Abortion Rights, Sex Ed and Intersectional Feminism in Cambodia with Catherine Harry | Transcript
CW: discussion of abortions, mention of sexual assault
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I am joined by Catherine Harry, a sex educator from Cambodia, who I actually first met at a UNESCO conference in Istanbul in February 2020, where we were on a panel together about being sex ed content creators. Catherine is a feminist vlogger and founder of A Dose of Cath, a channel that focuses on sex education, gender equality, and cultural issues from a feminist perspective. Named one of Forbes 30 Under 30 Asia in 2018, and shortlisted as one of Women of the Future Asia 2019, Catherine has been working to raise awareness about feminism and empower women and girls.
I wanted to get Cath onto the podcast to talk all about her work and experiences as a sex educator in Cambodia. Cath told me all about what it's like growing up in Cambodia, how it's a conservative culture, and what that looked like from being made to memorise the women's code of conduct at school to the big purity culture. Cath talks about the turning point for her when she started to unlearn these misogynistic cultural values, and how coming across videos about feminism led her to start to question everything she was taught and believed. We talked about Cath's own sex education work and making videos in Khmer to make it accessible for all Cambodians. We talked about her most requested topics and how she's taught a lot of people where the clitoris is. Cath talked about the lack of adequate sex education in schools but how LGBTQ+ rights have been improving in Cambodia with more pride events and acceptance.
Cath also talked about her work with abortion organisations and made an interesting point that whilst the government isn't actively against abortion, organisations actually try to stay quite subtle, so they don't provoke any overt opposition. We spoke about what it's like navigating sexual health and access to services and contraception in Cambodia, and how misconceptions are the biggest barrier to sexual health rather than accessibility. Cath talked to me about what intersectional feminism means to her and how she incorporates this value in her own feminist and sex education work in Cambodia. She told me how the people who take the biggest issue with her work tend to actually be Western white men, because they think that they can go to Asia to escape the feminists back home, and they want women to remain as their submissive concept stereotype of Asian women. And Cath breaks all of those stereotypes down.
Cath also spoke about how race massively impacts how accepting and tolerant Cambodian society can be towards queer tourists. We also spoke about the importance of self care as an online sex educator, the need to protect yourself from negative comments, and having a support system who care about you and your work and help you when you're dealing with online hate. I really enjoyed this chat and hearing all about the important work Cath is doing to provide such important information to her fellow Cambodians.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk where can also find transcripts. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please leave us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It is really, really appreciated. And without further ado, here's my chat with the brilliant Catherine Harry.
Hello, Cath, welcome to Doing It. How are you? I'm very excited to see you again.
Catherine Harry
Yeah, it's been, what, over two years? The world before the pandemic was like a fever dream to me, honestly.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. It's so wild that we got that like trip in like right before everything shut down and we got to meet. And I'm really excited to connect with you again and like chat all about the work that you do. Do you want to chat first about kind of like tell us about what it was like for you growing up in Cambodia, in terms of the messages and stuff that you received around sex and relationships and all of that stuff?
Catherine Harry
Well, so Cambodia is a relatively conservative country. Very patriarchal. And growing up, there were - there was a lot of conditioning in terms of being spoon-fed, patriarchy, misogyny, sexism, and I have had a lot of unlearning to do. I feel like I still need to do a lot of that even now. So we have - I guess we should start with one of the biggest things in our culture is that there's this thing called Chbab Srey, or the women's code of conduct, so it's like a set of rules of what women should and shouldn't do.
Hannah Witton
Oh.
Catherine Harry
So things like you should be a good wife, you shouldn't sleep before your husband, you should always sleep after him because you need to finish all the household chores. And you need to wake up before him -
Hannah Witton
Like go to bed? Wow.
Catherine Harry
Yeah. And even things like you always need to please your husband, you shouldn't go to your neighbours for too long because you need to do all the household chores, you need to look after your kids. So things like that.
Hannah Witton
Wow.
Catherine Harry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And is this like in law? Or is this like a cultural set of rules?
Catherine Harry
It's - so it's a set of poems, and it was taught in school to teenagers, until about 2007 that they actually pulled it out of the school curriculum. But before that, we were actually forced to memorise them. And so like, it kinda like began this whole -
Hannah Witton
So that would have been when you were in school?
Catherine Harry
Yeah, I actually had to learn it.
Hannah Witton
When you were in school. Were you taught it?
Catherine Harry
I had to learn that as well.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Catherine Harry
I know. And we were teenagers, and we had to memorise all these sets of rules for women and what to do. There's also this thing in our culture -
Hannah Witton
What were the boys taught?
Catherine Harry
So they have their own set of rules, but it was only things like you should be kind, you should be nice to people, you shouldn't be an asshole. So like basic human decency, basically.
Hannah Witton
Okay. Yeah.
Catherine Harry
Yeah, we have a strong virginity culture. So there are a few things. For example, there's a saying that women are like white cloth. If you are stained then you're stained forever. Obviously, they've never heard of bleach.
Hannah Witton
Oh no.
Catherine Harry
So basically saying that if you lose your virginity, then you cannot wipe that off, you're going to be stained forever. Or there's another thing saying that women - having a daughter is like having a pot of fermented fish at home. If you uncover that, then it's gonna smell and no - and you cannot hide that smell, you know, very misogynistic.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Imagine saying that about your daughter.
Catherine Harry
And do you know what men are compared to? Men are compared to gold.
Hannah Witton
Not fermented fish, I imagine.
Catherine Harry
No, men are compared to gold, saying that no matter what happens, even if you melt them, they're still gold. You know?
Hannah Witton
How was that with the kind of like unlearning of all that, that you mentioned? Or, like, when you were young, in school, and like you were receiving all these messages? Were you questioning it then? Were you like, "Hang on, like what's going on?" Or did that come a bit later? And like, what was that turning point for you?
Catherine Harry
So I mean, when I was young, I was taught all of that. And I didn't really question it. Because that was what people at home told me. That was what my family told me. I remember when I was younger, I have this cousin who - she went on stage to do background dancing. And I remember hearing my grandmother calling her a slut for doing that, saying that she went there and danced and it was inappropriate. She was being a slut for doing that. And I remember just hearing it and feeling wrong to me, but I never could quite pinpoint why it sounded so wrong, why it sounded so bad. But I just didn't know how to question that because I was so young. And then I remember when I was about 16, 17, I started working in an organisation. And we did a project about sexual reproductive health. And then I started watching a lot of videos on - on SRH, on sexual reproductive health. And then I discovered videos on feminism. And that's when I learned about all of these things like deconstruction about the whole feminist discourse, and I started to kind of like having the glasses taken off of me, the rose tinted glasses. And I started to question why I was taught all these things. Why I just readily accepted them when it was not okay at all. So it's kind of learned - kind of like a learning process for me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And then as soon as you kind of like start learning it, you see it everywhere. You're like, "Hang on. That's the patriarchy. There's the patriarchy. Oh, my goodness."
Catherine Harry
Yeah, I can't - I can't enjoy a lot of movies anymore movies, or shows that I used to love when I was kid. And now, I will just watch them and I would be like, "Wait a minute, this would not pass the Bechdel Test." Or, "Wait a minute. Why - why is there only one woman her and her speaking role is minimum? What is going on?" So I can't enjoy shows anymore.
Hannah Witton
I know. It sucks when that happens. Sometimes you have to just kind of be like, "I'm just going to blindly enjoy this and I'm not going to critique it or think too hard about this." You mentioned watching a bunch of like sex ed videos and stuff. You are now yourself like a feminist video creator, a sexual health educator, in the video world. How did that happen? So what was that kind of like = how did you decide like, "Okay, I'm going to do this?" Like what was - what was that first video that you made?
Catherine Harry
So, this is a funny story because I decided to make my first video in 2017. And I did it on Valentine's Day. I chose Valentine's Day because my topic at the time was about 50 Shades of Grey. So it's kind of like unravelling this whole glorification of Christian Grey, of BDSM when it's actually masqueraded - it's masqueraded as BDSM, but it's actually sexual violence, when it's actually stalking, talking about how if Christian Grey was not handsome and a billionaire, people would not be romanticising this, because this is not what the community is about. The community is about consent, is about informed consent, about safe words, all of that stuff, and 50 Shades of Grey was not that at all. So that was my first video and I angered a lot of people because there was so many people who loved Christian Grey, who did not like that I called him an abuser at all. And that sort of kick started my vlogging career.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Was 50 Shades of Grey popular in Cambodia, then?
Catherine Harry
Yeah, it was quite popular. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Catherine Harry
We have this - we love this trope in Asian drama about how like this macho, alpha male, rich, handsome, who would whisk us off our feet and save us damsels in distress, things like that. It's - it's prominent in Asian drama as well.
Hannah Witton
Okay. Yeah, that's - that storyline's definitely very popular in the in the romance, isn't it. I was gonna ask as well, you make your videos in Khmer? Am I pronouncing that right? The language of Cambodia?
Catherine Harry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And what kind of are some of the most like popular videos that you've made? The ones that like, either loads of people have watched and it's really resonated with folks, or maybe been more controversial? And like, what do you kind of get asked to cover? What's kind of your big requests?
Catherine Harry
So I - so when I was doing - I did a video on the women's code of conduct, deconstructing it, and that got a lot of - that sparked a lot of conversations, because it's a big part of our culture. And I did that back in 2017, which was quite -back then people were not talking about feminism this much. People were not talking about culture, people were not deconstructing the misogynistic parts of our culture. So it was pretty new. There was an uproar, I got a lot of criticisms, I got some support. But then it got to the point where I even got - where even a political party in Cambodia started talking about it. They were quite upset, but then again, they're kinda like the Trump of Cambodia. So I wouldn't take the words a lot, so I would just take what they said with a grain of salt. But then, it sparked a lot of conversation about culture and about the sexism in our culture. The other videos that have done well - one was about anal sex. So surprisingly, a lot of people were curious about anal sex; that got like 5 million views.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Catherine Harry
Another one was about the clitoris. Like, I was quite surprised that people wanted to know about the clitoris. And I hope that - I think that one got about 3 million views - so I hope that at least half of the men who watch that video will now know where the clitoris is.
Hannah Witton
Hopefully. You're doing important work. Definitely. Teaching people about anal sex clitoris, it's very, very, very important.
Catherine Harry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
It's interesting that those are some of the more popular topics because I imagine that like, even if you do get some kind of formal sex education, those are two things that would be potentially left out of any kind of sex ed that you'd have. So it kind of makes sense to me that they would be things that people are kind of like searching on the internet for information for. What is sex education in Cambodia like? Does it exist? Or like, is there any kind of like formal school sex education? Or is it just kind of like, "Go off, and good luck."
Catherine Harry
"And discover!" So I remember when I was in school, when I was in sixth grade, we had some lessons on puberty, on body changes, things like that, and I was very, very excited to learn those lessons, but then when we got to that part, I remember vividly my teacher, who was a male, he said that, "You all know what your body changes are. You live in your body. So there's no need to learn about all these things. We'll just skip the chapters." So I was very disappointed that I didn't even get to learn about puberty.
Hannah Witton
Oh no!
Catherine Harry
Yeah, exactly. And I remember in secondary school, and in high school, there would be organisations going to our classes to teach us about things like vaginal discharge, or how to take care of your vaginal hygiene, things like that. But it was done in like a voluntary basis. So they would only go for an hour or two to do it. It's not like part of the school curriculum. So there was that. And I remember kids being so shy about it, not exactly paying attention, but mostly just like blushing furiously when talking about those topics. And I think that was about the extent of my sex education in school. I think they have a little bit more now in school, but it's still very limited. And even when it's being taught - the very limited amount that is being taught - it's very heteronormative, as well. So it's very traditional. People would talk about like safe sex, pregnancy, but they wouldn't talk about other aspects of it. Not even things like consent, for example, which is a core part of sex education.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. You mentioned that it's heteronormative. What's kind of the situation with like LGBTQ+ rights in Cambodia?
Catherine Harry
So it's getting a little bit better, because I can see that recently, in recent year,0. there are Pride month, people are celebrating Pride month, Pride week, celebrations. There are bars that do drag shows, which is great. It's something that I never saw when I was young. But then there's also discrimination as well, because you know, when social media gives a platform for people to make a difference, to amplify their voice, but at the same time, people on the other side are also getting that platform to amplify their hate. So there's a lot of pushback, there's a lot of backlash. Even - even my video about anal sex was also received with some homophobia by some people. People were saying that, "Oh, gay people, gay men would use oil, like cooking oil." This is their running joke, that they think it's funny, for some reason that gay people use cooking oil to have sex, like dehumanising them, basically. So there's still that kind of thing going on still.
Hannah Witton
Well, homophobia isn't very funny. I mean, it's not funny at all. And I don't get that joke. So still - still not funny.
Catherine Harry
No, not funny at all.
Hannah Witton
I wanted to ask you about your work with MSI Cambodia, which is a reproductive choices organisation. What are the current like laws and accessibility when it comes to abortion, like safe abortions, and like reproductive choices in Cambodia?
Catherine Harry
It's funny you mentioned that because I just resigned last month.
Hannah Witton
Oh!
Catherine Harry
So I'm looking at a new place now, but it's still on abortion. Oh, same thing. Abortion in Cambodia is legal for up to 12 weeks.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Catherine Harry
So you can get an abortion under no - under any condition at all. So as long as you need to have an abortion or you want to have an abortion, if the gestation period is under 12 weeks then you can get it. If it's over 12 weeks, then you can get it under certain circumstances such as if you were raped, if there are health complications to the woman or to the foetus, or if the foetus has an incurable disease. So in situations like that you can still get an abortion when it's over 12 weeks.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I mean, 12 weeks is still quite early, isn't it?
Catherine Harry
It is.
Hannah Witton
Is there like work being done within kind of like these organisations to try and extend that in terms of like being able to get an abortion no questions asked for like longer? So as
Catherine Harry
So as far as I know, MSI, Cambodia is also trying to advocate to push it up to 14 weeks. So the first trimester. So they're trying to inch it a little bit to 14 weeks. But at the same time, I also understand that because in Cambodia the government has been quite relaxed about abortion, as in there's no anti abortion groups. People are not being harassed. So the government is quite - yeah, they're not very against it and because of that, organisations who are working on abortion don't want to kind of push it too far, to the point where it becomes really controversial. So they're trying to do -
Hannah Witton
Rock the boat.
Catherine Harry
Yeah, exactly do it little by little, rather than trying to be all out.
Hannah Witton
That makes a lot of sense because like if you're currently not experiencing any opposition, but you're like, "There's still work to be done," then yeah, doing it in like small bits, like, "No one will notice that we do this. And then hopefully we won't get any pushback."
Catherine Harry
Yeah, that's their strategy.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, I can respect that. That makes sense. I wanted to kind of chat more about like the feminist aspect of a lot of the work you do. You describe yourself as an intersectional feminist? And like, what does that mean to you? And also in a Cambodian context, what are kind of the different intersections of identity that are important for you to take into account when it comes to like the work that you do?
Catherine Harry
So for me being an intersectional feminist basically means that I am advocating for equal rights, equal say, that everyone's voice matters, while also taking into account that everyone comes from different backgrounds, they have different privileges, and those privileges and those disadvantages all intersect. And we need to - when we're looking at feminism, when we're looking at gender equality, or equality in general, we need to take in all those little aspects, because everyone is different. So for example, I, as a middle class, educated woman, heterosexual woman - I don't experience the same kind of discrimination that a, for example, homosexual woman living in the countryside who is not educated or who has a disability is experiencing. So while I want gender equality, while I want equality for all, I need to take into account that, for example, people with disabilities, they have different disadvantages, they have - that I have different privileges, and we need to take those into account as well when we're advocating for this.
In Cambodia, the concept of feminism is very new, because we kind of missed all the movements that were happening in the world. So when the second-wave feminist movement was happening in the 70s, we were - there was a genocide going on in the country. So we kind of missed that. And then after genocide, people - there were a lot of wars going on, there was a civil war, so the country was very unstable for a long period of time. And when there are wars and people are trying to survive - when that happens, people would be putting things like food or shelter or safety at the forefront of their mind, and not exactly civil rights. So because of that, we're so far behind in terms of that, in terms of civil rights movement, compared to the rest of the world. And we're only experiencing - from as far as I can see, we're experiencing a feminist movement in Cambodia very, very recently, I would say, in the past decade, that people or young women are identifying themselves as feminists, rallying for changes, talking about the topic that that are crucial in feminist movement and talking about things like gender-based violence, or victim blaming culture, patriarchy, things like that. So it's still very new in the country.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And you've - like people have said that like you've been westernised because of your feminist views. What's kind of going on there? Like, obviously, like you said that there is like this feminist movement that's kind of like more recent and coming up now. But kind of what's like the general perception of feminism in Cambodia? Is it kind of like, is there a lot of resistance to it? Or - or is it kind of like, "Yes, come. Welcome."
Catherine Harry
So the funny thing is people who have said that I am westernised, and that I am brainwashed by the West idea of feminism tend to be white men.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Catherine Harry
So I remember when I was doing a video on virginity, I had this white men coming into comments saying that I don't understand my own culture because Cambodian women should be docile, Cambodian women should value virginity. Like a white men explaining to me what my culture is.
Hannah Witton
Oh my goodness.
Catherine Harry
And I can kind of see where they're coming from, because men like that, they come to countries like Cambodia, they come to Asia, expecting women to be submissive, expecting women to look at them as these white knight in - literally white knight in shining armours coming to... possibly in a modern way colonise our country even more, in their own sense. So because of that, and then they come to Cambodia, they come to Asia, and they see women like me, who are not taking their shit, who are just not being submissive, who are demanding our rights, who are not looking at them as like these heroes in their own stories. So they're mad, they are upset by that, they think I'm upsetting the status quo that they had in their mind. So they're the ones saying that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I was not expecting that. But now that you say it, it makes a lot of sense, because I imagine that those kinds of like western white men who are pissed off at feminism and feminists, and all they see around them is like the women who that they live among, in whatever country they live in, are feminists and so they go to Asia to be like, "I won't find any feminists there." And then, and then here you are. And yeah. And so they're pissed off.
Catherine Harry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I have no pity for them.
Catherine Harry
There is no pity to be had for people like that.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that is wild. Is - is there any kind of pushback from Cambodian people who like watch your videos or engage with your work? Or is most of it kind of coming from like this western perspective of what they expect from Asian women?
Catherine Harry
So yes, there's also pushback from Cambodian people. A lot of them are men. So men tend to be the ones giving me a lot of backlash for the topics that I do. They're also older people; the older generation is also not super happy about that. But then there are also times that I get backlash from a few women - internalised misogyny and all that, which is really sad to see. But I kind of accept it as what it is, because I understand that when you're trying to make a difference, when you're trying to make a change, you're bound to upset people because you're trying to disrupt the status quo, you're trying to say that things are not okay the way it is right now. And people, especially people who are benefiting from the system, people who are in power, people who have privileges, they are not happy with that because they think that we're taking their rights away from them. So I can kind of understand that. But at the same time, it also proves that there is work to be done, because there is a kind of pushback still.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And like what do you do to kind of look after yourself. I guess, like when you are receiving lots of backlash? And kind of not question - the kind of like, the mission, the path that you're on?
Catherine Harry
So I think self care is very important. And I'm sure you know this as well as a content creator, that sometimes you have the good days, sometimes you have the days when you just hold on to one negative common for life. Like you can get 100 positive comments but then if you're having a bad day, you can just - your mind is just fixated on that one negative comment and it's really bad for your mental health. Sometimes you can feel burned out because being in the public's eyes, being scrutinised, being criticised for everything that you do, it can be very exhausting. So self care is always something that I put at the forefront of my mind. I don't read the comments if I don't have to. If I know that a video is going to be particularly controversial, I don't go into the comment section for the sake of my mental health. I would have a friend go through the comments for me and tell me what people are saying instead. And she would be filtering what people saying, as in giving me the gist of it rather than giving me the cursing and all the name calling that people are actually saying. So that helps.
Having a support system is also important. I surround myself with just a few people who are really supportive, people who really care about me, people who I can turn to when I am doubting myself, when I'm wondering why the hell I'm putting myself out there to be hated by people. But it really helps. I try to stay away from social media when I don't have to be on social media. So for example, on the weekends, I wouldn't be on social media much, I wouldn't be answering a lot of messages, especially work messages. I would just keep them for weekdays. I tried to give time for myself, when it's the evening, I have to log out and log out, I don't put - I would spend time with my dogs, I would do other stuff in the house rather than just being consumed by social media, because I understand that my work is is there but sometimes it's so hard to separate yourself from your identity as a content creator. You start to associate your value and your worth, as a content creator, as how many people like you how many likes you get how many views you get. And that can be very destructive for your mental health.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no. Definitely. I can, I can relate. I was wondering what are some of the most common like questions that you get when people are asking for advice?
Catherine Harry
Emergency contraception.
Hannah Witton
Oh really?
Catherine Harry
So I would get young people - yeah, I would get young people messaging me all the time saying that, "oh, I had unprotected sex" or "I did this and that and I think I might be pregnant, or I'm worried that I might be pregnant, what should I do? Can I get emergency contraception? How long is it effective for?" So I get a lot of questions like that. And I also get - another question that I get is men asking me how to last longer in bed. So for some reason, that comes up a lot, like very, very often.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Is that something that you've made a video about? Or want to? Or you're just like, "This is not an area that I can be bothered to talk about?"
Catherine Harry
I've made a video about that. Yeah, I did. I did.
Hannah Witton
There you go. So when you get asked that question, you could just be like, "Here, watch this."
Catherine Harry
Just send the link.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. It's like, "Here you go." We've got a bunch of questions from folks who follow the podcast on Instagram, and also some of our patrons. Somebody asked: does religion influence sexuality and sex education in East Asia? Or Cambodia, specifically, if you don't want to talk about East Asia generally?
Catherine Harry
So let's talk about Cambodia, specifically. Religion in Cambodia, it's not something that is as aggressive, I would say, or as strong compared to other countries, for example. We - even when talking about abortion, some people would say that it's murder or it's sinful, but people are not exactly using religion as like this attacking point as much as they are using culture. So for Cambodians, when people are trying to oppress women, when people are trying to use shame as a tactic to oppress women, to control women, we use it from the angle of culture rather than from religion. So Cambodia is a Buddhist country, and there's not a lot to be said about sex education, about things like that. So I don't think there was anything said about premarital sex, or those topics. So we would - people would use the culture angle as an attacking point instead.
Hannah Witton
So another person has asked: how does accessing sexual health services work? Is obtaining contraceptives easy/free?
Catherine Harry
No, it's not free. Contraception - people access it, people can buy contraceptive pills over the counter. So they would - there are certain contraceptive pills that are very, very cheap. It's like $1 per packet. But there're also expensive one, so it depends on what people choose. People can also go to clinics, like MSI clinics, to get implant, to get IUD, but it's not free. But compared to other countries, like in America, for example, it's relatively cheap, you can get an IUD for about $8 to $10 $15 at most. So it's pretty cheap. But still, I understand that for many people being cheap on that is relative when you're looking at it from that perspective, because -
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Catherine Harry
- social economic backgrounds and all that. But I think it's still kind of affordable and if they have the - it's called NSSF, national security, social security funds, if they have that from their workplace, from the organisations or companies, then they can also have it compensated as well.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Catherine Harry
So access is not extremely difficult, but if - but then again, if you're living in the rural countryside, if you're living far away from town, from any health clinics or health centres, and it's going to be a little bit more difficult.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Is there a bigger population that are rural than in cities and towns in Cambodia, or are most people kind of like living in cities?
Catherine Harry
I think people - so because we only have one. So the capital is the biggest city that most people would flock to. It's pretty crowded. I think we have like 2/3 million people, but they're also the majority of people. So the rest of the 16 million people are also living in the countryside. So yeah, it's quite a big population in the rural country. Um, yeah, I think it's still - the thing with with access to contraception is that it's not the access to the health centre itself that is the biggest problem. I would say that the biggest problem is the misconceptions and the myths that people have, because people will think that if you use contraceptive methods, then you're going to be infertile, you're not going to have any more children in the future. Or they have different misconceptions that are being - rumours are being spread. Because of that, it prevents them from actually accessing it, even though they have the means to actually get it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So like, a big part of it is like the education piece.
Catherine Harry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that makes sense. Someone asked: how do you see youth in Cambodia changing relationship and sexuality norms? What's Cambodia's Gen Z up to?
Catherine Harry
Oh, I would say that Gen Z or young people in general they are - because they have access to social media, they also have access to information from other countries around the world. So we are talking about all these social classes, we're talking about all these liberations, people are talking about dating, premarital sex, which was something that was like a big no no's when I was young, looking at my cousins or looking at my older family members. So people are talking about all these things now about dating, about dating apps, for example. I know that people are using apps like Tinder or Grindr to meet up. It's becoming less of a taboo in Cambodia to date and to live together before getting married. But less of a taboo doesn't mean that it's normalised yet. It's still stigmatised somewhat, depending on your circle of friends and family, but in general, if you're living in the city, if you have progressive family, or if you are educated, if you live in a certain household or have certain circles of friends, then it's becoming normalised, that kind of westernised - but I wouldn't even really call it westernised kind of relationship. Kind of lifestyle.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, don't. Let's, let's not call it westernised, because -
Catherine Harry
It's really not.
Hannah Witton
- often a lot of places that the West colonised had all of that stuff before.
Catherine Harry
Yeah, exactly. That's, that's the thing that I keep telling people. They would say that - so here's the thing about colonisation. Before the French came to colonise Cambodia, we were a pretty progressive country. Women were allowed to go topless, for example, and no one batted an eye about it. But then the French came, and they brought in the conservative ideas like not showing ankles, or they were branding as like savages or backwards for showing our body. And then when they left, we just sort of took it upon ourselves to think that that the culture that they brought in was our culture when it's actually not. It was the colonisers' culture, but then we somehow forgot that it wasn't ours to begin with.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah. And you see that like all over the world?
Catherine Harry
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
And it truly sucks.
Catherine Harry
It really does.
Hannah Witton
And on behalf of -no, unfortunately, I can't apologise on behalf of all colonisers, but I can try to. This was an interesting question that we had come in. Somebody asked: queer family travel in Southeast Asia? So I guess like, if you're a queer family, and you want to go travelling, you're a tourist in Southeast Asia, is there anything that they should be aware of in terms of kind of like their rights and like especially if it's like two mums or two dads and they're travelling with kids and, you know, all of that?
Catherine Harry
The thing is, I don't want to make this a race issue, but from what I can see if you are white, then people regard you differently. People would be more tolerant of you and your lifestyle by just saying that, "Oh, they are western people or they have the certain lifestyle, we should just accept them." If you have different skin colours, or if you are not white, basically, for example, if you are - so this is discrimination against a few of our neighbouring countries and sometimes people would look at them, for example, the Vietnamese. So, for example, if you are a Vietnamese couple, same sex couple, then you would face more discrimination compared to other ethnicities, just because there is already existing discrimination against the Vietnamese people. So it really depends on who you are. But in general, I would say that - so we don't have any law against LGBTQ+ here. It's pretty casual. So I will say that you're fine. You're good to go.
Hannah Witton
If you're white.
Catherine Harry
That wasn't a very useful tip.
Hannah Witton
No, but that's, that's good to know. I guess, even if it's not like, obviously, the ideal situation. Yeah. Cath, thank you so much. This has just been absolutely wonderful to chat with you all about the work that you do and like all of your experiences and stuff. Where can people find your work and your videos online?
Catherine Harry
So you can find me on Facebook, on YouTube, and Tiktok @adoseofcath, and also on Instagram and Twitter as well. So basically, all social media platforms. I also have a podcast. I have two podcasts, actually. One is called Chit Chat with Kit Cath. And the other one is called Feminists Say What so the second one is more about feminist issues, a bit heavier, but Chit chat with Kit Cath is more about sex education. So I kind of separate those. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Okay, nice. Yeah, definitely go and check those out. Thank you so much. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye.
Catherine Harry
Bye.