Eat, Gay, Love: LGBTQ+ Travel with Calum McSwiggan | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hi, everyone, welcome back. It is season three of Doing It. I am so excited to dive into this season. Thank you so much for being patient with us over the last couple of weeks as we've taken a bit of a break. But I have been recording with lots and lots of exciting and interesting people, and here we are. Episode one of season three.
My guest today is absolutely wonderful. And I may be a bit biased because he is one of my best friends and he is also our first double guest on Doing It. And it is Calum McSwiggan who is an LGBTQ plus writer, advocate, and now author. So in this episode, we talk about his debut LGBTQ plus travel memoir, Eat, Gay, Love, which actually comes out tomorrow, the day after this podcast is going live on the ninth of July. So the book is out ninth of July. So if you haven't pre ordered it already, do that. It is wonderful. I got an advance copy, so I got to read it already and it is just wonderful. In this episode, Calum and I talked about the book, we talk about his experiences travelling as a gay man in all different parts of the world, and meeting amazing and wonderful LGBTQ plus people in all of the different places that he went. We talked about how the book may make it seem that it's a complete coincidence that he connected with so many LGBTQ plus people on his travels, but how in reality, LGBTQ plus people are everywhere. And we talk a lot about visibility, we talk about Calum's privilege as a white, cis, gay man within the LGBTQ plus community, we talk a lot about community, about what home means, about the kindness of strangers, and then also penises.
Thank you so much for listening, and your continued support of this podcast. If you would like to please do leave a rating and a review over on iTunes. It means a lot and really helps us out. Also, if you didn't know, we have a Twitter and an Instagram account over at @DoingItPodcast on both of those platforms. So please give us a follow over there, and it's the best place for you to be able to join in the conversation after these episodes, where we post further thoughts and resources and it's a place where you can get in touch with us. And now without further ado, here is the first episode back of season three. And I hope that you enjoy it.
Hello, Calum, welcome, and welcome back. You're my first double guest.
Calum McSwiggan
I'm really excited to be your first ever guest.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And the first time you came on this podcast, we were talking about somebody else's book.
Calum McSwiggan
And now we talk about my -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly, how cool is that?
Calum McSwiggan
It's very cool. Very cool.
Hannah Witton
So we're good friends. So I know a lot about you, but why don't you introduce yourself to listeners who might not be aware of who you are, and what you do?
Calum McSwiggan
Yes, so I Calum I was, I'm gonna say I was an LGBT plus youtuber and in recently -
Hannah Witton
I thought you were going to say I was LGBT
Calum McSwiggan
Um, and now I've kind of moved away from that world now. Like I still, my roots are still there, I still love it, but I've kind of drifted away from that now and now trying to get full into the full time writer world.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
And my first book is out and that's why we're here, to talk about it.
Hannah Witton
It is! And I got an advanced copy of it. It's called Eat, Gay, Love.
Calum McSwiggan
And you read it on your sun lounger.
Hannah Witton
I did, on my sun lounger, on my balcony, in lockdown. And it's a travel book so felt felt like proper escapism from current times.
Calum McSwiggan
From this world were trapped in.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, pretty much. So I thought I would start with just because you have so many crazy stories and, as your friend, you'd always just be like, oh, yeah, like that time when I was doing this, or that time when I was in this country, and this happened, and I was just like, what on earth? Who are you? And do you remember when I asked you to draw me a timeline? I was like, I cannot place all of these things.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, you were like, I literally do not understand your life. I need you to map out in front of me. And I think we were in Menorca at the time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
When we genuinely sat down with a bit of paper, and I mapped out my life so you could understand the nonsense. Because like my early 20s, in particular, were just ridiculous and all over the place. And even I think back now and I'm like, I I find it hard to believe that that was my life.
Hannah Witton
Well, it happened.
Calum McSwiggan
It happened
Hannah Witton
I feel like that, like, that timeline that you drew out for me, that was like the logistical like, here I was, at this time, kind of thing. And then your book is like the emotional roadmap of it.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Of like, this is how I was feeling, and this is what happened. And this is like, how this experience changed me or like what it taught me. So it's quite nice to be able to, like fit it all together.
Calum McSwiggan
It's it's, it's, my dad actually said that when he read it, he felt like he understood so much more about me that he never really cracked. And I thought that was quite touching that he thought that you know, because he's my father, he's been there through all of this. He's, you know, I told him these stories. I've talked him about all of these things. But he, he said reading it, it gave him almost a new insight into me, which I thought was really, really sweet.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, that's so nice. And your parents like feature in the book, a little bit.
Calum McSwiggan
They do! I say really nice things about them. My my mum struggled to get to that bit though, because there's like a lot of sex beforehand and she didn't like reading those bits. So she actually stopped reading, she was like, I can't do this, Calum.
Hannah Witton
How did you feel about your parents reading those bits?
Calum McSwiggan
I like, I kind of didn't want them to, but at the same time, it's my first book. So of course, I had to have my parents and I wanted them to read my first book. But yeah, at the same time, yeah, like there are parts that are quite explicit.
Hannah Witton
Ah well.
Calum McSwiggan
Ah well. They did persevere. And when they read the bits about them, they they I think they were really touched which which was lovely.
Hannah Witton
Ah, that's so sweet. So I asked for some people's questions on on Instagram, and we'll get to some of them later, but one of them, and I feel like people will be wondering this, is what what do you think of, and do you like, and I know the answer to this, Eat, Pray, Love?
Calum McSwiggan
Oh, my God. I love Eat, Pray Love. It's probably my favourite book. I absolutely adored it. And I read that book, like just before I went travelling myself.
Hannah Witton
Ah, so it like really -
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, I genuinely believe it kind of gave me the courage to go out there and live these adventures. Yeah, so I absolutely adore that book. And it's massively impacted Eat, Gay, Love as well. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, not just in name.
Calum McSwiggan
No, yeah, it's not just a name. Like I didn't just pick it out of the sky and go oh, this is this is a silly play on words. I was like no this this, Eat, Pray, Love actually meant a lot to me, so that's why I chose that title. I hope Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote Eat, Pray, Love is okay with me doing that though. Like I'm sure she's she's a busy woman. She's very successful. I'm she's not sat around the house worried about this. But yeah, I do.
Hannah Witton
I wonder if you'll have a Julia and Julia moment. Have you seen that film?
Calum McSwiggan
Is that with Meryl Streep?
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember that movie.
Hannah Witton
Julia, Julia Child, this is a complete tangent. Julia Child's is a famous chef. And then Julie, a New Yorker who's like written a blog going through all of her recipes. And then she basically finds out that, or she just hears that Julia Child's like, had heard of her, but like, didn't have anything positive to say about her. And it like breaks her.
Calum McSwiggan
Oh.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So maybe maybe like don't inquire about how Elizabeth Gilbert feels about you, if she ever hears about it book.
Calum McSwiggan
She does follow me on Twitter. She just follows she follows like a couple 100 people, no idea why she follows me, but she does. So you know, maybe maybe maybe the book will, you know, she'll happen upon it one day, and hopefully -
Hannah Witton
Maybe she'll unfollow you.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah she's like -
Hannah Witton
Uh oh
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, fingers crossed not for that
Hannah Witton
Yeah, fingers crossed not that. Well give us a bit of more context of what the book is about then.
Calum McSwiggan
So it's a LGBT plus travel memoir, and it follows me from the I come to the end of a long term relationship. I was in a five and a half year relationship, I was engaged. It was the first gay man I ever met, and we lived together, we had built this life together, and then that came to an end. And I was kind of left in a place where I genuinely didn't know what to do, I'd built my whole life around this person and suddenly, I didn't have that anymore. So I kind of, I lost my boyfriend and my fiance, but I also lost my home, and I lost my job, and having parents who lived in a different country, I just didn't know what to do. So I left, and I went to Italy, and that was kind of the beginning of what ended up being two years of travelling, taking me all over the world, Thailand, India, Germany, Switzerland, ending up back in London. And yeah, and is it but it's really it is it is a tribute to all of the incredible LGBT plus people I met around the world, because everywhere I went, I met just fascinating, LGBT plus people who all have their own stories, and all had very different lives because of their very different cultures they lived in.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I think that really comes across in your book about it being a celebration of like, all of these different people, like as a as the reader, like, obviously, we, we grow to, like, learn about you and and what you're like, but then you're just like highlighting all of these different people, and we fall in love with all of them as well. And it's just like, ah, Matteo. All of these people.
Calum McSwiggan
When I was writing, I, you know, I really did want it to be about them, to the point that my editor did keep giving me feedback, being like it, you know, it's great that we're celebrating these other people. But like, tell us a little bit more about you and tell us a bit more about your emotional experience. Because I was just like, so obsessed with these incredible people and telling their stories, that I kind of forgot to tell my own. And that's why we have editors.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we love book editors. Thank you for your assistance. This, this is one of the things that I wrote down actually. I was just like, you met so many LGBTQ plus people. And I think that, potentially, you might get if any straight people who read it or hear about the book, have this reaction of like, how did you find them all? Like, or, have you ever had that response? Because like, is it because you're gay, that you're like seeking out these kinds of where they might also be, like the communities and the locations? Or is it just the fact that like, LGBTQ plus, people are everywhere, and you only have to, like care and look hard enough, you know, not even that hard to see them?
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, no, it absolutely is that. You know, there are LGBT plus people everywhere. And when you are travelling as a queer person, like I was very much looking for my community, every single place I went. And I think if you were travelling as maybe a cis straight person, then you might not notice those people, those people would just pass you by. But they are absolutely everywhere, and I have a it's interesting because I have had that feedback before, not not from people who've read the book, but just from people who've spoken to me about my stories. And you know, because I often tell them at dinner parties and things like this. People are often so shocked and surprised I managed to find LGBT people everywhere, people are often very surprised that I managed to find LGBT people in India, where they don't have as much of an overt gay scene. And again, one of the things that comes up time and time again, the Italy section, I talk a lot about one of my students in my class who came out to me as gay, is that a spoiler? Maybe that's a spoiler.
Hannah Witton
No, there's no spoilers when it comes to your life.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, that's true. And so many people say to me, you know, what are the what are the chances that the gay kid ended up being in your class, and I always have the same response, and I say in the book as well. And it's that there are LGBT kids in every single classroom.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
In every single school, all around the world. And although I just tell the story of this one kid coming out to me, it was actually very, very, very common that I would go to work in different schools, and I would always have, you know, at least one gay kid end up coming out to me because they often hadn't met very many LGBT plus people themselves. But yeah, people people seem surprised by that, like, oh, what are the chances, the gay kid was in your class. It's like, no, there are gay kids in every single class.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's like a 100% chance there'll be a gay kid in your class.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, literally.
Hannah Witton
But then like, depending on who you are as a teacher and the kind of environment that you foster in your school, and the country probably as well, like, you might not know about it.
Calum McSwiggan
Absolutely. Like, even like yourself, Hannah, you're the most open minded, liberal person I know. But I think if you were the teacher -
Hannah Witton
Wow, why thank you.
Calum McSwiggan
That was quite a compliment.
Hannah Witton
That was a pretty big compliment. I actually don't believe it, but I'll take it.
Calum McSwiggan
But I feel like if even if you were stood there in front of a class, then, you know, the, the gay kid might not come out to you, because you're not LGBT plus yourself. They might not, even know they know you're accepting, they might not feel comfortable enough to come out to you. So and I think that's, you know, a really important distinction to make.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And about the like, school part of your book as well. I think one of the things that really stood out to me was about, promise to yourself to not hide your sexuality, and not lie about it, and like, almost be like, be forced back into the closet. But when you're in a teaching role, and you're, you know, you're you're responsible for young people, often, the other adults around and above you are telling you don't talk about it.
Calum McSwiggan
It's difficult. And I think it comes back to this over sexualization of LGBT plus people. And there's the idea that you can't tell your students that you're gay, or trans, or queer, because that's somehow an adult thing to talk about. But -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
But you know, it's and I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not saying I'm going to sit sit there in front of the class, and then tell them in detail about the boys I'm dating or anything like that, but like, just to say, you know, I'm a gay man.
Hannah Witton
But you wouldn't expect like a straight teacher to do that as well. But -
Calum McSwiggan
Exactly, yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's this this, yeah, it's like, it being about love and families. Like that's something that you can do with really young kids. If you were like, my boyfriend.
Calum McSwiggan
And and like, it's, again, this, this would have been the year before the book actually starts. But when I was engaged, and I was wearing the engagement ring on my hand, the kids would always, always ask about that, you know, who is she etc. And to be expected to just to not correct them is, I'm not a fan of that.
Hannah Witton
It does everyone a disservice.
Calum McSwiggan
It does everyone a disservice. It does me a disservice, it does the kids a disservice. It just it just does society as a whole a disservice. Hannah. I am I allowed to ask you a question?
Hannah Witton
Yes, go for it.
Calum McSwiggan
I know this is like a really like narcissistic, selfish, question to ask but I'm really, I'm really, I'm really curious to know, like, what was your favourite part of the book? I guess without giving too much away?
Hannah Witton
Um, what was my favourite part of the book? I think I kind of just spoke about it a bit then. I really liked the school scenes and the politics of the, you know, the people telling you, don't mention it, and, but then also there being this, like, through line about the family that you were staying with, and their son was potentially not straight.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And then the kid like all of that, like, just how I guess intertwined, like community is to whether or not you feel comfortable and safe to be able to talk about your sexual orientation, like. I think you did, it was just ,so, a really nice job of like telling a story, but then like, telling this message of how, even if, like, like, you arrived in Italy when pride was happening in Rome. So it's like, even if that like a pride celebration is happening down the road, within your small community, where everyone knows everyone, and everyone talks about each others secrets, and like, it's all about reputation. And it's like those two things happen simultaneously.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, it's, again, it seems almost unlikely and yet, it happens and it happens, these things are happening all the time.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I said this to you the other day as well, but the way that you described the in the was in Berlin? Like one of the clubs scenes, when you were taking drugs.
Calum McSwiggan
Yes. It was a Ibiza part.
Hannah Witton
One of the one of the club scenes, we love to see it. And yeah, I just, there's just so many wild stories. But so, I think you do a really great job of like, the ooh, juicy gossip like oh, let's tell the story of this like crazy wild night I had, but then like, okay, here's some serious shit I want to tell you about LGBTQ plus rights.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, and you know, it was it was it was kind of difficult as well. You know, I wanted to be like, completely transparent and open and honest about everything. And you know, when it comes to things like taking drugs, that was something I did when I was travelling, and that is something that's in the book. I wanted to be honest about that. But if you look at perhaps my, you know, five, six year career on YouTube, that is something that I would have never, ever said.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
To my audience. And I think for me, it's a, it's a shift in who I'm talking to, as well. Like, I definitely feel like I'm talking to adults with this book. Whereas, you know, my YouTube channel and things, I think it was often geared for a younger audience.
Hannah Witton
Is that the only thing? Or is that just something about, like, the medium of writing that feels like you can, I don't know, tell more of your secrets than a YouTube video? I found that, personally, when writing.
Calum McSwiggan
I think there's more space in writing, because you can really, you know, get the message that you want to get across. So you can say, look, here's, here's this thing, and it may be presenting me in perhaps an unfavourable light. But I'm going to give you context to that. And I'm going to explain why, and I'm going to explain what happened, and then I'm going to give you some information about, you know. If we're talking about drug taking, for instance, you know, giving context to that within the LGBT plus community, giving context to how damaging and dangerous that can be. Whereas in a, in a short YouTube video, I feel like it's difficult to add all of that nuance.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because you go into so many different issues that are facing the LGBTQ plus community, but they're all just stemmed from your personal experience and people that you meet. Like, you talk about the fact that, like, young homelessness amongst LGBT plus people is really high. But it's not just like, oh, here are some facts. It's like you, you, you start talking about it, because you meet a young man who's homeless?
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah. And again, I think it's what it's one of those things, it's like, oh, what are the chances, he meets an LGBT plus homeless person. It's like, well, there are so many LGBT plus homeless people, that it's actually not as unlikely as you would think. And I think with, you know, not just that story, but so many of the stories in the books, I think, for non LGBT people reading it, it's like, gosh, like, an awful lot is happening to these, to this one person. But I genuinely think if you go and interview, you know, pretty much any LGBT plus person, you'll find so many of the same kinds of stories coming from them. You know, you don't just come out as LGBT plus, and then that's that. There's a whole culture and almost like, an underworld of this whole new life, that you perhaps wouldn't recognise or realise that was there. And again, you know, yourself, I think, perhaps you might not even realise, to the extent of what LGBT plus culture is, even though you are so connected to it, and you have so many LGBT friends, and you do so much work around it. Even you know, being an ally, you're still not going to get that same kind of clear vision of what it means to be LGBT plus, if that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, no, that definitely makes sense. And I do feel that like, as much as I try and understand it's just like, you're never gonna fully understand, you know, or never fully, you know, be able to like, well, you know, I'll never have those experiences.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, just like, I'll never have the experience of being a woman or so many other things.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I was wondering what advice you have for gay men who are travelling. Well once Coronavirus, lockdown, and everything else and we can travel again. You know, because you have two years of experience experience of travelling as a gay man, like, what advice would you give to young gay men who are like, I want to travel the world?
Calum McSwiggan
I think, this sounds quite negative, but I don't mean it to be. I think prepare yourself for a degree of loneliness. I think when I started travelling, you know, even talk even referencing, Eat, Pray, Love, you know, I just finished reading that and then I went off on my travels. I think what I realised quite quickly is that, you know, when you're travelling as a straight person, the opportunities for like a romance, or a one night stand, or like a hookup, or like a chance encounter with an interesting person, not that everything you know, has to do with sex and romance, it doesn't. But I do think it's such a big part of it. And then, you know, I would have you know, so many of my friends travelling and, oh I went to Italy and I met these like 12 hot Italian men, and then I met this hot Australian guy and then like, we fell in love, and we did this, and we did that. When, certainly for me travelling, so much of the time I was just so lonely. And I just found that all of the straight people around me where, you know, constantly finding these little summer romances and things, and I just wasn't.
Hannah Witton
And like one that you did have was like a complete secret.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, exactly. The ones that I do have, and the one that I do talk about in the book, they're still not the same. They're all quite difficult and again, I don't want to say too much, but they're all kind of wrapped up in their own problems, I guess. It's it was never a clear cut, oh, I meet a nice guy, and we hit it off, and then -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, here's your cookie cutter, like heteronormative summer romance story.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, so that would be my first thing. So make sure that, you know, you prepare yourself for potential loneliness. And when you are travelling, you do spend an awful lot of time on your own regardless. And then my second point would be to find find your community, find the LGBT plus community, there are not everywhere in the world, obviously. But in many places, you know, you can find a gay scene, you can find people to talk to, and I find there's something about being the stranger from out of town, that makes people more inclined to talk to you and be kind to you and be friends with you. Because the best experiences I've had when travelling is from meeting the locals. And they'll be like, oh, come to my friend's house, or oh, let's go to this bar, or let me take you to this place. So find the community.
Hannah Witton
Especially, like with some LGBTQ plus scenes, they won't be like as obvious. So you won't necessarily know exactly where to go, unless you first find the people I guess.
Calum McSwiggan
And like with, with India, as an example, they do have like, I'm actually specifically talking about New Delhi, I shouldn't really talk about the entire country. But in New Delhi, they have gay bars and things, but they're not obviously marked. So you kind of have to, would need to know in advance, where to go. And I think I was quite lucky in India that I just so happened to meet a person who I mean, their sexuality still isn't entirely clear to me. But yeah, somebody who I who I felt was LGBT plus from the off, and I was lucky in that respect. Grindr, and I know Grindr is usually a hookup app, like finding people to have sex with -
Hannah Witton
But you can also use it as like a radar thing. Like, right, where are they?
Calum McSwiggan
To this day, when I go to a new city or a new country, I open up Grindr because it shows me all the closest gay people. And, you know, as long as I'm honest about my intentions, you know, I'm from out of town, I'm looking for a friend, I'm looking to hang out, I'm not actually looking for sex. You know, you can genuinely make really good friends there. And I, in the book, I briefly briefly briefly mentioned a pair of Italian twins that I befriended. And that and that was through Grindr, and I'm still friends with them to this day.
Hannah Witton
A Grindr success story.
Calum McSwiggan
Yes.
Hannah Witton
We will love to hear it. So I think like one of the common themes, like the main theme that I, at least I felt like coming through from the book, and you'd mentioned it just then as well was about community.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, it's always coming back to this. And, and also, like you finding your community in all of the different places that you're going, but ultimately, it being like, a search for home as well. And, and what that means to you. So I was just wondering, like, what was it about London that made you go, this is home. And what is it about like the LGBTQ plus community in London that, like drew you here?
Calum McSwiggan
I think it's quite an easy, simple answer, I think. And I think it's just because those are the two things that made me. Not London, specifically, but the UK as the country I grew up in. I think, you know, you always have that kind of affinity to your home country. And I think that's ultimately what brought me back here. I don't think there's anything specific about the UK that that drew me to come back here.
Hannah Witton
Just familiarity.
Calum McSwiggan
Just familiarity. And it's like having those, you know, growing up with people who understand what a Sunday roast is, you know,. Because you go to America and they look at you blankly, they don't understand.
Hannah Witton
They're just like, what? It's called Thanksgiving dinner, we have once a year. And I'm like, excuse me? We have it once a week.
Calum McSwiggan
And then with the LGBT plus community, I think it's again, people who understand and people who have had so many of the same lived experiences. I think the most interesting thing about the LGBT plus community is how different we all are. And yet we still have the same threads that hold us together. And I think that's what keeps bringing me back here and also knowing you know, I've been to so many countries all over the world and found, felt like I was home every time I've walked down you know, the street with the rainbow flags, every time I walk into a gay bar, every time I you know, befriend and LGBT couple. I'm like, oh okay, I'm I'm welcome here. I'm safe here. And then there's something quite homely about that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
And, you know, the even Old Compton Street, here in London, in the heart of Soho. I just every time I walked on that street, I feel like that I'm home, right here on this street, in the middle of the Gay Village. This this is my home. This is where I belong. And I think I will always feel that way.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah, I love that. Obviously, being part of the LGBTQ plus community, there's still very much a marginalised community, and there's a lot of homophobia. Even you know, even in the UK still. But within the community, your white gay man.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like you, probably, if in the hierarchy of, of oppression rankings
Calum McSwiggan
I'm the least oppressed, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And, and you're very vocal on social media like about, you know, supporting trans rights and, like supporting those, like black LGBTQ plus people, like, why is that so, like, important to you? And like, was that something that was, like a gradual thing in learning that like, oh, actually, like, within my marginalisation, I actually have a lot of privilege. Was that something that you kind of learnt along the way? Or what was that process?
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I grew up, growing up in a small little town where I didn't really know any LGBT plus people, and, you know, the LGBT plus people I knew were really, you know, a few white gay men. And that really was it. That was all I knew. And I think, within the confines of that being my understanding, and that being my knowledge, I think, at that time in my life, I did feel like things were hard, and it was hard to be LGBT plus, and then I kind of found my feet and and landed into the life I have now. And suddenly, it's like, wow, you don't have it hard at all. And there are all these people out there who are, who are struggling so much more than that society is just against. I mean, the abuse that trans people get is absolutely abhorrent, and it's happening now, in 2020, the front pages of the newspapers is constantly attacking trans people. We have, you know, the world's most famous author, attacking trans people.
And then and then that goes for queer people of colour as well. Like, not only are they, you know, discriminated against by by wider society, they're discriminated against by fellow LGBT plus people, the racism within my community is awful, and it runs rampant. So I think, you know, realising that actually, I didn't have it that hard at all, it makes me want to stand up for these other people. And again, I think that's something I wanted to get across in Eat, Gay, Love, is I feel like, I touch very briefly upon, you know, a whole range of issues, whether that's, you know, trans issues, especially outside of the UK, where things are even more complicated, or queer homelessness, like we spoke about already. But I really just touch upon them, like this book just skims the surface, and I really hope a big takeaway from people is that they read it and go, well, I want to learn more about this now. And I want to learn how I can help because the answers are not the, and if, and if you're coming to my book looking for the answers, then they're not there, this is an invitation to, I guess, pique people's interest. And then from there, that's where you know, the learning and the education begins.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I do think you do a good job of like, one, you're like a very good writer, so like, thank you, even you're even like a really good writer in your tweets. When I see you like being angry about like, either racism within the LGBTQ plus community, or like transphobia, like society wide, like, the way that you word it is just like so clear, and just like, right, we cannot stand for this.
Calum McSwiggan
Thanks you, that's a very nice compliment.
Hannah Witton
Great politics, great writing. And there's a couple more questions from Instagram, from our followers there. What was your favourite part about writing the book?
Calum McSwiggan
My like, my favourite section of the book? or the part of the process?
Hannah Witton
Erm, both!
Calum McSwiggan
Both. Okay. I think Thailand is my favourite section of the book. And I think I got the most enjoyment from writing that section.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
Because I think culturally It was such an such a different experience. You know, I was living in an animal sanctuary, with Buddhist monks, out in a forest temple in the middle of nowhere. We didn't have running water or electricity.
Hannah Witton
When you wrote in the book, the bit where it's like, oh, and I got this job, I was like, how? Were you looking for that kind of job?
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, so the, the way that I got the job working in the animal sanctuary with the tigers, was that ever since I was at all, I was obsessed with the Lion King. And my obsession with the Lion King led me to wanting to be a zookeeper.
Hannah Witton
Right. I was gonna say, there's I don't think there's any tigers in the Lion King, that's the Jungle Book.
Calum McSwiggan
So I, so I started looking for jobs working with lions in Africa. And I found a couple of jobs, but they weren't really jobs. They were like experiences where you pay for the privilege. And I was like, yeah, I'm living on the road, I need to earn money. But and so while looking for jobs working with the lions, I happen to find this job working with the tigers. And I thought, you know what, I'll just apply. I'm obviously not going to get this ridiculous job. And and I did. And it well, it didn't pay very much at all, it paid like five pounds a day, which, but in in Thailand, in the middle of the countryside, that that money went far. So yeah, it paid very little, but one of the best experiences of my life and getting to relive that, but through through writing was incredible. And it was difficult, though, because there's so much I wanted to say and share and obviously you've only got so many words. So I had to there, you know, I'm still going to be telling stories that aren't in this book for years and years to come. But yeah, just getting to relive that.
Hannah Witton
I hope that's not the end of your like juicy stories, because I definitely want more.
Calum McSwiggan
I have more, I have more.
Hannah Witton
Good, yeah and then like, I guess the other question about like the process of writing, like, what was your favourite part of that?
Calum McSwiggan
The process of writing isn't really very enjoyable. I'm going to be honest with you Hannah
Hannah Witton
No, I feel you, I can relate.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, like writing for me has always been, it's a slog, you know, you show up to work, you sit down in your your laptop, and you sit for hours on end, and you slave over the words, and then I get very in my head about it and I'm like, this sentence isn't perfect enough. And then you you know, tearing it apart and just trying to make it work. It's it's a difficult process. And it is work. And I would love to be like, oh, you know, I sit in a little cafe and I drink my macchiato, and I have such a lovely time of writing. But but i yeah, it doesn't, itt's hard work. But I think what I do, what I what I do like about it is I always say that I don't actually do very much writing while sat down typing it out. I feel like the real work comes when I step away from the computer, and I go for a long walk or I go for a swim.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
And that's really when the brain starts untangling things
Hannah Witton
What you do when you have an idea when you're swimming? Like do have your phone by the pool? Because you know, like when you're sleeping and you have to you're going to bed and you're like ah shit write this down before I forget.
Calum McSwiggan
I feel like for me, I feel like it's, you know, you're writing a book and you've got you've got a problem, maybe this page, or this chapter doesn't work. And I feel like once you solve that problem, it's solved.
Hannah Witton
And you'll remember, okay.
Calum McSwiggan
I'll remember, it's not it's not even hard. It's like, oh, I've cracked the solution to that. It's learning a really interesting fact, you don't just forget it 10 minutes later. Well, you might.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, fair enough. Right, so there's, there's two more questions, right. One of them is very nice and meaningful, which I'll saved the last one, but this is a genuine question that came in and I don't believe that it is a very valuable question, but it's you and I just thought it'd be funny to ask you. What's the biggest dick you've seen?
Calum McSwiggan
Oh my god.
Hannah Witton
It's actually what someone asked! I love it, but I just thought you, you'd be okay answering the question. Oh, yeah. In real life, in porn? I have no idea actually.
Calum McSwiggan
No, do they mean like in relation in relation to the book? Because there's quite a lot of willies in the book.
Hannah Witton
There is a lot of willies in the book. Erm, they didn't specify.
Calum McSwiggan
I've seen some pretty big ones. And I find it I find it very, I feel like for whatever reason gay men just seem to have big willies. I don't know why. Or maybe I'm just, I don't know,
Hannah Witton
I knew that you'd answer this question seriously.
Calum McSwiggan
I know. I'm like, now that I think about it, Hannah.
Hannah Witton
And I'm just here, giggling.
Calum McSwiggan
Um, I don't know in terms of measurements, but yeah, I've seen some some scary sized.
Hannah Witton
You mean you don't get a measuring tape out every time?
Calum McSwiggan
Oh, yeah. Carry one with me, just to, just to check.
Hannah Witton
Just ready. Okay. But in all seriousness, what is the main message that you want people to get out of your book when they read it?
Calum McSwiggan
I think I want people to really empathise and connect with the characters who, you know the real life people, in this book and to understand a little bit more about them. And I really hope that change, that that sparks a small change, just in the way that people, I want people to be kinder to each other, you know, so much of this book is about the kindness of strangers. And and I want that to be the takeaway, you know. There are all these people out there in the world and who have such big and open hearts, but at the same time that they're facing so many different challenges and struggles, and I want us to be kinder to LGBT plus people. But I want us to just be kinder to other people, inn general, like, there's so much hatred, there's so much nastiness. And I think if we all just took a little bit of time out of our day to be nicer to people that will make a huge difference. And it did to me, you know, I spent two years travelling, and I probably wouldn't have even been able to survive those two years if it wasn't for the kindness of not just one people, but the kindness of dozens and dozens of strangers I met along the way.
Hannah Witton
Aw, yeah, that's a really that's a really lovely, lovely takeaway. And I think that's kind of like what I got from it, as well as just like, just the really beautiful like tapestry of all these different characters and people and, and how whenever you seem to be in trouble, that was always like a person who was like, I shall help you.
Calum McSwiggan
I will save you, you stupid white boy.
Hannah Witton
I see that you are struggling. Let me take you under my wing.
Calum McSwiggan
And you know, I would never I would I wouldn't do it now, Hannah. I'm 30 years old now and I look back at some of the things I was doing, gallivanting around the world and I'm like, what were you doing?
Hannah Witton
Sometimes when I think about like, also, I think this needs to be said, but right, this is what, 9/10 years ago?
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, it was it was a while ago. I mean
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So I travelled at the same time as well, not for as long as you did. But I was remembering about it the other day, and I was like, hang on, didn't have a smartphone then.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like, how the hell did I get around without Google Maps? Like, you're like, not only are you travelling, like for two for two years, as a gay man, you're travelling as a gay man without a phone, like without a smartphone?
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah. And literally, and I was I was thinking this about, there's a section in the book where I'm in Germany, and I'm talking about being lost. And I feel like a modern day reader is going to be like, why don't you just take out your phone and like Google it? I didn't have a smartphone then!
Hannah Witton
Exactly. Yeah. I just I just feel like I need people to to know that before they start having those thoughts, it's like no, that didn't exist. Right. Calum, thank you so much for chatting with me.
Calum McSwiggan
Thank you.
Hannah Witton
Erm, when is the book out? When can you get it?
Calum McSwiggan
The book is out July 9, and it's I would say all good bookstores, but all the bookstores are closed so Amazon's probably your best bet.
Hannah Witton
Well, I think a lot of ,some independent book shops are opening but don't go in and overwhelm them but you can call them up and order on the phone if you want to support your local indies.
Calum McSwiggan
There you go, see you know better than I do
Hannah Witton
There you go. Erm Calum, where can people find you on the internet?
Calum McSwiggan
They can find me on Instagram and Twitter at @CalumMcSwiggan. Good luck spelling that, I'm not going to tell you how.
Hannah Witton
it will be in the show notes.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, there you go.
Hannah Witton
There you go. Well, thank you so, so much. And thank you, dear listeners. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Goodbye.
Calum McSwiggan
Bye
Hannah Witton
Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
This was a global original podcast