Gay Teens in YA Books with Calum McSwiggan | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: discussion of rape.
Hannah Witton
Otis, in Sex Education, I have a huge crush on.
Calum McSwiggan
Do you? I really don't.
Hannah Witton
I'm pretty sure the actor is over 18, so it's fine.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies.
Hannah Witton
Hello, welcome back to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton. Thank you so, so much for the response to the first episode. It's been so overwhelming, I'm so glad that you liked it, and that you're as excited as me about this podcast. I cannot wait to share all of these episodes with you. So today is a bonus episode already, because it's a Friday, and I know I said the episodes would come out every hump day, every Wednesday, but I just thought for launch week, let's have two episodes. Why not? So this is going to be a bit different because this is not an interview, this is a book chat.
Hannah Witton
In this episode, I am joined by my dear dear friend, Calum McSwiggan, who is an LGBTQ+ sex educator, writer, and radio host. We talk about the book Jack of Hearts (& Other Parts), and we discuss LGBT representation, and the presence of sex, I know, oh my God, sex in YA books. If you liked Sex Education on Netflix, you will like this book. And you'll also like this episode because we talk about that show a lot in this episode too. Warning there are spoilers ahead, but if you enjoy this kind of book discussion episode, then do let us know on Twitter or Instagram, @DoingItPodcast, and we can talk about books some more. And I hope you like this episode.
Hannah Witton
So Jack of Hearts, L.C Rosen, and you just told me that -
Calum McSwiggan
Lev.
Hannah Witton
The author's name is Lev.
Calum McSwiggan
I don't know what the C stands for.
Hannah Witton
Oh, mysterious. Did you read the physical copy?
Calum McSwiggan
I read the physical copy as well. And I never can get into books. Like I genuinely really struggle. I'm one of those people, I really struggled to get into books, but literally as soon as I picked this up, I literally tore through it in a few days, which so unusual for me. It usually takes me like two months to read a book.
Hannah Witton
Damn.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That's interesting.
Calum McSwiggan
But it's full sex though.
Hannah Witton
It really is full of sex. I think I read this pretty quick, any YA book I find like quite easy to read.
Calum McSwiggan
Yes.
Hannah Witton
Which is like good, especially like when you're in a bit of a reading slump. So general general premise of Jack of Hearts (& Other parts) is Jack is a gay kid in school and he starts getting these love notes in his lockers, but they become creepy, very quickly. So they're not love notes. They're definitely like -
Calum McSwiggan
Creepy, stalker notes.
Hannah Witton
Creepy, stalky, harassment notes. And so it's like him and his best friends, Jenna and Ben, who all have their own other shit going on. But the main plot is like them trying to figure out who these notes are coming from. At the same time, Jack is writing a sex advice column for Jenna's website, called Jack of Hearts.
Calum McSwiggan
And the school newspaper, right? It ends up in the school newspaper.
Hannah Witton
No, so Jena got fired from the school newspaper for doing real journalism.
Calum McSwiggan
Oh yeah.
Hannah Witton
They were like, we can't be having our school newspaper calling out the shit that the school is doing. So then she started her own, like website, blog, thing, and Jack's sex advice column is on that. Oh, and it's set in New York City, and they're like 16/17 years old. So there in like high school years. And it's very funny.
Calum McSwiggan
When you were reading it, did you kind of visualise the characters as being a bit older? Like I couldn't, I was like, really? I think some of them are quite mature. I mean this in a good way. Some of them are quite mature, and I found myself like really relating to them, and feeling like they were my peers, rather than kids who are literally like, 12 years younger than me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, because I was trying to remember what I was like, at that age in like, sixth form. And I was like, I was nowhere near that mature. Me and my friends were absolutely not talking about sex in that way, or even having sex that much. Like maybe if you were in a relationship, you'd you'd probably be having a fair bit of sex. But like how much really, because you live - both of you live with your parents, like I don't know. Because then also I think about some of the 16/17 year olds who follow me online, and there's definitely like a broad range, but they're super smart. And I actually can see them talking in this way.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So maybe it's just a, you know, like, the kind of sex education that is available on the internet, like the good stuff, wasn't available when we were 16/17.
Calum McSwiggan
That's true. So do you think there's more sex happening as well?
Hannah Witton
Well.
Calum McSwiggan
So you think younger people are having sex more now, because there's more information available?
Hannah Witton
So the statistics say no, actually, young people are having less sex. I did, I was interviewed for this article in The Times about it. And it's like the calling it the sex recession, and millennials are having less sex. And it's a whole host of reasons, but a lot of it is like financially, millennials are living at home longer, and also we're staying single longer, and statistically, people in relationships are more likely to be having more sex.
Calum McSwiggan
Well, yeah, that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
But that's a whole other thing. Go read the article on The Times if you're interested. But I don't know maybe. But it's also about millennials, and these guys are like Gen Z -
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, they're younger than millennials. I just, when I was reading it, I couldn't help but feel like and again, I don't know if this is because kids are more enlightened now. But I just when I was reading, like Jack's advice, I couldn't help but think oh my god, he is so knowledgeable.
Hannah Witton
He's so woke, I'm like, how?
Calum McSwiggan
He's so woke. And he'd be saying things and I'd be like, even I was like, wait, is it really like, I was learning from this 17 year old boy.
Hannah Witton
Like, they'd be, so the format of some of the chapters is that the question, so the person seeking the advice, their question comes in first. And then the start of the next chapter will be Jack's response. And I remember reading one of the questions and in my head, scoffing and being like, obviously, this.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And then Jack's advice was like, so much kinder, so much more thought out, he'd really like considered like, all of the different angles, and I'd just gone, ugh. I can't remember which specific one it was, and I was like, oh god, Hannah, you need to be a better sex educator.
Calum McSwiggan
It wasn't the question which like really sexualizes him as a person, was it? And he comes back with quite a snappy response to that.
Hannah Witton
The one from the straight girls?
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
No, it wasn't that one because I, that one I was like you you're kind of on your on his side for that because you know 0
Calum McSwiggan
The context and background.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, the context of why this girls asked that question. It was just - it was just another general one. Oh, wait, no, I think I'm literally just open the page and I'm like, I think it was this one's. So, dear Jack of Hearts. I think my boyfriend just broke up with me because he didn't like the blowjob I gave him. And in my head, I'm like, like, screw him. He's a dick. He's a terrible person, like you just it doesn't matter. Like, move on, move on. That's what I had in my head.
Calum McSwiggan
And what was Jack's response?
Hannah Witton
Jack's response is like, well, maybe it was his first ever blowjob, and like, he was really nervous and like, and like, and so like, couldn't keep an erection because, you know, because he was nervous about the situation too. And I was like, you're so much better than me, Jack.
Calum McSwiggan
And I think it really genuinely is important to like, consider, like, the man's feelings sometimes in situations like that. Because I think I mean, just -
Hannah Witton
I think because we jump to conclusions not to, because we're like but men must be up for sex all of the time.
Calum McSwiggan
I love the range of kind of questions that are sent in, and answered. Like, he covers so many different topics about like sex, and vulnerability, and insecurities. And like, I think asexuality is covered.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, asexuality was covered
Calum McSwiggan
And just so many different things, which is so important. And I think that's the brilliant thing about the book, is that it genuinely is teaching you sex education.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Calum McSwiggan
But because you're wrapped up in this storyline, figuring out who this stalker sending these creepy love notes is, you almost don't realise that you are being educated.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's so good. And we were talking before about the parallels between that style and Netflix's Sex Education, which is so good.
Calum McSwiggan
It's so good.
Hannah Witton
If you haven't watched it, watch it. It's so so so good, because that also does a great job of like having plots, and having characters that you care about. But then it's also like this 16 year old boy giving sex advice to his peers, and the advice is really good advice. Like it's a solid advice, because his mum's a sex therapist, and so he's like, absorbed a lot of knowledge from her. And yeah, and so you just like inadvertedly getting a sex ed class, but I don't know, it's not like it's shoving it down your throat because it's so well woven into the plot, which is what I think Jack of Hearts and Sex Education do really well.
Calum McSwiggan
I think it's interesting that, in a lot of ways, they're so similar. And it's like, is it almost like, zeitgeisty now, to -
Hannah Witton
They're also really different, cuz in this book, the guy giving the sex advice is like probably the most experienced of his peers.
Calum McSwiggan
Oh, true.
Hannah Witton
And then in Sex Education, Otis is the least experienced.
Calum McSwiggan
But he knows his shit.
Hannah Witton
He knows his shit. He really knows his shit.
Calum McSwiggan
I mean, I wish I wish I had Jack of Hearts or Sex Education when I was like 16/17 years old.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, imagine if we had Sex Education instead of Skins. Like Skins was great, but I feel like I would have learned so much more about myself, faster.
Calum McSwiggan
Same.
Hannah Witton
Like, I do know what I needed, I needed the advice that Otis gave Amy. The one where he was just like, well, you should just masturbate, it's not, you know, it's fine. And then that scene where she's just like -
Calum McSwiggan
Doing it in every position possible. Hero.
Hannah Witton
I'm just like, I needed Otis. But Jack of Hearts, um, we probably are gonna spoil this at some point like -
Calum McSwiggan
I think we already have.
Hannah Witton
No no we've not spoiled who Pinky is. So they codenamed Pinky, the person who's sending all these creepy horrific letters to Jack. So spoilers. We're going to talk about who that is. Did you guess? This is the thing, did you predict it? I'm so proud of myself because I got it.
Calum McSwiggan
No, I didn't. I didn't get who exactly it was, but I did twig that I thought it was a female.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
I did twig that, because I think it was so, it really leads you down this path of oh, Jack's a gay person, and therefore this person who has this obsession with him, and kind of fetishize him, must be a gay man as well. And I think I did figure out that it must be a female, but I didn't, for some reason, I didn't think it would turn out to be the person it was.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I know. I got I like I twigged it was female, and then as soon as I twigged that, I just started piecing everything together, and it was like, oh, it could only be her.
Calum McSwiggan
I think controversially, I actually didn't like the reveal of who it was. I loved the book, absolutely adore it.
Hannah Witton
Which part of the reveal. Like just when Jack figured it out, or their like confrontation.
Calum McSwiggan
Their confrontation about it. I think it was the only part of the book that I didn't love. I mean, it was still alright.
Hannah Witton
It felt very, you know, like, in good, good guy, bad guy films, when the evil character like, reveals that plot and -
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, yeah,
Hannah Witton
- and explains their whole plan, and your're like, great, now we know your plan.
Calum McSwiggan
I think I didn't believe it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
It kind of felt like oh, this, this is who it is, and I was like, nope, like, I won't allow it. I want I think I wanted it to be someone else. I wanted it to be a little bit cleverer, I guess.
Hannah Witton
It's tricky because, I don't know how realistic I found the notes in the first place. Like, I understand that some people are completely delusional, so these creepy notes were quite black mailee and yeah, obsessive, and controlling of Jack in the end, like really like messing with his mental health. And it was all done out of what this girl thought was love, and like she just had a crush, and that was her way of like getting what she wanted. But I understand that some people have really delusional ideas of love and what it means to love someone and care for someone, you know, abusive relationships and things like that. And so I understand that that exists, but these letters were like, so malicious. I was like, this can't be someone who has a really fucked up crush. I genuninely thought it was someone who like hated him, or was fucking with him, I don't know if -
Calum McSwiggan
It was like there was - there was like, real extra level of psychological depth.
Hannah Witton
Like every time a note came up in the book, my heart was racing, like I actually felt physically disgusted reading those notes because I was I was actually like really scared for Jack.
Calum McSwiggan
And it's not just notes as well, you know, like his his coat gets cut up, and the pink scissors, it was all very like serial killer-esque.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Calum McSwiggan
Which was great because it kept me hooked.
Hannah Witton
It dis keep me hooked, but it also kept me very scared, and I did not know where it was going to go. And like I thought, I thought I was reading a thriller.
Calum McSwiggan
And watching him through his window, I think. I, at one point, I thought it was the principal and then I realised that didn't make any sense. But he would have been a good, it would have been good if it was the principal.
Hannah Witton
That would have been like some kind of Scooby Doo style plot twist.
Calum McSwiggan
Would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, but the reveal of it being Caitlyn. Caitlyn was like part of this group of girls. Her, Emily, and Ava, and Jack overhears them in the bathroom a lot, gossiping about him and his supposedly like sex life, and his conquests, and stuff. I think it's interesting that it did turn out to be one of the girls because there's lots of themes throughout the book of like, the different forms that homophobia can take, and it's not just like, you know, your classic like calling someone an F word, or like or whatever. It's like oh actually like straight girls fetishizing gay guys, or like other gay guys policing the type of gay that you can be or can't be. Which -
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, I think I feel like it definitely kind of brings, you know, because we've we've seen the whole homophobic storyline where there's a homophobic bully bullying a kid etc which is - which is -
Hannah Witton
And turns out, you were gay!
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, that too. You know that, and it's been done to death, but also I do think we are starting to progress a little bit more with society. I think, you know, homophobic bullying does still happen in schools, and you still do get you know, kids being beaten up, and the F word being thrown around and things, but I do think it also takes different forms
Hannah Witton
More subtle forms that are not as recognisable I think. Because we would recognise though, you know, the classic, the classic, the old school homophobic bullying, but we wouldn't recognise other aspects of it.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, and I think sometimes it's like, it can almost be like borderline bullying when it's not intended to be. Like this the whole trope of like, oh, you're my gay best friend, take me shopping. And I think Jack of Hearts really takes that and like amplifies it and makes it into something so much bigger because you've got these girls who are like, oh, we adore Jack, but he's such a slut, and they're so judgmental, and they want him to be like this perfect, polished, gay toy that they can play with -
Hannah Witton
And gossip about.
Calum McSwiggan
- rather than just being a gay guy, figuring it out, having sex.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and then there's another character, Jeremy, who's another gay kid in school who's one of Jack's exes who. Is he the president or like or the leader of the Gay Straight Alliance in their school?
Calum McSwiggan
I think he started it with Jack, didn't they, and then they seperated off -
Hannah Witton
Oh, I don't know. I think it already existed, and they like met at the GSA.
Calum McSwiggan
Oh yeah, that might be it.
Hannah Witton
But Jeremy is like -
Calum McSwiggan
He fits that model of the like perfect gay that people expect.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, maybe it's respectability politics.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And Jeremy definitely like projects that onto Jack as well, of like you the way that you behave, and the way that you dress, means that straight people won't take us seriously. Because he, you know, Jeremy isn't camp, Jeremy doesn't wear makeup, whereas Jack does.
Calum McSwiggan
Jack does all of those things.
Hannah Witton
And it's still another form of homophobia, because it's just like you're a wrong kind of gay, or like it's like things that are super associated with homosexuality. It's like, no we need to dial that back in because those those are the things that, you know, we get bullied for and -
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, yeah and that's a genuine thing within the LGBT+ community, a lot of people are like that.
Hannah Witton
Right, like I'm glad that was represented in there because I think that like -
Calum McSwiggan
But also Jeremy isn't, I don't think Jeremy is a bad character.
Hannah Witton
No.
Calum McSwiggan
You're not supposed to hate him, he's just he's just flawed and it's almost, he's almost like, he's almost like satire the way he's so completely unaware of the almost the damage he's doing to another fellow gay person by trying to oppress him. And I think you even see moments of Jeremy oppressing his own individuality.
Hannah Witton
He comes round like towards the end though, definitely, be who you want to be.
Calum McSwiggan
I fancy -
Hannah Witton
There is points where you think Jeremy might be Pinky. I never believed it. I never thought that.
Calum McSwiggan
No, I didn't believe it. I fancy Jeremy's character a bit. I imagined him to be a lot older obviously, because he's a teenager, but like in my imagination he was you know, he was a little bit older and I quite liked his character, I thought it was very real, I thought that he was a very three dimensional, four dimensional, what do we say? How many dimensions?
Hannah Witton
Three, I think.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, so he had all the dimensions he supposed to have, a very good character, very well rounded character.
Hannah Witton
I like pictured him as being quite preppy.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
See him as being like quite clean shaven. Yeah, preppy, tall, brunette, that's what I was picturing.
Calum McSwiggan
Is he not blonde?
Hannah Witton
Maybe he is, I don't know. In my head he was brunette.
Calum McSwiggan
Maybe it doesn't specify.
Hannah Witton
What is Jack's? I know Jack's basically a twink, but I'm not, I can't remember what colour hair he has.
Calum McSwiggan
Basically a twink.
Hannah Witton
I'm pretty sure he describes, does he describe himself as a twink?
Calum McSwiggan
Or the other characters do, if he doesn't.
Hannah Witton
He's very skinny.
Calum McSwiggan
I think he has twink on his Grindr profile, maybe.
Hannah Witton
Oh , does he.
Calum McSwiggan
He has, I think he has like brown or black hair. Yeah, because there is a, on some of the book covers there's a picture of him.
Hannah Witton
Ah.
Calum McSwiggan
And he looks exactly kind of how I imagined him to look.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
So yeah, very good.
Hannah Witton
The thing that I found really cool and exciting about this book was that it wasn't just like, oh the main character's gay and then that's it. It was like no, you had Jeremy who is a very, you know, his own person. And then Jack's best friend, Ben, is also a gay guy who is so different to Jack. You know, he's, you know, waiting for the right person to like, have his first kiss, which is so adorable. And then there's also this bisexual guy in the school. And I'm just like, everyone, I'm like, how many kids are at the school? Everyone's coming out, left, right, and centre. And like, I just remember being in school and like, no one was out. But this was, like 10 years ago. So like, yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
But that's real. I think sometimes with stories that have a lot of LGBT+ characters. There's often, I've heard it before where people said this is completely unrealistic, there wouldn't be this many gay people, there wouldn't be this many lesbians and trans people. And actually, yes, yes, there would. It's just that, you know, when we were in school, I thought I was the only gay kid in my school. There was a there was one gay kid in two years above me who was out, and I thought it was me and him and that was it. Later down the line, I would learn that like 20 other kids were gay.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, every time you get on the bus, there's LGBT people surrounding you, you just don't realise.
Hannah Witton
And yeah, I think that's really cool. Because, like, when, we were probably at school with similar time. When I was at school, I don't, there was like, one trans girl who was like, two years below me, but I didn't know what that meant. I like I had no, I just, because because you'd like, heard rumours, and it was just like, oh, yeah, she's a girl, but like, she used to be a boy. That was like, all I understood. And I was like, okay, but I never interacted with her because she was like, two years below me.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, sure.
Hannah Witton
And then, there was like, this weird time in year 10, where every other person was saying they were bisexual.
Calum McSwiggan
I remember that.
Hannah Witton
But like, maybe, maybe some of them were but like, I don't know, it was very strange. And then and that was it. But everything negative was gay. So homework was gay, exams were gay, wearing our blazers was gay, like everything.
Calum McSwiggan
I found that, so some people still say that, and I find it so dated when I hear it.
Hannah Witton
I'm just like, what are you? 2005?
Calum McSwiggan
I'm more offended that they're like speaking for, like, 10 years ago, than -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's weird, but I do love, I'm just like, I read books like this, and I'm like, is this what school is like now? I hope so.
Calum McSwiggan
I hope so. Do you think it is?
Hannah Witton
I don't know, tell us.
Calum McSwiggan
Tell us, tell us children.
Hannah Witton
So one of the things that we wanted to talk about was the comparisons with Jack of Hearts and Simon vs the Homo Sapien’s Agenda, which is the book that Love, Simon is based on. Because when I was sent a proof copy of Jack of Hearts it said on it like. if you loved Simon, then you'll also love Jack.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
So, and they're both published by Penguin. So they're obviously being marketed towards the same readers.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, and I almost feel like that Jack and Simon, it's almost like they live in the same universe you know, because the books came out similar times, like two years apart. Yeah, it feels like they're very much in the same kind of universe, but they address very different issues, and they you know, these schools could exist at the same time, but they operate very differently.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because Simon's story is like kind of his coming out story, and Blue's coming out story, whereas like Jack is already out, so it's not it's it's kind of like afterwards, maybe, a little bit, I don't know.
Calum McSwiggan
And they both feature a blog being problematic.
Hannah Witton
The do both feature blogs, and like the internet, and secret messages
Calum McSwiggan
Yes, there's a lot of -
Hannah Witton
But in Simon, it's like positive, good, secret messages.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
We're like we're rooting for Blue, we're not - Blue and Pinky, oh my God, it's all to do with colours.
Calum McSwiggan
Oh, shit, that just blew my mind a little bit.
Hannah Witton
Blue your mind.
Calum McSwiggan
Such a dad joke.
Hannah Witton
So Jack of Hearts and Simon are both YA, however the sex in Jack of Hearts is -I don't think there's any sex in Love, Simon.
Calum McSwiggan
There is, it's not in the movie.
Hannah Witton
I read the book, where were they?
Calum McSwiggan
So there are quite a few like sexually charged messages between Simon and Blue, where they're talking about like dicks being shaped like cucumbers, or something like yeah, and then at the end -
Hannah Witton
They were hot.
Calum McSwiggan
They do have sex at the end, and it does talk about it. It's not like oh and then like Simon put his dick in Blue's mouth, like that would ruin the, you know -
Hannah Witton
The tone of the whole book.
Calum McSwiggan
The tone of the whole book, but they, it is referenced, and it is talked about.
Hannah Witton
Okay. And then in Jack of Hearts.
Calum McSwiggan
It's just dicks, dicks, dicks.
Hannah Witton
It literally just starts with like, so the prologue is like the girls talking and then there's like one of the, I don't know -
Calum McSwiggan
I feel like you could open a page randomly, read a sentence, and it would probably -
Hannah Witton
I just remember like one of the questions being, and then Jack's answer being like, here we go; my first time getting it in the butt was kind of weird. That's like the first jJack of Hearts like agony aunt response, and it's fair, and like Jack has a lot of casual partners during the course of the book as well, and you you get like descriptions of like some of that. But then also you get, in his stories, him describing past sex events for the purpose of education.
Calum McSwiggan
And they're described in, I think, a good amount of detail as well and it's not just like it's - it's you don't read it like it's porn, because I think it also touches on the negative sides. Well not negative sides, but the reality.
Hannah Witton
Just like the messy.
Calum McSwiggan
Like talking about like peeling off the condom, tying it, and throwing it in the bin, and things like that. And I think that is very real, and I think it does well to show the reality of sex, rather than making it just seemed like the super hot porn style sex.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, this is also I think the first time that I've read like, more graphic, queer sex in YA, because there's like some YA books that I've read, and the more raunchy ones there's been like, there's finally like, sex in YA in general, but most of it has been like between two straight people.
Calum McSwiggan
I actually can't think of any other YA that includes graphic sex scenes between gay people, or LGBT+ people
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I'm trying to think. I've read like, I've read a fair amount of YA books that include rape. So that, sometimes it graphically describes it, other times it kind of like is alluded to, or it happened previously, or so that is in like, very intense and graphic for like its own separate reasons. And then other times there's been like consensual sex acts between like, a straight guy and girl. And I don't know, I'm trying to think like, it's not hugely graphic, it just kind of like is what it is. Sometimes it's hot, but then you also like, these people, these characters are 16 so -
Calum McSwiggan
But you just imagine them as older.
Hannah Witton
You imagine them a bit older, yeah. But however, Otis in Sex Education, I have a huge crush on.
Calum McSwiggan
Do you?
Hannah Witton
Yes, yes.
Calum McSwiggan
I really don't. I have a - I have a crush on Jackson.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
He's a hottie.
Hannah Witton
He's also good. Oh, I actually I feel a bit bad for him, he's so sweet. But Otis is like, I love him. I'm pretty sure the actor is over 18 so it's fine.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's fine, it's fine
Calum McSwiggan
It's all good.
Hannah Witton
Um, yeah, I'm all here for graphic sex in YA, is basically what I'm saying.
Calum McSwiggan
No, I love it, I think it's brilliant. I think it will, I think it will genuinely help people, genuinely.
Hannah Witton
And I think like, where else do young people get depictions of sex? It's like, okay, pornography, and like Hollywood movies, and TV, and stuff. And I think we're actually now getting to a place where those, like, depictions in TV are getting a bit better. Like in Sex Education, the actual, like, sex that you see is like, rough and tumble.
Calum McSwiggan
Clumsy and awkward.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, awkward, like people are getting hurt. Like, it's really quite funny. But then like in books, I think books are like, actually, the place that I see the most realistic depictions of sex.
Calum McSwiggan
I think it I think, andJack of Hearts there's some really, I think there's some instances of sex not going right, as well, if I remember right.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Well, when he describes his first time having anal sex.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
You, as the reader, and also like, his friends who then read it, are like, are you sure that was consensual? And it's -
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, I completely forgot about this. It's really, it's almost uncomfortable to read, and it's the way he's speaking about it so like, he's fine with that.
Hannah Witton
He's like, and this happened, and this happened, ha ha ha.
Calum McSwiggan
And you're like, oh, gosh.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's weird. I find like things like that cropping up more and more, the better understandings we have of consent and sexual assault and things. Because you may have had, like, past sexual experiences that at the time, you just put in the bad sex box, you're like, that was just bad sex, that made me feel weird and uncomfortable. I'm not sure why, I think it was just bad sex. And then maybe years later, you start learning more about consent and thinga, nd you're liake, hang on a second, I didn't consent, I was saying no, and then and then they continued, but I just, I just didn't say anything else, because I felt awkward, or I didn't want to, like, ruin the, I didn't want him to hate me or like, or whatever. And then you like, start to like, understand, and it's like, at that point then, it's kind of up to you how you want to react to that. Do you want to keep that in the bad sex box, and just be like, cool, we're done? Or are you suddenly gonna have to, like reframe that whole experience with new language, and new understanding? I don't know.
Calum McSwiggan
So maybe it's a positive thing, the way that Jack is actually talking about this past experience -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
- in a way that he's he's comfortable with it, and he's okay with it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think I would have liked it better if he had acknowledged more that it was potentially quite a problematic experience, because his friends read it and we're like, Jack, are you okay, like, we had no idea that that happened. And he was like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. And I kind of would have liked him to have a bit of a like, oh, yeah, maybe that's not okay.
Calum McSwiggan
Well, maybe that's more realistic, that Jack, you know, Jack has all the answers to so many things. And maybe it's important that there are a few moments where he doesn't, it's actually his friends, and us as readers who are going, wait, whoa Jack. You know, he doesn't unpack it that way.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Calum McSwiggan
I think another interesting thing about Jack's character is in some ways, he's very real in the way that a lot of young gay people, growing up, are often finding themselves placed in very adult situations, in ways that heterosexual people might not be. So that might be like a kid growing up gay and, you know, wanting their first experience with another man, but maybe there's no other boys in their school that they can get with. So next minute, they're at a cruising spot in a, in a public bathroom, getting with a much older man, and that's their first experience of sex. And that is actually something that happens quite a lot, and quite, it happens a lot.
Hannah Witton
Because they don't see any of their peers who are out.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, so you're kind of forced into these adult situations, which I think maybe does mature gay people when it comes to sex. It's interesting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that is interesting. Because the one of the other things that like, is sad that happens to Jack is some of the threats from Pinky. The blackmailer is like, send me nudes, and all of Jack's friends and you as the reader is going, no, don't do it Jack! And in the end he does sends them, and that's kind of like very much like the lowest point in the book, and for Jack.
Calum McSwiggan
It's - it's really sad how you see him do it, and he almost feels like very detached from what he's actually doing. And in some ways, that's good, because it's - it's protecting him emotionally from what's actually happening. But at the same time, it's it's heartbreaking to see that this person is literally -
Hannah Witton
Can't think of any other way out of it. Oh, and also, like, I think this is just my general annoyance at like, this kind of storytelling, which is like, you get a character, and your in first person you're like, in their head. So the author is trying to basically convince you that the things that, the things that are character thinking make logical sense for them, to then take whatever course of action. And a really good author, you'll be like, yeah, that makes total sense, because you're in their head, even if like you wouldn't do that, you like totally believe why that character would do that. But I didn't 100% get that all of the time with Jack, because he would keep up keep on coming up with excuses. Like it got to a point where he stopped telling his friends about Pinky's letters, and he wouldn't mention it to his mum at all. And I did not understand that.
Calum McSwiggan
I didn't understand that either.
Hannah Witton
Okay, I was not sure if it was because I was straight, and there was like another element of like him being gay, and that being like, why it would make it more complicated to tell people.
Calum McSwiggan
Well, he was saying that he didn't want to tell his mum because he didn't want to burden his mum with it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and I'm just like, no, that's the whole point of having a mother.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, but then you know, when you're growing up a teenager, you do have all these different thoughts and like yeah.
Hannah Witton
Maybe that maybe that wasn't me, that was me maybe not being able to relate to a teenager anymore. Maybe that's what that was.
Calum McSwiggan
Not because you're a straight woman.
Hannah Witton
It's because I'm old. But yeah, that really frustrated me because I'm like, no, Jack, just tell someone. Like why are you bottling all of this up?
Calum McSwiggan
But I think we are supposed to feel that frustration, you know, like, it's like -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because it's like when he does send those nudes, that's when he's really in like the darkest point because he's not telling his friends about the continuation of the letters. He knows that the, you know, there's been some threats made against his mum as well, and he's like, he's not telling her to protect her like, and it's like that is a lot to shoulder as a 17 year old.
Calum McSwiggan
17 year old boy. Yeah, like -
Hannah Witton
Poor kid.
Calum McSwiggan
Poor Jack.
Hannah Witton
Poor Jack. But it all had happy ending, because we figured out who Pinkie was, and I'm guessing she deleted the photos.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, she must have done, she got like expelled. Yeah, yeah, fuck you, Pinky.
Hannah Witton
Fuck you Pinky. But not fuck you Blue, you're great.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, Blue's lovely.
Hannah Witton
Did we want to talk about Jack's mum? Just because I felt found that relationship kind of like interesting. I always find like the adults that get portrayed in YA, like, like this -
Calum McSwiggan
They're all so quirky and cool.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, there's some really really, well the art teacher is like -
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Because she's like Jack's champion, and then the head teacher is just despicable. Like he's just like, I'm like, you don't like kids, do you? Like you don't like young people.
Calum McSwiggan
And he's equally complicit in the bullying of Jack, he slut shames him himself.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, horrendous. I think he should be fired. But I don't know who who would do that. What authority I have as a reader to fire that head teacher. But with his mum, his mum's like this kind of like absent mum because she's got this very demanding job, and she's a single mother, and I think that's another reason why Jack maybe seems a lot more mature is because he you know, he's like hanging out by himself at home. He cooks for himself most of the time.
Calum McSwiggan
It's true.
Hannah Witton
He doesn't have any brothers or sisters. So.
Calum McSwiggan
And his mum also treats him quite adult, and they have very, an open relationship where they're very happy to talk about certain things, and yeah, there are moments where Jack is like, no, I don't want to talk about that with you. But the mum is very open.
Hannah Witton
The mum's like, I support you doing your sex advice column, but I won't read it.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, that's the perfect mum, right there.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Whereas my family, like my grandma is like, I support you doing this, and I will read it all, and watch all of your videos, and then tell you what I think of them. I'm like, no Gran, no.
Calum McSwiggan
My mum followed me on Tumblr once and I was like, nope, one step too far. That's where I literally like videos of men rimming each other.
Hannah Witton
Well, not anymore.
Calum McSwiggan
Not anymore. It's all been removed.
Hannah Witton
It's all gone.
Calum McSwiggan
Mum can follow me now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. What did you think of Jack's coming out moment to his mum, because it obviously it didn't happen in the book. He kind of references when it happened, and it felt like a bit, it was like a, eh?
Calum McSwiggan
Well, yeah, I think sometimes you need - there's, if somebody comes out to you, people think it's a helpful thing to say like, oh, I knew. That is not a helpful thing to say because that person -
Hannah Witton
Even if you did know.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, even if you did know because that person has, that is so, that's such a long time coming. That's, you know, so much burden for them to let off the shoulders.
Hannah Witton
So even if you're totally cool with it, and it's not a big deal, you still have to acknowledge that it was a big deal for them.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah. And I think like, you should be like letting off a firework. Like, oh my god, like, thank you so much for telling me this.
Hannah Witton
Congratulations.
Calum McSwiggan
Congratulations. And then like, gauge them, like I think just going, ah, cool -
Hannah Witton
Yeah, well, I can't remember what exactly her reaction was in the book.
Calum McSwiggan
I think it was just kind of like, oh, that's great. I don't know if he said she knew -
Hannah Witton
No, she didn't say that. But I think it was like, okay, lovely.
Calum McSwiggan
Lovely. Let's get on with it.
Hannah Witton
But you can tell that she like has no qualms of having a gay son. She's just like, whatever, chill. But yeah, maybe I think he wanted a bit more of an acknowledgement of it maybe being more of a big deal than she let on. But she's, I think, I think she's a good mum.
Calum McSwiggan
Oh, no, she's a great mum. She's not a perfect mum, but who is.
Hannah Witton
Me? I don't have any babies. It's fine. I liked this book. I really enjoyed it. I would highly recommend it.
Calum McSwiggan
Yeah, I would highly recommend it. Especially if you're a teenager.
Hannah Witton
Although, we've spoilt it all now.
Calum McSwiggan
Sorry. Sorry about it. Yeah, it's great.
Hannah Witton
And you're reading it in the Penguin LGBT book club.
Calum McSwiggan
Yes. So I am doing an LGBT book club where I'm reading a different LGBT book every month. I've already read it, but I'm reading it again.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, so February's book -
Calum McSwiggan
Yes.
Hannah Witton
And then if you are interested in more like LGBT, YA fiction, then the Penguin LGBT book club is probably a good place to start.
Calum McSwiggan
Yes, hop on, hop on over to my insta.
Hannah Witton
They've got loads of good stuff. What's your Insta, Calum?
Calum McSwiggan
@calummcswiggan. Good luck spelling that.
Hannah Witton
I'll put it in the shownotes, it's fine. Um, thanks for joining me.
Calum McSwiggan
Thanks for having me. It's great.
Hannah Witton
Thanks. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed it, I would really appreciate it if you left a rating and a review. You can find show notes at DoingItPodcast.co.uk, and do go follow us on social media @DoingItPodcast on Twitter and Instagram and I'll catch you in the next episode.