The Role of an Intimacy Coordinator in Sex Scenes on Set with Ita O'Brien | Transcript
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Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies. Hi, everyone, welcome back to Doing It. I hope that you are all doing well. My guest, in this episode, is someone who when I learned about their profession, I was so curious, I dived into learning lots more about it. It was like a penny dropped of like of course, we need this. And what we need is intimacy coordinators on set. And that's one set of theatre, film, and TV. My guest in this episode is Ita O'Brien, who is the founder of Intimacy On Set and the creator of the intimacy on set guidelines. She has worked on some of my favourite TV shows, and just some of the most incredible stuff that is coming out at the moment that is doing amazing things in depicting sex and intimacy on screen. She's worked on Sex Education, maybe my favourite TV show, Normal People, I May Destroy You, and Gentlemen Jack. In this episode, we talk about the industry, why she came up with the intimacy guidelines, why she felt that they were needed. We talk about how she helps actors distinguish between their personal and their professional bodies, and why that is so important when you are a professional actor on set and there are intimacy scenes involved. We talk about some specific behind the scenes stuff that went on that you might not have known, just as a viewer watching the show. We talk about the risks of doing intimacy content, checking in with actors, and communication on sets from everybody who is involved in the production. We talk about how if there is an intimacy scene, she will take the writers vision and the director's vision, but then also go to the actors and talk about their boundaries, what they are comfortable with, what they are not comfortable with, and then making sure that there is communication there, and everyone is on the same page and knows what to expect when it comes to that scene. It was an absolute pleasure to chat with Ita about the work that she does, what it means to be an intimacy coordinator, and how you can become one too, if you're interested. Thank you so much for listening. And also if you haven't watched Sex Education, Normal People, Gentlemen Jack, or I May Destroy You, what are you doing? They're all amazing TV shows and you should also go and watch them. I hope that you enjoy this episode.
Ita, thank you so much for joining me. I'm really, like excited to get to chat with you all about the work that you do. How are you?
Ita O'Brien
I'm great, Hannah, and thank you so much for your interest and for inviting me to have this sharing of the work with you.
Hannah Witton
I'm really I'm really looking forward to diving in. So I guess like the first thing that would be, in your words, like what is an intimacy coordinator? And what is their role when it in rehearsals but then also onset? Like, what, what do you do?
Ita O'Brien
So an intimacy coordinator is a practitioner, who will bring process and protocols to the intimate content from any production, be it theatre, TV, or film, and then put in place a structure in order to be that there can be agreement and consent. And that's of touch, of simulated sexual content, and of nudity, and then to be able to choreograph give a clear structure for the intimate content, so that all the physicality serves the director's vision, serves what the scene is asking for, so that everything is known and it allows the actor to bring all their skills of acting, of embodying character, of telling really good physical storytelling to the intimate scene.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and so you created these intimacy on set guidelines. Is that kind of what you're saying about like the protocol and the and the structure that is in place?
Ita O'Brien
So yes, I've sort of brought together, through my own practice, and then working in conjunction with other practitioners, who also had this awareness. So I was in conversation with a fellow practitioner, who was head of movement at Mountview, Meredith Dufton, and she was aware from having to note plays that her student actors were asked to do, you know, when they're doing the intimate content, and normally, the physicality wouldn't serve a storytelling, when she would talk to them about actually what the physicality needed to be, again, that thing of the eyes glazing over. And that sense of oh, my goodness, how do I do this? Because there was no structure in order to do it safely.
Hannah Witton
So almost just kind of like distancing themselves from it so that it didn't didn't they weren't like, really, in that scene?
Ita O'Brien
Yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely. That's one aspect of it. And then, you know, that thing of, you know, when there isn't a structure and perhaps talking about it really clearly, that thing of deep breath, and all those eyes shut, and just going for it. Like feeling, which of course, in that place, you know, that you're not going to be able to able to do your good work, your best work because, of course, if you're not really being present, open, grounded, and conscious with actually what you're doing. My other colleague was Vanessa Ewan who's one of the senior lecturers in movement at Central School of Speech and Drama. And she had had the inspiration from, you know, a good 15 years ago, of watching a rehearsal for a fight, and watching the fight director and seeing the time and the space that was given to rehearsing the fight scene, that of course, you know, you do a risk assessment. You know, if you're going to put two swords in people's hands, you're going to make sure that they're, you're not going to cause a serious injury, you're gonna teach techniques, you're gonna say, okay, this is the fight that needs to look like it's happening, and now let's find all those reverse energies and all those techniques.
Hannah Witton
Yeah,
Ita O'Brien
So it can be safe. So also, so bringing in techniques, teaching those, and then once you've taught all that choreograph, and really clearly, so that was her awareness. And so I worked in conjunction with with an Vanessa Ewan and as well, incorporating her work in conversation with Meredith, and Meredith invited me to teach the work at Mountview from April 2015. So it was our ongoing conversations, interrogating how the work was delivered, the impact that it had, working being mentored by Vanessa, and then the last bit of the jigsaw of my triangle of amazing women that were sort of very much the instigatory, or part of the pulling together of best practice ,was fer Ward-Lealand, she is a President of New Zealand Equity, she is a really experienced and amazing actor, and as well as an acting coach. And in New Zealand, of course, what had happened was that lots of the big productions were going to New Zealand, for the amazing landscape, and then all their actors been asked to do you know, full on TV series or films with intimate content, and been asked to perform all the simulated sexual scenes. And she said, so they actually drew together a green room to discuss what was been asked of them, and actually, how can they put in place best practice. And then from that green room event, they drew together guidelines and
Hannah Witton
Ah.
Ita O'Brien
Yeah, so they were published in October 2015.
Hannah Witton
Oh so it's, they've been around for a while?
Ita O'Brien
Well that was what was, so her guidelines just spoke to the actor.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay.
Ita O'Brien
And of course, I knew nothing about her, or what they had done. And as I was, as I was developing the work at the drama schools and then in 2017, the students were saying to me, well all, this is all very well to do this, here but what about when we're out in the professions? That's where I started speaking to British Equity, and they and I said, what guidelines do you have for the actor? And they sent me their legal documents, both for theatre, TV, and film, which, of course are absolutely spot on and robust as a contract to make sure that the relation, you know the agreement between the agent and the the actor and the production is set up. But of course, it doesn't actually speak to the actor. And certainly for myself, I'm a dyslexic person, all the legal terminology just makes my brain fizz.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
So the Summer of 2017 I googled again, and that's where I found Jennifer's guidelines. So she published in October 2015. So I find it really interesting how, you know, somehow there's these memes across the globe, you know, so then at the same time, I, I discovered Intimacy Directors International, in America, and they too, had been developing their own journey through to intimacy. But anyway, but I contacted Jennifer in the summer of 2017, and then in the October, I said to her, please can I use your structure, they, your, your guidelines that just speak to the actor and use that as a fundamental template on which to expand to create the intimacy on set guidelines. So all those people were, um, you know, we're really instigatory in helping to bring together the best practice and then, and then to bring together the structure that integrated all these people's, you know, awarenesses and, and then like you say, putting in place a processes and protocols, so that, you know, that the the journey through can be really robust.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's just like this pooling in of all of the these people's expertise and their experiences to create the thing that, I guess, just what wasn't there and you saw was, was necessary?. Can you give us some highlights? What's on the, what's on the the guidelines? What are some of the what's like the top points on it?
Ita O'Brien
So the top points, so I so there's three overriding arcs or tenets, which is open communication -
Hannah Witton
Is that like, between the director and the actors? Or just like between onset in general, but amongst anyone who's going to be there?
Ita O'Brien
So so that's a, that's a big shift, from the get go, from everybody. So I'm saying, to producers, right from the get go, you know, we're in, you know, then, of course, this is where the intimate content just wasn't considered as a skill. It wasn't considered as a risk assessment, as you would do a dance or a fight. So that, so as I'm inviting that shift to go, this is a body dance.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
So you're asking two people to be moving together with a rhythm, you know, in and in order to be able to tell a physical journey. And the risk is, you know, that simulated sexual content, and nudity, and where you're touched, all has an inherent risk.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
You know, and all of that has to be considered. And just as you would deal with a fight, you wouldn't expect someone to get up, if they're supposed to throw a punch, and just just, you know, you might talk about it really clear and say just go for it. You never, that's ridiculous, isn't it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Is that what the case kind of like was before people started becoming more aware about having these guidelines and in place? Was it just like, Okay, and so now your characters are going to make out and this sex act is going to happen? Off you go.
Ita O'Brien
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Ita O'Brien
Isn't that mad. So yeah, without without a sense of that being, you know, one taking the risk, and two, you know, needing to make sure that everybody knew what's happening. One of two things would happen, the director would talk about it, and either they say to both actors, you go away and work it out for yourself and come back and show me what you've created, in this sort of half embarrassed, half, you know, like, well, this is a private thing, and you need to work it out, and if you go and do that, and you sort each other out. Or the director would say, right, you know, what you're doing, put you in front of camera, now just go for it. And in both of those situations -
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow.
Ita O'Brien
Yeah. In both of those situations, one you, um, you know, so so one of the tenants of the guidelines is always have a third person present.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Ita O'Brien
Yeah, and that keeps you know, the atmosphere in which you're working, professional.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, okay. Yeah, cuz in my head, I was just thinking with the, what the one where it's like, oh, sending them off and letting them figure out themselves, it implies that it's not a professional thing that they're doing, because it's like, oh, you are having a private moment. But they're not there to professional actors, pretending to, that will be pretending to have a private moment.
Ita O'Brien
That's right.
Hannah Witton
But they're actually just at work.
Ita O'Brien
Yeah, because it's a day of work. And also, so, so in that thing where they're sent off privately, first of all, there's vulnerability there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
Where you're two people by yourselves, if somebody does something, say you have a kiss, you haven't agreed that you're going to include tongues, somebody suddenly put your tongue in their mouth or your their tongue in your mouth. Can you imagine that shock? And when you're by yourself, what's a redress? You know, you're going to call assault, you know, so so that’s the thing, two individuals by yourselves isn't isn't in the grounds of being professional.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then I guess, with having these guidelines in place that allows you to have a much more clearer idea of where like you is that if you're the if you're the performer, like where you as an individual ends, and the character begins, and you've got a really clear idea of that. So, yeah, you know what to expect.
Ita O'Brien
That's absolutely right, that what we want is that you're serving the storytelling, you're serving the director's vision, you're serving the writing, you're serving the beats of the scene, and, and all of that needs to be have your outside eye that's, that's, that's, you know, you're offering or you're choreographing, and you're making sure that is, is what you're working to and you're and your awareness is absolutely spot on, rather than you two as two people in your personal bodies, trying to take care of each other, trying to offer, is this okay for us? Is that okay for you? And that confusion, and that's what's been there before, the idea of actually bringing your profession and bringing a skill to choreographing and that process through to that point of choreography of the intimate content is that that then people who people were privately got really confused with what they were offering, or, or the emotion that was happening, within the simulator sex scenes. And that, you know, you hear of stories where, you know, someone's done a scene that's been a really fully charged, intimate scene, and then the actress has had the actor arrive at their trailer and, you know, expose themselves because they were, they were thinking that what was happening in that scene was what that person really felt for the, you know, their fellow performer. You know, and all these confusions, and I'm not saying that with the intimacy guidelines, that then there won't ever be any show romances, you know, but my hope is.
Hannah Witton
But it will be clear that that was on set.
Ita O'Brien
That's right, that's right. And before the intimacy guidelines act, directors used to go, oh, we're going to be doing, you know, this the intimate scenes tomorrow, why don't you to go out and have dinner together tonight, and get to know each other better? And so again, you're like no.
Hannah Witton
Does that help?
Ita O'Brien
So often, it says, best case scenario is that you get on well, with your fellow actor.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
Of course, we want to get on well with our fellow actor, but that doesn't just go for the intimate content. And that just goes across the board, you know, of course you want to have a really good, and respectful, and open, and fun, and, you know, free, working relationship with in our professional lives. But as far as you see, and again, before the intimacy guidelines, that that confusion of like, but if it's to look, really raunchy, surely they have to be really raunchy with each other.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Because that's also undermining them as professional actors.
Ita O'Brien
Absolutely. Absolutely. It was taking away from the fact that, you know, that this is a job of work, that they are actors bring their skill of acting. And actually, if they can bring their skill of acting to the intimate content, just like they would do, you know, a violent scene or a humorous scene, it's about their skill of acting, and that you're absolutely right, this confusion, and why it was that within the realm of intimacy, that wasn't considered that, or you that the feeling was, if it's gonna look really sexy, they've got to be really feeling it, as themselves. And as you're, it's actually going, no, you know, what, you know, they honouring the character, that they're honouring the beats of the scene, that's what's going to make the best scene. And then what's been so lovely in as in the work is being accepted, and as I've been working on, you know, I've had, you know, I feel so joyous and so privileged, to have been working on, you know, such incredible productions.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, you've worked on some amazing shows.
Ita O'Brien
Yes, absolutely, and being able to, and then bringing all of this structure to the intimate content. And that as it's gone out, Sex Education, Gentlemen, Jack, Normal People, I May Destroy You, seeing the quality of intimacy that can be created from working professionally.
Hannah Witton
Amazing. Yeah. And also, I, as a viewer of those shows, when I first learned that there was an intimacy coordinator on set, I remember feeling really relieved, just like, oh good, like, I'm glad that they were looked after. Because, I mean, all of those shows have got some, like, really quite, like intense intimacy scenes and intense sex scenes, some, like humorous and some depicting like non consensual sex acts as well. And so yeah, I would just remember being like, okay, good, that's reassuring.
Ita O'Brien
Yes, I'm so glad you said that and, you know, just this weekend as well, I've had more people contacting me saying exactly that, which is so lovely. You know, so two sides of it, one, my, you know, my reflections are that, you know, so often before we had these guidelines, as an audience, you'd watch an intimate scene and feel really awkward. And actually, what we were feeling were the actors personal uncomfortableness around doing that scene. Whereas what we want is to be able to stay enjoying the characters journey through that scene, be it for those full on romance, or be it that it's awkward or, you know, but be able to say enjoying that characters awkwardness, not feeling the actors personal uncomfortableness, and particularly in Sex Education, as you're saying.
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Ita O'Brien
So many of those scenes, and it's so beautifully written, isn't it?
Hannah Witton
Baba ghanoush, I think might have been, that's one of my favourites moments.
Ita O'Brien
Yes, it's a fantastic scene. Yeah, so we want to, as the audience, to stay enjoying the uncomfortableness because we know that we can inherently feel within our bodies, that the actors are able to just fully embody and feel comfortable within themselves, so they can really give all of their skills to, you know, to the intimate content.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I was, I was wondering, is there a difference in how you work with actors in preparation for a consensual sex scene versus the nonsense consensual sex scene?
Ita O'Brien
Um, well, if it's a full on, you know, so so for example, with the scene and I May Destroy You, can we talk to that?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the gay scene, the male scene, yeah.
Ita O'Brien
So for me, it's just that, um, the the the added care, you know, said so, so the risk that your, I am looking at in each scene is, is what the scene is asking of the actor, and then also what the actor will bring to that scene. So, for example, if it's just a kiss, it's just a kiss. But if it's a if it's a kiss, with, say, two lead actors that have been on a job for ages, and they understand each other really well, they have a really clear working relationship, they've done loads of intimate content before, you wouldn't necessarily need an intimacy coordinator present for a kiss. So for example, you know, the, on Normal People, the structure was so inherent, it was so completely understood. I was absolutely there for all the major intimate scenes but I wasn't there for all the kisses, but they absolutely had that structure in place.
Hannah Witton
Right. Okay. Yeah, because all of that that work was like done beforehand as well.
Ita O'Brien
That's, that's right. So, so it's the idea of the risk. So obviously, you're looking at what's happening, but also, what's the emotional content of, required in the scene, and that ups the risk. So in those kinds of scene, I'm even more checking in with the actors checking in that they have, if they have any concerns about the scene. And then it's really important, even more, that when the actors going to bring, you know, perhaps full on charged, challenging emotional content, that the physical structure is even more clearly choreographed and anchored, and I'd perhaps ask them to then go through the physical shape, perhaps a couple more times than I would do in, you know, so that so that the physical energy, and if the physical structure is absolutely clear, and absolutely anchored, because of course, when you know, you then you release the actual releases into the full on performance of it, then someone can really go somewhere else, or go somewhere further. And that's where physicality is absolutely clear, you know, you know, if someone's supposed to be pinned down, just looking at the techniques that you use, so that this person is so called being done to that actually has the power over where the energy is, you know, bringing in all those stage combat techniques. And then, if necessary, as I have done in the past, you know, if it goes from intimate content into violent content, use at work, I work in conjunction with a stunt coordinator.
Hannah Witton
Ah, okay.
Ita O'Brien
So that I'm bringing the intimate content, the stunt coordinator is bringing the techniques of, of the, you know, the, the violent content. So again, you know, there's all the techniques of stage combat that you use, so that you make sure the physical structures really clear so that they can be so safe in that, so then they can really release into the, into the characters emotional journey in the scene. And then the other thing that we do, which is really important, I always make sure that my actors, as it were, bookend, be aware. First of all, if you're going to do a simulated sex scene, it's, it's a body scene, you know, you're telling the story physically. So I'm saying to the actors, make sure you do a good warm up, and that warm up, you know, serves several functions. One, it serves to help be that transformational self, place from who you are on the person, getting into your bodies, doing good warm up, then being able to really be present, open, and grounded, so that you're ready then to really step in consciously serving character, serving storytelling, physical transformation.
Hannah Witton
Do you then have a cooldown?
Ita O'Brien
End of each scene, regardless of whether it's a challenging intimacy or loving one, to make sure that they bookend that they do a warm down whatever way. And again, actors have many different techniques. And so I'll talk to an actor and go, what works for you? I had an actor go, what are you doing to help you get worked down, you know, step away from the worker says, oh, I go home, and I play with my, you know, baby, one year old daughter. And I'm going, well, perhaps that's not the best, you know, to be using your daughter to be that transformation, perhaps let's think of how you can professionally put your bookending, you're stepping away from the work in place before you get to your daughter so you can really just enjoy, you know, the father daughter relationship. So, like perhaps taking your countless clothes off and stepping into your own clothes, consciously stepping away. Perhaps it's you know, shaking out, shaking through the body, doing a stretch, perhaps it's imagining you're standing under a waterfall and I'm washing that character down. But what's important is that they put in a technique so they can really consciously know that they've done a really good day of work, they've really served that storytelling, and then they can step away, so they come back to their personal selves. Yeah, so that they can, I loved it when one of my actors said that they felt clean, you know, so that they haven't got a residue of that of that character. And then stepping back home as as your personal self, ready to come back the next day, you know, again, be able to step in, in a really present and conscious way, knowing that you're using all of your skills as a professional, as a professional, rather than sort of muddying, you know, that personal and private self.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and not having to yeah, like you're saying, like, take it home with you and, and it like, then leaking into your personal life, and affecting you off set.
Ita O'Brien
One of the last bits that I will do with each scene is I'll check in with the actors, but I won't check in with them, you know, obviously, I'll check in with them on the day to make sure that they're okay. But I will check in with them a day or two later. Because that's where, you know, it's that, you know, you you've had you've slept, and that residue of sort of, you know, it's a day after, isn't it that that feeling of oh, actually, I'm feeling a bit vulnerable here. That's where it journeys to the surface. So that's where I was checking a couple of days later, and just check out everything is okay. And if not, then putting in place whatever needs to be put in place to help support that actor, if there's any concerns there, to answer those and helping them or to seek advice from a professional, or if there's something that production can help support with that, again, you're making sure that they're not left feeling vulnerable about the work that they have given the production.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this video that I saw where I think you're talking about, like doing doing a workshop of different actors, and looking at the ways different animals have sex. And I was wondering if you could speak to that, and like, why you use that in like workshops and rehearsals with actors and, and how almost, you find a way to figure out like, how that character has sex and what their that the character's sexual behaviour is.
Ita O'Brien
That's right. So again, using our tools as an actor, to that we can be transformed, transformative, we can really serve who this character is, in this relationship and all the different energies that we can look at in the body. And so that also that we can have a language, a shared language, so that we can still be detailed and precise, through the journey of choreographing the intimate content, but not have to resort back to sexual language, or indeed, we don't need to, don't want to refer to who we are, in our personal and private intimate lives, but again, really be professional. So animal workers on animal rhythms is one way of doing it. So as many drama school trainings that use animal work as part of their of their trainings, if that resounds with the actor, then that's a really good way in and looking at, perhaps it's a lion. So we're looking at what weight, what kind of weight is, where where does the lion hold their weight, what's their rhythms, and then looking at the intercourse, and it's an it's animal work is so fantastic, because it gives a whole package of breath, understanding, and rhythm. So so that's one way of doing it. But other other techniques, somebody suggested the other day about cooking; whether something is whipped up, or whether they kneading something. Yes, I hadn't thought of that before, but it's a great one.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love that.
Ita O'Brien
Another one is elements; earth, air fire and water. You know, whether you start off feeling, you know, that someone's in water, so the momentum of perhaps the waves of the sea and then, you know, as an emotion, and then your passion gets ignited the little flame of a candle, and then that grows and grows into a, you know, a volcano as it erupts. So, so all of those, you know, whatever is going to work for the actor, whatever language, references are going to work. But the intention is, so again, we can openly and freely, but professionally, about all of our lovely detail. So that again, the whole of the journey through the intimate content can be precise and clear, professional, the actors can really embody the different qualities and then again, they can release into something nuanced, beautiful, detailed, hitting the beats of the scene, but free.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I love what you said about using all of those things as a reference for the for the detail of the scene, because I imagine that if you don't have that, and you don't have that shared vocabulary and understanding, what actors potentially would have drawn on previously was referencing their own personal experiences, which isn't necessarily what you want to be bringing to a scene because then again, it's like muddying those lines between the personal body and the professional body.
Ita O'Brien
Absolutely. And of course, we all you know, you know, just as we'll, you know, you know, brush our teeth in different ways and make a cup of tea in different ways, we all have our sexual expression in different ways and also how we express ourselves with our loved ones or you know, with with partners through our lives will be different with one person that with the other. Because as we write, we, you know, we respond, we discover something different to ourselves in each of our relationships. And that's the same with all of our characters, who is this character? And it's so lovely, actually, having the opportunity, you know what I'm saying to, or writers saying to me, oh, my goodness, yes. You know, I'm looking at the scene where they say, just say they make love, and I'm saying, so what do you want from that? You know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And thought about that, like, are some writers quite detailed in the script? Or is it often just like, and then they have sex.
Ita O'Brien
So for example, on Sex Education, Laurie's writing is so clear, you know, very, there's absolute the beats, right the way through and then that's absolutely, I'm going great as the intimacy coordinator I'm using, I'm charting that I break it down, I put into beats, I know that now remember, there's been, sometimes there's 16 beats, that we're honouring all the way through. And then I'm choreographing and making sure that details there and the director comes along goes, okay, we can lose that beat, that's the beat, you know, we said we'd, you know, so there's that detail. And Lori's writing and her vision of particularly comedy of, you know, one scene I'm thinking in particular, as, you know, comedy scene that can absolutely be honoured. And then yes, you know, talking to writers and saying, you know, tell me exactly what you want. And, oh, great, I now know that I can go away, and really dream into the detail of what that scene is about, and then writing it and knowing then that that can be honoured so that we can really, you know, serve the writers vision, then serve the director's vision, with all the idiosyncrasies of who each of those characters are, what it's showing us about both of those characters, and the development of those relationships. And that detail can be brought, you know, when it's written really clearly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so I've got a few questions from our listeners. One person has said, is there a difference between coordinating straight and queer intimacy scenes?
Ita O'Brien
Um, there's no difference in coordinating it, what you do have to bring is making sure that both myself if it's some aspects and the detail that I don't know, that's not part of my, you know, understanding in my life to make sure I research it, I research, you know, make sure that I speak to people from that community, you know, so, you know, so that I educate myself, so that what's been depicted, absolutely serves that community. And then, of course, as I was saying that the risk, you know, it might just be a kiss, but the vulnerability of that somebody doing that kiss can change. So the same thing, so then there's also in talking to those actors is, is the scenes have to be portrayed within that actor's personal knowledge. And again, if not, you know, they're, you know, so inviting everybody to do the research. So, so that's what's important, is that whatever the scene is, you're making sure that you really honour it. But then once all of that work has been done, you're making sure that the detail, the quality, the positions, the rhythms, the journey, emotional journey, into that scene is right. And then once you do that, then again, the actual process of agreement and consent and choreographing it is the same. But you're you're bringing in all of that detail, you've all the parts that you all again, honouring the writing, honouring what that storytelling is, honouring the director's vision of what that storytelling is, and putting all of that in place so that so that it's, it's authentic, and that, you know, my intention is always that for people from that community, we'll go yes, thank you. I feel seen.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess it kind of comes back again, to the like, if you're an actor, and the character you're portraying is from a different background to you, different sexual orientation to you, or different, like accents to you, like it's your job to do the research. And that's, that's part of like, learning about your character as well, I guess?
Ita O'Brien
Absolutely. It's exactly the same. All that due diligence, all of that in depth research, the intimate content, just the same as any any other part of the script.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Someone else's asked, how do you navigate wanting to achieve like truth and realism with the needs of film aesthetics? So I guess, is there ever any, like, disagreement with what the director wants versus what an intimacy coordinator might think is best for the scene?
Ita O'Brien
So the work is absolutely about serving the writing, serving the director's vision. So that's what I'm serving. And then within that, then checking in you know, then it's the process is always the director speaking to the actors first. Again, it's the director's vision that shared with the actors, and once that has happened, then I'll speak with the actors and checking out any concerns. So for example, if I can speak to the last episode of the first series of Sex Education, the director, then there's a scene with Adam and Eric, where they fight in the music room, through to that intimate moments staring at each other. Yeah. And then they spit on each other's faces and then to the kiss. Yeah. So the director, absolutely the marvellous and incredible Kate Heron, who did such an incredible job on the second half, the second block of Sex Education. She absolutely wanted to spit, the spit was very important part of that, of the journey through that scene. When I checked in with both actors, they were concerned, and so I said, okay, well, less, without awareness, let's just make sure that it's not your own spit, we'll make up a substance, but they tried it once -
Ita O'Brien
And they both came back and said, not do that again. So, so then, you know, we're creative people, and we have cameras and cameras do magic. So um, so the solution the end was the actor was on the floor, camera above as if it was the other person, piece of paper next to the spit lands on a piece of paper, and then the other way round, the makeup department then creating a lovely mixture that looks like spittle, dabbing on the actor, camera there, the actor responding as if they received the spit, no one was the wiser. So it's those kind of things. So So what's, and again, that's so important. You know, when I said to the actor what's, you know, what are you happy with? Most importantly, what's where's your no's?
Hannah Witton
Ah a work around.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess being like, empowered that, even if in your head, as an actor you're like, oh, it's not that big a deal. But actually being empowered to say, actually, I'm not comfortable with this.
Ita O'Brien
That's right. It's a hard thing
Hannah Witton
It is.
Ita O'Brien
The shift that we're inviting, we we're saying to the whole industry, we're inviting the no. We're inviting what's not okay, be it simulated sexual content, nudity, or touch, yeah. And, and so that, we can work around and be creative. So say, you have a kiss. And someone, you know, an actor is not comfortable to kiss on the lips, but it says they kiss. And I can really promise you, every single time that I've had a situation where it it's not being suitable for the actors to kiss but the script says a kiss, find other body parts to tell the same story, you know, like falling, you know, forehead to forehead, or taking your hand and pressing a hand to a cheek or, or coming up behind somebody and putting arm around them and putting their head on their shoulder. You know, the all of those different possible physicalities can tell the same physical storytelling and actually, because you're interrogating, what does that kiss about? What, what's the power play? Who's kissing whom? Yeah, you know, and then once you interrogate all of that, and then find the right physicality that's telling the same storytelling with different body parts, invariably, actually gets some that's way more exciting because it's out of the normal. So it's but but, but it is a quite a thing for, for an actor to trust that they, if they say no, that they won't be considered a troublemaker or a diva. And it's inviting us as as, as the creatives to go, you know, to work creatively with really embracing they're no, really working freely and openly with with everywhere that is in their agreement and consent. So, yes, so and it means that the actor can stay free and open and will be able to stay, giving a way better emotional storytelling of that scene, because they're not feeling compromised in any way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I really love what you're saying about the the no, and I guess that letting actors like really trust their, their instincts and what you said about being like potentially being afraid of like being seen as difficult to work with, because I imagined that would have been like a real fear of like, oh, if I don't do this, then like, this director or producer won't want to hire me again. And a lot and previously, potentially, those like intimate scenes being used as like leverage over you of just like, are you game? Like, are you you know, will you do this?
Ita O'Brien
That's right and particularly with nudity, actually. You know, this this before, you know, the saying, oh an actor should be brave enough to be able to do any sexual scene and any degree of nudity. And of course, you know, just like any other, you know, just like humanity, we all have our different journey in life, we all have our different relationships with our body with our physicality, nudity. Just because an actor might not be comfortable, you know, to be just completely naked, does not mean that they're not a brilliant actor, and perhaps indeed the best actor for this role. So again, it's, you know, and again, you know, really helping the actor to trust, to say, well actually I'm happy to have, to show naked back down to you know, small of my back, naked chest just down to top of breast, you know, and then, you know, and again, the more you know, the actor stays really being empowered and feeling really what they're comfortable with, we can work with camera angles, movie magic. This is it, we've got -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, movie magic
Ita O'Brien
All wardrobe departments are the experts, you know, the wardrobe department before the intimacy guidelines and the presence of an intimacy coordinator were present, were the people that one, were you know, supported the productions with that movie magic, which is all the genitalia patches and modesty garments. So those, you know, you have the influence of nakedness or nudity, you know, while the act of being as covered and as comfortable as possible. And then also invariably, it was a wardrobe that would have the ear of the actor who'd be going, oh, I'm really nervous, and you know, they really know so so I always really honour wardrobe departments, the wardrobe designers and wardrobe, ladies and men and gentlemen, and, and know that they are the experts.
Hannah Witton
They were they were filling a gap, they were stepping up.
Ita O'Brien
Absolutely. And all of those movie magic bits, you know, we can have flesh coloured g strings, flesh coloured shorts, nipple daisies, you know, breast covers, so that the director and the production can still get the influence of nudity that it wants to tell the storytelling, while really supporting the actors agreement and consent. Yeah, and then we can get on and you know -
Hannah Witton
And make some good TV or films.
Ita O'Brien
That's why, and the industry trusting that actually, we're not going to compromise what we want from the intimate content, you know, we're not going to compromise getting the best scenes possible, with the actors or, you know, agreements of what's really okay for them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
That we know that we know that actually, we can work creatively. Of course, with Normal People, which was such a joy to work with, you know, Lenny Abrahamson is just, well the whole, the whole crew, the whole production, everybody working at the top of their game. And, you know, there's some of the things that the actors, you know, there's an emphasis of complete nudity, but the actors always had flesh coloured shorts on and and yet, if you ask somebody what, you know, what scenes people were had the imprints of being completely naked with. And I bet you just wouldn't know, because we're working with, you know, clear, clear storytelling, but then really beautiful camera angles, that gives the influence of nudity, well, actually, you know, if you've got a lovely deep scene, up at someone's shoulder, you're seeing down the line of the back, you assume that there's complete nudity, but actually, the actor can, can stay being, you know, covered so that they're really comfortable. And, and that's what we're bringing, you know, helping the industry to understand. So that actors can trust, you know, saying, what's not okay for them, and the producers and the, and the directors, knowing that they can work creatively with camera angles to still get what they want.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And I guess that confidence in the actor of like, there is always going to be a creative workaround. So not not thinking, oh, but if I say no to this, then it means that it won't happen, because it will happen, but it'll just happen in a different way maybe.
Ita O'Brien
That's right. And that really, truly was the case in the past, you know, an actor would say I'm not prepared to do a scene and they'd lose a job from it, and I hope that that will now you know, begin to change.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
And that productions, and it's been so fantastic, you know, amazing productions, particularly these two recently with Normal People, and with I May Destroy You, and again, you know, it was an absolute joy and privilege to work, supporting Michaela Coel's writing, you know, on all the degrees of consent, you know, the eroding of someone's consent, in all the amazing facets that she has written throughout I May Destroy You, and supporting her as well in the performance of, of the intimate scenes. You know, as these productions come out, and the industry can see, you know, you know, not just that it's, you know, intimate content that the, the world knows has been done with best practice, but actually, they're really amazing, groundbreaking, intimate scenes, you know, like with I May Destroy You, I'm so proud in particular off the the scene where they're, where she's on her period
Hannah Witton
Yes. Oh, I love that scene. Yes. When they put the towel down, I was like, oh my god, this is so relatable, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone put a towel down in the sex scene before.
Ita O'Brien
Brilliant, this is it, absolutely. And yeah, and and the paraphernalia. I was, you know, saying that half of the population menstruate for roughly 40 years of their life and that's, you know, every month so that's something like on average, or roughly 480 weeks in their life, of half the population, we're dealing with our menstrual you know, paraphernalia, and yet it's not depicted or it's hardly depicted. You know, people going really, does this, is this what happens? I heard conversations of things asking if this is really what happens.
Hannah Witton
What did their makeup team use to create that blood clot? That was amazing.
Ita O'Brien
Wasn't it. Yeah, that was a prop department, and wasn't it just useful and again for us.
Hannah Witton
And the way he played with it. I was like, this is amazing.
Ita O'Brien
Just, and Marouane playing Biagio, just the most beautiful actor, and again, how that's written, just the beauty of that curiosity and acceptance. And yeah, it was so important, so important to be shown, and I'm so proud of, to have supported Michaela and the production in that scene. So yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that was a great, great scene. This question has come up a few times, actually, and I feel like it would be a good one to end on. How does one become an intimacy coordinator?
Ita O'Brien
So I'm really glad you asked that question. It's actually, you know, while the the guidelines themselves are quite simple, putting in place open communication, and then agreement and consent, as I said, of touch, simulated sex and nudity, and then choreographing the intimate content clearly, there's actually quite a complex, what you're holding is quite complex around production. So we need practitioners to be aware of on screen sexuality and intimate storytelling, which means them really having an in depth knowledge of the actors process, the actor director, relationship, the directors process. There needs to be, to facilitate open communication, that's across the board. And of course, each different role within a production, is going to need a different language, you know, taking care of the concerns be it the producer, the director, wardrobe, the DOP, the first AD, then an understanding of power dynamics, navigating those power dynamics, really good language with unconscious bias, equality, diversity, conflict resolution, and then really important, the need to have a body knowledge. So sort of a knowledge, an in depth knowledge of anatomy. So you can be clear and detailed. In depth knowledge of movement, of different movement systems, as you know, was sharing with you earlier love and five rhythms, animal work. And you can have really the skills of really clear choreography. Yes. And then, you know, and then that understanding and taking care, regarding body language of the actors agreement and supporting agreement and consent. So there's a lot that goes into it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
So on average, I'd say, it takes from beginning to being fully accredited, takes around two years. So my, my main intimacy coordinator only just now credited, particularly last year, we had such a body of work. So yes.
Hannah Witton
So do you offer courses?
Ita O'Brien
I do.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay. Nice. Yeah.
Ita O'Brien
I do. And there's quite a rigorous selection process. So I invite anybody interested to just come and do an initial works, obviously you can experience the basis of the work, and then if you're interested from that, in applying, and then there's a really rigorous interview and selection process, to really bespoke practitioners who have all these criteria that I'm talking about, to be able to come and learn. And then equally, also, continuous assessment throughout the training so that, you know, you can have someone who's really passionate and really believed in the work, but actually, possibly say their own personal vulnerabilities might mean that they're actually they're not the suitable person to do perhaps be on set, you know, so inviting that or someone who's an actor, you know, and actually, you know, the role into the coordinator isn't quite right for them, when I would say, Okay, you've, you've got all of this training, and now take this back into your profession. So it's, so it's so yes, it's a robust training with continuous professional development, continuous assessment, and then those that are suitable to be put on placement so they get, start to get experience, and then build up hours through to them being eligible to come for full accreditation. So like I said, it takes about two years altogether.
Hannah Witton
But nice and succinct. I feel like some some some careers of people that I interview, it's just like, there are so many different ways that you can do this and there's no like, clear accreditation, and it can be quite confusing, but that's nice and like, okay, this is how you would do that, if you wanted to.
Ita O'Brien
That's what I'm working on at the moment. It's, you know, actually, during this time of the COVID, you know, lockdown, it's giving me the opportunity to, to work with my core practitioners and really writing out, I knew exactly what was wanted, but then to be able to write it down. So it's been really important to be able to to then write out the robust pathway through. So yes, so my intention is that we keep the role of the intimacy coordinator as a young profession, and growing, that the people who are accredited intimacy coordinators in the profession, can you know, that across the board to be robust, to be able to hold the space in the best possible way so that the role the intimacy coordinator is really trusted in the profession.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like you said, because it's so new. Thank you so much. This has been really enlightening and just an absolute pleasure to talk with you. Where can people find out more about you and your work?
Ita O'Brien
Yes, if you go to the Intimacy On Set website, and if you want to get in contact, please go to the contact page. I have someone working with me, so if you want to be put on the mailing list or you're interested in workshops, please let us know. And, yeah, please do contact us, and we'll get back to you, we'd be delighted. And also, the intimacy on set guidelines are there and they're there for anybody to take. And if you're going to be working in production, you know, have a read of them, you know, print them out. And then we'll be starting at workshops, physical workshops, again, as soon as you know, the government guidelines so that we can get physically in a space together. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Well, thank you so much again, and thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for listening to Doing It. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk and do go follow us on social media and I'll catch you in the next episode. Bye.
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