Indigenous, Queer and Trans Identity in Navajo Nation with Charlie Amáyá Scott | Transcript
Find the episode shownotes here!
CW: mention of abortion
Hannah Witton
Hi everyone, welcome back to Doing It, the sex and relationships podcast where sex has never been so nerdy, with me, your host, Hannah Witton.
I am super excited to tell you about my guest this week, Charlie Amáyá Scott is a Diné scholar born and raised within the central part of the Navajo Nation. Charlie reflects analyses and critiques what it means to be queer, trans, and Diné in the 21st century on their personal blog, dineaesthetics.com, while inspiring Indigenous joy and justice to thousands on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. They are a doctoral candidate in higher education at the University of Denver with their research interests on the intricacies of settler colonialism, social media, and higher education and their English pronouns are they/them and she/her. I really wanted to get Charlie on the podcast as we've not had a North American Indigenous voice on the podcast before and I wanted to speak to Charlie about how their identities of being queer, trans, and Diné all intersect.
In this episode, you'll hear from Charlie about growing up in Navajo Nation, how she didn't realise she was a minority until she left to go to college. We also spoke about exploring her queer and trans identity as an Indigenous person, misconceptions that Navajo Nation is very inclusive of queer and gender diverse people, but also the impact settler colonialism has had on this. Charlie told me about what Two Spirit identity is, how it is not the same as trans or non binary, and why Two Spirit is a specific identity to Indigenous cultures in North America. Charlie talks about how connecting to their personal identity has come hand in hand with understanding the impact of colonialism on Navajo and Indigenous identity and freedom.
We talked about Charlie's work to connect with and support other queer and trans indigenous people, the importance of celebrating their people and honouring their ancestry, but also forging how they want to be and the life they want for themselves and for Indigenous people moving forwards. We also spoke about the accessibility for Indigenous people and people in Navajo Nation to sexual health care, and the impact of the overturning of Roe v Wade on Indigenous peoples specifically, when it comes to the different laws that impact abortion access. Charlie also talked about needing more inclusivity and representation for queer Indigenous people in media, what it's like navigating trans communities as an Indigenous trans person, and how that can sometimes be alienating because they don't always fit in any one box. I really enjoyed this chat because I just learned so much from Charlie.
As usual, you can find more info and links to everything that we talked about in this episode in the shownotes which are over at doingitpodcast.co.uk. And please let us know what you think over on Instagram: you can join in the conversation there at @doingitpodcast. And if you liked this episode, please give us a rating and review over on iTunes and Spotify. It's really appreciated and really helps us out.
And you can also support the podcast over on patreon.com/hannahwitton, where you can also find a bonus episode recorded right after this one with me and my producer Mia discussing all of our thoughts in a little Patreon exclusive series called So... How Was That for You? Thank you so much to our patrons who support the show. And I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. Here is my conversation with Charlie.
Hello Charlie, welcome to Doing It. lovely to have you here. How are you?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Hi, Hannah. I'm well. A little bit sleepy but other than that, doing great. Yourself?
Hannah Witton
I'm also quite sleepy. But this is evening time for me. So my sleep is not that far ahead of me. It is in sight. But yeah, I'm really excited to have you on the podcast. We have talked to loads of different people with all sorts of different identities on this podcast. We've also talked to many different trans people on the podcast, but I don't think we've ever had someone who's got an Indigenous background. And so I really appreciate your time and getting to know you a bit better. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like growing up in Navajo Nation and like what that is for people who might not know?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Yeah, so for those who don't know, the Navajo Nation is about the size of West Virginia, which is a state within the US Empire. I think the Navajo Nation in terms of those of your European audiences, it's about the size of Ireland. A little bit bigger, maybe.
Hannah Witton
Okay.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
So very large landmass, large community of Natives, I think - and growing up, I like to tell people that like I didn't know that I was a minority in terms of racial and ethnic background until I left the Navajo Nation to go off to college.
Hannah Witton
Oh wow, yeah.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
So I grew up with a majority Native Navajo community. I went to - all of my leaders, bosses, supervisors, a large number of my teachers were all Navajo or Diné. I think the one exception is that our healthcare system was primarily white, and non Native doctors. And so growing up like I was surrounded a lot by people within my community, people who looked like me, people who pretty much are me in terms of ethnic and racial backgrounds. But I think in terms of like queer and trans representation, that was definitely lacking. As far as I know, there was very few queer and trans relatives and friends that I had growing up with. And so a lot of like my queer and trans understanding of self developed through media, even though even that was even like not enough. Books and fiction - books, stories about queer and trans people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, um, I was gonna ask about like how you came to identify as queer and trans. And I think, a lot of the time in the work that I do when we also when we talk specifically about like decolonizing, gender and sexuality, there's often a lot of like, "Well, before settler colonialism, Indigenous groups had a more fluid idea of gender and sexuality." So it's interesting to me to hear you say that actually you didn't get a lot of that in your community. But is that, obviously, because of settler colonialism? And so, like, what was that journey like, for you?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Yeah, so it definitely is because settler colonialism that there's not as much stories representation about queer and trans Indigenous peoples. Particularly within my community, there's not that much. Which is always a surprise when people tell me about how Indigenous communities are so inclusive and intentional. And I like to remind people, I was like, "Okay, but where are they? Where exactly are those communities that you're talking to or referring to?" Because in my community, like, although yes, we probably did have, at one point, were very much inclusive and intentional about ourselves and our communities and our families, as of right now in the 21st century, like, not so much. I think one of the biggest things that people are surprised is I tell them, I was like, "Yeah, if you work for the Navajo Nation, you can technically get fired for being Two Spirit or LGBTQ+."
Hannah Witton
Oh!
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Like there's no sort of like statement that - yeah, there's no anti discrimination policy or practice with the Navajo Nation. Not to mention the Navajo Nation doesn't recognise marriage equality.
Hannah Witton
Right!
Charlie Amáyá Scott
So although yes, US Empire does have this general statement for marriage equality, the Navajo Nation as a sovereign nation does not. Although yes, there are people who are working on it, as it currently stands, marriage is only recognised between a man and a woman on the Navajo Nation. So you start to see that there's the sort of instances where like that narrative of how like Indigenous peoples were always inclusive is not necessarily true as it is today. And so for me, a lot of like my own beginning, my own becoming, is rooted in sort of trying to disrupt and sort of critique how has settler colonialism affected my community in particularly, and the communities of other Indigenous peoples. So in what ways we were celebrated and in what ways was our [inaudible] supported?
Hannah Witton
Yeah. And is that kind of the stuff that you do in - like, because you have your academic work as a scholar, and then also on social media in terms of like educating and empowering others? And is that would you say, like your mission?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
I don't know about mission, I would say intention, but it is a mixture of both, both within my own academic work as a scholar, but also in community with other queer and trans Indigenous peoples,. Like, I think at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, back in 2021, that particular year, I would have weekly sessions with queer and trans friends. And a lot of times we would have these questions, we were like, "What exactly does it mean to be Two Spirit? What are some of the issues that our communities are facing? How exactly can we support and hold each other in our own narratives? And also, how exactly do we reclaim narratives that were denied to us? So what narratives can we write about queer and trans Indigenous peoples that celebrates who we are, that honours who we were, but also allows us to be whoever we want to be in the future?"
Hannah Witton
Yeah, exactly. Like, have those histories there, but also, how does this apply to you and your peers and how you're living your lives now? What is Two Spirit then? Because I feel like this is something that I've heard. It's often kind of talked about as coming under the like trans and non binary umbrella. But it is specific to Indigenous people. So can you explain a bit?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Yeah, so I actually have a sick time correcting a lot of what people think Two Spirit is because, oh, I always tell people it does not mean being queer or trans or being part of the LGBTQ+ community, like Two spirit is its own identity, its own formation, its own sort of movement.
Hannah Witton
Right.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
And what I mean by that, so it's a particular phrase that was coined in the 1990s. It was sort of - it's from a translated Anishinaabemowin word. And it was sort oof dreamed. It was dreamt about, actually. And it was shared with a community of LGBTQ, trans - not trans - LGBTQ Native folks, I believe at some sort of powwow, I'm not exactly - I can't remember the exact location. But it was shared by Dr. Myra Laramee, a sort of elder from the Fisher River Cree Nation. And I often tell people that what it means to be Two Spirit - as someone who is not a Two Spirit, so my understanding is coming from shared conversations, shared narratives, with people who are Two Spirit. And what I've sort of come to and understanding is that Two Spirit is a homecoming. And what that means is that it's an identity that reclaims who people are, who they were, it reclaims positions and responsibilities that had been denied to so many Native Indigenous people. And Two Spirit people, they can be queer and trans, but not necessarily not always queer and trans, or part of the LGBTQ community in general. So again, it's like its own - it's not necessarily its own separate identity, but rather, it's a sort of movement/homecoming, like I said before, for Indigenous people to sort of come to, to sort of bring forth what has been known as gender, what has been known as sexuality, that were very unique to Indigenous communities within the Western Hemisphere.
Actually, there was a question that I got about like someone saying, like, "I'm like Indigenous in this community." And it was somewhere around Europe, Russia, or Africa. And they asked - or another part of that world -and they asked, "Can I claim Two Spirit?" And I would say, "Not necessarily." Because the way that Two Spirit came about, it was really rooted in a sort of connection, intimacy, to this particular land and place within the empires of North America. So Canada, the United States, and Mexico. So there's a sort of movement and birth here from Two Spirit that I think is very unique and distinct, but also has its own history as well.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. This is probably going to sound like just a really ignorant question. But I guess it's just like me trying to wrap my head around something that is like different to my experience, but like, who - who is Two Spirit? So is it something that you just are? Is it something that - because you know how you said it's like a homecoming, is it something that you like, it's a journey, and you become? Like, I think I'm trying to wrap my head around that.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
It's both. I mean, Hannah, when you come into - for example, when you come into your womanhood - and I'm assuming you're a woman.
Hannah Witton
I am a woman.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
You've always known that you're a woman, but also you're on this journey of trying to understand - understanding what womanhood means to you.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
And I would say the same thing is very much for Two Spirit people. They've always known who they are. And for them, it's a journey of not necessarily rediscovering, but reclaiming who they are, trying to understand who they were, but also deciding what kind of person they will be. So it's very similar, I think, to any other identity when it comes to - when it comes to racial, ethnic, gender, sexuality, etc.
Hannah Witton
Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wanted to ask, because you mentioned about how in terms of like the doctors and the healthcare in Navajo Nation from your experience, a lot of them were white. And what, I guess, in current present day is the situation with access to healthcare, especially like sexual health services if you live in Navajo Nation or different Indigenous community? And I also ask this very much in relation to Roe v Wade, because I remember seeing like when that got - not repealed? Is repealed the right word? When the Supreme Court was like, "No."
Charlie Amáyá Scott
I think "overturned" is the correct phrase, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Overturned, yes, overturned. That's the word I was looking for. A lot of people were saying this is going to disproportionately affect Black and Indigenous people who can get pregnant in the US. So can you explain a bit about that in terms of like access to healthcare, and why the overturning of Roe v. Wade, will affect Indigenous people more in that case?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Yes. So how to explain this. So healthcare actually, for Indigenous peoples is very unique and different from I think healthcare, from what I understand of the US Empire, or healthcare within the United Kingdom, or healthcare, I think, anywhere. So our health care for a lot of Native nations is funded and provided through the US government because of our treaty relationships that we have. Right. So what we call them is called Indian Health Service.
Hannah Witton
No one's decided to rename that?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
As far I as know - no. Well, that's, I mean, that's like a whole other conversation too, Hannah, about Indian Health Service. So because of our treaty relationship, because of the sort of contract that the US government has with Native nations, because we're referred to as Indian, it has to sort of stay the same when it comes to these types of services. But I agree, the name change for that should happen.
But going back to your question about abortion, the reason why it would disproportionately affect Indigenous peoples is because a significant number of Indigenous peoples do live within their homelands, do live near Native nations and often get their healthcare through the Indian Health Service. And so because this is a federally funded programme, the overturn of Roe vs. Wade, did unfortunately affect what type of access to abortion is provided to Native Indigenous peoples throughout the United States.
Hannah Witton
Yes!
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Yeah. So because it's not federally allowed, it wasn't - well, because the Supreme Court overturned it, so that means in order for it to be reaffirmed, the president of the US Empire would have to sort of like affirm that abortion is medically necessary and part of reproductive rights. As far as I could tell, I'm not largely part of this conversation, because of like how complicated and niche it really gets, because not only do you have to understand healthcare policies and practices, you also have to understand how exactly does sovereignty and tribal law come into this.
Hannah Witton
There's many layers there, but that's so interesting, because I didn't know that about how healthcare worked. And that makes sense. Because if it was overturned by the Supreme Court, a lot of people saying "Well, you can still fight it at state level." But and that's not the case for like Indigenous people who have this treaty with the federal government.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Yeah. Which is, which is like another interesting question, because we're also getting to another expansion of this law is actually the Indian Child Welfare Act, which also was getting into that sort of movement of state law versus federal law. And so Native Indigenous peoples within the US Empire are like in this like weird zone of like, yes, we're tribal citizens of our Native nations. We're also US citizens. But we're also have to adhere to state, local, and federal laws. So what does this mean for us in the grand scheme of things? It's gets really messy and complicated, and I don't think many people who are not Native can fully grasp the kinds of implications that law and policies have on Indigenous peoples.
Hannah Witton
Because don't a lot of Native nations, they span across multiple state lines, don't they?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
They do. One example is my own nation, the Navajo Nation. We have - our nation expands into what is now known as Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. And those three states all have different policies and practices.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, I've been to Navajo Nation.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
I hope you enjoyed it.
Hannah Witton
I did! Is - let me get this right - is Navajo Nation, is that where Monument Valley is?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
It is, yeah. Where Utah is, that is - that it would be part of the Navajo Nation. Yes. Monument Valley.
Hannah Witton
There you go.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Beautiful place. I went there with my grandmother and she just loves it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it was gorgeous. One thing that I've been picking up on is that you've been saying US Empire. And one, I love it. And two, why? Like what is the intention there with calling the United States "the US Empire."
Charlie Amáyá Scott
So my intention in calling the United States as the US Empire is to really sort of like get people to recognise and realise that the United States is not just the 50 states. We have - the US military occupies different territories and nations across the world. And it really does sort of act as a empire with its sort of imperialistic intentions and regimes. I mean, like, if we think about the way the US has pretty much involved itself in wars when it shouldn't have to, and in the way it sort of, like, you know, argues that we need to defend democracy, I really do think those are the intentions of an empire happening. And I always like to tell people, I was like, "Think of like Star Wars." Becuase you know how like Palpatine was all about being democratic, and you know, is like, you know, "Blame the Jedis that we need to defend democracy," and how, like, you know, "The Galactic Republic will now be known as the Galactic Empire." That sort of thing. Like, I really do - like, that's how I would try to explain to people like what I mean by empire, like think Star Wars.
Hannah Witton
And, and even whilst like the Empire was in place, and Palpatine is in control, he still had the Senate, and he still kind of like, you know, there was a little bit of a sprinkling of a delusion of democracy.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Oh, my God, I love this, just like, just compare the US to the Empire in Star Wars. Excellent. I really wanted to ask, as well, about - cuz I was on your Instagram. And this also kind of relates to all of these like systems and the politicking of it all as well. This will have passed by the time this episode comes out, but you were encouraging your trans and queer followers to fill out this Trans Survey. And also, recently, in the UK, we had our census, and I believe - which is done every 10 years - and like for the first time, it actually had questions about sex assigned at birth and gender identity. And that I remember there being like this really big push of like, fill it out, be seen, be counted. And yeah, I just wanted to ask about that. And like, why is it important? What is this US Trans Survey that is happening? And kind of like what are your - what are your hopes for what it would bring?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
So I don't know when this episode is airing, but the survey actually expanded to accepting responses until I think early December,
Hannah Witton
Oh, okay, I think it might have passed.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
And the importance of the US Trans Survey really is because, unfortunately, data drives policy and decisions. It also informs research and scholarship within the academic system of not only, I think, America's college system, but also that of your system and other sorts of college systems across the world. And so the survey is so important to gather data, to gather knowledge and information about the current climate about trans people across the US Empire. What are the issues that we are worried about? What are the issues that we are experiencing? What are the issues are we focused on? But also like also to show like how many queer and trans people there are. How many of them, what are they talking about? Because this survey, the last time the survey was done was back, I believe, in 2015. So about, like, seven-ish years ago.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Wow.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
And I just heard that at the time, that survey only received about like, I think 15, 12,000 responses, something, it was like a low number. But this year's survey with the help of so many influencers, organisations, partnerships, they have tripled, quadrupled that number to about like 50,000ish responded to the survey.
Hannah Witton
Amazing.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
And what I really like about this -
Hannah Witton
That's a lot of data.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
- is that, one, it's a lot of data. Yeah, it's a lot of data, data. Sorry. I don't know how to pronounce English words sometimes. But that's, that's a lot of data, data. But also what I did - what I do appreciate about the US Trans Survey is they also sort of aggregate that data data to different ethnic and racial groups. So like, for Native Indigenous people, we will have our own sort of like US Trans-focused Survey on us, which is what I really drew on when it came to talking about statistics, when it came to learning more about my community and the the issues we face. I did draw heavily a lot on that 2015 publication, Native trans people.
Hannah Witton
Yeah. Oh, that's so great. Because like when you can get specific like that, especially in terms of like intersecting identities, hopefully that's where you can really start to address those things. Things that need addressing.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
What are those things for you? A kind of like two sides of the coin question here, like, one, at the intersection of your identities as an Indigenous person and being queer and trans, like, what are the kind of really urgent things that you want people and organisations to be working on to make your life and other people's lives of similar identities easier and better? But then also, what brings you joy about having those identities?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
This is a two coin question, because they require two different responses.
Hannah Witton
Yeah.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Okay, the first one. The first one about what I want people to sort of know more about when it comes to Indigenous queer and trans people. I think it's just like, one, we are alive and we are plentiful. The way we understand ourselves and our relationship with gender and sexuality is, I think, very unique and different from a lot of like, white trans and queer folks, and even a lot of like Bllack queer and trans folks, because of the way that colonisation, white supremacy, and enslavement have all affected us. And it has really sort of like influenced how we understand ourselves in relation to each other. So definitely, I think there needs to be more nuanced conversations about identity when it comes to queer and trans communities as well as when it becomes to Indigeneity, and Blackness, all those together.
I think another thing is that we know who we are. We understand the things that we need to take care of, the type of conversations we need to have with our community members. And I think people need to let us handle that. I think it's really - it's always a little bit awkward when people outside my community call out like a Native creator for being homophobic or trans and misogynistic, and I'm just like, "Okay, like, I know, like what you're trying to get at, but I - like I can have that conversation with them with a lot more nuance than you. Because like you as like - if we're doing a dynamic stuff like a white brown person - like a white queer person having and calling out a brown cis man, that can be a little bit awkward, because of the type of violence that is recycled, the type of systems that can be used to disadvantage or advantage one another, like, but like when it comes to like me having a conversation, it will be a little bit different about that.
And then another thing is that I think our narratives and our stories are very unique and beautiful. They also highlight new ways of what it means to be Native within the 21st century. I think for so long, people have relied upon these archaic caricatures and stereotypes of what it means to be a Native man, or what it means to be a Native woman. And they use those caricatures and stereotypes to inform the type of representation that we are getting about Native Indigenous people. Like yes, it's great that we have shows like Reservation Dogs, like Rutherford Falls, or movies like Prey with like Native representation at the forefront. But when you don't have queer and trans Native people integrated into your narratives, who are in the writers room, or who are directing these films, then it can also sort of reinforce these harmful narratives around cisheteronormativity with a hint of Indigeneity. And even that can be very violent to a lot of people, and so queer and trans Native people are able to challenge settler colonialism in a very unique way that I don't think cis heterosexual Native folks can.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
And to answer your other question about the joy -
Hannah Witton
The joy!
Charlie Amáyá Scott
- of what it means to be Indigenous, queer, and trans, the joy, it actually is that. It's the fact that we're able to see and experience this world a little bit differently than other people. We're able to understand and these very complex conversations, nuances, of what it means to be Indigenous within the 21st century. And because we're queer and trans, we're also able to challenge, one, about issues around the body, issues around womanhood, we're able to address toxic masculinity in a way that brings forth new understandings of what it means to be in this world. And a lot of times people do that through poetry, through stories. Like I love reading books and fiction and poetry written by either Two Spirit, trans women, or queer Native men. Because in these different stories and variations, you start to see a very intimate and personal relationship to self, to land, to family, to kin, that unfortunately is missing because of settler colonisation. Also a lot of us just look so great in fashion.
Hannah Witton
But the fashion is a huge part of it, because I think one of my first encounters with understanding cultural appropriation was like Urban Outfitters, when they did like, I think, wasn't their whole collection called like Navajo as well, or something? That was maybe like, a decade ago or something. But that was my first like remembering this moment of like this huge backlash against them for appropriating Navajo dress and fashion, And yeah, yeah, the fashion is definitely a huge part of that.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
So I've got some questions from folks on Instagram, that I would love to ask you. Somebody has said: how does being Indigenous impact your experience of being trans and vice versa?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
I think - so what I have noticed is that brands, partnerships, social media platforms never know where to place me. Like, for example, its Native Heritage Month.
Hannah Witton
Oh!
Charlie Amáyá Scott
And like, everyone goes after all of like the cis hetero Natives, to, you know, do content. And then in Pride month, people always go after the queer trans folks who are not Native. And so I'm in like, this weird space where like, I'm Native, queer, and trans, like, how exactly can I be involved? Or I would even, like, invite people to be like, hey, like, if I want to do a campaign, I was like, "I know some, like really great queer and trans Natives, that you can invite who'd be amazing." And so it's, I think, like, the way it happens is like people have tried to put me in a box, but they have such a hard time trying to constrain me in it just because of being Indigenous and trans. And because I have such a unique relationship to the trans community, it's a little different. And what I mean by that, like, for example, I have never - I don't intend to medically transition. So like, oftentimes, my transness is questioned and critiqued. Or there's moments where just like, people don't - the way we have conversations around trans issues, I always bring a sort of nuance to those conversations when it comes to my Indigeneity that often challenges what trans people already think. And so it's like this, like - it's both beautiful, but also, it's also like, people are just a little just like, "We don't know what to do with you."
Hannah Witton
It's just the ultimate like you don't fit in a binary box. And the world is set up with all of these different binaries, like you're either queer and trans or Indigenous, you can't be both. Or like, and if you are trans, you have to, you know, you have to go through like a medical transition. You have to be like a binary trans person for us to kind of like, understand, but obviously, there's like a huge spectrum. Yeah. And then people are like, "What do we do with you if don't fit into any of our boxes?"
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Let's just eradicate all these little boxes, shall we?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly. And it's not just from non Natives. I also get it from my own community as well with their transmisogyny. So it's just like, you know what, I'm just trying to enjoy this book, or this movie. And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to fight or have a conversation with you right now.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, but ultimately, like, isn't that what life is about? It's like, you want to enjoy life and the simple pleasures, and yet oppression and prejudice just keeps getting in the way.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Unfortunately, yeah. Like for example, I'm just trying to - I'm just trying to go to the store, get some food, and I may wear like an amazing coat or a jacket that isn't sort of gender-conforming, but like, you know, I have to deal with the transmisogyny because with the glares and the disrespect, and I'm just like, "Y'all, I just came here to get popcorn."
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that I mean, that is really the trans agenda, isn't it? Just like wanting to go get popcorn in a really epic coat.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly.
Hannah Witton
Somebody else on Instagram has asked: what is one thing you would most like the cis white masses to understand about you?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
The cis white masses. Oh my goodness. First off, I love that phrase. Second, I think I want them to know that they don't always have to be the centre of attention. That it's okay to be the middle child.
Hannah Witton
Aw.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
I'm sorry to all the middle children out there. I don't know if it's clear or apparent, but I'm the eldest. So I am the firstborn.
Hannah Witton
Me too. Me too. That's why I host the podcast.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
But a little bit of seriousness, like, I think cis white narratives are overdone. There's so many of them. And I think the centre of attention needs to be removed from them because like, let's be honest, there is not enough nuance. There's not enough investment in these narratives. But when it comes to queer and trans Black, Indigenous people of colour, there's so much that is celebrated. There's so much that can be shared in terms of knowledge and herstory. And I think it's beautiful that we're so willing to give it, we're so willing to share it. All we need folks is to just listen a little bit better. So yeah, that's what I would tell the cis white mass,
Hannah Witton
Just like, "Please remove the spotlight. We're done here."
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly. Or sharing the spotlight, you can keep it
Hannah Witton
Just make room for everybody! Somebody has asked: what is the best thing a non Native teacher can do to help the effort?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
I think with a non Native teacher, you really have to go beyond a simple Google search, like go beyond that first line in a Google search. And you need to sort of like look over the materials. And you also want to compare those materials to the other materials that you're able to find. Because I think a lot of people stop at like just one or two first readings. But like look at who are they citing? Who exactly is being given a platform? And see what else is there. Because something I have learned in academia is that who you cite matters. Who you state, who you reference matters in terms of like where you're getting your knowledge, where exactly are you going with your paper? But also, like you're also referring to a legacy of work that's already been done. And so definitely go beyond that first page on Google search and go a little bit more. And I always like - I don't have anything on my website about curriculum. But I know that there's some folks who do, so see what they have. And like I said, compare it with others, and what has been shared before.
Hannah Witton
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's great advice in general, when it comes to research.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly. And I was gonna say TLDR: diverse your sources? Diversify. It's okay. And not everyone's going to agree.
Hannah Witton
That is true. And not every Indigenous person is going to agree with every Indigenous person as well. And like, not every trans person is going to agree with every trans person. I think that's also important to remember.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Exactly. That's the beauty of life is disagreement. Conflict. But also like, you know, resolving it.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, it's the difference - celebrating difference with and without judgement. That's kind of how I think about it as well. It's like having all of these differing opinions, but there not being judgement or prejudice or hate in them. Now, that's getting much broader, but somebody has asked: how do you balance being part of so many groups/identities that all have different things that they're advocating for? And how do you have energy to dedicate to all of them?
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Oh, wow, now that's a question. I would say is that I find a thread that connects all the issues together. And I focus on that one thread, and I try to figure out how exactly is it all connected? And how exactly does this one thread affect all the other threads? And I don't know about time. I feel like, you know, as someone who has to deal with a lot of different social issues, different incidents of violence, I need to be well prepared and well informed just for my own survival, so it's not necessary that I want to do all this work, it's because I have to do all this work. I have to know how everything connects. And I have to know how it's going to affect me and my communities.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, that's, that's so interesting that it's like a survival thing. And like, knowledge is power. Knowledge is armour, as well.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Just a bit, yeah.
Hannah Witton
Well, Charlie, thank you so much. I've had such a great time talking to you and feel like I've learned so much. Where can people find more of you and all of your work? Please like plug away all of your different social media and your website and things.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Yes. Well, first off, thank you so much, Hannah, for having me. I was not expecting to laugh so much in this conversation. And I really do appreciate it.
Hannah Witton
Oh, I'm glad!
Charlie Amáyá Scott
Because like I believe that laughter and joy are really powerful tools for resistance and refusals against systems that try to contain and constrain us.
Hannah Witton
100%.
Charlie Amáyá Scott
But folks can find me find me at dineaesthetics or dineaesthetics on Instagram or TikTok. I also have a personal blog that I'm still trying to work out at dineaesthetics.com. And for as long Twitter will survive, I'm also there @grandmasaidno.
Hannah Witton
Yeah, we'll see. This episode is coming out like quite a way into the future from when we were recording it. So it's gonna be a real interesting time capsule for that Twitter. We'll see. Well, Charlie, thank you so much again, and thank you all so much for listening. Goodbye!