Chronic Pain and Losing Your Virginity "Late" with Scarlett Curtis | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Scarlett Curtis
Can I just clock that on your Instagram story today is 10 posts about FGM, and then a post of you doing a witch ceremony alone, in your garden, in your dressing gown for the full moon. And you ask me why you don't have a boyfriend.
Hannah Witton
Welcome to Doing It with me, Hannah Witton, where we talk all things, sex, relationships, dating, and our bodies.
Hannah Witton
Hello, so welcome to the first episode of Doing It. I've been planning this for so long, and I'm really excited to finally share it with the world. I'm your host, Hannah Witton. I talk about sex a lot online. I am super passionate about breaking down the stigma around sex, and our bodies, and just trying to reduce the shame in the world. I'll be releasing new episodes every Wednesday on Hump Day. But actually the second episode is coming out on Friday, which is in two days time, you're welcome. But from then on, it will be every Wednesday. So do subscribe on your podcast app of choice. The first two episodes, so this one and the next one, were recorded a while ago, I was using different microphones then, so don't be alarmed when the sound changes a little bit. But from Episode three onwards, it should be smooth sailing.
Hannah Witton
We also have social media, you can go follow @DoingItPodcast on Twitter and on Instagram, do get in touch and say hi. And please give this podcast a lovely rating and review if you enjoy it, it really helps to get the word out there.
Hannah Witton
My first guest for this first episode is an incredible individual, whose work I have admired for quite a while now, the amazing Scarlett Curtis. I started following her after reading her bestselling anthology, Feminists Don’t Wear Pink & Other Lies. It contains stories from so many wonderful women about their lives, and relationships with feminism, and you should really read it if you haven't already. Scarlett also co-founded the Pink Protest, a grassroots activist community, and they've launched campaigns against period poverty, FGM, and the shame that still surrounds female masturbation. I was lucky enough to visit her London flat and just sit and have a natter with her. It was actually our first time meeting in person, and it was so good to talk to her. We started off bonding over my surgeries and her chronic pain as a teenager, and this just led us to an amazing conversation about how we relate to our bodies, how that impacts our relationships, friendships, our dating and sex lives, and how finding feminism is ultimately what saved Scarlett.
Scarlett Curtis
I would say that if I'd had a sister, I'd have eaten her out of the womb, which is really dark.
Hannah Witton
Wow. I have a younger sister. I don't ever remember being jealous.
Scarlett Curtis
How old is she?
Hannah Witton
So she's 24, she's two years younger than me.
Scarlett Curtis
I couldn't handle that. I'm so competitive with my two years younger brother. I think that also comes from having been ill, I don't know. How long were you like out for?
Hannah Witton
I was out for, I love, that's such a good language to use for it though, because that's what it feels like.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's like you're just out of action. Like I think I was like 100% out for like, two months.
Scarlett Curtis
Right.
Hannah Witton
And like, still mostly out for like six months?
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. Because I was at a very competitive school and I was already very like driven and competitive, and then I was basically out of like five years. And so I think just watching everyone, like I remember so well the day my brother got his GCSE results and I hadn't taken any GCSEs, and I was two years older him, and I was in like a rehab centre at the time like going in every day. And I just went and I was like, my brother got 11 A stars and they were like great, and I just burst into tears. I cried the whole day and it was, it's really horrible like becoming that person as well, like feeling yourself resent people is a horrible feeling.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I even do that now, and I have to always check myself of like, okay, why am I feeling resentment towards this person? And actually like trying to unpack that of like, is it jealousy? Is it like, I don't know.
Scarlett Curtis
And also, like so many people, that were friends, and still our friends, didn't really know how to deal with me when I was ill. I'm sure you found that too. And I then like really resented them for that. And they're actually amazing people, who I'm still friends with today, and I hated having to see that side. Like I hated that I was put in that situation where none of us knew what to do. And in my head, I was like, I really hate that person like they've dealt - they've said the wrong thing to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
And so I wish I just never had to go through that, and then had to forgive them.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I totally get the, just like that feeling of falling behind.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like this last year for me, I felt like 2018 was pretty much a write off, and like I feel like there's a whole year of my life that I'm never gonna get back.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Do you feel that for that five years?
Scarlett Curtis
Literally, that is like my - I just had this, and I work in a really weird way and I'm really obsessed with work, and it's definitely been this feeling that I need to make up for what I missed. And actually this year, and it's so stupid cuz obviously you shouldn't even feel that, and this year I think is the first time I'm like, letting that go. For the first time in ages, I don't feel like I'm as harsh with myself, but I just felt this insane feeling of I have missed so much and I just need to make up for all of it.
Hannah Witton
Right! And then you work yourself like twice as hard, because you feel like you're playing catch up with everyone.
Scarlett Curtis
And also it's almost like revenge or something, like it's like I -
Hannah Witton
I will achieve all of these things, in spite of you, illness.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, exactly. It's really weird.
Hannah Witton
Did getting ill, like what happened to you, first of all?
Scarlett Curtis
So, when I was 14, I had an operation on my back, like a very routine one for scoliosis, which normally is completely fine. Weirdly, my best friend had it the week before and she was like, in and out, missed a week of school, I was like great, got my boxsets ready, like yeah, it's gonna be great. And then just something really freakish went wrong in my operation. So I was in, really like chronic nerve pain for like three years, had to drop out of school, was in a wheelchair, all this stuff. And then finally, after three years, I was misdiagnosed again and again. And then finally, after three years, they were like, oh, they didn't even say, they were like, we're just going to try and see what happens if we do another operation. And then I did the other operation and woke up and was like, yeah, I'm not in pain anymore.
Hannah Witton
That must've felt amazing.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, it did. But I had been looking forward to that moment so much and like, all I, this was actually because I was watching, I'm a huge fan of Hannah by the way. I was watching your videos of like running.
Hannah Witton
Oh, yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
And I got to a point, when I've been in pain for like two years, where it was too painful to imagine what it would be like to be able to walk without pain. So I would never think about it, ever. And then I remember I used to let myself think about it in the shower. It was like the one time. So in the shower, I'd think about what it would feel like to run and it would just be like, as soon as I can run that it's gonna be, my whole life's gonna be better, you know, never have a problem again. And then when I did get out of pain, the little thing called PTSD happened, and I was just such a mess and nothing that. I was just constantly thinking like, this should be the happiest time of my life, I've literally been counting down. I've never thought this moment exist. I never thought I'd get out of pain. That was my whole life. And I was just miserable. Like absolutely miserable.
Hannah Witton
Were you diagnosed with PTSD?
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, PTSD, anxiety, and depression. The big three.
Hannah Witton
What a great sandwich.
Scarlett Curtis
And I just also I just hadn't been in the world. I'd forgotten, I didn't, I hadn't ever learned how to be human. I gotten ill when I was 14, when you're like this baby. And then I got out of pain when I was 18. And I never, I was like, I have no idea how to do this.
Hannah Witton
How do I be an adult teenager?
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, how do I talk to people, how do I go to a shop? How do I, you know, leave the house without freaking out? How do I, like, I still get anxious on the tube, I still get anxious like doing all these things that, and actually one of my friends the other day was like it's so weird, all these things you don't know how to do, because you didn't do them when you were 14. And like they're just like these, all these little things, that I think I feel like I'm still learning but definitely when I came out of pain, it just all hit me in one go.
Hannah Witton
Like how did it change your relationship with your body?
Scarlett Curtis
So much. I think I just completely disconnected. There's something, I don't know if you had this, but I was also very young when it happened. But I felt like my body was just this awful thing, that had like betrayed me almost. It was just, it caused me pain, it didn't work. It was it couldn't move like all this stuff. And I just hated my body and it's really hard to distinguish between I hate this pain, and I hate my whole body. You know.
Hannah Witton
Right yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
And I just completely disconnected from my body, and I used to just felt like I was like this little brain, in a Kilner jar, or something. And then it took so long, like I feel like I'm still figuring out like how to be a human with a body, now because it's just all this weird stuff that you - you never want to have to think about your body in that way, and so many of us do, and I feel we don't really talk about how you deal with that, or how you get back from that, or how you sort that out in your head.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think for me, I always very much separated myself and the bits of me that were causing me pain or difference.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah
Hannah Witton
So like I guess in some cases that can be like a really negative thing, but then the flip side of it it's like since having a stoma, for me, like naming it Mona, and Mona having her own personality, referring to her as like she, rather than it. I do think of her as like part of me, but I still like think of her as having a separate personality, and for me that that helps me coming to terms with that, with my body. But then when I was ill with the pain, even though I like knew it was like one organ, it was my colon that was fucking with me and betraying me, like I think yeah, I just it was like my whole body. Screw you body, screw you immune system, like everything to do with you like, why are you fucking with me.
Scarlett Curtis
And there are things that pain does your brain that are insane. That justs twists, I always say it's like rotting your brain.
Hannah Witton
There are some thoughts that I had while I was in hospital and in pain, that like I've only told like some people who are very close to me.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah
Hannah Witton
I had thoughts like that. And this is one of the reasons why I'm like, I need to get therapy.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, I mean it took me a lot a lot of therapy, I'm still in therapy, and still on medication, all this stuff because it just twists your, it really does twist your brain and it makes you, it's also horrible just having those thoughts, like knowing you're a person who had those thoughts, I find that very scarring and weird.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think I don't know how you like felt about yourself like beforehand, but for me it was just like never had mental health issues, always super positive, energetic, like happy like. When I was ill, I was like, I don't know her.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. I used to hate my old self because I was like, she didn't know anything about the world. I was this really old like 15 year old, withered grandpa that was like, all you kids, you don't know what it's like to be in pain. But it was mad, and also there was just all these things that I think I missed that were a really big part growing up like I couldn't have any clothes, if I had any clothes that touched my back, it felt like I was being like stabbed. So I couldn't wear a bra. I had to wear this weird, I mean luckily I don't have my need for bra. But that's where these weird leotards. If I wanted to wear a top, I had to wear these leotards that were from American Apparel, and were meant to be really sexy and had no back.
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
Yes, I was, it was the only thing that like avoided the pain area. And I can only wear like size 22 jumpers, because they're the only things that didn't touch me. And so I just think it's taken me ages to like, think of myself as someone with a normal body again. Which is weird. I mean, that's part of being a teenager anyway, is like feeling really disconnected from your body and like it's kind of an alien thing.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, and then just all of this added stuff. That doesn't sound fun. Have you like how much have you talked about, like your illness and stuff online and things. Do you? I don't think I've seen much.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, I've done bit. So when I was ill, when I was 15, I started a blog called Teen Granny.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice.
Scarlett Curtis
Which was a knitting blog, because all I could do is knit and bake. When my family's asleep, I used to bake because I also couldn't sleep because of the pain, which was fun.
Hannah Witton
Just steal into the kitchen.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. So they'd come down to like my weird cupcakes that I'd made. So had a knitting blog called Teen Granny, and I never talked about being ill on there, or didn't for years. But it was kind of, it was so fun, and I made this whole little community of knitters online, and we had a group called the twit knit group, which was an online knitting group.
Hannah Witton
I love that there are communities for everything.
Scarlett Curtis
Everything. So we would all knit the same thing at once, and then once we did an auction for Comic Relief on it, and then once we did a scarf that we tried to knit all together, so you've knit a square and then send it to someone, but that went really badly. I mean no one sent them on and but it was really fun. And I just made friends with all these women that were kind of like in their 50s or 60s. And lots of them, it was really interesting, lots of them had kids who were ill, so they'd have to leave their jobs for that. So that was kind of nice. And once we all met up, and they were like, oh, you're literally a 15 year old girl in a wheelchair like, this is very odd. They were all so nice and amazing. And then finally, you know when you're first blogging, you feel like this huge responsibility to your fans, so I have like a few 100 people that read my blog, but I had another operation. So I didn't update my blog for ages. And then I wrote this post that was like, guys, I've been keeping secret from you.
Hannah Witton
Ooo, was that the title?
Scarlett Curtis
I think it was like, something to tell you, or something, yeah. Very like now, classic, YouTube video. And actually, that went down so well, and like all these people were sending me these amazing messages. And then I started blogging quite a lot about mental health, then like depression and all of that, that I was going through. And then I've, I've written a lot about mental health, and I've talked a bit about being ill. But it's funny, I feel like with the mental health stuff, I start, because I writing about it quite a bit, and then getting quite a lot of messages, and I started to feel like I didn't want to talk about it more till I had more answers. Or was like working with a charity that would do something, I just started to feel like it was a lot of -
Hannah Witton
Responsibility.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, and I just think, and I do not feel like I'm working with work with amazing organisation called Shout, and a few different people, and that makes me feel. But it's it's funny to me all the stuff -
Hannah Witton
That's like me, about to say it makes you feel more legitimised.
Scarlett Curtis
Not legitimised, just like I would know more of what to say if someone said something scary to me.
Hannah Witton
And you know where to signpost people to as well.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. And it's not just my, cause everyone's experience is so different, and what worked for me, might not work for you, and all of that stuff.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that sounds really similar to how I started basically giving sex advice on the internet. Because it was like that case of, oh, not lots of people, but like, yeah, a few 100 people started watching, and like YouTube Analytics being like, oh, your audience are mostly like young females. And I was like, okay, here's a thing that I am comfortable talking about, and interested in talking about, and not a lot of people are. I was going to ask though, because in the introduction that you did, in Feminists Don't Wear Pink -
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
You said like, about studying down on feminism, and like reading all these books, did you do a lot of that whilst you were ill?
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. So to me, weirdly like, it's funny when you say you don't really talk about being ill, because when I talk about feminism, I feel like I'm talking about being ill, just because that was like, so much how I found it. So I was 14, and I was pretty, like annoying teenager with pink dyed hair. And all the hospital appointments they went to was just me and my mum. We were really, I started to notice, and obviously now looking back I know a lot more, but we were treated in a way that they would just never have treated a man like that. Like, they basically just didn't believe I was in pain, and they didn't believe what I was saying, all this stuff and I went through some really horrid, like, almost abusive relationships with doctors and stuff. And so I think, you know, I was just a child on the internet and like, would find everything. And I started to read a lot of kind of articles about feminism and different things and was like, oh my god, this is it. Like, this is the first thing I've read, in years, that has made me feel better, and makes me feel understood, much more than when I read accounts of other people being ill.
Hannah Witton
Because you're like, now I'm understanding like the why behind it.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, totally. And I think at that time, at least, like when I was reading stuff about being ill, it was always like, I've got this amazing doctor, and like all these amazing teams behind me, and I just felt like I had no one and was kind of weirdly just fading into the background of the world. And I started to read stuff about feminism and it made so much sense. And also, I always say like, it just is the thing I love most like it's the thing that makes me so happy and excited, in a really weird way, like reading about women's oppression, like, makes me so happy.
Hannah Witton
You're like, yes give me more, but don't -
Scarlett Curtis
It's like geography nerds, or something. I just like -
Hannah Witton
Having said that, I'm currently reading Prisoners of Geography, which is a book about maps and politics.
Scarlett Curtis
I don't know anything about maps. And another thing of having being locked inside for three years, is I don't know my way around anywhere. So that's something I'm trying to learn at the moment. But I just I just got obsessed with it, and then would just read loads. The good thing about being off school is you have lots of time to read. So I would just read loads and loads of things.
Hannah Witton
I remember when, it might have been a couple years ago now, Emma Watson made a statement about taking a year off from acting. She was like, I'm going to take a year off from work, so I can read and learn about feminism and all of these different issues. And I was like, well it's lucky for some. I want to take a year of work to read about feminism, that would be great.
Scarlett Curtis
I know. Well, luckily I got that, by no choice of my own. Yeah. And I and then I ended up, so I ended up going to university in America, which was amazing.
Hannah Witton
Oh, nice.
Scarlett Curtis
Well, it was really awful at first.
Hannah Witton
What did you study?
Scarlett Curtis
So I ended up studying like, basically the history of women's social movements. So that also just really fueled, and I worked, it's funny, I always say, like, it sounds lame. But for me, like feminism was just this massive thing of self help, like, in every way, like reading it made me feel like I was part of this community. I started working, all the time, for like an activist organisation in New York, and then one back here, because, again, that making up for lost time, I just felt like I couldn't not. And that, it just really, like, helped me make sense of the world, and I think I had really thought the world didn't make sense. And especially when I was 15, I was like, I do not understand. I was always told this about the world, I'm discovering it's completely different.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
And I don't know how to bridge that gap. And feminism, for me, was the thing that just did it.
Hannah Witton
That's pretty cool. Yeah, I can't I don't remember, like, having any kind of moment of like feminism.
Scarlett Curtis
One of my best friend Grace is like, a born feminist. Like -
Hannah Witton
Oh, I've met Grace
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, she's amazing. But she is just like, I don't ever remember not thinking these things. And for me, I really remember not thinking those things. Like, I really remember, you know, thinking that all I wanted to be as a woman was pretty or like, just all these thoughts and, and I think, I think some people don't need that moment. But for me, it took a click moment -
Hannah Witton
Because I wouldn't have like necessarily put those two together of like, learning about feminism, helping you coping with being ill.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And like being in chronic pain. But that stuff you said about, like, doctors not believing you and stuff. So for the book that I'm writing at the moment, The Hormone Diaries, there's so much stuff in there because I was like, doing research about like, PCOS, and endometriosis -
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah
Hannah Witton
And things. And there's just so many accounts of women going to doctors in pain, and it just kind of being shrugged off as like, oh, that's normal.
Scarlett Curtis
It's absolutely mad.
Hannah Witton
Like, that's normal, like women are some women are supposed to experience pain just for existing.
Scarlett Curtis
But it is like that, it's mad.
Hannah Witton
Like, actually, my uterus lining is in the wrong place.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. And you start to feel like you're this really mad feminist. But like, if men, if the uterus was male, there would be a pill that you take. Like, if men got their periods, they wouldn't hurt anymore. Like we are expected to live in a certain amount of pain, and I have a lot of friends with endometriosis, and all their experiences are so like, what is like nine years, I think the average?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's something like that. Nine years is average time it takes for someone to get diagnosed.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And some of the reading that I was doing about how we interpret pain in men and women. And like, obviously, the the only research that there is is about like cis men and cis women.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, well, there's also for a lot of conditions, only research about men, because women's periods are seen as interfering with a clinical trial. So I was talking to this
Hannah Witton
Wait, what? I've never heard that
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. So I was talking to this mental health researcher doctor the other day, and I was like, why isn't there a pill that can help if you only get depressed on your period, why isn't there this? And he was like, oh, well, a good first step would be to get female mice into some of the drug trials. And I was like, what? And he was like, yeah, no mental health medication would be ever tested on a female mice or a woman. Because your period is seen as messing with the trial. All these pills that we're taking, like I've been on antidepressants for the last five years. Like that's never been tested on a woman, it's mad.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Hannah Witton
And now you're the guinea pigs.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
I know, like good luck.
Hannah Witton
Well, yeah, the thing with the pain, it was like, they didn't know whether there was some kind of socialisation that men and women describe pain differently.
Scarlett Curtis
Interesting.
Hannah Witton
Or if another layer of socialisation that men and women like are treated differently. All we know is that men and women's pain is treated differently by medical professionals, but we don't know whether it's because they're experiencing pain differently, or they're describing their pain differently.
Scarlett Curtis
That is so fascinating.
Hannah Witton
I feel like a lot of the time I'll be like, oh, you know, getting cramps or whatever it is, but you kind of like to shrug it off as, oh that's normal. Or like, if sex hurts you like, but I know, and like, as a sex educators as well, I feel like I have this like, responsibility to be like, sex isn't supposed to hurt. Like, if it does, go to doctors to get checked out. But like, for me, sex hurts sometimes.
Hannah Witton
And I've never practised what I preach, I've never been to the doctor. But it's because like, somewhere, from like, a really young age as a kid, it's been ingrained in me that because I have a vagina, sex is supposed to hurt me.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
Totally, so much. So like, I always say I was like, weirdly lucky, because I was quite a out there 12/13/14 year old. So like, a lot of people, I think, if they'd gotton ill when they were 14 would have like, never kissed anyone, never drunk anything, never taken drugs. And I've done all of that before I was 14. So I am not super behind, but then obviously from 14 to 19, I could barely talk to like the postman like, let alone a boy, let alone a friend. You know, it took me until I think when I was, yeah, when I was 20, I made my first proper friend. And that was like this huge deal. And then I made a few more friends. And then it was it just all came so late. Like I didn't lose my virginity till I was 22.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, it is really hard because obviously I'm like, all my friends are feminists, and part of a lot of feminist conversations, and there's a lot of really amazing work happening around like the anti slut shaming movement, and letting women be more sexual, more promiscuous, and it's amazing. And I think everyone should have all the sex they want to have. But I always felt very scared of sex, and very behind, and very not ready, like, and I think I was fine with that. And I would try, you know, when you have thoughts, and you're hard on yourself, and I would try not to be hard on myself about it, but to lose your virginity late is really hard. And I definitely like, felt shame around it. And especially in the last year, as in, like, when I was like, 20/21, I started to feel very paranoid about it. And at that time, I was doing a lot of feminist activism, and I had all these thoughts that like, if people found out that I was still a virgin, it would undermine my activism. I was like, and then people that knew I was like, they're all laughing at me, because they're like, how can she be a feminist if she's never had sex?
Hannah Witton
Did that bother you ever?
Hannah Witton
Did you kind of, I guess, like, because the sex positive movement is very much like, in within the feminist movement. And I hear a lot of criticism of sex positivity of it kind of almost swinging really far this other way of, like, have loads of sex and like, casual sex is great. And actually, for a lot, a lot of people, they can't relate to that, and then there's like an element of like prude shaming in sex positivity for some people.
Scarlett Curtis
I mean, I think I can see how it might see that if you've read like, one article about it -
Scarlett Curtis
I think, like, I read a lot of books about sex positivity, and talked to a lot of activists, like that did really help me, and I did know. You know, when you know, something on a cognitive basis, but not necessarily like an emotional basis.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
I knew that I wasn't ready. I knew that I had this very complicated relationship with my body, and with pain. I knew that it had taken me till I was 20 to make a friend, it wasn't going to, I wasn't going to get a boyfriend in a second. I knew all this stuff. But it's very hard to shake off 20 years of basic societal expectations that like, you're meant to have lost your virginity, and that was when you're a woman
Hannah Witton
Before you go to uni -
Scarlett Curtis
And yeah, I mean, I definitely felt like that going to uni.
Hannah Witton
Just with the whole, like, virginity, whether you, you know, you still have it or whatever. The language around it is horrible anyway, but just the fact that your value as a person is based on whether you've done this thing or not.
Scarlett Curtis
And you know, what's amazing is like it meant, I mean, I lost it in my 20s and it was great. Like, it was not stressful.
Hannah Witton
Yay!
Scarlett Curtis
But I mean, it wasn't, I think I could have so easily bowed to that pressure, and tried, I mean, I even hate the word lose it, I tried to have sex earlier than I was ready. And I'm, because of feminism I guess, I didn't. And that was a good decision. Like, yeah, it's, I mean, I definitely felt that stuff. And as soon as I, you know, as soon as I've had sex, I was like, I cannot believe I thought all those things, like having sex, or not having sex, doesn't make you a feminist like, yeah, it's nothing to do with it.
Hannah Witton
Do you feel like learning about feminism, on the one hand, you have all these thoughts of like, I'm not a real feminist I haven't had sex. But then also, did you think that some of the lessons that you learned from feminism actually helped you wait until you really were ready?
Scarlett Curtis
Completely, and I think they really helped like counteract that voice inside of me that was like, I'm a freak, because I'm 20, and I haven't had sex. Like it really did help. One thing I would say it doesn't help is, it's sometimes hard to find a boyfriend when you're like a huge feminist. It shouldn't be, but I think when you're 23 -
Hannah Witton
I often found whenever I put feminist in my Tinder bio, I would get less matches.
Scarlett Curtis
Yes, I can see that.
Hannah Witton
It is a good litmus test.
Scarlett Curtis
Totally. And I'm single at the moment, and I think just the thing is to be like, I'm not going to go out with someone that doesn't, is like intimidated by me for being a feminist. If it just means waiting, it's fine. But I wouldn't change that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
You just have to wait for someone that loves ending FGM, and witches.
Hannah Witton
That sounds like a great criteria.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, I should put that on my hinge profile.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Do you think that it's added on, because you're like a publicly known feminist as well. I've sometimes found for me, like dating in the past, it was like, oh, she does sex ed. So it was either this like pressure of like, oh, she must be really good in bed, and I'm like, ah, I'm still a vulnerable woman.
Scarlett Curtis
I think people think I'm really confident, and I mean, definitely not, like it's an area I still feel really like, behind it. And I think often as people like areas of your life can progress way quicker than other things. Like I've always felt very comfortable with work and like very confident in meetings or in any kind of work situation. But then, you know, like, last week, I had like, a million scary meetings and phone calls and didn't even blink an eye, like that's fine. And I was meant to be going out.
Hannah Witton
Teach me!
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, humblebrag. I was meant to be going out with some people, I find people my age, all my best friends up until I was like 21 were in their 40s or 50s. So I find it very hard sometimes being friends people my age.
Hannah Witton
Oh, this is gonna be such a like a way to segway, speaking of FGM. Pink Protest.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's launched a End FGM campaign -
Scarlett Curtis
End FGM campaign, hopefully, well, I'm sure it will still be going on when this comes out. Because imagine if when this comes out, FGM is over. Guys, it's done. We did it. Yeah. We've been working with this amazing actress called Nimko Ali -
Hannah Witton
Yeah -
Scarlett Curtis
Who you should get on here as well.
Hannah Witton
I know, I met her a couple of times, so, yeah -
Scarlett Curtis
And she is just incredible, and works all over the world. She's actually right now on a trip with a girl who's working on a campaign in Gambia, Somalia, and, and somewhere else. And she's like, she changed the law in Somaliland to make FGM illegal. She's just incredible. She does amazing things. And there, we, so Pink Protest is my group, and we're like a feminist activist collective, and we kind of create campaigns around activists. So basically, just making a kind of campaign that's easy for young girls to understand around this amazing work that we're were doing. So we did the free periods campaign with Amica -
Hannah Witton
Yeah
Scarlett Curtis
We did a campaign called hashtag Girls Wank Too -
Hannah Witton
I got, I think, I can't remember what, oh, I got the period book, the Illustrated one.
Scarlett Curtis
Yes, I love that, by Natalie -
Hannah Witton
Yes. By Natalie, and they sent me the Girls Wank Too postcards.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And I was like, this is brilliant. And it's on my cork board in my office. So it's like up there -
Scarlett Curtis
It was so fun. And we did this big event, which was just like 100 girls in a basement, like and no, it was just called, Girls Wank Too, and no one knew what they were coming to. And then we just all like chatted about wanking, and it was amazing.
Hannah Witton
Have you seen, I feel like everyone's probably seen at this point, but OMG Yes -
Scarlett Curtis
Yes, I love them. And there are so many people doing very cool things. And I just think like, genuinely, that campaign actually, for me, like I remember when I was 14, oh no, 13 or 12 or something and first started to touch myself, I literally thought was evil. Like I thought it was, I had never heard of anyone else doing it, I thought that it was proof that I was like, the scum of the earth. Like -
Hannah Witton
I like, I just didn't. I internalise all of that, and didn't do it at all. And it was like -
Hannah Witton
It's so weird. And I think also I tried to, because I remember, like, you know how you were saying, like, you can understand something in a cognitive sense, and an emotional, like you can't relate to it at all. So there was an element of me like cognitively understanding that girls can wank too -
Scarlett Curtis
And so many girls don't.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah
Hannah Witton
And it can be pleasurable, and it's not gross ,or disgusting, or weird. But emotionally I was just like, I don't understand how. I remember trying to finger myself -
Scarlett Curtis
Most people think you just like stick a finger up there, and like -
Hannah Witton
I remember trying to do that and being like, I'm not, I don't understand, I'm not feeling anything
Scarlett Curtis
That's fascinating because I've like, I was the opposite. Where in my head, I was like, girls should not do this, it's disgusting. And then was like doing it at night, and was like, I'm horrible. And I remember once I got my period while I was wanking, and I literally thought the devil was like sending me a curse, I was eek! I hear you, I hear you, I'm trying to stop. Anyway, we did that because that was fun. And then our next campaign is also vagina related, but a bit more serious. I feel like a lot of people, FGM is kind of one of those phrases that you like hear on the news or, you know is a thing, but a lot of people don't know it exists in the UK. Like 130,000 women and girls in the UK have been recorded as having FGM, we don't even know if that's like the actual number. Even though it's illegal here, no one's ever been prosecuted for it. It's, a lot of time, it happens where like a girl will be flown back to Somaliland in the school holiday and because there's so much kind of misunderstanding around it, a lot of teachers don't know like when to intervene. And there's just a lot of stuff here that a lot of people are very confused about. And the big thing we kind of picked up on is that FGM isn't, at the moment, included the Children's Act, which is basically like a bit of policy that -
Hannah Witton
Is that UK policy?
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, it's the UK Children't Act, it was made in 1998, and then amended in 2004. So often see, like the Children's Act 2004 which, when I was googling, I was like no, I want to find the one from 2018. It's actually called the Children's Act 2004.
Hannah Witton
Wow, okay,
Scarlett Curtis
So that's good to know. And FGM isn't included, and people think it was basically just like a fluke, like it was kind of left out by mistake because when they were crafting that legislation, there was none of this research out there on how many people in the UK experienced FGM. So there have been, there's been this big push, which was started by a peer from the House of Lords, called Lord Michael Berkeley, to try and get FGM into the Children's Act. It was voted on before, at the end of last year, and this evil evil MP called Christopher Chope was the only MP that blocked it. And we've made a whole website, which you can find on PinkProtest.org about all the things he's blocked in the past. He was the only MP to block the Upskirting Bill.
Hannah Witton
What's his constituency?
Scarlett Curtis
Somewhere in Christchurch in Devon.
Hannah Witton
Okay people of Christchurch, Devon -
Scarlett Curtis
Listen up, he was the only MP to block the Climate Act, he was the only MP to block the upskirting bill, he was the only MP to block Alan Turing's pardon, he's just like a very very bad man. So we're trying to push towards that, the vote is on February 1, but also just make it kind of part of this slightly bigger awareness building campaign around FGM over here, which I think is really interesting, and I love supporting Nimko in any way so it's been fun to do that with her.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so cool the different campaigns that you do with with Pink Protests. I think it sometimes, I think, when the scope of feminism, and like what there is to do is so huge and it can feel like really overwhelming -
Scarlett Curtis
So overwhelming -
Hannah Witton
That I guess it's nice to be able to be like, let's focus in on just this one issue, and like what is like an actionable thing that we can work towards achieving?
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's like it's like feminism and smart goals, at the same time
Scarlett Curtis
But also, feminism is so confusing like that. Because once side of feminism is like, stopping very privileged girls from dieting, which is a very important part of feminism. But there's also FGM and like, I think Grace talks a lot about - it's her phrase, so I'm giving her credit, but it's like, what-aboutery. So if you're like, okay, I'm doing a campaign around slut shaming and body positivity, people will be like, awhat about FGM? Or what about period poverty? Or what about this? and you're like, that's also bad, but this is what I'm focusing on now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Scarlett Curtis
You know, and I think we can't, I mean, there are enough people like Christopher Chope that we have to like, combat, we can't combat each other. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
My friend, Holly Bourne, said something about, like there being like this big feminist quilt, ties into your knitting days.
Scarlett Curtis
I love that
Hannah Witton
It's like everyone is like doing their own like bit of the quilt. And then it all like, comes together. Because the way that I think about it is like, where are your resources? Like, what are you passionate about? Where do you hold power?
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Like actually, where are you best used?
Scarlett Curtis
Totally. So I worked for three years as a social media manager for charities and actors and things. And like, I love social media, and I'm very geeky about it. And kind of, that's something I know how to do, and I can like code websites, and stuff. And Nimko can fly all around the world, like genuinely pulling girls out of the hands of men who are about to cut them. And I'm like, well, that's something I can't do. But you're really bad at Instagram and website, so I can help you with that.
Hannah Witton
I can build that.
Scarlett Curtis
And that's something I can do. And I think you're exactly right. Like, whatever you can do, try and do it. Don't kind of think you have to do something else.
Hannah Witton
And also, you don't need a massive platform.
Scarlett Curtis
No, not at all
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think people get a bit scared of like seeing people online being like, but look at all the people listening to them and what they can achieve. And it's like, some people just shouting absolutely nothing at thousands of people, but you can like make, you know, real change, like just by talking to your family and friends.
Scarlett Curtis
Totally, exactly, or just like trying to get a few girls in a room, and like, you know, do something from there.
Hannah Witton
What advice would you give? I know we've like just talked a lot, but do you have any advice for, we've talked about so much, like for someone who is maybe young and ill.
Scarlett Curtis
I think something, I've even been thinking about this loads this week, because I just always think that I need to, I think because I missed a lot of time, I've got all these like, things I should be doing, you know. I should have a boyfriend, I should be going on more dates, I should be, you know, doing this in my work, I should be having more sex, just all these things. And I never even stopped to be like, firstly, there's no rush. And also is that even something you want to be doing. And I think if you're in any way like having to take time out, whether that's because of your brain, or your body, or just like not really feeling like being human that day. There's no rush, and there's nothing you should be doing. Like if all you can do that day is, you know, get out of bed and have a shower. I've had hundreds, literally hundreds of days where I've had to write myself a list to do this in the morning. Like leave bed, get dressed, have shower, and I used to write down and cross it all off. And just take your time, and be nice to yourself. I don't regret anything, but the one thing I regret is not being kinder to myself when I was out of school, or when I was depressed, or when I was ill because it wouldn't have changed anything, if I've just been nice to myself but it would have meant I was less sad. Yeah. So just be nice to yourself.
Hannah Witton
It's such simple advice, but I think it's really difficult to like really, truly take on board sometimes.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah, it's funny when you come out of it and you look, I'm sure you have this, but you look back you're like, oh, obviously I couldn't answer my emails when I was in hospital. But when you're in hospital, all your thinking is like, I have 20 unread emails I need to answer.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I remember like lying in hospital bed and like, trying to put an out of office on, like from bed.
Scarlett Curtis
Yeah. And you've always got time to answer emails,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, emails can wait. Enough can wait. Be kind to yourself. Feminism is great. Yeah, that's what we've learnt. Thank you so much.
Scarlett Curtis
Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan of yours.