ADHD, Relationships and Kink with Cate Osborn | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I'm joined by the brilliant Cate Osborn. Cate or Catieosaurus as she is known online, is a certified sex educator with ADHD, a mental health advocate, and full time content creator. Her work focuses on funny, honest conversations about ADHD advocacy, disability awareness, and advocacy in sex education. Her area of interest is primarily focused on neurodivergent relationships, especially in the kink community. Outside of her work as an educator, she is also an avid gamer and player of Dungeons and Dragons.
I really wanted to get Cate on the podcast as I have been seeing more and more women get diagnosed with ADHD lately, and I wanted to get Cate's perspective and tips about managing having ADHD whilst dating, and also being kinky. Cate told me the unexpected story of how she got her diagnosis for ADHD. We then talked about how perceptions and studies of ADHD have let down women and other minority genders, as well as how typical understanding of ADHD focuses more on school and productivity and not emotions and relationships. Cate talked about how having ADHD can impact dating and relationships, especially unpacking what rejection sensitivity is, and how it can lead to a lot of people with ADHD either staying in unhealthy relationships, or going along with risky behaviour, or unable to say no when they want to. We talked about the relationship between ADHD and consent, and Cate discussed the need for conversations and education that highlight neurodivergency in kink to create better inclusion and safety. We also discuss Cate's own views on whether there is a link between people having ADHD and being kinky and why she thinks kink is a great tool for sex and managing stimulation for people with ADHD.
We spoke about relationship dynamics that occur in couples where one partner is ADHD, how it leads to parenting dynamics, and Cate's advice on how to help this in domestic relationships. Cate also gave advice on how to talk about your kinks when you have rejection sensitivity, how to communicate around sex when you have ADHD, and some tips to help people with ADHD to deal with intrusive and distracting thoughts during sex. Cate also shared some really interesting thoughts when discussing how people with ADHD can often be looking for new things, dopamine, and excitement, and the moral obligation of people with ADHD to treat people with compassion when navigating dynamics with their own neurodiversity.
I loved this chat, because Cate really brought to life what it can be like having ADHD and navigating intimacy, and also gave lots of helpful advice for both individuals and couples with ADHD partners.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram, which is @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify; it is really appreciated. And without further ado, here is my chat with Cate Osborn.
Hello, hello. Cate, welcome. How you doing?
Cate Osborn
I am very good. I'm about a quarter through my morning coffee. And so we'll see how this goes.
Hannah Witton
Right. So should we expect some change throughout our conversation?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, you're gonna - it's gonna be incredible. It'll - I'm gonna start like this. And then by the end, I'm going to be articulate and wise. It's gonna be incredible. So.
Hannah Witton
Well, no pressure, but I'm sure you will be from the beginning. First off, do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got diagnosed with ADHD and what that whole process was like?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, it was a it's a really weird story. Do you want the long version or like the short version?
Hannah Witton
I'm actually gonna say the short version, because then it means we've got more time to dive into the sex and relationship stuff.
Cate Osborn
Sure. Okay, so the very short version is that I had an ovarian torsion. And when I had an ovarian torsion, I had to have my left ovary removed.
Hannah Witton
This is not what I was expecting.
Cate Osborn
I know, nobody expects this part of the story. Nobody does. And this is honestly - it's literally one of the reasons why I do what I do now because of this experience. So I had an ovarian torsion, zero out of 10, do not recommend and my left ovary got removed. And in the following months, I literally thought I had early onset dementia. Like I couldn't remember anything. My life was falling apart.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Cate Osborn
Like, it was really bad. And so I was talking to a friend about it. And he's like, "I think you have ADHD." And I was like, "I don't have ADHD. I've been told my whole life. I don't have ADHD." And so then I went to a psychologist, who was like, "You do, in fact, have ADHD." But luckily, my doctor is incredible. And I got super, super lucky in that I got a doctor who has like ADHD, depression, and anxiety and just saw, I think, a lot of herself in me. And so she was the first person who was like, "Yeah, ADHD is related to your hormones. And so you just lost an ovary. Of course your hormones are like" all out of whack right now so, yeah, this makes sense."
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Cate Osborn
And I was like, "I'm sorry, what?"
Hannah Witton
So did it cause it? Or was it like always there and then it just exacerbated it?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, so ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder, which means that you have it, and it does not go away, but there are ways that you can make your life more manageable. There are strategies and structures that you can use. But basically, it's like, you know, you get accustomed to using one set of structures, one set of routine, you know, all of that stuff. And in my case, all of those structures and all of that routine started breaking down because my ADHD was just much more like pronounced, and it was much more noticeable in terms of my inability to focus and do stuff and all of that. And it's also one of the reasons why we see so many people, especially like women in their like early 30s and 40s getting diagnosed out of the pandemic because of that same reason, because of those systems and structures breaking down. And so it's yeah, it's been really, really interesting.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I've never thought of it that way. I just put it down to TikTok. But yeah, in my life as well, a lot of adult women that I know in the last couple of years have been diagnosed with ADHD.
Cate Osborn
Yeah, and a lot of it has to do those structures and all of that, suddenly being not what you were used to. And so there's been a lot - and a couple of interesting studies actually about just people finding out about ADHD because of the pandemic. And that's been really interesting.
Hannah Witton
So we kind of mentioned about, like, older women and stuff getting diagnosed. And that kind of leads on to this question about how our perception of ADHD is very centred on white men. And especially when it comes to like children with ADHD, the kind of like stereotype, the kind of archetype of a kid with ADHD is just like a hyperactive little boy. So how does that play into kind of like how those perceptions let down women and people of minority genders? And also like, does ADHD show up differently? Like, what is what is going on here?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. And the truth is that, I mean, the neurodivergent experience is diverse as people. And because neurodivergency affects pretty much every facet of life, you know, everybody's life is different and so they're bringing different experiences and different things to the table. But because the research has been so centred on, you know, seven year old white boys messing around in kindergarten, it's been very difficult for a lot of people to get diagnosis, to get corrected diagnoses. I hear all the time just rampant misinformation about what ADHD is, how ADHD shows up. Similarly, like with autism, and that kind of thing, where, you know, there's this like stereotype that you can't be smart and have ADHD, or you can't have good grades and have ADHD, or, you know, you don't look ADHD enough, whatever that means.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Cate Osborn
But those are things that, you know, real people who talk to me all the time tell me, and so much of it is based on sort of this like very narrow, very, I think, short sighted view of ADHD. You know, like ADHD is also often talked about as like, "Oh, it's a school thing." Or it's an organisation thing, or it's an home office thing. And it's like, yeah, I forget to send text messages and emails, that is true. But this is something that encompasses my whole everyday life, how I interact with the world, how I interact with people, how I, you know, interact in relationships. And so it's so frustrating to be a person who is looking for answers, who is looking to sort of better understand their brain and all of the books, you know, are sort of like geared towards children, all of the research sort of talks about it under this like lens of this like one sort of type of person. And so it gets to be frustrating. Thankfully, like we are, I think, in a really interesting time, where a lot of that is shifting, and there are a lot of new books being written. And a lot of it is, you know, coming from the perspective of people who are neurodivergent not trying to tell you how to like fix your neurodivergency. And I think that's really great. And I think that we are just now sort of at the, I think, the tipping point where I think we're really going to start having deeper and more fully like realised conversations about what neurodivergency is and the broad, broad scope of people that have a neurodiversity.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Which I don't know whether it's the circles that I run in, or if this is a reflection of reality, but I'm like, I think it's most people.
Cate Osborn
I mean, one of the things that I really struggled with is is the very idea of neurodivergency. You know, because neurodivergent means that there's something to diverge from. And that it's like, okay, well, it starts to be really kind of like gross really quickly when you start breaking it down.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, because it's like, where do you draw that line -
Cate Osborn
Yeah, exactly!
Hannah Witton
- between neurotypical and neurodivergent. And actually, like, once again, we're on some kind of spectrum of it all.
Cate Osborn
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, it should never be an us vs. them conversation. You know, it's like, I hear so much like, on TikTok about, you know, oh, the neurotypicals, you know, versus the neurodivergents. And I'm like, I feel like if we really expanded the conversation, to just say everybody lives with certain challenges, everybody lives with certain difficulties, you know, whether or not that be ADHD, or autism, or social anxiety, or whatever it may be. But you know, so many people, I think, have this this struggle, where it's like, "Oh, I'm not neurodivergent enough." And I think it's really important that that we do - I think it's really important that we open kind of those doors and say, "Everybody's struggle is different. Everybody's struggle is unique. It's not a better or worse, you know, conversation." But yeah, it's the term that I use because it's the term that we have, but I just wish that there was something that was more all encompassing and less based in like, "Oh, but you're actually not normal."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, something that didn't imply othering.
Cate Osborn
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Hannah Witton
So what are the things that you mentioned in terms of, like, the broad scope of life and experience that ADHD can impact is relationships. So I want to dive into, I guess, for you, but then also, in terms of what you see more broadly, how ADHD impacts things like dating and relationships.
Cate Osborn
Yeah. So when I first started talking about ADHD, again, it was that very school oriented, very work oriented, very, you know, focused on "Oh, do you struggle with text messages and doing the laundry." But the thing that I realised and I started researching, and you'll forgive the sort of trite way that I say this, but your brain doesn't really make a distinction between like your partner and a chicken sandwich. You know, like, if you put down a sandwich, and you know, because you're distracted, and you're thinking about something else, and you, you know, forget where you left it, and then you come back: "Oh, yeah, my sandwich." For a lot of people, that's how relationships work when you have ADHD. It is a very much like out of sight, out of mind sort of situation, like, it can be really hard for us to have the object constancy which is basically a fancy way of saying like object permanence, it's that but with emotions. You know, this idea that if I'm not directly interacting with a person, it can be really hard to uphold relationships. Also, a huge majority of people with ADHD, some research indicates up to 99% -
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Cate Osborn
- I still think that's a ridiculously high, like, bold statistic. But rejection sensitivity is a big thing,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, go - d'you wanna go into what that is?
Cate Osborn
Yeah. Um, so basically, rejection sensitivity - the fastest and the easiest way that I can explain it, is basically if you go to the doctor, and you say, you know, "I have a runny nose, a cough, a cold, and a fever," your doctor is gonna say, "Oh, you have a cold." That's just like the term that we use to, you know, sort of collectively identify those symptoms, as you know, a cold or whatever. The same is true with rejection sensitivity. Rejection sensitivity often gets talked about as though it is like a diagnosis, like it's a thing that you have. But in reality, what it actually is, is it's a collection of trauma symptoms. It's a collection of symptoms that are part of the traumatic reaction of living with neurodivergency, you know, being worried that you're doing something wrong or feeling like you're always screwing up or being told over and over and over that you're doing it wrong, or you know, being ostracised by your peers. And for a lot of people who are neurodivergent, that becomes so profound that it actually is a is a sort of set of symptoms, thusly, rejection sensitivity, just being absolutely paralysed by the idea that you may offend somebody, you may be rejected, like, all of that kind of stuff.
Hannah Witton
And I guess in like, the dating realm, does that kind of stop people with ADHD from kind of pursuing interests or like, making the first move kind of thing?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, actually, it's often the opposite.
Hannah Witton
What?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, I know. Often what we see with rejection sensitivity is because again, rejection sensitivity - for people who don't experience it, it can be so hard to explain that like, my entire day will spiral if you end a text message with a period instead of an exclamation point. But for a lot of people, that is the reality and it sounds so silly, but it's like no, that's just how our brain sort of processes information. But so for a lot of people, it's less about not approaching people. For for many, many people it actually is much more insidious and much more dangerous, in that they will stay in unhealthy relationships, they will take, you know, very risky or make really risky behaviour, especially in terms of like sexuality and intimacy, because of this idea that like, "Well, I don't want to be rejected, I don't want to have to go through that, I don't want to have to, like, deal with that sort of very scary, very uncomfortable feeling."
Hannah Witton
So almost kind of like going with kind of whatever somebody else wants to do as well, so as to not have that kind of conflict.
Cate Osborn
Exactly. And so self advocacy, and you know, meeting your own - like your own needs often become very secondary to the needs of everybody else around you. Because, like, part of being - part of rejection sensitivity for a lot of people is like, just rampant people pleasing.
Cate Osborn
You know, and like, just making sure everybody around you is okay all the time and it needs to be your problem. And you know, like, and so - and so it gets really insidious really quickly. And so sort of to circle all the way back around because that was very meandering is that that can be part of the relationship and intimacy experience. And one thing in particular, that really stuck out to me when I started this journey, sort of as like a sex educator, was how many people have told me stories about saying yes when they actually meant no, because of their fear of rejection, because, you know, they were worried about, like, keeping that relationship intact. And that was kind of the point where I was like, okay, so people are getting hurt, you know, people are not living in a way that is safe and healthy and okay. And it's because there aren't resources. There aren't a lot of conversations that are being had about, like, let's talk about rejection sensitivity and consent, or, you know, let's talk about time blindness in conversation with like kink, and BDSM, which is another big part of what I do.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay.
Hannah Witton
I was gonna be like, what is time blindness?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, time blindness is a big thing. And again, especially in kink, like I literally will go around to different, like kink like conventions, and I do a lot of like talks about neurodivergency, and how neurodivergency can really interact with things like kink and BDSM. And how do you keep somebody safe if you are, you know, an ADHD dom and you might, you know, forget details? Or how do you, you know, keep yourself safe if you are an autistic sub and you know, you struggle with communication or you go nonverbal or any things, because I really believe that neurodivergent people have a right to have really spectacular and wonderful and safe and supportive, you know, intimate experiences. But so much of the conversation surrounding sex and intimacy is absolutely predicated on this like, very, like, strange assumption that everybody is neurotypical, nobody has any trouble articulating themselves or, you know, advocating for themselves, and, you know, everything is perfect all the time. And it's like that - no, that's not what real life is, you know,
Hannah Witton
No. Not even for neurotypical people. I don't know why people have these massive expectations.
Cate Osborn
Exactly. I know. And it's so frustrating for me, like yesterday I did an interview where I was talking - where they were asking, like, "Well, how do you make consent sexy?" And I was like, "It is 2022. Are we still having a conversation about how to make consent sexy? Like, what are we doing?" And it's, and it's just - I feel like it's just because there's so much stigma, and there's so much just strange, I don't know, expectations that we put on, you know, sex and intimacy. And so one of like, the big focuses of my work - surprisingly, I didn't expect this when I started - is that it's so much less about sex. It's so much less about, like the mechanics of, you know, sexual intimacy. And it's just about self advocacy and communication, like 95% of what I talk about is like communication and advocacy for yourself. And then it's like, oh, yeah, and also, if you're, you know, having trouble here, here's some like mechanics stuff, you know.
Hannah Witton
The mechanical side of like sex education is where I feel like my most impostor syndrome as a sex educator. Like if someone was just like, "Do you have any tips like how to give a good blow job?" I'm like, "Communicate!"
Cate Osborn
Yeah, no, I'm always just like, "...um." Well, and then it's like, and then I always feel weird, because like, one of the things that I really struggled with when I was getting my certification is that I always - I, like - and this is an ADHD thing is I tend to communicate really anecdotally, which is a fancy way of saying that I can ask questions, but like, I just prefer to sort of like ping stories back and forth. And so it was like, it was really difficult for me because I was like, "Well, here's what I do. Here's a tip. You know, here's some tips and tricks."
Hannah Witton
Right, yeah. "I'm leaving you all these breadcrumbs in all of these stories that I'm telling you. You better latch on to 'em."
Cate Osborn
Yeah, exactly. But it's like - I don't know, but like, what works for one person might not work for another person. So communicate? And then you know, and then you get like the, "No, like, what do I actually do?" And I'm like, "I don't know, man. Just whatever works."
Hannah Witton
Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one because I'm also very much like that. With the kink side of things, is there kind of like a correlation between like being ADHD and kinky? Is that something that you've seen?
Cate Osborn
Oh, man, this is a very spicy answer. Because it's an exceptionally hot take backed by no science.
Hannah Witton
I love it! Give it to us!
Cate Osborn
But there's, there's been a couple of studies. There have been a couple of studies about like sexuality and kink and neurodivergency. And I always want to be like really careful, because I know my personal answer, but it's not based in science. And so I have to like strategically say this. But there are indicators that a higher percentage of people who are neurodivergent find themselves interested in participating in the kink communities. However -
Hannah Witton
Very diplomatic.
Cate Osborn
Well, and it's sort of like a - like a chicken and the egg situation. Because we also see this a lot with gender expression. There's been a couple of studies done about how neurodivergent people express gender and sexuality. And there are technically like, higher rates of, you know, like queer and gender sort of like curious people in the neurodivergent community. But it's sort of like, okay, are neurodivergent people just like predisposed to being kinky? Or is kink, a tool that is truly excellent for neurodivergent people? Or is it neurodivergent people enjoy kink and so therefore a neurodivergent community has sprung forth in kink. It's like, where - like - what is the why, you know?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yep, yep yep.
Cate Osborn
But my sort of very non scientific opinion is that kink is a tool and it's one of the reasons why I advocate for it so unapologetically and so just like much all the time, and it's because kink is a tool. It is - it is stimulation, it is - it is, you know, like it engages both your body and your mind. And so, I think for a lot of people who struggle with feeling overstimulated or understimulated, kink is a safe space, where you can absolutely control how much stimulation you are getting. If you if you are understimulated, and you want to become very overstimulated, that can happen. If you are very overstimulated, you can take away senses, you know, you can put on a blindfold, or earphones, or whatever, and get, you know, less stimulated. And so it becomes this really powerful tool. And because also, like the kink and BDSM community is absolutely based in, you know, consent, and negotiation and respecting boundaries, you get to do it on your own terms. And for a lot of people, and, you know, I - myself included, you know, as a person with ADHD, who often struggles with sort of feeling like I have to like overcome all of this executive function to just function in the world, being able to sort of like come to this space where you can absolutely do it on your own terms, you can make that experience what you need it to be to honour your own needs, I think that's an incredibly powerful thing for a lot of people. And so it's like, are neurodivergent people statistically more likely to be kinky? Maybe. But is it a really handy tool if you happen to be neurodivergent? Absolutely, yes.
Hannah Witton
And I guess like, for people who have ADHD who are hearing this but would consider themselves vanilla and maybe find the world of kink quite daunting, what would be something that you would recommend? Because obviously, kink is is not just like extreme or nothing.
Cate Osborn
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing is, is, "Hello, welcome. It's okay. You don't have to be afraid come on in. The water's fine." I mean, the real thing is, is that I think, too, one of the - one of the beautiful things about kink is that it is as much or as little as you want, and want to negotiate, and need. You know, there is no expectation that you overstep your boundaries, you know, there is no pressure to be anything that you don't want to be. And so for some people, like, you know, putting on a blindfold, or you know, some like spicy music, that might be the, you know, like the kinkiest thing in the entire world. You know, for other people, you know, they might need something much more drastic, you know, to sort of have that kinky experience. And that's also totally valid. And that's also totally okay. And so I think there is a space for everybody. And particularly - because there is so much. There's so much to the world of kink. There's so many things to do and try and explore. I think part of the journey is sort of that first dipping your toe in. What do you like, what do you not like, what are you into, like, "Oh, I kind of liked this thing. What are the adjacent things to that." You know. And so you can sort of like ease yourself in on your own terms and at your own pace. And I think that's also really nice, you know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, that makes sense. I wanted to kind of go back to what you mentioned about advocacy, and kind of talking about that within romantic and sexual relationships, especially where one person has ADHD and one person doesn't? And kind of what are some things that can crop up that can kind of cause conflict for lack of a better word, or just kind of like misunderstandings? And then how can you use advocacy to kind of like bridge those gaps?
Cate Osborn
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's so many, right? There's so many places. But fundamentally, like, one of the big things with ADHD is that ADHD profoundly affects your executive function. And your executive functions are fundamentally like the things that your brain does to get you through the day. And a lot of that has to do with things like task management and prioritisation and task initiation. You know, like, for a lot of people with ADHD, the idea of like, "Oh, I have something, you know, like - it's nine o'clock in the morning, but I have something at four o'clock, and I feel like I can't do anything until then." Like, that kind of thing.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Cate Osborn
Where from the outside, looking at that and saying, like, "Oh my gosh, like, why haven't you done the dishes? It's been a week." Or, you know, like, "Why haven't you put your laundry up?" Or whatever it may be - it can be really frustrating. And so one of - I think, again, it comes down to communication, and negotiation. But one of the most powerful things I think somebody with ADHD can do in a relationship is simply just talk about their experience. Talk about, like, the things that you struggle with, the things that you don't necessarily excel at, but also where you do. Because in a healthy partnership, there is a there is a balance, there is a mutual support. And you know, like, for me, one of my weird things is like, I hate putting the silverware away. It's just like, I don't know what it is. But it's like the most tedious, boring job, I don't mind putting the dishes away. It's just the silverware. So it's like, you know, my husband does that, you know. It's that easy.
Hannah Witton
I love how specific that is.
Cate Osborn
I mean, and that's - well, and that's the thing is like - is like there there are such specific, like - I don't want to say weird, because it's putting like a judgement on it. But there are specific and direct ways that ADHD will just like crop up in your everyday life, you know what I mean? And whether it is things like, oh, putting the silverware away feels terrible, whereas, you know, putting the dishes away is fine. But you know, even things like sensory issues, sensitivity issues. A lot of people with ADHD have sensory issues in terms of like sound overwhelm or like food sensitivities which tend to usually be talked about in conversation with autism, but there's a big overlap in ADHD and autism anyway. And so a lot of people with ADHD often don't know that they are also autistic. But also some people with ADHD just have sensitivities outside of autism.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay.
Cate Osborn
And so, you know, for being a partner, if that sensitivity involves some sort of like, intimate activity, or, you know, I'm really sensitive to smells, or sounds, or lights, or whatever it may be, that can impact the intimate experience. But one of the things that's really difficult is like, you know, you said, "Well, what kind of issues can crop up?" And it's like, well, how many places are there in your life where your neurodivergency is going to affect how you're navigating through the world, you know? And it's so many, you know, it's things like communication. It's things like time blindness is a big one for many people in relationships.
Hannah Witton
Oh, we never defined that. And I'm just remembering!
Cate Osborn
That's okay! Yeah, so really quick. So basically, time blindness is there's a phenomena that has been studied a lot, actually, where people with ADHD have a very hard time gauging how much time has passed.
Hannah Witton
Right, okay.
Cate Osborn
Or how much time something will take. And so you know, you know, that kind of like, very stereotypical joke about like, "Oh my gosh, like, I got to my girlfriend's house, 15 minutes before a date was supposed to start and she took two hours to get ready." It's like, I always hear that and go, "Oh, does she have ADHD? Because she might not have just known." You know, like, that kind of thing is like it can be problematic when it comes to like, "Oh my gosh, it's been two weeks, since I called my long distance partner." Or, you know, "Oh my gosh, it's been a month since we went out on a date." Or, you know, like, that kind of thing. But also, similarly, it can, you know, to kind of bring it back to like kink and BDSM and stuff. It can be dangerous. You know, if you're in a scene where you're like, Yeah, I'm going to do this activity for 10 minutes, and then it goes for 30 because you have time blindness, like, I literally have irreversible, like, physical damage, because I lost track of time in a scene, you know. And should I have said something? Should my partner have been keeping track? Like, excellent questions for the future?
Hannah Witton
Yeah, like, whose responsibility is that? And - yeah.
Cate Osborn
Yeah, and so like, you know, that's, that's a big one that I always teach at kink conventions is if you know that you struggle with time, you need to talk to the person that you're playing with and figure something out. If it's a phone alarm, if it's, you know, you're gonna do it to music and when the song stops, or like whatever it may be, but you know, that's a big one.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, your time blindness playlist.
Cate Osborn
Oh, I have one. I absolutely - I have - I have a killer kink playlist.
Hannah Witton
Is it public?
Cate Osborn
I think it's on Spotify.
Hannah Witton
Well, if you can find the link to that I'm sure people would love to peruse. Okay, one of the questions that I have, like one thing that's been nagging in my mind, especially when it comes to kind of like you mentioned some of like the mundane house chores, and like domestic - domesticity in relationships. So the dynamic with me and my partner - as far as I know, neither of us have ADHD. Although my sister in law thinks that my partner does have it, but that's a story - that's a story for another time. But I'm the like organised one. And I'm also a woman. And so there's a lot of kind of like what I'm good at versus like - our - kind of like the gender stereotypes of our roles in our relationship. And so this just makes me think of like, how do you navigate ADHD but also like gendered dynamics in a relationship? And all of these things are just like kind of piling on my head and I can't think of a coherent question. But do you understand what I'm trying to say?
Cate Osborn
No, it's okay. I mean, yeah, no, I do. And actually, it's really interesting that you brought that up, because one of the biggest sort of factors in relationships for people with ADHD is the parentification of one partner. And it's something that happens a lot, where one partner, you know, takes on the organisational role, and the cleaning role, and the picking up after the person and keeping track of them and all of that stuff.
Hannah Witton
Managing the household kind of vibes.
Cate Osborn
Managing the household, you know, and that can lead to a lot of resentment. It can lead to a lot of bad feelings, it can, it can lead to a lot of bad. And so, I mean, there's a lot of different ways to fix it. And you'll be shocked when I tell you that one of the best ways is to communicate about it. I know, bananas. But what one thing that actually really helps, and that I've seen and studied a lot, is an equitable breakdown of household tasks, which often comes with a, you know, literally sitting down with a poster board and saying, "Okay, what do we need to do around the house, you know, do we put stickers on the chart?" Or, you know, whatever it may be, and that can really be helpful. With ADHD, oftentimes the conversation surrounds the deficit. It surrounds the idea that, you know, there's this fundamental thing that, you know, doesn't quite work correctly in your brain. And so you're going to struggle in these ways. And you're going to, you know, have problems in these ways, or whatever. But one thing that I think is really powerful, and really, really useful, is to flip that script and say, yes, you might struggle with these things. But you are also good at things. There are also things that you excel with, at, and are good at and are passionate about. And so finding those places, and it's like, well, okay, I'm not going to be passionate about doing the laundry. I don't think any human being in history has been passionate about folding laundry.
Hannah Witton
I've got one friend who loves ironing. And at university, she would like offer for us to bring her our clothes, and she would iron them.
Cate Osborn
I mean honestly, I would like to know this friend. So in some ways, I - like I'm always really cautious, because I think dividing up the household chores is still, you know, like, that's, like kind of the bare minimum. But in a lot of ways, what it does is it offers that person who might be struggling an opportunity to step up, but then there's like that secondary conversation of, "Yeah, well, you know, I forget to do things or you know, if it's something that I'm only supposed to do, like once a month, you know, change the filter or whatever, you know, I'll forget." And it's like, well, then that becomes let's build you better systems. Let's, let's build better structures, where, you know, we have visual reminders around the house, or you have calendar reminders, or whatever.
Hannah Witton
Now you're talking my language.
Cate Osborn
Yeah. And, you know, stuff like that. And it's one of those things where, like, you know, in my house, we have a chore chart. We have like a little thing where it's like, hey, this is the stuff that needs to happen, this is the stuff - you know, and who's going to do it this week, or whatever. And a lot of people look at that and go, "Oh my god, like aren't you embarrassed? Like that's for kids? That's for children." You know? And I look at it and I say, "It's not silly, if it makes your life easier. It's not invalid because it's, you know, like, 'oh, you know, that's for kids.'" It's like no, like, if you need phone reminders to remember to take out the garbage, if you need a calendar on your house to remember to do the filter or pay the bills or whatever, that is a tool. That is a system. That is a structure that you are building for yourself in order to support the relationship, in order to live your best life. Why are we putting judgement on things like sitting down and divvying up the chores, when that is ultimately going to lead to a healthier relationship and more positive feelings between everybody involved? You know.
Hannah Witton
We had a whole bunch of questions from people on Instagram and there's some really good ones. So I want to kind of like dive into as many as possible.
Cate Osborn
Speed round!
Hannah Witton
Oh, let's go. Somebody asked: how to navigate telling a partner about spicy kinks when you have a really bad rejection sensitivity?
Cate Osborn
That is a very good question. My immediate answer - And, you know, again, I always - I always preface like the speed round stuff with like, what works for me may not work for you. take what you want, leave what you don't, I won't be offended, it's fine. But for people with like profound rejection sensitivity, it can be really scary to be really vulnerable. It can be really scary to advocate for yourself. And that is okay. And that is valid. But ultimately, I think it comes down to two things. One, you can absolutely remove yourself from the conversation, which sounds funny, but basically like sitting down and writing a letter or an email or texting them even, right?
Hannah Witton
Oh, so you don't see their initial reaction.
Cate Osborn
Yeah, and one thing - I love letter writing. Maybe I'm just very old fashioned. But I think that writing down your thoughts can be really useful for a neurodivergent person. Because, you know, a lot of times like people with ADHD, we tend to have like 47 thoughts in our head at one time. And so writing them down, organising them, you know, that gives you an opportunity to really sort of say what you want to say thoughtfully and in a way that makes sense. But even past that, you know, if you're like, "Oh, I don't want to write the letter, but I really want to have the conversation." I think reframing the conversation can be really powerful. And this is something that genuinely helped me. Telling your partner what you want is a gift. Telling your partner is honestly not about you so much as it is about them. You are giving your partner the opportunity -
Hannah Witton
Yeah. "I am giving you a present of getting to know me better."
Cate Osborn
Yeah, getting to know me better, letting you know what type of pleasure I enjoy, what type of intimacy I enjoy. I'm trusting you with this ask of you know, here's what I would like to do with you, you know, share this intimate experience together. And I think that really helped me is really thinking about it as advocating for yourself is both great for you but it's also really good for your partner. So.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, one piece of communication advice that I remember receiving that was really interesting to me, was about how because we're social creatures, we tend to react to things in a way that we think we're expected to react to them. So if somebody comes to us and says, "Hey, please don't be mad, but I want to tell you about this thing." Like, then you're then gearing yourself up to be mad.
Cate Osborn
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Or to have a negative reaction. Whereas if you approach someone and you say, "Look, I know that you are a wonderful, accepting, and open minded, and curious human being. And with that in mind, I want to tell you about this thing." Then they're going to react as all of those lovely things that you just told them about them.
Cate Osborn
No, it's totally legit.
Hannah Witton
So yeah, try that as well. Give them a bit of flattery beforehand. "You know, you're - you love me and you're so great. And you're going to totally be lovely to me when I give you this piece of information." Try that. Okay, somebody asked: any ideas on managing all these crushes? The novelty is so intriguing, but I want PEACE. And pieces in all cups. So you know it's important.
Cate Osborn
Yeah, so one thing that we didn't really get to talk about much but this also comes up a lot is that one thing about ADHD that can be really detrimental to relationships is the fact that people with ADHD are often seeking that sort of, you know, dopamine, that stimulation, that excitement, that like fresh, new thing. And so I hear this a lot. I get this question all the time. And my answer is not very much fun. But I think ultimately what it comes down to is that it is - as the person with ADHD who is having the crushes - it is totally okay, it's totally okay, it's totally valid to have crushes, to be interested in people, to be curious about people. But at the end of the day, it is your responsibility as an ethical, good, compassionate human being to remember that the people that you are crushing on or interacting with are, in fact, people. They are human beings with real feelings and real emotions, and the repercussions of your actions can be profound. And if you are the type of person who tends to, you know, do that thing where you spend all your time talking to, you know, like one person for like, two weeks, and then you know, you kind of like, start withdrawing a little bit and then there's like another cool new person and you do the same thing and then you do the same thing. That can be really hurtful to those people who, you know, are sitting there going, "Hey, like, we had this really great conversation and we were like, really getting on and then you just kind of disappeared, like that's not okay."
And so I think my honest answer is hyperfixations are going to happen, crushes are going to happen, but it is your responsibility to mitigate that damage and to treat people compassionately, whether that be saying at the beginning that "I have ADHD and I tend to, you know, text in bursts, and you might not hear from me for a couple of days." Or, you know, establishing boundaries surrounding that, because for some people, that might not be okay, that might not be the type of relationship that they're looking for, and non-consensually putting them in that type of very, like casual crush relationship - that can be hurtful to them. So honestly, at the end of the day, I think that unfortunately, the no fun answer is that as neurodivergent people, as much as, you know, there are some things that we cannot help, there are some things that we just are the way we are, it is still our responsibility as humans to mitigate that damage and treat people compassionately and to do as little harm as possible in navigating our own neurodivergencies.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. another thing that we haven't really touched on, but somebody has a question about so we can get in is: how can I deal with the intrusive thoughts and distraction that pop up during sex? My brain can't stop thinking.
Cate Osborn
Oh my God. Oh my God, it's, uh, let me introduce you to kink. No, but I mean, oh my gosh, like, if I had a dollar for every time I got that question, I'd be a rich, rich man. Because it's it's such a common issue. It's such a common thing for people with ADHD. Because again, our brain is always looking for that stimulation, our brain is always looking for that like thing, right? And so if you're enjoying yourself, and then the ceiling fan starts clicking like, it's all over, you know? And so, for - like, intrusive thoughts are a little bit different, because often intrusive thoughts are thoughts that are like, very uncomfortable or very, like, not fun, right? But I think in those moments, if my therapist has taught me anything, is that remembering that one, like, intrusive thoughts that are like weird, or, you know, like, "Oh my gosh, like, that's, that's not who I am as a person" - it's not. It's your your brain, your anxiety is creating this sort of, like, worst case scenario, you know, like, "What if I punched him in the face right now?" It's like, you're not going to do that, right? That's not a representation of who you are. It's actually absolutely counterintuitive.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I mean, whoever that philosopher was that says, "I think, therefore I am" has a lot to answer for.
Cate Osborn
Yeah, honestly. Because it's like, no, like, you really can't control your thoughts a lot of the times, you know, and so, you know, ADHD, and intrusive thoughts is really interesting. It's a really interesting topic, because there's also the element of like, then hyperfocusing on the thought, right? And then it like, flips into that, like, that's all you're thinking about, like, "Am I actually a murderer?" It's like, "No, I'm pretty sure that at this point, I know that I'm not." You know, so like intrusive thoughts that way, but then also just simply like distractibility during sex is something that we didn't touch on a lot. But it's a big thing. And that is where communication - I'm so tired of it. I'm tired of it - but you know, like communication is super helpful, right? Like talking about like beforehand, saying, like, "Ley, like, you know, can we check in? Can we work to keep each other present?" But also, again, like jokes aside, like, that's something that kink can be really helpful for too, you know. If you get distracted by outside noises, or you get distracted by like, looking around the room and thinking about the mess, like throw on a blindfold, throw on some headphones, whatever you need to do
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Can you like ADHD sex proof the room like beforehand?
Cate Osborn
Yes. It is - it is possible. I have done it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I guess like, once you kind of learned like, what are things that you can find distracting? You're like, "Right, that's off. That's off. That blind is shut. This - we're ready."
Cate Osborn
Yeah, exactly. And, and I think like, honestly, valuing that as part of the process, you know, like embracing that as hey, this is -
Hannah Witton
That transition as well.
Cate Osborn
Yeah. You know, it's like, Hey, this is a need that I have, this is a thing that I struggle with, like this is the transition into sexy time.
Hannah Witton
Part of foreplay.
Cate Osborn
Yeah. And it's also like just watching your partner like adjust the room to make you comfortable, like that's kind of hot. They care, you know. They want you to be comfortable like that's, that's sexy, I think.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Cate, thank you so much. This chat has been absolutely wonderful. And please tell us where our listeners can like find more about you and all your work online and in the world.
Cate Osborn
Oh my gosh, okay. So many places. Buckle in.
Hannah Witton
Let's go.
Cate Osborn
So I go by Catieosaurus on all the social medias. If you are looking for more sex and kink content, there is a lot over on TikTok in short form, great for ADHD. If you want a little bit more in depth, a little bit more about like the kink and BDSM side, you can check out my YouTube channel, it's also Catieosaurus. I also have a podcast. It's called Catie and Eric's Infinite Quest: an ADHD Adventure. We're available wherever you listen to podcasts. We talk a lot about sex and kink and ADHD and living life with like depression and that kind of thing. We also play Dungeons and Dragons. My weird second job is I play D&D. I talk about sex on one corner of the internet and I talk about accessibility and neurodivergency and TTRPGs on the other side of the internet.
Hannah Witton
Oh my god.
Cate Osborn
And it's - the Venn diagram is basically a circle of kinky people playing Dungeons and Dragons so it's fine.
Hannah Witton
Makes sense.
Cate Osborn
And I stream on Twitch, I have an Instagram if you want to see pictures of my dog, and if you just want to learn more about me and what I do, consulting services, find all the articles and everything, you can head over to catieosaurus.com
Hannah Witton
There you have it. Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been an absolute joy. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye.
Cate Osborn
Bye!