Gender Diversity in Art and Trans Rights in Germany with Louie Läuger | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton. This week I'm joined by the brilliant illustrator and author Louie Läuger, aka @tenderrebellions on Instagram. Louie and I actually worked together on Sexy Scribbles in 2021, which was this stunning and diverse, sexy, sex positive illustrations colouring pages for my newsletter. And Louie actually recently released that own book called Rethinking Gender. And so I wanted to get Louie onto the podcast to talk all about their work and queer art.
Louie is from Germany, and we spoke about how the German language only has one word for gender and sex, and how constrictive that is for talking about gender identity and gender expression. We also discussed the complexity of having gendered nouns in a language like German, and trying to become creative to find ways to create new gender neutral terms instead. Louie talked about their own experience exploring their gender identity and all about their book Rethinking Gender and how the inspiration behind creating the book came from the desire to educate and create conversations about gender for people who have little previous understanding and experience of gender diversity. We had a really interesting discussion about how to create gender diversity in art without falling into tropes of what non binary or trans people look like. And Louie shared some ways that they do this, as well as how art and creativity can be used in sex education.
Louie also talked about trans rights in Germany, and the misconception that Germany is a progressive place, when actually there is still a lot of transphobia, and very few rights and recognition for non binary people. Louie also shared a wonderful example of the most creative way they've heard someone express their gender, as well as advice on how to feel confident in your own enby expression and appearance. I really enjoyed this chat and hearing how Louie and other non binary and gender diverse people in Germany use creativity to come up with a new kind of language to express themselves.
And as usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes over at doingitpodcast.co.uk, where you can also find transcripts. And please let us know what you think over on our Instagram @doingitpodcast. If you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify; it is really appreciated.
And this was teased last year with like one special episode, but now you're getting more bonus Patreon episodes of this little show that we like to call So... How Was That for You, where essentially after recording the main interview with our guests, me and my producer Mia hop on a call and chat about the things that came up for us, what we thought about it, and also just give you a little insights into the behind the scenes of making the podcast including lots of technical difficulty frustrations. So you can head over to patreon.com/hannahwitton to listen to the debrief of this episode, So... How Was That for You?
And also, as I mentioned, I worked with Louie on Sexy Scribbles. And there is in fact, a digital ebook colouring book of the Sexy Scribbles that Louis created for me and my newsletter subscribers that is up on my website that you can purchase if you so wish. So there's all of my plugging over. Without further ado, here is my chat with the wonderful Louie Läuger.
Louie, welcome to Doing It! How are you? It's really lovely to see your face again.
Louie Läuger
Thank you, Hannah. Thanks for having me. I'm - I'm good. Excited about my new book. About teaching. Lots of things are happening.
Hannah Witton
Yeah! I'm excited to talk about it all. For those of you don't know, Louie and I worked together for like a whole year on Sexy Scribbles, which was the like sex positive colouring in pages for my newsletter. And yeah, you have a book out now called Rethinking Gender. And so absolutely wanted to get you on the podcast to really deep dive into gender. I'm so excited. I think let's just like start really, really broad, and we'll see what happens. But in your own words: what even is gender?
Louie Läuger
Oh, geez. I find that so hard to answer. And I think maybe for context, I'm - my first language is German. And in German we only have one word for gender and sex. And for gender roles and gender identity. It's all the same word.
Hannah Witton
I learned so much from you about German. Like one of my favourite things that you mentioned to me once was that the German word for like International Women's Day was like feminist fight day or something. Love it. Okay, so do you have a word for like gender expression? Or is it - is that also just like all lumped into one?
Louie Läuger
No, for that we have a word. But like gender and sex is the same word. So that's how I started diving into the book, like separating the two and being like, "Hey, in English, we have this really cool separation between gender and sex. And maybe we need to figure that out first. Because once you start deconstructing the social construct of gender roles, you also come to realise, huh, sex is kind of also a construct, like, these two categories, we made them up." So that's also gender, and like, gender is so, so, so complex, and I am finding it very hard to find a definition.
Hannah Witton
We don't have to. We don't have to solve gender today.
Louie Läuger
Good. That takes some weight off my shoulders. No pressure.
Hannah Witton
That's fascinating then, so kind of - I'm curious, in kind of like activist like feminist and trans circles in Germany, how do you have conversations about all of these different aspects of like gender and sex? Like, is there language - new language that young people have been creating? Or is there just like a little wink wink nudge, you know which one you mean? Like that?
Louie Läuger
We're doing a combination of English and German a lot. Where we just start using the word gender instead of the German word for gender when we talk about the social construct, and when we use the German word, often people are thinking about biology. Right?
Hannah Witton
Right. What is the German word?
Louie Läuger
Geschlecht.
Hannah Witton
Deslekt.
Louie Läuger
Geschlecht
Hannah Witton
Geschlecht?
Louie Läuger
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I recently got my German citizenship. So I should do better.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, I read about that in your newsletter.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. I actually do have lots more questions about Germany and like trans rights and things. But first: your book. Can you tell us a little bit about it, how it came to be, what it's about, who it's for?
Louie Läuger
It came to be because I studied at the University of Applied Sciences. So you don't - as your final project, you don't just write a scientific paper, you do like a proper project. And I decided I want to - I did that in my in my bachelor's degree also, just like, casually writing a book as a thesis project. And then I started doing that again for my master's. That's like the context in which it happened, which I was very fortunate and so privileged to be able to do. And it started because in my first book, which is only available in German, I'm sorry - I used some German phrases to describe like female-assumed people versus people with vulvas versus people who maybe grew up learning about traditional girl values, like how you should be as a person in this world. And people came to my readings and came on my Instagram and were like, "Why aren't you just saying women, because you're obviously talking about people with vulvas?" And I'm like, "Mmm, not the same." And that kind of was the starting point of - obviously, people in trans circles and feminist circles and queer communities already have this basic knowledge. But there are so many more people who don't. And often, I think we have some fears of approaching social justice issues. Because, like, "Oh, if I don't know, then people will get mad," which. I can relate to that. And like, sometimes you can feel like people are very harsh online if you make mistakes, or, you know, people are like, "How do you not know this?" Like, "This is transphobic." Which, maybe it is but -
Hannah Witton
Everyone's coming at it from such different places and backgrounds. Yeah, and there's a level of like, "Hey, if you don't know this, like, that's fine, but here, now, now you can know it. Isn't that wonderful?"
Louie Läuger
Yeah. And that was really my starting point of realising, oh, there are so many people who don't know, and they kind of resonate with my work, because I'm trying to explain it in a very calm, chill, take your time, have a cookie, we'll figure this out. Like, that's kind of the way I'm trying to work. And that was the starting point for the book. So the audience, in my mind, is people who are maybe friends or family of queer people who are interested in learning about gender and just don't know yet. The reality often is that people who are already quite knowledgeable about gender read it, think it's very good, and then gift it to their parents or co workers or whatever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's true. Because I imagine like the people who are following you online, are like pretty switched on to it. And they'll be like the first people who read it, but like you said, like then hopefully, it will, like, spread far and far and wide. On like, a personal note, like, how did you come to understand your own gender? What was that journey like for you? You kind of mentioned at the beginning about diving into the language being like a starting point for you.
Louie Läuger
Hoo, yeah, that's, that's a big one. For those who don't know, I'm non binary. And making that book, that kind of was the second starting point for me, because I went on my own little journey with gender and my own gender identity. And I was like, "Okay, I really - I have a lot of questions, and I don't have that many answers. And I want to find out." And what I did, in the process of creating my book Rethinking Gender was to reach out to loads of people on social media and was like, "Hey, can you write me a quick statement what your gender identity means to you? I would love to feature that in the book." Just because I was curious, like, what do I resonate with? And I think that's, yeah, that's been the kind of my journey with queerness in general, like figuring out what else is there. Because when I was growing up, the only words that I knew were straight and gay. That's it. "These are your options." Yeah, figuring out new words, and figuring out more language, more examples of things you can name, the more I became confident in who I am and how I want to describe myself, if that makes sense.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it does, especially like the gathering of people's stories and their own descriptions of their gender as well, because I - especially like online, I feel like, you see somebody else talking about their experience and their perspective and oftentimes, there'll be somebody listening, there'll be somebody watching, like, that's like, "Oh, my God, wait." Like, then something clicks for them. Like, "Wait, that's me." Like - like, having sometimes having somebody else put it into words for you. And also like, the fact that you're gathering all of these different experiences. It's kind of like you can be like, "Ooh, but a bit of that actually like resonates and then like, not that. But like a bit of that, that one also like resonates." Yeah. I love that.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, I love language for that. I think it's such a great - it can be such a great tool for empowerment. Yeah. And every time some conservatives are like, "Where are these all new labels coming from? We don't need them." Yes, we do. Thank you very much.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, on the language thing then: in German, is it - are nouns gendered? Yeah? it's one of - it's one of those languages.
Louie Läuger
It's one of those languages. Yeah.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So yeah, I'm always curious to ask this of like languages that do have like, gendered nouns. And then also like when you're talking about like a group of people in plural it like defaults to it being like a group of men. And then also not having a singular "they" in the way that we do in English. So yeah, I'm curious like what kind of solutions are there in the German language for kind of like being trans inclusive in that way?
Louie Läuger
There are - there are solutions. I don't know how much of a deep dive into German grammar you want.
Hannah Witton
Well, what - what are your pronouns in German?
Louie Läuger
In German I don't use any pronouns.
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay. How does that work grammatically? Or do people just say Louie?
Louie Läuger
Yeah, people just use my name. It sounds a bit like you're obsessed with the person in the beginning, which I don't mind.
Hannah Witton
I understand that because I did this like course - I don't know, what was it - set of workshops, and there was somebody there who was called Sam, and Sam's pronouns were "Sam". And it takes a lot of getting used to, to insert a name instead of pronouns, because obviously, that's the point of pronouns, it's to replace having to say somebody's name over and over again. But that's great. Yeah, it would sound like people would be obsessed with you,
Louie Läuger
You get used to it quite quickly. And you figure out how to structure your sentences so you don't have to use the name over and over again, like it does work. It's just a matter of practice, I think. And with with words, like for example, students, "the student" would be der Student. And then we have die Studenten, with the male and female. And traditionally, it was die Studenten in the plural, like the masculine form for the plural and then they came up with, "Oh, let's make it die Student*innen then. Which is like a gender inclusive way of saying it. Like some words function that way, then you can just like use the verb that's going with the noun and turn the verb into a noun, that's sort of the explanation. Some nouns don't work like that. And then you have something like, die Student*innen because if you have a group of only female students, then it will be die Student*innen versus die Studenten. And you can mix them together with a little pause between? And like that's - it's actually a super interesting question. Because in the written language, there's like a - what's it called. The little star symbol?
Hannah Witton
The asterix.
Louie Läuger
The asterix, you put that in between as a symbol for -
Louie Läuger
Oh, like any ending.
Louie Läuger
As a symbol for - well, in the written language, we have the male and the female, but there is also many more genders. And they are all in the asterix.
Hannah Witton
Okay. Yeah, I think I've seen the asterix used when you've got the beginning of a word that can have many endings, and you're kind of just like not fussy about which one you're going for. So you just put the star there, and it's just like, "This and... and everything."
Louie Läuger
We do that with trans.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Louie Läuger
Trans with the asterix, transgender, transsexual, trans... whatever.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, definitely seen that in that context. And do you know what, this is making me think that people whose like first language is English, like the people who are resistant to using "they" in the singular for people like they've got, they've got an easy time. Like, get on board, like, it's not that hard, like try being German.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, really. We have like - we have whole interviews with people who studied language about how to do it. We have a massive debate on how we can still include people with learning disabilities or with visual impairments. Because these gender neutral terms with the asterix, it's not very easy for the screen readers.
Hannah Witton
Right. Okay.
Louie Läuger
It's making it harder to read the whole text, like, how do we solve all these problems? Like... I don't know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's so interesting. I mean, yeah, fair enough. Like I - one of the things that I really enjoy is the fact that there's still all these questions, but that they are coming from a place of like how do we make this as inclusive as possible. I want to talk about like art and stuff, because you are an artiste. Or artist - artiste, that's more of a flavour of how I'm saying that. Because I remember when we were working on Sexy Scribbles, obviously, we wanted to make those pages as a whole, not necessarily every single individual one, but as a whole, like as inclusive of different identities and abilities as possible. And that was a lot of, we had a lot of conversations about that. And I remember one of them being about like how do we represent different genders in art without kind of - because you want that visual representation, you want like different sexual orientations and genders to be visible, like that's what we wanted. But like, how do you do that without being tropey? Like, we could just have like a person, you know, on the page that looks super femme, who looks like me, right? But they're actually non binary. How do you represent that? And yeah, I'm curious if that's something that, I don't know, have you figured out answers to that yet? Or is it just something that you're always battling with when you're like making art and stuff?
Louie Läuger
Always battling with it. I mean, there are some answers. The first and obvious one maybe is like use the flags like I have that situation, that specific situation, right now with client work, where I illustrated a very femme presenting person, and we put the non binary flag on her t-shirt so people realise, but obviously that's not working with the colouring book. Because could be any flag, we don't know.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Pick your colours!
Louie Läuger
In online spaces, image descriptions help a lot like -
Hannah Witton
Oh yeah, okay.
Louie Läuger
- we should anyway do image descriptions just because it's more inclusive. But if you have an image description anyway, you can put the identity in there. Some things are just subtle hints. Like when I try to represent trans women, I sometimes include like a shadow of a beard, or wider shoulders like trying to hint at, hey, you could read this person as trans without like slapping it in somebody's face because that's also, yeah, not always what we need or want. But I find it incredibly difficult because usually illustration is quite - I don't know, you have your own style to a point, you kind of take something and you put it into a more abstract version. Like my style isn't realistic paintings. And I think the more abstract you go...
Hannah Witton
Yeah, yeah, because the body shapes and sizes of your illustrations are not what humans look like.
Louie Läuger
No, they are not. The more abstract you go, the more difficult it gets, I guess, to represent these details you usually would pick up on in real life.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I like the tip about the image descriptions. Like that's a nice - obviously, it's like all kind of like up for discussion, but then also like a little practical tip, folks. I'm curious when it when it comes to like art and creativity as well, when it comes to sex ed - like how - in what ways have you seen some really good forms of like creative sex ed? Or like art in sex ed?
Louie Läuger
I think it's only now sort of like only in recent years starting to become really good and inclusive, which I - bothers me. It bothers me a lot. Because like when we talk about learning, like it's so easy to learn through visual representation. Like that's kind of accepted when we teach kids anything, like we give them picture books. And also in adult learning with like language learning, we usually use pictures because we know it's easier to memorise the new word for house, for example, when we see a house illustrated to it. So why not take that, like - why not take that concept of I have some knowledge and I illustrate in a way that makes it less scary, more fun to engage with, and easier to remember. Like, let's take that concept and apply it to other things we will need to learn. I think that's really cool that this is happening now. And recently, I've seen things like obviously the... what's it called? The person from your welcome collab on Instagram? They have like a vulva... memory?
Louie Läuger
Yeah, exactly like that's for example, something that I think is really cool. I came across like an illustrated sort of like a paper doll version, but it has magnets on it. And then you can put different aspects of gender on that paper doll and play around with hey, maybe there is not like - you just need one paper doll and you can with a magnet put a penis in it or a vulva or intersex genitals or clothes or whatever you want to and play around with that.
Hannah Witton
Hilde, the Vulva Gallery.
Hannah Witton
Mix and match.
Louie Läuger
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
That reminds me, I think someone bought Rowan like a book like that - it won't be for until he's older because it's got so many little pieces in it, but it's the same, it's like people, magnets, and then they have clothes that are magnets as well. But the people themselves and then the clothes that are available are clearly super gendered. But obviously because you are playing god, you are playing like I get to pick what you're wearing, you can get creative and like do what you want with it.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, recently I saw something where it was like these big cards that usually often are for for kids, where it's just one card with like a car and there's "car" underneath it to learn new words. And somebody published a set of sex education in an inclusive language, like an easy language for people with learning disabilities with illustrations on top, so it's like, easy to understand what are these different concepts that sometimes have complicated words.
Hannah Witton
Oh, wow. Okay, so if there was a card that was for gender, what's the image to go with that? What would be your image to go with it?
Louie Läuger
Well, I think I wouldn't, I wouldn't do one card for gender. I would do one card for sex. I would do one card for gender identity, one for gender role. One for gender expression. I think.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. No, fair enough. Break it down. Let's get specific. Um, would you say that there is something like inherently creative about being trans or non binary?
Louie Läuger
Oh, that's so interesting. I never thought about it that way.
Hannah Witton
Maybe because it's not intentional, because it's just like who you are. But then it just happens to be playing with gender creatively. I don't know.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, I don't - I don't know. Like, all my genderqueer, trans, non binary friends are all kind of artsy. But I'm wondering if that's because they are queer, or because I'm an artist and surrounded myself with other creative type people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I mean, I wonder what that Venn diagram is of like queer and trans and artists?
Louie Läuger
I don't know. I don't - I want to say yes, there is something very creative about being non binary. But also, I feel like I'm in no way in a position to speak for the entire non binary community. And I'm sure -
Hannah Witton
That could be how, if it's for you, you know -
Louie Läuger
I'm sure there are non binary people out there who don't feel like creative people. So shout out to the non creative non binary folks out there.
Hannah Witton
Shout out to the non binary accountants and scientists. Not that - not that you can't get creative in those fields.
Louie Läuger
I can't imagine a non binary accountant.
Hannah Witton
I mean, if you're listening, let us know. Let us know. Amazing. I'm going to do - like going back again to Germany, because obviously I just - it's on my mind, what can I say? But what is like the situation in Germany when it comes to like trans rights? Is non binary a recognised gender? Like, is it something you can get on your passport over there? What's the sitch?
Louie Läuger
Um, it's complicated. We, for the last 16 years, had Merkel as a chancellor, and she came from the Conservative Party. So obviously, for the last 16 years, progress has been really really slow.
Hannah Witton
She was a conservative?
Louie Läuger
Yeah.
Hannah Witton
I had no idea.
Louie Läuger
Yeah. Like she, in one interview where it was about marriage equality, her reason for not bringing marriage equality into parliament and making new laws was, "Just doesn't doesn't feel right in my gut." That was her reasoning.
Hannah Witton
Wow. And your gut feelings should impact an entire country. Makes sense. That's so interesting to me because like, I mean, obviously, I've not paid like detailed attention to German politics, but just like, from the brief bits I get, she's kind of like, I don't know, just like seen as a really amazing leader over here. Like, people are like, "Yes! Angela!"
Louie Läuger
I mean, she's - she's consistent compared to what you get in the UK with, like, 44 days Prime Minister?
Hannah Witton
Oh my god. Yeah. Brutal. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that she came from the conservatives.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, she came from the conservatives. And now we have a new government. And they promised us to get some new trans legislation on the way which they said would be coming next summer. So fingers crossed for that.
Hannah Witton
What would that be changing or doing?
Louie Läuger
Everything basically. Right now we have one, one law that's already ruled by like the highest court in Germany to be like, illegal. Like, so many aspects of that law are not applied anymore. In its original form, it forced trans people to get divorced, get sterilised, like do all these things before having access to a legal gender and name change.
Hannah Witton
Woah.
Louie Läuger
Right now, it's so forces you to get two evaluations by psychologists and then go to court, which is something you have to pay for yourself. So that's that like super expensive. And they want to get rid of that and get some type of self determination going.
Hannah Witton
Roght. Okay. Yeah, so it's similar to like the self ID conversation that's been happening in the UK, which didn't go through. Damn Tories
Louie Läuger
Yeah, that's for like binary trans people and non binary people have pretty much zero recognition. We have legal recognition for intersex people. We have a legal third gender. But the law is intended for only intersex people. Some non binary people found loopholes to like sneak in there and get a third gender into their passport. But it is, yeah, it is not the best situation in Germany.
Hannah Witton
Right. I mean, so the UK is being called TERF Island recently. Terrible. But is there kind of like a similar hostility towards trans people in Germany? Or is it - what's - you know, well, what are your journalists like over there? Because that tends to be the main issue here.
Louie Läuger
Well, there's one left wing newspaper that recently published two very anti trans essays or something, I don't know. I think hugely depends on where you are living. In the city where I'm currently living, we have a very loud TERF bubble. Also like mostly men who identify themselves as left men, which I find very concerning, because like, I expect that stuff from conservatives, I expect that stuff from our right party, like, that's where I know like I don't even need to bother with talking with them. But it is something debated in left wing circles as well, which I find a bit troubling,
Hannah Witton
Yeah, no, fair enough. Right, we've got some questions from folks on Instagram. Somebody has asked you: what is the most creative way you've heard or seen someone describe their gender?
Louie Läuger
There was one quote stuck in my head from a person who is also featured in Rethinking Gender. And they describe - like, when they try to explain it, they were like, you can imagine different genders as different colours, and you are used to thinking of blue and pink as like male and female, and their gender is yellow. And that just - maybe because I'm a visual person, it just stuck with me. Because I, yes. I think I'm teal, somehow that feels right.
Hannah Witton
I like that, yeah.
Louie Läuger
Like, we constantly say, like gender is a spectrum and having that visualisation is kind of cool.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I think I saw a TikTok, and I'm not gonna be able to find it because I have no idea who it was from and it was ages ago. And this person was saying, like, so if we start with that like Mars is men or manhood or whatever, and then Venus is women or womanhood, then you've got people who like live on those planets. And then you've got people who are like orbiting those planets in terms of their rela-
Louie Läuger
And then you have people who exist on Pluto.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. You got people just like - or maybe you're like an asteroid or a comet that just like whooshes past it briefly. And then's like, "Ah, nah, bye."
Louie Läuger
Yeah, like having how many maps like that too. Make that
Hannah Witton
I really liked that one, because I really liked the sense of like, your, your relationship to like gender, whether that's like manhood or womanhood or whatever it is. And then the kind of like, I just, I don't know, something about the orbiting, like, the metaphor, I just love it. It's just like, "I'm just orbiting it. Like, I can kind of see it. I can smell it. I don't want to - I don't want to land. I don't want to - I don't my feet to touch it."
Louie Läuger
But it could. It could if I wanted to.
Hannah Witton
"It could if I wanted to, I love the view from up here. The gravitational pull is having some impact, but like, not enough to drag me in." Yeah, that was one of my favourites that I've seen. I would love to, maybe we'll have to get listeners to send in some of their like creative ways that they've heard people describe their gender. That'd be amazing. Somebody has asked: how to look like an enby alien and not give a fuck about people's opinion of your looks?
Louie Läuger
That's - that's a tough one I'm currently reading In Their Shoes.
Hannah Witton
Ooh, Jamie!
Louie Läuger
Yes, by Jamie... forgot the last name.
Hannah Witton
Windust, I think.
Louie Läuger
And in the beginning, they talk about that experience of for the first time ever putting on that fur coat and feeling super nonbinary and confident being like, "Oh my gosh, yes, I love this, this is expressing who I am." And then going to school and everybody is mocking them. And having that really torn relationship between that's how I want to express myself, and that's who I am and that makes me feel good. And on the other hand, having people not be very kind about it. The way I'm going about my expression personally, is to surround myself with people who are very supportive, and who don't make strange comments or give me weird looks or like I can share my insecurities with and I'm like, "Oh, I wish I could try out wearing this piece of clothing or wear this makeup, but I'm super insecure about it." And then having them support me and them just being like, "Hey, do you want to try that? And we go out together? And like, I'll take your hand and I'll be here for you." Like, I think my my social support network is really, like it means a lot to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. So you need your like alien cheerleaders who are going to celebrate your enby alienness?
Louie Läuger
Yeah, I guess - I guess it's okay to rely on them. Like sometimes I feel it. And I'm like, "Yes, I'm confident today, I can wear whatever I want. I don't care. If somebody is shouting at me in the street. I will just-" Well, I've never like flipped my middle finger. But I sometimes imagine doing it. Like, I have days like that. And then there are days where it's just like, "I need a little bit of help today."
Hannah Witton
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Louie Läuger
No, not at all.
Hannah Witton
Somebody has asked: how to stop questioning if being NB is even a thing?
Louie Läuger
If you find out let me know.
Hannah Witton
Oh!
Louie Läuger
Well, I, again, like the same with with the expression. There are days where I'm more confident and there are definitely days where I'm like, "Am I imagining this? Am I just making things up? Is this all in my head?"
Hannah Witton
Well, if you are there's a lot of other people doing the same thing. So it must be real, surely.
Louie Läuger
Also, if I am, does it matter? That's why I always like calm myself down, where I get to a point where I'm getting really insecure and I'm like, "What, what, what is happening?" And I'm like, "It doesn't really matter. I feel confident." Like I feel the most comfortable when I describe myself as non binary. Like, it just feels natural and good. And if I'm imagining the existence of non binary people, but it makes me feel good and makes other people feel good, then...
Hannah Witton
Yes.
Louie Läuger
Cool!
Hannah Witton
And to that, aren't we all imagining that men and women are also real? So.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, I mean you can go into really deep rabbit hole with that one.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Why not.
Louie Läuger
I think for non binary people, it's sometimes tied to the feeling of not being trans enough. Like, I know so many people who don't want to go on like hormone replacement therapy, but do want to have top surgery, for example. And the German health insurance system doesn't even allow that. Like they have one idea of what it means to be trans. And if you want your top surgery to be covered by health insurance, you have to be on testosterone first.
Hannah Witton
Wow. Okay, so it's like you get your trans package, and you can't pick and choose, you have to like sign up for the whole thing.
Louie Läuger
Yeah, you can be trans like 100% or not at all.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Louie Läuger
And there is no grey zone. And me and a lot of other non binary people are existing in the spaces between I guess. And there are so many messaging from the outside from health insurance, from being misgendered, from people perceiving me every single day as a woman, like that's so much coming in from the outside that it's sometimes like, "What is happening? Is it -"
Hannah Witton
"Is it all in my head?" Yeah.
Louie Läuger
Yeah. And again, I think the social support network with that one is really important with like having having people around me who are also non binary, who I can share my insecurities with, who are really gender affirming friendships. That's like so important to me.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. 100%. On that lovely note, Louie, thank you so much. And would you please plug away all of your stuff, like your Instagram, your art, your book, please tell us where we can find all of that good stuff.
Louie Läuger
You can find me on Instagram with @tenderrebellions. My book is called Rethinking Gender and was published by MIT Press. In German, It's called Gender-Kram, and was published by Unrast Verlag. And you will find all those links in my Insta bio. So I think Insta instead is really the place to find me.
Hannah Witton
Nice. What does the title of your book mean in German?
Louie Läuger
You could translate it to gender stuff.
Hannah Witton
Okay. Yeah.
Louie Läuger
Like that, it's kind of about reclaiming that when conservative people are in that mood of, "Oh, those young people talking about gender again." You know the vibe? Like, not taking - very dismissive. And that's the word like in German, a lot of people say are those youngsters again with their gender stuff.
Hannah Witton
Right. Okay. Yeah. Got it. Oh, I like that. Reclaiming. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Louis. And thank you all for listening. Goodbye.