. A lot. So I, I've been going to a therapist, on and off, for probably like four years now. And so she was familiar, she knew that this was going on and these conversations were being had. So when I, when it first happened, I was going to her like twice a week. And
Hannah Witton
You're like, I need more.
Jess Dante
And I don't even know if it was like, I didn't leave sessions feeling better at all. Sometimes I felt worse, but I just helped to be able to just cry to somebody. Because people don't really know what to say, when you're just kind of sitting there crying, which is fair enough because it's, there's not any there isn't anything that anyone can really say especially in the beginning that will, it can't be fixed, nothing's going to make them feel better. It's almost I just kind of like needed that time to just go and cry and put all my thoughts out with no judgement, and no one feeling like they had to respond to any of it, I guess.
Hannah Witton
Like therapists are trained to sit with somebody who is crying.
Jess Dante
Yeah, well, I can definitely tell that from my therapist, because she
Hannah Witton
We know what to do!
Jess Dante
Oh, yeah, she, I mean, I really got my money's worth those first couple of months. Yeah, so for, for people who are going through that, and they have the financial means to be able to go to a therapist, I went to somebody private. So I didn't have to go through like the NHS, or anything like that. I definitely would highly recommend it. But and then also the NHS does have services that are free for people who can't, if you're based in the UK for people who cannot afford it. So therapy was really big in the beginning for me, focusing on my own friend circle, and my friends and what they were doing and just trying to keep myself busy was
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Jess Dante
That was like, that was always the best thing for me it was to have something to get out of the house, and to go interact with people, and it kind of acts a little bit like just helping you to forget what's going on, even if it's something like going to a class or I remember a few days after it was I think it was the first week, week and a half after we separated and it was I think this was the first time I might have I think I left the house other than to go to the grocery store. And I went to, I had booked in for this workshop for a work thing and it was a full day workshop. And it was the first time that I had gone out and I really didn't want to go but I forced myself to go anyway and I, I'm so glad I did because it's actually was very helpful for work stuff but but it was it just kind of it just gave me almost a full day of not having to think about that and just kind of almost going back to how my life was before. So yeah, filling up time with things that are fun or are work related. Just to kind of keep your mind from just going back to everything, all the sadness and everything that's going on, that helped me.
Hannah Witton
And you just saying this now as well, it's just making me think of people, right now, who might be going through a divorce or the end of a relationship. And I'm just like, oh my goodness I feel for you because there's a lot of those things that are just not possible for people to do, it's so sad!
Jess Dante
I know, it's so true I, oh my heart goes out to anybody who's dealing with a breakup, a divorce, anything like that that's going on right now because we, you're right, we don't have those mechanisms really where we can do things like that. It's, I wish I could offer some kind of alternative, but I don't really, I don't know. It's, it must be so difficult.
Jess Dante
Yeah, just get on, get on zoom. Talk to your friends. Yeah. It's like, basically just do all of that stuff but virtually. Don't leave your house. It's so hard. It's like it's not the same. I also wanted to ask if somebody has a friend or a family member who is going through a divorce, what advice would you give to them? Like how best to support somebody that you know, going through a divorce?
Jess Dante
That's, okay, so that's a really good question because I don't, I really don't think people I, I don't think I don't know anyone very close to me that went through divorce before I got divorced. But I think if I did, I wouldn't really know what to say. I think probably, the most important thing, is to just check in, a lot. You're, they need that. They want it even if it's just that WhatsApp every other day or every day that says, hey, thinking about you let me know if you need anything. Or sending a little reminder of like a story that you guys, or an experience you did together or something.
Hannah Witton
Mm hmm. Yeah. Or a meme they might like,
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly. But I think people get worried when someone's going through the grief process, which when you get divorced, that's you grieve your your old life and all of the people that you're in addition to your ex partner, all of the other people that they brought into your life that won't be in your life anymore. I think that sometimes people think, oh, I don't want to like, I don't want to be intrusive, or I don't want to bring up, I don't want to bring up what they're going through and ask them how they're doing. Because maybe they don't want to talk about it, when it's actually the opposite. And people want to know, even just like one little text saying, Hey, I'm thinking about you hope you have a peaceful day, is huge. It really is, especially if that person is on their own right now. It it does so much. And obviously it takes no time to do that. And just in being there and listening, you don't actually have to say anything. I think our reaction is always to respond to something and say something like, you're so young, you're you'll meet somebody else, you're this, you're that, bla bla.
Hannah Witton
You just didn't need to hear that.
Jess Dante
No, no, no, exactly. Especially in the beginning, where I'm like, I can't think of anybody else right now. Or I can't think that far down the road or anything. Most of the time, they just need somebody to listen to them, and to just check in on them and let them know that they're being, they're being thought of and they're in your mind. Those are the biggest things, I think. And yeah, I think I think those are the biggest.
Hannah Witton
So, a lot of people had questions from our Instagram, like a lot of a lot of people are very curious about this topic. But before we get into them, I just have one more question, which is what is dating like, as a divorcée? A divorcée? divorcee? We don't even know.
Jess Dante
I don't know either.
Hannah Witton
What is that like? Like I know you have a new partner now but when you were dating, is it something that you disclose straight away? Or was it something that you were like, oh, when do I bring this up? Like how did that work?
Jess Dante
Yeah. Oh my god. Okay, so, well it's really interesting because I felt like, and I don't know if anyone else who's gone through divorce if or I feel like breakups can go through the same thing to were in the you know, the beginning and maybe it's the first few weeks or the first few months you just like cannot imagine being with anybody else. And you're like, I'll never love again. I can't, like I'll never you know touch another human being. I just cannot envision it. This is my life is, this is it. This is all of it
Hannah Witton
Yes and every single thing reminds you of your ex like there's no way to like separate them from potential new experiences.
Hannah Witton
It's the little wins.
Jess Dante
Yes, exactly. Every single little thing and oh my god, it's, it is the worst. But then you kind of like, after maybe a few months, you start to like, this is for me at least, like I kind of started to be like, Oh, look, that guy's kind of good looking, like I'm not gonna go talk to him but I can, you know, I can just yeah, I can notice other people and like appreciate the attributes that they are bringing to this world and just kind of like you know, or meet like somebody even just on a friend level out at like the bar, I miss going to bars just kind of saying, Hey, I can talk to you and not feel sick to my stomach. This is great. And and then it kindof just
Jess Dante
Yes, the little wins. Absolutely. And then it just kind of like progresses with time. And then for me, like I think it was eight months, eight months in so I was still married, because it took a year for the divorce to go through.
Hannah Witton
So long
Jess Dante
So long. Oh my gosh, yeah. The like, Don't even get me started. I know, it's the will, the episode that you did with a divorce lawyer was it just brought back like so many memories? And I was just like, Yep, that's right. That's right. Yeah, exactly. That's annoying. That's tough. That's blah, blah, blah. And I learned a lot as well. So definitely recommend everyone to go listen to that episode as well. If you're into it
Hannah Witton
That is one of my favourite episodes.
Jess Dante
Yeah. So good. really informative.
Hannah Witton
Thanks for the plug.
Jess Dante
Yeah, yeah, no problem. Right back to my story. So eight, eight months in, I kind of at this point was like, You know what, I am going to, I'm not going to date actually, like, I was like, I want to give myself at least a full year to learn to be on my own, and be okay with being just myself, without a partner. Because I was starting to see that actually, because I was coming out of this depression, the funk and my life was actually my career's doing really well, my life is was taking off, and I was feeling relatively better about everything. So I wanted to have this time to learn about myself and, and I was also kind of, like, excited to be able to have this opportunity to be able to date eventually, but also just do things on my own. I mean, for the last, like six years, I had been, I had to choose where I wanted to live based on the other person that I was in this couple and, and choosing what vacations to go on, and this and that, and I was like, but now I can just, I don't have to talk to anyone else. I can just choose for myself.
Hannah Witton
You don't have to factor somebody else into big decisions.
Jess Dante
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Even small decisions, like what am I gonna have for dinner?
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, is a great thing to have that. But I had had that for a really long time. And part of my healing was being like, Oh, actually, this is a pretty cool opportunity, like a lot of people kind of, might wish to like dip their toe back into single life for a little bit that were married. So I was kind of taking it in stride. So yeah, around eight months in, I was like, You know what? I'm gonna just just for fun, I'm just gonna put myself onto a dating app. Cuz Yeah, like dating apps weren't a thing when I got married.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah. New experiences.
Jess Dante
Such new experiences. It was mind blowing. I was like, this is so weird that I can do this now. So and I, like I said, I had I'd said I don't want to date anyone for a while because I want to be my own, be my own person and everything but I put myself on hinge because that I'd heard that like there's less creepiness on Hinge.
Hannah Witton
I think the Hinge came out, or got popular, like after I started my relationship, so I've never used Hinge.
Jess Dante
Oh, okay. Would you use the other apps though?
Hannah Witton
I used Tinder, OkCupid, Bumble. I've, yeah, I've used a lot but Hinge is one I never got on to
Jess Dante
Okay. Okay. Well, apparently it is. Like I had been told it's supposed to be more 'relationshipy'. But again, that was that's what I was saying I didn't want, but I just kind of, I wasn't sure I wanted to do Tinder because I'd heard some interesting things about Tinder too. So I was like, okay, Hinge seems like cool. You put the you pick the questions that you want to answer and you can, you know, this and that blah, blah. So, but I went on and I was just like, you know what I would it would just be nice to have like a little bit of attention. So let me just see how this goes.
Hannah Witton
That's funny, though, that you mentioned that, that kind of like craving for attention. That's so real.
Jess Dante
Oh, yes, exactly. It it's really interesting too, because you, when you get divorced, you go from, or in my situation at least, you go from like having affection almost on demand, I guess, to not having that at all and potentially for many, many months, so it's a really weird feeling. Very weird.
Hannah Witton
I hadn't even thought about that, but that's so true.
Jess Dante
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Just like something that is just, like a background thing in your life that's just like there. And then that being taken away.
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly. And obviously what I think, probably take it a little bit for granted when you're in the relationship, and then, when it's not there, and you're like, oh, man, okay, well, now what do I do?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, stop stroking yourself. Like, this feels nice.
Jess Dante
This feels great.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah, If only we could all touch our friends and family right now.
Jess Dante
I know, again, Oh, I feel so bad for people who are going through this right now and breakups right now. It's so difficult. So yeah, so anyway, um, I went on to Hinge and I started doing the Hinge thing, whatever you would call that. And I agreed to go on one date with one guy because he was the only one that hadn't done like, 900 back and forth. He was just kind of like, we did like four or five, back and forth. And then we set up a date. So,
Hannah Witton
Love it. Efficient
Jess Dante
So efficient. And, oh man, yeah, I was like, okay, that this, this I can I can do. So, the idea was just to go on a date, just to kind of like dip my toe and just to have a little bit of attention and go for like a nice meal or something. And then this guy that I went on that date with we, he was just, we hit it off straight away. Like more, I couldn't have imagined having such a good first date and like feeling, honestly, like, quite connected so quickly. And yeah, we just continued to see each other and it's been, it's been almost a year and a half now.
Jess Dante
So wild, honestly, it's, it's a bit ridiculous.
Jess Dante
It is, it is. When I tell that story to people that, because people always ask, like, how did how did you meet? And I say, oh, on hinge and they're like, oh, okay, and then they like talk about their dating disaster or like, dating disaster stories and things like that. And I was like, Yeah, I just went on literally one date and
Hannah Witton
You have a 100% success rate from dating apps.
Jess Dante
Exactly. Hey, I am an overachiever, I guess, so I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Honestly. Okay, I'm gonna dive into some of our questions from our followers on Instagram. Lots of people wanted to know, did you prepare for a divorce? Prenup? Question mark.
Jess Dante
Ooo. Yeah, so no. I didn't have a prenup. And it was something a postnup, there was a very, very brief mention from my ex of a postnup. But nothing was, it never came to fruition. So the only thing I would say is when I had a feeling, when I knew that there's a potential that we were going to be splitting up, then I kind of started to tuck some of my own money away into my own savings account just to hold on to to start preparing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I remember reading an article a couple years ago about having a fuck off fund. And basically just like having some money aside, in a savings account, basically like an emergency fund, but that is just yours. So that if you ever do leave a relationship by choice or because you have to for whatever reason, like you've got some funds, you got some money to keep yourself alive.
Jess Dante
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with that. And also for people who are married, and that would have to go through a divorce. If you use lawyers, and you're the person that makes less money in the relationship, you if, even if your partner ends up paying for your lawyer fees, there, there's no guarantee that you're going to be able to get them to pay those fees upfront. So you will have to front the bills for your lawyer until the final settlement comes through, which could be months or years down the line.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.I didn't know that.
Jess Dante
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So, you guys, always have your divorce lawyer fund ready?
Jess Dante
Yes. Exactly. And they're really expensive. I think mine was like, I think he was like 200 pounds an hour.
Hannah Witton
Oof.
Jess Dante
Yeah
Hannah Witton
And then how many hours does it take?
Jess Dante
Well, I mean, I would say ours wasn't like, it wasn't, because obviously, like I said, we didn't have a house together, we didn't have any children, obviously. But mine ended up being like, over three, I think it was like 3500 pounds altogether, which is low, I think that's low for what people usually end up having to pay, in terms of hours.
Hannah Witton
Still a lot of money to end a relationship.
Jess Dante
It's a lot of money, especially considering we didn't go into mediation for splitting of assets. We tried to do everything as much as we could, ourselves. And still it came out to that much money. Yeah, and it's not like and you have to pay it every month. So you get the bill. And, and they and they also itemise it, which is great, but also the worst because you literally see that, if they, the lawyer responds to an email that you sent it cost like 27 pounds, mine was I think. Yeah, it's like, wow, I gotta call 27 pounds for him to reply to that email
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness, maybe that's some like, there's a good piece of advice in here where like, maybe don't send constant emails to your divorce lawyer every time you have a question, like, stock up all of your questions, and then email them all in one go. So it's as cost effective, cost efficient as possible.
Jess Dante
Exactly, exactly. Or maybe a phone call. If you can have a really efficient 15 minute phone call, it might be better.
Hannah Witton
No small talk, just be like, down to business, I know that you're clocking these minutes.
Jess Dante
Exactly. They have to get paid. I get I do get it, but it's just a little heartbreaking.
Hannah Witton
It's an extra stink getting that invoice every month and you're going through a divorce. Somebody asked, What's your biggest learning from the experience?
Jess Dante
My biggest learning? I think I probably have two of them. I think one of them would be to not be in my next like, long term relationships, to make sure I'm more independent from my partner. Which I didn't
Hannah Witton
Do mean, like financially and just practically and in terms of social circles as well.
Jess Dante
Yes,I do. Yeah, exactly. For financially, I mean, obviously, I think that's pretty obvious. But just being able to, like you said, Have that fuck off fund if you need to leave immediately, if something's going on, or even if you don't, just to just to have one less thing to be completely stressed out about. I think that that is, I think that's really important. And then yeah, and the friend circle too. I mean, I had, it was very difficult for me because I wanted, I mean, I obviously wanted to be good friends with my ex's friends and that was like, ended up being my main social circle, because I moved
Hannah Witton
And you'd moved to a new country.
Jess Dante
Yeah
Hannah Witton
To be with him as well. So yeah. You were like setting up roots, but kind of like through him,I guess.
Jess Dante
Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly it. So I wish I had, I do have a really good small core group of friends here and they were, they've, to this day have been absolutely amazing and so supportive. But I wish I had just, I guess, built a little bit more of a separate life to help prepare for all of this a little bit more, but I also think it's quite healthy to have that. Just in general to so because you don't have to do everything together, I guess. You can if you want to. Yeah,
Hannah Witton
No, you don't have to. Someone asked, did getting divorce taint your view on love?
Jess Dante
It didn't taint my view on love, but it tainted my view on marriage for for sure. Absolutely.
Hannah Witton
Oh really?
Jess Dante
Yeah
Hannah Witton
You kind of like not interested in getting married again?
Jess Dante
No, I definitely wouldn't get married again. For sure.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Jess Dante
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Why?
Jess Dante
Because going through the divorce where you don't just get to break up and then never see each other again and never speak to each other. That was, I just couldn't deal with going through that again. And I, again, I don't want to have children. So obviously people who do want to have children, I think that's
Hannah Witton
Marriage has a slightly different meaning.
Jess Dante
Right, yeah, exactly. But I just don't really, I don't really see the point personally for me if I'm going to build my own life and I think yeah, I think it's, I don't know, I just, it's just not for me.
Hannah Witton
Fair enough. Fair enough. And somebody asked, What do you consider about your relationship before getting married? Do you have any hot tips?
Jess Dante
Right. Okay. Well, I mean, spoiler alert from the story, definitely see if you're on the same page about children.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Jess Dante
That's probably a good one to start with.I think, so, It was really interesting listening to your episode with the divorce lawyer because she was saying about how in the UK the prenup is not legally binding, which I did not know that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. But it is taken into consideration.
Jess Dante
Right. Yeah. So I, I mean, I personally think that going through the exercise of creating a prenup, I think is probably very good for people who are wanting to get married because, and I haven't been through doing a prenup, so I can't say for sure, but the biggest thing that couples fight over is finances. So going through the exercise of setting out like the different scenarios of, If this happens, this, this is what we expect to happen. If this happens, here's what we would expect to happen. I think probably will show if you guys are on the same page with how you feel about finances and what you value in life. And yeah, and also, I guess, just how you value me. Now I'm gonna,
Hannah Witton
I'll put an exercise in communication as well, I think because like, you don't have to actually get a prenup and like, pay a lawyer to do the paperwork for you. You could just like open a Google Doc together and be like, if we were to ever break up who gets what. Like, you know what I mean, like, you could just sit down together and talk about it and write it down. Yes, that's not legally binding. But neither is a prenup. But, but like you said, it's like it's an exercise. And the process of doing that together will show you more about your relationship than what the actual outcome of that document is.
Jess Dante
Yes, that's exactly that's exactly it. Because you guys, you might have completely different mindsets on money in general. One of you might think that if you get divorced that you one person should, the higher earner, shouldn't pay anything to the lower earner. And the lower earner might think, how that's not what I think. And it's, you know, I don't want to start fights between couples but it like those, those are the hard questions that will come up if anything does happen, or maybe even if something doesn't happen. But I also think that it's probably better to have those conversations when you guys are both in a good place, and not when you're angry, and depressed and hurt and grieving. And then things can just go all over the place and it just makes the whole process 10 times worse.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's such a good point, like have the conversation when you like each other.
Jess Dante
Yeah, exactly. But also, make sure you stick up yourself. So don't just be like, oh, no, I don't want any, like, I won't want any of your money when we got divorced, like you do also have to, like be realistic about it and be like, Okay, well.
Hannah Witton
Dan is such a funny one. Because he's he keeps saying to me, it's like, well, if we ever get divorced, like you can have everything, I'll just like, go off and live in the wilderness. And I'm like, no. Like, one, if we have children, I'm not letting you bugger off. Like, please take like half of the assets so that we can both independently raise the same children as well. Because like, hypothetically, if we do have kids, you know, one of the things that the divorce lawyer and episode also said was it's about like, can you both like financially like, sustainably raise the kids as two separate households rather than as like, as one household together? So I'll be like, no, please. Like, don't give me all the things.
Jess Dante
Also, Ithought you were just about to say, you're going to need to take half of the children instead of half of the household
Hannah Witton
We get 50% of children each. Could you imagine.
Jess Dante
Could you imagine. I mean, I know I don't have children and don't have plans on doing it, but I don't think it works like that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I don't think so either. Weird that. The final question. Somebody asked, and I think this is a really like telling one because I'm like, Yeah, I feel it. Someone said, I can't imagine ever leaving my current partner. Did you feel that way also? Because doesn't everyone feel that way when they're in the relationship?
Jess Dante
Well, yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Nobody gets married thinking that they're going to split up one day. That's why, you know, you have to protect yourself and plan for it, if that happens, because you might be happy for six years and live your great life. But then, you want to you decide you don't want to have children or, you know, one of you needs to move. I don't know, if there's a million different reasons, but nobody, nobody expects that they will split up with from their partner, when they get married, or even when they're in relationships. So I'm glad that this person says that they can't envision splitting up with them. Because if they could, that would be, I would say, that'd be a red flag.
Hannah Witton
I like, I like to do exercises and imagining it. Like, not that I like the outcome of it. But in order to like, sometimes have those conversations with Dan, we have to kind of be like, okay, so if this were to happen, but it's, but I can't like in my heart, imagine it, if that makes sense.
Jess Dante
Yeah. That's, that makes sense. And I think that, it's you can't like, you can't ever imagine someone or you can do that kind of exercise where you kind of put the scenarios in your head. But it is, it's difficult to imagine a life different without somebody in it. Like, whether it's your parents, or your a family member, or your best friend, or anyone. So I I do get that. But I think probably most people feel that way, too.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jess, thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing your experience with me.
Jess Dante
Oh, thank you for having me. This is the first time by the way, I've spoken. This sounds very dramatic, but spoken publicly about my divorce. I feel like I'm on TMZ or something. But
Hannah Witton
Exclusive!
Jess Dante
Exactly. But you've made a very safe space. So thank you.
Hannah Witton
Aw, I'm glad. Where can people find you, and what you do online?
Jess Dante
So I don't, like I said, I don't usually talk about divorce online. But I do talk about all things London, so if you ever want to visit London, you can go to my YouTube channel, which is LoveandLondon.com or youtube.com/loveandLondon.
Hannah Witton
Lovely. Well, thank you so much, and thank you all for listening, Bye! Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at doingitpodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
Hannah Witton
This was a global original podcast